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    157 KB Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:03 No.1316871  
    Instead of gathering up slaves to perform construction and labor, why doesn't your typical slave-taking high-fantasy nation just get necromancers to animate skeletons and zombies instead? Surely it must be more cost-effective to get the corpses of the fallen to do all the heavy lifting, and animating skeletons and zombies is admittedly a lot less evil than capturing free-willed humanoids and whipping them into submission. While it may be a bit unsettling to see a lanky skeleton or zombie doing menial labor instead of a lanky and sickly slave, mindless undead have several benefits over living slaves: one, they always follow orders, two, they never complain about their work, three, they don't require food or drink, and four, they never need to rest and can work 24/7.

    However, the availability of spellcasters varies from place to place, so the cost-effectiveness will vary. But hey, in Eberron, the nation of Karrnath already uses undead soldiers to fill in the army's ranks on a regular basis.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:04 No.1316875
    Because you know damn well that if the rules for dnd were ever applied to economy the world would delete itself.

    In after "lets all pretend" the rpg
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:05 No.1316876
    Because of the smell.
    >> Sage Hoge !!mp3WVEd4fDm 03/11/08(Tue)11:07 No.1316885
    because necromancers don't know basic architecture and zombies eat people and at least one corpse would belong to one of the towns people.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:10 No.1316895
    >because necromancers don't know basic architecture
    Mindless undead can be programmed to complete simple tasks.

    >zombies eat people
    Not in D&D. I just checked Libris Mortis' table of undead diets, and skeletons and zombies are listed down as having no need or craving to eat.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:11 No.1316897
    Because all of a sudden the nation's armies would stop taking prisoners.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:16 No.1316912
    >and at least one corpse would belong to one of the towns people

    Exactally. Would you want your relative's dead body wandering around instead of resting in peace?
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:17 No.1316915
    Because using undead may be effective, but it doesn't get you any points on your Evil Overlords Union card.

    C'Mon, this is the basics! 1 point for using live slaves, 5 points for having an abomination against nature as a pet, 10 points for having a doomsday device that takes hours or days to turn on, but can be shut down with the press of a button/pull of a lever and a whopping 25 points for sticking the heroes in an elaborate deathtrap room, alone, instead of just killing them.

    At 100 points, free trip to Cancun for you and your hot blackguard bitch.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:18 No.1316921
    Don't forget, as they're decomposing corpses, it would be regretful if their decaying bones would collapse under the weight HUEG stone block they're carrying.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:19 No.1316923
    I don't see any problem with that. It's just like him donating his body to science, only he donated his body to the community instead. Well, without his knowing and all, but he's dead anyway.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:22 No.1316934
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    In D&D, zombies actually get +2 Strength, so they're better than your average slave at lifting shit. Skeletons get no Strength penalty, so they're just as good as a living slave at bearing heavy loads too.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:23 No.1316940
    I'm a pretty cold guy but if I regularly saw my dad's body walking around my town doing construction work instead of hanging out under the ground reduced to ashes I'd be completely freaked out
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:24 No.1316946
    I know. That nigger had to die before he got a job.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:24 No.1316949
    My BBEG may be an evil asshole that likes to tease the heroes, but at least he has respect for the dead.

    Necromancers, sheesh. What next, checking the Book of Vile Darkness for new recruitment tactics?
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:26 No.1316957

    Exactly. Lazy motherfucker.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:26 No.1316959
    Because nobody wants to see the corpses of their friends and family walking around doing menial work. With slaves, you only have to worry about the slaves, but with corpses you have all classes of society who might get worked up about it.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:29 No.1316971
    I just had this fucking awesome vision of a zombie Moses.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:29 No.1316976
    Your posting sucks.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:30 No.1316983
    Brains brains people go?
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:33 No.1316995
    Wouldn't work unless he was an Awakened zombie. And then he would have a very tough time convincing all the other skeletons/zombies to join him on his exodus, because they'd all be mindless.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:34 No.1317003

    Poor Zombie Moses ;_;
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:35 No.1317006
    In planescape, torment, people sold the rights to their dead bodies to the "Dustmen". The dustmen would give money to the living who would sign the contract, then when the person died they would re-animate the corpse and use it as a worker until it fell apart.

    I've always wondered why magics to animate a corpse or skeleton was VASTLY simpler than to animate a marionette or oversized doll. Though, wouldn't hundreds of permanent unseen servants be a good way to increase the workforce of a city? Level 1 spell, material component is a string or piece of wood. Sure they can only carry 20lbs/drag 100. But nobody says you only have to use one at a time.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:36 No.1317011
    See the post about world deletion.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:39 No.1317035
    I don't see why the undead have to be all up in the public's face, building churches and whatnot.

    I mean, you could just have a buncha skeletons whose job it is to build a new sewer. Or to clean out pipes. Deal with sewage in general, is what I'm getting at. I'm sure there's a couple more uses you could put them to where you'd never have to see them.

    Imagine a miller who has a skeleton constantly walking on a wheel, which in turn moves his mill. Free power forever sounds cool to me.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:40 No.1317037
    How could you even tell he was a relative? If they were Skeletons can you actually tell by just bones that is 'OMG it's uncle Bob!' I don't think so. And if it's a zombie use flesh shape to turn it into anon and no one would give a damn. I mean people will ignore shit like that if it's all uniform & faceless that's why robots are so popular as long as they do their stuff & don't smell too bad. People will just live with it.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:40 No.1317039
    sage for pedophile bullshit
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:42 No.1317044
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    The problem with Unseen Servants is that they only last for 1 hour per caster level, whereas skeletons and zombies created through Animate Dead last until destroyed. Oh, and if an Unseen Servant moves out of range from your position, it dissipates.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:50 No.1317063

    Holy shit you could have a huge industrial city that ran on Skeleton Power!
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:51 No.1317069

    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:52 No.1317073

    Exactly. Why even HAVE windmills and all that horseshit? Heck, you could run EVERYTHING on undead! There's no downside!

    Except if a high level Necro comes in and controls everything. But, the chances of that are like 1 in 10. That's like, 1%.

    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:53 No.1317075
    Listen, it just doesn't fit with social ethics, okay? You can't just have dead people walking around the place doing shitty jobs. Paladins would notice after a while and fuck up the city.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:53 No.1317076
    World deletion.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:55 No.1317082
    Sounds like awesome on toast.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:56 No.1317085
    Hence permanency on the unseen servants spell.

    Hrm. Craft wondrous item with a continuous unseen servant?

    Create undead is a 6th level spell, which is pretty high. 1 hour to cast, must be cast at night too.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:57 No.1317088

    Social ethics change as you go from place to place. In some places around the world today, people cut off girl's clits. Is that cool here in America? No, we consider it mutilation. Over there, however, it's been their way of life for generations.

    Everyone thinks differently of different situations. Some cities are cool with paladins, others with undead.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)11:57 No.1317089
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    Even if the city used slaves instead, some asshole mage could come in and Fireball/Lightning Bolt them all.


    To be fair, a paladin would fuck up a city full of slavery too.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:00 No.1317102
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    Unseen Servant isn't on the list of spells eligible for Permanency, and Animate Dead is only a 3rd-level cleric spell, a 4th-level sorcerer/wizard spell, and a 4th-level dread necromancer spel.
    >> double sage 03/11/08(Tue)12:03 No.1317115
    double sage for double pedo bullshit
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:04 No.1317120
    anyone notice that these two molesters are both on the emogoth vampire side of the debate?
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:04 No.1317123
    get out of my hive double sage
    >> double sage 03/11/08(Tue)12:05 No.1317126
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    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:07 No.1317131

    The city needn't be up front about using the dead as a source of power. The mayor/king/elders could bullshit everyone by saying that there were powerful waterwheels or something beneath the city. But when you go down there: BAM, Skeleton City.
    >> King in Yellow 03/11/08(Tue)12:10 No.1317147
    Hunt down Hollowfaust: City of Necromancers.

    Best thing that ever came out of the Shattered Lands setting. Neutral city of Necromancers in an extinct volcano? Fuck yeah! Undead constructs used to service the city, patrol the streets, and do general army work? Fuck yeah!

    Has some formatting issues though.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:12 No.1317156
    But then that would remove part the point of undead being used to replace slaves for construction work and menial labor.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:13 No.1317161
    Why use skeletons then?

    Permanency of Wall of fire or gust of wind would provide all the power one would ever need.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:15 No.1317170
    "From today, undead will be doing all the heavy work.

    If you have any issues with this, please take it up with your nearest complaint officer, who can be found at your local reanimation station.
    In addition, please refrain from submitting missing person reports for said complainers. Out clerks have enough work as is."
    >> GUH Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:19 No.1317174
    World deletion, bad smell, zombies creep your average person out, mass revolt, (even more) harassment from neighboring kingdom, necromancers fighting for power, hardly any societies even condone necromancy or undead, paladins, not enough necromancers or powerful ones to control that many undead, God's get pissed off, to name some. But it is a (kinda) good idea, maybe if they're only used for sewer/underground work or defending the nation when attacked, but still not very feasible.

    Guh. Guhhhh. weeaboo pedophile pictures look at them guh lets supply them when nobody wants them guhhh. Guh.

    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:23 No.1317184
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    I just had a thought about the neighboring nation getting mindless constructs to do all the work usually meant for slaves, and then the two countries eventually breaking out into war, sending their armies of undead and constructs against each other.
    >> Then again it's just a game so do whatever the fuck you want Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:24 No.1317186
    Also, I don't know much about necromancy and it could vary on the setting/system, but what if you only have a few necromancers, even one controlling all the undead, and then he dies? Or gets hypnotized or something similar? Would the undead just stop or fall apart, ded? Or what if because he's controlling so many undead at one time that his power over them weakens, falters, so that enemy necromancers can easily take control over them and use the undead against the original necro?

    Also rotting flesh dropping everywhere. People at large don't like undead, simple as that.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:26 No.1317193

    People keep talking about the whole flesh issue, but that's why you make skeletons. Simple as that.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:34 No.1317207
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    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:36 No.1317211

    Technically, your soul will still arrive in whichever Outer Plane you were supposed to end up in. Your skeleton will just be animated through negative energy.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:38 No.1317215
    Seriously. Skeles can be super-hygenic if prepared right. No smells or trails of icky bits, hell, get them embalmed and sealed and you can just hose them off if they get dirty.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:38 No.1317216
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    It's like I said earlier. Unless the city is run by a buncha retards, they wouldn't put undead at every street corner, handing out fliers or dancing for coins. They'd put them way under the city, or down in mines. Doing work that would take humans a lot more time. Now, I'm not saying that people still wouldn't have something to say about that. After all, undead are creepy.

    But, ask yourself this. If you knew that undead were under the city, doing jobs like mopping up crap, toiling in coal mines or turning cranks so you didn't have to... well, I may get offended that my dad's down there somewhere. I'd also look on the bright side however, the bright side being that I didn't have to do any of that shit.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:43 No.1317227
    But it's not you anymore. Anyways not all cultures are so hung up about death.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:43 No.1317232
    Much as I like these ideas, there's still the small fact that the city's giving absolute control of a vast number of, effectively, soldiers to a person, or group of people who may not be entirely sane. And then you keep adding to the army of undead under the control of the necromancer/s. Eventually, one of the necromancers is going to decide to take over the city, and no-one will be able to stop him.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:44 No.1317236
    >handing out fliers or dancing for coins.
    I am suddenly reminded of this...

    Fucking talking pineapple with its skeleton band.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:47 No.1317244

    If this happens, it's going to be in a city that's at least pretty cool with the idea of undead. In that case, all they'd have to do is keep a number of necromancers on the payroll. Heck, even give them a bonus if they rat out another bad Necro. That may not work out, however. Too much randomly turning each other in.

    Basically, as long as you kept an eye on your necros, kept a NORMAL standing army, (in case those damned Necromancers get antsy one day) and keep the undead limited to skeletons, I don't forsee much of a problem.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:51 No.1317257
    Except that the entire rest of the world is going to have a beef with it. The paladin countries are going to want to smite you, the evil guys are going to assume you're down with their world domination and get angry when you just want to channel negative energy a little to make life easy, and everyone on the planet is going to be pissed off that you're using the dark arts to outproduce them.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:53 No.1317268
    "May not be entirely sane" is pushing it. Necromancers are, by definition, evil. Great big capital letters Gygaxian EVIL. Seems like a great idea.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:53 No.1317270
    There's really a simple reason why this sort of thing doesn't happen. Just look at the rules. It takes, at best, a 5th level cleric or a 7th level sorcerer or wizard to create zombies or skeletons. Rebuking undead allows a cleric to control up to your level in hit die of undead, and Animate Dead allows you to control up to 4 hid die of undead per caster level. That means a 5th level cleric could command up to 25 skeletons fashioned from 1 hit die slaves. That means that a city would have to have a remarkably high number of clerics to maintain a decent undead workforce. Wizards and sorcerers fare a little better, since they could use Control Undead, but they have to be at least level 7 to cast Animate Dead, and characters of that level should be even rarer. You could have 3rd level wizards using Control Undead to take up some of the excess, but they could only handle 3 times their number of 2nd level spell slots in undead at a time. A city that did this would have to have legions of completely dedicated spellcasters working together to maintain and manage the undead workforce. Having that many spellcasters at once would be rare anyway, but having them all work together like this would be nigh-impossible. What magic user would forsake the quest for personal power in favor of working for fantasy's equivalent of power and construction companies?
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:54 No.1317275

    I suppose that's true, but all of those paladin countries are also not going to randomly attack you for that. Especially if you don't even have the undead visible in your town.

    Second of all, I don't know about you, but I've never seen a setting with multiple strictly LG kingdoms. SOME countries may disagree, but when you start churning out cheaper products, I'm sure that some of those non-LG countries will be willing to overlook that you use undead. Especially if all their stuff is 30% off.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:54 No.1317276
    The enterprising kind.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:55 No.1317287

    Agreed. A wizard that realizes that he COULD go out and risk his life, or he could settle down early and make mad money the rest of his life.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:56 No.1317293
    What nobody here (or rather, the pedo op) is realizing is that 7th level characters aren't *that* common, and to be working together en masse, simply to build a town?..
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:58 No.1317298
    If the GM allows it and the players like it then so be it.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)12:59 No.1317307
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    Heroes of Horror says that dread necromancers are just non-good (but not necessarily evil), so it's quite possible to have a group of Lawful Neutral and True Neutral necromancers managing the nation's undead.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:00 No.1317313

    Well, I suppose mages more interested in wealth than power might go for it... Paying all those spellcasters would be a heavy drain on the city's coffers, but if they also used them for agriculture, mining, and assembly line-type production of goods, they could easily make up the difference. Saving the cost of maintaining a standing army would help too... Okay, I give up. Other than the difficulty of getting that many spellcasters together and working in an organized fashion, I can't see any reason why a city wouldn't do this and become fabulously wealthy in the process.
    >> It's a game. Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:01 No.1317316
    It'd better be the best town ever. I want the whole thing to be able to spin on the huge wheel of corpses, with chainsaws sticking out everywhere
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:02 No.1317318
    This is why in my homebrew magic's kept out of public life. The wizards have their own academy-state in the far North run completely on magic, but they make a point of hunting down people who use the arcane outside of their walls. They take the most intelligent youngsters from around the world and educate them, but hunt down and experiment on Sorcerors. Any magic users that don't want to join them keep very, very low. And clerics and druids are extraordinarily rare people.

    I find it makes the whole thing a lot easier to suspend disbelief in.
    >> Lazy DM V 03/11/08(Tue)13:04 No.1317325
    Going to sound stupid here, but how about artifacts? No way to circumvent the need of a bunch of stronger-than-average necromancers somehow?

    On the other hand, there have been examples, as far as I know, of kings amassing a goodly number of nastyish wizards/sorcerers. Only reason necromancers would be rarer might be the whole "you raise dead, durr you evul" bit.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:09 No.1317354
    So now you have almost an entire city with no jobs.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:09 No.1317356
    I have to mention here that I'm really saddened by this thread overall. Is this concept not clearly just an outcry against the mechanization of our own society?
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:12 No.1317364

    Sure, you could use wands, staffs, or wondrous items capable of casting Animate Dead and Control Undead, but think of the cost, and the people to operate those magical items. You'd still have to have large numbers of spellcasters, or at least people with a decent Use Magic Device modifier, and you'd have the added cost of commissioning tons of expensive magic items.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:13 No.1317366

    Now they can devote themselves to artistic pursuits. They can develop new magic. Discuss philosophy.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:14 No.1317368
    Sit behind their magical crystals and arguing with eachother on the local mini-dimension they lovingly called the Fourth Chan.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:15 No.1317371
    I think he said artifact as in Plotanium.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:16 No.1317377
    >> Lazy DM V 03/11/08(Tue)13:19 No.1317394
    Invent stuff. Go on for hours about how the young don't know how good they have it.

    ... You know, this does mean that you either get a ruler with a shitload of money in his coffers and a bucketload of unemployed people who can't get jobs, probably leading to revolt years down the line... Or a citizen salary of some sort. You'd need to balance population somehow though, and historically "abstaining" doesn't cut it. Maybe army duty like the Romans? (They used slaves for alot of things) Or you know, prophylactics of some sort.

    If we're going to be moral about the treatment of dead, the zombie/skeleton could be given a proper funeral once it breaks down. Probably best to burn it.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:21 No.1317403

    No menial labor jobs, sure, but it frees up the population to pursue art and magic. Granted, people who aren't intellectually gifted are basically useless now, but who cares when society advances as fast as this one would?
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:23 No.1317413
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:24 No.1317420
    Name me a job that a skeleton can't do more cheaply.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:25 No.1317425
    This city's beginning to sound like a place where the artist need not fear the censor, where the wizard wouldn't be constrained by petty morality and where the great wouldn't be constrained by the small.
    >> Lazy DM V 03/11/08(Tue)13:25 No.1317426
    Only real problem here could be the whole intellectually gifted getting stuck keeping the whole league of zombies going. But really, should be a way around that.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:28 No.1317435

    Sure. Produce art, rule the city, engage in trade, and pursue magical research. Skeletons are mindless, they can do simple labor, and even complex labor if it's broken down into simple steps, but they have no capacity for anything that requires intelligence, creativity, or interpersonal skills.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:30 No.1317448

    Well, how big a workforce does the city really need? One mage can control several skeletons, so the number of people needed to do anything drastically decreases. The mages who control the skeletons doing all the physical labor are pretty much tied up doing that, but the rest of the population is now free to turn to intellectual pursuits now that the undead workforce can provide for them.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:33 No.1317466
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    Mindless skeletons don't make very good artists, composers, philosophers, scientists, inventors, politicians, merchants, businessmen, and a lot of other roles that any good society needs to progress.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:33 No.1317471
    While people may initially be opposed to an undead workforce, once they realise it means no living person ever has to work again, and can live like a noble with undead servants to do their every whim, I think they'll come round to the idea.

    And if not, well we can always use more zombies.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:35 No.1317482

    See: Ancient Greece. All those leet philosophers and thinkers were able to spend so much time doing that because they had slaves to take care of their needs. A necro-city could be a philosophical-artistic utopia.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:36 No.1317488

    That's genius! Build it under the sea!
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:39 No.1317508
    Too few living people to buy art. The city rulers I imagine have their positions very secure, even against death. Trade with whom? The skeletons spending their weekly pay? And not everyone is a wizard.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:40 No.1317512
    1 Evil priest
    2 Command undead
    3 ??????
    4 PROFIT
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:41 No.1317515

    You've obviously never been to Italy. Whole country is stuffed with fantastic art, all paid for by a tiny handfull of super-rich families.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:42 No.1317518
    So what happens when the skeleton controllers are given orders by the city rulers to *not* take care of "a few dissidents"? Any way you put it, there is going to be a MASSIVE rift between the poor and the nobles. Nobles will have an ARMY doing their dishes, while the poor can't even get jobs to earn money, so they CANNOT be un-poor.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:42 No.1317520

    Same problem exists in slave societies.

    1: Spartacus
    2: Slave Revolt
    3: ????
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:44 No.1317524
    Now imagine if 90% of Italy's population were driven out because they were now useless?
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:44 No.1317526
    I'm curious though, but couldn't the population be trained in some way to control/direct the undead? Maybe through wands or whatever which would be mass produced? I assume the cost of the wands and paying the necromancers in general would be offset by how much they'd save by using the undead as a labor force. Also, I assume that theres some things the undead simply can't do. Such as cooking, inventing, hell anything that is too complex for a mindless servant. Also, I don't think the OP ever said this was set using DnD rules. Its possible that whatever setting this is done in, mages could be more common or something.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:44 No.1317527
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    Oh, and just FYI, the Five Nations sourcebook for the Eberron campaign setting has the Bone Knight prestige class in it, which is basically a cleric or paladin devoted to serving Karrnath by raising and fighting alongside undead troops. So yes, you can be a Lawful Good paladin who's totally cool with the concept of undead being used to further the progress of society.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:45 No.1317530

    The 'poor' would be the ones working as merchants, businessmen and artists, until they save up enough for their own undead workforce to build them a manor. Cities in the past were pretty small- think Greek City-State, not modern metropolis.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:48 No.1317538

    I think you're being overly pessimistic. Driving people off their land is how necromancers get themselves killed, an enlightened necromatic regime would make sure the people generally benefit from the undead presence.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:48 No.1317541
    Why share the wealth though? People in power don't want MORE people in power.

    Eberron does its very best to not use Alignment.

    You can direct undead to cook. Pour that, stir this, etc. And why bother inventing when every whim is being handled by a skeleton?
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:53 No.1317558
    Hmm. The nobles content with their complete power, while poor inventors desperately scavange and scrabble to put together something more efficient than the skeletons.

    Or something that interferes with them...

    And of course, the nobles are none to happy about it.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:54 No.1317562
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    >And why bother inventing when every whim is being handled by a skeleton?

    Because society is going to stagnate without technological progress (why not work towards having undead servants AND lightbulbs and machinery?), a lot of people have nothing better to do, and people sure as hell don't want to face an enemy nation armed with firearms and cannons, when all they have are skeletons wielding swords and bows.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:54 No.1317563

    You share the wealth because you dont want to end up like every wannabe necromancer overlord ever- dead at the hands of a bunch of adventurers.

    And invention and artistry are what you get when you have a leisured class, as you would with zombie slaves. People WANT to do stuff, not just sit around eating grapes all day.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)13:59 No.1317586
    age for whiny faggot who thinks everything is pedo, why are you still here?
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:00 No.1317587

    I dunno, she has pretty big tits to be a child. Animu =/= pedo. Well, not always.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:01 No.1317594
    Sage for the pedophile posting twice real fast in his own defense (one two post, amirite)
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:06 No.1317617
    age for believing everyone on /tg/ is the same person

    is it so hard to believe no one likes your stupid anti-pedo crusading?
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:07 No.1317621
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    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:07 No.1317622
    Nice try at convincing yourself that you're not a baby fucker at heart, pedophile.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:08 No.1317627
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    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:08 No.1317628
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    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:08 No.1317629
    And Touhoufags ruin another topic with their crap.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:09 No.1317631

    brilliant logic; "ZOMG all animu is pedo and everyone who disagrees with me is one pedo on 4chan"

    give up and GTFO already
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:10 No.1317633

    I'm #1317587, but this time I'm siding with the sagefag. gb2/pedo/
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:10 No.1317634
    So you're still posting, and still a pedophile.

    Well done sir. Brilliant victory, that.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:11 No.1317639
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    Don't blame me, blame Mr. Anti-Touhou Crusader for casting the first stone.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:12 No.1317644
    Ancient Rome and Greece have a few things to say about that.

    And its not like you're going to STOP creating undead. When every noble has four hundred skeletons, and more in the closet, who is going to fuck with them? After all... they're fully within the laws.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:12 No.1317652
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    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:13 No.1317658
    Never understood why raising mindless undead is "evil". No different than creating a golem to me, and much cheaper.

    More skeletons -> more free time -> more people can learn magic -> repeat.

    If you don't want your family raised, take the chance to use those necromancers in wiping out the nearest tribe of orcs who raid now and then and raise them.

    On not having work, i'd think things like blacksmithing, glassblowing, etc might be too complicated for skeletons. Maybe you can teach a skeleton to heat the metal and such, but for example making a sword would most likely be past it's skills.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:13 No.1317661
    >anti-Touhoufag ruins another topic with his crap.


    as they say on /b/ you're pissing in an ocean of piss - you're not going to change people posting touhou pics - which aren't pedo to begin with.

    Seriously, it'd be pedo if the characters were depicted in a suggestive way, but they're not. They're just posing or doing animu fightin' (in before weeaboo fightin magic). You're reading way too much into it

    If you want to whine about pedo pics see what they post on /b/
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:13 No.1317664
    Blame Mr. images about traditional games only, you childfucker
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:15 No.1317679
    Really well justified.

    No, congrats. I mean it.

    You've done well.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:16 No.1317686
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    You're not helping out at all.


    >Never understood why raising mindless undead is "evil". No different than creating a golem to me, and much cheaper.

    In D&D, it's because creating undead involves animating a corpse with negative energy (something that has ties to the cosmic force of evil), whereas creating a golem involves animating a statue-like object by binding an elemental spirit to it (something that doesn't really have anything to do with cosmic forces of evil).
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:16 No.1317687

    There wouldn't be any anti-Touhoufags if you didn't go round posting your Touhou crap everywhere. And no I don't care about the pedo crap. I just hate your constant spamming of Touhou and inevitable steering of topics into Touhou.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:17 No.1317692
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    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:20 No.1317702

    Rome yes, but ancient Greece had no real poverty unless you were a slave. And since undead would replace slavery, a necro city-state would be a pretty great place. Of course, if/ when it expands into an empire you might have problems, but there's no reason to assume it would be expansionist.
    >> LIBERATION! 03/11/08(Tue)14:23 No.1317722
    ... Mr. Touhou has pretty much only been talking about the D et D, and/or necromancy. In fact, I can't recall a time Mr. Touhou has talked about Touhou at all.

    You, on the other hand...
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:23 No.1317724

    Indeed, more likely it would expand by mere virtue of people seeing the great life they had there with their undead servants and moving there.
    >> King in Yellow 03/11/08(Tue)14:23 No.1317726

    This topic never would've gone anywhere near Touhou if not for 'LOL TOUHOU IS PEDOFILES' guy.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:24 No.1317732
    But why is negative energy evil? It doesn't discriminate alignment, it harms living creatures and heals undead, regardless of alignment.

    Most if not all negative energy creatures with a mind are evil from what i recall, and i would agree that creating those could be considered evil.

    I guess my issue is with an energy without a mind being considered evil or good. Thinking about it i might not have the same issue with law and chaos though.
    >> Lazy DM V 03/11/08(Tue)14:24 No.1317735
    Mind, there are historical examples of this - you don't want a huge bunch of hungry poor folks, zombies and skeletons or no. While they make excellent workers and meatshields, I'd still bet on the hungry mob, if there's a couple of semi-intelligent people directing it.

    Examples of this are of course France and Russia. The latter proves that even though you may think your ruler is a good, if things end up shitty enough, you _will_ revolt, and then the ruler finds out that though you may be able to amass wealth, power is a very volatile substance, and wealth which cannot be used is worthless.

    Personally, I think people would oppose undead cooking stuff - I won't even mention zombies, but skeletons could get a bit powdery... Besides, they are not "arteeests", so to speak. You may be able to direct them to cook, but it seems like something which requires a bit too much looking-over-shoulder management. Easier to tell them to "dig up dirt here, throw it over there. Stop when the pile is this big", "run here" or "build a wall like this, from this stick to that stick. Stop when you run out of resources". In other words, use 'em for simple, menial tasks which basically require muscle. When creativity and taste buds factor in, they become less the ideal choice.

    So, I imagine a skeleton torch-lighter vanishing from its post, coinciding with a string of bizarre murders in a foggy city in a gas-lit fantasy world. Must be something wrong with me. (Also, Undead. Barber. Turned Sentient.)
    >> HALMAN 03/11/08(Tue)14:25 No.1317744
    PUBLIC EDUCATION, people. you know how we have schools, that teach people useful things? you know how many places have schools that you MUST go to? they have that. EVERYBODY learns how to control undead, at least a little. if they don't learn the class, they at least learn the spell which should be comparatively easy. I mean, I don't know rocket science, but I could be taught to do one function, and I wouldn't know what it relates to, but I WOULD know it. same principle applies.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:26 No.1317747

    That might be a problem. There's nothing like a flood of opportunistic parasites to really fuck a place up. But that could be solved by strict citizenship laws, again like ancient Greece. In fact the more I think about it, the more I want to live in Zombie Syracuse :(
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:27 No.1317750
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    And now the master plan is finally unveiled.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:29 No.1317759
    I don't know about earlier, but usually people post Touhou pics along with text relevant to the thread, it's an image board after all so there should be images

    like that one anon who gives advice on DnD character builds, he always posts with a Touhou pic, but sticks to whatever the thread was already about

    anyway necromancy. If negative energy is just an energy type (like fire or whatever) skeletons are like constructs, they do what they're told and based on their instructions may be good/evil/neutral.

    If negative energy is ZOMG Evil! Then skeletons without instructions will just start trashing things and aren't very viable as a workforce.

    The other danger is that other countries will be upset. Not because you have skeletons, but because you have a bunch of necromancers, who potentially can create shadows. And since controlling one shadow lets you control all the spawn that shadow makes (and all their spawn, etc in a big pyramid) and because shadows can just sit around inside solid objects other countries actually can't be sure you're not prepping to conquer them at any time.

    That's just too big an uncertainty, so other countries are just going to preemptively attack.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:30 No.1317767

    Yes, that's pretty much my thoughts. Undead slaves would only be fit for the drudge work, freeing even the poorest drone to do something more creative with his time. Even if said creativity only extends to cooking and gardening for the necro-elite.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:31 No.1317770
    And yeah remember that guy who's not me who goes around saging pedophiles who cut and paste from the 3.5 wiki, he's correct most of the time.

    And onto the discussion. I think skeletons are made of bone too.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:31 No.1317772
    to continue my train of thought, so necromancy friendly cities are going to be in remote locations and/or areas where they already hate their neighbors (living next to orcs, drow, whatever)
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:35 No.1317789

    Or well fortified. Syracuse withstood attacks from Carthage and Sparta, and held off Rome for a good long time too.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:35 No.1317793
    Uh, Paladins probably couldn't just fuck up a whole city singlehandedly. They aren't fucking Space Marines...not until they get experienced enough at least.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:37 No.1317802

    I admit I don't know much about D&D, I last played 2nd edition over 10 years ago. From what I've seen, Wizards has made it more like their card game than an rpg, in that every possible option has one or more counters, and combinations of skills/ powers lead to seriously broken loops. So I'm not sure ANY setup would withstand a D&D munchkin attack.
    >> Evil Overlord 03/11/08(Tue)14:37 No.1317803
    But I don't have a blackguard.
    I'm solo :[
    >> Lazy DM V 03/11/08(Tue)14:38 No.1317808
    Well, entropy for one. Those skeletons can't stick around forever... Well, they shouldn't, since people age, but of course common sense doesn't factor into D&D at all times.

    >In D&D, it's because creating undead involves animating a corpse with negative energy (something that has ties to the cosmic force of evil), whereas creating a golem involves animating a statue-like object by binding an elemental spirit to it (something that doesn't really have anything to do with cosmic forces of evil).

    Wait, shouldn't that mean that removing negative energy from the great dark side thingie should be considered good since you're wasting one of "evil's resources", and trapping an elemental be considered kinda evil? Just a thought here.

    There's the other function public education has too, of course, and its original reason for founding in a lot of countries - to keep poor of the street and stop adults from attacking upstanding citizens. Mind, this actually works. But of course, educating the people for something rather than just going "scripture scripture scripture" is better. Still get the same effect, after all.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:38 No.1317810
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    Time to stop grappling with the trolls for a bit and get back on topic...


    Just because of their ties to negative energy, skeletons and zombies are always of Neutral Evil alignment even though they're mindless and incapable of making any moral decisions or even performing any evil acts on their own. You could animate a bunch of skeletons or zombies and use them for extremely moralfaggish acts, yet they would still be of Neutral Evil alignment. Strange, isn't it?
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:38 No.1317812

    The question is: could one Space Marine fuck up a necro city? Those guns fire pretty big bullets, I can't imagine they have more than 20 or so rounds tops.
    >> Salamanders Fanboi !!Wyx1pV1wpO9 03/11/08(Tue)14:39 No.1317815
    power armor
    >> HALMAN 03/11/08(Tue)14:39 No.1317817
    the skeletons are hit by entropy, yes, but they are also being fueled and repaired by negative energy, or some such bullshit, so they stay the same, I think
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:40 No.1317818
    bullets spawn for the Space marine through sheer force of will and faith in the Emperor
    >> HALMAN 03/11/08(Tue)14:40 No.1317821
    well then, we've found the solution to the majority of the problems. public education wins again!
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:41 No.1317822

    You could use skeletons as a firefighting force because they can't be burned. TOO BAD. YOU'RE EVIL.

    You could use mindless undead to keep the peace ("If people start fighting, incapacitate them"). TOO BAD, YOU'RE EVIL.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:41 No.1317824

    Is there any reason you have to use negative energy? Why not use whatever powers Golems, or even positive energy? Hell, invent the Thaumaturgical Alternating Current Machyne that switches between the two, maintaining a perfect neutral balance?
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:41 No.1317826
    By taking the time to post a picture of a child amongst the reposted text from earlier.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:41 No.1317827
    Is a skeleton not entitled to the moisture that condenses on it's skull because it works long hours in a damp area?
    >> HALMAN 03/11/08(Tue)14:42 No.1317832
    well, positive energy makes living things explode if they have too much, and undead with positive energy coming in have a very good chance of exploding in some kinda heal-splosion. also, binding an elemental into an undead wouldn't be cost effective, really. maybe if there was some kinda limiter on energy intake...
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:42 No.1317833

    You might want to phrase that as "if people start fighting, restrain them without injuring them". I mean, ripping their heads off is pretty incapacitating.
    >> HALMAN 03/11/08(Tue)14:43 No.1317837
    no, that's city moisture and it will be collected during the next cleaning for lubrication purposes. All the noblemen love it.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:43 No.1317839
    The LARP I play in, the BBEG rules over an empire that considers undeath a civil good- that is, if you feel old and useless, you can petition the Empire to have your body turned into a lesser undead upon death to help your family. Criminals can be punished with undeath as well- it's considered better than wastefully executing someone who needs to repay society. Ditto monsters- why simply kill a pack of ogres when you can reanimate the corpses and use them for heavy lifting?

    An epic-level necromantic artifact acts as a safeguard from foreign necromancers taking long-term control, and any animated body can act as the Emperor's (who is very much alive, but worships a demon of the undeath domain) eyes or puppet.

    Of course, all that necromancy leaves some nasty negative energy residues...arcane pollution, in other words. And you've gotta find dumping grounds for all that residue before you kill your own Empire. The nearby duchies and kingdoms have noticed a buildup of undead on the borders...
    >> Nyat 03/11/08(Tue)14:43 No.1317840
    Their alignment makes even less sense when you realize that negative energy isn't evil unlike some incorrectly assume (there are good undead, spells that directly channel negative energy aren't classified as evil, the plane of negative energy itself is statted as neutral).
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:45 No.1317848
    Quite. I hate alignment.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:45 No.1317849
    Holy hell.

    You and the pedophiles should get together and have a great ideathon.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:45 No.1317850
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    >Wait, shouldn't that mean that removing negative energy from the great dark side thingie should be considered good since you're wasting one of "evil's resources", and trapping an elemental be considered kinda evil? Just a thought here.

    You're not "removing" any negative energy when you animate an undead (since the Negative Energy Plane is infinite), you're just harnessing it, and it just so happens to have the taint of evil on it. Likewise, the Elemental Plane of Earth has an infinite supply of elemental spirits, so you're not wasting any of its resources by creating a golem.


    >You could use skeletons as a firefighting force because they can't be burned.

    D&D skeletons are immune to cold damage, not fire damage, but I guess you could make a case that they'd be much less likely to catch on fire since they'd have no clothing.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:49 No.1317862
    According to Libre Mortis, you need to bind a soul to even a mindless undead to animate it. Some people go with that interpretation, some don't.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:50 No.1317867
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    Although the Positive Energy Plane and the Negative Energy Plane are both neutral-aligned with respect to planar traits, page 6 of the Book of Exalted Deeds DOES say that positive energy is "closely linked to holy power", so it makes sense for negative energy to be linked to unholy power. Then again, the Book of Exalted Deeds and the Book of Vile Darkness conflict with the existing alignment system a lot, so make of it what you will.

    Oh, and "undead" that are animated through positive energy are called "deathless". The deathless are a whole different creature type.
    >> HALMAN 03/11/08(Tue)14:50 No.1317872
    yeah, but binding a soul is easier than binding an elemental, as shown by how easy it is to make a skeleton compared to a golem.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:52 No.1317881
    But they do look pretty much the same. Unless you're a pussy.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)14:54 No.1317892

    I expect this is how it would be - An Athenian style City State. The majority of the living populace are small land owners - they aren't rich, but they aren't poor. A small, but sizeable number who don't own land either have a trade - smithing, artistry etc, or earn money (as the Athenians did) by being professional jurors or serving in the armed forces (in Athens this was the navy - only landowners were in the army, and were divided into type by how much they earned)

    Menial work such as labour, mining etc is performed by mindless undead.

    A small core of necromancers make up the priestly elite of the city
    >> Lazy DM V 03/11/08(Tue)15:01 No.1317918
    That sounds cool.

    I for one am also a bit reminded of the Aztec Death Cult stuff (by the necromancer priestcaste thing)... Though I can't at the moment recall if that was real or fictional stuff.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)15:05 No.1317930

    Um... Yes. Yes they would. See the post above that details how many undead a single mage can control. They'd have to stop once they reached the limit of how many undead the mages could keep control over.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)15:23 No.1317991

    If that were true, Soul Bind should be able to keep someone from being turned into an undead creature too instead of just keeping them from being raised/reincarnated/resurrected/revivified/cloned.
    >> Nyat 03/11/08(Tue)16:38 No.1318265
    >>Oh, and "undead" that are animated through positive energy are called "deathless". The deathless are a whole different creature type.

    I am aware of that. There are however good undead, not deathless, undead. Take a look at the good liches or note that ghosts can be of any alignment.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)16:48 No.1318308
    Because it is easier to control a horde of slaves than it is to control a horde of zombies.

    You can only control one HD of undead per level that you have, sometimes you can double this, but even then unless you happen to have some epic necromancers hanging around with nothing better to do it isn't feasible.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)16:52 No.1318330

    It's Evil with a capital E, right down to the twisted morality. But it works. During the day, the living do their work. During the night, the undead and necromancers do theirs, a necromantic "third shift" as it were.

    Magically shielded from sunlight, undead are used as heavies/reinforcements for living military and guard units too. Greater (intelligent) undead often serve as worst-case-scenario shock troops, eternal archivists/guardians for sensitive information, or even living nobles/servants granted a second unlife as a reward for loyal service to the Empire.

    Think about it this way. Replace the word "undead" with "robot" or "construct" or "golem", and think about what a society could do. This happens to be the evil-aligned version.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)16:55 No.1318339
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    If you're just animating skeletons and zombies by casting Animate Dead or Create (Greater) Undead, then you can control 4 HD worth of undead per caster level:

    >The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. (You choose which creatures are released.) If you are a cleric, any undead you might command by virtue of your power to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the limit.

    It works differently from turning/rebuking undead, you see.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)16:57 No.1318344
    Still, this is not enough undead.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)16:57 No.1318346
    meh. I thought this was about fantasy in general, not D&D. Sage for boring broken game designed for children and WoWfags.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)16:58 No.1318352
    And then all hell breaks loose when something happens to one of the people who animated the zombies and nobody can control them.

    Rebuking is the safer way.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)16:59 No.1318355
    Remember that you're on /tg/, so all fantasy is D&D by default unless otherwise specified.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)16:59 No.1318356
    This isn't 4th edition yet.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)17:00 No.1318360
    How did you not notice
    in the OP's post?
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)17:03 No.1318369
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    Nobody really knows what happens to animated skeletons and zombies once their original animator kicks the bucket. Although they have a Neutral Evil alignment, they are mindless and don't have any instincts to follow, so my best guess is that they just wander around doing nothing until someone else takes control of them and gives them commands.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)17:08 No.1318396

    As an example, sure. I was thinking more along the lines of Ars Magica or even Elder Scrolls (and yes, I know ES was originally a D&D campaign, but its got very little to do with D&D as it is now).
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)17:11 No.1318413

    Well, the pedophilia and the Elder Scrolls are going hand in hand like "wow".
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)17:15 No.1318435

    The fuck are you talking about? Not everyone ITT is the samefag, moran. Go troll /v/, I heard they enjoy it.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)17:17 No.1318445
    More likely they will follow their last order endlessly, which can cause severe problems.
    >> Lazy DM V 03/11/08(Tue)17:19 No.1318453
    Or Awesome. Right, I'm ordering a skeleton to start digging down right now.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)17:20 No.1318457
    Listen, I never said anything other than elder scrolls and pedophilia and other shitty concepts go hand in hand.

    Just quit posting pictures of children all the time and nobody's going to mention that you're posting pictures of children all the time.
    >> red black spiderman !!gmZ7B9l1yE+ 03/11/08(Tue)17:26 No.1318473
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    It would be incredibly awesome if someone posted a touhou-Elder Scrolls picture right now. There is a touhou pic of everything, right?
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)18:10 No.1318632
    what if it is more of a religious thing?
    like, it is considered an honour to be chosen for reanimation. the priests spend hours embalming the corpse and dressing it up in cermonial clothing. The ppl see them as the city guardians or ancestors that walk among them. they are revered for doing the heavy work that keeps the city up and running instead of looked down on for doing the menial labour.

    the necros in this setting would be more priests than anything else.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)18:37 No.1318739
    As long as they stick to 1HD or less undead it shouldn't be too hard to get rid of them if it's needed. Also if they're mixed a bit (a few from each master) the still controlled ones could take care of the uncontrolled ones.
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)20:04 No.1319079
    If a bunch of skeletons did go rogue upon the death of their creator, any cleric could deal with them quite easily
    >> Anonymous 03/11/08(Tue)22:42 No.1319771
    Thanks /tg/, you just gave me the inspiration to start DMing again. I'll have an independant city-state in Eberron that acts as a safe haven for necromancers who wish to practice their art. With all those necros in one place, undead replace common laborers, crime virtually disappears (offenders become undead servitors), and necromatic research advances at breakneck speed, discovering such things as incarnum.

    The government commissions a colossal skeletal guardian to be animated (An advanced Dragon Turtle or something) and enhanced by advanced necromatic research. Nearby nations catch wind of this necromatic super weapon and send the PCs to investigate. It'll be great.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)00:55 No.1320465
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    >necromatic research advances at breakneck speed, discovering such things as incarnum.

    Why incarnum, specifically? And since they're necromancers, they'll most likely be studying necrocarnum, but that stuff is supposedly far more evil than even regular necromancy. In fact, you can't use necrocarnum soulmelds if you don't have an evil alignment.

    >The government commissions a colossal skeletal guardian to be animated (An advanced Dragon Turtle or something)

    They could always metaphorically glue together skeletons to create an advanced-HD Charnel Hound or Necronaut. Think about it: there's a mountain of bones lying in the center of the city, and it rises up into an undead juggernaut whenever the city needs to be defended.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)12:46 No.1322656
    I see nothing sexual about these images. The fact that YOU do leads me to believe that YOU'RE the pedophile around these parts.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)13:05 No.1322719
    Somehow reminds of that Matrix vg where all the smiths merge into a kind of giant-rubble-smith.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)13:10 No.1322735
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    This is why.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)14:25 No.1323118
    You can still be Lawful/Neutral Good and be fine with undead. See: >>1317527
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)14:28 No.1323138
    Doesn't matter. Pelor hates undead
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)14:29 No.1323146
    And you've got the gods of the dead/undead backing you up.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)14:45 No.1323243
    This means that you are now busy making war, not pyramids.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)14:52 No.1323280
    >>So yes, you can be a Lawful Good paladin who's totally cool with the concept of undead being used to further the progress of society.

    Not totally cool. The people of Karrnath are in general, sort of disturbed by the fact that they use Undead, but they see the practical choice.

    It's a necessary Evil.

    The Bone Knight prestige class you mentioned requires the character to be of non-Good alignment.

    In fact, the nation of Karrnath has a long standing enmity with their neighbor Thrane because Thrane is a theocracy whose tenets preach LG values and the eradication of Evil (i.e, anything that pings Evil). When dealing with people and those that can change, they're relatively peaeful. When it comes to fighting stuff that's made of Evil like Undead and Evil Outsiders though, all bets are off.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)14:53 No.1323286
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    Even in settings like Forgotten Realms where deities take an extremely interventionist and hands-on approach, a city doesn't get its ass smited just for practicing beliefs that conflict with a particular deity's dogma. With all the myriad deities out there (FR alone has 100+ gods in the continent of Faerun alone, but it still applies in settings with relatively few deities such as Eberron), every city is bound to have at least one deity that hates its guts.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)14:56 No.1323292
    what the hell is world deletion
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)14:57 No.1323298

    Furthermore, the Undead ranks in Karrnath are not a common thing. They appeared when Vol (the Lich Queen) began spreading the influence of her cult in the region. The people were also in a desperate war.

    One of the first things the King did when the war ended was mothball a bunch of the Undead troops, and officially denounce the Blood of Vol. Prominent organizations dedicated to its teachings are branded traitors and terrorists.

    There are groups within the government that still continue to increase the numbers of Undead, but they do this out of the eyesight of the majority of the populous and under the nose of the ruling administration.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)14:59 No.1323305
    unless there is some remnant of the person's soul or spirit remaining in the undead, or it was their specific wish that their remnants not be reanimated, i see no moral problems with utilizing undead, and if some gods don't like it they are obviously uptight moralfags
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)15:00 No.1323310
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    The Bone Knight prestige class actually has no alignment restrictions, and the "Bone Knights in the World" section calls out that you can be a good-aligned Bone Knight. Hell, it even has class features specifically for paladins (and not just ex-paladins), such as adding spells to your paladin spell list.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)15:04 No.1323330
    you are forgetting the stupid and arbitrary nature of good and evil in D&D
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)15:07 No.1323339
    negative energy, goddammit.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)15:08 No.1323345
    undead give off a sort of magical pollution? oh dear, do you have any recommendations on how to best regulate this
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)15:11 No.1323359
    slavemasters keeping slaves in line have less power and changes of turning on highmasters... nercomancers massed controlling undeath have power to try take control away from high elite... and why would high elite use their time to control undeath in boring labor roles... if they instead can just have "low midclass" of slavewhippers ordering slaves...
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)15:13 No.1323374
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    Mindless undead do not have souls, they're just animated through negative energy. Because negative energy has ties to the cosmic force of evil, most mindless undead have an always-evil alignment. However, they cannot think for themselves and are incapable of making moral decisions, so their evil alignment only matters for spells that affect evil creatures.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)15:14 No.1323377
    and also undeath dont work that way... pile of slaves will grow over time if not whipped too much... group of undeath does not grow if it does not do "living->death->undeath"... so there is still need for massed living to produce undeath... and then... why have undeath do work when they can just make sure living does work...
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)15:14 No.1323379
    undead are evil cuz it sez in the book, fuckos, they're fueled by arbitrarily evil energies and moralfags the world over get butthurt about their very existence

    then the guards and security who would otherwise be keeping an eye on tons of human slaves will be keeping an eye on a few necromancers
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)15:15 No.1323381
    >>The Bone Knight prestige class actually has no alignment restrictions, and the "Bone Knights in the World" section calls out that you can be a good-aligned Bone Knight. Hell, it even has class features specifically for paladins (and not just ex-paladins), such as adding spells to your paladin spell list.

    Ah, yeah, you're right. I was looking at the Paladin conversion stuff and thinking that it was like the Blackgaurd/Gray Gaurd.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)15:17 No.1323391

    The spell has the evil descriptor.

    It's not just that negative energy has traditional ties to Evil. The spells that create Undead are themselves Evil.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)15:17 No.1323394
    the living can work too, just without the necessity of ENSLAVING AND WHIPPING THEM, which is a far more evil act than using a volunteer's leftover body parts to build what essentially amounts to a robot
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)15:18 No.1323400
    >>unless there is some remnant of the person's soul or spirit remaining in the undead, or it was their specific wish that their remnants not be reanimated, i see no moral problems with utilizing undead, and if some gods don't like it they are obviously uptight moralfags

    That's what Evil folks in D&D say. And hey, to be fair, they do have a point.

    That's why people in D&D fight over Good and Evil. Both sides have their merits, and both sides suck on occasion.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)15:19 No.1323408
    What about these spells earns them an Evil descriptor? Do you have to sacrifice a baby to make them work? Make a deal with the devil?

    If not, then it's just more "evil because it says so"

    The true evilness or goodness of magic lies in how it is APPLIED
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)15:22 No.1323416
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    >Blackgaurd/Gray Gaurd

    Take note that the Gray Guard prestige class is quite different from the Blackguard prestige class, in that you still have to be Lawful Good to be a Gray Guard, unlike the Evil requirement of the Blackguard which requires you to fall if you're a paladin.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)15:24 No.1323426

    Evil and good are actual forces in DnD, not theoretical forces. If a DM wants to apply good/evil subjectively, they can rule 0 it to hell and back, but otherwise means overrules result.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)15:25 No.1323433

    Pretty much. It's not about morality. Some things are good and some things are Evil. It's like asking why Fireball deals "fire damage". It's not like it actually behaves according to real world fire.

    I don't recall people complaining about Hallow or Deathless spells having the [Good] descriptor.

    And the "application" doesn't matter when the spell has a descriptor. Using a spell that creates Undead, no matter what you use them for afterwards, is a cosmically Evil act in D&D.

    You can dislike it. You can change it to Neutral, or even Good. But any thing you do to ascribe (or not ascribe) any kind of Alignment is just as arbitrary.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)15:25 No.1323434
    so basically >>1323330 wins the day unless the DM houserules things
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)15:26 No.1323436
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    The Animate Dead and Create (Greater) Undead spells have the [evil] descriptor simply because they channel negative energy to give something a persistent semblance of (un)life, unlike the Inflict and Harm spells which just channel negative energy for a one-shot damaging touch.
    >> Manyfist !!PTENINBEFgd 03/12/08(Wed)15:29 No.1323442
    The king (which is a Vampire) still has a huge standing army of undead. Even if he denounced Blood of Vol, they are still there, and he knows it. Blood of Vol is a large cult/religion, it can't be oust out that easily. They still have a love/hate relationship.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)15:29 No.1323443
    Back for some more stylin' pedophilin' huh?

    Well done.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)15:30 No.1323446
    and this negative energy, why is channeling it like that bad?
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)15:30 No.1323447

    Yeah. See, the game only works when people can generally agree on a shared fantasy. The alignment system is part of that fantasy. It's not some intuitive reflection of everyone's real world morality.

    It's an artifical construct that's part of the game world, and only works within it.
    >> Kitty-Moogle-Chan 03/12/08(Wed)15:30 No.1323449

    QFT. I dunno about you, but if I'm undead I don't want to piss off that many clerics.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)15:31 No.1323451
    lol nerds arguin about fantasy morals
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)15:33 No.1323461
    lol and accusin each other of bein pedos
    >> Manyfist !!PTENINBEFgd 03/12/08(Wed)15:36 No.1323476
    Heres my idea on a city or country that was originally a city of living with necromancer elites that turned to a city/country where living are in a reversed role.

    Bodies rot and disappear,if you have an entire population and people die everyday. Why waste a natural resource? Those who don't want their body created to serve the community, could opt to have a cremation (would be very expensive).

    Likewise I am sure if you want to extend your life, you could pay for the Necropolitan ritual. Which I would assume the non Magical nobles would have done. Wealthy merchants as well. I could quickly see the entire city/nation turn from living with undead to Undead living with the living.

    Being alive in this city/nation would make you a second class citizen. However I would imagine rules and regulation for going undead. Such as you must be at a certain age before going under the transformation to an Undead of your choosing (with limits, such as you can't be Lich if you don't have the magical power to trap your soul in a phylactery).

    Peasants (theres still going to be poor people, just not as poor as the peasant in the following county/country) would live their entire lives and when they croak they are taken to a certain section of the city in which they are cleaned by Ghouls & Ghasts. Then when they are done your skeleton will be bleached, and reanimated.

    Necromancy isn't evil, unless you use it for evil. Criminals (only the living can be sent to jail) would be executed and turned into a Zombie (few would be 'allowed' to be awakened, which is the most extreme punishment).

    For an Army Karranth Zombies and Skeletons would fill the ranks. Maybe with a few living (or higher up undead) as the Officers. A few Dread Necros/Bone Knights would also fill the ranks as artillery/calvary/Medics. They can heal the undead, and fill the ranks of their army with the fallen soldiers of the enemy.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)15:37 No.1323479
    >>The king (which is a Vampire) still has a huge standing army of undead.

    Which he keeps hidden, and isn't trying to expand that fast. He maintains them for the same reason everyone else tolerates them- because it bolsters the nation's national defenses. Meanwhile, his underlings are trying to expand those forces in a way that he would not approve of if he knew about it.

    >>Even if he denounced Blood of Vol, they are still there, and he knows it. Blood of Vol is a large cult/religion, it can't be oust out that easily. They still have a love/hate relationship.

    He knows he can't just wipe it out, but he doesn't support it and actively fights against it and tries to limit its influence. The only use he still has for the Blood of Vol are his personal followers, and that's largely because being cultists means they'll stupidly follow him and sacrifice their Blood to him.

    In his ideal world, he wouldn't have to rely on Undead to keep his nation strong, he wouldn't be a Vampire, and the Blood of Vol (along with Vol) would all be gone.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)15:39 No.1323486

    That's the thing. They aren't morals. D&D morality is relativistic. "Good" and "Evil" are simply words that describe arbitrary collections of ideas.

    However, they're neither "right" nor "wrong", since following either blindly leads to destruction.
    >> Manyfist !!PTENINBEFgd 03/12/08(Wed)15:40 No.1323488
    Nor do I want to piss off the largest collection of necromancers on the continent. Especially the ones who gave you the army of undead soldiers, and can as quickly take it away.
    >> Anonymous 03/12/08(Wed)15:46 No.1323512
    >>Nor do I want to piss off the largest collection of necromancers on the continent. Especially the ones who gave you the army of undead soldiers, and can as quickly take it away.

    He doesn't need the Blood of Vol to make Undead anymore. He needed the secrets at first, but after Vol gave him the Undead, cured his plagues, brought his people food, etc, and then turned him into a Vampire, he turned on her.

    She's not welcome in Karrnath. The Emerald Claw- once a Karrnathi knightly ordered dedicated to the Blood of Vol- is now labeled an enemy of the state. He actively encourages the people to follow the Soverign Host and denounces the Blood of Vol. They're a minority in the country- albiet a vocal and more organized minority.
    >> Manyfist !!PTENINBEFgd 03/12/08(Wed)15:50 No.1323532
    Of course, he keeps most his affliction a secret, if the other nations knew he was a vampire impersonating his Grandson (or was it great-grandson), he'll most likely loose his kingdom. Also true to the fact his underlings are trying to improve the army, which I am sure they are thinking of using to stage a Coup. Its one the things I love about Eberron, its what real people would do if they had access to magic. They scheme against each other, they backstab one another, they set up alliances then break them.

    I don't think the king uses Blood of Vol in that way. I think he has a Harlem in which he feeds from, but just enough to slate his thirst and not to kill the host. I know he actively fights against Blood of Vol, but they still have a love/hate relationship. They still use each other in a ever lasting game of chess.
    >> Manyfist !!PTENINBEFgd 03/12/08(Wed)15:58 No.1323556
    I never stated he uses them to create more undead. However they still know the secrets of creating them, and could take that way (destroying his army with lets say a magical plague against the undead that serve the military). He doesn't want to piss them off too much, even if they are an enemy of the state, the Emerald Claw's reach is far and long reaching. I am very sure he knows Blood of Vol still exists in some form in his nation, but won't take more extreme actions (like going around and burning cultist). As I said he's playing chess with Blood of Vol, so far he has the upper hand. Making a series of first moves against his opponent (denouncing them, making them enemy of the state, encouraging the following of Sovereign Hosts).

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