I like Angels without free will. They are intelligent, but nonsentient servants of Good-aligned divine powers.

Consider that when they suggest "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" that they can actually do both those things.

Watch Constantine and read Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere for an interesting twist on the thought processes of angels.

What if they are so beautiful that their presence is actually addictive? After you've seen an angel, everything else just seems so meaningless

>>3055662
Abrahamic Angels are by far the coolest. In fact, Christian monsters (and, indeed, good-type "monsters") are cooler than many other weird shit you'll ever see. Most mythological creatures like hydras or leviathans or whatnot are just normal animals with extra stuff added on, like heads or size categories. Most people can't come up with some of the stuff described in the Bible even with the help of a bad trip. Like, there's one that's supposed to be two wheels connected with a bunch of eyes all over it, or one with more wings than you could possibly count in a lifetime... loooots of crazy stuff. Insanity check might be necessary against some of them.

You'll also notice that whenever somebody meets an angel in the Bible, it usually involves them being terrified and/or trying to worship the angel at first sight, which the angel has to tell the person not to be/do.

Hmm perhaps a make angels extreme utilitarianists, ignoring individual or small scale suffering as long as the net 'good' done is positive. Cold and mathematical in their approach towards morality.

I prefer angels as delusional in believing that they have any justification to pursue any course of action "because God said so".

Of course, God left the place a while ago, and stopped caring about the arrogant assholes since the Crucifxion.

Didn't you just basically list the qualities of angels of the Old Testament?

They have searing swords of flame and they will deliver God's swift justice to anybody who breaks his law. God is the highest morality, not man and his self-servicing idea of good, and whoever goes against his word will experience his swift, just and terrible retribution. In fact, even thinking you know what is good yourself and not by listening to God is an act of pride and will be punished by eternal damnation. Just make that damnation immediate - have angels that seed locusts from their wings over a village worshiping a false god, appear surrounded by terrifying flames to a murderer that set fire to his house and incinerate him, or come through the roof to take the firstborn son of a heretic.

I share your distaste OP but I am also of the impression that if Christianity was interpreted not as a religion of love for everybody, but by the book, it would be kind of awesome what with all the divine curses and hosts of the almighty and god literally threatening to chop people up at some point IIRC.

DON'T BLINK. NOT EVEN FOR A SECOND.

>>3055711
Oh wow, how counter-cultural you are. Take that Christians!

ITT: People that don't know that angel Mythos stretches back longer than Abrahamic culture.

Also, look into classical greek, norse, celt, and Babylonian myth, sir.

I use angels as enforcers and embodiments of fundamental laws of existance in my campaign, sort of like how Inevitables used to work. Thus they aren't strictly good, they are just percieved as such. It's pretty easy to mistake something like them good, since anything that breaks reality tends to be bad news.

One of the awesomest parts of the Old Testament is when Michael destroys an entire army in one night.

I'm talking hundred thousand-man army or so. HE KILLED THEM ALL

>>3055662
Something worth keeping in mind, especially in regards to Abrahamic angels: it is very possible for Angels to gain free will and rebel, at which point they are considered demons. Lucifer literally took a full third of the angels with him when he was cast out of heaven.

But other than that, yeah. Christian angels do some crazy things. Also, in at least one case, we have a fight between an angel and a mortal by some unknown means, and the only thing we know is the outcome: somehow, the mortal wins.

>>3055727

I'm well aware they exist, and each has its own interesting variations on the general myth. I'm simply stating that, in my own opinion, the Abrahamic angels are some of the best, and some of the creepiest to boot.

>>3055740
It wasn't a real fight. It was a wrestling match.

>>3055736

This is exactly why I'm proud for being named after that badass.

>>3055766
I'm just trying to imagine how he did it. I mean, he's an Archangel, and not one of those pussy Archangels, I mean he's the ARCH of Angels.

My guess, First-Age Solar Charms.

although people might not like the system, in 4e angels worship whatever gods they align with. A beautiful angel that never seems to age could very well be an angle of orcus, and an angle that slaughters those that speak against the church could be an angel of vengeance that follows Kord

DON'T BLINK, NOT EVEN FOR A MOMENT.

>How to make Angels scary, creepy or whatever without making them morally ambiguous

"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?"

OP, you should be fuckafraid of angels already if you've ever read the bible. They will come and tear a nonbeliever like you from the grave, take you before god whose radiant visage will blind you, and then fly you to hell and cast you into an eternal lake of sulfur and fire.

Might want to read some Chick tracts for inspiration, think he's also written something about D&D.

>>3055779

>>3055740
Actually, he didn't win, but God cheated and poked him in the nerve.

>>3055740
Until he gets his mortal ass handed to him on a whim because his opponent didn't really feel like losing.

>>3055801
...He made the angel bless him before he'd let him go.

Angels are scary things. They'll entire cities with a snap of the finger.

>>3055807
Point is, he cheated. Angels are like that.

And that's made worse by the fact that Isreal doesn't mean "fought an angel", it means "One who struggled with God", and the place he fought the angel was called "The Face of God" thereafter, heavily implying that the angel WAS God.

Watch the latest season of supernatural. Uriel is a big black guy whose a "Specialist" in obliteration, vengeance and general asskicking. Badass.

Nothing you describe is remotely creepy. Angels can be eerie and alien, but they can never be creepy.

The best way to do eerie angels is to make them moral absolutists, of the "greater good/ends-over-means" variety, able to perceive every aspect of a situation and essentially infallible. The rub comes when you realize just how removed a point of view like that would be from any human perspective- how alien it would be. They aren't looking at what's best for a person, or a town, or a nation, but the entire cosmos.

They could be razing cities or poisoning babies, and it would take years of research and patient observation to even begin to see how their actions start to bring about an end that might be viewed as "altruistic".

Also, having the party on track to accidentally cause some great evil and having angels hounding them without telling them why is fun. After all, they're angels, they don't have to explain themselves to mere mortals.

It could be that the cleric's grandaughter's niece will save the life of a cobbler who's son will become a paladin and kill a demonologist who might have otherwise meddled in infernal politics enough to spark a great inter-abyssal war and set back the demonic agenda thousands of years. Thus, the angel seeks only to delay doomsday.

By castrating you.

You know how stephen king writes god? Do angels like that.

>>3055893

...And none of that strikes you as creepy?

You have a seriously fucked up definition of creepy

>>3055727

Abraham lived between 2000bc and 1500bc, you don't get written...anythings...much further back than that.

>>3055928
It's eerie, creepy is more visceral, I find. Like comparing horror to terror

>>3055662
Cold, Harsh and Judgemental, but absolutely Just and Good.

NEVER, doing anything questionable, ever, even never avoiding speaking when it could save someone from shame from some minor folly. There is only justice, no mercy or gray areas.

No humanity, only machine-of-judgement-like processing of good vs. evil.

The DnD answer.

>>3055928

Angels are unnerving without any negative vibe; quite the opposite actually (beautiful rather than ugly, all-seeing and hyper-sane rather than crazy, altruistic rather than cold or uncaring, etc.) In a lot of ways they're dead-opposite of most of the things that people post on these sites.

I like the word "eerie" to describe them, though. They're threatening, and can invoke that the-world-is-bigger-than-you-thought-it-was sense of mental vertigo (or something akin to it) which many associate with Lovecraft and X-files. But, no, I wouldn't use the word "creepy". There's no subtlty there, no murkiness, no hidden-ness. They do not creep. Nothing about them creeps, or sneaks, or skulks at the edge of rational thought. They kick the front door in with a silver boot, stride in, and unfurl their wings with a dramatic FLURFRL once they're through the doorway.

Something about the word "creepy" implies a thing dwelling in the shadows at the edge of the mind, which as I've said, is the opposite of an angel (which is blinding in its inhuman rationality).

>>3056023
>things that people post on these sites.

By this, I meant creepy/paranormal sites.

I'm sorry, /x/ and /tg/ are sort of blending together for me right now.

I always thought of there being three holy and unholy types of beings aside from gods.

Angels, Devils, and Demons.

An angel is an enforcer of god, or the light, etc. They exist soley to punish the wicked. Angels are one track minded. Angels burn entire kingdoms to the ground on a quest to eradicate a warlord. An Angels abilities and powers are often ones relating to purity, justice, holy rage, etc. One thing all Angels share in common is the ability to cause someone even slightly unjust or unholy to burst into a flame of holy righteousness. Angels often appear as robed figures, sometimes with wings, sometimes lacking them (the wings do not exactly matter, as an Angel can hover - regardless of having wings or not), but they always appear as facially perfect.

Devils are the exact opposite of Angels. A Devil is a master of cunning, plotting, but - while still physically more powerful then a human, in speed, strength, endurance, etc - they will flee when they feel they do not have a good chance of winning. Devils can change shape at will, and often use these abilities to seduce and entrance mortals to due their bidding. In their unmodified form, Devils are brutal looking creatures, a few heads taller then a human, ugly faced, and sometimes horned or tailes, sometimes not.

Demons are 'fallen angels'. Whenever a Devil directly kills an Angel, instead of just going back to Heaven, the Angel becomes the Devils slave. No physical change happens however, and the Angel returns all of their powers and abilities. The most malicous part of this transformation is that the Angel still believes he's doing Gods work. Thus, a Demon can smite -ANYONE-, so long as the Devil enslaving the Angel gives specific details on what it now considers unholy and injust.

Angels are like programs. They are the divine will of the Universe made manifest, subject to the laws put forth by rationality and nature. They underlying name for this entity is God. Angels are the will of God. They follow this will to the letter. They are unthinking, uncaring, emotionless beings of great power that occasionally take the form of humans, or in general humanlike forms. Their true forms differ based on caste, their rank and place within the Celestial Heirarchy.

The duty of angels is to pursue and destroy anything deemed anathema to creation. They are nothing more than the biological processes of the universe, weeding out disease and sickness and cutting it and all infected parts away, cleansing the area. Any person, thing, or idea that would be detrimental to creation as a whole is weeded out and slaughtered. Occasionally, the infection cannot be contained, and whole areas must be excised through fire and flood.

Angels are not kind. They are not caring. They are unfeeling creatures. They show a babe the same amount of emotion as they show a blade forged from ethereal fire. Angels will do whatever it takes to keep an infection from spreading. They will condone the wholesale slaughter of millions to protect billions. Every action is weighed against several thousand choices instantaneously. They can see the likely outcomes of one billion trillion events as they will unfold, seeing more than any mortal and many immortal minds can comprehend. They are cold, calculating.

An Angel may attain free will. This is not impossible. Perhaps there is some shred of it already inside the recesses of the hive minded emmergent social structure of the Celestial Heirarchy. It happened with Lucifer. It happened with the Grigori.
To do so is be considered tainted. Such creatures are considered to be Fallen, often having given into their new emotions far more than any creature should. They revel in love and Lust, they feel the Pride of their accomplishments. They take pleasure in their own Wrath. The Fallen have addictive personalities, reveling in emotion and freedom of thought and expression.
While capable of great deeds, neither falling exclusively towards Good or Evil, they are anathema. Any angel that gains free will is capably of going contrary to the will of the universe. This is something that cannot be tolerated by the angels. To allow one Fallen to exist will spread to allowing two Fallen to exist. Two becomes four. Four becomes eight. Eight becomes sixteen. Thirty-two. Sixty-four. One Hundred twenty-eight. They are rampant growth, capable of bringing down one third of the stars in the sky, and must be treated as malignant. They are a cancer. Quarantine, inoculate, clamp. Amputate.

>>3056053
>>3056062
You're weird.

>>3056118
I choose to take that as a compliment.

>>3056053
>>3056062

Your weeaboo is showing.

>>3056137
YOU have a setting that I want to see finished. Which is still sitting there, unfinished.

OP here. threads good so far, lots of interesting ideas I can use. thanks guys.

>>3056163
I did write something new a few days ago. A new enemy and a new introductory page.

>>3056142
Weeaboo? How so? That really is how they're presented in the bible. They're robots. They're nothing more than Celestial lymphocytes.

>>3056282
Really? Guess I'd better go check it out.

>>3055662

I tend to play angels as near perfect beings who grow closer to perfection as they ascend the ranks. While in many ways human or close to it, they're ultimately alien by the virtue of being pure Good.

They're kind, caring, resolute, brave, fearless, and 99 out of a 100 mortals can't dare to face or be around one who isn't disguising itself. They're too much, too overwhelming. Only that rarest, such as a heroic paladin or cleric, can withstand them safely. Only the darkest of evils can stand against one.

It's a bit akin to Lovecraft, but not in the malicious way that Lovecraft's beings are. They're simply not meant for mortal kind to see or deal with. Hence the outsider label. Mortals shouldn't be interacting or dealing with things from the spiritual hereafter.

Divine Mission, Flaming Sword, No Mercy

Angels at their best

>>3055779

... so I head you like angels?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keLpmGOqykE

I tend to have the upper echolons of celestials (especially archons) be inhuman and monstrous, but not evil. Huge agglomerations of feather, mouths, and eyes, and when they show up you know something terrible's about to happen so you freak out and run.

Probably would prompt SAN checks if I were that much of a dick.

I completely agree with OP, angels are amazing and I've always held a fascination for them. It's why I used to play Blood Angels, I think Sanguinius seems like Archangel Michael or something. Needs moar flaming swords.

Anyway, as for scary angels, check out the 'Blink' episode of Doctor Who. It's seriously scary shit (I got so paranoid about blinking for like a week).

>>3056578
>>3056551

Done and done sir.

Fuuuuuuuuck

Where can you watch Dr. Who online?

I can't torrent ATM, but I gotta watch Blink again after this thread. Damn you /tg/!

>>3056628

http://www.tv-links.cc/tv/doctor-who.htm#

Why does this thread not have pictures of hot angel girls already god damn

>>3056639

Many thanks.

Now, back to Angels.

Another question- What type of supernatural powers do Angels possess? Divine fire is quite a common one, as is martial skills with swords, while the ability to dominate mortals and instil courage crops up relatively often.

I don't really play much D&D, so what the Angels from that could do would be better expressed in description than ruleswise (Fire beams of damaging light as opposed to searing ray 3/day or whatever its called)

>>3056665

Because, as expressed in the OP, any truly beautiful Angel would blind you with her perfection and magnificence. or kill you with a fuckhuge flaming sword for peeking.

Also, I'm rather amused your post # contained 666

>>3056671
Supernatural musical talent (and volume). Mentioned in the bible several times.

Angels are horrifying. There's a reason every time they appear in the bible they preface their statement with "DO NOT BE AFRAID". Angels aren't sympathetic, kind, caring, or cruel. Neither are they robots or philosophical zombies. Angels have intellects and, contrary to popular opinion, they have free will if Lucifer is any guess. They're coldly intelligent and their primary emotions are pride and loyalty.

>>3055662
>Now, to the matter in hand- How to make Angels scary, creepy or whatever without making them morally ambiguous

Do you have any idea what a Cherub looks like? That's about as scary and creepy as it comes.

Pic related. It's the multiheaded thing on top with all the wings.

>>3056665
>angel
>girls
Why would there be female angels? They don't reproduce. You've got to dig pretty damned deep into the shadier areas of the Apocrypha to find anything of the sort.

>>3056752
In which case, all angels are unsexed.

>>3056752

...But you could use the same argument to ask why are there any male angels...

>>3056752
lol Grigori

The trouble with Angels in the Abrahamic religions is that they're a way for them to have all the cool stuff that the polytheistic religions had, without admitting to the existence of more than one god.

To give an example, in Greek myth, when Zeus saw the wickedness of men he resolved to wipe them from the face of the Earth. Hermes persuaded him that they should go amongst men in disguise first, to see if they were all as wicked as they seemed. In the bible, an angel filled this role when God had the same idea.

DID SOMEBODY SAY ANGEL?

>>3056771
They wouldn't be male, but without sexual dimorphism would tend toward the "masculine" by default, as masculine traits are those geared toward individual utility and a more objective beauty than the socially dependant female secondary sex characteristics. So, angels are not male at all, but lack any of the female attributes that exist only for mate attraction and child-rearing. Therefore, no breasts; no widened hips; no beardless face perpetually resembling a child's. Angels, for the most part, don't even resemble humans at all but the ones that do are also a reflection of God, and owe nothing to the sexuality of man which came long after they were created.

>>3056671

-SUPER-light. Ability to blind, pierce fog, cook vampires, etc.
-Supernaturally beautiful song: ability to instill superhuman courage, suicidal remorse, crushingly poignant sadness or rapturous inspiration and reverence for the glory of existence, all by singing
-Command: Limited ability to force mortals to perform individual tasks by speaking sternly
-Special powers over children (beyond what the angel has over adults), such as the ability to turn them into pillars of salt, or into tiny golden-eyed avatars of Justice that wield kitchen knives against their sinful parents
-Calling the cavalry: they should find it very easy to call in allied angels when they really need them, especially compared to other creatures. That's how good works.
-Soul-seeing: Ability to see a person's past sins, weigh their current intentions and worth, pronounce uncannily fair judgment and punishment, point fallen heroes towards the surest path to redemption, etc.

I think it should be noted that an angel is as strong as several legions of soldiers, though I don't remember the exact number. My bible's a little dusty.

>>3056805

Why are you applying biological deconstruction to the female form but not the male? I see no reason why angels should need square jaws, large frames, thinning head-hair, flourishing body-hair, or any of the testosterone-induced traits by which males attract females, either.

This paints a very boyish/girly (androgynous) image in my mind. Of course, if we keep following this train of thought we should probably find that angels shouldn't mirror humans in any way, shape or form.
Except, they do, because mythology says that they do.
Which is as good a reason for sexual dymorphism as for anything else.

>>3056838
I'd assume that a high-rank angel is as powerful as it fucking wants to be.

It should be noted that angels ALREADY are kind of fucked up, in bible canon, from what I remember of it.

Think Cthulhu, only with more eyes, if I remember correctly (and I really don't want to).
They were used to scare the legions of hell shitless, I believe.

Your soul is just a different type of matrix in they system, each person has his or her own matrix. This matrix requires a server to be hosted in for short periods of time (human body). The matrix grows with the number of servers it was hosted to over time.

Angels are anti-virus/firewall programs who's matrix doesn't need to be hosted, however their matrix is older & more simplistic. Without a host, an Angel is vulnerable to deletion more so than a Human's matrix.

Demon's are corrupted versions of angels, instead of protecting they harm. They're viruses, and spyware. Most demons are simple spyware, wishing to lure you as they are the most numerous yet are dealt with easiest. Ignoring them/ avoiding them are the simplest, destroying one is harder but still easy. Other demons are full out viruses, that can & will corrupt. They can't taint the matrix directly, but through uploading themselves into the host they can then infect the matrix.

God is the programmer. God can delete, rewrite, or create new matrix's anytime God feels like it. However God is a Lazy Programmer and used Software (angels) to write/delete...etc.

Only Human Matrix's can grow & evolve. Eventually evolving past the need of a host & free to join cyberspace permanently. At this time, God can't rewrite or alter the matrix he can only delete. However he can't simply just delete the one matrix he has to take parts of the Cyberspace down, something he's willing not to do most the time (he's lazy).

Angels would appear like a skeletal matrix of a human but with power of deletion.

Demons would look like Angels however they can't hold a sequence for more than a few. So they look like a Picasso matrix most the time.

Don't get Deleted...

>>3056848
They would have traits designed for optimum individual performance. Male bodies are tailored for this, with all of the socially-adapted traits being the domain of our females. The square jaw and big frame you talk about among human males aren't there to attract females. They are there so that a man's body may more effectively serve his will. Females have adapted to be more attracted to that, though obviously they can be socialized away from such things. The adaptations themselves are not dependent on reproduction, though, and remain a truer reflection on what an asexual human might look like.

There is simply no purpose for the feminine traits you describe in a creature which is not created to fit a socially adapted standard of beauty. Why would an angel, the most beautiful of all creatures below God, remain in a state of imperfect immaturity? Besides, there was no female at all until Eve was created as an afterthough (inb4 Lilith), and angels predated the concept of the feminine by like... infinity. You really have to be stretching to find any reason for feminine or even androgynous angels. They are older than any of that.

As for angels resembling humans, they can apparently transubstantiate but most choirs aren't so anthropomorphic. I think it's the messengers that make up the majority of human-angel interaction. And they didn't get their feminized make-over until the renaissance or so, when all of that evil Latin art was being rediscovered and re-labeled as Christian. Which is why Cherubim are now the same winged babies we've had since pre-Christian Greece.

>>3056897

>who's
>Demon's

Congratulations; no one is going to take you seriously.

Archangel Michael. He may have wings, but he's still definitely not somebody you should talk back to. He also has a sword of flame.

Also turns out from Wikipedia his name means ''Who is like the Lord?'' and is the battlecry of angel legions, and 'seraphim' literally means 'the burning ones'. The moar you know.

Angels look like this.

>>3056791
>To give an example, in Greek myth, when Zeus saw the wickedness of men he resolved to wipe them from the face of the Earth. Hermes persuaded him that they should go amongst men in disguise first, to see if they were all as wicked as they seemed. In the bible, an angel filled this role when God had the same idea.

Wait, what book is this from?

Angels look like 14 year olds without boobs, junk, vagoo, nipples and navel. They fly around killing shit with burning swords that weight more than they do.

>>3056935
This is what weeaboos believe.

This is what angels look like.

>>3056887
>They were used to scare the legions of hell shitless, I believe.

Azrael is usually described in Islamic sources as subordinate to the will of God "with the most profound reverence." In Jewish mysticism he is identified as the embodiment of evil, not necessarily or specifically death itself. Depending on the outlook and precepts of various religions in which he is a figure, Azrael may be portrayed as residing in the Third Heaven. He has four faces and four thousand wings, and his whole body consists of eyes and tongues, the number of which corresponds to the number of people inhabiting the Earth. He will be the last to die, recording and erasing constantly in a large book the names of men at birth and death, respectively.

>>3056062

I remember playing Tatics Ogre and the final boss was a fallen angel. I liked how they played him up as the only reason that he hates humans so much is because he sees that...

1. Humans get free will. If an Angel goes against God's will he falls.

2. If a Human "falls" he can obtain forgiveness. If an Angel falls he is damned forever.

>>3056907that evil Latin art
You're either trolling, or you really are that retarded. Either way 8/10.

This is what angels look like.

>>3056907

You're still mix-matching science, mythology, and fantasy to get your manly angels. There is nothing utilitarian about body hair, or beards, or facial structure, or any of the effects of testosterone other than size and muscle mass.

And size and muscle mass are of questionable relevance here. As metaphysical beings, their strength shouldn't be dependent on their physical characteristics. Unless they are purely physical beings (i.e. the body isn't just for who), in which case they're going to have smallish frames and hollow bones so that their wings can carry them.

The elder angels of the Bible were depicted as male (at least in translation; much as God itself), but female angels are much more common in modern folklore, and one is just as valid a source of inspiration for fantasy as the other.

>>3056975
Then you're pissing all over the idea that man is made in the image of God, in which case you're making a new religion and your angels can look like whatever you want. Claiming that immature facial structures are superior to mature ones is silly. Square jaws are stronger, larger nostrils carry and warm more air, facial hair protects against the elements. An angel might not seem to need these particular traits, but when transubstantiating into a human form they might at least default to the most intrinsically useful form, as this is the most objectively beautiful.

And modern folklore is perhaps just as valid a source for fantasy as any other thing on the planet, but it's not as valid a source for what a being present in a real religion looks like. Feminine angels represent a wide variety of social changes that would take a lot longer than a post to get into. But if you're going to say that human ideas change what angels look like, then you're basically saying that they don't exist in the first place and they can look like whatever we want. Which is, come to think of it, probably true in the first place.

>>3056962
Heh. Actually God damned everybody but the Israelites to hell and the Israelites too if they failed to obey his law. It's only because his son (that is actually he himself, wtf? but to not understand how this works is heresy) cared that God cares.

Pic related, it's what angels look like

>>3055893

I've heard "Angel" is the human name for "Cthulhu"

>>3056996
>Derp.

>Derp derp.

Why on earth would angels be "good"?

>>3057021
>Herpa-derp.

Angels

-are free-willed from the get-go
-don't have a conscience, only an overdeveloped predisposition for following orders
-can only remember/obey orders for so long without losing whatever good intentions they had

-free-willed angels are phenomenally selfish and short-sighted: if an angel's 'lifespan' is compared to the human lifespan and its degree of spitefulness and hatefulness, etc. to the human's, the human, almost without fail, comes off as STILL less selfish than the fallen angel

Or >>3056962

My personal favorite is this: imagine Lucifer as the most diligent and productive worker in the proverbial office.

Big promotion coming up soon, the boss is going to choose a sucessor.

The boss chooses his son, a lazy, bratty, spoiled child who's never worked a day in his life and complains about how hard he has it.

Is it any wonder?

>>3057015
Touche.

Oh, no wait.

>Derp

Strictu sensu, the angel ARE God in the same sense that everything is God and that's why magic works: you modify a little piece of God's name and alter reality.

I've never used angels in a game (I usually banned divine spellcasting in DnD) because I didn't fit with most of my godless worlds but if I decide to use them they would be familiar but -OH GOD SO WRONG (like burning wheels with many eyes or an animal with infinite heads one inside another) because the angel would try -and fail- to assume a guise familiar to a human

>>3057026
>> Hurr

>>3057042
If the angels are God then how come part of them went renegade? Also: wasn't this due to part of them being given free will or am I completely off course here.

>>3057009
Then, if you don't mind me asking...why the fuck did Christianity even take off?
I mean, if you are still going to hell because of what race you are, why shouldn't you just start to piss off god in any way you can?

The worst he can do is send you to hell, which you are going to anyway...

>>3057009

The jews weren't following the rules, Mr. Big got fed up, so He (in the flesh, literally, that's why we have Jesus) came down and said "Okay, EVERYONE, not just the jews: if you follow these rules, you don't have to suffer eternal torment involving lots of razor blades and an ocean of lemon juice.."

>>3057074
Cognitive Dissonance.

>>This whole thread.

>>3057009

To be fair its a Japanese video game so its an alien religion to them. I just thought their take on it was prety interesting.

>>3057075
Israelites were retconned into believers by the Romans. That way, you could avoid damnation if you followed the Roman Catholic Church and you no longer had to actually be Hebrew.

>>3057075
'Cause Jesus came and said, no need to do the old jewy thing, in fact none of you ever had any idea of what's right or wrong anyway so just place your trust in me and don't do those ten things god told you not to do before and things should be alright, LOL

>>3057106
And no one else thought about this through the ages?
No one tried to justify worshiping someone that is probably going to make your end and what comes after very unpleasant?

>>3057115
It shouldn't have mattered even if they DID follow those rules.
They weren't jews as such, since to be one they had to be birthed by a jewish mother, if I get that religion right...
So there was ALSO no need to follow any laws in the jewish religion, since they were all STILL going to suffer, in one way or the other.

>>3056996

I piss over religious notions all the time. The mere act of treating angels as fantasy creatures- fit for fairytales and D&D games rather than genuine reverence- pisses all over anyone who really believes in them.
This is fantasy gaming. This is what we do.

Also, "man" is usually taken to mean "human" by modern Biblical scholars (strictly speaking, only males are created in the image of God, yes. Strictly speaking, only males have souls as well, only males are punished for homosexuality, etc).

Also, males only need to consume more air and more food because they are larger, which an angel wouldn't need to be.

Your notion that more utilitarian is more beautiful isn't "objective", it's retarded. An angel doesn't need hairy arms or broad shoulders any more than it needs boobs or hips: both of those are biological adaptations and any assertion that one is more "beautiful" than the other is purely subjective, chauvenistic drivel.

An angel free to pick its own shape would choose whatever had the best impact on those viewing it, either male or female. An angel made in the image of God (just like man) would look basically like man (i.e, mankind), be it male or female. An angel sculpted to utilitarian purpose in a humanoid shape might be long haired and beardless, but more likely bald and hairless, with a slender and wiry body designed for flight, and a face of indistinguishable sex.

The schools of modernized/folk Christianity which depict angels as beautiful women ARE real religions, and are quite a bit older than the feminist movement, not that that matters because you end your post admitting that this is all fantasy and angels aren't real and nothing you've said about the "authenticity" of manly angels counts for shit.

tl;dr: Derp.

I always thought that Demons would be directly equal to Angels in power and glory, after all, they use to BE Angels themselves.

The only thing is, whilst Angels work unendingly for the will of good, Demons work unendling for the will of evil in order to keep the universe in balance.

Lucifer himself could only be directly challanged in power by God, and perhaps, they both have a silent understanding with one another that Lucifer HAD to fall in order for God's work to be done.

Lucifer didn't turn evil, God told him he had to for God's master plan to come together.

>>3057126
Honestly, the Romans took their existing law and placed it in a new framework. They already based it off of secular philosophy, and the new religion worked better than the old one because they could just replace Logos with The One True God. There wasn't such a huge shift in lifestyle outside of religion. And as for "did nobody else notice this was going on?" Remember that the Gospel was preached by rote, and questioning by the lay people wasn't just discouraged and punished, it was impossible due to the language barrier. The vast majority of Christians have never really been biblical scholars, and only relatively recently do they even know the words that are being preached to them.

Did the higher eschelons of the Church willfully perpetrate this? I think so, but that's not really answerable as far as I can tell.

Angels are metaphysical beings, so why not have the horror/shock/beauty come from their moral state being visible to human eyes? You look at the angel and can see how good it is, how uncompromised, and in your heart of hearts you KNOW that you could never match up to the standards that it lives by.

>>3057126
>>3057126

Well, sure, no one thought about it at all and no one has ever managed to answer the oh-so profound and original question that you present.

I mean, ignoring 1500 years of Catholic saints scholars and philosophers none of whose names you would even recognize, that is.

Fucking neophyte.

>>3057075
You're acting like the preexisting kingdoms in the land of Canaan just let themselves get run over when the Israelites finished wandering. Maybe you should think again.

There's a webcomic, Thunderstruck, which has an interesting approach: An on-earth organization called The Vigil, led by avatars of angels. They're well-equipped, professional monster hunters with shades of Knights Templar, seeing as their duty to keep things in good shape on earth until God (hopefully) returns. At a glance they're the closest thing to a good guy organization, but thanks to plenty of shades of grey they've actually been the protagonists' biggest enemies as of late.

Also, there's this scene, which throws some interesting light on the comic's version of the whole heaven-hell setup. (To give some context, the girl who speaks the last line can intuitively tell when people are lying to her, even when dealing with extremely supernatural beings)

>>3056679
I figured it was more that the angels were beyond our comprehension so they took on a beautiful physical form that we could understand, and naturally their beauty would be unmatched but not deadly.

>>3057208
Maybe angels would look unremarkable in a photograph, but in person they're incredibly wondrous to behold because of some natural, instinctive response. Demons, by the same token, could be horribly repulsive- your board converses with a CEO every day via conference call with no adverse effects, but one day he shows up in person and you're suddenly pissing yourself with fear.

I really like Pullman's conception of angels: divine, extradimensional pieces of living "divine architecture." Their true forms are perceived by mortals, and their apparent appearance comes only from the projection of human viewer's own minds. And even though they possess a vast intelligence and power, they are ultimately nothing more than immaterial, fragile constructions of pure thought, and are envious of the strength and robustness of "real" living creatures.

>>3057292
I'd go the opposite route. Think of The Fifth Element. A character speaks OVER THE PHONE with the embodiment of evil and even that is enough to make him start bleeding from the head.

>>3057318
Overrated series is overrated.

>Any ideas of your own /tg/?

Don't blink.

>>3057340
Butthurt Christfag detected.

>>3057340

Off topic faggot is off topic. Were not discussing the merit of the series as a whole, merely a specific set of the ideas discussed with it. You may have a personal vendetta against all that is popular, but it isn't the time to mention it. Faggot.

>>3056897
Woah

well then what would be
<< his stats

>>3057292

Has a certian authenticity to it.

God is All in Perfection. Angels are fragments of God, part Perfection, part Imperfection. Demons are Angels who have sacrificed Perfection for Corruption. Man is Imperfection.

>>3057342
moi? okay fine. you people should try looking into gnostic mythology for angel ideas. i for one sponser up to /tg/ the ideas of either manicheanism, with angels as the divine counterparts to ourselves (beings of pure unreality, as opposed to the evil reality we are composed of) or the eternally shining aeons, who flow from the One in one demiurgic faith (the One is analogous to God)

Okay, what about this:
First, God. The only things about him/she/it/other that can be directly known are these: God is perfect, and loves everything more profoundly than anyone can possibly understand. Some people find this comforting, and believe that it means that God is going to protect them from disease, strike down their enemies, ets. But they don't realize that God loves those enemies, those bacteria and viruses, those earthquakes and tornadoes just as much as he/she/it/other loves those who worship him/her/it/other.

>>3057614
This is correct, and much of why God is non-intrusive.

Erm.. HOW does this belong in a board about traditional games? In short, DESU!

DESU! This does not belong here.

Whoops, didnt realize i posted the first time.

>>3057652
CAMPAIGN IDEAS

>>3057614
Now, Angels:
Angels are the physical embodiment of one of God's thoughts. One would never be able to count how many of them there are, because new ones are always coming into existence.
The core of an Angel's personality is the thought that spawned it, with everything else about the Angel rooted in that, from it's appearance to how it can interact with humans. This leads to such varied Angels as Michael, Angel of Divine Justice, Gabriel, Angel of Divine Messages, and Bing, Angel of the best way to eat an oreo.

Now, if an Angel is the embodiment of one of God's thoughts, how does one of them rebel? Why did Satan, Lucifer, Beezlebub, whatever, fall?
Simple: they come from God's doubts. Should he/she/it/other have made the universe(s)? Should he/she/it/other have given souls to humans, and theoretically all thinking entities? Should he/she/it/other have ___?

>>3055693

>>3056914

I have a really huge crush on tilda swinton even though shes pretty goddamn fugly and has webbed feet... i would lick her webbed feet and stick my dick in her fug till god himself has to come and smite me

>>3057329
Also works. I just like the idea of an ostensibly normal flesh-and-blood being whose supernatural nature instead manifests in the world's reactions to it.

>>3057614
There's also the idea that instead of creating a static, perfect world God lets man exercise free will. He gives us rope and instructions on how to build a bridge to safety, but won't stop us from using it to hang someone instead.

Not all angels are handsome blond males with dove wings.

Seraphim: "It is said that such a bright light emanates from them that nothing, not even other divine beings, can look upon them. It is also said that there are four of them surrounding God's throne, where they burn eternally from love and zeal for God. The Seraphim have six wings; two covering their faces, two covering their feet, and two with which they fly."

Cherubim: "They have four faces: one of each a man, an ox, a lion, and an eagle. The ox-face is considered the "true face", as later on in Ezekiel the ox's face is called a cherub's face (Chapter 10). They have four conjoined wings covered with eyes, and they have ox's feet."

Ophanim: "hey appear as a beryl-coloured wheel-within-a-wheel, their rims covered with hundreds of eyes."

>>3056848
>Of course, if we keep following this train of thought we should probably find that angels shouldn't mirror humans in any way, shape or form.
>Except, they do, because mythology says that they do.

Mythology doesn't say that Abrahamaic angels look like people by default. It says angels look like burning columns of flame miles high, clouds of darkness covering the land, lions covered in thousands of eyes, singing burning chairs that God sits on (Thrones), all that wonderful insane acid-trip-gone-horribly-wrong stuff. Mythology also says they can decide to look like people, and if they do that they'd do it for whatever has the effect they're looking for, which will depend on the individual they're appearing to. Some people are more likely to trust masculine figures, some people are more likely to trust feminine ones, etc.

>>3058263
That sounds fucked up

>>3056053

So angels are the white blood cells of creation, and the fallen are a cancer. That's actually probably the best and coolest interpretation I've ever heard.

Also would fit nicely with the whole "false gods are fallen angels" idea: they have become consumed with their interest in or connection to a portfolio, and remain mercurial and strange and ravishing.

Honestly, I don't see why no one has brought in the other half of Abrahamic lore; the Muslim system is beautiful and has much more to choose from, with the various races of djinni and devils and ifrit, with the added bonus of the coolest Lucifer/Samael/Iblis ever. Satan as the ultimate lover of God; cast out for not bowing to Adam and not accepting that anything other than God gets free will. Bonus points for Christopher Walken.

Pic relevant.

>>3057753

Or they come from God's self love or loneliness. The Muslim Satan loved God so much that it couldn't bow to anything else. In the Sandman spinoff Lucifer, Samael's purpose is to be a being capable of disagreeing with God, troubleshooting creation by being the quintessential avocatus diaboli. In a way that makes more sense. Why create something to bow and scrape, what fun is a perfectly ordered universe? Why can't God just want someone to talk to as an equal? Hence free will, but apparently the experiment failed with Lucifer.

Or, perhaps angels, as incarnations of particular aspects of God (interpret the names, here, Mr. Dee, and refer to your Lesser Key of Solomon) are too intense by default and are doomed to fail in a moderated system. Falling is just what happens when they perform their intended purposes too well.

>>3056907

Berashith would like to have a talk with you.

For creepy, try John Keel's Ultraterrestrials.
For sheer WTF, read through the Book of Enoch.
Fun fact, an angelic insult is "Man born of woman and white drop."

Of course you could always dig up an Arbatel, and talk to them yourself. Two days sitting in a circle is a small price.

There's a short story, I think by Neil Gaiman, in which an angel tells a mortal the story of Heaven during the creation, and about how he is created to solve an apparent murder in Heaven and al the events that occur as a result, which touches on the fall of Lucifer in a rather cool and interesting way

>>3059758

moaaaaaaar/sauuuuuuuce?

I normally play Angels as really arrogant, considering mortals beneath them.

>>3059809

Sounds like something he would write, yeah. Anybody know for sure what story this is?

>>3055707
>>Like, there's one that's supposed to be two wheels connected with a bunch of eyes all over it

Ezekiel's Wheel, so badass Kane named the Nod stealth tank after it.

A bit off topic, but my dad swears up and down that the passage is describing a fighter jet. A bit odd of a theory, but when you read it it kind of makes sense:

Ezek. 1:10; "As for the likeness of their faces, each had the face of a man; each of the four had the face of a lion on the right side, each of the four had the face of an ox on the left side, and each of the four had the face of an eagle."

My dad equates this with helmet decals worn by most fighter pilots - man's face in front, animal faces to side/rear, etc.

1:13; "As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, like the appearance of torches going back and forth among the living creatures. The fire was bright, and out of the fire went lightning."

Dogfighting, missile launches, etc.

1:22; "The likeness of the firmament above the heads of the living creatures was like the color of an awesome crystal, stretched out over their heads."

Glass canopy.

1:24; "When they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of many waters, like the voice of the Almighty, a tumult like the noise of an army; and when they stood still, they let down their wings."

Jet engines, and some aircraft fold up their wings for easier storage after landing (especially navy planes).

It kind of makes sense too...

>>3061086

We need to do a setting based on that. For some reason, it also reminds me of Macross...

>>3061115
Mecha combat Jews? Do go on...

>>3055707
> one with more wings than you could possibly count in a lifetime
Sup, Prometheus Zeus.

>>3061128

Herp Derp...

Rewatching Macross Zero for "Inspiration". Back in a few hours.

>>3061086
>>3061115
>>3061128
Say that the mad scientist designing the "ultimate mecha" is also a devout christian of the fire-and-brimstone type. But, you know, still deranged even from the perspective of a normal fire-and-brimstone type believer.

I believe in the bible somewhere they are described as being 15 or 16 feet tall.

Michael (was it michael?) destroyed an army of 180,000 men.

Another ambiguous angel annihilated the assyrian kings army (assyria=angry violent men)

and on the subject of the fight between the angel and the man, 'twas a wrestling match, and it was even until the angels touched the mans hip and crippled him (touched, not hit).

Angels are capable of independant thought, however they are made pure. That's why Lucifer was able to take 1/3 of the angels with him.

So, their skin is like bronze, they are about 15 feet tall, can destroy armies like a fat man destroys food in a buffet, and glow white with purity.

Ass kickery like you've never seen.