>>5898587
Needless to say the Changeling eventually escaped; he played Chance like the Gambler did, cheating openly and deceptively, until the game was no longer in the cards and dice, but in the lies.

He used the Gambler's ego and confidence to make him slip up, telling him the way to escape. And with that, he made his way through the Hedge, out into our world.

>Gameplayer — The True Fae adore games, even if they despise the possibility of losing. Some Wizened were kept precisely to empower the Gentry’s love of games. The changeling was forced to play against her Keeper, or against canny goblins and cheating imps; or she was made a part of the games, a chess piece in a game that repeated over and over again, or the queen of spades in a long poker game. She mastered many games during her durance, but cannot remember them all; some operated by rules that made no sense in Arcadia, much less in the more solid reality of the mortal world.
>The Gameplayer’s blessing is the Grandmaster’s Stratagem: by spending a Glamour point, she can win any purely mental-based game she plays (such as chess or checkers). She also gains a bonus three dice to any rolls made to gamble with games that involve a mixture of mental acuity and random chance (poker and sports betting, for instance, but not craps).

That would be the Gameplayer kith of the Wizened seeming from page 96 of Winter Masques. It fits the theme of playing games of chance and serving a keeper named the Gambler, though the trials that the character underwent were more than just board games and card games. Of course, there would be some form of poetic injustice in the "reward" that your character would receive from having played such "games" being but a petty edge in trivial, literal games of chance and skill played out on a tabletop.

>>5898587
I like it.

I'd focus on things like Finesse. Wits, Dexterity, Manipulation isn't as important, though.
Maybe Physical as primary for skills, with a focus on things like Athletics and Larceny and Stealth.
Social skills like Streetwise are good, and maybe Intimidate.


Depending on how he feels, his durance could make him want to hold on to what he has, and protect those around him, maybe even giving up his own life because he knows the balance, or it could make him callous and uncaring, because they're nothing more than poker chips. He could also be someone who just shuts everyone out, knowing that he might be forced to gamble with their lives if it ever comes to that.

For Kith, I'd suggest either Antiquarian, or Mirrorskin. The Antiquarian would be someone who relied more on knowledge and knowing how and what to do, while the Mirrorskin would be one who focuses more on hiding and avoiding things.

I would be of more help, but I have to go. Contracts of Smoke, Mirror, those are good for you. I'm sure Touhoufag will be along any second now to plan out your character and tell you exactly what dots you should put where, but I say just do what feels natural with a bit of suggestion from myself and others.

I would suggest not focusing on fighting, but avoiding things. Steal the bullets out of someone's gun, that kind of thing.

>>5898671
Perhaps a different blessing from another kith, and in all other aspects played the same way?

>>5898671
>>5898713
I'm a fan of this angle, actually.

"I played his fucking 'games of chance' for years on end and now I can... play chess and poker better? Fuck this."

>>5898671
Darkling fits this concept better. The Gameplayer is more for someone who's kept as a toy, a challenge, this is gambling, not playing games.
Wizened aren't a very good Seeming. Their contracts badly fit with concepts, and their kiths badly fit with their seeming.

Also, you make it sound so terrible. It's not bad to be able to know you'll win a game of skill when you're going up against a gambler. Then you can make him think it's a sure thing for him. It turns you into the perfect hustler.

>>5898728
Which blessing should I give him, I wonder.

._. Now I'm back to "What the fuck am I".

>>5898587
Fuckin' love it, OP. Fuckin' love it.

I vote a darkling focusing on finesse attributes. IMO he should be a dick who mistreats people.

>>5898839
Well I considered between Darkling and Wizened.

Gonna go darkling. I haven't decided what kith. He'd be nice to you if he ever got close to you, but right now that list's kind of... short. Gambler probably managed to kill his Fetch and daughter, just to piss him off. He probably 'haunts' his gravesite, and he's more than likely got a thing for going apeshit on anyone who tries to toy with him.

I'm gonna guess he doesn't belong to the Spring Court.

>>5898752

>Darkling fits this concept better. The Gameplayer is more for someone who's kept as a toy, a challenge, this is gambling, not playing games.
I am not perceiving how the tenebrous themes of the Darkling seeming match the above concept. It could work with any seeming, really.

>Wizened aren't a very good Seeming. Their contracts badly fit with concepts, and their kiths badly fit with their seeming.
Wizened make perfect sense to me. They are the masters of craftily using objects to create, alter, and destroy, be it the brush and palette of an Artist, the typewriter of an Author, the surgical tools of a Chirugeon, the mop of a Drudge, the hammer of a Smith, or the blade of a Soldier. Their three affinity contracts, Animation, Artifice, and the Forge, exemplify this.

>Also, you make it sound so terrible. It's not bad to be able to know you'll win a game of skill when you're going up against a gambler.
It gives you an edge, but not a complete one: that's what your Intelligence and Composure dots shall decide. Of course, the blessing of the Gamemaster kith works best in conjunction with Contracts of the Board, where you can more or less play a game of mahjong or Warhammer 40k to decide the fate of a clash of armies.

>>5898905
I never really thought of Wizened that way before. Thanks for the idea.

>>5898905
Why the fuck do you always talk like this?

It's really annoying.

>>5898905
>I am not perceiving how the tenebrous themes of the Darkling seeming match the above concept. It could work with any seeming, really.
See:
>He was curious. Too curious. He stumbled upon things he should not have, which caught the attention of a Fae who felt these things were his property, and not to be disturbed.
and
>ones that caused him to choose between atrocities, ones where he must pick one evil over the other in order to survive. Killing a child to save his own daughter in the mortal world. Choosing one of two innocents to die so the other may live. Being made to carry a wounded infant through a maze while being chased by hellhounds, only to have to feed the child to them in order to escape. Anything the Gambler could think of, he would make a stake in; survive enough challenges, and maybe I'll let you play for your freedom again.
These are very Darkling themes.

>Contracts of the Board
Wait, what? Where is this? What does it let you do?
Also stop referring to things like Rites of Spring as if everyone has read and memorized them.

>>5898955
What the fuck are you talking about?

>>5898967
He means this:

>quote
reply
>quote
reply

I don't know why it bugs him.

>>5898963

The Contracts of the Board are in Swords at Dawn, an excellent book.

Also touhoufag has a tendency to pull from oodles of books without necessarily saying what comes from where.

>>5898946
While it's true that they're crafty, I wouldn't put it in so dramatic terms as "create, alter, or destroy".
They're basically just good at making things. Even then, most of the concepts don't really fit well with what they can do. There's one in the book who's a politician. Why would she need to make things, or make objects move? I don't even know what Forge does, but it seems obvious.

Though I will admit that I really don't like the Wizened, and I constantly forget they exist because they seem like a Seeming of odds and ends. They're the generic little goblins and brownies.

>>5898976
I think he means the awkward and frankly archaic sentence structure that treats him (the speaker) as if he's royalty speaking down on the reader.

That in conjunction with the
>quote
reply
>quote
reply
style really bothers me. Especially because the act of quoting everything feels really pedantic and annoying. That's not related to the thread, though, so saging.

>>5899005

They're also the kith of destruction, as well. Methodical disassembly. There's a player in my Changeling game I run who's a Gremlin marriage counselor and psychiatrist. His durance was under a maniacal Plant Fae who was fighting an eternal war against a clockwork army led by a Mechanical Fae, and he was used as a spy and saboteur against the tin men army. He soon became very good at quiet sabotage, disassembly, and the subtle obliteration of trust. He eventually escaped, and realized the two Fae were actually the same one, desperately fighting against itself to try to stay alive. Now instead of fixing marriages and minds, he prefers to find ways to break them apart and look at all the little pieces, before sweeping the junk into the trash.

>>5898955
>Why the fuck do you always talk like this?
I talk like this so that it is easy to follow what i am referring to.

>It's really annoying.
You'll just have to get over it I'm afraid.

OP here. Anyone got any ideas what this guy's mein might actually look like, as far as the qualities that make him inhuman? I can't think of anything in particular.

>>5899066

His eyes are snake eyes. Not like the animal, I mean the dice. His teeth are also polished and square with black divots, looking like dice.

>>5899050
Not Touhoufag.
>>5899066
Kenny Rogers.

>>5898963

>These are very Darkling themes.
You could also make a case for them exemplifying the battle of wits and intellect that the Wizened have had to endure, thinking over choices and evaluating just which one will be the lesser of two evils in this twisted game, his Keeper watching on as though it were but a scientific experiment to see what the mouse in the maze would do to get its cheese and live another day.

>Wait, what? Where is this? What does it let you do?
www.big-metto.net/Upload/files/Contracts_of_the_Board.pdf

>>5899005

>There's one in the book who's a politician. Why would she need to make things, or make objects move?
Not every socialite needs to be a Fairest, and not every Strength-loaded brute is required to be an Ogre. You may as well ask what Grandfather Thunder, an Elemental, requires Contracts of the Elements ••••• (Thunderstorm) for to rule Miami.

>I don't even know what Forge does, but it seems obvious.
The Forge is a mix of alteration and creation. Forge •••, for example, allows you to apport objects that you possess into your hands, though they are but ersatz copies. Forge •••• allows you to reshape your surroundings and tweak details that were not previously obvious ("There is actually a trapdoor leading to the treasury of this building underneath this rug.")

>>5899029
This. This is exactly fucking correct.

The fact that he/she/it posts as Anonymous is the icing on the cake, since it impossible to block the posts they make. Fuck.

Hey Touhoufag, quick note. I can only assume you've looked into Slasher, my question is why haven't you ever incorporated the stupidly powerful Weapon Monomaniac into your builds? It's like a two dot merit that gives you 8-agains on every roll with one specific weapon, at the drawback of needing to have it at all times.

>>5899029
I agree that his inability to speak normally (especially when it would cut the size of a sentence in half with ZERO loss of meaning) is annoying, but the quote/reply structure is generally helpful when responding to more than one point in a post, as well as when responding to multiple posts.

>>5899336

I believe he actually has.

But making a Mask durrsmash build was so stupidly easy he didn't feel the need to advertise it very much.

>>5899377

It's not a Slasher-only merit, is why I think it's stupidly powerful. Yeah, a Mask build is pretty much "Fuck your couches I am made of adamantium" but that's also easy mode. Putting Weapon Monomaniac on that Combat Marksmanship build of his gets into Ludicrous Tier of power though.

>>5899336

Page 127 of Slasher specifically marks the merits in the section in question as subject to ST approval for any non-slasher character, more so than merits usually are:
>The following Merits are especially suited to slasher characters, dealing as they do with the art of serial murder. Other characters may only take them with Storyteller permission.

Additionally, even should you receive authorization to purchase the Weaponry Monomaniac merit, you cannot be guaranteed that your ST shall not go to lengths to attempt to separate you from your chosen armament in the style of forcing paladins to fall in D&D 3.5. It is simply far too risky to consider.

>>5899377

>But making a Mask durrsmash build was so stupidly easy he didn't feel the need to advertise it very much.
I much prefer Psychos to Masks with regards to Scourge-level slashers. The former undertaking is by far the least crippled by its talents, and Deadly Distraction is an excellent talent.

>>5899432

A fair enough point. Still, it's a delicious little surprise for me as a ST to put on enemies.

Also, might as well try a third time, since both times I've asked you've disappeared. Goetic magic: Your thoughts? How would you go about making a character focused on Goetia? Not exactly a minmaxer's build but I'm interested to see how you'd do it.

OP here.

Still wondering what kith of Darkling to use.

>>5899525

I believe the consensus was "Try Wizened" or maybe a Darkling with a dual kith to get Gameplayer.

>>5899495

I seem to have missed your request both of your queries in the past. You have my apologies. Now, would you like a practical overview of Goetic (Mind/Spirit) magic first, or would you prefer me to entertain you with the heights of stupidity that it can lead to before that?

>>5899560

I am fully familiar with how retarded Mind magic can get (though if Spirit has similarly legendary dick moves before 5 dots I am unaware of them), but I'd like to focus more on Goetia's applications, even though it's rather niche. I've had a soft spot in my heart for it for a long while, and look for new stuff about it in each new book. Therefore I have a pretty good knowledge of it, but you may be aware of intricacies and applications that I am not.

>>5899581

>though if Spirit has similarly legendary dick moves before 5 dots I am unaware of them
Well, I suppose it would be best to demonstrate these. Let us say we are a Mastigos of the Mysterium who possesses Gnosis 3, Mind 4, Spirit 4, Resolve 5, Presence 4, Occult 5, Persuasion 5, membership in the Clavicularius legacy from Legacies: the Sublime, the rote for Create Fetish, as well as said legacy's rote for the Goetic Evocation spell, which uses Presence + Occult + Spirit. With a base dice pool of 4 + 5 + 4 + 1 = 14 for the spell, we may perform up to 14 rolls for the extended action casting of Goetic Evocation. Taking 30 minutes before each roll to invoke High Speech grants us a +2 dice bonus. 16 * 14 = 224 dice in total, for an average of 75 successes. This process shall take consume a grueling 21 hours, but its reward shall be sweet.

Assuming we have a Wisdom of 4, the base target number of successes would likewise be 4, granting us 71 successes to upgrade our casting of the spell. The default traits of this goetic demon would be: Rank 1, Power 2, Finesse 2, Resistance 2, Influence (Sin) 2, Numen (Materialize), and Numen (Possession). Let us spend 3 successes raising its Rank to 4, 10 successes raising its Power to 12, 10 successes raising its Finesse to 12, 9 successes raising its Resistance to 11, and 14 successes granting it the Blast, Camouflage, Heal, Hellform, Howl, Terrify, and Transmogrify Victim numina. With our 25 remaining successes, we shall extend the duration of the existence of this beast to 44 days.

Coming up next: Becoming the demon.

>>5899840
Oh lawd, this is going to be awesome.

>>5899840

>71 successes to create your Goetic Demon

Well zog me, you're already lightyears beyond what I'd come up with.

>>5899840
>>5899881
>71 successes to create your Goetic Demon

I hope you all die.

>>5899840

So, we have ourselves a Rank 4, Power 12, Finesse 12, Resistance 11 goetic demon with nine numina under our command. We then use our 14-dice rote for Create Fetish in a similar extended casting process to bind the spirit into a physical object. Any item will do, though for this example, we shall assume it to be an armcannon. We cram our goetic demon into the device and similarly extend the duration of the spell to a month or two. This shall be our weapon of mass destruction.

We activate the device, gaining access to all of the aforementioned numina. Without a second thought, we use Transmogrify Victim on ourselves... replacing our Attributes with those of the demon. We now have Intelligence 12, Wits 12, Resolve 11, Strength 12, Dexterity 12, Stamina 11, Presence 12, Manipulation 12, and Composure 11. While our 24-dice Blast numen would be ample enough for incinerating our foes, we could invoke the Hellform numen in times of need, granting us a +4 bonus to attack rolls along with "an additional attack for every dot of Finesse over 3", for a total of ten 27-dice Blasts each turn. We also have 24 dice for our Heal numen, should we find ourselves battered and bruised, and our 24-dice Howl and Terrify numina can effortlessly cause armies to flee. Our Camouflage numen also imposes a -12 dice penalty on anybody trying to perceive us altogether, effectively granting us invisibility to all but the most keen of eyes.

The only weakness with this plan is the sheer Essence it drains from our goetic demon.

>>5900018

>Brickshittingly scary invisible death monster that can heal itself and shoot goddamn laser beams
Sweet Jesus, you've just made the Predator.

>>5899840
>>5900018

Welp, I guess I'm eating my words about not being able to minmax Goetia. Any other not-necessarily "Fuck The World Button" options for it?

>>5900018
Holy christ in a basket, I'm gonna make this in a game one day and my ST is going to make me fight yog-sothoth or something.

>>5900018
>>5899840
I sense... nWoD Pun-Pun.

>>5900018
>STOOOOOONEEEEEEERRRR SUUUUUUUNSHIIIIIINE

>>5900099

Get an easy way to pump Essence into the demon to fuel the Rape-Cannons and yeah, this is getting pretty close.

And people complain about you taking four dots in a combat skill why?

>>5900070
Or he'll kill you.

Seriously, what the fuck are you doing?

>>5900145

A creative DM would play up the fact that YOU ARE BINDING A DEMON OF SIN TO YOUR BODY WHILE YOU ARE DOING THIS. Hubris out the ass and you can bet your balls its Sin influence doesn't even need rolls on you anymore.

>>5900018

>Our Camouflage numen also imposes a -12 dice penalty on anybody trying to perceive us altogether, effectively granting us invisibility to all but the most keen of eyes.
Hm, it seems there is a problem with this. The Camouflage numen requires complete stillness, so it is obviously incompatible with our mission. I suggest we simply take the Savant numen for another 3 dice on our Blast numen, unless anybody has a superior suggestion.

>>5900047

Please allow me to get back to you in a few minutes. I shall not forsake you.

>>5900164

Except it's *your* demon.

*Your* sin.

It's selfish bullshit, but *your* selfish bullshit.

>>5900190

Morphic Form to gain flight, swimming, climbing, size changes, etc? lasts Power+Finesse roll successes hours.
Damnation's Path for the flavor?

>>5900145
He wouldn't "rocks fall, you die" on me but he would make my character suffer the fallout of such monumental hubris. And becoming a huge fuckoff demon usually incurs the wrath of even bigger, fuckoff-er demons.

>>5900018
We need a way to apply Defense against firearms or we're going down to a bunch of infantrymen.

>>5900243
Can't you just make them scream and run?

>>5900260
But then we don't get to beamspam them down.

­

>>5900260
But do you really want to take the risk of having 20 snipers shoot you down?

>>5900260
>>5900243

Think about it. You see a horrible nightmare beast made of PURE ANGRINESS (Or horniness, or laziness, or greediness) coming towards you, rippling with muscle and hellfire, shooting lasers from its eyes that blow up city blocks. Are you going to
A) Shoot it, making it angrier
B) Piss yourself
C) Shit yourself
D) Run screaming like a girl
or E) All of the above except A

>>5900287

Shoot it!

Doom has taught us guns kill demons.

>>5900287
And so, the =I=/IG was born.

Seriously, it sounds so 40K it hurts.

>>5900243

You forget we're still a Mage. We still have Mind 4 and Spirit 4 and all of our rotes ON TOP OF BEING SUPERDEMON.

>No John you are the demons

Couldn't this get even more wacktastically broken with Shape Spirit added into the mix to pump up the Demon even more?

>>5900331
Yeah, but that's Spirit 5.

Original requester here. I'll be at dinner for a little while, eager to see what pops up by the time I get back.

>>5900047

Goeticism is essentially a mix of Mind and Spirit magic. Therefore, it would be in your best interest to be either a Mastigos with a Spirit/Mind legacy (starting arcana of Mind 3, Spirit 2, Space 1) or a Thyrsus with a Mind/Spirit legacy (starting arcana of Spirit 3, Mind 2, Life 1). The former option provides you with the two actual Goetic-themed legacies of the game, the Clavicularius from Legacies: the Sublime and the Bene Ashmedai from the Silver Ladder sourcebook. Of these two legacies, I would say that the Bene Ashmedai possess superior attainments. For the Thyrsus route, the most fitting legacy would PERHAPS be the Skalds from Legacies: the Sublime, which has rather interesting attainments, though it's spiritual music-themed and not very Goetic-ish at all.

Now, as of Summoners, Goetic summoning is a subset of Astral summoning. This would be the art of summoning Astral entities from one's own Oneiros and the Temenos... using only Mind. Such creatures bear fanciful names such as morpheans, esoterics, alethians, dementias, exemplars, and iniquities. And then there is this: "Lastly, while Astral summonings may be, mechanically, identical to spirits, they are not affected by the Spirit Arcanum. Instead, a mage who wishes to control, bind, or otherwise infuence such an entity substitutes the Mind Arcanum at an equivalent dot level."

I know I have read this before, but this is still very jarring to read. White Wolf has actually given Mind the ability to summon and control its own form of pseudo-spirit. Still, Goeticism would technically remain in the domain of Mind AND Spirit, so it would be best to continue your career path as planned. Books you should read up on include Summoners, Astral Realms, and the book containing the legacy which interests you. Any questions?

>>5900287
>You see a horrible nightmare beast made of PURE ANGRINESS (Or horniness, or laziness, or greediness) coming towards you, rippling with muscle and hellfire, shooting lasers from its eyes that blow up city blocks.

But it's still only Size 5. Human-sized, you know?

>>5900656
It has the giant merit reaching a whopping size 6.

>>5900306
>And so, the =I=/IG was born.

The Malleus Maleficarum and Task Force: VALKYRIE join forces?

>>5900585

Not really, I'd seen the basics before. Two extra notes, there's Summon Eidolon in the Banishers book which is essentially Virtue-based Goetia, and there's also the (extremely rare) Goetic Familiar merit from Grimoire of Grimoires. I haven't really looked into Bene Ashmedai, preferring Clavicularius, but I'll look now. The Fuck You And Die Demon Form is a terrifying concept, however. My limit of Goetia before was a Mind/spirit Mastigos in the Clavicularius, possibly with Goetic Familiar and Eidolon.

>>5900682
>>5900656

There's Morphic Form like i mentioned, which can increase size.

>Numina: Graven Image: As long as a visual representation of the demon exists, the demon has a place to hide and can-not be destroyed. The Se’ir knows whether any other images have been made, and can use any representation of itself as a home by permanently investing three points of Essence in the object, which is removed from the Se’ir’s maximum Essence pool. (So a Se’ir with two homes can only have 14 points of Essence, and so on.) The Graven Image removes the need for any other Numina of manifestation, and anchors the demon in the Material Realm without the need for further expenditure of Essence.

This is from page 100 of Secrets of the Ruined Temple. We could definitely consider this as one of our numina should survival be a top priority, though it would chip away some of our maximum Essence.

>>5900875

Good point on Summon Eidolon and Goetic Familiar, though the latter is far too expensive as a 5-dot merit.

>>5901001

Oooh. I like it. Does this count against the limited manifestation time from Goetic Evocation?

I'm tempted to keep trying to make this idea even crazier, allowing Mind/Spirit 5 shenanigans, other numina possibilities, etc.

>>5901001

Ah, one thing I forgot: The Key of Brass and Flame isn't just for the familiar (the Astral version of it seems pretty nice), but it also lets you count your Wisdom 3 lower than normal for the purposes of Goetia (success counts and hubris rolls), while giving you just about every Goetic spell as a rote. Problem being, the book itself is in the Astral, in an Astral Atlantean Temple that has only rumors of existence, and it's a total unknown whether the book itself can even be removed from the Astral.

>>5898955
Maybe he's Kimmo Alm.

>>5900018
...
...
...
...
...
You are banned from all of my games.

>>5901440
Congrats, you just banned someone you weren't even going to play with.

>>5901440
Why does this towel have a face in it?

>>5901463
Congrats, you just completely missed the joke.

Okay. I did some additional number crunching to see how stupidly powerful this can get.

I upped the Mind/Spirit to 5 dots each, Resolve to 5, and put Gnosis at 5 dots to get the second attainment of Clavicularius, which is going to be sorely needed as you will soon see.

Taking all of Tohoufag's stat examples aside from changes previously mentioned, the roll to embody the demon now takes 16 hours, and gets 96 successes. This new bounty of successes is used to put the Influence (Sin) to five dots, prune down the enormous cost of duration to 5 successes to make it INDEFINITE thanks to Spirit 5, put Morphic Form to the list (Camouflage stays, it's handy when it's handy), and put Resistance to 12 dots. However, this still leaves us with something in the neighborhood of 37 successes to play with. We put all of these into Potency, meaning to dispel or invoke Disbelief on the spirit, you need to get over 40 successes. This ensures the Demon will never, EVER go away.
Since we have time to kill, we spend 8 hours making the fetish, giving it a potency of 31 (since I'm not sure if using the Numina from the fetish counts towards Disbelief) and making it last Indefinitely as well.

>>5900287
>blow up city blocks

Wait, do our Blasts ignore Durability and Armor? Because if not, we won't be blowing up tanks or buildings any time soon.

>>5901592

This leads to the Demon-Mage now having 12 in every stat, being a Master of Spirit and Mind, have a dice pool of 24 for every Numina but Blast (which, with Hellfire, is 10 27 dice pools), the ability to shift size to gain an increase in Health dots, fly, swim, breathe underwater, and essentially do anything to its physical form.

There's one gigantic achilles heel, as stated in Goetic Embodiment: "The demon follows the mage’s orders, although if the mage himself engages his personal Vice, derangement or Flaw while this spell is in effect, the demon is freed from control and turns its attentions to corrupting the mage."

This, paired with the demon being Indefinite, means if we *EVER* go "Oops my derangement from low Wisdom triggered" or "Oops I punched someone in the face" our demigod-powerful fetish spirit will turn against us. This is a Very Bad Thing. This is where Goetic Bulwark, the second Clavicularius attainment, comes in. It's essentially a free casting of Goetic Struggle, but against an additional flaw or derangement in addition to the vice. This gives us a last line of defense against succumbing to sin and having Satan bust loose from our necklace and start ruining everyone's shit.

So the character can become all-powerful but must resist pretty much every sinful or deviant urge or the world as he knows it comes to an end. Pretty awesome concept, actually, though God knows I'd never play the actual character. This is rapidly approaching Pun-Pun levels of shenanigans, and I didn't even use stuff like Shape Spirit.

>>5901598

• Blast: The spirit is able to strike opponents at a distance. An electricity-spirit might hurl small thunderbolts at foes, while a pain-spirit might conjure spiritual knives. The range is equal to 10 yards per point of Power, and the spirit suffers no penalties for range. Power + Finesse is rolled to hit and two dice may be added to the roll for every point of Essence spent to fuel this power. The damage is lethal.

Hmm. Nope. But when you're chucking around 270 dice worth of Lethal damage, I don't think it matters much.

Hey OP. You could always go Dualkith (2/3 dot merit at charcreation). If you're desperate for the darkling seeming. Whisperwisp/gamesplayer would make for a great hustler.
You could also try and talk to your ST about creating your own kith. That tends to get great results, but can be hampered by lack of imagination.
Really Gameplayer is probably you're best bet for a gambling man. Just make him nice and dark with his skills and attributes to reflect his darkling-ish nature.

Oh! Leachfingers would work, during his durance he continued to live by commiting attrocities, so it's like he was gaining life from humans. Dual kith up a Leachfinger/Gameplayer.

>>5901592
>>5901611

Holy.
Shit.

>>5901684
>you're

>>5901592

>I upped the Mind/Spirit to 5 dots each, Resolve to 5
We could increase our rote pools further through Augment the Mind, though that would surely be overkill.

>This new bounty of successes is used to put the Influence (Sin) to five dots
While this would be quite thematic, Create Fetish unfortunately does not allow us access to the influences of the bound spirit.

>put Resistance to 12 dots
A total of 35 attribute dots is the absolute limit for a Rank 4 spirit, unfortunately.

>We put all of these into Potency, meaning to dispel or invoke Disbelief on the spirit, you need to get over 40 successes. This ensures the Demon will never, EVER go away.
Your forethought is to be commended.

>>5901611

>This is where Goetic Bulwark, the second Clavicularius attainment, comes in. It's essentially a free casting of Goetic Struggle, but against an additional flaw or derangement in addition to the vice.
Declare Sloth as your Vice. Never stop for a rest... then again, we are sorely lacking a steady flow of Essence.

So we've officially statted out Satan. That's.. that's just great. And I'm the one who laughed at the Clavvies. What about disbelief? Surely turning up in a crowd of people is going to let them roll 40 dice worth of successes.

>>5901611

I like it. I'd let someone play that for the narrative potency of the concept.

You've essentially got unlimited power, but you can't use it without drawing enough attention to see you either outright annihilated or on the run permanently for the rest of your life.

You are also in a constant battle of wills against a demon, the entities who fucking specialise in making people lose. If you give in even once, it's over, and you're either going to be dragged screaming to hell, or the now-freed demon will bring hell to you.

Would suicide free or kill the demon?

>>5901754
>The spirit’s powers do not invoke Paradoxes or Disbelief. Spirits are native to the Fallen World and do not invoke the same reactions as Supernal magic.

>>5901754
They don't get to disbelieve until you pop your first hadoken, which will not doubt cull said crowd's numbers down a bit.

I just looked up PunPun. HOW THE FUCK DO THEY DO THAT WITH FIVE CLASS LEVELS?

>>5901777
People are going to notice the aura of hte spirit hovering around the necklace, though.

>>5901738

I admit pumping up the Influence was due to a lack of ideas for the other Numina, and the fact that aside from Numina and Potency I had to stuff in 40odd successes SOMEHOW. Also, Sloth would indeed make it harder for the spirit to regain essence, but would actually be more insidious. Lust and Wrath are obvious sins, you know when you're doing those. Sloth? Would "Just five more minutes, mom...zzzz" count enough to allow Sleepy Satan to erupt from your nightcap and put you into a coma?

>>5901754

I can't quite find rules for mass Disbelief, but let's say the average mortal has Resolve+Composure = 4. That's about one success per mortal. He'd have to show up in front of 40 people before he got in the danger zone if there was mass disbelief, which is just a bad fucking plan to begin with. If it's only per sleeper, that's about two hours of staring at the demon per person before he starts getting in trouble.

>>5901810
I like this. The Destroyer is not only manifest, he's wandering down your street arse naked carrying a candle and a pointy nightcap, scratching himself and looking for a cup of coffee.

>>5901788

Blatant cheating, that's how.

The major aspect of Pun-Pun is that loophole in the shapeshifting he abuses, but the class/feat/idontremember that allows it is from a book by Mongoose Publishing, a non-official source and known to put out retardedly broken shit all the time.

>>5900875

>Two extra notes, there's Summon Eidolon in the Banishers book

This brings something to mind: could we not use Call Eidolon in place of Goetic Evocation, binding an angel of pure Justice, Hope, Faith, or another heavenly virtue to ourselves?

>>5901846
You have no idea what you're talking about.

>>5901865

Really? It's been a long time since I've actually looked at Pun-Pun so I may actually be wrong, sorry.

>>5901859

"Unlike a goetic demon, an eidolon is not automatically bound to follow the mage’s orders, but it feels a duty of care and will usually help its host unless she’s planning an immoral act."

Both less strict and stricter, and you could play up the fact that Virtue-based entities (as mentioned in Inferno) are almost as alien to use as Vice-based entities. You let a criminal go free, the Eidolon wrenches itself free and blasts your head off, or just mind controls you. Also since the spell is essentially a copy/paste of Goetic Embodiment aside from Virtue, there may arguably be a "escape clause" for them as well.

>>5901859

You know, I like that even more. I want to encourage my players to play power-mad psychopaths who gave up everything for power, whose main enemy is a religious order of mages who use the Eidolon equivalent to become avatars of angels.

That way not only is there the "everyone who finds out about you wants you dead because you're a threat" angle, the "hell fucking hates you for pissing with its shit" angle, the "if you fuck up so much as once in any way bye-bye city" angle, but there's also real-live angels walking around out there who are fundamentally built for the purpose of ruining your shit.

That'd be awesome. Hell, I want my players to realise that if they just go nuts in there's not much to stop them so they can turn around soon enough and see a fucking burning incarnation of pure Justice.

That, and I want to make an angel of Consequence and go around giving every fuckhead organisation exactly what they deserve.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_(DnD_Optimized_Character_Build)

>>5901918
You become the Punisher. Except the Punisher doesn't have an arm that fires blasts capable of levelling a small city.

>>5901918

I see. It seems as though we shall be remaining with Goetic Inversion, then.

>>5901954

>"hell fucking hates you for pissing with its shit"
Goetic demons do not actually originate from Hell; they originate from one's own mind. This is clarified in the Inferno sourcebook.

>>5901994

Still. You're trucking around with Jagglings made from your own sins. That's going to piss off anything Virtuous.

>>5901994

I know, but it's a lot easier to shift the fluff so this applies where you want than to shift the rules to make what you want work.

We still don't have Defense vs. firearms, do we?

>>5902129

We got 19 or so health levels at the very least, with Mage Armor, Mind 5, Spirit 5, and our Numina. Do we NEED it?

>>5902140
Since if anything finds out what you are you will likely get shot up by a squad of snipers (thus rendering your 24 initiative to shit), yeah, you probably want it.

>>5902140

Several snipers bringing to bear .50 BMG with Armor Piercing 6 shall still ruin our endeavors. I unfortunately cannot recall any covert spell which shall outright allow us our Defense against firearms, though Track Projectile (Space 2 + Time 2) from page 185 of the Adamantine Arrow sourcebook comes close. With Intelligence 12, Wits 12, Dexterity 12, and Composure 11, I shall be damned if that does not grant us our Defense against firearms, though it would not be by the rules, compromising our goals.

As an aside, Kinesthesia (Mind 3 + Space 1 + Time 1) from page 183 of the same supplement would confer upon us undiminishing Defense even against multiple attackers. Yet another spell from the book, Feral Reflex (Mind 3 + Life 3) allows us to use the higher of our Wits or Dexterity for Defense. After raising our Wits to 17 through Augment the Mind, such a spell would provide us with immense Defense. It seems as though we shall be investing in Life 3, Space 2, and Time 2 for this hypothetical mage of ours. Disbelief shall prove a concern, however, and as such, these spells must be ritual cast for monumental Potency.

This demands writefaggotry

>>5902240

And archival. I'd love to writefag this, having seen my brainchild get to such glorious brokenness, but the itch just isn't there right now.

>>5902232

There's also the question of having to eventually sacrifice willpower dots to release spells, but releasing the Fetish/Demon would be a TERRIBLE idea, since you wouldn't ever be able to dismiss them. There's also the question of getting the time to spend practically a week straight layering on Batman contingencies.

So we got Mind 5, Spirit 5, Life 3, Time 2, Space 2, Gnosis 5, Resolve 5, Presence 4, Occult 5, Persuasion 5 for the important stats. Seems like at the level of experience this would require you'd be like unto a god no matter what you decided to do.

>>5901001
>Numina: Graven Image: As long as a visual representation of the demon exists, the demon has a place to hide and can-not be destroyed. The Se’ir knows whether any other images have been made, and can use any representation of itself as a home by permanently investing three points of Essence in the object, which is removed from the Se’ir’s maximum Essence pool. (So a Se’ir with two homes can only have 14 points of Essence, and so on.) The Graven Image removes the need for any other Numina of manifestation, and anchors the demon in the Material Realm without the need for further expenditure of Essence.

1. Drawfag demon.
2. Spread pic on 4chan.
3. ???
4. IMMORTALITY.

>>5902240
Bonus points: Must include the line "And that's when I got man..."

>>5902287

Oh. Dear. Christ.

We're all already dead.

>>5902286

Maybe, but would the other ways be quite so fantastic?

>>5902288
>>"And that's when I got man..."
>>I got man
>>man

Best spelling mistake ever.

>>5902309
Oh hells no. Unless you go life/death and make yourself a dragon made of solid shadows that breathes flesh melting poison or something.

>>5902286

>Mind 5, Spirit 5
We only really need Mind 4 and Spirit 4 to execute this; as only a second-degree adept, however, we would need to perform the rituals monthly instead of only once. The benefit of this is that, should we err and unleash the demon, we have a sliver of hope in waiting it out for a month.

>>5902399

Mind/Spirit 5 lets us put a month's duration at 2 extra successes instead of 30. It's a question of how much you want the potency jacked up, really.

When I started this thread, I did not plan on it becoming the glorious thing it is now.

Why is this not on sup/tg/ yet?

>>5902439
I thought you'd have gone butthurt from the opti-faggotry.

>>5902604

I don't really want to put on myself, smacks of ego. Hmmm. Do spirits count as Living Targets? If not, Shape Spirit may be able to be made indefinite as well. Fuck yeah, making a Spirit be rank 5!

>>5902646
>I don't really want to put on myself

You can't wear yourself, silly.

>>5902691

I could skin myself and wear myself. Take THAT, Buffalo Bill! There's crazier people out there!

Hmm. Idea from a friend: Ratchet back the batshit insane power levels, but keep the "sin and it's released," some of the Numina, and make the fetish into an artifact. Perfect way to muck with a mortal nWoD game, to introduce the supernatural

>>5902646

Shape Spirit would lead to the possibility of a Rank 5 spirit with Power 15, Finesse 15, Resistance 15, and an astronomical eleven numen slots. However, it would be impossible to extend the duration of this spell to Indefinite without archmastery, and Shape Spirit does not guarantee that the spirit is formed automatically under our control.

>>5902439
So what did you end up deciding, op?

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/5898587

Officially archived.

Hey Touhoufag, got any tips for making a Purified from Immortals?

>>5903242
I don't think they've got anything really breakable, so he probably doesn't.

bump because everyone fucking needs to see this shit.

>>5900018
>We activate the device, gaining access to all of the aforementioned numina. Without a second thought, we use Transmogrify Victim on ourselves... replacing our Attributes with those of the demon. We now have Intelligence 12, Wits 12, Resolve 11, Strength 12, Dexterity 12, Stamina 11, Presence 12, Manipulation 12, and Composure 11. While our 24-dice Blast numen would be ample enough for incinerating our foes, we could invoke the Hellform numen in times of need, granting us a +4 bonus to attack rolls along with "an additional attack for every dot of Finesse over 3", for a total of ten 27-dice Blasts each turn. We also have 24 dice for our Heal numen, should we find ourselves battered and bruised, and our 24-dice Howl and Terrify numina can effortlessly cause armies to flee. Our Camouflage numen also imposes a -12 dice penalty on anybody trying to perceive us altogether, effectively granting us invisibility to all but the most keen of eyes.

This is absolutely beautiful and I must bump it too.

Bump one last time so Touhoufag can see >>5903242 .

>>5902604
>I thought you'd have gone butthurt from the opti-faggotry.

Not OP, but I'm butthurt about it. Seriously. This... this is beyond anything else. This is the nWoD Punpun.
It's bad enough that now every thread about WoD turns into "Hey, Touhou, how can I make an incredibly broken character", but this is ridiculous even for that.

>>5903242

My apologies go out to you as well; my internet connection is quite unpredictable. In any case, these would be the main benefits of the Purified template:
+ You receive six free skill dots and three free merit dots during character creation, rendering you significantly mundanely talented, as well as capable of beginning play with a Supernatural Advantage of 3 AND a four-dot merit.
+ You are a nigh-immortal, eternally-reincarnating, transcendent being whom few others can permanently vanquish.
+ By purchasing but a 3-dot merit (Familiar) and a 1-dot merit (Totem), you can have your very own pair of spirit companions to aid you in your journey.
+ You can negotiate with, pacify, quell, and control ghosts and spirits with a considerable degree of proficiency, allowing you to serve double duty and fill in the roles of both werewolves and sin-eaters.
+ The siddhi of Warding are tremendously powerful against non-ephemeral beings, as they can outright deny your foes access to a location or even access to their supernatural abilities.

Of course, each of these benefits has its downsides, which I shall explain in the following post.

>>5905091
Proceed...

I dearly wish I could depart from this third-world country and its tremendously bad internet service providers, but then that would mean losing my maids.

>>5905091

- On the flip side, the powers of the Purified are noticeably expensive: new dots * 7 XP for siddhi and 10 XP for a numen. In addition, the Attributes and Skills called for by the dice pools of siddhi and numina vary far too wildly. Piercing the Distance • uses Wits + Investigation, •• uses Presence + Expression, and ••• uses Manipulation + Athletics. Projection • uses Resolve + Investigation, •• uses Composure + Occult, and ••• uses Wits + Occult.
- If you happen to have died with mortal witnesses present, or worse, in a precarious location such as inside an incinerator or encased in concrete, while shall still prove possible to restore yourself to the land of the living, the process may bring along a slew of difficulties. (Do invest in a Ritual Crypt for 2 XP to stymy some of these issues.)
- While a little company is superior to none, these spirits are somewhat feelbe and require maintenance.
- Anything other than ghosts and spirits remains largely out of your element. While you still have access to your space-manipulation siddhi and your handful of numina, they are by no means enough to put you on the level of other greater supernatural templates.
- The siddhi of Warding obviously require you to have prepared the area beforehand, and it is impossible to guarantee such in every possible situation.

The Purified are very much like Space/Spirit mages whose Spirit powers also happen to affect ghosts and who possess an immensely beneficial revival ability. They function best as explorers and mediators of the ephemeral entities of the Shadow and the Twilight, and spies and reconnoiters when dealing with those of material flesh. Of course, like any other supernatural entity, a Purified can fit any role and any concept with the proper Attributes and Skills.

>>5905870

>I dearly wish I could depart from this third-world country and its tremendously bad internet service providers, but then that would mean losing my maids.

>but then that would mean losing my maids.

> losing my maids.

>maids

WAT

>>5905870

In summary, pretend you are playing a Space/Spirit mage who can also affect ghosts and who has the luxury of continues. You have little to no powers that can directly help you in combat, so you shall have to act smartly and suavely, relying on your (thankfully increased) mundane capabilities to carry you throughout a scuffle.

>>5905894

Maids, live-in houseservants. This is the Philippines, and they are plentiful in this archipelago.

>>5906132

Addendum: No siddhi or numina use Strength or Stamina, so feel free to be a Dexterity-based fighter. Additionally, the Heal numen, costing 10 XP and using a dice pool of Wits + Medicine + Chi, is a superb choice of power despite your vastly increased healing rate. Of course, you could always relegate the numen to your Familiar spirit or your Totem spirit.

>>5906190
Heal only works on others though. How's the Blast Numen for having some offense?

Also, Locus merit, yay/nay? It seems like it's a royal pain in the ass to get essence, so having a guaranteed area you can go to seems useful, especially if you're getting the Warding powers anyways.

>>5905894
He's a rich, spoiled child living in a third world country where he barely speaks his own native language.

You think he'd sully his own hands making a bacon weave?

>>5906190
> superb choice of power despite your vastly increased healing rate.
You know, uh, the people around you can still die.

>>5906132

>Heal only works on others though.
Well, I had never noticed the "heal others' wounds" portion. My mistake. Grant it to your familiar instead of purchasing it for yourself, then.

>How's the Blast Numen for having some offense?
You would most likely be best off with an actual weapon, such as an M1911A1 or a Bowie knife with Fighting Finesse 2. That way, you would be able to apply your mundane skill specialty along with a Fighting Style, and such Physical merits pave the way to great success in a showdown. That said, should you be a Weaponry-based fighter, Blast would make for a fine backup (and ranged) weapon.

>Also, Locus merit, yay/nay?
It is a good merit, though I would place it below Chi 3 (twice), Familiar 3, Totem 1, and perhaps a Fighting Style on the priority list.

>>5901954
Where is this Call Eidolon? DO WANT.

>>5906891
>Eidolon in the Banishers book

Wow, this thread's still up?

>>5908180
More people need to be aware of what has happened in this thread.

OP's back;

I still don't know what to do with my character.

>149 posts and 30 image replies
>I still don't know what to do with my character.

Welcome to /tg/, OP.

...christ.
This...this is fucking insane.

>>5908647
Well, I did give you this >>5898697
It's not my fault you didn't pay attention. Did you want me to make your character for you, too, like Touhoufag does?

This is what the first people who saw the Pun-Pun build probably felt like.

>>5910475
This is, however, /tg/ doing it, instead of CharOp over at Wizards...

OP Pic made me think of Slenderman.

Which makes me wonder, what would Slenderman be in the World of Darkness?

>>5901788
FIVE?

THEY CAN DO THAT IN ONE KNOWLEDGE CHECK AT LEVEL ONE

also, goddamn this thread is huge

>>5901738
>We could increase our rote pools further through Augment the Mind, though that would surely be overkill.
...

>>5910878
What the fuck is slenderman? Is it anything like the shadow people?

I'd say Spirit.

>>5911140

>>5910878
perhaps a specter of some sort

>>5910445
Jesus, butthurt much? Go back to bed.

>>5908647
Kinda got lost in the shuffle, but >>5901684 looks good. Talk to your ST about creating a personal kith, or go with something like leachfinger to represent the living at the sacrifice of others.

So, what's the final stats for getting that demon thing to work?
It seems to have been changed several times now...