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  • File :1215595735.jpg-(49 KB, 800x520, spear longinus.jpg)
    49 KB Immortality Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)05:28 No.2174377  
    /tg/ Let's talk IMMORTALS and how to use this concept (or how your DM used it) effectively in a campaign.

    While researching fluff for my campaign, I noticed that GAIUS CASSIUS LONGINUS (or slight variations on the name) was both "Cassius" who stabbed Julius Caesar to death in the Forum in 44 BC as well as the soldier who stabbed Jesus Christ in the side on the cross.

    What if this person was the same? The time difference would suggest he'd need to be immortal (and well, we know about the "true" death of the Cassius who killed Caesar) and there are extant myths about the Longinus who stabbed Jesus as an immortal.

    What if this person were one or more of the other famous Longinuses:

    He would be, perhaps, the greatest kingmaker in history... by virtue of killing to men who died and yet were deified and turned immortal in spirit through their fame and influence.

    Perhaps this person is even more ancient, Cane perhaps, and time and no rest in death has made him crazy or some sort of pilot of history.

    What if he is part of a secret society? What if he's not actually immortal but some Dread Pirate Roberts who is replaced by a new person every few years to carry on the mission ... or what if the mission changes?

    I'd like to grow this into an interesting device for my game.
    >> Mad Max !3GqYIJ3Obs 07/09/08(Wed)05:31 No.2174390
    For what system?

    And I'm assuming that the immortals would be NPCs I hope.

    Unless you're playing Exalted.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)05:37 No.2174406
    I have nothing to add but am intrigued by your ideas, OP.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)05:40 No.2174416
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    > What System?

    GURPS. Mostly because it's easy to incorporate historical fluff. Especially Imperial Rome.

    I haven't played Exalted, although the cover with Jebus and the sheep and all that intrigued me as to how the Exalted fluff explains Jebus.

    More on Jebus in a second...
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)05:43 No.2174421
    Sounds like a UA rumor.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)05:45 No.2174428
    Caesar was slain by Marcus Brutus.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)05:50 No.2174440
    Or so they would have you believe.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)05:52 No.2174443

    Brutus was only one of the conspirators. Lest you forget about Cassius with the mean and hungry look?

    Read up fool.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)05:53 No.2174451
    Ahem... "there can only be one"
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)06:00 No.2174472

    Caesar orchestrated his own suicide by proxy.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)06:01 No.2174474

    The Spear of Longinus and the Immortality of Gaius appears in several fantasy stories.

    Highlander is one of them. The Hitler Occult (he was trying to find the Spear Longinus). The Wandering Jew. Vampire myth. Evangelion.

    Most of the modern uses center around the actual Spear as a powerful object. I'm more interested in the immortality and conspiracy side of it.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)06:01 No.2174475
    Brutus was the last to stab him, but Cassius was the ringleader.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)06:01 No.2174477
    He could be a time traveller.

    Just putting it out there.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)06:08 No.2174491
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    What if the Longinus society are a noble society whose goal is to prevent the tyranny of one over the masses when they deify charismatic and powerful men.

    They are obviously unsuccessful when they assassinated Caesar and Christ, seeing as the power of the symbol of those men grew many times greater with their deaths.

    Or perhaps they are just the opposite, a proto illuminati . They wish to control the masses through religion, myth, and thus they are king makers and god makers. They manipulate politics to create heroic figures that they control, and when successful they exerpt that control and if their puppets rebel, they assassinate them and build cults around their worship, growing and continuing their influence.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)06:17 No.2174500
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    Regarding Jesus...

    One plot that I am working on assumes that Jesus is a spoiled son of a well of merchant who has traveled the Silk Road and learned of Buddism and Zoroastrianism and Confucianism and Mithraism on his journeys through Persia and India and China (or representatives of those cultures).

    Much of the Christ myth is rehashed from these and other pagan religions and much of Roman Catholicism in practice as well as scripture.

    The Gospels are also thematically similar to the teachings of the Buddha and other Eastern thinkers and there's an interesting theory out there that during the missing years of Christ (if there even was a Christ or any of what we have written is even slightly true) he may have encountered these Eastern philosophies.

    So he is a rabble rouser in Judea at the same time that Rome is trying to bring Judea under the Roman thumb. St. Paul is actually a ROMAN SPY sent to Judea to examine a means for the Romans to use psychological war fare against the coming revolt of the Jews to quash the revolt and allow Rome to conquer Judea easier.

    Paul's plan is to foment religious rebellion among the Jews from within by supporting the small Jesus cult and thus weaken the insurgency against Roman governance by fomenting infighting among the Jewish religious elite.
    >> Tiara is a Cat 07/09/08(Wed)06:19 No.2174506
    JFK? MLK? Perhaps Longinus was the second gunman on the grassy knoll?

    ...holy fuck that's WILD
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)06:20 No.2174508
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    So, in the same manner that the elevation and assassination of Julius Caesar created the impetus and infighting that brought down the Republic which had stood for hundreds of years, Jesus Christ was elevated and assassinated to create similar factionalism that brought down the old system and allowed for the Empire (established by August, son of God) to expand over Judea.

    Bring this ethic forward a few thousand years and you can treat WWI as the same tactic... the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand creating regional factionalization and infighting that allowed for much greater forces to amass and fight for global power.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)06:24 No.2174518

    Yes, same plot line, except Kennedy was an inept fucker who was the anti-Caesar (he didn't get shit done at all... total douche bag...) ... But his Death did allow that most evil and vile of men, Johnson, to assume power and twist Vietnam into one of the biggest cluster-fucks in history.

    I'm personally of the opinion that Johnson had more than a little to do with Kennedy's death. It was in his back yard and he had by far the most to gain.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)06:37 No.2174566
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    What interests me is the thematic possibilities of immortality, godhood, and politics of association with those powers. Even if we state that Caesar (Julius and Augustus) and Jesus and Longinus were just men, not deities or truly immortal in any physical sense, their power was derived from those concepts.

    August and Jesus were Sons of God. A trope used in political dynasties since the beginning of Recorded Times.. "the divine rights of kings" or the deification of the Pharoahs.

    The Epic of Gilgamesh is about seeking immortality.

    So, we pit those concepts against one another as motivation for power and justice and such... and from where we build the plots that the PCs will be thrown into and discover.

    Are they pawns used to assist in the assassination of a god figure for the puppet masters to manipulate for population control?

    Are they sworn initiates into the Longinus sect? If they are, are they of the opinion that they are righteous tyrant killers or do they know about plot to create cults via these charismatic leaders and their deaths to control the masses?

    It'd be interesting to see how my PCs might react to that revelation. They think they are Paladins for freedom from oppression only to find that they are pawns of even greater and more hidden oppressors.

    In that context, perhaps immortality is simply a metaphor for the systems of power that outlive us... our institutions... the idea of Kings and succession and birth right and secret societies and religions and even branches of science.

    Or perhaps some element of Immortality is real and ancient and influences the plot.

    That's what I'd like your thoughts and additions on. How to make this fun and relevant to play.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)07:40 No.2174726
    Epic idea.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)08:00 No.2174777
    Its a very anglocentric example, but i can see how the death of Princess Diana could figure into this. heck, the british royal family are probably an integral part of the conspiracy.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)08:09 No.2174825
    I like the idea and the dualism.

    When you find great power in these beings that are either living gods or deified after their deaths, there is also great power in killing them.

    So the idea of immortality vs. assassins has a lot of natural tension involved. Brain cloud on "immortal assassin" itself and you're bound to come up with more ideas.

    The Paul as Roman Spy set to foment turmoil through the creation of a messiah cult is an new angle I had not heard of before and there is plenty of good stuff there to provide the theme of a campaign or two.
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 07/09/08(Wed)08:14 No.2174847
    I don't know why, but when people change the big things, I'm like "Awesome", but when they change the little things, I'm like... "aww, man..."

    Like Jesus being the son of a merchant. I mean, I'm accepting that he was an Immortal, and related to Caesar, and all this other stuff, and that he fights people with katanas and lightning comes out when their heads are cut off... but that tiny thing bothers me.

    Also, I saw JFK, perhaps he was an immortal that was gaining power, well, someone gaining power even if they're good isn't good if they live until killed. With TV and motion picture and film technology being so powerful even in those days, a lasting record of a man who should have been dead would not have been good.

    Perhaps all, or a majority, of heroes throughout history were Immortals. Using an example, something like the Goa'uld. Of course, without the Always Chaotic Evil of the Goa'uld. I mean, really? Amaterasu? And Anubis? I can see Camus, being the God of War and all, but, really? All those Gods and Goddesses who's praises were sung and no bad things recorded of were evil? Really now. Really?
    >> Phobonaut !tTBC.7oEaQ 07/09/08(Wed)08:19 No.2174876
    Edward, for your own tripsake... better use historical or literary illustrations instead of run-of-the-mill science fiction.

    You already have a name of liking any anime-thing.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)08:22 No.2174883
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    The interesting thing about Jesus is that we have nearly no physical evidence and the other evidence comes to us through texts that are within the Religion / cult.

    He could very well have been a real human being, and even a wandering teacher... there were several during the times... but that's not why he's important. He's important now because a cult was formed after his death that grew and wrote all this fluff about him being a God and doing miracles and fulfilling ancient prophecies and the trinity and the resurrection.

    Almost none of it original or new.

    The idea of creating a Jesus cult as propaganda to work against the Jewish religious powers that be to make subjugation easier is an interesting enough idea for a certain kind of RPG.

    Especially if you ask WHO is doing it, and WHY... and if that group is the same group behind the fall of the Roman Republic and perhaps the death of Alexander the Great....

    The proto-Illuminati as anon has said.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)08:29 No.2174917
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    The proto-Illuminati has some issues you should consider. The entire idea of an Illuminati is that certain powerful people have strings they can pull behind the scenes.

    They also communicate in back channels and in secret.

    They have great power and secret agendas.

    Now... such powerful organizations can only exist logically to counter or influence other great and mighty organizations. And if they have wide reach (near global) they also need the ability and a reason to communicate across those distances.

    There's little reason to pull the strings between China and Rome if the two are never going to meet... no? Just like we don't have to prevent a far off planet from invading Earth if the evil beings who live there could never get here.

    Conflict drives plot. So the era in which you speak really would be one of the first times in history that an Illuminati type organization would even need to come into existence... since it's the start of the Silk Road opening up and greater communication abilities and a greater need for the powerful to want to keep their power.

    Alexander kicked a lot of ass, but a lot of that was due to the huge discrepancy between his power and the organizations he faced. Perhaps this proto-Illuminati grew out of his followers, the generals (or other movers and shakers) who divided up his empire.

    Alexander really marks the first global empire, so to speak. And yes, he did use religion and culture as propaganda weapons to subdue his conquered foes.

    I think we're developing a nice history to this cause.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)08:30 No.2174925

    What bothers you Edward? That the OP hasn't changed the role of Jesus enough?
    >> Edward !F8wHraWURw 07/09/08(Wed)08:33 No.2174942
    I like Stargate. First thing that popped into my head of ancient Gods being less than so was that.
    Also... my name really is Edward though... I-it's not a nickname or a handle...

    >Almost none of it original or new.
    Don't get me wrong, I like the idea that Jesus was a wanderer who found Eastern philosophy and tried to teach it to the Jews and Romans.
    >> Phobonaut !tTBC.7oEaQ 07/09/08(Wed)08:33 No.2174943
    Do you know how many disgruntled generals Alexander left after he died.


    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)08:57 No.2175040
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    Yes, the implications are many. Perhaps one or more of them, when military might wasn't sufficient, devised a means to reunite the empire -- or as much of it as possible -- through subversive or back channel means.

    The truth is that even after Alexander died and Rome fell, the legacy of the Western CULTURE remained. That was the true empire, no?

    Also, what if this group or sect were the originators of the OLD Testament and even the Q Bible (the unknown source text for the Gospels that links their common threads), etc.
    >> Edward 07/09/08(Wed)09:00 No.2175061
    No, that he changed Joseph to a merchant.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)09:07 No.2175108
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    Tripping off the themes of immortality and the Spear Longinus and Secret Societies and religions... is

    Vampire: The Requiem, specifically the Lancea Sanctum:

    >The Sanctified trace their origin to a passage in the Bible when a Roman soldier stabbed Jesus Christ with his spear while the Savior was being crucified. Thus the name of the covenant, Lancea Sanctum, or "sanctuary of the lance" (though in actual Latin it is lancea sancta, the corruption having come from memory loss and conscription of ignorant neonates)[citation needed]. What the Bible doesn't say is that some of the blood of Christ fell into the mouth of the soldier, whose name was Longinus, and thus he became a vampire. In mortal life, Longinus celebrated every sin to its fullest extent. He was violent, arrogant, lazy and cruel. He would gamble away his mother's earnings, insult her in public and, on one occasion, rape her. As a Roman soldier, he disobeyed orders, abused his authority and even killed a superior. It was only through the Hand of God that he was able to keep his position so he could fulfil his destiny.

    >After his transformation and a 33 year long "sabbatical," Longinus visited the tomb of Christ to confirm that the body was no longer there. Upon this verification, the Archangel Vahishtael appeared before him and told him his role in God's plan. Longinus would then later Embrace at least one mortal, Monachus, who gave the founder an education. The two oversaw that others accepted Longinus's words with equal devotion; the first five would later give their unlives to the cause and become known as the Five Martyrs. One of them, St. Daniel would perish as he rained down the powers of Theban Sorcery upon some particularly evil Romans. It is this Discipline that the young covenant discovered in Thebes that became the signature power of the organization and a great asset in the centuries ahead.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)09:29 No.2175188
    I was about to mention the LS creation myth. The thematic elements of this idea could also be adapted to nWoD, at least in the sense that each of these historical figures were in fact powerful vampires. Those who has survived to the present day would be immensely powerful, both socially and physically. This could also lead into a sort of meta-plot Illuminati in which the world is controlled by a group of vampires who have literally built the world into what it is today. Another aspect could be that these vampires have managed to transcend the curse of vamparism, and now live as something entirely diffrent. Now free from the curse of the sun's burning rays, they walk among us as they work the world like master puppeteers.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)09:42 No.2175223
    I've not been up to date, but I thought nWoD was Requiem?
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)10:45 No.2175499
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    An interesting theme to consider given your choice in time and subject matter is the degree to which the Christ myth and the Caesar myth overlap:

    Both Caesar and Jesus start their rising careers in neighboring states in the north: Gallia and Galilee.

    Both have to cross a fateful river: the Rubicon and the Jordan. Once across the rivers, they both come across a patron/rival: Pompeius and John the Baptist, and their first followers: Antonius and Curio on the one hand and Peter and Andrew on the other.

    Both are continually on the move, finally arriving at the capital, Rome and Jerusalem, where they at first triumph, yet subsequently undergo their passion.

    Both have good relationships with women and have a special relationship with one particular woman, Caesar with Cleopatra and Jesus
    with Magdalene.

    Both have encounters at night, Caesar with Nicomedes, Jesus with Nicodemus.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)10:47 No.2175504

    That... that is quite cool actually
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)10:47 No.2175505
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    Both of them are great orators and of the highest nobility, descendant of Aeneas and son of David, yet nevertheless both are self-made men. Both struggle hard and ultimately triumph, hence each has a ‘triumphal entry’: Caesar on horseback and Jesus on a donkey.

    Both have an affinity to ordinary people—and both run afoul of the highest authorities: Caesar with the Senate, Jesus with the Sanhedrin.
    Both are contentious characters, but show praiseworthy clemency as well: the clementia Caesaris and Jesus’ Love-thy-enemy.
    Both are maligned as the friend of publicans and sinners.

    Both have a traitor: Brutus and Judas. And an assassin who at first gets away: the other Brutus and Barabbas. And one who washes his
    hands of it: Lepidus and Pilate.

    Both are accused of making themselves kings: King of the Romans and King of the Jews. Both are dressed in red royal robes and wear a
    crown on their heads: a laurel wreath and a crown of thorns.

    Both get killed: Caesar is stabbed with daggers, Jesus is crucified, but with a stab wound in his side.

    The Passion of Caesar – Discovering the historical Christ
    Both die on the same respective dates of the year: Caesar on the Ides (15th) of March, Jesus on the 15th of Nisan.
    Both are deified posthumously: as Divus Iulius and as Jesus Christ.

    Both leave behind priests: Marcus Antonius and Peter. Both have a posthumous heir.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)10:55 No.2175528

    This, of course, brings up the other possibility... if not immortality, reincarnation.

    Perhaps the J.C. soul is doomed to repeat a similar story for some past transgression or perhaps some imbalance in space time... or a larger mythos that needs to be relived.

    It's one thing to theorize that Jesus didn't exist the way anyone thinks and that the entire deification is a repeat of Caesar and Mithras and such... or perhaps it's a reincarnation and an actual repeat of the elements in those myths and religions that actually DID happen before.

    Like a much more epic and not as hokey version of Ground Hogs day. The battle between good and evil really does recur and this JC soul is at the center of it... and at times the fight is small scale and lost to history, at other times it shapes politics at the highest levels.
    >> Edward 07/09/08(Wed)10:55 No.2175529
    >> sage 07/09/08(Wed)10:59 No.2175538
    >Both have a posthumous heir.

    I don't recall Jesus having a kid as being canon.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)11:00 No.2175540
    Sorry you're still listening to the Bible here?
    >> M:tG Rules Guy !!FE5SPyuM+g0 07/09/08(Wed)11:05 No.2175561
    Where else do you get canon material about Jesus?
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)11:07 No.2175567
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    >J. C.

    >J. C. Denton.

    >Jesus Christ Denton.

    >Jesus Christ.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)11:07 No.2175569

    A posthumous heir is not referring to their BIOLOGICAL heirs.

    For Caesar, Octavian was his heir. For Jesus I take it that James or Paul can be considered heirs.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)11:10 No.2175581

    I'm sorry, I meant PETER, not Paul. As in the first Pope. The theological Heir to Christ's empire, just like Octavian was the administrative heir to Caesar's empire. Peter really built the church just like Octavian really built the Roman Empire.

    Both used the authority and popularity of the dead JC to do so.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)11:12 No.2175593

    Certainly not the archeological record!

    There's always the Apocrypha though. And the theories on what was the Q Bible (google that, fascinating).

    Jesus is as we make and made him. A conflagration of myths and memes and bits and pieces of other people and stories. It's all rather fascinating, especially when you try and put a dramatic plot to it all like this thread.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)11:13 No.2175595
    Am I the only one who gave the fingers to both the Illuminati and that piece of Techno-Crap, Helios, in that game? Seriously, libertarianism rules.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)11:14 No.2175601
    Already been done:

    >> Marca Reg !!XL717J3DDe9 07/09/08(Wed)11:19 No.2175618

    Actually i kind of got a kind of UA vibe from those last couple posts. Perhaps it's a very large, very complicated ritual, devised or improvised by the Longinus cult to transmogrify an ordinary human into a god-like figure? Assemble the set, the players, and put the drama together, and whomever is able to fill the central role is guaranteed immortality...

    Anyway, this is a fantastic thread, someone should make sure this gets archived.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)11:22 No.2175626

    Yes, that's one aspect of this whole collection of myths as already mentioned. The goal is not to walk ground that hasn't been walked (why would we be talking about Rome and Ceasar and Jesus and the Spear Longinus if we wanted "original" ?) but to explore how such stories were done well and what elements are still fruitful for mining.

    Casca is simply a manifestation of the Wandering Jew trope. The question is, what elements of it would be fund to role play?
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)11:22 No.2175627
    There's actual evidence that Julius Caesar existed though. All evidence that Jesus did is christian, and so slightly biased.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)11:26 No.2175643

    What's UA ?
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)11:32 No.2175666
    Unknown Armies
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)11:33 No.2175672
    Let's talk source books:

    RPG Books:
    GURPS Imperial Rome
    Green Ronin Eternal Rome
    ADnD 2e: The Glory of Rome
    Vampire the Requiem: Requiem for Rome
    Lex Arcana

    Of course, for historical fluff:
    Osprey Rome books (more than a few)
    Oxford University Press series on Roman Cavalry, Legionary, Pompeii, and the Roman Fort

    From the times:
    Tacitus, Plutarch, Livy, Seutonius

    Shakespeare, McCullough
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)11:37 No.2175695

    That's where a lot of the room for storytelling comes in. Was Jesus an unspectacular man who was made to fit the prophecies by some group with an agenda (like the suggested Paul = Roman spy sent to cause infighting with the Jewish insurgency against Rome) ... or was he truly a gifted reincarnation of greatness or the very same man as Caesar and Alexander... and thus a group saught to kill him like they did Alexander and Caesar...

    Or was he invented out of whole cloth after his supposed death, and the details of his life and death were only told when there had been enough distance between the supposed events and the worship so as to obfuscate the fact that none of it ever happened, at all.

    Or is it that certain elements of Jesus' life were woven and conflated with the Julius Caesar worshipers and some of the errors just stuck... like the names of places and people that are too close to ignore.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)11:41 No.2175711
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    Another question worth asking for general opinions is:

    WHAT or WHO would you like to play in such a milieu and what would you like to do?

    Would you like to be representatives of the secret cult sent out to diseminate this information? Perhaps you are the assassins who must plan the deaths of these great but dangerous men. Perhaps you are evil and they are good. Or the other way around.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)12:03 No.2175805
    UA: Roman Edition?
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)16:17 No.2177229
    Awesome idea for fluff.

    Where do the PCs fit in?
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)18:12 No.2177880
    Stolen for my next UA plot hook
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)20:43 No.2178714
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    I'm not familiar with Unknown Armies. Can anon please flesh it out a little bit and comment on how one might play it in a historical setting like 1st century AD Roman Empire?
    >> SetSail4Fail 07/09/08(Wed)21:01 No.2178838

    Incase anybody's interested, there were a few Jews in China


    Quite a bit later than christ, but maybe these hebrews just wern't well documented untill the 1100's. There could've been a jewish presence in China since the time of Christ
    >> red black spiderman !!gmZ7B9l1yE+ 07/09/08(Wed)21:06 No.2178867
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    Whole lot of win here. I'll post some ideas.

    Not really at all. UA is set in modern times.
    >The game is set in a modern-day "occult underground," populated by loose networks of shadowy cabals and practitioners of magic. Commonly described as "Quentin Tarantino's Call of Cthulhu" by RPG fans,[citation needed] the style and setting of the game draws on a number of influences, including the fantasy novels of Tim Powers, the crime novels of James Ellroy, the films of David Lynch, the Illuminatus! Trilogy, and comic books such as Grant Morrison's The Invisibles. The game creates an extensive postmodern mythology of everyday weirdness and magic that lurks in the shadows of the mind.
    >> my comp is acting like a faggot. have some tits red black spiderman !!gmZ7B9l1yE+ 07/09/08(Wed)21:14 No.2178928
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    Humans are fragile. Ideas can last for a longer time but in the end the empires of yesteryear, their customs, their religion, their history, all their ideas that are more resilient than a human life, are forgotten. At best they are examined with curiosity by later generations, but the intensity of the ideas is gone.

    The Roman Empire, then, is the empire that will not end. The society has engineered an idea that cannot die because it will adapt over the ages to whatever form can survive. Was it not the Roman adaptability, the willingness to take on better ideas and make them their own, that made the Empire so successful? And even after the Empire itself fell, did not its ideas continue? And continue to spread? And why did so many other domains claim to be the true heirs of Rome? The sturdiness of the empire is a marvel.

    The aim of the Longinus society is in fact nothing less than the exaltation of mankind. By elevating men to godhood they have bridged the gap between the human and the divine, the finite and the eternal. The mortal deity is our gateway to infinity.
    Solus Christus is to be take quite literally: we are able to outlast our mortal shells by joining Christ the concept and enter the Kingdom of Heaven which is the World of Forms, the Place of Ideas. We can become immortal.
    >> red black spiderman !!gmZ7B9l1yE+ 07/09/08(Wed)21:17 No.2178948
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    The PCs could be low level agents of the society, which is smart enough to work through layers of command so that the agents who execute the orders know nothing of the people who give the orders. In fact, they probably believe that they are members of an entirely different organization: a political party, a special interest group or even a hobby club. If they are to learn anything of the aims -or even the existence- of the society they must keep their eyes peeled. Do they continue working for them when they realize that their innocent group is part of a millenia old conspiracy?

    Or maybe they are OPPOSED to a street level group which is part of the Longinus cult. As far as the PCs know they are fighting people with different political ideas or a rival gang or whatever. Digging up dirt is fair game but what if they discover way more than that? With a goal like the immortality of mankind, can the PCs continue to oppose the society after they learn what it really is?
    >> red black spiderman !!gmZ7B9l1yE+ 07/09/08(Wed)21:22 No.2178986
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    On the other hand, if the PCs work on the highest levels -perhaps are immortal themselves- how do they safeguard all the work that has been put in the Human Immortality Project so far?

    Resilient Imperial Heritage or not, a truly dedicated group which knows of the Longinus society and understands its goals and for some reason opposes them can destroy everything that has been built up.

    The end of the empire could also be accidental. Europe and Christianity are no longer synonymous at all but things could have gone different. What if another faith had taken hold and displaced it? Early on one of the rivals of Rome could have destroyed everything. One has to wonder what the important people back then knew and what their aims were. Was Hannibal 'just' a brilliant general? Was Ardashir's attempt to bring back the eternal thorn in Rome's eye backed by the aforementioned counter-Longinus society?

    Islam could have become the European faith if things went differently. Who then are the 'defenders of the faith'? What if they had died? Why did the crusades happen? Was Constantine IX an uncompromising hero or a double agent? Was the fall of Constantinople the first step of a grand plan that has been narrowly averted?
    >> red black spiderman !!gmZ7B9l1yE+ 07/09/08(Wed)21:23 No.2178993
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    For that matter, IS Christ the only way to immortality? Could it be that the other religions are alternative paths? Why then do they oppose each other? Could I ask any more questions?

    In modern times it will be a lot harder to extinguish the Ideas of the Empire. We must think of the future though. Five billion years is a long time for a hairless monkey, but it's hardly eternity. What happens when the sun becomes a red giant?
    Should we have taken to the stars by then we will be able to keep our ties to immortality a little longer. There are a lot of problems to be overcome before that can happen though. Maybe people aren't meant for space though. If it is ideas that we preserve, maybe Neuman machines containing all data on our civilization are the answer. In the long run we have to consider the end of the galaxy and eventually the heat death of the universe. How does our clever plan for immortality survive that?
    >> red black spiderman !!gmZ7B9l1yE+ 07/09/08(Wed)21:25 No.2179008
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    Finally consider what problems the PCs face on a smaller scale. If they work for the society they have to somehow make sense of contradicting information, deliberately vague orders and people that pretend to know less -or more- than they really do.

    An organization like this doesn't survive and keep its secrecy by neatly typing out their plan of action and storing it on disc. It might be said that the biggest obstacle to getting shit done is the society itself.

    If, on the other hand, they oppose the society...well, they are up against a group that blocks *its own members* in the aforementioned ways. Good luck going up against that.

    Or the PCs could be innocent bystanders. They don't want to know or change shit. They want to go back to their lives, their families, studies or jobs. But they know too much. They cannot themselves believe what they have learned, but that's not going to cut it for the society. They have to be removed.
    >> red black spiderman !!gmZ7B9l1yE+ 07/09/08(Wed)21:26 No.2179018
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    Relevant to this thread.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)21:30 No.2179036
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    While I don't want to shoot my entire wad since my players just might read this board, but there is another element to the campaign that is very exciting:


    The basic plot goes like this:

    There are several known instances of Roman soldiers being captured by the Parthians and transferred to the East for border duty. According to Pliny, in 54 BCE, after losing at the battle of Carrhae, 10,000 Roman prisoners were displaced by the Parthians to Margiana to man the frontier (of the 40,000 troops under Crassus, half had lost their lives, one quarter escaped, and one quarter were taken prisoner):

    "It was to this place (Margiana) that Orodes conducted such of the Romans as had survived the defeat of Crassus" (Plin. Hist. Nat. 6. 18[2])

    About 18 years later the nomadic Xiongnu chief Zhizhi established a state in the nearby Talas valley, near modern day Taraz. The Chinese have an account by Ban Gu of about "a hundred men" under the command of Zhizhi who fought in a so-called "fish-scale formation" to defend Zhizhi's wooden-palisade fortress against Han forces, in the Battle of Zhizhi in 36 BCE. The historian Homer Dubs claimed that this might have been the Roman testudo formation and that these men, who were captured by the Chinese, were able to found the village of Liqian (Li-chien) in Yongchang County.[3]
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)21:34 No.2179057
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)21:44 No.2179101
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    Crassus was the richest Roman of the day, but his military victories paled in comparison to Caesar and Pompey, the other men in the first Triumverate. Goaded on by Caesar, he took his legion to fight the Parthians, and failed miserably at Carrhae.

    Critics of the Romans in China theory point out that if the city that stood against the Chinese really did contain Romans with their wood fort and their testudo, and if these Romans really were Crassus' "Lost Legion" then they'd be middle aged and older men by the time they faced the Chinese.

    But this observation, and the entire idea that so many survived and were taken prisoner and conscripted by the Parthians might be the immortality. Perhaps they were slain at Carrhae but didn't really die, and thus the Persians dealt with them by marching them to their eastern border... they'd still be in fit shape to face the Chinese attack.

    Not that this plot is dependent on the immortality aspect, but it would certainly open the door for the "Lost Legion" to adventure up and down the Silk Road. Disillusioned by Crassus wasting their lives in folly, free from their obligations to Rome who no longer knows they exist, and perhaps prevented from return due to the increased tension between Rome and Parthia that existed during Caesar and after.

    Members of this Legion just very well have met Jesus on his trip to the East during his youth and some return to Judea with him. Perhaps they even use or create Jesus for their own gain. What if Jesus was one of them form the start?

    Mithraism was the major troop mystery cult of the era and there is much of Christianity that is stolen from Mithraism. Perhaps the Legion believed that they were divine and the fulfillment of Mithraic prophecy.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)21:48 No.2179122
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    pic related
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)21:49 No.2179131
    Does anyone notice this guy looking a LITTLE bit like Putin?
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)21:51 No.2179140

    I am NOW
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)22:01 No.2179210
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    Epic thread. Genius on multiple levels and from multiple anons.


    Please Vote
    >> red black spiderman !!gmZ7B9l1yE+ 07/09/08(Wed)22:02 No.2179212
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    Knew I forgot something. Besides Islam another possible threat were the Mongols, if things had gone differently. Not because of their own faith but because of their religious tolerance. They saw faith as a personal thing and this could have stopped the spread of Christianity.

    This keeps getting better and better. Kudos. Did you work on the Deus Volt idea?
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)22:03 No.2179224
    Leave Caeser to me...
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)22:04 No.2179230
    That picture is incredibly awesome, by the way.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)22:05 No.2179234
    Oh hey, Mount & Blade.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)22:24 No.2179349
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    I read some of the Deus Volt and was very impressed. I didn't contribute. This idea has been percolating for a few years, mostly the desire to do a historical Roman campaign.

    It just didn't seem to fit into DnD and despite loving the setting I didn't have the story I wanted. But with this a decent story is coming together.

    I love the era of the end of the Republic and early Empire... but the battles against Gaul and Germany aren't as interesting to me as the Roman east. Petra, Palmyra, Egypt. They're just more exotic and foreign than proto-French and proto-Germans.

    There's also much potential for this idea hundreds of years after Caesar and Christ. The disillusionment that is so palpable in pulp like the Da Vinci Code... uncovering past lies... versus living the conspiracy as it happens.

    But I'd like to keep this within 50 years of 1 AD... so no Islam, no Mongols. In their place, though, are still fertile Zoroastrianism and the Xiongnu (the Eastern Huns).
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)22:32 No.2179408
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    This particular timing, however, has its downside. Most of the Rome source material tends to set the majority of their fluff hundreds of years into the Empire. Sure, a lot of it is still playable and relevant, but systems like FVLMINATA are very much wrapped up in what happens in the third century AD.

    I'm also quite fond of a cynical and conspiracy theory based debunking of Christ, especially when it involves exposing the historical record that the church would rather you forget about.

    It's part of a good yarn, when you find spectacular TRUTHS and then construct your made up story around it.
    >> The Ingredients of Christ Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)22:44 No.2179500
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    A Procession of Gods that influenced the Christ myth:

    Attis of Phrygia

    The story of Attis, the crucified and resurrected Phrygian son of God, predates the Christian savior by centuries, in the same area as the gospel tale. Attis shares the following characteristics with Jesus:
    · Attis was born on December 25th of the Virgin Nana.
    · He was considered the savior who was slain for the salvation of mankind.
    · His body as bread was eaten by his worshippers.
    · His priests were “eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven.”
    · He was both the Divine Son and the Father.
    · On “Black Friday,” he was crucified on a tree, from which his holy blood ran down to redeem the earth.
    · He descended into the underworld.
    · After three days, Attis was resurrected on March 25th (as tradition held of Jesus) as the “Most High God.”
    >> Ingredients of Christ Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)22:50 No.2179553
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    The Buddha

    The Buddha character has the following in common with the Christ figure:
    · Buddha was born on December 25thccl of the virgin Maya, and his birth was attended by a “Star of Announcement,”ccli wise mencclii and angels singing heavenly songs.ccliii
    · At his birth, he was pronounced ruler of the world and presented with “costly jewels and precious substances.”ccliv
    · His life was threatened by a king “who was advised to destroy the child, as he was liable to overthrow him.”cclv
    · Buddha was of royal lineage.
    >> Ingredients of Christ Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)22:53 No.2179570
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    Buddha and Christ cont'd:

    · He taught in the temple at 12.cclvi
    · He crushed a serpent’s head (as was traditionally said of Jesus) and was tempted by Mara, the “Evil One,” when fasting.
    · Buddha was baptized in water, with the “Spirit of God” or “Holy Ghost” present.cclvii
    · He performed miracles and wonders, healed the sick, fed 500 men from a “small basket of cakes,” and walked on water.cclviii
    · Buddha abolished idolatry, was a “sower of the word,” and preached “the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness.”
    · His followers were obliged to take vows of poverty and to renounce the world.cclx
    · He was transfigured on a mount, when it was said that his face “shone as the brightness of the sun and moon.”cclxi
    · In some traditions, he died on a cross.cclxii
    · He was resurrected, as his coverings were unrolled from his body and his tomb was opened by supernatural powers.cclxiii
    · Buddha ascended bodily to Nirvana or “heaven.”
    · He was called “Lord,” “Master,” the “Light of the World,” “God of Gods,” “Father of the World,” “Almighty and All knowing Ruler,” “Redeemer of All,” “Holy One,” the “Author of Happiness,” “Possessor of All,” the “Omnipotent,” the “Supreme Being,” the
    “Eternal One.”
    · He was considered the “Sin Bearer,” “Good Shepherd,” the “Carpenter,” the “Infinite and Everlasting,” and the “Alpha and Omega.”
    · He came to fulfill, not destroy, the law.
    · Buddha is to return “in the latter days” to restore order and to judge the dead.”
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)22:54 No.2179582
    just got through the thread, nice work /tg/.

    i just had a small idea about some of the fluff, possibly a plot hook.

    such a society would want to keep itself completely unknown (for very obvious reasons). So what if, long ago, they decided that it was too risky to record on any sort of medium their secrets, and so they commit everything that is of utmost importance to the memories of the top members? furthermore, this information is broken up into pieces, so that any given "scribe" has knowledge only of one little bit, so if they are captured by the enemy, they only have a small bit of information to give. this information may not even make any sense in itself, but merely be a poem, song, or code that only makes sense if one knows all the pieces. as the cultists get older they take on apprentices and pass on their knowledge. this could be used as a plot hook if the party is working against the cult, they could try to locate and capture all the scribes and discover the secret. or they could instead try to destroy the cult by assassinating a single scribe and all his apprentices, thus rendering the whole secret irretrievable.
    >> Ingredients of Christ Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)22:58 No.2179606
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    · Dionysus was born of a virgin on December 25thcclxxvii and, as the Holy Child, was placed in a manger.
    · He was a traveling teacher who performed miracles.
    · He “rode in a triumphal procession on an ass.”cclxxviii
    · He was a sacred king killed and eaten in an eucharistic ritual for fecundity and purification.
    · Dionysus rose from the dead on March 25th.
    · He was the God of the Vine, and turned water into wine.
    · He was called “King of Kings” and “God of Gods.”
    · He was considered the “Only Begotten Son,” “Savior,” “Redeemer,”
    “Sin Bearer,” “Anointed One,” and the “Alpha and Omega.”cclxxix
    · He was identified with the Ram or Lamb.cclxxx
    · His sacrificial title of “Dendrites” or “Young Man of the Tree” intimates he
    was hung on a tree or crucified.cclxxxi

    As Walker says, Dionysus was “a prototype of Christ with a cult center at
    Jerusalem,” where during the 1st century BCE he was worshiped by Jews, as noted.
    Dionysus/Bacchus’s symbol was “IHS” or “IES,” which became “Iesus” or “Jesus.”
    >> red black spiderman !!gmZ7B9l1yE+ 07/09/08(Wed)23:01 No.2179625
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    Funny, I've been preparing a campaign based on pseudoRomans vs pseudoGaul for quite a while now. After playing KoDP the barbarians turned into Celtics/Vikings though.
    It's a romanticized view of history of course, but I love the idea of brave barbarians defending their freedom from the empire. I know damn well it didn't quite happen that way but I still like the idea of it.

    >But I'd like to keep this within 50 years of 1 AD... so no Islam, no Mongols. In their place, though, are still fertile Zoroastrianism and the Xiongnu (the Eastern Huns).
    Oh, I was just throwing ideas out there. Use what you like and discard the rest. I sadly don't have the time to run a campaign like this but this thread got my creative juices flowing.

    As for the disillusionment with the Secretly Evil Church...there must be a hundred jrpgs and anumes about that by now but you might want to look into the Reformation instead. Sadly no satanic grimoires in the Vatican libraries or alien beings lurking under St. Peter's Basilica but the fact that it actually happened makes up for a lot.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)23:03 No.2179643
    Wouldn't he just go by a different name entirely? He might have already once changed his name from Cain to Gaius. This could work well in a kind of investigatory game, but as far as standard fare DnD, it'd be hard to come to that conclusion without some DM spoonfeeding and direct research that leads to DM spoonfeeding.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)23:04 No.2179655
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    Very intriguing idea. I like how it works in with the idea of immortality as well... since we all forget. It's part of the reason we stay sane and normal.

    BBC had a program on about a woman who can not forget. While at first you might think that it is a major gift, perfect memory, but think of all the embarrassments, the insults, the deaths, that we only move past as time dulls the vividness of the memory.

    How does a long lived being process their life? What happens as they forget. At some point, even if you kept a journal, you'd spend all of your time simply reading your journals to remember who you were.

    What if physical "death" hastens that process such that if the PCs are killed, they in fact lose much of the details of who they were. They might even find out in their journey that THEY are the monsters they are seeking.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)23:10 No.2179697
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    > I love the idea of brave barbarians defending their freedom from the empire

    Remember that the Germans kept their freedom for almost the entire length of the Empire. They were conquered, Augustus declared the PAX ROMANA, and the Germans successfully revolted mere months later.

    They are a fantastic enigma in that regard. So close to home, to Rome, but yet they never relented. You can tell I have some Austrian blood in me. I love Rome, but grandpappy told them to fuck off. :c)
    >> Ingredients of Christ Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)23:18 No.2179753
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    Heracles, or Hercules, is well-known for his 12 labors, which correspond to the 12 signs of the zodiac (compare to the 12 Apostles) and are demonstrations of his role as “Savior.” Born of a virgin, he was also known as the “Only Begotten” and “Universal Word.”cclxxxv The virgin mother of Heracles/Hercules was called Alcmene, whose name in Hebrew was “almah,” the “moon-woman,” who, as Walker says, “mothered sacred kings in the Jerusalem cult, and whose title was bestowed upon the virgin Mary. Parallels between earlier myths of Alcmene and later myths of Mary were too numerous to be coincidental. Alcmene’s husband refrained from sexual relations with her until her god-begotten child was born.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)23:21 No.2179766
    Here I have much simpler explanation for the story of the man now known as Christ. The figure of Christ has much in common with a Greek hero. If you study the Gospel you realize the story of Christ shares much in common with Aristotle. They are both considered to be very thought provoking men, constantly engage in questioning of traditional customs, are both persecuted by their own country, considered to be living in poverty, and are known to engage in either a philosophical debate or in the case of Jesusa a Midrash. Now then, if you look at the other Gospels, we see Jesus' descent into Hell or the Underworld. This underworld is in fact quite similar to the Greek concept of the Underworld partly due to nearly every human going to down there and because Satan is not the ruler.Rather it is a figure known as the Prince of Hell (Hades)
    >> Ingredients of Christ Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)23:24 No.2179784
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    Horus, shares the following in common with Jesus:
    · Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
    · His earthly father was named “Seb” (“Joseph”).
    · He was of royal descent.ccxci
    · At age 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.
    · Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan)ccxcii by “Anup the Baptizer” (“John the Baptist”),ccxciii who was decapitated.
    · He had 12 disciples, two of whom were his “witnesses” and were named “Anup” and “Aan” (the two “Johns”).
    · He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus (“El-Osiris”), from the dead.
    · Horus walked on water.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)23:29 No.2179818
    I could go on and on about the banned Gospels, however lets stick with what most people know for now.Jesus dies on the Cross and is reborn. One common interpretation for this is that Jesus has conquered death. A common trait amongst most Greek heroes is their conquest of Death, whether through a journey to the Underworld or by ascending to Olympus. Even the early Christians' perception of Hell was very similar to the Greek idea of the underworld. This theory can in fact be supported the evidence of the Septuagint which is the Hebrew bible written in Greek; and process which had to occur due to the overwhelming number of Jews who were Greek Speakers. Also very few of the Gospels are written in Aramaic. Most of the Gospels and indeed the ones used for the bible were originally written in Greek.
    >> Ingredients of Christ Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)23:32 No.2179830
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    · His personal epithet was “Iusa,” the “ever-becoming son” of “Ptah,” the “Father.”ccxciv He was thus called “Holy Child.”ccxcv
    · He delivered a “Sermon on the Mount” and his followers recounted the “Sayings of Iusa.”ccxcvi
    · Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
    · He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and resurrected.
    · He was also the “Way, the Truth, the Light,” “Messiah,” “God’s Anointed Son,” the “Son of Man,” the “Good Shepherd,” the “Lamb of God,” the “Word made flesh,” the “Word of Truth,” etc.
    · He was “the Fisher” and was associated with the Fish (“Ichthys”), Lamb and Lion.
    · He came to fulfill the Law.ccxcvii
    · Horus was called “the KRST,” or “Anointed One.”ccxcviii
    · Like Jesus, “Horus was supposed to reign one thousand years.”ccxcix
    >> Ingredients of Christ Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)23:41 No.2179896
    I could go on with similar links between Christ and Krishna of India, Mithra of Persia, Prometheus of Greece, Quetzalcoatl of Mexico, Serapis of Egypt, Zoroaster, etc.

    Suffice it to say that the bullet points of the Christ myth are readily found in other more ancient religions and mystery cults.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)23:41 No.2179901

    Re: Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle:

    These three great Greek luminaries were, oddly enough, highly esteemed by early Christian conspirators, who, as they had with so many preceding purveyors of wisdom and ideologies, falsely presented these savants’ known accomplishments in philosophy as divine revelation to the Church. Such appropriation was recognized by the ancients themselves. For instance, Amelius, a Platonist of the 3rd century, “upon reading the first verse of St. John the Evangelist, exclaimed, ‘By Jove, this barbarian agrees with our Plato.’”mcxxiv Cardinal Palavicino is quoted as saying, “Without Aristotle we should be without many Articles of Faith.”mcxxv It is amusing to consider that the omniscient “Lord,” who came to deliver a “New Dispensation,” needed the writings of Aristotle to determine doctrine for “his” Church. It is likewise interesting that, by constantly “borrowing from” and aligning themselves with exalted philosophers who were recognized as having penetrated the mysteries of the cosmos, the Christians themselves admitted just how advanced were their predecessors. Thus, we discover that the image of the ancient world as portrayed by Christianity is utterly false.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)23:42 No.2179906
    Jesus shares this in common with my Israeli Terrier.

    Both were born on December 25th
    In the sky there was a star that was particularly bright that night.
    His birth was heralded by three other dog owners bearing gifts of flea spray, gold plated dog tags and febreeze.
    Both were born in the middle East.
    Upon the birth of my Israeli Terrier, another dog grew jealous and attempted to slaughter all the puppies that were born that night. However this dog was promptly falcon punched and put back into its kennel.

    ZOMG! Do you guys think that the birth of my Israeli Terrier inspired the birth of Jesus? I mean just look at all these connections between the two!
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)23:46 No.2179945

    If you can weave an entertaining RPG session around your Jew dog, by all means. The purpose of this exercise is not to convert the Christians, it's to add spice to a game of make believe set at a time when Christfags were a cult, formed in a stew of other cults.

    Conspiracy theories make for interesting fluff for fantasy RPGing. We could care less how coincidental or ellaborate the connections here are... since it's simply up to the GM to determine what is truth.

    This isn't biblical archeology prove Christ true or false, this is an exercise in story creation.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)23:49 No.2179973
    How on Earth does this make Christianity utterly false? If anything it means that Christianity was built from Reasoning and Logic. Whether or not Christ exists doesn't matter.The point is that Philosophical Christian writings actually have a great deal of knowledge worked into. The problem is that the world has fallen into such a high level of empirical bullshit and it is because of this that people are starting to become apathetic and questioning towards anything thinking that we are intelligent creatures for doing. We have forgotten just how important rational and immaterial forms are.
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)23:51 No.2179996
    Why not play Exalted then? It has a mesh of all the world religions and its fairly easy to make it into a conspiracy game?
    >> Anonymous 07/09/08(Wed)23:59 No.2180051

    You are missing the purpose of this thread and this fluff. This is not /b/ and we're not crucifying the Christfags. This is Da Vinci code... in the FICTION isle, not the non-Fiction isle. The interesting thing here is the MYTH of Christ and the dogma we add for flavor.

    The reason I'm adding the similarities with other myths is to add possible connections that can be used in the story. Perhaps the Longinus society has implanted these universal ideas in multiple cultures. (I recall the Dune series had a plot like this, the Bene Gesseritt implanted messiah myths thousands of years earlier and then fulfilled these myths themselves, etc.) .

    Go prove/disprove Jesus on your own time. Here, Jesus is just a plot piece like Caesar. Something that is common enough to be approachable but foreign enough to twist for plot and intrigue.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)00:03 No.2180083
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    Mostly because Exalted very conspicuously dodges this issue (Christ) and is not a historically compatible campaign with the supplements that are already available to me in GURPS.

    If there's some plot idea within Exalted that is relevant, please share. Anon has already enlightened us to such elements in Vampire the Requiem. We don't have to play VtR to take advantage of them.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)00:12 No.2180136

    Time period is stated 50 BC - 50 AD.... well before Christianity was anything other than a very small cult (it might not have existed at all in this period) and well before Islam.

    The OP is also looking for plot, not mechanics. We've established that this idea will likely be played out in a near historically accurate Rome using GURPS.

    From my experience with Exalted, it is not appropriate as a system and the fluff is more cirucmspect and certainly derivative of the Christian RELIGION and the religion of Islam, i.e. the practice of those faiths after the founding people lived.

    I.e. The opulence and Gothic over the top gilded elements of a Roman Mass or the Papacy and the Vatican are so very different than a poor teacher in the desert and the cultists who started the faith in caves.

    The mood of this thread suggests that the suspension of disbelief and fantasy is shifted away from Jesus and more towards the society and possible immortality. This isn't the same kind of Myth system as Exalted.
    >> The Ingredients of Christ Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)00:16 No.2180161
         File :1215663376.jpg-(112 KB, 307x419, Horus_Osiris_Isis.jpg)
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    Osiris/Horus continued. Accidentally posted as its own thread.

    Furthermore, inscribed about 3,500 years ago on the walls of the Temple at Luxor were images of the Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of Horus, with Thoth announcing to the Virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus; with Kneph, the “Holy Ghost,” impregnating the virgin; and with the infant being attended by three kings, or magi, bearing gifts. In addition, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis—the original “Madonna and Child.”
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)00:20 No.2180196
    Well you could basically use the same system as exalted and most of the same background.Take for instance that the world of exalted ended somewhere like 100,000 years ago or whatever. The Solar and Lunar Sparks are currently in Limbo, and for whatever reason the Celestial Incarnae are all dead, and Yu Shan itself is pretty much destroyed. The Dragon Blooded are nearly wiped out with the exception of a few Roman families and the occasional Lost Eggs that appear here and there. Jesus was simply nothing more then a Zenith who left behind a religion in a shattered world that is attempting to understand his greatness. The few Dragon Blooded who are left corrupt his teachings to the point where they are essentially placed on top (once again). How does this sound so far?
    >> Marca Reg !!XL717J3DDe9 07/10/08(Thu)00:23 No.2180215

    No, look, shut up. Exalted is in no way relevant to this thread at all.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)00:30 No.2180258
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    Here's a plot that ties all of the proto-Jesus religion ideas together with the themes of the campaign.

    What if these immortals didn't know why they were immortal or even if they weren't just long-lived. After they achieve fame and fortune, what would they spend the centuries doing, if not searching for answers.

    What if the PCs are part of that search. They must investigate the lands and cultures that you have listed, Egypt, Persia, Greece, etc. and collect any information and artefacts they can to piece together the "truth."

    The society decides that these parallels must not be coincidence, and that they must hint at the greater truths and the reasons for their conditions. That many of these dogs were immortal or ressurected... are they not searching for their own history and others like them? Just as we are interested in Rome because it is our own history and in Christ, etc. because they supposedly give us answers to our questions?

    What if Socrates and Aristotle and Plato were immortals, what if they formed their theories because philosophy is the high art in fashion among the immortals.

    What if the PCs are Roman spies or spies of this Society sent to vet this Christ figure, just as they had vetted Christ and determine if he is THEIR messiah or simply one of them... independent (or more enlightened) than the myths they have woven into the ancient religions.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)00:36 No.2180316
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    I meant to say "vetted Christ just like they vetted Caesar."

    The excitement here might be in that no one on earth has the answers. We imagine the Illuminati and such as people who KNOW!! and we do the same with our priests and messiashs, they KNOW....

    What if the society had more knowledge, but certainly not the answers they wanted. What if they were just as hungry for the keys of the universe, the reason for their existence, a GOD who could tell them why they exist and what their power is supposed to be used for... Just like the masses might have found some of those answers in the main stream cults.

    This is parallel to our own modern times, where we have more answers, more knowledge, but we still don't have ALL the answers.

    "God" and Jesus might be enough for most people most of the time, but we still seek more.

    Perhaps that is the case in the campaign. The Longinus society simply has more information based upon their extended lives.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)00:39 No.2180334
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    >Perhaps this person is even more ancient, Cane perhaps, and time and no rest in death has made him crazy or some sort of pilot of history. What if he is part of a secret society?
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)00:40 No.2180338
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    He is.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)00:42 No.2180356
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    I think that gay flag was uncalled for.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)00:50 No.2180420
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    If I were RPing a 1st century Roman, I'd love the idea of exploring new territory as part of a black ops kind of secret society. To visit the lands and cultures that we don't already have Rome-meets-____ stories from, especially at the time.

    Exploring the Silk Road into India to research the Buddha, into China, into Persia and into Egypt.

    Of course you'd want to play the Rome cliches (kill Barbarians, Gladiator fights, Chariot races), but the prospects of mixing our rather good knowledge of Roman culture with our lack of scholarship on Rome-meets-China, etc. would make for a flavorful campaign that could go where the PCs wanted to go.

    If they want to play the tried and true Barbarians or go to the Insualae Brittanica, the added element of being God detectives brings something new to those tried and true tropes.

    But what's the point of playing in an era of Empire if you don't explore the wild and unfamiliar fringes?
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)00:58 No.2180487
         File :1215665881.jpg-(91 KB, 615x760, Bd-Aeneas.jpg)
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    This entire idea fits so well into the foundational myths of Rome, it's crazy.

    Rome prided itself in being the intellectual heirs of Greece and the foundation myths of Rome also linked them to the great civilizations of the Med.

    The whole idea that Aeneas escaped Troy and fled to Italy and that his descendants founded Rome. Perfect fodder for another character to add to the story.

    What if Aeneas was the founding member of this society? What if he fled Troy simply because he survived by being resurrected or was immortal?

    Aeneas was the son of a King and a Goddess (Aphrodite) and Caesar himself traced his lineage to Aphrodite, he even visited her named city in Turkey to ask for blessings and sacrifice to her for victory.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)00:58 No.2180494
    Just a quick thought:

    The counter-Longinus society. Perhaps they believe that the various figures in other cultures that resemble the Christ myth are there to "muddy the waters". Think along the lines that the stereotypical "Jesus freak" high school kid would argue. Except consider that instead of blaming some devil-figure, these guys KNOW there's a conspiracy out there that's old and powerful enough to do it.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)01:06 No.2180537
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    I think we've made a link here between the proto-Jesus figures, immortals, and Rome. Remember that before Aeneas fled Troy, Troy was sacked and Achilles was "killed."

    Achilles is certainly one of the most famous immortals of the time, if not all time, and with a little creative writing we can link the legacy of Achilles to Aeneas (perhaps they were even the same... perhaps Achilles' death was a split that allowed him to leave behind his role as super hero and start a fresh life).
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)01:33 No.2180759
    I think that members of the Longinus Order gain there immortality through alchemically manufactured the Elixir of Life, which lets them live for long periods of time but eventually kills them in the long run(So more like long life not true immortality) They are constantly searching for the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Life to gain real Immortality and rule the world. The Illuminati exists and their priority is to bring about their New World Order and one world government. Opposing both is the Babelers, another ancient society who is rooted in the fabled Tower of Babylon. They are opposed to both orders on the philosophical belief that God wants there to be as much diversity to cause strife so that only the worthy will inherit the earth come judgment day (Like a Crazy Religious Social Darwinist cult)
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)02:08 No.2180998

    Excellent. We've come back to the Epic of Gilgamesh, where his whole quest was to seek immortality... and the powerful notion of both a Messiah and in disinformation.

    As a slight twist, what if the society implanted their proto-religions in various cultures as an early warning system. If you have all these different peoples, most of them isolated from all but their neighbors, looking for a Messiah, the possible appearance of another special being would spread like wildfire, where as their particular talents might go unnoticed (at least by the Society) otherwise.

    Remember that scene in Mercury Rising where the Autistic kid breaks the code in the back of the magazine, one that only a super computer is supposedly able to break, and that sets off the Feds and all that. Perhaps the Messiah myths are like the code in the book. When someone comes along who breaks them, the shit hits the fan.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)02:10 No.2181016
         File :1215670256.jpg-(211 KB, 1400x1050, Sunset on Babylon.jpg)
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    The Tower of Babel also suggests a global super society that existed before the great old Empires we know today. And this is also fodder to explain the existence of the same myth elements across so many different ancient cultures in respect to their God.

    And Babylon is an incredibly sexy city to set any sort of adventure in, even if just for a visit.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)03:05 No.2181374

    I'm reminded of a short story involving a Tower of Babel that really DID make it all the way to the bottom of the vault of Heaven... where they brought in Egyptian architects and stonemasons to start excavating out the stone upwards, complete with trap doors to seal off the entire project from the inside in case they accidentally struck one of the reservoirs that had been used for the Flood.
    >> red black spiderman !!gmZ7B9l1yE+ 07/10/08(Thu)11:13 No.2183686
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    Still alive. Awesome.

    Reminds me of http://www.class.uh.edu/mcl/faculty/armstrong/cityofdreams/texts/babylon.html

    Maybe we used to have immortality, and we shed it of our own volition. Maybe immortality through Ideas requires a society like in the story. The Longinus society will then not end once it has reached its goals but be transformed into that society. This also gives those opposing them a good reason to do so: better to live free and die than be chained for eternity.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)15:03 No.2184838

    Any idea what it was called?
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)15:04 No.2184844
    >Still Alive.

    This was a triumph.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)15:16 No.2184876
    intresseting stuff.

    I really like the recent Babylon introduction,
    keep the good stuff going!

    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)16:08 No.2185042
    If Aeneas was an immortal who fled burning Troy, what does that imply about...Achilles?
    >> red black spiderman !!gmZ7B9l1yE+ 07/10/08(Thu)17:15 No.2185321
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    Maybe it's...immortal *dramatic music*.

    >What if these immortals didn't know why they were immortal or even if they weren't just long-lived. After they achieve fame and fortune, what would they spend the centuries doing, if not searching for answers.

    >What if the PCs are part of that search. They must investigate the lands and cultures that you have listed, Egypt, Persia, Greece, etc. and collect any information and artefacts they can to piece together the "truth."

    Maybe after a certain amount of time (a few centuries perhaps) some immortals become useless to the society. They become disillusioned from working on so many schemes, seeing so many people die and so much happen. They wander the earth, collect information and artifacts etc.

    As PCs these people would be investigators first and foremost but certainly come into contact with the organization that they were part of from time to time.
    As NPCs these people are wild cards. On one hand they have no grand schemes of their own (or don't they?) but on the other hand they have a lot of information, some of it maybe unknown to the society. They would be interesting conversation partners for the PCs if nothing else.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)17:39 No.2185422
         File :1215725945.jpg-(39 KB, 354x480, Achilles Chariot.jpg)
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    Achilles is the interesting part. It's already established in myth that he was both son of a god and immortal, save his heels. Yet he died at Troy.

    Not only does this provide us a method for the immortality effect (the waters of life), it also allows us the ability for the immortals to die.

    The connection between Achilles and Aeneas would require new fluff to be written. Not really a problem. There are myriad possibilities.

    My understanding of Achilles was that it was impossible to hurt him, not really that he was this aged immortal. So perhaps after his death and funeral pyre, he slowly regenerated, and was "born again" or "resurrected."

    At which point his men are long gone, he is a hero who earned an epic death, won the day, and with the ability to make a fresh start. He changes his name to Aeneas (whom he killed in battle, perhaps) and heads out for a new life and new adventures.

    Only one possibility.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)17:42 No.2185433
         File :1215726170.jpg-(118 KB, 1050x729, aeneas flight from troy.jpg)
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    Stealing right from Wikipedia:

    In the Iliad, Aeneas is the leader of the Dardanians (allies of the Trojans), and a principal lieutenant of Hector, son of the Trojan king Priam. In the poem, Aeneas's mother Aphrodite frequently comes to his aid on the battlefield; he is also a favorite of Apollo. Aphrodite and Apollo rescue Aeneas from combat with Diomedes of Argos, who nearly kills him, and carry him away to Pergamos for healing. Even Poseidon, who normally favors the Greeks, comes to Aeneas's rescue when the latter falls under the assault of Achilles, noting that Aeneas, though from a junior branch of the royal family, is destined to become king of the Trojan people.

    As seen in the first books of the Aeneid, Aeneas is one of the few Trojans who were not killed in battle or enslaved when Troy fell. When Troy was sacked by the Greeks, Aeneas, after being commanded by the gods to flee, gathered a group, collectively known as the Aeneads, who then traveled to Italy and became progenitors of the Romans. The Aeneads included Aeneas's trumpeter Misenus, his father Anchises, his friends Achates, Sergestus and Acmon, the healer Lapyx, the steady helmsman Palinurus, and his son Ascanius (also known as Iulus, Julus, or Ascanius Julius.) He carried with him the Lares and Penates, the statues of the household gods of Troy, and transplanted them to Italy.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)17:52 No.2185477
    The Longinus Assassin is Nyarlathotep.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)17:55 No.2185487
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    From this, we have the observation that Aeneas was retconned by Virgil into a more important role than Homer wrote for him. But we do have the two men (Aeneas and Achilles) both face to face in battle.

    We don't need a perfectly understood mechanism for immortality, just like the ancients didn't know about bacteria and viruses... but they had mythos built around their effects, it's more interesting if the immortals don't know what the mechanism is.

    Perhaps it's a virus that extends or repairs the telomeres on our cells, the ones that get shorter and shorter as we age. The mechanism that even cloning can't undo as far as aging (if you clone a 5 year old animal, the clone will live about 5 years less than normal and will experience the aging effects of a 5 year old as soon as it matures).

    Perhaps this immortality is simply a gift of the gods, and after seeing how devastating Achilles was, the gods gifted Aeneas with the power too. Perhaps Aphrodite discovered the secret from Achilles' mother and protected Aeneas after Achilles killed Hector.

    Men like Caesar trace their lineage to Aphrodite, so perhaps he was annointed as well.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)18:03 No.2185532
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    Although we aren't really dealing with the Cthulhu mythos here, this idea is a good one. We have a nice long thread here all about ancient power and immortality and resurrection and we haven't really focused on EGYPT.

    As noted above, much of the Christ myth deals with elements that Egyptian myth had millenia before. But we also have the Pharoahs and the pyramids, which were literally monuments to immortality.

    A vehicle which would carry the god-King to heaven and the stars.

    The Horus-Osiris and Isis myths are perfect given that they lay down a formula for reincarnation or immortality or resurrection, however you want to spin it. And of course we have the Book of the Dead and the magic nature of it all which has been much tapped by Lovecraft and others.

    Who can forget about mummies? Perhaps they are ancient failed experiments in immortality, or perhaps the undead are one of the results of extended immortality. The fate of all or many of the immortals.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)18:09 No.2185566

    I just posted it as an afterthought, but now that I think about it...

    I'm fairly certain that Jesus was Nyarlathotep. Maybe Caesar had seen Things Man Was Not Meant To Know in the uncivilised Barbarian lands. Maybe he was an agent of the Great Old Ones. Maybe he was planning to introduce worship of, let's say, Shub-Niggurath on an Empire-wide scale. Maybe the Longinus Assassins, or Assassin, are a truly ancient anti-Mythos group.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)18:10 No.2185571

    Or indeed one agent of the Elder Gods. Perhaps even one of them.
    >> red black spiderman !!gmZ7B9l1yE+ 07/10/08(Thu)18:25 No.2185622
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    You have to do something with all the symbols representing eternity/immortality too.

    Also interesting:
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)18:35 No.2185671
         File :1215729339.gif-(16 KB, 240x320, mummy vampire frankenstein.gif)
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    Let's not forget that 3 of the big 4 monsters are riffs on undeadness and immortality: Vampires, Mummies, and the Frankenstein Monster.

    Of course here, Vampires and Mummies are applicable, but the notion that some of the most scary things to the masses are evil beings that some how circumvent death is worth note.

    Perhaps in your mythos you can steal much of the fluff about vampires and mummies but twist it. Say that vampires are "pale" not because they can't be exposed to the light but because their bodies heal so quickly that sun tans disappear (tanning, is, after all, a burning process and a damage process)... for if you had quick regenerative powers your skin would remain fresh and pale (for caucasian people).

    And what if mummies are ancient immortals who were believed to have tapped out their immortality juice, but for some they had just a little left and thus it took centuries before they were "healed" enough for reanimation... but given the time and decay, they are undead and not alive once more.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)18:39 No.2185692
    Although I don't think we need to bring in Cthulhu mythos into the already established Greco-Roman pantheon here, we do seem to be drawing references for ideas from across the board.

    That being the case, the PCs might very well become involved with a Delta Green type organization. They are disavowed by any government or church, despite past cooperation and approval, but they continue their mission to hunt down the abominations and prevent the evil from spreading.

    The same sort of motivations we have for Paladins or Black Ops or assassin guilds.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)18:43 No.2185712
         File :1215729813.jpg-(56 KB, 700x773, Fungus of Longevity.jpg)
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    The Chinese Fungus of Longevity.

    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)19:27 No.2185927

    >Perhaps it's a virus that extends or repairs the telomeres on our cells, the ones that get shorter and shorter as we age.

    I hate to spoil this with Science, but we call this effect 'cancer' I believe
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)20:01 No.2186098
    Theres a great game set in this era

    Zenobia (about half way down the page) is late roman while Warlords of Alexander is, er, Alexandrian ;)
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)20:07 No.2186138
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    This doesn't ruin anything. It only strengthens the observation that the notion of immortality in our culture also includes the taint of the grotesque. It as much of a curse as a blessing.

    While there is a certain level of sophistication given to Vampires, they are confined to the darkness and they feed on the living. Their immortality comes at a high price and is also a dangerous weakness.

    With the more mindless undead, we see the manifestation of anything other than normal life and death is an abomination. Mindlessness. Crazed lust for brains. Decay. They are like death animated instead of life extended.

    Scientifically, the regeneration of telomeres does not cause cancer, it is mutations in the telomere that causes some cancers and the depletion of a telomere that causes cell death through ceased mitosis, etc.

    Cancer is a perfect force that works against immortality in this regard, and perhaps the reason any number of immortals seek a final death.

    There is a theory that Caesar, succumbing to disease, in a way welcomed his assassination. Perhaps the "cancer" was a motivating factor.
    >> Commissar Epynonymous Rex !!taqDd9490Ip 07/10/08(Thu)20:09 No.2186152
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)20:17 No.2186193
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    Let's take this a step further. If we have a group of individuals who have extended life or unnatural healing powers, how do you permanently kill them if not by a process that either cancels their powers or makes their powers a weakness.

    Wouldn't cancer be one such effect? Healing and immortality implies that one's cells are not deteriorating and ageing under the normal process. If you have the ability to keep cells going and to regrow young healthy cells, wouldn't a form of cancer ruin your party?

    The idea is that some forms of cancer are simply an overabundance of healthy tissue that is growing out of control and which doesn't die or which mutates and divides at rates greater than the body is used to. Uncontrolled growth kinds of cancers versus destructive and erosive cancers.

    Perhaps this is a weapon or a strategy given by one of the other gods to combat the immortals.

    Or perhaps the great scientists of the day think cancer is a means to reach immortality given that tumors are apparently unaffected by the normal cell death process.

    Cancer just may well be the key to human immortality, but like fire, we must control it and tame it and extract it for our use... because it is wild and deadly in nature.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)20:34 No.2186292
    god damn this thread is amazing
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)20:40 No.2186320
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    That snake image gave me an idea.

    The ancients worshiped snakes, especially in regards to medicine and life, because snakes shed their skins and are thus thought to be immortal, renewing their life with each shedding of skin.

    One symbol of Modern and Ancient Medicine is the Caduceus and the Rod of Asclepius. It's not a far stretch to see the twin snakes as a double helix of DNA.

    This symbolism can link many of the notions we have here. The tree of knowledge and life, famous figures such as Moses (and his magic rod that turned into a snake), Adam and Eve... etc.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)20:51 No.2186378
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    We also have dualism of the Rod of Moses vs. the Rod of Aaron. We all remember the Rod of Moses, but his brother was also gifted with a Rod that turned into a snake, etc. I'd need to read up on it, but it might be that ONLY Aaron's rod turned into the serpent.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)20:59 No.2186431
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    This is a fantastic addition. Snakes. Fuck yeah.


    There's so much fodder here to enrich the story, it's ... orgasmic.

    Some cultures regarded snakes as immortal because they appeared to be reincarnated from themselves when they sloughed their skins. Snakes were often also associated with immortality because they were observed biting their tails to form a circle and when they coiled they formed spirals. Both circles and spirals were seen as symbols of eternity. The circle was particularly important to Dahomeyan myth where the snake-god Danh circled the world like a belt, corsetting it and preventing it from flying apart in splinters. In ancient Egypt, the snake biting its tail symbolised the sea as the eternal ring which enclosed the world.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)23:08 No.2186981
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    Snakes are as near to a universal symbol of immortality as you're going to find. I'd run with it. Not only does it link the Ancient cultures of Egypt, China, Greece, etc., but also the Ancient New World Cultures of the Inca and Aztec who had snakes running up and down their pyramids.

    Anon mentioned that some elements of the Quetzalcoatl myth mesh with the story of the Jesus myth, and, well, Quetz is a snake with wings. Immortal god, with wings, snake. It really has it all.
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)23:15 No.2187008
    >Anon mentioned that some elements of the Quetzalcoatl myth mesh with the story of the Jesus myth

    Anon's source for the Christ = Other Gods stuff was a book called: The Christ Conspiracy, The Greatest Story Ever Sold by Acharya S. You can find it in torrents pretty easily.

    I'll find the passage about Quetzalcoatl and post it in a minute.
    >> Quetz 1 Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)23:16 No.2187017
    Quetzalcoatl of Mexico
    Modern scientific orthodoxy allows neither for the date provided by Graves, i.e.,
    that the Mexican Quetzalcoatl originated in the 6th century BCE, nor for pre-
    Columbian contact between the “Old” and “New” Worlds. The evidence, however,
    reveals that the mythos was indeed in Mexico long before the Christian era,
    suggesting such contact between the Worlds. In fact, tradition holds that the ancient
    Phoenicians, expert navigators, knew about the “lost land” to the West. One would
    therefore not be surprised to discover that the stories of the New World were
    contained in ancient libraries prior to the Christian era, such as at Alexandria, as was
    averred by Graves.cccxxx
    >> Quetz 2 Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)23:18 No.2187036
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    However it got there, there can be no doubt as to the tremendous similarity
    between the Mexican religion and Catholicism. As Doane remarks:
    For ages before the landing of Columbus on its shores, the inhabitants of ancient
    Mexico worshiped a “Saviour”—as they called him—(Quetzalcoatle) who was born of
    a pure virgin. A messenger from heaven announced to his mother that she should
    bear a son without connection with man. Lord Kingsborough tells us that the
    annunciation of the virgin Sochiquetzal, mother of Quetzalcoatle—who was styled
    the “Queen of Heaven”—was the subject of a Mexican hieroglyph.cccxxxi
    >> Quetz 3 Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)23:21 No.2187055
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    Quetzalcoatl was also designated the morning star, was tempted and fasted for
    40 days, and was consumed in a eucharist using a proxy, named after Quetzalcoatl.
    As Walker says:
    This devoured Savior, closely watched by his ten or twelve guards, embodied the god
    Quetzalcoatl, who was born of a virgin, slain in atonement for primal sin, and whose
    Second Coming was confidently expected. He was often represented as a trinity
    signified by three crosses, a large one between the smaller ones. Father Acosta
    naively said, “It is strange that the devil after his manner hath brought a Trinity into
    idolatry.” His church found it all too familiar, and long kept his book as one of its
    >> Quetz 4 Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)23:22 No.2187061
    The Mexicans revered the cross and baptized their children in a ritual of regeneration and rebirth long before the Christian contact.cccxxxiii In one of the few
    existing Codices is an image of the Mexican savior bending under the weight of a
    burdensome cross, in exactly the same manner in which Jesus is depicted. The
    Mexican crucifix depicted a man with nail holes in feet and hands, the Mexican
    Christ and redeemer who died for man’s sins. In one crucifix image, this Savior was
    covered with suns.cccxxxiv Furthermore, the Mexicans had monasteries and nunneries,
    and called their high priests Papes.cccxxxv
    >> Quetz 5 of 5 Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)23:24 No.2187077
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    The Mexican savior and rituals were so disturbingly similar to the Christianity of
    the conquering Spaniards that Cortes was forced to use the standard, specious
    complaint that “the Devil had positively taught to the Mexicans the same things
    which God had taught to Christendom.”cccxxxvi The Spaniards were also compelled to
    destroy as much of the evidence as was possible, burning books and defacing and
    wrecking temples, monuments and other artifacts.
    >> Aesclepius - Jesus connection Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)23:36 No.2187163
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    Aesclepius is the great healing god of the Greeks who had long, curly hair, wore robes and did miracles, including raising the dead.

    Of Aesclepius, Dujardin relates:
    The word Soter has not only the meaning of Saviour, but also of Healer; it is the title given to Esculapius . . . it is interesting to realize that the same men who carried to the world the revolutionary message of salvation by union with the god were at the same time an organized group of healers, who day by day earned their living by the practice of healing.

    Ancient History of the God Jesus, Edouard Dujardin
    >> Anonymous 07/10/08(Thu)23:55 No.2187318
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    I have existed from the morning of the world and I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. Although I have taken the form of Gaius Caligula, I am all men as I am no man and therefore I am a God.

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