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  • File :1200564599.jpg-(169 KB, 478x846, Yuyuko Power.jpg)
    169 KB Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)05:09 No.1027569  
    >IRON HEART SURGE
    >Iron Heart
    >Level: Warblade 3
    >Prerequisite: One Iron Heart maneuver
    >Initiation Action: 1 standard action
    >Range: Personal
    >Target: You
    >Duration: See text

    >Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

    ITT, we have fun abusing the vague wording of Iron Heart Surge. I know it's been done on the WotC boards a lot, but it's about time that /tg/ has a crack at it.

    • Many weather effects impose conditions or effects on you. For example, a hurricane imposes the blown-away condition on Medium or smaller creatures, and a thunderstorm has the effect of giving a -4 penalty on Spot and Search checks due to the rain. You can use IHS to end the bad weather.

    • Being outdoors out at night gives you either concealment (for shadowy illumination) or total concealment (for complete darkness), both of which are effects. You can use IHS to end the night and presumably make the sun come up so that it's not dark any more.

    • Gravity is listed down as a planar trait that has an effect on all creatures within the plane. You can use IHS to eradicate gravity from the plane.

    • From a practical viewpoint, IHS gives you a 100% chance of busting down, say, an Antimagic Field or a Forcecage. The funny thing is that it can't save you from charm/domination or dazing/paralysis/sleep/stunning, which are ironically the most common cinematic tropes when it comes to overcoming debilitations through sheer willpower.

    So, /tg/, what else can we do with Iron Heart Surge?
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)05:10 No.1027575
    Dragonfear- wait, do they even have dragonfear anymore?
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)05:11 No.1027577
    Go to space.

    Say, "Fuck you lack of oxygen."

    Become Batman.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)05:13 No.1027581
    You use IHS to end the effect of "not being Pun-Pun."
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)05:15 No.1027587
    IRON HEART SURGE IS MORE POWERFUL THAN WISH/MIRACLE. PROVE ME WRONG.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)05:16 No.1027591
    Tricky one this... Depends on whether or not it needs to be defined in the rules as an effect or condition or whatever.

    But I'd say the biggest one would be a greater wish that effects the world around you.

    Saying, "Fuck your reality" and have everything go back to normal.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)05:22 No.1027609
    >>1027569
    Aside from all the other things you got wrong in that post, this:

    >>charm/domination or dazing/paralysis/sleep/stunning

    Is at least partly wrong.

    You can use Iron heart Surge to overcome Paralysis(being that it's a purely mental action) and, I'd assume, Charm(though you would have to be convinced that you were being manipulated).
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)05:24 No.1027620
    Don't you mean AYAN HAATO SAAJU (アヤン・ハート・サージュ)?
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)05:29 No.1027635
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    >>1027609

    >You can use Iron heart Surge to overcome Paralysis(being that it's a purely mental action)

    The FAQ says that you need to be able to move to use a maneuver. Paralysis makes you unable to move.

    >Charm(though you would have to be convinced that you were being manipulated).

    This is kind of iffy, since you wouldn't necessarily be completely under the caster's control, but you would need a reason to break free from the control of a "trusted friend and ally".
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)05:30 No.1027638
    Death is a condition that lasts more than one round, though that is fairly common cinematically anyway.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)05:31 No.1027643
    Being Human (or any other race) is a condition that lasts 1 or more rounds. Iron Heart Surge to end the effect of being human.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)05:31 No.1027644
    Anyone with Iron Heart Surge needs never sleep, eat, or drink. Hell, he doesn't even have to feel depressed- he just pops the Iron surge and then BOOYA I'M FUCKING HAPPY.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)05:34 No.1027649
    >>1027635
    >>The FAQ says that you need to be able to move to use a maneuver. Paralysis makes you unable to move.

    That's seems dumb to me, as no movement would be necessary to think really hard at whatever ailment you were aiming to elmeminate, but that is indeed what ToB says, so, my mistake then.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)05:36 No.1027651
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    >>1027635

    Turns out that even page 38 of the ToB, right under Initiating Maneuvers and Stances, says that you need to be able to move to initiate a maneuver or stance.

    >>1027638

    Although being unconscious/dead is listed down as a condition, you cannot move while unconscious/dead, so you cannot initiate any maneuvers or stances.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)05:45 No.1027671
    I've always found it funny that Iron Heart Surge lets you abolish even area-of-effect spells or effects. I mean, you're using your own mental fortitude to bypass something yourself, how the hell are you ending that Cloudkill for the whole party?
    >> Paorou-sama !jXvdPmWDes 01/17/08(Thu)05:57 No.1027701
    This is like... Guts and Effort in drug/pill form.

    It's so horrendously awesome!
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)06:01 No.1027713
    >>1027701
    Actually, an ability. But yes, if /m/ were to make a DnD character, it would have this ability.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)06:07 No.1027723
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    While it may not be the most RAW thing ever, being pregnant could be considered an effect or condition that lasts for 1 or more rounds, so it might just be possible to give yourself an abortion using Iron Heart Surge.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)06:07 No.1027726
    >>1027723
    And you get a bonus to hit someone because of it. "Sorry fetus, but momma REALLY has to hit this next kobold *SURGE* *Squelch*"
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)06:10 No.1027738
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    >>1027726

    A MORALE bonus at that, because it's really uplifting and all.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)06:12 No.1027745
    >>1027671
    By being GAR. Duh.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)06:15 No.1027753
    >>1027738
    "I just squeezed out a fetus from sheer force of will! FUCK YEAH"
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)06:16 No.1027756
    >>1027723
    >>1027726
    >>1027738
    >>1027753

    Well done guys, you just made a /b/tard feel physically ill.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)06:19 No.1027761
    >>1027756
    Ah, /b/, how you have fallen...
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)06:25 No.1027781
    Being swallowed is an effect, which means you can IHS your way out of the Tarrasque's stomach with ease.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)06:30 No.1027795
    It would be awesome if we had IHS in real-life. I have uncurable terminal cancer? IRON HEART SURGE.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)06:40 No.1027824
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    Time and space are listed down as planar traits, and planar traits have an effect on everyone and everything in the plane. Yes, you can in fact use Iron Heart Surge to end time or space. What happens after that is totally up to DM fiat.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)06:44 No.1027839
    >>1027824
    Best way to go out before dying. If you're going to kick the bucket, might as well bring down everyone with you in the biggest division by 0 that the cosmos has ever seen.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)06:49 No.1027854
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    Someone using Iron Heart Surge to be God is just Yukari using her boundary manipulation. IHS requires you to bullshit your way to saying that there's something affecting you, while Yukari has to bullshit her way to saying that there's a boundary between X and Y. Both result in ultimate hax power.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)07:02 No.1027892
    >>1027651

    >Although being unconscious/dead is listed down as a condition, you cannot move while unconscious/dead, so you cannot initiate any maneuvers or stances.

    Weekend at Bernie's says otherwise.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)07:16 No.1027923
    >>1027824
    IRON HEART FUCKING SURGE: More powerful than God.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)07:18 No.1027928
    You can get IHS by level 5, right? We've got the ultimate Pun-Pun foil (well maybe not the Pazuzu version), we just need to get a level 5 Warblade to IHS time/space and end the universe before Pun-Pun's ascension.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)07:31 No.1027949
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    Note that you can actually end an Elder Evil's malefic property through the use of Iron Heart Surge, so you can stop Atropus' negative energy schtick or the Hulks' nerd rage with a single standard action. However, malefic properties might be generated every round. In that case, all you need is two 5th-level warblades to keep up a constant stream of Iron Heart Surges in order to constantly nullify an Elder Evil's malefic property.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)07:45 No.1027970
    Could "living" being considered an effect, and thusly removed turn you into an undead of some sort? Would be a much cheaper way of becoming a lich, or a master-free way of becoming a vampire ...
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)07:49 No.1027974
    >>1027970
    I dunno. It's creature type-dependent, not effect-dependent. Undead is a type, for example.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)07:54 No.1027977
    DM: "An evil demilich has cast an epic spell to engulf the world in an eternal ice age. You must set ou--"
    Player: "I use Iron Heart Surge and end the harsh weather."
    DM: "... rocks fall."
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)08:22 No.1028006
    The effect "not currently piercing the heavens" is affecting me. I activate Iron Heart Surge to rectify that.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)08:35 No.1028029
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    >>1028006
    OH YEEEEEEEEEAH!

    KICK IT TO THE CURB!
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)08:38 No.1028037
    One I saw on the Wizards boards.

    Sunlight is an effect lasting 1 or more rounds, especially if yo are an Orc or Drow or something. Therefore, Iron Heart Sure the sun away. Eternal winter.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)08:39 No.1028038
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    You can also use Iron Heart Surge to remove planar traits. Going to the Elemental Plane of Fire and you don't like the heat? Iron Heart Surge, motherfucker, there ain't no flames any more.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)08:42 No.1028044
    >>1028006
    >>1028029

    Clearly, Simon had Iron Heart Surge during GUrren Lagann. That is how he managed to win over the Anti-Spirals.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)08:43 No.1028046
    >>1028038
    >>1028037
    >>1027977
    >>1027671
    I think it's supposed to me it ends the effects for YOU, not everyone.
    IE: You take no damage from fire in elemental plane of fire, but the flames are still there, or the cloudkill is still there, it's just you remain unaffected.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)08:44 No.1028051
    >>1028046

    That's not what it says. It says "the effect ends immediately." Nothing about it ending FOR YOU or whatever. So yeah, enjoy God Mode for D&D.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)08:44 No.1028052
    Can you use IHS to escape a grapple?
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)08:46 No.1028053
    >>1028051
    ugh, I just finished making my new DnD character and chose this ability, I had no idea it was this powerful until I saw this thread today.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)08:52 No.1028059
         File :1200577921.jpg-(172 KB, 700x600, Sikieiki Komachi Suplex.jpg)
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    >>1028051

    Yeah, I guess so, since grappling is an effect. You can't do it while pinned though, since you need to be able to move to initiate a maneuver or stance.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)08:56 No.1028066
    >>1027928
    Too late. Pun-Pun exists in all possible dimensions.
    >>1027977
    Please reclaim your prize of 3 entire internets at the nearest internet dispenser!
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)08:59 No.1028081
    >>1028051
    >>"the effect ends immediately."
    it's supposed to end one single effect, Elemental planes and atmospheric conditions being continued you probably get to survive as long as the surge is in effect but afterwards you take the full effect. It's like someone is constantly raining effect spells on you, the surge doesn't kill the spellcaster.
    It was good topic for a laugh, though.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)09:06 No.1028095
    >>1028081
    What part of "the effect ends immediately" do you not understand? The FAQ even says it can bring down permanent effects (but not instantaneous effects).
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)09:08 No.1028101
    >>1028095
    can you understand the basic concepts of "cause" and "effect"? Because, as much as this is funny, you're obviously mistaking the two.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)09:10 No.1028107
    >>1028101
    What are you trying to get at? That Iron Heart Surge cannot end an effect such as the heat of the Elemental Plane of Fire? It makes perfect sense: the heat is a permanent effect due to the nature of the EPoF, not an instantaneous effect, so it can be IHSed.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)09:28 No.1028145
    >>1028107
    The 'permanent' refers to an effect that once 'activated' last indefinetly, not something which is -always- active like an elemental plane.
    God, are you that dense?
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)09:32 No.1028155
    >>1028101
    In D&D, "effect" just refers to something that has a gameplay impact on something else within the game. It may also include the cause.

    For example, Antimagic Field is an effect that disables all supernatural and magical abilities while inside the area of the spell. In real-life logic, the AMF spell would be the cause, and the disabling of all supernatural/magical abilities is the effect. In D&D terminology though, the entirety of the AMF is the effect.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)09:32 No.1028157
    >>1028145

    Hmm. You might have something there. Stuff like gravitic traits and the heat on the Plane of Fire don't actually have a duration.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)09:35 No.1028164
    >>1028145
    An elemental plane's properties aren't instantaneous, that's for sure. It's an always-active effect, and the closest thing that can come to that is a permanent effect. When the elemental planes were created, they were "activated" and the permanent effects of their planar traits kicked in.

    Got that?
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)09:36 No.1028167
    >>1028164

    The planes don't work like that.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)09:37 No.1028170
    >>1028157
    They don't have a duration. They have always been like that and they will always be like that. Thus, a permanent duration.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)09:38 No.1028171
    >>1028170

    Put point out in RAW where it says they have a duration.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)09:41 No.1028176
    >>1028171
    Do you not know what "PERMANENT" means?

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/permanent
    >1. existing perpetually; everlasting, esp. without significant change.
    >2. intended to exist or function for a long, indefinite period without regard to unforeseeable conditions: a permanent employee; the permanent headquarters of the United Nations.
    >3. long-lasting or nonfading: permanent pleating; permanent ink.

    Is the Elemental Plane of Fire's heat existing perpetually and everlasting? Yes.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)09:43 No.1028184
    >>1028176

    Do you not know what RAW is?

    You're saying If A then B however nowhere in the rules does it state If A then B. That is entirely your interpretation of the rules.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)09:45 No.1028190
    >>1028176
    You can't point out a loophole of vague wording in an ability and then ignore a similar vague wording elsewhere in the rules just to make your first thing work.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)09:45 No.1028191
    ITT: Rules lawyers attack to try and spoil our fun
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)09:46 No.1028195
    >>1028176
    Wordplay is not how D&D works. Or else, you could just say permanent means infinite duration.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)09:48 No.1028200
    >>1028184
    Okay, let's get some things straight here. To be IHSed, something needs to:

    1. Be an effect.
    2. Have a duration of 1 or more rounds.

    Is a planar trait an effect? Yes, it has a gameplay impact and the players are not always subject to it throughout the entire game.
    Does a planar trait have a duration of 1 or more rounds? That's the thing. I'm saying "yes", because it would be a permanent effect for the plane.

    What is your grounds for refuting that a planar trait is not a permanent effect?
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)09:49 No.1028201
    >>1028200

    Planar effects do not have a duration.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)09:49 No.1028202
    >>1028191
    I, for one, wrote in every post that it was funny, as long as one acknowledges the joke was on the vague wording of the rules. Blame the fag who thinks his interpretation of a vague wording is the one possible one.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)09:50 No.1028203
    >>1028200
    >1. Be an effect that is currently affecting the user of IHS.

    Self-fixed.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)09:51 No.1028207
    >>1028202

    Hey don't get me wrong. You can still pull off some crazy shit with IHS like ending wishes and that. I'm just one of the anons stating that due to planar effects not having a stated duration they can't be ended by IHS.

    It's fun to bend the rules but you can't break them.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)09:52 No.1028212
    >>1028201
    Why would they not have a duration? They are effects that are always active, hence, they have a permanent duration.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)09:55 No.1028216
    >>1028212
    same reason an AMF is an effect and not a cause. It's the rules.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)09:55 No.1028217
    >>1028207
    >>I'm just one of the anons stating that due to planar effects not having a stated duration they can't be ended by IHS.

    I'm >>1028202 and I think that too. It was some other anon who said Planes can be IHSed
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)09:58 No.1028223
    >>1028212

    You just did it again.

    A= Planar effects are everpresent. This is clearly stated.
    B= Planar Effects have a permanent duration. This is not stated at all. Nowhere does it mention that Planer effects like gravity have a duration. Remember a duration is a clearly stated game statistic given the the info block for a spell or effect.

    You're saying A implies B. This is an assumption that YOU are making. No one else. Someone else can look at the rules and come up with a completely different conclusion. Your assumption is not in RAW therefore IHS going by RAW cannot end planar effects because they do not have a duration.

    If you want to make A implies B the rule for your game as a DM then that's fine. Rule 0 after all.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)10:00 No.1028230
    >>1028223
    is a terrible post by me with many typographical errors.

    >>1028223
    implies I need to learn to proofread.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)10:06 No.1028239
    >>Whole Thread
    NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERD RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)10:06 No.1028240
    Can it rid me of my virginity?
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)10:06 No.1028242
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    As the Anon that inadvertently derailed the thread into rules-lawyering faggotry by claiming that you can IHS the heat of the Elemental Plane of Fire, I'd just like to say that I was just poking at possible things you can do by fucking around with IHS. That's it, I wasn't being serious and I wasn't trying to be strictly RAW. Fuck, my first post isn't RAW at all. There's no official definition of what an "effect" is; there is no official way on how IHS "ends" the effect either. It's all purely speculation for the sake of fun, just like how a Sarrukh's Manipulate Form ability. The wording of IHS is so damn vague that everybody will have a different way of interpreting it, so there's no real RAW interpretation of it.

    Now can we please get this thread back into a light-hearted mood, such as by suggesting that you can IHS the effect of "not being in X location" to instantly teleport to that location?
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)10:09 No.1028245
    >>1028242
    Fuck you OP. I will not rest until these rules lawyers admit that planar effects have a duration however implicit and thus can be ended by IHS.

    LET LOOSE THE NERDS OF WAR!
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)10:12 No.1028249
    >>1028245
    how about no
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)10:20 No.1028267
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    >>1028249
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)10:22 No.1028276
    >>1028240
    Yes, once you declare that you IHS your virginity, all time freezes and SOMETHING rapes you. Once time restarts, you don't see anything, but you look down and you just KNOW that you've been raped and you just lost your virginity.
    >> El Nigre 01/17/08(Thu)10:23 No.1028281
    >>1027795
    I have to pay taxes? FUCKING IRON HEART SURGE
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)10:34 No.1028325
    Hey, a planet has a duration (a lifespan), right? FUCK YOU, EARTH, IRON HEART SURGE!
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)10:40 No.1028348
    Shouting out "IRON HEART SURGE" shounen-style has never been as awesome as right now.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)10:51 No.1028392
    Alright... lycanthropy is a disease with a presumably permanent duration. If I get bitten and turned into a werewolf, can I use IHS to return myself back to a non-werewolf?
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)10:55 No.1028407
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    >>1028392
    According to the FAQ, yes. IHS can remove a poison or disease that has afflicted you.

    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070426a

    >Q: Dear Sage,
    >What exactly can or can’t iron heart surge (Tome of Battle p68) remove?
    >--Franco

    >A: Instantaneous effects can’t be removed by iron heart surge. However, any effect with a duration of 1 or more rounds, including permanent-duration spells or effects, may be removed by iron heart surge, nor does iron heart surge restore damage or ability drain.

    >Iron heart surge doesn’t replace lost levels (though it would remove any negative levels resulting from a single spell or effect). It would neutralize a single poison coursing through your system, or a single disease that afflicted you.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)10:56 No.1028410
    >>1028392
    Doesn't work, since your werewolf-self might not have knowledge of your abilities and might not want to use IRON HEART SURGE to heal THAT particular condition.
    ...Or are you saying you want to use IRON HEART SURGE to cure lycanthropy while normal? In that, even though the curse/disease isn't active, it's still affecting you? That's kind of a stretch.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)11:00 No.1028416
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    >>1028410

    >Doesn't work, since your werewolf-self might not have knowledge of your abilities and might not want to use IRON HEART SURGE to heal THAT particular condition.

    Uh, the lycanthrope template lets you retain all of your special attacks and special qualities:

    www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm
    >A lycanthrope retains the special attacks of the base creature or base animal
    >A lycanthrope retains all the special qualities of the base creature and the base animal
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)11:03 No.1028422
    >>1028410
    Use it to stop the transformation.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)11:06 No.1028439
    >>1028410
    I'm talking about using it to stop being a werewolf. Like, after trying it out for a while you decide it's just not your thing, so you want to get rid of the curse.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)11:19 No.1028485
    >>1027569
    >Being outdoors out at night gives you either concealment (for shadowy illumination) or total concealment (for complete darkness), both of which are effects. You can use IHS to end the night and presumably make the sun come up so that it's not dark any more.

    >>1028037
    >Sunlight is an effect lasting 1 or more rounds, especially if yo are an Orc or Drow or something. Therefore, Iron Heart Sure the sun away. Eternal winter.

    Won't everyone on the planet who has IHS be fighting over who wants what day/night conditions?
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)11:19 No.1028487
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    So it's basically "Power Word: FUCK THAT SHIT!"
    >> King in Yellow 01/17/08(Thu)11:24 No.1028505
    Best way to kill yourself ever.

    Life *is* a permanent effect on you, after all.

    Villain: You can't foil my plot, as it is to let you live!
    Hero: BY ODIN'S MIGHTY THEWS, THIS SHALL NOT SUCCEED!

    Dead hero.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)11:24 No.1028507
    >>1028485

    The planet's rotation gets fucked up by people using IHS to make it day or night on their side.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)11:26 No.1028514
    >>1028505
    I'd be posting that one SMBC comic with Batman and the Joker but I can't find it.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)11:28 No.1028516
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    >>1028505

    >Life *is* a permanent effect on you, after all.

    Life is most certainly not permanent since it has a variable and finite duration, unless you've taken the Hourai Elixir or other such measures to ensure your immortality. Being undead doesn't count, because that's everlasting UNlife.

    But hey, there's really nothing stopping you from using Iron Heart Surge to end the effect of your life. You even get a +2 morale bonus to attack rolls for one round while you're dead, how about that.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)11:30 No.1028517
    >>1028516
    funny how undeath and unlife are really the same thing.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)11:31 No.1028518
    >>1028516
    well with that logic nothing is a permanent effect since you can always die sooner or latter.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)11:38 No.1028536
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    >>1028517

    I blame Bram Stoker for coming up with the nonsensical term "undead" and getting it to stick. I mean, life is the opposite of death. UNlife is supposed to be death, and UNdeath is supposed to be life. Right now, unlife and undeath both refer to a state of existence that is neither life nor death.

    >>1028518

    By "permanent", I mean "meant to last forever unless outside circumstances interfere". Human life is never meant to last forever and has no chance of lasting forever. On the other hand, a spell that is meant to be permanent might just endure eternity, but unforeseen circumstances might result in it being dispelled.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)11:44 No.1028551
    >>1028516
    >You even get a +2 morale bonus to attack rolls for one round while you're dead, how about that.

    "I JUST BECAME AN HERO AND I'M FEELING LIKE A COMPLETE BADASS!"
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)11:52 No.1028580
    >>1027977
    I am going to try this in my next campaign just to see how the DM will react after I show him that IHS lets me do so.
    >> King in Yellow 01/17/08(Thu)11:55 No.1028589
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    >>1028516

    Yeah, I'm typing between Microecon homework, so I missed that.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)11:57 No.1028597
    Epic thread
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)11:59 No.1028601
    >>1028597
    Minus the brief rules lawyer hijack, of course.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)12:10 No.1028644
    >>1027620
    AYAN HAATO, ONEGAI!
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)12:16 No.1028673
    >>1028051
    Just imagine how much you could abuse if it only ended the effect for yourself. A mage could pick up Martial Study ([worthless Iron Heart maneuver]) and Martial Study (Iron Heart Surge). He could cast AMF and then fire off IHS to make himself and only himself totally immune to its magic-impeding effects.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)13:10 No.1028836
    >>1027569
    >From a practical viewpoint, IHS gives you a 100% chance of busting down, say, an Antimagic Field or a Forcecage.
    >Forcecage

    I'm not so sure that IHS can break a Forcecage. Sure, you're in the spell's area and you're being debilitated, but the actual effect of the spell is the cage itself. You can't break down a Wall of Force using IHS because it's not directly affecting you, so why would you be able to break down a Forcecage?
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)13:14 No.1028844
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    Off topic but can I get your self stat post from a few days ago?
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)13:20 No.1028866
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    >>1028844

    Uhhh, sure, why not. Keep in mind that the skill ranks are completely RAW, since a 1st-level human expert expert has [(6 + Int modifier) x 4] + 4 skill points, so a 1st-level human expert with 15 Intelligence has 36 skill points.

    1st-level human expert, true neutral.

    Strength: 8 (I am quite weak.)
    Dexterity: 9 (I am slightly uncoordinated and clumsy.)
    Constitution: 8 (I am lanky and sickly, and I never participate in athletic activities.)
    Intelligence: 15 (I am going with Intelligence = IQ/10; I got a result of IQ 160 for the WISC-III test I took when I was 6 years old, but the Stanford-Binet test I took 3 years ago said I had dumbed down to IQ 149.)
    Wisdom: 12 (I've got a fair deal of common sense and on-the-fly thinking skills.)
    Charisma: 8 (I am terrible at social situations, and I'm literally a hikikomori outside of work.)

    Feats:
    Jack of All Trades (Complete Adventurer, page 110)
    Research (Eberron Campaign Setting, page 59)
    Skill Focus (knowledge [popular culture])
    Skill Focus (profession [information technology])

    Flaws:
    Feeble
    Meager Fortitude

    Traits:
    Absent Minded
    Specialized (profession [information technology])

    Skill Ranks:
    Knowledge (behavioral sciences) 4 ranks
    Knowledge (current events) 4 ranks
    Knowledge (earth and life sciences) 4 ranks
    Knowledge (history) 4 ranks
    Knowledge (physical sciences) 4 ranks
    Knowledge (popular culture) 4 ranks
    Knowledge (technology) 4 ranks
    Knowledge (theology and philosophy) 4 ranks
    Profession (information technology) 4 ranks
    -----
    Total ranks = 32
    Expert skill ranks at 1st-level = (6 + Intelligence modifier) x4

    Skill Bonuses:
    Knowledge (behavioral sciences) +7
    Knowledge (current events) +7
    Knowledge (earth and life sciences) +7
    Knowledge (history) +7
    Knowledge (physical sciences) +7
    Knowledge (popular culture) +10
    Knowledge (technology) +7
    Knowledge (theology and philosophy) +7
    Profession (information technology) +10
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)13:24 No.1028881
    No GM in their right mind would allow this skill to do so much, and would barr it from effects that only target you and cannot effect the laws of physics like gravity, sunlight, abortions, but lulz. Great scenarios.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)13:27 No.1028891
    >>1028881

    >barr it from effects that only target you
    Isn't that what Iron Heart Surge was vaguely intended to do in the first place? Stop effects that are affecting just you?

    >the laws of physics like gravity, sunlight, abortions
    Abortions are a law of physics now?
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)13:31 No.1028903
    >>1028866
    Thanks
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)13:33 No.1028908
    By RAW: IHS would work on all of those things except Forcecage, as that does not actually affect you.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)13:37 No.1028921
    >>1028908
    If you're in the cage, you're inside the area of the spell and are being directly affected by it.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)13:40 No.1028930
    >>1027649
    >That's seems dumb to me, as no movement would be necessary to think really hard at whatever ailment you were aiming to elmeminate, but that is indeed what ToB says, so, my mistake then.

    What the Hell is dumb about a MANEUVER requiring you to MOVE.
    >> Neil Arthur Hotep 01/17/08(Thu)13:44 No.1028941
    I'm going to argue that, while Iron Heart Surge ends the effect something has on you, it does not end the source of that effect.
    So, if you used it to end the effects bad weather has on you, you are not hindered by it anymore but it is still raining.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)13:44 No.1028945
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    >>1028930

    And before someone claims that Iron Heart Surge is a purely mental action, for all we know, it requires somatic gestures and body movements for it to work.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)13:45 No.1028948
    Rule 0 is affecting me? Fuck that, IRON HEART SURGE!
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)13:46 No.1028952
    >>1028941
    See >>1028155. In D&D, an "effect" is both the cause and the effect. A thunderstorm is the effect, the penalties are what happen to you because of the effect.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)13:49 No.1028964
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    >>1028903

    By the way, just what do you need this for? Are you trying to internet-stalk me?
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)13:51 No.1028969
    >>1028941
    If you're going to use that logic, how do you explain that the effect ends for EVERYONE? There's a whirling tornado and anyone can step into it without being affected by the strong winds? Wouldn't it make much more sense to simply say that the tornado ends?
    >> Neil Arthur Hotep 01/17/08(Thu)13:53 No.1028973
    >>1028952
    Oh, if it is like that, everything is all right, then.
    But I still have to say that it's pretty silly.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)13:55 No.1028979
    >>1028973
    >But I still have to say that it's pretty silly.

    What do you expect, it's WEEABOO FIGHTAN MAGIC. It comes from the same book that has maneuvers that let you teleport or make thrown weapons ricochet back to you as extraordinary abilities.
    >> Neil Arthur Hotep 01/17/08(Thu)13:55 No.1028981
    >>1028969
    I would have said that the tornado doesn't end for everyone, only you are not affected by it. But since the wording of D&D rules is different from what I assumed that's a moot point, anyway.
    >> Neil Arthur Hotep 01/17/08(Thu)13:58 No.1028986
    >>1028979
    That's not any more unfeasible than magic.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)14:03 No.1029005
    >>1028986
    But you're doing it as an EXTRAORDINARY ability. As in, it's supposed to be completely mundane.
    >> Neil Arthur Hotep 01/17/08(Thu)14:07 No.1029017
    >>1029005
    Oh, it is extraordinary, to be sure. But everyone could do it if they trained hard enough. If I can accept magic and giant, flying lizards and people making a living form robbing vast underground complexes I can accept that.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)14:07 No.1029023
    >>1029005
    >But you're doing it as an EXTRAORDINARY ability. As in, it's supposed to be completely mundane.

    >an EXTRAORDINARY ability
    >it's supposed to be completely mundane

    >EXTRAORDINARY ability
    >completely mundane

    >EXTRAORDINARY
    >mundane

    I'm aware that you're technically correct, but I still lol'd.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)14:10 No.1029028
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    >>1029017

    >But everyone could do it if they trained hard enough.

    Explain to me how someone can learn how to teleport and make thrown weapons ricochet back to him just by "training hard enough".
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)14:11 No.1029032
    >>1029023
    Actually, he's not:
    >Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.

    Far from "Mundane". Just non-magical.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)14:14 No.1029039
    >>1029032
    I'm pretty sure that's what he meant. Some acts are mundane in that they're still sort of feasible (as in:only village folk would go "Woah, that must be magic!").
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)14:19 No.1029066
    >>1029028
    Technically, as soon as you get past level 6 in Commoner, you're capable of being better at ANYTHING than a real world human. Fast Movement +10 and the Run feat alone are enough to break every sprinting record ever set, and a decent Con plus Endurance would make you the best marathon runner to ever live.

    Moreover, D&D is a setting in which arm-waving and speaking gibberish rewrites the basic code of the universe for fantastic effects like explosions.

    The ricochet thing has been documented as being "doable every now and then" with a lifetime of practice, but as we've already established, a lifetime of experience still rarely ever adds up to 6 levels in an NPC class. Is it really that hard to accept?
    >> Neil Arthur Hotep 01/17/08(Thu)14:27 No.1029093
    >>1029066
    I agree to this and would like to add that the humans in DnD don't need to be exactly like we are, and the laws of physics also don't need to be exactly the same. As I stated before, since I can accept that someone may teleport with the use of magic, I can accept that someone can do it without the use of magic but through some other kind of training.
    I could even justify it by saying that, while magic uses arcane energy teleporting without magic uses a different kind of énergy (call it willpower or chi or fluidum or however you want).
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)14:39 No.1029137
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    >>1029066

    I can accept that you break the limits of the human race once you're past 5th-level. You can do things that a normal human can do, only REALLY WELL. You can run ridiculously fast, you can wield a weapon with uncanny skill, you can take blows and falls that would kill any lesser man, etc.

    However, I'd think that if you're sticking to non-magical training, you're still bound by the laws of physics. Being able to teleport your own body is a HUGE step in what is scientifically possible, and it's not just something that you can pick up after training for a lifetime.

    Anyway, it's kind of a moot point since even the "mundane" things in D&D already break the laws of physics. I mean, just about anything can fly if it has a pair of wings.

    >Fast Movement +10 and the Run feat alone are enough to break every sprinting record ever set, and a decent Con plus Endurance would make you the best marathon runner to ever live.

    The current world record for the fastest average sprint speed is 33.96 feet per second, held by Michael Johnson. In one round (6 seconds), he could run 203.76 feat. Someone with a 40-foot movement speed and the Run feat could take a full-round action to move 200 feet. From this, we can infer that the world's fastest man has only a 40-foot movement speed. A 1st-level barbarian with the Run feat can have that sort of speed right off the bat.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)14:44 No.1029153
    >When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately.

    Hi I'm a DM and I have to interpret WoTC's shitty rules quite frequently. This quoted text means that the user of the maneuver ends the effect of the "spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting [him]" ... "ends immediately [in regards to the initiator].

    ie/
    1. Spellcaster casts cloudkill on enemies
    2. Warblade uses this on his turn
    3. Warblade moves through cloudkill unaffected, with morale boosts
    4. Cloudkill still affects everyone else

    RAW even supports this: "affecting you"
    I could be a dick of a DM and say rules only affecting you, as it does not say affecting you and your party, but whatever, it also does not say it clears it up for everyone else: the immediate effect on you ends.

    Besides, if I did allow it (and I won't), you can expect enemies to have it.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)14:45 No.1029156
    Can we get back to Iron Heart Surge now? I want to know if I can use it to end a Frenzied Berserker frenzy early.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)14:47 No.1029169
    >>1029156
    If you're the FB, yes. Else, no.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)14:51 No.1029179
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    >>1029153

    >Hi I'm a DM and I have to interpret WoTC's shitty rules quite frequently. This quoted text means that the user of the maneuver ends the effect of the "spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting [him]" ... "ends immediately [in regards to the initiator].

    The wording is ambiguous, but it can be interpreted as saying that the effect totally ends for everyone. If WotC wanted to make it only end for you, then they would've said something along the lines of "The effect ends for you only" or "You are not affected by this effect any more".

    >Besides, if I did allow it (and I won't), you can expect enemies to have it.

    Let's all turn the game into a round of "Who can be God with Iron Heart Surge", shall we?
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)15:07 No.1029243
    the existance of pun-pun effects me.


    IRON HEART SURRRRRRRRRRRRGE
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)15:10 No.1029258
    >>1029153
    Sorry, but according to Wizards CustServ, the IHS does indeed end the effect. From the Wizards boards:

    Q Can Iron Heart Surge remove:
    1. Poison.
    2. Disease.
    3. The spell "Bestow Curse".
    4. Ability score damage.
    5. Level drain.
    6. The influence of an antimagic field. (*)

    Lastly,
    7. If you use Iron Heart Surge against an effect which does not solely target you, but also affects an area, do you end the entire effect or do you just dismiss it from yourself?

    A
    1. Yes.
    2. Yes.
    3. Yes.
    4. Ability score damage is not an ongoing effect. It is the result of an attack, spell, or ability. So no - damage, even ability score damage, will not be removed by Iron Heart Surge.
    5. In most cases, level drain is similar to damage when determining if Iron Heart Surge removes it from the martial adept. If something level drained you, this is a permanent result, not an effect with an ongoing duration. You would not be able to use Iron Heart Surge to remove level drain.
    6. Yes, you would be able to end the antimagic field if you chose to do so with Iron Heart Surge.
    7. If the effect does not solely target you, such as the antimagic field in number 6, it will still end the entire effect.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)15:29 No.1029344
    >>1029258
    CustServ is the cancer killing RAW. They know jack shit about the rules.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)15:35 No.1029373
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    >>1028964
    I wanted to show some one what a well though out and presented stat-me looked like since we are supposed to be making ourselves for a game that they want to run. Also if I wanted to inter-stalk you I guess I could.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)15:40 No.1029398
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    >>1029373

    >hi_Adslahnit.png

    Gah, you even know my IRC nick.

    By the way, I made an error in the statblock. Please make the following correction:

    >Total ranks = 36
    >Expert skill ranks at 1st-level = (6 + Intelligence modifier) x4
    >Human bonus skill ranks at 1st-level = +4
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)15:40 No.1029403
    >>1029344
    RAW is for faggots anyways.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)15:52 No.1029450
    1) This shit needs to be archived.

    2) As someone who took this ability on his new character before I saw this thread, what are things I could do to balance it so my group doesn't kick the shit out of me?
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)15:54 No.1029463
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    >>1029398
    I already made that note when I showed my friend.

    On topic, Am I correct in assuming you would need to take martial study twice to qualify for this maneuver?
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)15:58 No.1029472
    >>1029463
    Indeed you would as Iron Heart Surge requires the knowledge of at least one previous maneuver in the iron heart branch.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)16:01 No.1029480
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    >>1029450

    >2) As someone who took this ability on his new character before I saw this thread, what are things I could do to balance it so my group doesn't kick the shit out of me?

    You could opt out on ending gravity/time/space and stick to the more practical uses of Iron Heart Surge, such as eradicating debilitating conditions or AoE effects like Cloudkill or Antimagic Field (questionably Forcecage too). Simple as that.

    >>1029463

    >On topic, Am I correct in assuming you would need to take martial study twice to qualify for this maneuver?

    That is correct, since it has the prerequisite of one Iron Heart maneuver. You would also need an initiator level of 5th to qualify for Martial Study (Iron Heart Surge). Alternatively, you could just take levels in Warblade.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)16:04 No.1029492
    I may have to drop two feats just so I can end up with AMY begone.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)16:06 No.1029497
    >>1029492
    Why would you want to do that? Isn't AMF your friend if you're a melee-type?
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)16:15 No.1029521
    >>1029450
    Play it safe and don't abuse IHS at all. Then at the end of the campaign, during the BBEG fight, start ending things left and right for lulz.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)16:23 No.1029539
    >>1029480
    well were all meeting with the DM tonight tonight, in order to hammer out final details of the third chapter of our campaign and back-story for what happened/happening to our previous characters.
    So I guess I could just talk it over with him and make it know that I took this as a way to make up for my miserable 0 will save as a level 7.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)16:24 No.1029541
    ITT: people need to learn that Instantaneous effects can last until the end of time too.

    >Instantaneous

    >The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.


    Now look at this:
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm

    >Duration: Instantaneous


    Therefore you cannot use IHS to end gravity, or any other planar trait.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)16:26 No.1029550
    >>1029539
    Wow my grammar is atrocious, and I apologize for that.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)16:27 No.1029552
    >>1029539
    How in the flying fuck did you get your Will save that low?

    >>1029541
    The instantaneous duration only refers to the actual Genesis spell. It creates several other effects (planar traits), which may or may not have their own durations.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)16:28 No.1029562
    >>1029552
    Level 5 Warblade/Level 2 Bloodstone Brawler, and a Wis of 8
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)16:30 No.1029568
    >>1029562
    Whoops, I meant Bloodstone Blade.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)16:33 No.1029578
    >>1029575
    I meant Bloodstone Blade, and it's in the Tome of Battle.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)16:33 No.1029580
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    >>1029568

    I think you mean "Bloodstorm Blade". Are you planning to go into Master Thrower later on, by any chance?
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)16:36 No.1029588
    >>1029552
    That is incorrect.

    The traits are a direct result of the spell, (as they are set by the caster in the spell effect)and thus the effects have an instantaneous duration.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)16:36 No.1029589
    >>1029580
    No because
    1) I don't think we'll get that high level. and
    2) My group would beat the shit out of me.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)16:57 No.1029660
    >>1029588
    Genesis says nothing about planar traits. By RAW, there's nothing that links them to the duration of the spell.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)17:09 No.1029704
    >>1027723
    Thread should've ended right then and there. Metaphorically speaking.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)17:09 No.1029705
    >>1029660
    This is odd coming from the same board that would use Genesis to create their own fast time bubble word so they could get a full nights rest in a hour.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)17:13 No.1029721
    >>1029539
    Seems safe enough, better then using it once in a way he doesn't like and having him completely ban it.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)17:16 No.1029729
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    >>1029705

    There's always Rope Trick and/or a Ring of Sustenance if you want to do that. Well, at least until the casters with Transdimensional Spell start popping up.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)17:23 No.1029749
    >>1029729
    .....tell me more of this rope trick.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)17:27 No.1029759
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    >>1029749

    Oldest one in the book when it comes to easily recovering all of your spells in a safe space: www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropeTrick.htm
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)17:28 No.1029762
    >>1029759
    Thank You!
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)17:31 No.1029774
    >>1029759
    HAH, and to think last game my players created a stone wall to blockade themselves in a room in order to rest. Woke up to a booby trapped door and a small mob.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)17:35 No.1029790
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    >>1029762
    >>1029774

    How can you NOT know about Rope Trick?
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)17:41 No.1029807
    >>1029790
    Mainly played low to no magic settings before as before this group that is what my previous preferred.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)17:52 No.1029835
    I agree
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)17:52 No.1029839
    This thread went from "Abusing Iron Heart Surge" to "General Random D&D Discussion".
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)17:53 No.1029843
    >>1029839
    your point being?
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)18:17 No.1029917
    >>1029839
    Welcome to /tg/.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)18:28 No.1029971
    I'm thinking... can my opponent be considered an effect that's currently affecting me? Can I use IHS to wipe my opponent out of existence?
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)18:43 No.1030024
    >>1029971
    Unfortunately, no.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)18:52 No.1030060
    That raises up the question: just how does WotC define "effect?"
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)19:00 No.1030086
    Iron Heart Surge is basically "KICK LOGIC TO THE CURB!" in Weeaboo Fightan Magic form.
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)20:05 No.1030317
    low stats impose a penalty on your character, so use that to get your below average stats to 10 instantly!
    >> Anonymous 01/17/08(Thu)21:17 No.1030627
    IRON HEART FUCKING SURGE, BITCHES.


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