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    210 KB Usefull touhou thread Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:15 No.6030435  
    In light of the lousy yet another troll thread about touhou, I decided to make a touhou thread that isn't just an excuse to troll and add yet another shitty pointless thread to /tg/

    So in this thread
    we talk about Making rules for Danmaku, spellcard duels or space ships, I don't care, how do we make interesting patterns of death fun in PnP mechanics.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:17 No.6030456
    Complete derail to talk about touhou fanfiction in 3...2...1...
    >> sage Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:17 No.6030458
    nice try
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:18 No.6030474
         File1254050316.jpg-(155 KB, 492x385, Suwako Danmaku Circle.jpg)
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    The Duel Arcane is a means for mages to resolve conflict in a relatively fair, peaceful, orderly, sanctionable fashion. That is, it doesn't involve vulgar spells being tossed around rambunctiously, Abyss ripping into the Material world with paradox, and mages' brains and lungs being converted into mush or lava respectively. Many mages, however, find the Duel Arcane to be either a little too fair or simply overdone. They then turn to alternative types of arcane conflict, from Sanguine Duels to Shadow Chess, using modified versions of the Squaring the Circle spell, sometimes even through new spells altogether. One of these new, exciting options for mystic monomachies that has surged in popularity in recent times, particularly amongst the younger generations, is danmaku combat. Curtain fire duels. This method of thaumaturgic war, unlike the Duel Arcane, relies greatly on finesse, making it only attractive to those with lightning reflexes and acute bodily coordination.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:19 No.6030480
    Someone already worked out how to emulate most of the spellcards in 4e, at least, and then a simple sort of card system revolving around dice rolls.

    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:19 No.6030481
    Color Spray

    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:19 No.6030485
         File1254050374.jpg-(68 KB, 430x610, Yukari Danmaku.jpg)
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    Danmaku combat occurs through the same method as the Duel Arcane: the Squaring the Circle spell. A mage with Prime 2 and knowledge of the rules and procedures of danmaku combat may, using the aforementioned spell, offer a danmaku duel in place of or alongside the normal Duel Arcane. Both participants must agree to which type of battle shall commence; the following rules assume that danmaku combat is selected. The combatants are metaphysically whisked away into a magical space, where the duel commences. Any mage with an active Mage Sight spell may witness the colorful showdown of bullet hell between the two combatants.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:19 No.6030488
    I didn't know they made a traditional game about touhou!
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:20 No.6030495
    The closest to that would be Reimu's Fantasy Orb spell. And even that's more Magic Missile with pretty colours.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:21 No.6030497
         File1254050465.jpg-(437 KB, 1600x1200, Chen Reimu Danmaku.jpg)
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    Danmaku combat relies on four primary traits:
    • Aim is equal to the mage's Gnosis + Dexterity. It represents the sheer amount of bullets or other particles that the mage can create (Gnosis), along with how well she can weave, pattern, and launch them at the enemy (Dexterity).
    • Focus is equal to half of the mage's Gnosis (rounded down) + Defense. It is a combination of the supernal clarity and shielding that a willworker's raw power brings to bear (half of Gnosis), plus the mage's natural aptitude at dodging and maneuvering around projectiles being fired in her direction (Defense).
    • Lives are equal to the mage's Resolve + Composure. It is the amount of direct hits from bullets that a mage's metaphysical body of projected will (Willpower) may absorb. Unlike the Duel Arcane, a mage losing a Life in danmaku combat is not diminished of Willpower.
    • Spell Cards are comprised of each of the mage's individual arcana dots. A mage with Death 3, Matter 2, and Time 1, for example, has access to a Death 1 spell card, a Death 2 card, a Death 3 card, a Matter 1 card, a Matter 2 card, and a Time 1 card. These cards are the embodiments of the arcane understanding of the mage, used to fuel further power into the mage's curtain fire, and are altogether required to launch danmaku. After a spell card is activated and its effect takes place, its form disintegrates, unable to be used until the mage's next danmaku duel.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:22 No.6030512
         File1254050573.jpg-(763 KB, 1000x1250, Kogasa Danmaku Discs Midriff.jpg)
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    Danmaku combat relies on four primary traits:
    • Aim is equal to the mage's Gnosis + Dexterity. It represents the sheer amount of bullets or other particles that the mage can create (Gnosis), along with how well she can weave, pattern, and launch them at the enemy (Dexterity).
    • Focus is equal to half of the mage's Gnosis (rounded down) + Defense. It is a combination of the supernal clarity and shielding that a willworker's raw power brings to bear (half of Gnosis), plus the mage's natural aptitude at dodging and maneuvering around projectiles being fired in her direction (Defense).
    • Lives are equal to the mage's Resolve + Composure. It is the amount of direct hits from bullets that a mage's metaphysical body of projected will (Willpower) may absorb. Unlike the Duel Arcane, a mage losing a Life in danmaku combat is not diminished of Willpower.
    • Spell Cards are comprised of each of the mage's individual arcana dots. A mage with Death 3, Matter 2, and Time 1, for example, has access to a Death 1 spell card, a Death 2 card, a Death 3 card, a Matter 1 card, a Matter 2 card, and a Time 1 card. These cards are the embodiments of the arcane understanding of the mage, used to fuel further power into the mage's curtain fire, and are altogether required to launch danmaku. After a spell card is activated and its effect takes place, its form disintegrates, unable to be used until the mage's next danmaku duel.

    Danmaku rolls are the central rolling mechanic in this type of combat. An attacking combatant's dice pool for a given spell card declaration is as follows:
    • Attacker's Aim + (Spell Card Level × 2) contested by the defender's Focus. Successes on the defender's Focus roll subtract from the attacker's successes.
    • Any successes are considered lost Lives for the defender.
    • Willpower may not be used to add to this roll, and Willpower may not be used to increase Focus. Each mage's will is occupied with shaping and dodging danmaku.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:23 No.6030515

    Forget about the Danmaku. Modify Nobilis and make Gensokyo a hub of various domains. Assume laser spam is abstract representation of magical duels.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:24 No.6030528
         File1254050664.jpg-(499 KB, 1000x1200, Nue Danmaku Flandre.jpg)
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    When the two duelists are ready to initiate the battle, they simultaneously declare 1-dot spell cards, no higher, and launch their first barrage of curtain fire. Their danmaku rolls are made simultaneously, as each mage struggles to dodge the bullets of her enemy while attempting to connect with her own. Any lost Lives, the amount of times that each combatant was hit during the round, are noted down. Once the two mages' rolls have been made, should both still be active, the second round commences, wherein 2-dot spell cards and below are acceptable. The process repeats itself, moving on to the third round wherein 3-dot spell cards are allowed, the fourth for 4-dots spell cards, and the fifth onwards for 5-dot spell cards and any other spell cards the mage may possess.

    A combatant loses should she run out of spell cards, her opponent being declared the victor. If both mages run dry during the same round, the result of the duel is a tie. The more common method of defeat, however, is when a duelist loses all of her Lives. It is not uncommon for both contestants to lose all of their lives during one round. In such a case, the amount of successes by which each mage's maximum Lives was exceeded is compared. The duelist whose maximum Lives was exceeded the lesser amount is considered victorious. In the case of both mages' having had their maximum Lives exceeded by the same value, the battle is considered a tie.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:24 No.6030530
    what system are we talking about here? or is it home brew?
    I said FUN
    Not really what I meant, 4e card system is pretty cool, but it doesn't really fit classes or space ships very well, I understand that it would be pretty difficult for danmaku to make an interesting and fun mechanic in PnP by converting it in one piece, but thats why I made the thread, to talk about that and see if it can be done.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:24 No.6030531
    Whats with the ridiculous rolls? Its just a basic ranged attack, fluffed with lights.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:28 No.6030557
         File1254050889.jpg-(196 KB, 800x600, Koakuma Danmaku.jpg)
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    This is an extremely unpolished system which I had developed on a complete whim. It offers no strategy whatsoever other than "Declare 1st-level spell card, invoke 2nd-level spell card," and so on. Of course, this is not much worse than the original rules for the Duel Arcane, which produce even greater immense monotony. This game is simply not meant to handle danmaku combat, and as such, utilizing these rules is essentially asking for a shoddy minigame of dice rolling.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:29 No.6030570
    Actually not true. I can think of at least four distinct examples.

    Reimu's Fantasy Orb spell is basically a homing cluster-missile of PAIN.
    Marisa's Master Spark is a giant laser beam of doom.
    Reisen has one that can just break your brain, no physical attacks involved.
    Sakuya's World is STOP, HAMMER TIME.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:31 No.6030583
    Interestingly, they did. Touhou trolls will happily point out the 50-page PDF only RPG that has never been translated out of Moonrunes, or the CCGs no-one plays.
    They're false flags, but it sure doesn't stop trolls from trying to wave them in your face.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:31 No.6030591
    Ranged attack
    Ranged attack
    Ranged attack versus will defense
    Controller power.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:32 No.6030595
    Wonder if it would be possible to come up with ways to trap, other characters on a grid and the one who gets hit loses by making squares have varying levels of danger,

    The problem is that would require a deep level of balance, especially when it comes to designing rules for creating spells or space ship patterns since essentially, you shouldn't be allowed to create patterns that are undodgeable.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:33 No.6030606
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:36 No.6030629
    Note the sudden absence of the word "basic."

    Note how this is a nontrivial omission.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:37 No.6030640
    You are insisting that basic attacks need ridiculous numbers of complicated dice rolls to resolve. You seem to think that you imagination means tolerating a ton of mathletics to resolve simple tasks.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:42 No.6030681
    haha, no, No attack that can kill something instantly and irrevocably is undodgable,
    Reimus homing amulets don't automatically kill and end every damaku battle, she still has to dodge,
    I guess you don't play Reimu that often but all of marisa's cards aren't impossible either, Reimu's scenario in IN doesn't END because marisa mastersparks her to death.
    Sakuya's time stop isn't used in an impossible to dodge manner.
    again, I said i want this to be a fun mechanic, or no mechanic at all, the challenge is to see if its possible
    Anyone have any criticism for this idea? fundamentally flawed? any potential?
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:43 No.6030684

    Seems like Mage to me.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:43 No.6030686

    Burst, with effects.
    Blast, with on-hit effects.
    Ranged, with on-hit effects and little to no damage.
    Too many possible interpretations to decide on just one.

    None of these are
    >basic ranged attack, fluffed with lights

    You fail design.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:45 No.6030701
    I think you're misquoting... that first doesn't make sense.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:46 No.6030704
    >traditional games are not actually traditional games because they involve touhou.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:47 No.6030712
    I dare say I'm writing a Gensokyo campaign for 2nd edition BESM, if only because I'm familiar with the system. Players will be encouraged to make mid-level characters (be it youkai or maybe youkai hunters or other, depends on the groups preference) and then basically the game starts just before a new original 'incident'.

    Seeing as I don't want to necessitate the players spending too many points on making danmaku attacks, a rule exists where if a spell card duel is announced attacks gain the advantage 'stunning' for free, only in the context of spell card duels (meaning if they want one normally, they would have to make one).

    I prefer to see the spell card rules as something that has to be invoked by one side or the other. If you are in a conflict with someone and either side demands spell card rules it has to be accepted or you concede a loss. However not all people will want or need to resolve things with spell card rules so fights can happen, usually if both sides don't see the point in it and aren't going to use world shaking magic. Mostly thinking of weaker youkai who can be territorial like beast youkai.

    Plus the campaign is partly based on a slight break down of order due to the 'incident'.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:49 No.6030719
    yeah, your right, last one still stands though, good idea? it could be like reverse chess, you could have abilities that add hazards, and abilities that let you move more safely or bomb/clear certain hazards off the board,
    key balancing issues in my mind is since both characters, are probably going to die instantly or very quickly when they get hit, the power rating will be how much of the board they can take up in one spell.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:49 No.6030720

    Will they be able to kill everbody in the setting?
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:49 No.6030723
    There are at least two RPGs, at least two CCGs, and I've constructed four decks and played ten or so games of one of the CCGs, with at least four opponents I can remember.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:50 No.6030735
    Your greentext troll response demeans us both. I suggest that for the Moonrunes RPG or the CCGs to count as making touhou /tg/ related, that a Touhou Troll or two might actually discuss them instead of waving their existence in the face of anyone who points out that discussing the fanfiction touhou comics isn't actually related to Traditional Games.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:51 No.6030739
    The problem with mindgames is making them meaningful rather than random.

    The problem with trapping the board is the guy who has to keep track of everything, unless you have stuff templated out so well that you can just slap down an overlay.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:52 No.6030751

    But they are weeaboo and loli. Those are clearly the foundation tg was built upon.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:52 No.6030755
    This requirement has not been placed on any of the other settings that /tg/ employs in its games.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:54 No.6030771

    Of course, BESM isn't ideal for making danmaku attacks. Few systems are, though oddly the Japs have released their own fan system for that sort of thing.

    Still, with a bit of imagination the BEST system can still work. For one in BESM it's retardly easy to build a character that can dodge well, in some respects it's been a problem in previous games when skilled combat characters could dodge half the attacks coming their way quite naturally, but in a Touhou setting that is probably a good thing.

    The attacks themselves are easily represented through special attacks given qualities depending on the type of danmaku, Area of Effect for big wide spread patterns, rapid fire with inaccurate for fast un-aimed patterns.

    Like I said, not ideal, but it should work. I remember it being said that Mutants and Masterminds could probably work better then BESM for a Touhou game, but I'm not overly familiar with the system, I also remember it's only slightly harder to break and both are easy as hell to break anyway.

    Still, anyone running either system without paying attention to how player characters are built are asking for trouble.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:55 No.6030784
    thats a good point, I'm probably the only one who stole overheads from my school too,
    My big problem i see with it though is how to balance it so people can make their own cards,
    and by proxy, how long a match should last, it should obviously be quicker than the typical drudging on affair of D&D style combat, but if matches don't last more than 3-4 rounds, there wont be much thought or strategy in the moves, which is most likely where the key entertainment in the mechanic lies. trapping your foes.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:57 No.6030796
    nice strawman, the only people who mention the TRPG from japan in response to you are idiots who should be ignoring you and your derailan, Just FYI.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:58 No.6030800
    They are the foundation 4chan was built on, without question, but I would argue that the existence of specific-function boards within the greater 4chan suggests some partitioning of content is intended. Nobody drags this shit into /g/, for instance.

    Such as?
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)07:59 No.6030809
    >Such as?

    Off the top of my head?

    A Song of Ice and Fire.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:00 No.6030818

    Which has atleast over 9000 threads per day.
    And where is our iceandfirefag?
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:00 No.6030819
    take your bickering derailing bullshit to the troll thread please >>6030112
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:02 No.6030826

    No, you ruin tg for me, I try my best to do the same for you.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:04 No.6030842
    Utterly irrelevant. You have lost.

    Combinations of basic mechanics with increasing (nonlinear) cost for complementary effects would be my suggestion. It would be best to start with a few extremely basic patterns and try to get something workable and fun out of it. Only go into player customization once you have that down really well. Freedom ALWAYS makes things harder to balance.

    The RPG on 1d4chan looked like it used a grid and customizable powers. A shame it can't be referenced for ideas.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:04 No.6030850

    Maybe, it depends on when and who they try it against. Youkai are notoriously hard to kill, fairies can and will reincarnate. I'll have some basic (but not compulsory) templates on the kind of powers you get for being a youkai or a fairy.

    For example, youkai get regeneration to a extent and a weakness against divine attacks. Fairies get reincarnation because they are aspects of nature. Those templates tend to take up points though, they aren't free so reincarnation would take a good chunk of a fairies build seeing as it is really hard to stop.

    That aside, it's worth noting that while it's hard to kill others in Gensokyo normally, part of the incident involves a slight break down in the normal order of things.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:04 No.6030853
    I haven't seen a thread on that in at least a week. Are they really common during the day and never ever ever still going at night?

    This is a troll thread. See the OP? Touhou. It's how you can tell.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:08 No.6030884
    I'll keep that in mind the next time i see a porn dump or a discussion on 40k fluff
    in the meantime, I'm going to talk about actual traditional game designan.
    I've been putting down the idea of a typical wound/vitality system, where you have Damage and Pressure, Pressure represents your typical strain in trying to avoid something and damage is obvious, the 3 types of actions off the top of my head can be as simple as move shoot and use an item, with shots that are more direct, to ones that place damaging effects around the board, An ideal system would make these actions an extension of regular combat.

    Does anyone have any ideas for how to mark the grid for damage effects? I'm sure 4e fags have some ideas what with all the burst effects.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:09 No.6030890
    >I haven't seen a thread on that in at least a week.
    Frequency has nothing to do with board rules or relevance, criminal scum.

    Considering the role death plays in Gensokyo (not much of one) I wouldn't charge for reincarnation unless it could be used to overcome an otherwise difficult opponent.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:11 No.6030910
    If you have any faeries as PCs they are also effectively immortal and respawn in probably 1d4 days or less depending on strength and season, Any associated penalties are up to you though.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:15 No.6030934
    >Does anyone have any ideas for how to mark the grid for damage effects?

    Since the patterns will be algorithmically regular, it's easiest to draw the shape of the pattern by the power's description. When it becomes relevant, this can be referenced, and the only information that needs to be hidden is which power was used. Just for the sake of example: a checkerboard of diameter 9, including originator's square.

    If two powers may interfere with each other, it still works, up until the point where you have a power that stays on the field past one turn and into the next, and then the characters have moved and you've lost reference points... There isn't a good solution but marking each square, at that point.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:17 No.6030950
    >Frequency has nothing to do with board rules or relevance, criminal scum.
    It does, however, apply to tolerance. I don't think I've seen a Song of Ice and Fire thread in a long time, and the last one I did see was an announcement over the most recent casting choice. It was NEWS about a thing /tg/ would probably like. Touhou threads are, invariably, "Let's talk about the fanfiction and swap fanart like this is a Yahoo group!".
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:19 No.6030966

    No, death in Gensokyo is still death, it's just the reason it's hard to die in Gensokyo at the moment is the spell card system along with general agreements and enforcement of that system.

    Youkai aren't immune to death and if they die it really is a big thing, but killing one is hard. Same with humans, if they die, they die and go to the Yama. It's a pretty permanent thing unless you have some crazy get around (see Mokou and Kaguya).

    Be that as it may, the current Gensokyo has a non-lethal duelling system in place that has to be followed if one person demands it (depending on interpretation, you could even say any fight is a spell card duel in Gensokyo, but I don't like that). It's specifically written into the spell card system that you can't kill your opponent if they lose. Youkai get to act up, cause problems and use their power, humans get a easier way to deal with them and extra security. The system is enforced by the senior youkai and the Shrine Maiden who's life is directly attached to the fake of Gensokyo, so killing in Gensokyo requires convincing someone to throw away that safety harness and then avoiding any problem if your elders finding out.

    But death is still death. If players want reincarnation, they have to pay for that shit.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:21 No.6030985
    err, thats kind of the idea, to have powers that sometimes last for more than one turn, with the ultimate goal of trapping the enemy and wailing on them with direct shot attacks, the idea of which a more trapped character is extra vulnerable (unlike in say D&D)

    for example, lets say I have a shaped like an X, it covers # of squares out from my person and lasts for 2 turns, my party member casts a line attack like this # that could possibly trap the enemy but lasts for only 1 turn, I could then use my shot attack to damage before my partners next turn comes up, but now its the enemies turn to react, You could hypotheticaly use an AOE effect instead of a direct shot but since these attacks are going to be more expensive to use, the shot is the obvious choice.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:25 No.6031037
    I'm glad you admit to being an obsessive whiner, having given up any pretense that the board rules support your ignoble crusade. Good day.

    Yes, technically, you can die. But do you want it to be part of the GAME? That is the deciding factor in whether or not to include a cost to conditional immortality, and is the context in which I said that it does not play a large role.

    Then I'm quite certain there's no easy choice that can be used on a tabletop.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:27 No.6031048
    I guess I'd have to come up with SOME kind of specialized board,
    there was that design your own table top game website, and fuck, if 4e can be a popular board game it shouldn't be too much of a problem. I guess I'll just have to really get that job I'm trying out at tomorrow.
    but that means i would have to finance it.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:27 No.6031050

    Well yeah. I think the penalty from having to pay for reincarnation is penalty enough, it's a very expensive power which is convenient seeing as fairies are also supposed to be very weak compared to both humans and youkai. Systematically it makes sense they spend most their points on the ability to come back after any death and end up weaker for it.

    That said, some benefits I'll probably give people for free based on fluff. I don't agree on having to pay for certain things like immunity to age if you've taken the incorporeal power as a ghost or something. Powers like that cost enough as it is without having to spend more on obvious shit like that. Basically if it's not too important very minor things can be ignored.

    Everyone is given free Flight 1 though, after that if they want to refund the points for another travel power or in the case of a Marisa like character (original characters only) they could buy flight within a item of power.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:33 No.6031085
    I always considered it was more like the world put a few paltry points into having fairies embody various aspects of it. Yes Cirno
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:39 No.6031124

    Well ideally I wouldn't want the players to be pushing things so hard the chance they can die will come up, but players will be players and if they decide to find the biggest badest named character around and try and kill them while the 'incident' is going down then frankly immunity to death could become rather important.

    I understand where you are coming from, but as a GM I'm not ruling out the possibility of death if the players are persistent or stupid enough to chase after it. It's not a minor thing like asking for free immunity to age, if you are a youkai/fairy/god whatever then it makes sense and I'm not going to make them pay for it, but something like reincarnation is a very strong feature to have. Getting it for free would make death seem trivial and it really isn't, even in Gensokyo. Fairies are weak beings but for their playful childish nature they get to be forever young childish aspects of nature, immune to death no matter what they annoy. You pay for what you get and it makes sense that other players who aren't fairies get more build points to be stronger (because they didn't buy that power). Cirno and Lily White are exceptions in the fairy race. Most are terribly weak, defeated in a single hit. Cirno is actually right when she says she's the strongest because she really is the strongest fairy in Gensokyo. Lily gets to be strong during her duty of announcing Spring due to some boost from nature.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:39 No.6031126
    4e doesn't have complex shapes--it doesn't even have cones, thanks to its non-Euclidean geometry. (I houseruled it 3.5 geometry, but that's just my campaigns.) It also doesn't have too many effects that persist in an area and aren't centered on a target. There are some, yes, but a typical game won't see many of them. You're looking at something that's necessarily a lot harder, here.

    Feature creep, man. Be wary of it. Start small. Assign costs to things that you know will MATTER. Never charge a player for something that won't help them overcome the challenges of a campaign. Will living forever give them an alternative method to victory, and one that's at all worth using? Then it costs them, but only then.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:41 No.6031139
    >thanks to its non-Euclidean geometry
    4e PCs are very bored Elder Gods putzing around.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:51 No.6031215
    god brainstorming right now on a board, just designing one to do some of the things I need is going to be pretty difficult, certainly there are some easy ways of going about it, but I don't want to make it too tedious on the players, I could easily throw in a dry erase board i and some markers i guess, the main problem with those is its always been difficult to keep things neat, but while a tricked out board would be pretty, it probably wouldn't be very useful for poor gamers like me who don't have time or money to order complicated boards with pegs that only have application to one or two games.

    le sigh
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:51 No.6031218
    I think you mean to say that worlds 4e is used in were made by bored elder gods. It does apply to everyone, monsters included.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:51 No.6031219

    I raise you a circle.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:52 No.6031223
    Fuck cones, fuck spheres.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:52 No.6031227
    Legos, man.

    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:56 No.6031256
    legos wouldn't be really less tedious than my idea.
    the problem is player position sometimes matters so you cant just print thinks on overheads or they'll slide around, you'll eather need to individually place transparent slides ontop of little wells or place colored pegs in holes adjacent to the players position marker, each individually to represent areas of danger, which need to be applied and removed, possibly anywhere from each turn to remembered 4 turns later when the spell dissipates.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)08:58 No.6031271
    Other than the fact that legos don't slide even when dropped haphazardly, yes, that is what you will have to do. Other than a complex system of color coding, I cannot even imagine a scenario that would remove this bookkeeping.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)09:02 No.6031303
    how about the fact that again, with a dry erase board with some permanent black grid can make this alot less painful, got a line spell? drawing a big X on a board in 3 seconds is easier than painstakingly placing pegs or slides into wells or fucking around with legos ( I can already hear pieces flying everywhere and pass me the damn removing piece, oops i dropped it )
    also, neither of my ideas have sliding problems, I mentioned an idea that would have sliding problems to show that it was rejected.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)09:07 No.6031338
    >pass me the damn removing piece
    No, no, don't actually ATTACH effect markers. The fact that they're small pieces sitting at an angle between the studs is enough to keep them in place. The same is true when placing larger pieces of any crafted shape. I use legos when I play 4e, so I know that this works from experience.

    A whiteboard can work but offers no distinct advantages. Yes, you can draw quickly, but overlapping is a right pain and erasing is actually more difficult. The main problem, that of determining when to remove an effect when there are many on the board, remains. That is what I can see no neat solution for.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)09:10 No.6031360
    this is also not even including how to configure rules to handle things like overlaping and such =/ damnit, where are my holograms!
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)09:13 No.6031382
    A set of colored markers could feasibly handle a good deal of overlap, but erasing becomes progressively more difficult. This is fixed more easily by 3-dimensional markers.

    Timing remains a problem. One solution is to keep a "round counter" and mark each effect (in some fashion) with the number of the round on which it will end.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)09:17 No.6031420
    already planned too, but i was more referring to the fact that as in any TRPG, your going to have more than one player fighting typically, so your combined effects start to matter, should you be able to trap yourself? should friendly fire become a big problem as you decide how you're going to handle other peoples spells in relation to each other, the easy answer is no, but It would make the player a little more reluctant to just gun everything down 5 minute work day style. I guess you cant be effected by your own spells as a rule, otherwise radial effects are too suicidal.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)09:20 No.6031444
    3.5 did this quite nicely with Firestorm, Ice Storm, and such Pristmatic Fog.

    But that's not important now.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)09:23 No.6031465
    In the two games (IN and SA) where you work with a partner, there is no concern over this. In the two fight where you face multiple opponents (Prismrivers and Hourai Elixir) your opponents do not hit each other, even though you can attack them all equally and simultaneously.

    Characters shouldn't generally be forced into situations where they have to save their guns for another fight. Recharging is the way to go. Things should feel dynamic--cinematic, even.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)09:27 No.6031494
    but those games dont represent the feel of this, its more like a game of touhou 9 or 3 with everyone on the same field,

    I understand your points though, but how would letting players blow all their cards super quickly and at once be dynamic, cinematic or even fun? it seems like if you did that it would trivialize placement importance and the patterns altogether.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)09:33 No.6031524
    Don't want them to blow their cards immediately? Give a charge-up delay. Give a specified order of declaration. Make cards situational. Have cards build on normal attack and/or other cards. You are asking for the meat of the tactics.
    >> Anonymous 09/27/09(Sun)09:34 No.6031529
    ... you know, this isn't half bad. I might use it in the next Mage chronicle I ST.

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