Sounds cool, but you're going to attract a lot of aspies.

The deeper you can dive, the stronger you can become- but only while at that level of existence. Two divers fighting on a level of existence that's closer to the Surface might be punching through concrete walls, while highly experienced ones who can fight on a deeper level of existence might knock one another through concrete walls instead.

When someone dives in the presence of others, the pressure that pushes them downwards is applied to everyone present instead, keeping them all on the same level. To use metagame numbers: Say you have a diver who can go from level 0- the surface world- down as far as level 4. If he fights a diver who can go down to level 6, and both are trying go as "deep" as they can, their tug-of-war leads to them fighting on level 5; but the first diver will stop transforming after he passes level 4, and thus be at a disadvantage. Here's a similar example: A level 6 Diver has to face a SWAT team. He pulls them all down as far as he can; they're all instinctively pulling the level back towards 0, so the lowest he can get things is 2. This limits his superpowers to the degree of raw power possible at level 2, but if he takes out some of the team fast he'll be able to pull the rest deeper and become strong enough to finish them off. On the other hand, one of the SWAT team members could manage to unlock some of *their* inner power mid-fight, instinctively using telekinesis or moving at super-speed for the first time.

To nail down the cosmology a little more: The stylized world of the "depths" is given its shape by the experiences of people on the surface, and subtly influences the surface world in turn; to give a simple example, an area with a history of violence has a "depth" that reflects this and nudges people in it towards committing more acts of violence. New experiences slowly overwrite old ones; if you demolish a small office building, then the parallel version of the building will fade away over time. Replace it with a large playground, and the parallel building will vanish more quickly because the children's experiences will be much more intense than those that were had by the bored office workers.

Of course, divers can throw a wrench in these slow-acting feedback loops. Use your powers to destroy the parallel version of a building, and it'll reform in a week or two- but the real-world building's structural integrity will decrease in the process. By meddling with a location's parallel equivalent divers can "exorcise" the evil aura of a haunted house, or "defile" a church to diminish the sense of devotion felt by the people who worship there.

tl;dr Matrix+Bleach+Silent Hill. There's something going on beneath the world we know; those who can see this can enter the parallel existence themselves, and gain supernatural powers in the process.

Sorry again if this is too incoherent to follow.

>>5519912
>Sorry again if this is too incoherent to follow.
Yes, but it was still pretty kick from what I got. So, how would you handle classes, exactly?

Question: when people dive, do they actually leave the current 'plane' and enter the new one? Or, does their perception change, and although they're interacting with the new world, they're still seen on the standard one?

I both love and hate the forced balance of diving- I think you'd find, quickly, that people would try to dive in empty areas. Crowded areas are bad all around, unless you're an evil guy. If people suddenly start seeing things all crazy looking, it's going to cause problems.

Also, what of people who are force-dived, but leave the divers area of control? Are they stuck, or does the eventual equilibrium of them being a 0 and someone else being a 5, and then it's just the 0 bring them back home?

>>5519978

Not OP, but I would assume classless and skill-based, from the description.

>I'm currently inclined to take most of my cues from the Nasuverse

ABORT ABORT

TURN BACK NOW

TURN BACK BEFORE THERE IS TALK OF MOLLUSKS AND NONSENSICAL MAGIC

>>5519894
Made a small mistake here- I meant to say that highly experienced divers could be punching each other through buildings.
>>5519978
I'm thinking some "powers"- mostly your basic strength and speed- would go up for everyone over time, rather like d20's BAB. More distinctive powers, like destructive telekinesis, summoning, and monstrous forms, would likely be handled similar to d20 classes; you have about 4 or 6 basic options, "level up" one at a time but also have the option to split your focus between different powers.

The level you can dive to determines the amount of raw power you can wield, but I imagine leveling up in a given class also increases the skill with which that power can be applied.

As for your abilities when it comes to diving itself: I have to figure out exactly how the in-game process works before I can decide whether one's diving capabilities are directly tied to your character level.

Holy crap this sounds awesome.

>>5520111
While all this DOES sound awesome, I'm not sure I follow your level-denial dive formula.

>>5519988
I haven't actually decided on the answers to any of those questions. For example, one theme I could throw in here is the idea that divers run the risk of "going too deep" and never returning; that even the best divers normally only go as deep as "level 10" (again, levels are just an arbitrary metagame rating of how far you go), and that there could be all sorts of wild stuff lurking even deeper. This would mean that you can have people on different levels of existence within a single room, rather than a given location always being on one "level" at a time. I'd then have to figure out why people are sometimes linked to each other (forcing them onto the same plane of existence) and sometimes not.

The biggest question is probably whether to have divers disappear (with people's minds overwriting their vanishing act in the same way that we don't register the instant of darkness that occurs when we blink) or just zone out or even go into a coma based on how deep they go. I'd rather not set things up so a smart player just has a friend walk over and stab his enemy IRL while the two of them are off having an epic spirit-world duel.

Then again, I also need to decide what the game's gonna be about, period. I currently like the idea of the Depths having various monsters and evil spirits that screw with people's spiritual selves, letting Divers serve as something like exorcists.

>>5520097
Now that I really think about it, I suspect that the original inspiration for this whole late-night brainstorm was actually Berserk- the world of that setting partially overlaps with the spirit world, which in turn partially overlaps with hell. The protagonist's "curse" actually involves being stuck in that overlap with the spirit world, which lets ghosts easily see and interact with him (and vice versa).

>>5520311
I think that if you dived you should disappear, but no just physically. Like if someone was talking to you while you dived and they remained in the regular world, they would completely forget that you were there. It would be as if you completely left this plane of existence.

>>5520311

There could be a happy medium to strive for. Maybe you could only detect or interact with people within a certain number of levels of you.

How easy would diving be? Could you just scale up and down instantaneously, given the appropriate amount of skill?

>>5520111

This is reminding me a little of Don't Rest Your Head. (Which is heavily inspired by Dark City)

The gist of it (IIRC) is that severe insomnia eventually causes an altered state of perception where you encounter the Mad City behind the world, gaining mundane power as you grow tired (shooting, math, running etc) and supernatural power as you grow increasingly insane (fireballs, flight, ZA WARUDO!!!)

##

That aside - having the Level average among everyone equally might suggests a kind of Restricted Space combat, whether by Divers agreeing to create a private zone to increase their available power (and looking like really wierd LARPers to Zeroes/Floaters or just phasing out) or Cities being a relatively safe area (at daylight perhaps)
Having a weighted average, where a Level 6 Diver counts for more than a Level 5 and much more than a Zero/Floater would allow for more publicity - but then you need strong measures to explain why the world doesn't know about it, Paradox (Perceptual Pressure), Memory Loss (Narcosis) whatever.

At night-time, the dreams of thousands might warp and twist the Deeps, perhaps pushing Divers underworld involuntarily - nightmares abound, sleepwalkers are deadly puppets of strange dreamings or just limited Divers.

>>5520452
I like the idea that diving at night is dangerous. Especially at the deeper levels.

Seriously if anyone could make this into a reality it would be FUCKWIN

this would make a better movie/anime IMO

Sounds kinda nightwatch series to me

OP, your basic concept is awesome.
It's also the basis of contemporary fantasy theory - as in, the traditional form of modern fantasy rather then the post-modernity forms we're seeing now.

According to Tolkien fantasy always works in terms of a Primary World - our own, where there is no magic/paranormal/extranormal activity - and several Secondary Worlds - worlds in which it is still recognizably reality but fantastical elements are present to varying degrees. One could argue that LOTR is such a secondary world; whilst there is no obvious 'The Subtle Knife' or 'Rabbit Hole' styled windows into the secondary worlds the point has been made that Tolkien's theory in relation to his own work is that the books and source material he created are in themselves the portals from the primary world to the secondary world - as a meta-concept, at least.

But I digress. You've essentially locked onto that idea in a way that is very cool; rather then the normal crass 'a hole in reality' or 'alternate dimension!' you've got a way of merging that secondary world with the primary world.
One thing you should check out is the film 'Nightwatch' (or read the book if you can get ahold of a non-russian version). It has a similar thing, with this kind of alternate-plane of reality that is tied to our own but can only be accessed by people with special powers. It's also full of vampire/werewolf/weird shit that doesn't translate very well culturally but otherwise is very cool.

I like the idea, but feel that the powers you gain should be more than just "LOL I CAN SHOOT FIREBALLS". They should be themed towards a certain physical or mental property of the diver. Like a very agressive person might gain physical prowess as they dive. Starting with increased strength to the point in the deeper levels nigh invulnerability and regeneration. Also make everyone alter physically to an extent. Regardless if it is into a monster or more mundane like hairdo and eye color.

>>5520225
Let's say we've got a diver who can currently go to level 3, but is still improving further.

First, he gets strong enough to dive to level 4. Once on level 4, it doesn't take much training to unlock his powers further in turn, increasing their raw supernatural power up to the new "ceiling". The character's still limited to level 3 powers while he's on level 3, and still has no supernatural powers while on the surface world (level 0). If someone pulls him to a deeper level, his powers still will be locked at level 4.

In other words, you've got Character Level, Dive Level, and Power Level. CL dictates a character's max DL and PL. A character's current PL is limited to his current DL, or (when pushing himself back upwards to the surface) whatever DL he's currently pushing himself towards.

In the level 4 vs. level 6 scenario mentioned above, having both enemies dive as far as they can leaves them fighting at level 5. The level 6 character is thus limited to level 5 powers, while the level 4 character's still locked at level 4 powers. The level 4 character could instead try to push things towards the surface, thus leaving them on level 3; but this would be a classic rookie mistake, since trying to push back up to level 0 constrains his own power to level 0.

I like the idea of diving at night being dangerous, but should that only apply to urban areas or large cities?
What if you just go out on your own in the middle of the wild to practice diving abilities or would you run the risk of wild untamed and raw dreams from the wildlife being thrown into a world instincts and emotion?

>>5520311

Brainstormin'

Diving could require a symbolic transition - walking through a doorway and never emerging on the other side or jumping into any depth of water.
The nature of it serving to hide it - to those who cannot Perceive they are incapable of seeing the transition, perhaps their brains simply lack the ability to process that kind of input (though repeated exposure would slowly create it) like how a stroke can cause you to lose the ability to perceive anything to your right.

Or they don't disappear - they never do, their power warps reality/perception and only Divers maintain their awareness of the alteration, all others are shifted, changed or fade out for the duration.
Perhaps they cannot support their own existence in a reality that denies theirs, simply act out their Id/desires or are scenery - either way once the Maelstrom fades all things are returned to near-normality, with some strange dreams, mental problems (even mental healing) and no real knowledge that anything supra-normal happened.

>>5520599

Low level divers need a portal like that, higher level ones can simply pop out of being. The degree to which you vanish from the higher levels is also dependent on character level.

This has the potential to be pretty fucking awesome, OP.

Alright for the necessary amount of awesome I'm thinking mutants and masterminds would be the best choice of a system.
As far as plot goes what
>>5520452
was saying about dreamers and how night is inherently more dangerous what if some evil force were trying to make it an eternal night in order to feed off the nightmares and dreams of the normals.

>>5519853
>>5519853
ты спиздил ночной дозор лукяненко. и да, ты знаешь русский.

look up 'fireborn' or 'scion'. or play persona

>>5520553
He should check out the books instead. In there, the Gloom actually does have levels within it, and going in deeper is incredibly and draining.

The movie is still good though.

>>5519978
rather than classes, i would suggest options, like a classless system but instead of picking on the fly you pick a route, for example, instead of picking, wizard, you would pick "low bab" "high will save" etc etc. and they would progress naturally except for your more variable 'class features'

>>5520553
I'm drawing on a large body of influences when it comes to the whole "overlapping world normal people can't see" deal. Bleach, Nightwatch, Silent Hill, Karas. . .

>>5520558
As mentioned above, the idea is that you're transforming yourself along with anything else, with superpowers being aspects of your inner/"true" self revealed. Think of all the stylized ways you can depict someone in anime/manga for dramatic effect (as opposed to comedic effect), based on the sort of character they are- looming physical presence, predatory facial features, eyes that glow with fury or are hidden away by ominous shadows. That's about what someone looks like on level 1; it's the tip of the iceberg. Go deeper and the person with flames in their eyes is now surrounded by a glowing aura, while the one with predatory features becomes a wolflike monster. Most powers would be fairly-open-ended with regards to the fluff shape they take, based off the character in question. I'm trying to decide whether your inner self's powers are determined by your life experiences, or your inner self was present from the start and influenced who you grew up to be a la reincarnation. Does a soldier's inner self summon an idealized version of the rifle he used in the army, or one of the sword he wielded in a past life? I might just go with both options.

>>5520561
I still don't follow.
Sorry.
Could you explain it as a mathematical formula?
EG More powerful Diver: X
Less Powerful Diver/Pulled: Y

Where X and Y relate to each other, it results in Z the final level for all concerned.

Would it be odd, or strange to suggest that when you dive, people who arn't aware of the dive slowly become more ghost like the deeper you go, until utterly vanishing entirely? Perhaps even some of the effects of battles crossing over into the upper levels. Like if you attacked someone and punched them through the building, a building might suddenly collapse in the upper world? And of course the deeper you go, the less features of the upper levels remain. Like maybe a fourth level person would see vague outlines of people. Transparent figures with no faces and such, while someone on the second might still make out detail and differences?

Thread is amazing. I'd like to read up on it, but I'm too tired. I hope someone archives it.

Bah, more idea spam from me. Curse you for your interesting setting Dagda!

>>5520558

In a slightly more freeform approach to powers - a Maelstrom is hashed out each encounter as an amalgam of competing filters, THEN the specific fluff of your powers.

So a Level 5 Maelstrom between a D-Level 6 Dagonite aggressor and a DL4 Ticktock Man would be an underwater battleground (the Dagonite has Dominion) - with submerged ruins of the city they are in.
The Ticktock Man appears as the Nautilus, prowling through the ruins and the Dagonite as a Kraken weaving it's mile long tentacles through the city.
But that kind of transformation might only exist at the really deep layers - where your Perception is stronger than petty things like Identity and Form.

Another example, the Reality is a barren mountaintop and the Divers are a DL8 Druid, DL8 Demon and a very unlucky DL 2 City Slicker - for a Maelstrom of Level 6, which can completely warp basic personal conceptions (body, mind, etc) and alter the Reality to a great degree.

So the mountaintop becomes an impossibly forested paradise - trees that stretch and curve into the sky, drifts of pollen and flowers that glow and as the City Slicker is (surprisingly) allied with the Druid, there are also more structured elements - trees like ramparts, grass in neatish rows - but the CS is only DL2 so he can't add much.
Unfortunately the Demon is as tough as the Druid, but the Druid and CS have Dominion so his presence takes the form of the mountain splitting apart and spitting lava worms and imps while ash rains from the skies. The fight could be between the Druid (as a Treant of course) and the Demon or between the two competing environments.

>>5520692
Нет, я не понимаю русского.

>>5520884

I like this idea, but I'd modify it slightly so that reality was only a reflection of the Deep. For instance, I throw you through a building whilst we're battling it out a level or two down? Then the building collapses, but because it has a structural weakness, and has always had a structural weakness.

Oh, and perhaps deeper on down, people start fading away entirely and instead become some kinda mist? Maybe even the buildings warping into something else, or also fading away.

what happens to your material body when you dive? i can think of two options:

1- floaters (tm), those who cant dive, simply ignore the fact that the person they are viewing dissapper, its too weird and they try to justify it in real world terms.

3- the diver transforms in someway before dissapearing, possibly being the fact behind folklore and superstitions, ie ghosts, spontaneous combustion. this would mean that divers would need to be careful when they dive.

This sounds very much like the Watch quartet.
And that makes it awesome.

Let's say a Diver is about to dive down to level 7. He executes a dive. There is a feeling of thrashing water and of drowning as the world comes rushing up around him. In the real world he winks out of existence and those around him continue on unaware of a change, being too limited in perception. The diver arrives on level 1. It appears near identical to the real world except the people around him are ghostly and without detail. The buildings and trees are deeper in contrast and seem to swell up towards the sky. The diver plunges deeper. Again he is met with the sounds of water and gasps as if entering a freezing lake. Deeper he goes, each level becoming a bizarre reflection of those above. Now on level 7 the surrounds barely resemble those on the surface. The people are now mere lights that flit to and fro, like lightning bugs. The cityscape around him has transformed into a monstrous forest of gnarled trees and steel. The billboards and lights becoming luminescent moss. The air is far colder and gusts around the heavy limbs of the tree-like skyscapers. The diver looks at himself. He is now thinner as if stretched from head to toe. His clothes are different. No longer informal street clothes, but finely crafted dress wear. His movement is fluid and quick. He feels as though he could move a hundred miles in one step. A new strength flows through him. The diver looks to his hand and notices his fingers are now thin and blade-like. He slashes a tree root and severs it cleanly.

And I am sick of writing...

I really like this setting idea, and I think you could easily simulate it with Don't Rest Your Head. The further you go down, the more Madness die you enable, although you might want to shift the Exhaustion mechanic a bit. Also, it gives you the option of getting stuck a little way down from reality (i.e. permanent madness die), which is a very scary but interesting option.

What about this: you have to walk towards the deeper levels. Since this is partially a physical act it can be restricted. I.e. you can't dive if you can't move around. The only way to forcefully draw someone deeper is to make him follow you, or if you want to go deeper with someone you need to follow him. This should balance everything out without any weird crunch.

i think that this is unique enough to warrant its own system

>>5521404

I think adapting DRYH is a better bet. Its similar in theme, and has all the right elements to be very easily moulded to fit, while being a very easy and elegant system to boot.

These responses were delayed due to a busted connection at home- I'm stuck hopping between wireless networks in hopes of a brief moment of functionality. Also the main reason I haven't posted any more images.

The collective unconscious/dreaming idea is cool, except that I'd like to use it to instead make it so diving works best *during* the night. Nighttime urban battles are just the mood I have in mind; OP pic's another example. I might say that you actually can't dive very deeply in remote areas (or at least have a hard time of it) because there haven't been many experiences in the area to give it character. . .but hang on, this could also be used to justify cinematic landscapes. An overgrown field becomes a seemingly endless expanse filled with waves of grain, that sort of thing.

>>5520599
>>5520667
I think a key bit of original flavor I'm trying to get across is that the Depths are this gradual conversion to a layer of our world we don't normally see, one that follows different rules but is by no means separate from out own. As such, I'd want to keep the idea that a Diver sees the world transform- himself included- until he reaches the point where he can't push that transformation any further. There's no magic door to a different place, because you're still in the same place as before; you're just starting to see another side of it.

>>5520673
Barring an original system, I'm inclined to agree, though you'll still want alot of house rules. One bit I intended to mention was that you improve in more ways than just diving ability and raw power level; there's skill in the application of said powers, and also the idea that by steadily realizing your inner potential on deeper and deeper levels you're strengthening your surface self as well- you start operating at peak mental and physical condition. Imagine a take on Batman where he's clearly this guy in a suit while talking to civilians, but the comic then starts drawing him as this predatory thing of shadow whenever he's taking on criminals and kicks it up several more notches when he's facing a member of his rogues gallery (who gets rendered in a similar fashion).

>>5520778
Nah. I want powers to be the star of the show and underlying abilities like reflex save bonuses to follow along in a more automatic fashion.

>>5520858
Dive Level is the average of the different dive levels each person is pushing towards- anyone not actively pushing counts as half a person pushing towards 0. Round down.

So a character level 4 diver and a character level 6 diver can push themselves down to dive level 5 ((4+6)/2). If a non-diver is also present, they can't go beyond dive level 4 ((4+6)/2.5)

>>5520884
I'm thinking people just stop registering the presence of the person in question, rather than seeing a transparent ghost- that'd mess with the idea that the normal world never sees anything clearly supernatural happen.

>>5520909
Sounds like we have fairly different ideas for the underlying flavor of the game- in my mind going deeper means the character gets more archetypical/mythical, depicted in a more symbolic fashion and capable of acts on an epic scale, to the point where they're like gods- The Warrior who makes a canyon by striking the ground with a mighty blow. The Beast who always lurks in the hearts of all greedy men, amplifying their hunger. The Trickster who never fails to come up ways to make the Sun visit yet again.

I hadn't considered having characters' natures automatically affect their environment when they exert themselves- my inclination was to keep things more grounded and hands-on than what you're describing, mostly because it makes things interesting when the character of the place your fighting in can be a big tactical consideration. One location's character can be akin to sacred ground, healing and pacifying all within; another might be fairly close to Silent Hill.

>>5520935
Retcon powers?
. . .INTERESTING. Definitely gonna keep that in mind.

>>5521070
Waaay more literal than what I was thinking. The references to people diving below the surface are an analogy; instead, "divers" stand still and watch the world "morph" around them. There are no separate levels; when someone is said to be capable of "diving to level 6", that's just an arbitrary metagame ranking of how far they can go.

Guy's transformation seems spot-on, though.

>>5522258
This is by far the more interesting idea. I don't like the way the thread has been moving towards "LOL SLIDERS".

>>5521312
Actually, I think being able to forcefully draw people deeper is kinda central to the action as we've described it, makes things so that you can still have some discrepancy in power without it always being too harsh- though you don't want to get caught alone.

I do have some ideas of my own for the system, but I'll take a look at DRYH now- see if I want to borrow any mechanics or even use it as the base.

As someone mentioned being followed is an option, a character that dives vanishes from the real world but anyone that is near him and can see him can choose to follow (perhaps needing skill tests if the person goes farther than his DL). If he doesn't follow the target will simply fade.

And in that sense they do leave the physical world, although the first level or so might still be visible. On this note I'd like to add it would be an interesting addition to travel like this. Rob a bank, lock yourself in the vault, phase out, and leave.

As for the world beyond, I for one think it should be quite desolate. However some places, like cities may have ghosts, dreams or inner demons that lurk in them, kind of like beasts and animals.

Perhaps the lower levels, like 10 and beyond have strange travellers not all unlike us, but very alien still, that come from the other side, and thus dive 'the other way'. These would of course be nasty as hell should someone lead one into the real world, as their powers increase going that way.

For villians or antagonists you could make a group of divers that are actually stuck in dive. They would be things like the Jersey Devil or the Yeti: they are stuck so deep in dive that they have forgotten what they originally were, but actually appear at the Surface from time to time. I realize that this could make them OP, but there should be limitations. For instance, the Rippers (as I'll call them, since they are walking rips in reality) have trouble manifesting in any areas with normal people (as they would all be pulling the area to dive level 0). This could work with the concept of them being like mythical creatures (they always show up when no-one or very few people are around). They could also require and emotional ressonace to manifest as well (i.e. a violent, demon-like Ripper would be able to appear in areas where violent crimes took place). This still makes them terrifying (dive level 6+ powers at Surface), but they should be crystalized (they cannot increase or decrease dive level, representing that they have lost their identity and think that what they are is the truth). This makes for a strong, difficult to face enemy that would be a good antagonist for a group of divers.

Remember to have some unimaginably powerful beings living deeper into the reality, making it a much more dangerous place to dive to. You suddenly don't want to force your enemies to dive with you as far as possible due to the off chance of attracting the attention of something more stronger, and subsequently being forced to dive even further down.

And maybe even these horrors are wary of diving too deep, fearing what lies living there...

So, WoD Immortals, the Purified?

>>5522750
Core concept is that you only get supernatural powers by diving to more supernatural levels. Come back to the surface and you're a mundane human, though if you're a strong diver then you're likely in peak mental/physical condition.

Meaning you can have would-be serial killers who instead choose to make it so hundreds are dying inside, pretty much literally. Plus plenty of other monsters that lost their humanity long ago. As mentioned above, this option sets the divers up as something like exorcists.

>>5522774
That's the plan, though I'm not sure exactly how I'll be implementing it in terms of likelihoods and so on. It's certainly interesting to thing about some epic DBZ-esque battle getting interrupted by something ancient and even more powerful, causing our two overpowered hardasses to go through an abrupt paradigm shift.

>>5522930

Have some of the more powerful superpowers/special abilities they can use while diving have a small chance of starting to attract the attention of an ancient being. The deeper they are and the stronger powers they use, the bigger the chance. And have some sort of small shift happen when it happens for the first time in the same place, such as all the combatants being suddenly pulled one level deeper, as the Horror from Beyond turns it's gaze, trying to find them. And if they continue to use their powers, another roll of bad luck and they are all pulled more deeper, and they start to have problems trying to dive back up. And then they get a really Bad Feeling (tm).

This reminds me of Eversion.

>>5523035
It occurred to me too. Definitely some similarities in the core mechanics, esp. when you're in a region with a really ugly background.