why

he sounds like probably a better player than you

Being forced to work for an authority that he later discovers to be corrupt and opressive. Make him choose between his code and virtue.

>>1694622

I'm the DM, numbnuts. The point of the exercise is to challenge the paladin.

>>1694622
Agreed. Why even try to force that?

You want a Lawful Good paladin? I've got two words for you:

Knight. Templar.
Your paladin should care more for the greater good than in individual life. While going out of the way to save someone isn't something a paladin should ignore, sometimes you have to cut off the arm to stave off infection.

Evil is the infection, the world is the body. You're the scalpel, so start cutting.

>>1694627
There are other ways to challenge a paladin other then putting in danger of breaking his oath.

>>1694610
Don't be a dick, challenge the Paladin's ability to help people. Not his ability to stay a Paladin.

>>1694627
No, it sounds like you're a dick and trying to force the Paladin to fall

If he's really intelligent as you say, test him by issuing challenges that go beyond the adhering code that any dipshit player can follow. Test his faith and virtues at their core level.

>>1694610
This is why we can't have nice things, like players who actually roleplay and have interesting characters that are not one dimensional fucked up people. How about you just make a nice story, or perhaps have a challanging foe for the party to overcome rather than pick on the person playing the paladin.

You're a bad DM for trying to screw the paladin into falling. Stop now, let someone else take the chair, you're unfit.

>>1694661

But don't most people think that playing a paladin means you're supposed to be picked on?

>>1694634
Seriously.

Falling is not the final destination of every paladin. Don't try to force it if that doesn't seem to be the direction the player wants to go.

Well, I know if I were in the paladin's place, I'd want my moral fiber to be tested. I mean, isn't that why roleplayers play paladins? To see how the DM can think of new ways to test their character?

I think maybe one too many of the people in this thread fell as Paladins...

>>1694670
That's the problem. Most DMs are fucking retarded or something, and think because a Paladin has a code, it's the DM's duty to make them fall.

>>1694670
No one picks a class because they want to get picked on. Otherwise, Retarded Pig Farmer would be the most popular class ever.

I thought that the point of RPing was to have fun. Maybe that character wants to actually play a good guy.

>>1694678

see

>>1694687

>>1694678
No. Go die.

You are a terrible dm.

Damn, these threads make me think my group is one of the ONLY ones that doesn't make 'fuck the paladin' part of their mantra.

Have the paladin's wife turn out to be an evil lich.

If he doesn't smite her he falls.

If he smites her she TEARS OUT HIS HEART

>>1694678
No. Not everyone who plays a Paladin wants to be tested. Personally, it gets on my nerves when DMs try to force me into a situation where I have to fall whenever I play a Paladin.

Everytime a GM wants to challege a paladin, it's always in terms of non-combat challenge.

For once, just once, why not challenge a paladin with a really fucking hard monster to kill, instead of "So there's this woman who was raped by orcs..."

HOLY SHIT IT'S A PALADIN HE MUST FALL BECAUSE HE'S A PALADIN! HOLY SHIT!

>>1694678
No, most people who play the paladin do it to do just that. Not to fall, but to play a paladin. A good guy, a genuinely good guy for whom the only end goal is being just and fair.

Would you say you play a cleric to be morally tested? Unlikely. Clerics have the same stringent restrictions on their alignment, though they don't necessarily fall they will lose their power if they violate their god's commands. And if done consistently or if they fall one (or two if directly on their god's alignment) steps away their god forsakes them completely.

But no one tries to make the cleric fall. Everyone HAS to make the paladin fall, but DMs don't go actively hunting down difficult Catch 22 moral decisions for a cleric. But a paladin? Holy shit, fucking paladin!

>>1694721

Like the one tale of the level 7 Paladin against an epic level Orc cleric? Or whatever it was. Been a while since I read it.

The fact that a paladin has a code is reason enough to test it. Any roleplayer worth his salt should welcome a challenge such as that, and not just paladin. If you've got a rogue who's always looking out for himself, test that against an NPC he likes. You've got a monk with Vow of Pacifism or whatnot, have him placed in a situation where the only way out is by breaking that vow and experiencing the ramifications. And I don't mean the "Oh no, I'm now debuffed" ramifications, I mean the "Oh, my character has vowed never to kill a living being, and has now killed." ramifications.

The idea that a paladin loses powers after a fall is just some stupid gameplay gimmick that was created to keep players in check and make things simple for foolish DMs. The paladin falling should have more than "Oh, I can't smite evil" it should be something more along the lines of a genuine moral change, and have genuine in character consequences.

Leave that poor paladin alone. Do you try to force your druids to teach the druidic language or trick your monks into being chaotic so they have to change class? You should feel ashamed of yourself.

For fuck's sake.
If the paladin is played well, let it continue to be played well.
If he fucks it up and goes into Lawful Stupid, then you can do whatever you want.
But don't go out of your way to make him lose all of his useful class features and ruin his character just because "paladins are meant to fall".

>>1694730
Except that's not how it is. When a DM says he wants to "morally challenge" a paladin, he so rarely means "I want to make it so that sometimes doing the right thing requires self sacrifice." He means "how can I make the most contrived situation possible to ensure the maximum paladin falling efficiency." which is what is more than likely occurring here.

>>1694735

I do. I never pulled off the druid one, but I got a monk to change into CN and end up committing suicide by charging a pit fiend. Good times.

>>1694723
>Would you say you play a cleric to be morally tested?
Yes. As I said, every class--no, every character-- should have their way of life tested. Roleplaying is about more than "Oh, let's go kill sum kobolds guise!"

It should be about a group of adventurers walking the earth. They should make mistakes and learn from them, they shouldn't just be killing orcs and taking treasure. A roleplaying game is like a story. And a story sucks without character growth.

>>1694741
Oh, well in that case, Fuck the DM.

I want moral challenges for every character, so long as they aren't solely contrived to make me fall. As I've said before, the PCs are Big Damned Heroes, and as DM it's your job to engineer Big Damned Heroes moments, and one way to do so is by having them go against their beliefs and come out on top.

>>1694747
That part was more a rant directed at the people that masturbate over giving Paladins 'difficult decisions'. By which I mean Choice A leads to falling and Choice B leads to crippling and falling.

This is why, when I want to play a Paladin, I just cross class a fighter and a cleric.

Paladins shouldn´t fall just because, goddamnit.

If you want to challenge Paladins, give them true challenges. The Paladin´s real challenge resides in self-sacrifice, not in putting him in catch-22s. Paladins in movies and books are Paladins not because they obey retarded rules, but because they have a moral standard they respect and enforce UPON THEMSELVES FIRST.

Challenge the Paladin´s courage, self-sacrifice and strength of all kinds (brute force, mental resilience to corruption, wishes for retaliation, etc).


Paladins are meant to be the wall that stands between the weak and the evil. If you want to challenge the Paladin, you should be making him or her struggle to remain in his post no matter what is thrown at him. Putting him into a position where he is a wall between two evils is just you being a son of a bitch, and not the good kind.

>>1694741
Thank you. It's never about "is the Paladin truly Paladin material" and more of a "How can I force him into losing all his powers."

I actually don't mind when a Paladin's mettle is tested, to see if he's really all that he should be. Not that he's forced into some sort of convoluted catch 22 where in it's fall or fall.

>>1694747
It's one thing to test a paladin. It's another thing to set out with the clear goal of making them fall, which pretty much takes all the fun out of playing.

OP's post might as well have been: "One of my players is having fun playing a paladin. How can I prevent this?"

so all the other players are just doing the standard rpg routine, but being a paladin automatically means you have to be "challenged" to keep your fucking class?

>>1694752
Except that's what the OP is basically saying. He wants to put the Paladin in danger of falling with "the nastier the better." Basically saying that he wants the Paladin to fall. Hell, he even owned up to multiple attempts earlier to force the Paladin into falling.

>>1694755
You know, I think that being new to roleplaying means that I'm naive to your ways...

There shouldn't be a "Door number 1 leads to a fallen paladin; Door number 2 leads to a fallen paladin; Door number 3 leads to a fallen paladin" situation. In fact, I don't know fully how things like Vow of Pacifism work, but if you're force to kill someone--say they've got your nakama tied up and on a death machine, and the only way to save them is by killing him and interrupting the psychometrics of the machine-- then the results shouldn't be as simple as "Oh, you're no longer Lawful Good because you killed someone"

It should be more real and emotional. Then again, its this naive way of thinking that causes me to imagine a situation where a paladin is forced to break his moral code and now acts like Achilles in His Tent, depressed over his action or inaction, and not just some player BAAAWWing over how he doesn't get to do his paladin moves anymore.

>>1694730

Those aren't challenges, those are no-win situations that a GM crafted to force the player to break his his vow.

A challenge would be a situation where breaking his vow seems to be the easiest, simplist, and maybe even best option, but is NOT the only option the character has.

>>1694791
did you just say nakama instead of comrades, party, or friends?
WEEABOO.

>>1694788
It has to be said that I saw "Paladin, not Lawful Stupid, tactics" and the picture, and then I just posted >>1694632 maybe I should have read to the end...

OP, you're a dick. Pick on another class.

>>1694800
Well, not being of the DnD mold, I say any DM who obeys the "You fall you lose powers" rule should have his books burned.

>>1694804
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Nakama
not the first time I've used the term

>>1694791
Which is not how it is. See, that's the mythical mystic land of role playing where alignment is secondary to action, where the DM doesn't trying to screw people over because they didn't do exactly what he intended, or because they're some class he mildly dislikes or whatever.

That's the mythical land where every character is interesting, no one knows who the hell Mary Sue is, and if you threw a stone you'd hit a thousand and one characters with genuine backgrounds filled with emotional depth and still remain human. Or humanesque, in some cases.

This is the mythical land where 'minmax' is an after thought. Where cross classing is for fun and not for breaking the game. Where chaotic evil isn't 'kill everything in sight then rape the corpse'. When EVIL isn't 'I wear black and occasionally kick puppies' but 'I can be the nicest person you know... if you do what I say. You cross me, and I will make sure you forget what it meant to be happy. Within the legal limitations and in such a way that no matter what you do you can't touch me'.

Where lawful good isn't 'Hurr state says evil must follow!' but 'The state says its evil, and while I believe in order, I know these people are not evil. Good overrides the state here, and a new order must be established in the name of what is right and fair.'

But we don't live in that world. And you're lucky as hell if you find that group.

>>1694820

Why? If a paladin has a code he has to obey, why should breaking it not incur falling?

Edward, you and I are just too good for /tg/. Let's elope and start our own imageboard.

>>1694828
>doesn't trying

Also, it appears to be a land where my English fucking sucks. Isn't trying *

>>1694820
You should post less.

This is why I love Complete Scoundrel.

DM: You lose your abilites cus I forced you into a catch 22 bullshit situation.
Me: Fuck you, imma Grey Guard!

And I continue to fight evil the only way some evil can be fought.

>>1694829
if you break a law, does it incur jail time? if you miss a class, are you failed for tardiness? one breach of conduct does not a blackguard make.
>>1694820
I use "you fall, you lose powers," but I only use it in actual cases of FALLING. Like, you fucking murder innocents and shit. You do something against your code, you may be in danger of falling, you may not use your powers due to RP reasons, or what-have-you, but damn if I just do "you slipped up, now your powers are gone."

>>1694828
In that case it doesn't matter anyway. Falling is just losing the 2 level dip you made for divine grace until you find a priest.

>>1694829
It should incur falling, but there shouldn't be some magical power loss. It should be a character driven reason of "I am the paragon of justice." Not, "ah man, if I do that I'll lose Smite Evil!"

>>1694828
That post makes me cry manly tears.

>>1694820
Fair enough, I at times have been guilty at jumping the gun to reply. And I for most part actually agree that all character should have their morality tested. Actually, one of my favorite memories of D&D was when the DM had us all pass through a gate of some kind, then he pulled each one of us aside one by one and gave us all a different moral test.

I always liked mine. I had been contact by a cultist who told me that the secrets to the world's greatest treasure would be mine if I was willing to make a sacrifice. He had prepared a small child to be sacrificed. He handed me a pulsating evil weapon and told me that a sacrifice must be made.

/tg/ - "Paladins must fall"

>>1694854
and I bet doing so wouldn't have ROBBED YOU OF YOUR CLASS FEATURES.

The thing about Paladins players should remember is that it's always about the means, not the ends. Like in KotOR for instance. Revan fell to the darkside. He wanted to help the Republic by either strengthening them or taking over and building them up to protect the galaxy. But despite what he wanted, which was good, he did evil to achieve that end. A Paladin must use good means for a good end.

>>1694866

I don't think it would have, since that only happens for Paladins.

>>1694866
No. That was the beauty of it.

Only person who ran that risk was our Cleric. He didn't tell me the details, but basically it came down to what was more important: Doing the right thing, or obeying his god.

>>1694879
I kind of figured 'the ends do NOT justify the means' was always implied to people who know jack shit about Paladins.

>>1694879
D&D's morality is set in stone by the gods, Matt.

>>1694879
and if he can do neither, he must do nothing.
They're deontologists. They can't lie, but if they can tell the truth and send guards to kill an innocent or lie and mislead them, he has to say nothing, even if it'll get him killed.
As DM, you need to understand that these situations will happen, but damned if lying once will make them lose their powers. On the other hand, you also have to watch that every single scene doesn't become a morality play centered on the paladin.
If you can't do that, give your DMing material to someone else and learn to do it better before you try again.

>>1694886

Plus most Gods(DMs) are emotionally stunted 15 year olds who think black'n'grim is the only thing that's cool.

>>1694886
No, the gods have nothing to do with morality. It's an elemental force. The gods have no control over what is and is not good.

>>1694886
Fuck the core rules. Rule 0 trumps it all.

How stupid.

>>1694886
And the Zeroth law states that the GM's word is God

And I state again that it's possible to have a villainous Paladin.

Lawful alignment holds the good of all and the sanctity of order above all else.
Good is holding others above yourself.

By seeing the bigger picture a paladin becomes a Knight Templar. If Evil must be done, let it be done in the service of Good. If Evil deeds are the only way to maintain the order of Law and keep Good safe, then Evil deeds must be done. The ends do justify the means.

A man who slays all who oppose him and who threatens to destroy the world, and yet does so not for his own power or gain, but that of the world and it's stability is Lawful Good. In fact, a Knight Templar is the best kind of paladin. Someone who knows that the deeds they do are Evil, but that the Evil they do is what will make the world a better place.

If Evil can do Good deeds, why can't Good do Evil deeds?

>>1694909
actually, morality is completely dependent on whose morality it is. morality is not good-evil law-chaos. those are elemental forces. morality is a set of social conduct made by the community one lives in.

>>1694951
I should also point out that no matter how many times that belief results in the term "aspie" being thrown around, that a handful of genuine character is worth more than a whole barrel of shoehorned core rules.

>>1694951

Because it's retarded and leads to really shitty storylines? Besides, what's the point of playing a paladin who does evil things? That's bullshit, it's been bullshit throughout history whenever that old trope gets tried.

>>1694951
That's a long philosophical debate. However, in general game terms, the good that evil does is not somehow tainted. It's a good action not one made evil by proxy. And the same applies for the opposite. However good their intentions might be, their actions are still evil.

>>1694962
That's why I alternatively loathe and love the Dungeons and Dragons alignment system. It can introduce such metaphysical moral quandaries.
It places everything into neat little groups based on actions,
And yet... it places everything into neat little groups based on actions.

>>1694886
My name's not Matt...

>>1694962
What he said.

>>1694961
What's the matter, idea of a villain not in it for himself too DEEP for you?

>>1694978
Don't lie, Matt, it's not nice.

>>1694951
...what? Evil is CONSTANTLY shown as easy. The character you described is LN. Good is based on duty, not on the ends. it's deontological, not motherfucking consequentialist. Your character is LN, as is the Punisher, as are any organizations that kill and oppress for an actually perceived greater good.
D&D alignments have a lot to do with motives, sure, but also actions. Being good doesn't mean being nice, yes, but it means not being evil. Being evil doesn't mean being an asshole, but it means doing everything one can to maximize gain to oneself and possibly the few people one cares about. Neutrality is probably most common in the world for a reason: it's easy, and requires no commitment in either way.
You're seriously misrepresenting alignments here. Now I must nap.
>>1694956
technically, that's ethics, not morals.

Paladin tests that I've come across in my travels are usually pretty crappy. Generally because its "Hurr, must make Paladin fall, Durr". Though the better ones I've seen are things like, infants of monsters/ 'evil' races. Is it wrong to kill them now to stop a potential greater evil later on? Does that override the fact that they are innocent now? Having enemies that surrender is one I've come across while playing Lawful Good, in a more civilized setting, when they give up they're for going to trial and a good hanging not for the rest of the PC's to brutally torture. Last one should have already been mentioned is the corrupt/evil overlords. As a paragon of Justice you can't just leave it be, but what can you do about it? Instigate a rebellion and risk open warfare? Sanction assassination attempts and try and instigate a coup? Internal reform?

Still, such things are only really a consideration for those who actually Role Play, which is unfortunately something of a rarity.

>>1694951

This is exactly why D&D's paladin code is such bullshit. It doesn't allows for those situations or even want to admit they exist. They gave the entire class a one size fits all code of conduct no matter what god or purpose they're sworn to.

Another fun example: Going strictly by the rules, a paladin sworn to a LN god (like Helm or somebody)could actually fall, and lose the powers granted to them by their god, by doing something their own fucking god ordered them to do.

>>1694956
Unless you're an ubermensch like yours truly.

>>1694996

That's an awesome idea for screwing over a paladin, actually.

>>1694988
>Your character is LN, as is the Punisher
The Punisher is in it for himself though.

>Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
Betraying everything you hold dear sounds like a pretty big personal sacrifice.
>>1694990
Well, the fact that there are infants and the fact that the infants are innocent blows a huge hole in "Always Chaotic Evil. ALWAYS"

>>1695011
thats why in 4e alignments arent going to be attributed to everything like they were.
because that sort of quandary doesnt happen. if a paladin is struggling, he just uses detect evil, then proceeds to stab the baby goblin in the face.

>>1695032
>>1695011
the Punisher...do you READ comics? No, the punisher, though his motivations are unclear at times, does what he does because there are some really bad people out there, people who deserve to die. His life sucks, but he does it anyway because in some way, the world might be better off if he punishes criminals.
and doing evil for the greater good isn't good. betraying your moral principles is in itself a...
GODDAMMIT. I need a nap. I'm done. I'd keep going, but damned if I'm not done with philosophy for the time being.

>>1695036
>>1695032
enjoy your nap. what are you, 7?

>>1695032
The punisher still is LN. Good characters try to resort only to as much violence as is necessary to defend life.

>>1695042
I'm 22, and tired as fuck.

>>1695036

Eh, The Punisher's CE anyway. The man's a murdering psychopath, no matter how you try to draw on platitudes about it.

>>1695048

Lawful evil. He has reasons for every life he takes. Joker is Chaotic Evil.

>>1695054

How about we split the difference and just call it NE?

>>1695036
The Punisher is in it for himself. He may justify his actions by saying he doesn't want what happened to him to happen to others. Those reasons may even be true. But his primary reason is that he enjoys killing.

And The Punisher is no Paladin. Captain America is a Paladin. And, Captain America remained Lawful Good while fighting his own government, effectively, while fighting his God.

>>1694730
it is fags like you as GM's or as other players that make people not want to be a Paladin

if a char gets a vow, that means that they want to follow that vow. not be stuck in a situation where they just became perma gimped and lost out on a feat.

alot of people play paladins to be a good guy. not to have some dickwad make their person fail.

>>1695060
LN. he spares innocents, will sacrifice his life to save children, and will not stray from that. However, he does torture and kill murderers and gangsters, so good's out of the question.
I'm back because I need to wait for my kettle to boil so I can have some tea.

>>1695079

Don't worry, little Billy! I saved your life by mowing down ten other people! Aren't I awesome?

>>1695067
so good characters have to hate killing? I could see a NG fighter fucking love cleaving tyrants, monsters, and criminals in twain.
and there's no argument over Cap being LG, and never betraying his principles. and he has never been beholden to his government, but to the ideals it's supposed to represent. it's like you haven't read him. It's closer to "allying with his god against that god's church."

>>1695079
since when is it lawful to torture people, hes CN

>>1695086
more like "stay here, close your eyes, and NEVER play with guns, billy. I'll make sure those rapists and murderers will never hurt you again."
>>1695096
lawful is following a code of ethics rigorously and doing things in a manner befitting that code. His code is to stop crime and protect innocents. if he has to torture someone, so be it.

>>1695096
when the law allows torture.

>>1695096
The act of torture is not inherently choatic or lawful.

>>1695115

Which is never, unless said law is patently evil.

>>1695096
CIA, the Catholic Inquisition, the KGB. If it's approved by a government to torture people, it's technically lawful.

>>1695079
I've always wondered the punisher's stand on snuff porn. He's against child porn, to the point he'd gun down anyone who helped produce it. Now comic books about child porn is child porn. Would a comic book centering around killing people cause him to explode in the causality loop?

>>1695115
Lawful != follows the law.
>>1695121
inb4 attacks on US government.

>>1695093
they can't like killing. they can like fighting, just not killing.

>>1695128
no "I'm satisfied because that person will never fucking hurt anyone again?" really? I'd disagree, but I'd say it's not the purest good out there.

>>1695076
If you Walk the Earth and you take a Vow of some importance, chances are, along the way that Vow will be tested. That test builds character. When I say test though, I don't just mean "A is the Fall, B is the Fall", I mean, "You have a choice to make. Everything will cost you something"

The very idea of a black and white morality solution is conducive to bad roleplaying. Saving an innocent life or saving the woman you love is a difficult choice. Either way you lose something. And if you Take A Third Option, you have yourself a genuine Big Damned Heroes moment. Of the best kind.

Everything has consequences. In fact, not even a "Choose who dies" moment. Something as simple as having a good decision come back to bite you in the ass. If you spare the goblins, they may one day come back to kill you.

>>1695139
if they were straight up evil, then they would be glad to be rid of the evil, but that doesnt mean they relish the killing. they enjoy the nonexistence of the evil, not the killing of the evil person.

>>1695142
have you ever been a GM? since when did PC's do what you thought they should?
if you give a paladin a choice of choose an innocent or chose the woman you love. and the other has to die by your hand, else they both die. (this has happened to me, which is why i hate the testing of a paladin) your other option is option C: self sacrifice. and look, that person that you just created had to go and get themselves killed all because your GM is a fucking douche because you played a paladin.

>>1695195
or just neither and dont kill yourself. hurr hurr, dumbass.

>>1695195
Yes, I'm always the GM. And my players, while being complete morons, seem to grasp narrative theory and such abstract concepts as putting themselves in the character's shoes.

And what possible reason for the situation you described could there have been?

>>1695195
Hrmmm. Killing innocent is bad. Killing loved one is also bad. Killing self will allow the BBEG to kill millions of more people. Would also require trusting some guy who kills innocents and goes after other people's loved ones.

I choose none of the above, grab my sword and charge the BBEG. I'll have any innocents rezed after the battle, even if I have to pry the BBEG's gold teeth and parts out his internal organs as mage reagents to the highest bidder.

I will not negotiate with cowards or terrorists.

>>1695252
NOW THAT'S LAWFUL GOOD!

>>1695246
well, in the situation i described, the party, because i was a paladin more or less left me for dead fighting minions of BBEG. they snuck in somewhere (dm didn't allow me to know this for rightful reasons) and in exchange for their lives, they had to give information on how to get rid of me (i had broken out of the cell they put me in twice and killed guards when i learned my party was also captive.) the GM wanted to get the BBEG to corrupt me and make me work for him. so the other PC's gave that i was a paladin. BBEG got my chars wife, and a random innocent. and gave me the choice to save one and kill the other. i did go with option C which was to charge BBEG and get myself killed.
most of the party was like "what, why would you charge him, that will only get you killed" to which i had to respond that killing either of them would go against the values i had followed my entire life, and so to go against them now for this fuck face would be the ultimate disgrace. the party loled at my char dying. i left, and have yet to ever be in a game with them again, due to 'challenging' the paladins beliefs.

>>1695195
I should also point out that while normally I abhor suicide, I just seem to love it when it's done for either spiritual atonement, or the greater good. And if I ever play a game of DnD, I want the DM to engineer a situation where I have to take out my dagger and drive it through my own heart.

Spiritual atonement:
There was a story--well, okay, it was a shota doujin-- the main character was chosen as the new queen. The king knew he wasn't actually a young girl, and that's why he chose the kid. The kid had lived his life training to assassinate the king, but he couldn't do it. The king offered to not kill him if he kept up the charade so that the king wouldn't have to find a new queen, he even tells the would-be assassin that he can keep trying to kill him. Eventually, they fall in love, and the king asks for a night in each other's embrace, and by that I mean hot gay sex, like a real couple would have. The caveat is that the boy can't try to kill him while they are together. At the end of the act though, the boy stabs the king in the heart. The king's last words are those of love, and crying, the assassin takes his own life.

For the greater good.
The Paladin has been cursed by the Big Bad. If the energy in him continues to build up, he will take out the entire kingdom. Seeing no other course of action the Paladin takes out his dagger, wishes farewell to his nakama, and plunges the weapon into his own heart, releasing the energy buildup and saving the kingdom, and most of all the nakama.

As a DM, I constantly test Clerics. All the CoDzilla builds make me laugh, because they're utterly unrealistic in terms of deity permissiveness. A cleric of soem god of magic is not going to allow just any of his clerics to take the dweomerkeeper presitge class. He's goign to allow only the absolute EXEMPLAR of his order to take it - they will have created magical items of unique design and lasting value, crafted new spells - and yes, I MAKE the player craft a new spell that is balanced and playworthy! - and then, if he has stayed absolutely true to his god's path in a role playing situuation, then I will aloow him to take dweomerkeeper as a prestige class. If he's earned the power, he gets the reward.

And this applies to good and evil clerics too. And druids....the Lords of Madness book can say whatever it likes. The only way a PC druid can gain the aberration wild shape ability is if he's been utterly and totally corrupted - in which case, he looses all druidic power. A fallen paladin is NOTHING compared to a fallen druid!

>>1695327
flip a coin, then kill one of them. thats the only fair way to do it. killing yourself wouldnt save them either, thats probably the MOST evil course of action to take.

>>1694951
THIS is the true paladin code.

Generaly I just played a badass paladin. If it was evil I killed it. Its a baby demon, SMITE. Corrupt politician is stealing from people and murdering for his own gain. KILL The evil overlord is giving his monologue I kill him before he finishes because hes evil.

The end always justified the means.

>>1695424
Yeah, but I'm not talking on a case by case basis. I'm talking Great Flood level.

I'm talking "The paladin sits in a floating citadel above the world and makes plans to unwrite reality and bring paradise to the world, knowing full well that he can never get into the paradise he's creating, and his party members assure him he's doing the right thing and try to keep him from falling into so deep a state of depression that he takes solace in madness."

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this, but that's the description of Kether Malach from the book I'm planning to write. The Greater Good is the -only- thing that matters, not individual safety, and not personal safety. What can be done to save humanity from destruction has to be done, regardless. And if it can't be done, well, when the world has a new enemy to unite against, it will be whole again.

Of course, that leads to those who never compromise, even in the face of Armageddon's.

>>1695471

Nope. Paladins do LG things to achieve LG ends. It's a very simple concept.

Edward gets a 4/10

What a lot of you guys forget is that there is a way for the paladin to regain his powers as long as he stays LG and didn't willfully Break his code its call the Atonement Spell
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm

>>1695508
Yeah, except sometimes doing Lawful Evil things gets you more good. It's like The Prince. A better ruler is respected, but also feared.

>>1695522
...
2/10

>>1695508
Basicaly if slavery is legal in the province then the paladin cant do anything to the evil slave trader?

>>1695550
He can work through legal means to end the slavery. Hell, he may be able to have his superiors threaten military action so long as the human rights violations continue.

That is, if the game world even has the concept of human rights.

>>1695550
No. Paladin follows his own code of ethics and laws. A St. Cuthbert paladin isn't going to follow the rules of an hexxor worshiping deathcult. A sign with "All paladins must surrender their weapons and armors and become slaves." isn't going to defeat a paladin.

If in the paladin's ethos slavery is wrong, and the paladin travels to an area where slavery is legal, he'll do everything he can to change that. Even if it means bringing an army, slaughtering everyone who is pro-slavery and putting in an anti-slavery puppet government.

I was always under the impression that Paladins only had to serve their higher God, and therefor the priests and such of whatever order who would also serve said God and not the laws and such of the people, its a class that properly puts you into the position of a Police Officer almost or can you be a feral human in the woods somewhere and pray to a tree and be a technical paladin with no social standing?

>>1695588
Paladins are expected to act ahead of their times, so human rights.

I wouldn't like to play with a dm who creates situations only to make me lose my class.

>>1695615
Paladins are expected to pledge themselves to Law and Good. Specific gods are not needed.

>>1695615
You can be a paladin of a god, an unnamed god (where you eventually discover what god you really follow), or some concept or virtue. I think the forgotten realms setting is the only one that requires a paladin to declare a god. The rest, you can be the paladin of freedom or piety or yes, even some tree you worship.

I come from a chapel, through kingdoms, peoples and cities, to this place DND, my calling, palidan, to protect and defend, to protect my newfound friends, their hopes and dreams, to defend them from, their enemies. They say evil lurks around every corner, no one knows for sure, but i intend to find out!

Paladins shouldn't exist.

Being good means you can't ever fight. And yet Paladins must fight evil. Paradox. /0. Game over. Universe ends.

>>1695327
Ah the good old catch-22 Paladin scenario. Never ceases to amaze me how immature some DMs can be to force you into a "nope, you break your code" scenario.

Especially since Paladins aren't that powerful to begin with. Why the fixation with making them break their code.

>>1695875
These are the people I hate

OMG PALADIN= BAD

A Cleric is there to heal, yet he can wield weapons and kill stuff. OMG PARADOX

>>1695875
A man who would fight to the death to defend the weak without expecting compensation of any form is not good?

OP, you are a niggerfaggot of the highest order. I hope you choke to death.

>>1695875
No, that's lawful stupid. A good person fights when necessary, avoids senseless killing, and will commit no intentionally destructive acts of selfishness.

People like you are what makes playing anything but chaotic neutral a game with a 4-aspirin entry requirement.

>>1695907
On a niggerdick.

>>1695916
If given the choice to either have one person die or both die, the path is clear. Take out or attempt to take out the thing that is causing the ultimatum.

I see a paladin like Vash the Stampeed. That fucker was fighting ALL the time, and he did so to save people. The only person he ever killed he killed so others wouldn't die. Even though he went against his own personal beliefs he atoned for his mistake. As such all paladins are capable of.

>>1695937
Precisely. What is so hard about that concept of good?

Lawful Good = play like fucking Captain America.

It doesn't mean you can't be Lawful Badass.

So.... is it wrong that I fapped to the OP's image?

>>1695943
I've been holding back saying that this whole thread. The thing with Bluesummers is the thing I've been talking about. If Vash was a paladin, in this shoehorning system that would be considered a Fall. And that was played the way a paladin's fall should be played out. Sadness. Despair. If I'm not mistaken, that's when he ran away and became Eriks, isn't it?

>>1695948
Fuck. Yes.

GUISE LOL I AM A DM
THERE IS A PALADIN AND SO I HAVE TO MAKE HIM FALLS
WHY? WHAT DO YOU MEAN WHY

>>1695966
More or less. but then he attoned and became Vash again

>>1694882
Correct answer for ANY cleric should be..

"What my God wants IS the right thing."

I just hate how everyone wants the paladin to fall and not be a paladin

Isn't that like a rogue passsing up a chest and the DM saying, OK get rid of your class benifits your no longer a rogue

Succubi/incubi always work petty good for involuntary/reversible falls.

too easy?

>>1696003
If its a demon and eveil you can kill it rape it and grill it

Hey guys I have an Anti-paladin in my game...how can I make him do something that will violate his Chaotic Evil ethos and morals?

>>1695998
It's a really juvenile thing that most players should've outgrown in the 4th grade.

But most people playing D&D apparently can't even be arsed to read the fucking section on alignment.

>>1696029
Force him to do the right and noble thing.

>>1696003
Do not encourage the OP being a douchebag.

>>1696042
Couldn't he just play that off as 'Chaos' ???

>>1696029
chaotic evil, eh? why not a helm of opposite alignment, and some of that superglue magic item?

>>1695998
Because the paladin is the perfect class to play for moral quandaries. The rogue can do whatever he wants, but whatever the paladin wants is goodness.

I don't care about the paladin not being a paladin, I care about the paladin being tested.

>>1695984
pssstt
clerics dont HAVE to follow a god...
its one of those things often looked over in the players handbook.

>>1696003
I always detected evil on the "trapped maiden" in durlag's tower in baldur's gate 1. Nope, sorry lady, you're evil, I'm not doing anything you say. "Do it or I will kill you." Oh, woah there lady, you just went from someone I will ignore to someone I will stab repeatedly with a sword, today is just not your day.

>>1696029
I always felt that "Anti-paladin" was the stupidest term to ever come out of D&D.

OMG A PLAYER ACCTUALY RPING AND NOT DUNGEON CRAWLING OH NOES!

>>1696029
Utilize a temporary time-travel spell to create a situation where they have to show mercy by sparing their future self from a grisly death.

It's pretty hard to shoehorn a character whose only code of ethics is "ALL EVIL, ALL THE FUCKING TIME."

>>1695984
Elf Cleric of that god who's name I can't be bothered to remember. Orc Child, of an incredibly evil Orc Warlord no less. Faith demanded that he slay the Orc then and there.

>>1696076
i would like to ask your fascination with this.
do you test a druid by forcing them to use metal armor or teaching druidic?
do you test the monk on thier code?
do you test the barbarian to be chaotic and not follow a code?

If I was a DM I'd not mess with the paladin JUST to spite you all

>>1696093
I again point out that A) I don't play DnD, I just like the Paladin
And B) Yes.

Though, a Druid teaching their secret language needs something more contrived, and the whole "Matel=Fall" thing is stupid.
Monks, yes, I would do it one thousand times. I've already talked about testing the Vow of Pacifism in a Vash and Legato way.
And I even talked about testing a chaotic character by letting them form a relationship with an NPC and having to go against their ways to save it.

A test of character should not be limited to the paladin, but the paladin's character is so much more ingrained in their being than any other class.

>>1696093
I bring up the parts that the characters would pay attention to. if the orcs had women and children hiding right behind the battle, and there was no paladin, I'd maybe have a passing mention. if there WAS a paladin, I go into detail because I know the paladin is paying attention.

>>1694854
>I always liked mine. I had been contact by a cultist who told me that the secrets to the world's greatest treasure would be mine if I was willing to make a sacrifice. He had prepared a small child to be sacrificed. He handed me a pulsating evil weapon and told me that a sacrifice must be made.

I would have looked at the weapon... gutted the cultist with it... then played patty cake with the kid.

What does that make me?

>>1696114
That's supposed to say "Metal=Fall". Not the toy company.

firstoff, thank you /tg/, you've restored my faith in humanity.

Second, I'd like to prove that there's still a unique character left int he world. Rogue/Paladin:

Genvieve was a part of an affluent family once, however early in her youth a great power shift happened in the city she lived in, forcing her to become a street urchin and band with others of that kind simply to survive. She kept a kind heart despite it, however, and was always everyone's favorite little sister, or as she grew, big sister. she learned how to fight out of necessity, but far more preferred to defuse the situation or run away and hide somewhere. This changed when a brave Ranger, hoping to rid the world of an evil Fighter who had been tyrannizing the city, lured him into the part of town where 'no-one would notice a few more people gone'. The Fighter, wounded badly from the fight, grabbed Genvieve's best friend Lisa, and threatened to kill her if the Ranger didn't give up. Faced with such a dillema, the Ranger was frozen...but Genvieve was not, and using a dagger that she had barely ever wounded with, found a chink in the wounded warrior's armor, slaying him with a final strike. As she killed him, she felt a glowing light inside of her, and a voice speaking in her head, as armor formed around her body. "You have a brave soul." Said Heironeous, as he granted her the power of the Paladin. "You will do well as an example to the people." She was blinded for a moment as a rush of new skills entered her mind and body, becoming part of her, and when she could see, she had a Greatsword in her hands. Leaving later that day, she has tried to set the best example for Law and Good through the world that she could.

>>1696121
well, what a right and proper paladin would do is this: cut the kid, get the information, kill the cultist, bring the kid to a cleric, get it raised, give the kid half the take.

>>1696134
also, this is the kind of stuff I let paladins do in my games.

>>1696114
You're a fucking troll, right?

You are a bad DM and you should feel bad.

>>1696138
You know what? This time I'm just going to say "yes" because it's easier. You're right, I'm sorry, I apologize.

>>1696126
Now see, that's awesome. You would get an "awesome Paladin" medal. If I had one.

>>1696104
Bonus points if you mess with everyone BUT the paladin.

>>1695607
I belive that killing someone just because he said that slavery is good can't be considered good.

>>1696151
The thought process on that one: "Complete Adventurer has a feat for Rogue/Paladins." "Who would play a Rogue/Paladin?" "Well, let's see what I can do to make one."

>>1696121
CG, according to my DM, because that similar to what I did.

"Wait, I've got an idea. One where all 3 of us can leave here happy. I get my map, the child doesn't die and you..." Grab him and pin him onto the altar, than stab him in the throat. "... get your sacrifice."

Monks breaking code has been mentioned..

But how would you go about that? Monks are lawful good, but that is following the code of your ORDER. You don't owe anyone else the lawful treatment. It only matters what they think of ya.

And.. well.. there isn't anything describing monk orders in depth..

I like the idea of the "badass" good guy. Thats what I always attributed the paladin to be. and I always figured the priest/cleric would be the moralfag

Apperantly moralfaggary and integerity are easily confused

>>1696179
I wasn't thinking making HIM the sacrifice. Just gutting the bastard then playing with the kid.

Chaotic sounds right though. I've been told I'm CN because I'm mentally ill. What would be a good class for me that isn't the fail of the bard?

>>1696189
Any chaotic act.

Laughing at a joke. Speaking in anything but Joe Friday dialog. Littering. Not tipping the waitress.

I'm sorry, but because you dropped that parchment instead of putting it back in it's proper place your level 12 monk is now a level 12 commoner.

>>1696175
To the slaver? Not so much. To the slave? The paladin is a savior sent by the gods. To the paladin? Filthy scum, repent or die.

to me Paladins put more thought into their actions rather than like a CE fighter or even a CG fighter. Like a criminal that steals, maybe the criminal is stealing because the lord of the area oppresses his people. Killing evil is fine and dandy, but neutralizing evil is better. If I can get the badguy to renouce his evil ways I succeded at ending evil and saving a life. If not I can always kill the fucker. No harm no foul

>>1696211
I don't mean slaver but someone who is pro-slavery.
You know like cutting in half this guy in a bar who said "Slavery, It's not something bad."

>>1696199
Sorceror pretty much plays on that entire concept. People will tell you that it's statistically inferior to the wizard, but fuck those min/maxing assholes, I like using CHA as my swiss-army stat.

Rogue would be excellent too, as it gives you a reason to be a sort of Robin Hood figure, while at the same time giving you free range to rob from the rich to give to yourself.

Barbarian wouldn't be bad either. Really it's all about what kind of playstyle you want to go for, and those three classes can make it work if you want to take the CN route. I suppose a cleric of a CN god would also work too, but I tend to find that wisdom is a hard stat to work into a somewhat deranged character.

Just keep in mind that chaotic neutral ISN'T about killing random people and lighting taverns on fire. That's chaotic evil. Chaotic neutral is about realistically doing what you want, with no regard as to whether it's legally acceptable to do so. You're just as likely to quest for the holy grail as you are to work for a lich.

>>1695471
You mean like that black guy in serenity?

>>1696231
C/N is the perfect example of self preservation.
you give no care for anyone or anything except for yourself. and you will do anything to stay alive and keep doing whatever the fuck you want to do

>>1696226
Depends on the situation then. Detect evil. Does he look like a major supporter of slavers? Owns slaves? If it's just some jerk in a bar, then he might be ignored. If my paladin is doing a house to house search during the siege of slavertonia, freeing slaves, killing slavers and this idiot stands up saying "Hey, enslaving people isn't so bad." then yes, he gets stabbed.

>>1696233
I haven't seen Serenity, but judging by that motivational poster, I'd have to say yes.

Someone post that poster by the way.

Just once, I want to see a DM with slavery in his world and a race that is, innately, inferior to all other races. Sure, they can think, and they can move, but they fit every single stereotype the townsfolk have for them.

I imagine a PC going to be a missionary and coming back two weeks later to buy slaves.

>>1696233
>>1696247
You mean The Operative?
He's LE.
Awesome LE, but LE.

>>1696246
Stabbing him just for saying that? Pushing it, maybe. You could just as easily ignore him, or knock him out with a swift bit of subdual damage (easily done if he's a commoner) if you're going for something more covert.

Standing in your way and bearing arms against you for freeing the slaves? Yeah, sword in gut, file the necessary paperwork later.

Anyone who plays a Palain that is lawful stupid deserves to fall, and paladin that plays Lawful badass should be feared

Lawful Good doesn't mean Lawful Nice

>>1696254
Well, by the "Good is doing it for others, Evil is doing it for you" interpretation, he would be Lawful Good. Anyone who chooses Evil for the sake of others is not truly evil

>>1696246
Then this situation:
Pladin sees cages with slaves (slavery isn't against law). He comes to the guard and demands releasing slaves. When guard refuses he kills him and releases the slaves.

>>1696281
you dont play D&D. and you apparently dont know how the D&D system works.
go read the first few pages of the Book of Exalted deeds and then come back and post.

>>1696281
And so the Hitler paradox...

The only lawful good character possible are Gandhi, Buddha, and Jesus. Anything less would be...uncivilized.

>>1696287
I'm pretty sure I've mentioned about five times that I don't play DnD. And I'm pretty sure that Icewind Dale classified Good and Evil in that way.

Paladins have a sense of Human rights, Slavary goes against that. If its legal he can't be all PALLY SMASH! But he can coerce the slave masters into attacking him. or the controversial buy the slaves and set them free

Had a paladin in my campaign who was in the middle of a small village under attack by kobolds. Gave him the choice of saving his 'girlfriend' (A PC who failed her Listen check and was happily dozing away) or defending a small orphanage.

He chose the orphanage, so the cleric had an epic duel with massed kobolds and was killed while the other PCs kept the orphanage safe. I Hand-Of-DM resurrected the cleric and gave the paladin a shiny new greatsword that could 'recall' people he considered allies to his side.

>>1696296
Wrong wrong wrong wrong, wrong wrong wrong wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wroooooooooooong.

Lawful good is anyone who is a good natured, law-abiding citizen. Chances are a lot of your neighbors are lawful good, without having to be some sort of godly saint.

>>1696231
I'm already quite good at doing whatever the hell I want despite what anyone thinks. I'm sure anyone in my last thread can attest to that.

I'm hoping to eventually be referred to as, "That crazy bitch that posts here."

>>1696294
How is that the Hitler Paradox? Hitler wasn't in it for the good of mankind, he was in it for the good of himself. Hell, I'm not even sure he did it for the good of the German peoples. He did it because he was butthurt over World War I.

Though, using Objective Morality, if he did, indeed, do it for the sake of his country, then he'd be as much a Paladin as Captain America. And a Knight Templar to boot. Well, maybe. The Jews didn't exactly oppose him, though if you think about it, if there was only a German race, then there would be no racial conflict... Hard to have conflict between something so homogeneous.

>>1696299
In D&D Good and Evil are external, supernatural forces. No matter how horrible an atrocity one commits, if done in the name of good its considered good. No matter how selfless and honorable a champion of evil is in pursuing his cause, his actions are still evil.

Yes, the D&D Alignment system is that retarded.

>>1696315
Less talking, more kegadol.

>>1696314
Actually, I'd say the Commoner is Lawful Neutral. Wiki says Lawful Good is the Saintly alignment, and I'm pretty sure things concur

>>1696319
Actually.. in his own twisted way.. Hilter DID think he was doing the best thing possible.

That is what makes real world morality one big clusterfuck. No one is evil for the sake of being evil. They think they are in the right and everyone else is wrong.

>>1696299
from the book of Exalted Deeds: Good is not nice, polite, well mannered, prudish, self-righteous, or naive, though good aligned characters might be some of those things. Good is the awsome holy energy that radiates from the celestial planes and crushes evil. Good is selfless, just, hopeful, benevolent, and righteous.

further on
"Ends and Means: When do good ends justify evil means to achieve them? is it morally acceptable, for example, to torture an evil captive in order to extract vital information that can prevent the deaths of thousands of innocents? any good character shudders at the thought of committing torture, but the goal of preventing thousands of deaths is undeniably a virtuous one, and a neutral character might easily consider the use of torture in such a circumstance. with evil acts on a smaller scale, even the most virtuous characters can find themselves tempted to agree that a very good end justifies a mildly evil means. is it acceptable to tell a small lie in order to prevent a monor catastrophe? a large catastrophe?
in the D&D universe the fundamental answer is no, an evil act is an evil act no matter what good it may achieve. A paladin wo knowingly commits an evil act in pursuit of any end no matter how good still jeopardizes her paladinhood.
aka, your version of 'good' is actually neutral.

>>1696341

Uh, no. In the D&D absolute morality system, in both the means and the ends must be good for you to be good. Either of them being evil and you're something less than good.

>>1696341
Maybe that's the way things work in your games, however I usually modify what is "good" and what is "evil" according to the setting. For instance, kobolds do bad shit, but killing all th kobolds on the planet is evil. How does a good adventurer go about solving this problem? I use things like this, and my own player's grasp of morals to make it fit better then that.

>>1696363
what if a paladin doesn't take part in an evil act, but doesn't nessisarily prevent it to save people?

>>1696282
>>1696273
Anyone supporting, financing or engaging in an activity which is counter to the very basis of what a paladin believes is a viable target. This doesn't mean declaring war on an entire city just to enforce a no littering law. Killing a random slaver guard in an otherwise non-hostile city would be counter productive, since slaves would be put in danger. Asking the local ruler to ban the practice of slavery, if he refuses, then so be it. Time for the cleansing to begin. Purge the unclean with any tactic that will increase the speed of release of the slaves. Barricading the main barracks door while tossing a deathstone through one of the windows, coup de grace while the guards are sleeping, setting the castle on fire then destroying the drawbridge and shooting anyone who tries to jump into the moat. They were given a chance to repent, they chose their path.

Again. A "No non cultists beyond this point." sign will not stop a paladin. It's the paladin's idea of law and good that matter.

I like the SoB style paladin, carrying a flaming sword, several fireball wands, and a whole case of alchemist's fire.

Is the op pic, Miko?

Good god, the lines in this thread are such good quotable material.

Personally as a DM, I have one of those rare groups where roleplaying is more important than min-maxing. I actually did make a Paladin step out of code and lose his powers until he realized that he did it for the greater good. That is what paladin's want right? The greater good.

In b4 tau lover.

>>1696408
Was he in a situation in which he could (at least try to) stop this evil act? If so, that is an evil act.
If no, nothing happens to him.

If I was a DM and a paladin fell it would be because of his own stupidity not a catch-22. Any character can be screwed because of a catch-22. Thats a sign of bad DMing

>>1696423
For the Greater Good.

Also, The only thing it takes for Evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing

>>1696455
To the party mage: If you go through the left door you will have your int reduced permanently by 10. If you go through the right door, your class will be changed to commoner. You have 10 seconds to choose.

Paladin code of coduct.
KILL EVIL
PURIFY THE TAINTED
PURGE TH UNCLEAN
SUFFER NOT THE WITCH TO LIVE!

>>1694828
... Sweden?

>>1696472
Solution: you didnt say that anything bad will happen if he doesnt choose or goes back
Do I win?

>>1696536
Rocks fall, you die.

>>1696344
Calling lawful good the "saintly" alignment is like calling a basket of mixed fruit the "citrus bucket". Sure, all Saints are lawful good, just as all citrus is fruit, but not all lawful good characters are saints, just as not all fruit is citrus.

Make sense?

>>1696590
Ahh, the good old "All dogs are animals, so all animals are dogs" fallacy.

Yeah, being lawful doesn't mean being saintly. Personally, I'd say the closest to being saintly would be Neutral Good. Order, chaos, all that matters is that good gets done and people are helped.

Chaotic good palidans are awesome

>>1696653
One good thing 4e adds.
Paladins can be any alignment, as long as it is the same as their god.
FUCK YEAH! TN PALADIN!

>>1696599
I prefer the
1. All men are mortal.
2. Socrates is mortal.
3. All men are Socrates.
version.

>>1696664
this is a house rule of mine. if you want to follow a god. you must be of his exact alignment. and you dont have the Paladin CoC you have your gods dogma to follow and uphold.

>>1696664
Fuck that, hard headed dragonborn paladin serving an idealized Tiamat!

My house rule is that you can't be a nigger character and be a Paladin.

>>1696689
If a Paladin heard about that, he'd probably kill you.

>>1696664
What Smite *alignment* would a TN Paladin get?
Smite Infidel that works on all good, all evil, LN, AND CN?
That sounds overpowered.

>>1696694
But then he'd fall, because that would be an evil act. I'm just a DM, after all.

>>1696698
Probably akin to clerics, who get to decide if they have an evil or good slant to themselves.

Fuck gods, they complicate your shit unless your a cleric in which case they dictate your existence. Palidans should revere all the good gods because they help spread what is right, and quick prayers before going into combat.

>>1696709
Take your hack and slash Mary Sue shit elsewhere.

>>1696713
bawwww I'm not satisfied without godcock in everyone's ass

>>1696795
Oh please. God is everything. You're an internet atheist if you try and tell yourself otherwise.

>>1696795
>>1696806
I smell... duelan trolls

OP is a fucking douche. This paladin is actually acting like a paladin! Help me come up with a Catch-22 to make him fall, guys!

>>1696839
Paladins are a Mary Sue and no one likes them.

Posting Cracky in a religious argument.

>>1696806
Or just someone who practices a different religion than the monotheistic one you do?

>>1696415
oots ain't welcome here.

>>1696806
Can't hear you over the godcock in your mouth lol i believe in god irl so you should too even in a FANTACY game

>>1696880
Not "believe-in-my-god-or-you're-an-atheist" fag, but your argument would look a lot better if you spelled fantasy right.

>>1696806
Hey, I'm an atheist and have been for most of my thinking life, and my father is an anglican priest. He's fine with that, I'm fine with his religion. If you're uncomfortable with the idea of others being different, you're probably not entirely sure of of your religion being right.

That or a troll. Probably the latter.

>>1696848

What.

>>1696920
Proof that a paladin isn't necessarily a Mary Sue.

Lawful Badass

>>1696926
Spoiler alert: NOBODY in Hellsing qualifies for the "Good" alignment.

>>1696920
I'm going to have to say that on the whole, regenerators tend to be Mary Sue incarnate.

I mean, fucking Wolverine.

There has never been a good Paladin character, nor will there ever be.

/thread

>>1696977
King Arthur, you dumb shit.

Liberal use of the term "Mary Sue" does not make you cool. The whole D&D alignment system is utter shit. Alignment is just a question of motive, and how the motives surface. As long as people think they're doing the right thing, they're good. If they know they aren't, but they decide to just roll with it, they're neutral or evil. Lawful/chaotic is all about the setting. A paladin who can pull off being lawful good (law being determined by their place of origin, and good being whatever they believe is right) deserves their fucking paladin badge.

Inner conflict in a character should only be provoked at the roleplayer's discretion. Fags.

>>1696848
>>1696977


>>1696126

>>1695966

I hate to be an ass but no, He became Eriks after he was forced to destory the city of Augusta via Legatos evil shenanigans.

After he gave Legato a new hole in the head he was dragged off by Miss Tsundere Meryl Styfe and Her partner and laid in bed until he healed, and then he went on a self loathing trip.

>>1697207
I fucked up with that picture posting not in my last post so,

A paladin of the Tiny horse.

"FOR PONY!"

A palidan should not lose his powers for roughing up a scumbag to get the information he needs to get the job done and the evil vanquished.

>>1696506

GOOD FOR THE GOOD GOD!

I never got it paladins don't get their powers from a god, but yet if they go against their code of conduct they lose said powers from said god...

>>1697428
PALADIN. IT'S SPELLED PALADIN! GET IT RIGHT!

Also, that could be considered torture, which is an evil act

>>1697918
Gods don't take away their power, it's just your connection to the elemental forces of law and good are (temporarily?) severed.

ITT

I think some of you forget that part of being good means that Paladin should make the punishment adequate to crime so you can't just go smiting everybody who says something evil.