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    217 KB Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)16:45 No.4670854  
    Help me, fa/tg/uys. For the life of me, I can't put together a 2000pt marine army that will beat a fully mechanised Ork list. To avoid disgracing myself even further, I need a highly beardy army specially tailored to finally beat the bastards.

    I will almost certainly be up against four battlewagons, two of which will have huge boyz mobs with a nob with power klaw, one of which will contain a load of burnas and a mek with a KFF and one of which will contain a handful of cheesy nobs. On top of that, there'll probably be a couple of trukks and a whole bunch of really annoying warbuggies with those rocket things.

    I've tried a tank-heavy army. Both my land raiders got pinned in and clobbered with claws on boarding planks. The predators and vindicators could only get shots at warbuggies, which acted as a screen for the first time and then sat right in front of all my lascannons, leaving me with no other targets even after I finally managed to wreck them -- by which time the klaws were on top of me. The one battlewagon I finally did manage to destroy (by drop-podding sternguards with meltas) just resulted in a huge mob being plonked within running distance of the objectives.

    At this point, I'd be happy even just with an army that won't have me wiped out by the end of turn five. My honour is at stake here, and if I have to go out and buy a shitload of minis, so be it. Help! Marines are not supposed to be so difficult!

    tl;dr: 2000pt marine army designed solely to kill mechanised orks please.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)16:55 No.4670955
    Take a half dozen rhinos and plonk them in a big line across the middle of the battlefield. Those battlewagons aren't nearly as scary if they can't get anywhere near your troops or the objectives.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)16:58 No.4670983
    inb4 metal boxes
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)17:00 No.4671005
    enjoy the deathrollers. Those rhinoes will be dead very fast
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)17:01 No.4671018
    I wish I could afford a half-dozen rhinos.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)17:02 No.4671030
    Don't use lascannons. Use meltas. Much better chance of vehicle destruction.

    I don't know how mehreens efficiently get meltas close enough to damage, but with Guard we use Valks and veterans. You've got Drop Pods; figure something out.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)17:02 No.4671035
    Death rollers can't be used against tanks in 5e. They only work for tank shock attacks, not ramming.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)17:03 No.4671045

    Deffrollas don't work on vehicles, only infantry.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)17:05 No.4671064
    The problem is this: meltas against the front of a battlewagon are risky, and you'll get death rollered to bits if you aren't extremely lucky in your rolling. Against the sides and rear they're effective, but with multiple battlewagons side by side but angled slightly and a screen of warbuggies, you can't get meltas to shoot at anything useful.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)17:07 No.4671099
    All meltaing does is gets you a twenty-strong boyz squad right on top of you, right next to an objective. Your typical speed freak player will zoom everything full speed across the board on the first turn and rely upon screens of buggies and a kustom force field to keep the battlewagons safe, and after the first turn they've advanced far enough that you have an endless horde all the way across your deployment zone.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)17:09 No.4671114
    How the hell is he using four Battlewagons in a non-Apocalypse game?

    The best way to stop mechanized Orks is to stall the vehicles out before they can get across the table using long-range firepower. As such, you can equip your previously mentioned Land-Raiders with enough lascannons to reliably kill one Wagon per turn, although shooting at front armor 14 is always a gamble.

    I propose Deep Striking Land Speeders with multi-meltas and shooting at rear armor. Or using Drop Pods and squads with meltas, so you can get in there on the first turn and kill the momentum of at least on vehicle.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)17:12 No.4671160
    3 Heavy Support and 1 HQ transport? They're only 90 points basic.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)17:16 No.4671201
    avoid land raiders as 250 points for 2 tl lascannons and a tl heavy bolter its doubfull they will win there points back and a smart opponent will ignore it

    get some devestator squads armed with missle launchers the idea being that if they make a dent in the buggy rush there able to perform double duty and take down the oncomming horde

    sniper scouts with a sergent tellion with camo cloaks

    consider taking a thunderfire artiellery gun to slow down the orcs by making dangerous terrain

    avoid vechiles when possible unless you really want something in particular maybe use a deepstriking dreadnought with a melta to take down the back of the battle waggons
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)17:17 No.4671210
    You can take a battlewagon as a transport for nobs mobs, of which you can have five (if you take two warbosses), and as heavy support. So theoretically you could have eight battlewagons in a single army.

    Points-wise, that'd be 720 for the battlewagons, 120 for two warbosses and 300 for the cheapest possible nobs, giving you plenty of room to soup things up.

    Hrm. That just gave me an idea.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)17:17 No.4671218
    You've got a single turn of shooting (against AV14) with those devastators before they get crushed by the big spiky rolly things. Good luck with that.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)17:18 No.4671224
    Yeah, I've been working out my Speed Freekz force lately and it's basically FUCK YEAH WAGONS and then some other shit to soak up the points. Going to convert them all out of Guard Vehicles, though, I think.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)17:18 No.4671229
    If you don't take vehicles, how do you avoid getting squashed by all those tanks?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)17:30 No.4671362

    A "Death or Glory" attack may be used by a unit who is under attack from a tank shock and has passed its morale test. (pg. 69)

    Vehicles are not effected by tank shocks (pg. 68)

    Walkers are vehicles (pg. 72)

    Walkers may make a "Death or Glory" attack if rammed by a tank (pg. 72)

    Ramming is a special type of tank shock move (pg. 69)

    >Death rollers can't be used against tanks in 5e. They only work for tank shock attacks, not ramming.

    Fuck you and the rest of the faggots over at warseer who still argue ramming is not considered tank shocking. Ive never seen so many stupid people in one place before. Evidence:

    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)17:37 No.4671436
    Fuck you and all the rest of those cheats who still claim you can use it against tanks, even after GW explicitly said you couldn't.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)17:44 No.4671514
    does your opponent run open topped wagons or closed top?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)17:44 No.4671525

    Man, I didn't even get past page 2 before RAEG.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)17:45 No.4671539
    No-one runs closed top wagons. 'Ard case has to be the worst upgrade in the game -- it goes way beyond "useless" and right into "highly harmful" territory.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)17:57 No.4671669
    Harmful? How is not having to take +1 to damage roles harmful?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)18:00 No.4671697

    >Fuck you and all the rest of those cheats who still claim you can use it against tanks, even after GW explicitly said you couldn't.

    Oh really, is that why its beenn addressed in the FAQ?

    to bad the rules are on my side and all you faggots have is claims of it not being what the developers had intended. Too bad your wrong there as well. Here is an interview from phil kelly, the author of the ork codex


    skip ahead to 47:00 and listen.

    "we tried to incoporate into the ork codex is the idea of vehicle to vehicle combat so the ork vehicle assualt the other vehicles with big klaws and death rollas."
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)18:01 No.4671717
    Imperial Guard: use some doctrines and heavy weapon platoon. You've got three slots there, lad, that's nine autocannons a slot, giving you 27 autocannons, NOT INCLUDING those you're going to put in your infantry platoons and command platoons.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)18:02 No.4671740

    because you cant assault from the wagon the turn it moves. For a battle wagon and looted wagons, its not a bad upgrade. On trukks you might want the enemy to recieve a +1 to the damage roll so you get to roll on the ramshackle table.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)18:03 No.4671747
    Open Topped lets Orks assault from the vehicles, rather than bundle out and get shot up for a turn or even assaulted. So it's harmful for Orks because it denies them a good furious charge.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)18:05 No.4671766

    hurr durr wat new codex
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)18:10 No.4671820

    you can assault from any vehicle unless the vehicle moved that turn.
    >> Stranger 05/26/09(Tue)18:13 No.4671837
    Ok, ok.... just so I'm clear what is being said, what is all this about tankshocks not ramming vehicles? I know I just got back into the game, but I did read the rule book twice and have common sense, so someone explain this concept to me.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)18:13 No.4671841
    Thats an extra turn, out of six. Wanna assault on turn 2 or halfway through the game?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)18:14 No.4671855
    I thought tank shocking vehicles = ramming
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)18:16 No.4671870
    3 Iron Clad Dreadnoughts w/ chain fists.

    6 Tactical Marines w/flamer & missile launcher.

    1 Assault Squad w/2 flamers

    1 Librarian with Vortex of Doom and Machine curse, epistolary and jump pack.

    Scatter your Tactical Squads around(putting them into 5 man combat squads). Run those ironclad dreadnoughts up into close combat with the Wagons.

    Fly around with the Assault squad with jump packs + librarian and eliminate any of the weakend boyz mobs that bailed out of tank, or support an assault by the dreadnoughts.
    >> Stranger 05/26/09(Tue)18:17 No.4671886
    I just check it. Ok, so tank shocking means I pick my speed, ramming means I go maximum speed (counts as a tank shock). So a standard tankshock is a cute little thing I can do (that can't touch vehicles), but when I want to be a man, I ram (which blows shit up with my deff rolla).
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)18:18 No.4671901
    All tanks can ram or tank shock reguardless of upgrades.
    Putting a Roller on a BW just gives you a better tank-shock, it doesnt add any bonus to a ram-move. But you can still ram.
    To allow a Trukk the tank-shock ability, you have to buy a re-inforced ram, but you CANNOT ram into other vehicles with it, as explained by the codex dev.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)18:21 No.4671927

    >Wanna assault on turn 2 or halfway through the game?

    being that I do own and play a speed freaks army, this is perfectly fine for me. Turn one assualts are a rare and freak occurance, unless my opponent is a dip shit. You can take the closed top upgrade. Its not worth it, but it isnt going to hamper your army if you learn how to play around it.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)18:30 No.4671995

    Sorry, I >>4671927 misunderstood you.

    I thought you were saying the best I could do was a turn two assualt (the norm for orks), you were actually implying i would be unable to do that if I used the closed top upgrade. Correct? If so this is simply not true.

    If you take advantage of your 12" deployment, move flat out 18", on turn two hop out 2", Move 6", waaagh! (lets say 3"), and assualt 6"

    you would be in assualt with models on your opponents table edge.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)18:31 No.4672009
    Massive Faggots here ITT.

    The kay to deal with multiple wagons is meltas or multimeltas. Move up quickly with multimelta speeders. Take alteast 3 squadrons of 2 speeders. BLOCK MOVEMENT WITH THEM. He can try to tankshot but you are a skimmer.

    Vindicators are a terrible here. What you want is 3 predators with autocannons and heavy bolters.


    Thanks for playing.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)18:34 No.4672034

    I forgot to explain.

    The geniusness of blocking movement with skimmers is when he tries to tankshock and fails his fucking BW just stands there. So if you put your speeder close enough the BW moves very little that turn.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)18:38 No.4672078
    And your speeder gets clobbered by the power klaw nob on the boarding plank.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)18:39 No.4672082

    Also. Orks can't defeat thundershield terminators. Combine them with vulcan.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)18:41 No.4672098
    > I dont play warhammer 40 000.

    Oh.. allright then.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)18:47 No.4672148

    Check up on the rules on boarding plank and how far fast skimmers can move.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)18:48 No.4672151
    I've found that one of the hardest SM armies to fight is one composed of nothing but tactical squads. Give every squad a meltagun, a lascannon, and spread them out in a battle line. As the vehicles get close, they'll be in range of several weapons that are very adept at taking down vehicles. If you have to diversify, an Assault squad with as many plasma pistols as you can as well as grenades can get around the ork flank and hit the side or rear armor of their vehicles. But with so many tactical squads all alike, you have no critical units you have to protect or use carefully. If all parts of your army are equal, he'll have a harder time prioritizing his targets. Maybe throw in some missile launchers to take out chunks of the mobs but still be able to strike vehicles efectively.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)18:49 No.4672157
    So you're going to be blocking a battlewagon by zooming around 13"+ every turn?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)18:49 No.4672166
    You've clearly never been on the receiving end of a deff rolla.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)18:52 No.4672181
    They just don't seem that threatening when you can hit them with five lascannons and two or three meltaguns in one shooting phase.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)18:54 No.4672204
    Take Vulkan as your HQ.

    Take 6 tac squads with melta guns and multi meltas in rhinos. Dont get out of the rhinos use them as weapon platforms. Also, give the sergents melta bombs in case you hit some walkers or happen to get close to a tank.

    Then put three dreadnoughts in Drop Pods with heavy flamers, multie-meltas and extra armor.
    With this list you will have 15 twin-linked melta weapons to pop tanks and then plenty of bolters to clear out foot sloggers.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)18:56 No.4672221
    You'll be firing those lascannons against AV14 with a 4+ KFF save. On the offchance you do manage to take one out, you'll just have 20 boyz jumping on top of you.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)18:59 No.4672246

    Not really I do it the first turn (I will only do this if I cant get the penetration bonus for the multimelta).

    The second turn (if me speeders survive) I can unleash the fury of multimeltas on the battlewagons. The speeders can then die but what do I care.

    The deal is the speeders distract so my army can deal with his support elements.

    Destroying the two battlewagons with the nobs is pretty high priority and should not be difficult to take out with the speeders.

    The one with regular boyz can come to my deployment if they like and fight my terminators with thunderhammers.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)19:01 No.4672260
    That's what the flanking Assault squad is for, so you're not hitting that front armor. And with all those bolters ready to fire, the boyz just don;t seem like a very big threat.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)19:05 No.4672299
    If you go to the flanks, you'll be hitting the warbuggy squadron screen.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)19:10 No.4672354
    You're forgetting the looooong battle line of tac squads, who can send a lot of fire down both flanks to clear the way. That's the point, so the entire line has overlaping fields of fire to pile it on the orks.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)19:15 No.4672409

    Here is a list based on the concept i was advocating.

    1980 pts anti BW space moroons

    Forgefather 50 Cent 190

    Elites 500

    6 Thunderhammer Terminators 200

    Landraider Crusader with Multimelta 260

    Troops 615

    Tacticals Flamer Multimelta Rhino 205
    Tacticals Flamer Multimelta Rhino 205
    Tacticals Flamer Multimelta Rhino 205

    Fast attack 420

    2 Landspeeders Heavy Flamer Multimelta 140
    2 Landspeeders Heavy Flamer Multimelta 140
    2 Landspeeders Heavy Flamer Multimelta 140

    Heavy Support 255

    Predator Autocannon Heavy Bolters 85
    Predator Autocannon Heavy Bolters 85
    Predator Autocannon Heavy Bolters 85
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)19:15 No.4672415
    I've been repeatedly bitchslapped by the warbuggy thing. The Ork player deploys the battlewagons side by side, with AV14 facing forwards, and then on either side, a warbuggy squadron. The first turn, everything moves forwards, and the warbuggies move outwards and further forwards slightly. The only lines of sight you can get from anywhere on the front two thirds of the board are against AV14 or warbuggies. The second turn, the buggies move further out and further sideways, again blocking all your flanking units (it's surprisingly hard to take out a squadron of three vehicles). By that point it's too late, and you still have to deal with the buggies before all your wasted flanking units can get back in the fight.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)19:20 No.4672442
    Have you ever tried using an Assault squad to just go over the buggies?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)19:22 No.4672453
    Hrm. No. That might just work. What's got jump packs and can get multiple hits through AV12, and preferably can survive a turn of raping from big shootas?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)19:29 No.4672505
    Power armor for protection of course, and you can load them up with melta bombs, plasma grenades, melta guns, and plasma pistols. It may be small, but the pistol fires a S7 shot, it has a chance of getting through the AV10 rear armor of anything the orks field.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)19:34 No.4672544


    maybe if you play a pure gunline force with zero mobility and you clump your squads together.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)21:00 No.4673234
    Take four units in drop pods. Make two of them sternguard armed to the teeth with meltas, and the other two crappy five man tactical squads for grabbing objectives. Take the first two as your turn one deployment, go second if possible and plonk them right behind him.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)21:19 No.4673411
    This is very true.. All it takes to blow up a big bad vehicle is one lucky shot. I know this fact all too well. All the Mathhammer in the world won't save you from a lucky roll.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)21:29 No.4673475
    >melta bombs
    Sarge only unless you are taking Vanguards (PROTIP: Vanguards suck)

    >plasma grenades

    >melta guns
    Not on ASM you don't

    >plasma pistols
    3 max per 10 man squad
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)21:46 No.4673594
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    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)21:53 No.4673642
    Ironclads in drop pods with seismic hammers.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)21:59 No.4673687

    You must be fucking stupid.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/09(Tue)23:50 No.4674673
         File :1243396209.png-(24 KB, 400x400, ouch.png)
    24 KB
    No, like this. No dead wagons, and a bunch of immobilised and wrecked buggies that block your view and assault on anything else until it's too late.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/09(Wed)00:12 No.4674887

    1. Jump Infantry can DEEP STRAHK, so you can drop your plasma pistol Marines right on the wagons' AV10 rear armor, where they can cause damage on a 3+ Armor Pen roll (and even the other Marines' bolt pistols can glance on AV10).

    2. Those Boardin' Planks don't work on Jump Infantry. Wreckin' Balls do, but it's 4+ to hit only once, and you get your Armor save.

    3. Combat Squads allows you to target up to six wagons in this manner instead of three.

    4. Assault Squads are perfect for tar-pitting and even defeating the 20 Boyz left over when a wagon wrecks.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/09(Wed)00:23 No.4675011
    How do you split the weaponry between the squad halves for combat squads, though?
    >> Anonymous 05/27/09(Wed)00:29 No.4675057
    I dunno, but 10 Assault Marines, three plasma pistols and a thunder hammer for further vehicle-bothering shenanigans costs 265 points. Yeesh.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/09(Wed)00:32 No.4675078
    The problem is though that there's going to be a kff making the battle wagons obscure targets. so they get a 4+ save against any of your shots that penetrate or glance, and then there's still a chance that you don't destroy the wagon.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/09(Wed)00:38 No.4675121

    Indeed, but it's your best chance. Remember that even the bolt pistol shots can glance the rear armor if they're lucky, and 3+ to hit, 3+ to damage and a 4+ Obscured save will probably let at least one plasma shot through.

    If all else fails, however, not even the warbuggies can stop the Assault Marines from staying glued to the wagons and assaulting them the next turn (and a combat squad can tie up the Boyz if they've gotten out).
    >> Anonymous 05/27/09(Wed)00:57 No.4675207
    Anyone who plays with Nobz mobs obviously isn't powergaming. If YOU powergame, you should beat them.

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