TELL ME MORE

... I kinda wish OP was my teacher in 3rd grade.

To start, I am running out of dice. Now, I had a lot of dice before. We're talking 3+ lbs of bulk dice bought over the years. With every child having their own set, and dice being lost constantly, I'm down to what seems to be all the ugliest, strangest dice. I didn't even know I had d7s.

However, I'm fine with this, because the reason I'm losing dice is because the children are taking them home to play D&D. A few students surprised me on Monday by bringing in their own Player's Handbooks. If this was actually a little more 'legitimate', I'd be proud as a teacher that my students are practically assigning themselves homework. So, despite being left with brown dice with purple numbers and the rest of the mutants of the dice community, I'm letting them replace as many dice as they need.

I think you have something here. If you continue your efforts, D&D could eventually be put in a general curriculum!

>>3427015
Have you had any trouble with kids swallowing (or trying to swallow) dice?

I can't tell if you're a god among men, or a terrible human being.

The students are currently running a module I downloaded and adjusted for them, and two of the five groups managed to wrap things up today. The other three should be able to finish with one more day, so next Friday will be the DMs getting a chance to run their own adventures. I talked to them about their plans, and it seems like I will be helping them prepare over next week so they'll be ready. The DM who wanted to just kill all his players actually seems to have a lot of good ideas, including that the goal of the adventure is to save a baby dragon, which will then join the party as a pet.


Some time ago I think I mentioned there was a girl playing an elven cleric who happens to be a princess. She's really managed to direct the flow of the game she's in, with her practically infectious seriousness. The other players really seem to respect her role as "leader" (though I made sure to explain that the 4th edition term isn't the same as the dictionary one), and that group completed the premade module without a hitch.

On the exact opposite side, we have the Breakstone brothers, who've changed their last name to Bloodstone. These two boys wanted to play dwarven brothers at first, but now they've asked if they could change their characters from dwarves to a githyanki and a minotaur, but still be brothers.

ITT Wizards of the Coast display a brilliant new marketing strategy.

Now, this may sound inane, but their explanation was perfect. One wanted to play a githyanki because he wanted to be able to throw the one who wanted to play the minotaur into people. Their DM, the boy with the baby dragon idea, finally consented to polymorph them (by my suggestion), and with a true stroke of brilliance, said that the minotaur could use his goring charge ability when he's thrown.

Since they had taken up a good deal of Thursday's play time with this exchange, I'm not sure if these three are geniuses or simply trying to be disruptive. But, the other two in the group don't seem to mind, and since they think a githyanki-tossed minotaur is awesome, I mostly didn't interfere.

There were a few other conflicts within the groups that needed my attention. For the most part, it seems that the DMs have a firm grasp of how to control the players, probably because they're acting with the additional authority granted by an adult. Of course, the players have figured out how to control the DM as well, and I'm being constantly called to settle arguments between a player and the DM. For the most part, I try to side with the DM, since they might be trying to run the game a certain way, but they managed to make their fair share of mistakes.

>>3426987
goddamn, that pic is adorable
I so hate myself for saying this, though

Reminds me of a local youth group program near where I live. The guy running it dropped by the game store (where I was painting models at the time) and the store owner gave him a couple large boxes full of cards for the group.

Surely you must have some kids who are like NO SCREW THIS I DUN WANNA PLAY.

There's one instance in particular that stands out, because one boy was on the verge of tears because his character had been killed. I asked how the character had died, and apparently the DM had had a monster attack the character after he had fallen unconscious.

I tried to settle this pretty easily, by having all the groups take a look at page 40 of the DM's guide, where it simply says that monsters don't hit people after they've fallen. I explained that it was because that a monster wouldn't think that a person who's fallen is a threat anymore, and would rather fight the people still standing.

The DM argued that the player could just get healed the next round, so it would be smarter to finish him off.

...

...

I had an uncertain moment. I knew it would best to just explain it through the metagame idea of it being bad to kill players, but it seemed more like an excuse than a reason. Also, I don't think they're ready to understand the idea of the metagame. I then just told him that the monster would rather attack the healer to try to stop them from healing than to attack the person who can't help himself. I waited for him to point out that it was several times easier just finishing off the downed opponent than taking out the healing ally, but either through oversight or sudden understanding of the metagame, he just took back the attack, and the game continued with the downed player being healed the next round.

All in all, I'm glad that the children seem to be having fun, and despite the years this is taking off my life, I'm also having a pretty fun time.

>>3427070
This kid is either sadistic or doesn't grasp the idea of role playing.

>>3426987
>4.0 D&D

Man, this is more exciting than when I ran D&D for kids. Probably because they'd played before and it was a group, not a class.

>>3427082
Did... you just age for 4E?

>>3427082
They're 8 year olds... Really? Really? Do you really think they'd grasp all of the concepts in 3.5?

You should have set up camera/tape recorders...

But this is awesome, I wish I would have had neckbeard teachers like you

Somebody already archive this?

>>3427070

>>3427094
I'd really try to pull out the "This proves that 4th edition is for children", but...that would utterly destroy this amazing thread.

>>3427027
I hope that's not how my dice are disappearing. I haven't seen anyone put one in their mouths, and I'm pretty sure that they use beads and other small things in art class, so I don't think it will be a problem. I might mention to the class not try eating them just to be sure though.

>>3427032
Terrible people can do good things every once in awhile.

>>3427064
>>3427039
I should talk to my local game store, and see if I can set up some sort of discount or something. For educational purposes, of course.

>>3427077
He was just trying to think like the monster would. Not something he should be faulted for.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/3392221/
The first thread.

>>3427068
Yeah, it seems kind of unbelievable how this has gone off without a hitch.

I bought my ten-year old little brother a players handbook for his birthday, since he was always asking me about DnD. But... he still seems to like the book better for a picture, and can't make a character without my direct supervision.

How did OP manage to get ~20 kids to play DnD without any disruptive problems?

>>3427198
Imagine yourself as an eight year old. Your teacher tells you that he doesn't give a fuck about history, he wants everyone to play a game during class. A game where they get to be whatever they want and get to kill monsters and save people and roll dice.

He then tells you that you'll get an automatic F if you make a CG drow ranger.

Damn right you're going to roll up a dwarven fighter named Axebeard McBeardaxe.

>>3427198
Who said there weren't hitches?

>>3427198
Probably the fact that they are doing this INSTEAD OF DOING REGULAR CLASS STUFF helps.

>>3427075
Best way to put it for them to figure out is to say "You know how on those action cartoons and the bad guy has them knocked down but instead gloats and gets greedy, giving the heroes a chance to get free? It's like that. Unconscious people are no fun to attack."

>>3427161
You might want to consider buying that Chessex "Pound of dice" package.

>>3427272
I had already bought 2. If I get a chance to do this again next year and other years, I'll probably end up buying
a few more pounds.

>>3427224

I am so Kane and Holt gay for you right now

>>3427145
Seriously though, where do you live that this hasn't devolved into a parental shitstorm by now? Can I come live with you? It'd just be until I got a job and could get a place of my own...I promise to leave all my books and minis and shit in storage!

kick ass, op. kick ass.

I am stealing this strategy should I ever teach.

Economics class? Cyberpunk 2020, everybody roll up corporate characters! Solos, netrunners, fixers and corporates especially!

I salute ye.

OP, I was present for your first thread, and to see that it is still going strong and well makes an old neckbeard's calloused heart feel a bit lighter.
Big boss salute to you.

>>3426987

Now to introduce them to supplemental material

OP I can't help but think this will end with you being chased by an angry mob acusing you of trying to corrupt their children.

>>3427823
We're not in the 80s any more, thankfully.

>>3427823
What do you think this is, the 80s?

>>3427845
>>3427849
80smind.

wow OP, you should make a blog about your experiences. this is pretty fascinating (not being sarcastic). playing D&D with a bunch of kids must be pretty fucking cool at points, kids come up with some crazy shit.

>>3427845
>>3427849
Laugh now. THe Christan parents organisation may be focusing their efforts on their war against TV and animu, but at any time they might gaze upon the dark wonder that is D&D, and then OP is fucked.

>>3427902
War. War never changes.

Is there a compilation of all the threads so far?

>>3427070

I knew even with kids this couldn't last long before faggotry reared it's ugly head.

>>3427902
It already happened.

In the 80s.

I love this thread! catlovethread.jpg

>>3427949
>History can never repeat itself. Ever.

>>3427902

Been there, done that. They've bitched about basically everything by now. Especially D&D (D&D encourages satanism and such). Here is a short list of things they've tried to fuck over for no good damn reason:

- D&D (Satanism)
- Animu/Manga (Damn yellow bastards)
- Comics (Makes kids think they can fly and jump off buildings)
- Violent Video games (causes kids to go all kip kinkle on your ass)
- Non-violent video games (because tetris is the devil)
- Books that aren't the bible
- Bibles that aren't their particular version
- The color red (causes sinful thoughts)
- Pickles (devil invented pickles)
- Angle Cake (But, ironically, not devil's food cake)
- Devil's Food Cake (Because damn hippies wouldn't share)
- The letter Y (a very homosexual letter)

>>3427980
It's cyclic. Eventually the'll be back to D&D.

>>3427980
>The letter Y
Now you're just making things up.

>>3427902
90% of the parents in this generation aren't even aware of what their kids are doing in school. even if they did find out or care about what the kids are doing in class, it's not like kids learn shit in united states public schools anyway, so there's nothing lost really. and if you're the type that thinks stuff like harry potter and D&D is going to make your child a satan-loving sodomite, then you probably have your kid in a charter school or private christian school anyway.

>>3427980
>The letter Y (a very homosexual letter)

Ohhh, be nice.

>>3427953

>>3428025

Thank you kind anon.

Manners are always appropriate.

>- Angle Cake (But, ironically, not devil's food cake)
>- Devil's Food Cake (Because damn hippies wouldn't share)
Wait, what?

>>3428135
It's a joke. Laugh now.

I remember you posting about a week back, OP. Glad to see an update.

Know that you never need to feel lonely, because I can speak for most of /tg/ when I say that I love you.

you sir, are a true smar/tg/uy. I hope the children's neckbeards grow out well. One suggestion though...
>>However, none of the other teachers have played D&D

Try fixing that, maybe? prep a "less fantasy more real" exhibition game to point out the educational benefits (math, creative writting, social skills, yada yada yada) so you have something to back you up in case things ever go south with one of the parents or something

>>3428171
Ah...hahaha... ha?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU8-e-C4Uy0

>>3427917

>>3428253
IT JUST STRUCK ME. A campaign where a bunch of the important NPCs are HISTORICAL FIGURES. IE An epic rivalry between Sorcerer Nicola Tesla and Wizard Thomas Edison.

>>3428472
HIGH TECH SORCERY, I SAY!

>>3428472
Which gives them an excuse to learn Spirit of the Century.

>>3428472
needs more steampunk

>>3428472
/tg/

We reject your history and replace it with our own.

>>3428559

>>3428472
I'm so running a Mage game with this premise. It would fit so well.

>>3428472

Actually, the classes would be the other way around. Tesla would have had HORRIBLE charisma due to a combination of OCD, Strange phobias, and a general lack of business sense. He did, however, invent things decades ahead of their time. Edison was a two-bit hack inventor who could sell refrigerators to Eskimos.

>>3428588
re: war of currents

>>3426987
>or more honestly just to let them have fun.

Sir, you are doing it wrong! Children, even in 3rd grade should be learning, instead of having fun! You might ask me why, and the answer is really fucking simple. There are various tersts and entrance exams ahead of them and every little bit of knowledge ïs going to help them pass these. And they aren't going to learn something by having fun, because learning is by nature boring drudgery.

STOP PLAYING AND START TEACHING!

>>3428472
H.P. Lovecraft goes insane in his own games.

>>3428634

>>3428634
So little is expected of kids these days that it probably doesn't matter one way or another, and even if he did want to try to teach them popular culture these days tells kids that anyone in any sort of position of authority is somehow worthy of their ire.

tl;dr fuck children, fuck the future, and fuck you

>>3427161 I might mention to the class not try eating them just to be sure though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAQHRuPT8SU

>>3428659

I admit it's probalby pointless, because he's not going to stop it anyway, but after telling him what I think about his teaching method, I feel kinda better...

And still there is very little possibility, that he realises, that he really is doing it wrong.

>>3428676
[spoiler]He was being ironic.[/spoiler]

>>3428676
>So little is expected of kids these days that it probably doesn't matter one way or another
You're a retard. Kids have more homework than they've ever had.

>>3428690
Wait, you're NOT being ironic?

Wow, man. Wow.

I must say, D&D Teacher, you are awesome. I saw your first thread and fully expected a retard parent to cause a shitstorm. The nutty anti-D&D crowd is still around. My best friend's wife is vehemently anti-D&D but oddly enough does seem to mind any other RPG, I guess she does not realize they are all basically the same thing.

>>3428694
Don't come crying to me just because your teacher gave you homework

>>3428719
>herp a derp
You're a retard.

I kinda object to the OP's idea. I mean, honestly, awesome games times is not what school is for. I would hope the kids were actually learning some math and english, you know?

Nothing particularly against you, OP, just... ugh. Is there honestly not *anything* you could be teaching them with this time?

...read the OP's post in more detail, math skills... hmm. arguable. well, tell us how it goes, eh?

>>3428773
They're learning creative thinking, storytelling, maybe a little practical logic (in terms of tactics)... cooperation...

All he really needs to do is set it in a historic time period he knows well, ancient Rome or something, and he's set.

>>3428773
They're learning not to pick on nerds when they grow up.

>>3428786
...op, FULL SPEED AHEAD

>>3428784
And then everyone in the class roles up a Rogue Senator and sneak-attack ganks Caesar.

>>3428784
>>3428796
Not Rome, Greece. And have them play Agon, not D&D.

i'm pretty sure this is fake:( but oh well. Nice idea.

>>3428784

I concur. This is why I'd suggest giving them a tweaked "historical" ruleset so they can apply the stuff they've been learning in history... and to possibly get the hagglers off your back.

>>3427052
>goddamn, that pic is adorable

Glad I'm not the only one to think that.

>>3428773
The job of a teacher isn't just to teach solid facts. They also need to promote an enjoyment of learning. A teacher only has so much time to teach a child which is why it's so important to encourage them to enjoy learning so that they'll be more likely to do it in the future.

By making learning enjoyable you decrease the liklihood of a child dropping out because they fucking hate school and increase the likelihood that a child will enter into higher education as well as permorming well there because the foundation has been set for the educational environment of a tertiary educational institution, that of self-directed learning.

>>3428820
>hagglers

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

>>3428773

If you'd read a bit more carefully, it's taking up social studies time as part of the medieval studies section; other things like math, science, and english still have their respective designated times and plans. It's not like this is ALL that they're doing in school.

Besides... just ONE of you try and say that you've never had a week or two in elementary school where your teacher just had the class bull shit the entire time for the sake of "learning," something. Now take that and throw back in 4/5ths of a regular school day into each of those days; that is what this man is doing.

On that note, elementary level social studies isn't going to make or break a carrier; even if one becomes a historian.

tl;dr quit your bitching and read more carefully.

>>3428837
Well, Professor Anonymous, do I need remind you on our school's policy?

>>3428843
Get the maths group to look over what mathematical stuff D&D can teach. Rolling one die gives even probability, more than one and you get a bell curve result etc.

Then they'll all turn into minmaxers.

>>3428851
>isn't going to make or break a carrier; even if one becomes a historian
There are so many things wrong here I don't know whether to shoot you or your English teachers.

>>3428694

...And in exchange, it's all about the exact same bit of stuff for a whole week, so they end up learning literally almost nothing.

I have a nine-year old sister. I read her homework. It's just every day the exact same stuff, until every two weeks they change chapter, and then it's about that other thing for two more weeks. I've even helped her fill out some that were eminently copy/paste from two days ago - I think my sister's time is better used in stuff other than copying sentences verbatim.

And you wonder why people don't learn anything? Hint: When you thing something is stupid and boring, you're not going to *learn* it, ever, or even care about it. Why do you think most people forget 75% of everything they learned in school after they're done with it? Everyone just memorizes to pass the exams, and after the exams are done it's not interesting because they hate it with the fury of a thousand suns.

This is a sad mentality, but it's what seems to be fashionable lately - work hard, not smart! You must devote hours upon hours to the same thing until you hate it! Efficiency means you're lazy, because you only work half the time as everyone else, even if you get the same results!

...excuse me, /tg/, but I must go rage now. FFFFFFFFFFF-

>>3428862
That is way too advanced for a bunch of third graders.

>>3428878
This is why I told the public system to fuck off and just took a bunch of exams to graduate. Self-study is the only real study.

>>3428885
sounds like a good way to get math TEACHERS on your side though. also, just dumb it down to simple fractions

>>3428773

>>...read the OP's post in more detail, math skills... hmm. arguable. well, tell us how it goes, eh?

This poster obviously hasn't gone to public schools in the last 5 decades. Seriously, here is the summary of what I learned in 12 years of school...
... and that's it.

>>3428878
>It's just every day the exact same stuff, until every two weeks they change chapter

Have you studied the psychology of learning and memorisation, sir? If you have, you will know that people forget the vast majority of what they learn soon after they learn. In order to learn something fully and retain it to a large degree, you need to learn over time and refresh what you've learned previously.

This is why sustained study is better and more preferable to cramming. The degree of information retention will be higher compared to non-sustained learning techniques.

That being said, your argument about shit being boring is well stated. Information retention is also greatly increased by engaging the learner. Getting them to learn something by actively doing something. For instance, learning maths or economic theorum via business games.

Unfortunately, the amount that a child is expected to learn takes more time than a teacher has available to teach. Which is why homework exists. Now, a teacher could tell their class that they needed to get their family to play fun learning games with them in order to maximise the effeciency of their learning retention. However, this assumes that every child in the class has a family that has the time or inclination to this. This, sadly, is not the case, and most teachers have experienced enough families to know this.

As such, children are given basic homework that they can do on their own. Most teachers would love it if a child's family supported their child's education by providing an environment for engaging, enjoyable learning at home. But they know it won't happen. Hell, they know they're lucky if most parents turn up to Parent/Teacher meetings.

Back when I met my stepfather for the first time, I found this fuckhuge bag of dice in his hoom. This thin was entirely full, about the size of my head.
"Jeez man, why do you have so many dice?" I asked him.
"Well, I get a new set every few months." he replied.
"And how long you been introduced to it?"
"Since fifth grade. Math class."

tl;dr
FUCK YEA YOU ARE AN AWESOME TEACHER.

>>3428975

Learning can never be entertaining, because that's how human brain works. If it's entertaining and enjoyble, you are going to forget it, because yopur brain is going to think, that it's unimportant, while if it's suffering for you, you are going to remember it for years.

Therefore, if kids are tormented by their teachers, they are going to learn and get great job, or get to university after they finish basic and hugh school, otherwise, they are going to be stupid and get shitty job when they leave school.

>>3429123
That, sir, is a fine example of complete bullshit.

>>3429123
Total bullshit.

e.g., Kids can memorize hundreds of pokemon names.

10/10 man
>>3rd grade class play D&D
>>split into 5 groups and play 4.0
>>D&D
>>4.0
>>10/10

>>3429178
I know the first 150 in order, and i was in middle school at the time and only played red/blue. Also, the pokerap. by heart. still.

>>3428975
>Have you studied the psychology of learning and memorisation, sir? [...]

I don't know psychology - I'm just a humble man studying to be a computer engineer. But I do know that, at least in my experience, *actually advancing* the stuff (particularly making it obvious how each thing relates to the rest. Relation memory is a great thing) and then quickly reviewing it every few weeks with a few exercises and allowing the pupils to do some questions has always been much more efficient for me than "two weeks of the same thing nonstop, and then forget about it until the exams", which seems to be the preferred method. Mostly because after the first three days after doing the same thing I wouldn't even bother doing the homework out of sheer boredom, anyway.

>[...] However, this assumes that every child in the class has a family that has the time or inclination to this. This, sadly, is not the case, and most teachers have experienced enough families to know this...

True that. Problem with parents is that anyone can be one - there isn't a license exam or anything. You just need to spawn a kid. Which means many idiots are parents.

After all, education should also be given at home, but so many people think it's only a matter of school... sigh. Yes, I can agree with you - many parents should seriously be smacked upside the head with a morningstar.

But anyway, I'm of the opinion that the OP is doing exactly what he should - he might not be teaching facts, but he's teaching cooperation, enhancing imagiation (and Gods know not many people want to allow kids to have imagination lately. But that's a rage for another time), and also forcing them to use basic math quickly in a friendly and fun atmosphere. Honestly, I think it's a great initiative. I remember what my old maths teacher used to say... "the ability to think a bit beyond of what you're given will be of more use to you than a thousand formulas"

>>3429123

That... is so unbelievably stupid I can't even begin to answer you properly. I still can recite you dinosaur facts from over a hundred species (with names so easy to remember as Ophistocoelicaudia - that's a sauropod, BTW), and almost every pokémon from both R/B and G/S by heart. With the learned attacks, in most cases.

I can't, however, remember even an eighth of the capitals I had to learn for fourth grade.

>>3429221
Oh, aye. I hadn't meant to imply that you need to block everything together and learn it over a two week period. I'd, mitakenly, thought you were complaining about the need to repeatedly revise learned work.

You're correct, though. Constantly doing the same work over a two week period without mixing it up a bit is pretty much just sustained cramming. Sure, kids can learn by doing it, but they won't enjoy it.

REVELATION: We can improve our kids' learning abilities by removing the old system and replacing it with a massive ongoing d&d campaign. Science used to create and receive magic items. Math to kill stuff better. English for interacting with NPCs, Fuck social studies, toss in some creative thinking puzzles and viola we have an awesome system. Instead of getting a grade you get xp if you don't get enough you don't level up and go to the next grade. As the grades advance the content becomes more difficult so that you have to finding answers for things like 2x+7 in order to find out your damage.

>>3429537 Something like /v/'s Brotopia / Bro Vegas / New Broleans experiments as practical social study.
Fixed. Learning how cunts in Washington get shit done? Out. Learning how to GET SHIT DONE YOURSELVES? In.

Say, teach, what are the characters like?

>>3429589
never read that. seriously though social studies is mostly useless and can be easily done away with. If we must keep it just have a handful of countries have real life governments.

This idea is badass. Don't let the naysayers say nay to you OP, D&D will do a lot for all the basic mathematical and critical thinking skills that you should be developing. Plus, if you encourage them to come up with their own campaigns, you'll cultivate a batch of decent storytellers (and possibly writers).

In short, complete win.

>>3429768

Besides all those, it's also making the kids socialize with folks they might not usually, and is probably going to make them more open to other's ideas and the idea of cooperative teamwork.

I'm no social studies teacher or anything, but do the kids still learn what they're expected to learn at 3rd grade social studies?

OP, you are doing excellent work, keep it up.

Are you going to consider introducing other systems and settings to teach things outside a medieval context, eventually? D&D itself is somewhat limiting in that regard.

I second the idea that you should write a blog detailing your methods and the results. You might inspire other teachers to emulate you.

Now to all the people who've spoken out in favour of repetitive study and work not being fun: Play *is* learning. It's how baby animals learn to be good hunters or avoid predators. Children usually play at the things they see adults doing, and for good reason.

It's true that reading a fact once won't make it sink in, and that copying out out a dozen times over the course of two weeks will give it a greater hold on the mind; but that hold is still going to be weak and won't last long beyond the date of the exam.

If you really want to learn you have to learn by doing. We retain knowledge when we use it. Use is not only a powerful reminder, but a proof to our subconscious that this information is useful and worthwhile.

School traditionally works against the natural learning mechanisms children are equipped with to deal with the world, forcing a dichotomy between learning and play. Projects like the OP's may one day lead us to more effective ways of teaching youngsters without turning childhood into drudgery.

>>3429537

This, this, this. A thousand, million, billion times this.

>>3431677 School traditionally works against the natural learning mechanisms children are equipped with to deal with the world, forcing a dichotomy between learning and play. Projects like the OP's may one day lead us to more effective ways of teaching youngsters without turning childhood into drudgery.

Also this.

>>3428874

Shoot the troll hidden in this thread, that would be your best bet.

There is no connection between D&D and the medieval ages though.

I think the overall issue of using a system is about the total learning experience. A system like DnD has lots and lots of addition and subtraction involved, and though the level it's at is only apporximatly a 1st grade level, the amount inside each character is enough to be challanging. If the OP effectivly uses Vygotsky's Zone of Proximal Development, he can further the higher math skills and the ability to juggle several mathematic concepts all at once in an activity. He is also using a different, less fighty focused games due to the lack of problem solving involved in a game like that. What I would be interested in is if you make a case study out of this, OP, since there is a lot of interesting material you have out there in the classroom. Try this next year with another batch, but this time take pictures, record notes, and make a curricular study out of it.

No seriously why are children playing D&D in class when they should learn about wisigoths and shit ?

>>3433028

They lack WIZARDS!

>>3428014
>and if you're the type that thinks stuff like harry potter and D&D is going to make your child a satan-loving sodomite, then you probably have your kid in a charter school or private christian school anyway.

Except that those types are too fucking stupid to make a buck so they can't afford charter/religious schools, so their kids plague the school system just like all the hispanic anchor-children do, and suddenly the system is fucking ruined for normal kids.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

>>3433028

Because wisigoths don't have Tregnark, Warlord of the North

>>3433056
>>3433081

So, please reassure me, people in this thread are only pretending it's a valuable learning experience, because they'd have wanted to play instead of learn, right ? They don't actually believe playing D&D has any academic or social benefit, do they ?

>>3433115

You wouldn't be learning much, if anything at all, about the real medieval period in third grade anyway.

"It was between this year and this year. European countries X and Y fought between these years. There was no electricity or toilets."

>>3433118
At the very least they practice basic math skills and teamwork. The DMs practice planning.

It's hard to relate it to the middle ages without heavily modifying the setting though.

>>3433118
see
>>3428851

>>3433118

It's more about math and teamwork skills than history, but as >>3433123 pointed out, they aren't missing anything.

>>3433144
>>3433133

Math sounds like a bullshit excuse but I'll endulge.

I'm not arguing that it will severely cripple them in their carreer or whatever. But if their first impression of the middle age is D&D, that's pretty terrible.

>>3433118

No, people are saying it's a valuable learning experience because games are actually pretty good for children's brains, and roleplaying or pretend games even more so. They also get to practice basic math, which is a plus. And they all do this in a space of class where they would have learned things they'd have forgotten by the time they were fifth-graders.

I fail to see the cons in this setup.

>>3433171
Who gives a shit about the middle ages anyway?
Seriously, there's no goddamn reason anybody needs to know anything about them.

>>3433171
He said 3 days of the week they do normal class, the last 2 they do D&D or somesuch.

>>3433171

Usually, their first impression of Medieval Ages comes in the form of cartoons, so any damage has already been done.

>>3433190

>>HERP DERP

>>3433173

There's basically two things I'll adress here : first, D&D has zero academic and social benefits really. Games can develop SOME qualities in a child, but it's pretty minor. So that point is complitely moot.

Secondly. You say they won't remember what they learned in elementary school ? There is no way in hell you can know that really. So... no.

>>3433204

Shouldn't class be about DISSIPATING such impressions instead of worsening them ?

>>3433118
Why WOULDN'T playing games with groups of people have a social benefit?

>>3433232
At first I was kidding about not needing to know about the middle ages, but increasingly I'm starting to wonder.
Seriously, what the hell IS the point of studying the middle ages? Nothing very important happened, and knowing about it isn't going to have any impact on your life, at all.

>>3433190
He who forgets the past is condemned to repeat it.

>>3433238

Because it doesn't. Doing something with other people has no inherent social benefit except that you learn basic interaction. And that's something they learn during the fucking recess, and outside school. It's really basic shit. You don't learn anything out of playing a roleplaying game.

>>3433255
You need more than basic interaction to play D&D. People have already brought up the word "teamwork" and it's true.

How retarded are you?

Tripfag shits on kids having fun in school, news at 11.

>>3433244

>>Nothing very important happened

Well at least you're proving you don't know anything about it. See, here's the thing : you can't use something you don't have. So things you don't have ? You never miss them.

It's like having a general understanding of politics, geopolitics, geography and shit. What impact does that have on you ? None, really. You can live happily without knowing shit about history.

>>3433254
Yeah, because we're real likely to cede all power to absolute monarch, start taking people as serfs and build fucking castles again.

>>3433265

How retarded must you be to not consider something as generic as "teamwork" in the context of a rpg basic social interaction ?

>>3433255

Sure you learn something. You learn about problem-solving and improvisation.

>>3433285
Too stupid to have the right to speak on the internet, at the very least. And considering our lax entrance requirements, that's pretty bad.

>>3433274
With the exception of the signing of the Magna Carta, nothing the happened in the middle ages has any real impact on today's world.
And yet, it's taught in schools whilst, say, the Rennaissance isn't it.

>>3433255

Today we are studying a fine specimen of Homo Solitarius. An increasingly common species related to the Homo Sapien. They are often characterized as a solitary breed (Unlike the more communal Homo Sapien) and tends to reject interaction with others of it's kind except when forced to out of necessity. Due to this particular behavior, scientists have often wondered how they ever manage to reproduce.

>>3433232

>There's basically two things I'll adress here : first, D&D has zero academic and social benefits really. Games can develop SOME qualities in a child, but it's pretty minor. So that point is complitely moot.

...minor. Okay, you and me will never see eye to eye, it seems. I personally think that playing is an extremely neccessary part of a childhood to build an adjusted adult. Those parents who make schedules for their childs with so much stuff, academies, and music learnings that the kids reach home exhausted and like 1 hour before bedtime, every weekday, make me rage like nothing else can.

>Secondly. You say they won't remember what they learned in elementary school ? There is no way in hell you can know that really. So... no.

Well, of course I can't prove it. You can't prove anything when it pertains to human beings' behaviour. I'm only talking from my exerience and that of everybody else I know - small sample, since it's barely forty people, but the percentage is so almost-unanimous I can't help but think I'm on to something...

>>3433351

Look I don't want to be agressive about it. I play a lot and I used to play a lot when I was a kid, and I like what it has done to me. But what I am saying is, a growing kid needs a little more than that, he needs facts. They can entertain themselves on their own, so why play in class. I'm not saying they should do nothing else but study, but if they don't study in class, where will they ?

>>3433334

Damn, look, just don't, okay ? Drop that point right now. I'm not even going to argue this one.

>>3433348

>>Due to this particular behavior, scientists have often wondered how they ever manage to reproduce.

Well, I'm not expert on the subject, but I think it's due to the fact that I use sources of social interaction other than games to know people and make them my friends. I think it's also due to the fact that I know techniques a little more advanced than "teamwork".

OP is a hero and should make his presence known in the wider world.

OH LOOK, A TRIPFAG IS QUEERING THIS WONDERFUL THREAD WITH HIS INCOHERENT AND UNFOUNDED OPINIONS

UNPRECEDENTED.

NANOMACHINE, I ASSUME YOUR NAME IS A REFERENCE TO THE SIZE OF YOUR PENIS. GO AND SIT IN THE FAG CORNER WITH PHOBONAUT.

>>3433399
You have to be one of the shittiest tripfags on /tg/, without a doubt.

That's the point where the trolls take over and I stop getting thought-out responses, isn't it ?

>>3433399
That you aren't willing to argue my point is clear... what I'm curious about is why.
My current theory is that you can't.

>>3433399
>facts

BECAUSE OH GOD WHERE WILL THEY LEARN TO COUNT?! OH WAIT, SHIT, THERE'S NUMBERS FUCKING EVERYWHERE.

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE ALPHABET!? OH GOD DAMMIT, THAT'S EVERYWHERE, TOO!

BUT BUT, IF THEY DON'T HAVE THEIR SPELLINGS! FUCK! 90% OF THE WORDS YOU LEARN IN SCHOOL ARE USELESS, CAN'T USE THAT ONE.

UH...

School isn't there to teach you facts. Your *job* will each you all the necessary facts in your life.

School is there to teach you how to learn, and how to interact in a social setting.

I admit I can't speak for D&D's virtues on the former, but it's certainly a part of the latter.

>>3433444
No, this is where I rage about shitheads like you trying to drag everything else down to your boring level. Just stop posting.

>>3433444
You're a tripfag taking 4chan seriously. Also, your name is remarkably similar to RedMachine. No, you shouldn't have ever gotten a serious response

D&D has nothing to do with medieval reenactment or history. It is sucky at modelling these. It is for HEROIC FANTASY.

If you want realism, use something like GURPS with none of the cinematic rules.

>>3433469
3.5 will teach you how to search 200 splatbooks for the one feat you want!

Is there an archive of these threads?

>>3433399
>Look I don't want to be agressive about it. I play a lot and I used to play a lot when I was a kid, and I like what it has done to me. But what I am saying is, a growing kid needs a little more than that, he needs facts.

Of course, they also need facts. If the only thing they were doing was play, I'd be against it too, and extremely so. But school is not only for hard, stone facts. Lose three/four hours a week for playing with the other kids, especially a game that actually spurs the kids' creativeness (important point, this. The current school system is so bad for the creative juices of its victims...)? Again, I fail to see the problem.

>They can entertain themselves on their own, so why play in class. I'm not saying they should do nothing else but study, but if they don't study in class, where will they?

Sadly, at least around here, in the thousand and one extracurricular stuff the parents enrol the kids in. As I said, I have a little sister, and I take her education very seriously, and what I see in her classmates makes me very, very sad.

Also, depends on the subject. I learned English from playing videogames and reading messageboards, myself - if I stuck to what English I was taught in school, I couldn't be here talking with you ;).

>>3433469

That's a pretty shitty arguement which says absolutely nothing at all and is wrong on all counts so I wouldn't even know where to begin.

>>3433449

It's basically because I know you're a pretty bad troll.

>>3433475

I'm not trying to drag anyone down, god forbid. I'm trying to assess wether or not you "let's play in class" people have merits, or are completely ful of shit. Try to guess which is the logical conclusion here.

>>3433477

And I didn't !

>>3426987

Sup OP.

Since you're a teacher, I hope that you're buying your rulebooks through a bookstore and saving the receipts. Because you're a teacher you can write them off your taxes as a business expense.

Just a reminder from your friendly neighborhood writefag.

>It's basically because I know you're a pretty bad troll.

He's trolling because he thinks the Renaissance is more relevant to our lives today than the middle ages?

OP, I had very few teachers like you when I was growing up. Not that I played D&D, but you're making learning fun. Those teachers that did, stuck with me, and I usually did better in their classes. Keep up the good work, and maybe this group of kids won't be the usual shitheads that public schools seem to turn out.

>>3433553
>shitty arguement which says absolutely nothing at all
>I have no counterarguments

>>3433506

>>Again, I fail to see the problem.

The problem is not with d&d itself, I'll play it all the fucking time with my kids. The problem is the place. Class is not the right place for this kind of activities. There are plenty of other places for that, and children play pretend with or without the context of d&d anyway.

>>3433566

Seriously? BRB becoming a teacher.

>>3433571

No, because he says the middle ages has no relevance at all.

>>3433592

Yeah, because there's SO MUCH MORE MEANINGFUL stuff they could be doing.

Have you ever, in your adult life, ever needed to know the 50 state capitals?

Have you *ever*, in your adult life, ever needed to know WHAT THE FUCK George Washington EVER DID?

Have you ever, in your adult life, ever needed MOST of the things they filled your time with in school?

Would those things have made you even half as successful as you are?

Facts don't mean shit in the world, just social skills and how quick you pick up the info you need to be good at your job.

>>3433597
Yeah -- oh assuming OP is in America, of course.

I had a professor talking about how to keep the most of your money despite taxes. He said that one of the benefits of teach was the relatively low tax rate and the ability to write off any book you buy ever. His premise was that if you're smart enough and take the time to read through things, you can find all the loopholes to make your life easier; most people don't and that's what the government and business bank on -- like banks that offer different interest rates, one IS better than another, but they offer two and make one seem deceptively better; they screw the people who don't take the time to work through the numbers.

He was my favorite teacher :,)

>>3433630

It's not like you need anything in life besides the skills directly relevant to your career, right ?

>>3433650

Actually, yeah.

Computer technicians, barring hobby-level interest, really couldn't give two flying fucks where "scion" holds its roots in language.

Mathematicians, with their love of all things numbered, are still totally distanced from Caligula's debaucheries.

If you really want to pick up facts that don't have anything to do with your job, school's secondary purpose: Teaching You How to Learn will help you do that.

Throwing 923094823409234 facts at you between the ages of 5 and 18 will not.

>>3433664

Yep, knowing how to learn and having a passion for learning trump everything else you might learn at school, except how to read.

Nanomachine is a faggot because he somehow cannot grasp this and thinks the sort of busywork that makes up 90% of a school career is really important.

>>3433664

Because you are defined by your career and your specialty as a human being, and you shouldn't care about anything other than what you are socially engineered for.

Ideal.

But my opinion may stem from the fact that I believe the duty of school should be to allow people that wouldn't naturally be directed toward academic knowledge get a taste of it so that it'll pick their interest and they'll have the opportunity to pursue intellectual enlightenment, not to produce a growing workforce easily exploitable.

ok, to clairify everyone saying play is bad in a classroom, I'm going to cite the NAEYC, the National Association of the Education of Young Children, the best way for children age 8 and under to learn is by play. You can look this up on their website, wikipedia, or do it one step better, call an elementary school and ask!

>>3433692

I'm sorry, I forgot that people are RETARDED and unable to discern what DOES make them happy from what DOESN'T.

"Hurr durr, this accounting shit sure does make me sad. I like horses. Oh well, back to accounting!"

If anyone *really* thinks that way, they deserve all the depression and stress their career choice gives them, and should probably slap some of their teachers for not engendering the urges of curiosity and exploration in their student.

>>3433664
You're an idiot. We don't all live in career bubbles where engineers only know how to work numbers and writers only know letters.

You need all the random bits of knowledge to function with the all the other people who don't have the same career as you. If engineers and doctors didn't know anything about each other's material the MRI machine would still be a pipe dream. Knowing a little bit about everything facilitates collaboration.

Not to mention the seemingly useless compound interest equations from middle school that Neverland so lovingly pointed out could actually save you money no matter what career you're in.

That and the seemingly useless History class would let people know that the ENTIRE nativity in the Bible was fucking bullshit. Every historical 'marker' in the bible that the bible correlates with the nativity don't actually coincide.

>>3433721

>>I'm sorry, I forgot that people are RETARDED and unable to discern what DOES make them happy from what DOESN'T.

Well see, if you had studied history more closely you'd know that this is true.

>>3433692
Problem: Cramming tl;dr down children's throats and making them memorize names doesn't really make them love learning.

OP's idea, while not perfect (D&D really doesn't have much to do with the middle ages) might make them not associate learning with boredom and drudgery that much, while also teaching a bit about unrelated things which you might or might not care about.

It's like those stupid book reviews. Thank god i liked to read before those started. Between a tendency to only give a choice of books i didn't like and forcing me to take a test about them they were quite counter productive.

>>3433734
Hurf Duf, you is wrong. We must live only in the now, because nothing that ever happened before this very moment matters at all.

Motherfuckers, 4e teaches social skills, teamwork, basic math (AND basic algebra, think 3[w] + strength mod as 3x + y). Fuck all y'all, I think this would be great for teaching.

>>3433725

Random bits of knowledge are *fine*.

I pick them up, *all* the goddamn time.

Because I *like* to learn.

Not because my teachers threw a billion and one facts at me and prayed some of them stuck, but because I actually went out and found me some learnin' books.

If all students could walk out of school with only one thing ever gained, I'd pray it was the same urge to learn everything of even remotest interest that I have.

So I'm going to ask. What *one* trait, skill or bit of knowledge would you want all the students in schools to walk out of their schools with?

>>3433746
Here's the problem, we need tests.

Universities don't want a grab-bag of kids; they want to be sure that the people they take at least have the potential to finish. The only way to properly gauge kids against one another? A fucking test for all of them that they all must take, a-la the SAT and ACT.

There is no other efficient way to do this. Welcome to reality.

>>3433746

See this is something I agree with. The methodology of today's school is in question, and I agree that it is too often dissociated with the actual children themselves.

D&D, though ? For real ? Let's be serious.

>>3433772
ONE?! fuck you, burn in hell.

1) Biology, that way we don't get all these fucking fake 'alternative medicines' that people waste their money on. That and we could effectively kill creationism. Seriously, that shit has to die. Not to mention the benefits of knowing how your god damned body works so you know why you're sick and how to not get sick again.

2) Math. The fundamental of everything.

3) English. I'm sorry if YOU don't care if you know how to spell or /grammar. The rest of the world needs you to be able to communicate in a uniform way so we're not all running around like barely cogent retards.

>>3433772

I want school to be able to unify all people intellectually, to make them understand why they are here and what they come from - and which tools are at their disposal. But above all I want school to give children the sense of purpose that allows them to understand what is a nation, what is the human race and why they can help improve it.

See, saying "hurf durf middle age means shit, anybody can pick up a book and learn something" is stupid. Are you completely ignoring the fact that there are social fractures within a population ? That a whole load of people in whatever nation don't even know the basics of history ?

It is school's duty to allow them to get a taste of it, by giving them the basics, by saying how it relates to them and why they should try to learn more, to understand.

I don't comprehend what problem you have with this fact.

>>3433800

Congratulations, you have students who know everything about biology and couldn't give a shit about what the moon is like.

Facts will only ever *be* facts, but the love of learning can and will spawn every great wonder humanity has in its future, and did spawn every wonder humanity has in its past.

>>3433775
I wasn't talking about those tests. I was talking about trying to get people to read by forcing them to read a shitty book and pass a test about it. Yeah i'm sure they'll love reading after this.

>>3433823
LoL because they would actually read without the axe at the end.

>>3433822

Then by the love of god please tell me how playing a shitty dungeon crawler such as D&D help them get that ?

>>3433822
facepalm.jpg

Look, retard, if you bothered to look at who >>3433800 linked to, you'd understand why the list is so short -- retard.

>>3433800
>>1) Biology, that way we don't get all these fucking fake 'alternative medicines' that people waste their money on. That and we could effectively kill creationism. Seriously, that shit has to die. Not to mention the benefits of knowing how your god damned body works so you know why you're sick and how to not get sick again.
Well, critical thinking/appraisal techniques would cover this. The problem is the world today is full of people who're good at bullshitting (admen, politicians, alt therapists) and no-one gets trained to evaluate the stuff thrown at them properly.

>>3433823
lol, were you ever a kid?

The only reason anyone actually studies is because they get an F if they don't.

>>3433838

Because they aren't hating every fucking second of school, and are learning not to hate every fucking second.

Whole semesters of grades can be ruined or improved by how a student feels about a class, what mood they have in school.

If nothing else, it's showing the children how to interact socially. If he scrambles the groups, it'll help with their "I'm stuck with a group of people I dislike/don't know/didn't pick, how do I respond?"

>>3433838

It is fun and interesting. People are vastly more likely to learn about things that can entertain them.

By associating the middle ages with a fun game (and not the "fun" fun that comes with educational resources) you can generate interest in learning.

Face it, most people don't want to learn for the sake of learning. Games can act as a motivation, or to at least give fond memories of learning.

>>3433864

So it has no function that anything relaxing besides D&D would have then. Thank you for clearing that up.

Also have you ever considered that some children will NOT LIKE D&D. Baffling I know.

You CAN'T make sure they'll love every minute of it. But you CAN avoid wasting their time with trivial bullshit.

>>3433838
Maybe they'll asociate learning and fun, but i admit straight D&D isn't quite the best for that.

Ideally one would design a more realistic setting (could be set in a real location in a specific year even) and the rules could be messed with to incorporate math concepts you want the kids to learn.

>>3433868

If they don't like to learn for the sake of learning they'll never learn anything outside of school. By associating learning to a shitty game (AND THAT IS WHAT MODERN SCHOOL IS DOING WITH GRADES BY THE WAY, AND I DON'T APPROVE OF IT) you assure that they will never do any effort to learn outside the context of this game.

>>3433816

This assumes most people, CHILDREN I might add, give a shit about learning stuff.

PROTIP: They don't.

>>3433854
I'm not talking about studying, i'm talking about forcing you to read books. The ones with stories and such. The ones most of the class selects based on length, while the few who already like to read select based on content.

Doing that so those who don't like to read start liking to read is RETARDED.

>>3433900

Well would you look at that, that's exactly what I said. Good job.

>>3433896

Hardly anyone wants to learn for the sake of learning. Knowledge is collected with a goal in mind, and for children, the primary goal is self gratification also known as fun.

Children just don't have the emotional maturity to look beyond what is immediately in front of them. Most "driven" students are actually doing it for parental approval, rather than to better themselves.

>>3433922

Yes and that's why school methodology should focus on THIS problem instead of going "lol it's a game with swords they'll love it".

Hate to interrupt this trollfest but I'd like to know where the archive of these threads are.

>>3433930

>problem

What problem? This is the way children work. Their minds simply do not have the development necessary to actually comprehend that learning X or Y is important, even if you tell them.

They're just doing it for self gratification. Always.

Nanomachine, I give you a solid 8/10.
Seemingly well though out points, fairly decent grammar, I almost think you might actually be serious.

>>3433942
Here:
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/3392221/

This is the second thread.

>>3433953

And that is a mentality with should be encouraged to help them grow. Failing that, they'll become manchilds that "don't care about the middle age because nothing interesting happened in it".

It is a problem in the sense that today's school is not adressing that, it's just putting children in some kind of armrace against themselves with grades. Which is futile.

>>3433964

And I give you 0/10, you're not even trying.

>>3433980
Your appraisal is correct, I am not trying to troll, but presenting my appraisal of your trolling attempt.

Sage because there's no point bumping this up to the top.

>There is no other efficient way to do this. Welcome to reality.

As a matter of fact there is another way: We can acknowledge instead that we *don't* need tests. Who universities choose to admit is their problem to solve; they can design any kind of entrance exam they please.

Other than that, what are the benefits of knowing if one child is better at something than another? There are some, such as helping someone who is struggling in a certain area, but it's not half as necessary as the previous poster suggests. It's not an inevitable fact of life.

The legendary management consultant W. Edwards Deming said that "The most important things cannot be measured." Now bear in mind that this man's job was maximising real life efficiency. He was not an idealist. If he was wrong, companies would go bankrupt.

One of his 'seven deadly diseases' of management was "Evaluation by performance, merit rating, or annual review of performance." In other words, grading of employees.

When you set targets, people work to the targets. When you set tests, teachers teach to the tests. In the UK the government is especially preoccupied with targets as a method of delivering improvements in public services; but it doesn't really work. You get people gaming the system, like the hospital which cut waiting lists by finding out when people were going on vacation and booking them in for operations then, so they'd have to cancel the operation and book again.

The test creates a kind of false idol that is mistaken for success.

>They're just doing it for self gratification. Always.

I don't know what sort of downs kid you were, but when I was little I was quite capable of planning ahead, saving money, etc.

In fact the most annoying thing about school was the they never told us the long-term goals of our education (mostly because there weren't any.)

I would have loved to have a diagram showing what we'll be studying next semester, next year, etc., and how it all ties together into an overall understanding of the world.

We were being spoon fed when we should have been learning how to feed ourselves.

Nanomachine is making me miss Jim Profit.

>>3433974
You still haven't told me why I'm wrong about the middle ages, by the way.

>>3434105

Welcome to being the exception. There are always a couple.

>>3434406

You didn't answer the question. Were you, in fact, that stupid when you were a child?

Did you never save up money for something you wanted later, for example? Did you never take pride in being good at something for its own sake?

>>3434546

>Did you never save up money for something you wanted later, for example?

That's still something that's right in front of you even if the the date of arrival is far off, and furthermore, it's for self gratification, helping my point.

>Did you never take pride in being good at something for its own sake?

I liked being the best because that got me praise and admiration. Self gratification. Without that, the activity had to be fun for me to care.

By the way, I wonder if you've even read up on the development of a child? Small children can't explain how they just added something up, and you expect them to comprehend the weight of academic responsibility?