“The northern port of Tashz, Azar, has declared itself indepenedent. Undoubtedly someone is backing the Vizier Sannek, he is ambitious enough, but far too cowardly to have done this on his own-”

“You know him?” you ask, interested.

“I have met him. I would not say, nor would I want to, that I know him. His appearances at the court... did not engender a good opinion of him.” Asha says, choosing her words.

“I see. I can understand that, carry on.”

“Something else on the subject, the blues occupying the creeping desert, some of them have orderd that no soldiers may cross their territory. As they are fond of oasises in the desert, it will make it difficult for the sultan to reclaim it.”

“Intruiging. Anything from elsewhere?” you ask, steering her away from her homeland. Ideally, that wasn't all she focused on.

“Indeed. The city-state of Beren was attacked by a dragon, a red. She has proclaimed herself Queen, and so far, beyond excising a tax on the trade roads, has done little. I doubt it will last more than a year or two.”

“Really? Why?” you ask. Partially just to see what her opinion is, partially out of interest in the subject.

“It happens frequently. Well, occasionally; every hundred years or so, some dragon decides to declare itself a ruler. Usually only lasts a few years; other chromatic dragons tend to flock around like scavengers, and all to many of them are, for all their power, rather short sighted and of shorter attention spans than one might expect for such a long-lived being. Reds tend to be the worst, in that regard; she'll get bored, change things too much, and eventually get at the very least evicted by adventurers or something. Happened to Tashz, a century back.” Asha recounts. Obviously she's a little better learned than you thought, at least in regards to history.

“Oh really?”

“Yes. A blue, Shazmaarnken declared himself Sultan. The sultan at the time, my... great-great-grandfather? Might be an extra great, acceded, and took the position of the blue's right hand. Twenty, twenty five years later, the battlemage Ibn-Tazim, and some other adventurers drove Shazmaarnken off. Ibn-Tazim was married off to the sultan's daughter, and his companions made nobility. Almost routine, though probably not at the time. I doubt it will last. Finally, the port of Amtar has raised their tariffs to finance their latest defences. More attacks from below, drow and duregar. Nothing new. Freeport might experience a minor upswing in trade, but doubtful.”

“Thank you, Asha, you've done well.” you praise her, taking the time to consider the data and file it away.

[Actions?]

Motherfucking dragon quest all up in here.

>>12570621
Whoops, had the name on.

Send her to buy a scroll of non-detection and scout the lighthouse, impressing upon her the importance of finding any secret doors, magical items, ritual items, or other cult things. Also tell her she might want to survey the terrain around the lighthouse to look for secret entrances under the tower. Tell her to report back by tomorrow.

Also ask her if she wants a salary or something. I doubt she works for free, and though we have been feeding and housing her she might want some spending money.

>>12570617
Well, she's pretty impudent. A mere mortal passing judgement on great beings such as ourselves. She simply doesn't understand the intricate interplay of the draconic lifestyle, clearly.

Ask her if she can find anything else out about the red next time. Like how old it is, and it's name. I feel it could be interesting.

Was the sealord's ball tonight or soon?

Seconding sending Aisha to the lighthouse at soonest opportunity. We should also tell her to pay attention to the bricks, after we found some being smuggled. I've got a very nasty feeling that they are going to be important.

Alright. In the mean time we should find out if we're walking into a trap. We don't actually know a whole lot about Drac, and remember that even when Kazmiri was dead the cult was still able to get the guards to conveniently ignore their attack on the temple. I don't think he was the end of their influence within the city's official power structure, any number of the people attending could be on the cult's payroll, or part of the cult themselves, or indirectly controlled by the cult.

Some investigation is in order.

>>12570759
Five days. Plenty of time.

>>12570677
"Excellent work, Asha. Something more, though." Asha raises an eyebrow. "The reward for work done well-" you begin, before Asha cuts you off.

"Is more work, of course. We have that one at home, too. And I doubt we like it anymore than recipients here do." you chuckle ruefully in concession.

"I suppose, but this one is more important, not just personal interest. You've heard of the cult this town is having a... chronic problem with?"

"Indeed. I can hardly help having heard of it, you are being hailed as the hero for defeating it twice."

"I wish. I need you to investigate the lighthouse. The one that's almost finished. Secret doors, passages, extra entrances, ritual items. The research of Thuron, Arman, and Cygnis leads me to fear that it might be centric to whatever they plan. I would like to inconvenience them, if at all possible." you explain, and Asha smiles at the understatement. "Oh, and the bricks. I think their interests might involve the bricks somehow; I found some being smuggled from their first temple..."

"Very well. I shall see what I can do. Time does not matter?"

"As soon as possible is all that does. I would recommended night, partially as it is more likely to be deserted and partially because they are more likely to take action at that time. Also, do you require funds? I haven't been paying you, but you have been quite competent help. I'd like to... reward? No, recompense, I guess, is closer. But anyway, I feel I owe you something for your services."

"I... funds would be quite useful, I concede. Perhaps a few hundred silver a week?"

[haggle?]

>>12570784
Kazmiri wasn't actually a cultist. He was clean and trying to take them down. We just thought he was, and then set him up as one after the fact to boost our own cred.

>>12570791
Quite expensive. Like, extremely expensive. That's almost 1000 gold a year. Admittedly she earns large amounts from assassinations, but we're also providing her room, board, and protection/backing.

100 silver a week is still 520 gold a year, and she gets to live in a fucking mansion and do virtually anything she pleases as our enforcer.

>>12570791

Offer her 75% of what she asks, but give her access to most of our magical weapons for her missions. Not the dragonslaying sword.

I'm so happy I can finally participate, I usually miss these threads. They make for a great read in the archive though, so hats off, Writer Dude.

Concerning the bricks, the high-priest said that the ritual would be easier with parts of the original summon, perhaps the bricks are infused with what was summoned, or were a part of the original ritual locale.

>>12570791
We're giving her room and board, so maybe start out at 100 silver a week? Hopefully we'll be able to manipulate her into being more loyal to us before that adds up to be too much.

Other people's thoughts?

>>12570840
That's a good idea. Telling her she gets to borrow magical gear from an "armory" we have for her needs will likely get her to settle for less too.

Oh man my inner Jew is kicking in hard.

400 silver/week, plus access to our armory and whatever we've got that she could use on her missions. Room and board in a nice mansion like our own should surely reduce the cash she needs.

If she can provide us with a list of things that she needs regularly for her job, and they total to 1000 silver/week, then it's OK.

>>12571095
We, uh, can't possibly afford that over the long term unless we get some serious trading ventures set up SOON.

If she's not against a little partner work as well, we could our kobolds wait for her to clear the target and then loot the place.

Kobold heists. Heh. Wonder how much we could grab before there's a crackdown on the little lizards.

"A tad expensive for me. I'm not one of the Merchant Princes." you say, backing up somewhat. "Perhaps a hundred... or eighty, even, silver a week and... Access to what magical items I can spare you, should you need them?"

"Hmm.... Make it a hundred and twenty."

"A hundred and twenty? I repeat, you're being rather steep. Should room and board count for something? You are, after all, living in a small manor, and I'm happy to leave you to your own devices most of the time. Perhaps... Oh, eighty five?"

"Ninety five."

"Ninety."

"If I must.", Asha agrees, sounding not as reluctant as her words might indicate. "Very well."

"I'll of course bring the money the next time I'm out. A pleasure doing business with you." you agree, standing. You can see over her shoulder, where Scinnari is standing on the staircase, waiting and watching.


[Anything else, and then any specific instructions, or just tell Scinnari about the ball?]

>>12571095
We can't afford 400 per week. Including room, board, access to the armory, and the opportunity to request our (or Scinnari's) help on something for free, we should be able to bump it down to 100 per week.

And remember, so far she's only been doing investigative work for us. No actual killing. When she does, we'll boost her pay, but no need to pay her the full assassin rate yet. Plus, she can still take contracts of her own as long as she runs them by us first. After all, she's staying in our home and we would appreciate getting a heads up as to who she's killing, whether or not they're someone we actually like or not, and if we should be prepared for some sort of retaliation.

Sorry about the delay. Was forced to relocate to where I can plug in.

>>12571140
Can't think of anything.

>>12571140
We should be prepared for Scinnari being a bit pissed. About several things. Starting to pay Asha for one. Going and talking to Cygnis about the ball for another (if she figures that out, we shouldn't mention it otherwise).

>>12571200
What? Why would Scinnari be pissed about either of those things? They are both solid moves reinforcing our position. And if she DOES get pissed then we need to remind her that while we value her advice she belongs to us, not the other way around.

We're spending money, but our only income is loot from whenever we go out.

We should try to set up some kind of legitimate business so that we have a regular cash flow. Since Kazrimi is dead, see if we can get in on whatever he was doing.

Then again, one of our original objectives was to make the city more evil to spite Cygnis. Maybe we could introduce a drug or slave trade?

>>12571240
> Then again, one of our original objectives was to make the city more evil to spite Cygnis. Maybe we could introduce a drug or slave trade?

A bit late for that, they already exist in Freeport.

>>12571240
Drug trade could be pretty hurtful to the city if the entire populace gets addicted. Could be very very profitable, though. Still, if we are going to have an empire I don't think it should be founded on drugs. Slaves, hmmm. That's worth looking into. What's the general atmosphere regarding slavery?

>>12571269
Then we usurp whoever is in charge and take over.

This city will be ours, and so will the undercity.

>>12571240
Whoa whoa whoa whoa! Being evil for the sake of being evil!? I thought we agreed that was foolish and stupid. As Asha seems to think.

After all, it would be much better to engineer a profitable, 'good', and respectable city. Then pesky adventurers would have much less justification for attacking us. Eberron-style. We can be an evil monarch and still make it both illegal and evil to oppose us, if we're actually doing good. (all for our own profit, of course.)

I'm honestly surprised there isn't much reaction to the fact a female Red Dragon has made its presence known in the world.

>>12571299
We're not being evil for the sake of being evil, though. Slaves is pretty much what all humans are to us. Why beat around the bush? Plus we need some business ventures.

But yes, our empire should be sustaining, powerful, and wealthy. This likely means trade and magic will be involved. It also shouldn't be an "Evil empire, MUHAHAHAH!" so much as just a normal empire. There will be evil things in it, and good things too. We need a safe and secure realm for our little mortal workers, after all. An unhappy or unsafe empire is prone to rebellion, and that just won't do.

>>12571329
From us or from the humans? Not much we can do about it immediately, we're pretty busy. Plus we have time to see what she's up to.

If it's humans, well, there are probably already adventuring parties on the way to slay her.

>>12571329
It's way far away from us, and it's being chaotic stupid. We don't want to get involved with something that goes and proclaims rulership of a nation and does nothing but raise taxes for her bed. She's going to get herself hero'd.

Going by what I'm reading, not anything specific.
************************

"Scinnari, I'm glad your home. How did your ventures go?" you ask, following her upstairs.

"I spent time with Finn, and with his accountants and inferiors. I think I should shortly be able to take over his operation, and it's income. Something you would no doubt like... Though I was thinking of perhaps leaving Finn in charge, and merely making him split the proceeds. That might appeal to you, I thought; you could be the sinister, unknown presence, no actual identity, but... master of the area. I think I could impress upon Finn that my master was best paid, and if he wasn't, that Finn could be replaced." Scinnari relates. You ascend a few feet behind her, and appreciate the scenery.

"Excellent. As you may have heard, an actual solid income would be extremely useful... I'm not sure about letting him stay in charge. But it is an intriguing thought, and it might keep Cygnis from noticing I'm getting my claws dirty... Speaking of which, Cygnis is quite excited about this." you say, handing her the scroll tube. She examines it's silver decorations, before opening it, and reading the invitation.

"I... see. You told Cygnis of this?" Scinnari asks, a veiled edge to her tone. You deliberately ignore it, moving to the window.

"She knows the players here the best. It seemed wise, and, if she were going to throw a fit should I not invite her, I'd like to know so I can take that into account. " you say reasonably, looking out across the city. The Sealord's palace is the largest building in sight, five floors. About as tall as the temple of Alset's central domed roof.

"And was she going to?" Scinnari asks, again, with veiled threat. Sighing and annoyed, you turn to her.

>>12571569
"Scinnari. Get one thing straight. You are /mine/, not the other way around. Should I decide that, or even to take Asha instead, it's my decision. I will accept debate but not argument. Is that clear?"

"Of course, Lord, forgive your humble servant.." Scinnari replies, part sarcastic, part mocking. You keep your expression blank.

"Is. That. Clear?" Scinnari seems to realize the ice she has stumbled onto is cracking.

"Yes, lord. Apologies." she reiterates much more sincerely, bowing her head.

"To answer you question, I do not know. She seemed interested. I convinced her that you would be the best choice, and she agreed to research the event and those who will be attending. I do not believe she will be attending."

"I... see. I am sorry, lord." Scinnari reiterates, much more humbly.

"I should hope so..." you agree quietly.

[We have five days, is there anything we intend to do in the intervening time?]

>>12571329
>>12571541
My conclusion as well. We might have better luck with blues or greens than with reds. Chaotic-stupid-evil seems to be their alignment. Blues are at least lawful evil, and greens love them sum political machinations. It seems a bit excessive to expect to find a perfectly like-minded red, who also happens to be in our age category. (And, of course, a little weaker than us.)

>>12571579

scope out the political landscape, but nothing else i can think of.

>>12571579
Kazmiri is dead... I'm tempted to say see if we can find out what happened to those deeds we initially stole from his tower. Now that he's gone, it might not be bad to inherit some of his property.

>>12571623
I'm not sure possessing the deed makes you his heir. Also, I believe I mentioned that most of his property was being repossessed by the city and the Sealord.

>>12571643
Right. Forgot about repossession. It might be worth looking into regardless to see if the cult tried to grab them. We never found out what those other people we teamed up with wanted it for did we?

If the cult wanted the deeds to certain properties of his, it might be worth investigating.

Side question - if someone had dragon's blood, could they use any rituals/spells to directly influence/harm/control the dragon it came from if the dragon was still alive?

I'm trying to make a post, but I keep getting "part of your comment can't be posted."

There's nothing offensive in my text. Any special wordfilters I don't know about?

>>12571643
Speaking of business ventures, we have his signet ring. Perhaps we could write up some papers where his merchant companies are left in our name now that he's dead? He had a great many ships, I doubt the city is going to repossess all of those and the companies they work for.

>>12571579
Hah, excellent. I bet it's not too often that she gets outmaneuvered.

I forget who Finn is. Can you give me a rundown?

I'm not sure what to do with him though. We could let him stay and blackmail him long enough until we can effect a takeover with our own people. I think that's the best bet.

At the party, have Scinnari go into full social combat mode. contracts, information, everything.

We should probably look into acquiring human helpers, because right now all we have is Scinnari, Asha and a tribe of kobolds. Not good if we're going to be the lord of a city.

>>12571698
>>12571706

Now that's odd. These were my posts, and they were getting blocked in the same post. But I can post them separately?

The filter is buggy tonight.

>>12571698
I'm not too sure we outmaneuvered her so much as just relied on raw power to state where everything was positioned. Though it could perhaps be taken that way, I guess. We did get her pissy, humbled her, and then gave her what she wanted anyway. I suppose that both reinforces our authority and keeps her off balance and not objecting because we're doing what she wants anyway.

>>12571698
Finn is the guy who paid Asha to assassinate Lydon. Apparently she has done amazing things over there at his company. I think we should... investigate that in an assumed guise. Ideally while she is there. She can True See all she wants, but she won't even know we are polymorphed thanks to the ring we have.

With her holding out on us the other night and being so bold today, I think we need to see exactly what she is doing over there at Finn's. And elsewhere. We can polymorph multiple times, following her around.

>>12571716
Sorry, don't know what the problem is.

>>12571698
Finn is the moneylender Captain Lydon owed money to, and not a small amount. From Scinnari's reports, it seems he controls significant smuggling and other classic under-the-table ventures.


>>12571278
[Meaning to answer this but forgot]
Neutral. People don't tend to ask where slaves came from, nor do they enforce it, but they it's not frowned upon. Generally, slaves are either bought for very short uses (fighting for entertainment,) or bought and given an indentured position, close to slavery, but enough to usually keep them at their post. There is a special set of bounties usually out on escaped slaves.

>>12571706
That's a good idea. Maybe hire some servants. But it can wait until we have an income.

>>12571817
Hire on Cygnis' budget?

>>12571838
Bad idea, I don't want the people fixing our meals, cleaning our house, and guarding us while we sleep to be on someone else's payroll.

>>12571878
It's not like she has any reason to be suspicious of us. Well, except for our recent basement addition and Scinnari. That might get her worried to find out how, ah, friendly, we are.

Perhaps we could get her to give us the money so that we could hire them ourselves? That way 'we'd' be paying them.

I thought we were trying to limit ourselves on how much we spent of Cygnis' money? The less we spend, the less likely she'll look into what we're doing.

>>12571939
Maybe, I just am getting a bit wary of buying things on Cygnis's tab. The more we take from her, the more she'll expect. Plus, we're probably drawing directly from her hoard. That never puts a dragon in a good mood.

>>12571660
Probably. I mean, it'd work for humanoids too. Probably about the same. I wouldn't reccomend letting it happen to you.

#############
[Four days]
Cygnis arrives in the afternoon, the next day, with a small bundle of notes. You invite her in, and sit down to discuss them with her.

Sealord Drac.... Of course. Human, male, forty five, as far as Cygnis has been able to determine.

Cpt. Brock Wallace.... Male human, 55
Used to be an opponent of the lighthouse plan, but has long been quiet. Ill tempered, and seems to have trouble remembering certain details of his past.

Cpt. Arias Soderheim... male, half-elven. 105.
A bard, though he represents the interests of the elven pirates that use and have used Freeport in the past.

Cpt. Melkior Maegoran... male, human, 35.
Scion of an old merchant house of the city. Rose to his position shortly before the assassination of Anton Drac, after the assassination of his elder brother.

Captain Garth Varellion... Male, human, 45.
Got his position by being a friend of Sealord Drac. Sailed with Drac for many years.

"What's with the full title on Varellion?" you ask casually to Cygnis as you read the headers on her notes.

"He's an actual captain, as opposed to a 'the honorable captain-councilor'. The abbreviated are captains due to being council members. The full title is for those who are or were actual captains." Cygnis explains.

"Ah..."

Captain Hector Torian... male, human, 42.
Sailor since he was ten, and captain since he was eighteen. Respected captain, popular with most who know him.

Lady Elise Crossette
Leader of the opposition to the Sealord on the council. Often a voice of reason, and an excellent speaker. Her family has had a history of power in the city.

>>12572105
We should look into if any of these individuals close with the cultists that were in Arman's church. Or if they owned the buildings the cultists were working out of.

>>12572105
No age or marital status on Elise? Opposed to the current sealord? And her family has been historically powerful? Hmmm. Well, that's for the future. Assuming Scinnari hasn't already taken the territory of "wife" as her own little fiefdom.

I say go investigate Scinnari under an alias today. Disguise our magical items and buy new clothes. I think we can devote the whole day to tracking her and seeing what she is up to. It just wouldn't do to have her plotting against us without knowing about it.

Looks like Scinnari is getting a bit drunk on the power of manipulating mortals and bringing that confidence home.

>>12572105
Cpt. Dirwin Arnig, gnome, male, 175.
Elderly, his family have always been wealthy gemcutters, growing rich off the pirates of the city. He is the head of the Jewlers and Jemcutters Guild. Supporter of Lady Elise.

Captain Xavier Gordon, male human, 49
Privateer captain of the Bloody Sea. Representing pirates and privateers who call Freeport home, and is on the second year of his three-year term. Weak supporter of Lady Elise.

"His seat is regulated by council law, and must belong to a privateer, as well as rotate out after three years. The others have no term limit." Cygnis explains as she watches you skim over her information on him.

Liam Blackhammer, human, male, 40.
Blacksmith, violent opponent of the Lighthouse project, and [seen as] champion of the common man on the council. Naturally aligned with Lady Elise.

Sister Gwendolyn, female, human, ~40
Priestess of Osprem, [a] goddess of the sea. Drac opposed her nomination several years ago, but could not combat the weight of tradition supporting her. (There has been a representative of Osprem on the council for almost a hundred and fifty years) Supports Lady Elise.

Captain Marcus Roberts, male, human, ~50
Used to support the Sealord, but has recently slowly shifted sides. A frequent traveller, often spends time travelling the mainland, acting as an ambassador of sorts for Freeport. Reputed to have an impressive spy network.

Petra Fricke, female, human, 35.
Head of the guild of craftsmen, and a extremely capable sculptor. Initially a supporter of the lighthouse, has changed sides as the harms of it become apparent on the city. Aligned with Lady Elise, as of now.

And of course, Lydon... 50
His nomination is expected to be confirmed at the ball, and there is not enough information to judge who he will align himself with. Has a gambling problem, and owes quite a bit of gold. Was and has been a pirate, but at the moment is making an effort to open a legitimate merchant business.

>>12572159
Sorry. 55, and unmarried.


[/infodump]. Sorry, people, finally done.

>>12572295
>has changed sides as the harms of it become apparent on the city
Could you go into this a bit more? What harms have become apparent, exactly?

>>12572326
Second, I'd like more detail on the whole lighthouse thing and why it's known as a folly. One would think a lighthouse important in a trading port.

Interesting. Most of the council seems to support Elise at this point. This party will be very interesting in seeing who approaches us for support.

What's Cygnis' view on the power struggle in the council?

>>12572316
Well, if she's human then that probably means no children for her at that age.

>>12572353
"Should I assume that the unlabeled ones support the Sealord?" you ask, still skimming through some of the papers.

"Yes. As did Kazmiri, before he died. Not that that got him anywhere, the Sealord has ordered his name stricken from the records, and, as you know, he has been denounced as a traitor. however, I think that with Lydon on his side, he will still control the council." Cygnis states.

"Lydon? You have him listed here as 'unknown'."

"Yes. But I do not think Drac would allow Lydon's nomination to win through if he didn't think he could control him. I think the time may come to replace the Sealord... he has been most incompetent in combating the cult, and most negligent in caring for the city." Cygnis muses.

"Do you think it's possible I will be accepted to the council, as a viable replacement and as the one who 'unmasked' Kazmiri?" you ask.

"It's possible... I'm not sure. Don't come across as a loud opponent of Drac, and it's possible. It would be nice..." Cygnis says after some thought. Nice, you can agree with.

>>12572451
What are her thoughts about Elise being in power? Something she wants to avoid?

>>12572410

Indeed. And a bit too old for us to marry her and take over after her death.

I don't know, we might as well just attend it, and make all efforts we can to get Council'd. At that point, the lazy way to progress would be to abuse 'elf' to outlive everyone else, assume senior position, and eventually unveil ourselves as rightful overlord of the city.

But that sounds kind of boring. Perhaps there is something else?

>>12572495
Boring, perhaps, but very effective. Being an elf gives us a long time to wait without needing to change identities.

>>12572483
"Do you approve of this Lady Elise?" you ask, putting the papers down. Cygnis pauses before responding.

"Somewhat. I think she would be a good tool, if only because she is somewhat elderly. She is not the type to be easily manipulated or bought, but it would be a fairly simple matter to outlive her at this point, even getting her to set you up as the successor to her faction leadership, though I find that unlikely. Personally, I'm hoping the... chaos of whatever this cult intends will be sufficient to install you as Sealord; obviously in conflict with the ruling that a Sealord must be descended from Drake, but if we can paint Milton as a member of the cult, it would be easy to discredit that law sufficiently. And anyway, I'm not sure there are any other heirs to Drake." Cygnis finishes. A bit more cut-throat than you expected, but presumably, she doesn't think humanoid laws apply to her anymore than you think they apply to you...

[Anything more?]

>>12572562
That seems fine, really. On to the other task of the day, or as I like to call it: Scinstalking.

>>12572562
Anyone she thinks we should avoid getting involved in? And thus depending on her reasons, we aim to get involved in them outside the party and outside her notice.

>>12572562
>[Anything more?]
Yeah, I want more background on why this lighthouse is a bad thing for the city and how it's such a huge project that it's causing people to become political opponents of the city leader. You've been pretty vague on that thus far, so far as I recall.

>>12572627
Not especially. You'll have to interact with most of the people there, and while she doesn't approve of some, Xavier especially, from the slant of her writing, she has given you no orders. She seems to be relying on your motivation to succeed for her.
################

"Alright, thank you, Cygnis. I'll study these in preparation. But.. I'm a busy person you've made busier. If that is all, I must humbly beg your leave."

"Of course, Cibach. Thank you for your time." she says, smiling. You show her to the door, hold it open, and bow her out.

With that done, you go to greet Asha, who you saw arrive while you were talking to Cygnis. Her news is somewhat disturbing, but not terribly unexpected.

>>12572653
Nobody's been too interested. The overwhelming opinion, from what you gather, is that the Sealord is throwing good money after bad, and it's been a horrible drain on the city's economy. Needless expense, very little recompense, along with much graft.

>>12572808

"I found a pair of secret doors. They both lead from the second to the third floor, I think. I was unable to ascend; Guarded, I couldn't make it past even invisible. No exits, only the ascent. Further, it seems, none of the workers have been to any of the upper levels in recent memory. Only specific individuals are being allowed up. Finally... you mentioned the bricks..." Asha says, pulling out one, and placing it on the table. "What do you see?"

Picking it up, you examine it. Nothing of interest, as far as you can tell, clay and mold lines.

"Not much, I'm afraid. But there is something?" you say, handing it back. Wordlessly, Asha takes it, and walks over to the kitchen counter, where she slams the brick down on the edge. Instead of shattering, half of it shears off at the mold line, and she catches the other half, showing the center to you. The bound dragon that seems the symbol of the cult is revealed in the center, on both sides of the brick.

"I see. Thank you, Asha, you have done excellently. Further, I deposited your payment upstairs, you have been an excellent.. compatriot." you finish, looking for a word that would not provoke her pride. She doesn't know what you are, and you doubt she would appreciate being called your servant without a significant reappraisal of status.

>>12572839
>from what you gather
from what you've gathered. Sorry.

>>12572839
Great. Looks like this will be our big encounter with the cult then since they likely have some big ritual planned in the lighthouse.

Hmm. I can't really think of anything to do right now other than prepare for the party. And by prepare, I mean assume we're going into combat. Did Asha notice any place in the tower where we could stash some items that wouldn't be noticed?

Wonderful, so it's an enormous trap. Let's look at those plans for the lighthouse we found and see what the layout of the upper floors looks like.

>>12572839
Well, that's ominous. If the very bricks of the lighthouse are marked with that symbol... I'd guess that it would make a fantastic ritual site for the cult. A lighthouse is a beacon, after all; a wild guess would say that they're making it a metaphorical beacon to draw in their god.

We need to speak to the snakeman priest about this. He'll be able to tell us if the wild speculation I just made above would actually work.

And for future reference, "agent" is a fairly respectful term for one who goes out and does our bidding in the world. And considering that we're explicitly paying her to work for us, "compatriot" is hardly appropriate- that would put her on equal standing.

>>12572839
I've been interested, I just assumed we would hear about it. It's obviously a big issue and we need to be informed about it.

>>12572917
I personally don't trust any snakeman.

>>12572917

We should go get Cygnis too. As loathe as I am to get her involved, she is our best ally against the cult. Plus, having her in the room with not-Thuron will unnerve her enough that we might be able to get away with manipulating her a bit more.

We should hurry to catch up with her.

>>12573069
I don't think we should tip our hand about this until we've assessed all options. We still have four days.

Alright, just to make sure I'm being clear, here, the 'Lighthouse ball' is being held in the Sealord's palace to celebrate the Lighthouse's completion. Not IN the lighthouse.
#####
>>12572903
Seeing as Kazmiri was overseeing the construction effort, (if only as a supervisor,) you decide to search through his papers. It takes forty five minutes, but you manage to locate some plans for the first two floors of the lighthouse, whether the final ones, you do not know. Disturbingly, there is a little note in the margin in Kazmiri's handwriting, which reads, "Where did the top floor plans get to? Ask Eidomon.".
[The next objective is to disguise ourselves and appraise Scinnari's handiwork? confirm, y/n, and any specific plans, should we do it. And 1d100]

>>12573092
Confirm. We should track her down using the collar and make sure that our magic items are disguised. Now, if this guy is an underworld type then we should probably look... less than scrupulous, but not like scum. Perhaps go to him as a recent arrival looking for work. If the opportunity presents maybe even approach Scinnari and hit on her a little, and ask if she has any jobs we could do, if it looks like she is someone we would normally approach to ask about these things. Play it cool and smart. If she gets suspicious we can morph into something else, let's have several sets of clothes nearby.

>>12573152
We could present ourselves as an assassin who heard he had been in the market through our connections. That might interest both him and Scinnari.

>>12573152

Erinyes have True Seeing. We can't actually disguise ourself from her.

>>12573092
Don't we have that book we found in Eidomon's house? The one with drawings of lighthouse plans and formulae in it?

>>12573196
Yeah we can, we have a ring that both prevents people from noticing we are polymorphed and makes us immune to poison.

Perhaps drop the fact that we're hunting a dragon? Nothing overt, just enough to make sure she hears it. Then lets see if she neglects to mention such a relevant tidbit....

If we want to go as an assassin or whatever, we'll need armaments, and not the stuff we've always worn around Scinnari.

Also, good on >>12573152 , we need to disguise our magical whatsits, otherwise she'll be able to recognize us by our items.

Go to the ball, while at the same time prepare to destroy the lighthouse. No need to do it, yet, but prepare all the same.

Who controls the actual construction and brick-molding?

>>12573152
>>12573177

If we want to track her down and see what she's up to we won't be able to mask our identity from her. Erinyes have True Seeing, she'll be able to spot us.

However, I do think that when just walking around we shouldn't be in Cibach form. That's a bit to noticeable now, we should save it for when we actually want to make a splash.

>>12573217
Ooooh, that's a good idea. Say that we've been searching for a dragon and have slain one before. Use our knowledge of draconic history to actually cite one that was recently slain. We'll have to mention it in passing though. Like "I came here originally hunting a dragon but lost the trail."

>>12573210
Yes, yes we do.

>>12573231
>>12573196
>>12573217
see
>>12573216

We took care of that problem a LONG time ago when we were dealing with a wizard who could have true seeing.

>>12573235
Then I think studying that would be best.

>>12573217
Yeah, we would probably do good to buy some wicked knives. Two for our belt, one up our sleeve, one in each of our boots. Gotta play the part.

Maybe have the ones on our belt be lightly enchanted. We could even keep this disguise up for a while if she actually buys into it. Spy on her, as it were. Assassins are notoriously hard to find so it wouldn't be suspicious.

What I'm getting here:

Prepare to destroy the lighthouse. Hardly requires preparation, unless we don't want to have to revert to do it. In that case, some blasting powder and/or heavy evocations would be good.

Follow Scinnari. Observe handiwork, test loyalty. As mentioned, we should probably invest in some other apparel, different magic items, and different armaments.

Inform Cygnis and/or Thuron/K'Staalo about the bricks and the lighthouse. Provide book/floor plans?

Also, just a question form my end, are we going to inform Scinnari and/or Cygnis of our new basement/cavern addition? I doubt Cygnis, at least yet, but I'm curious about Scinnari.

>>12573288
I honestly think this is a waste of time and gold at the moment. I think it'd be best used in other ways like thinking up of how to deal with the cult. We can check on our little demon when we don't have some uber doom cult on our hands.

>>12573295
I don't think we should tell either of them. It would immediately lead to the question of how did we construct it, and suddenly Scinnari knows about our kobold army. They have it guarded down there right now, doors from the sewers are trapped, and there is an alarm on the trapdoor to the basement. I think we're okay.

>>12573264
From what you can tell, armed with your knowledge of their tool, (the symbol bricks,), you believe they have had bricks placed at key locations, where the symbols can help focus a summoning or invocation of some sort. A few of the sketched forumlae now make more sense as magical rather than architectural, though you still do not understand it completely.

>>12573306
We have plenty of gold, and if it's for defeating the cult we can use Cygnis's funds. We don't care if she checks up on THOSE expenses.

>>12573295
I think we should tell Scinnari about the basement. Tell her we had it constructed while she was out.

Don't mention the cavern.

>>12573337
Can we pinpoint where those bricks are and, possibly, remove them?

>>12573306
Devil. Devil.

And, as for introducing Scinnari to it, perhaps we could claim that we discovered it? The trapdoor is camouflaged, so we can claim it must have been a forgotten addition to the house. You know old houses are full of things like that. [bluff]

Definitely no show to Cygnis. At least, until it's too late for her.

>>12573350
If we tell her about the basement we almost assuredly reveal the cavern to her due to a door being there. And if she knows about the cavern, she will know about the kobolds because there are kobold guards and workers down there.

We might as well tell her and show her.

>>12573378
>>12573372
Errr, right. No way we show any of this to cygnis.

>>12573359
Not unless we think we can get up there. According to Asha it seems well guarded at all times.

>>12573378
From what I remember, the kobolds do not like her. At least Jarek didn't. I think we shouldn't tell her. Part of me wants to set up the binding circle she was in in the basement and cover it up for now so we can trap her in the worst case scenario.

>>12573423
Now that I disapprove of.

I think we should show her the basement, but not the cavern.

If the lighthouse is one big cult ritual focus, and Drac is the center of the support for it...

Alright, long term plan:

We go to the ball. Present ourselves as a gentleman adventurer who is neutral on most issues (such as the lighthouse). Because we are relatively new to the city it would make some sense. The one thing we are very publicly not neutral about is the cult, which we are dead set on destroying, supposedly for the sake of the safety of Freeport. Hire adventurers, put out bounties, all of that. That should get us at least some popular support, as the cult is an issue that Drac is currently weak on.

After a while, approach the Anti-Drac faction, Lady Elise Crossette and company, with proof that ties the lighthouse, and thus Drac, to the cult. Hopefully this will win us influence in Elise's faction, as well as help destabilize Drac's position, helping pave the way for our rise.

If Scinnari finds out about the cavern and stuff later and gets pissy we can always point out that she hasn't exactly been forthcoming either. How can we trust her if we don't even know anything about her?

>>12573471
I can back that in the immediate term. Of course, that would mean our next action is to practice our ballroom dancing, get Scinnari a swee- sexy dress, and head off to the ball.

Am I missing anything?

>>12573471
The conflict between Elise and Drac will of course escalate to at least some violence, as these things tend to do. There will be some left over on both sides in all likelihood, and when the dust settles we can present ourselves as a neutral party who had nothing personal against the people in Drac's political camp, we just wanted to get rid of the cult influence in the city.

We might even be able to make a grab for the position of Sealord ourselves, as Cygnis mentioned that Drac's fall might discredit the Drake lineage, and even if it doesn't there might not be any of that lineage left after we off Drac. The position will be up for grabs, and if we play our cards right we may have a shot at it.

>>12573512
Devils? In my love interests?

It's more likely than you think.

>>12573524
Well, I figure there will inevitably be those claiming to be 'A long lost cousin' or descendant, and all that. Corpse and scavengers, and all that.

>>12573540
I think you mean 'as'. But I- Actually, I should probably stop and save that for the end of the thread, like last night.

>>12573471

If we present ourselves as the neutral newcomer who is open to being influenced that might cause both sides to move to try and get us on their side. We, of course, make it clear that we can only be bought with one thing, a more aggressive campaign against the cult. If we can get the other councilmen to fight the cult for us to win us over to their side, then that's a win for us.

>>12573576
Well, I say in because technically at this point we have a broad range of them. A devil, a princess, a gold dragon, and the possibility of a red dragon in the future.

>>12573576
Which is why we need to make sure that the Drac name becomes synonymous with "cult minion" in the mind of the people of Freeport.

>>12573600
I think another red dragon would be pretty low on the list. They're a bit too stupid evil to be useful. The problems we're already having with Scinnari getting uppity would be nothing compared to what we would have to deal with from another red dragon.

>>12573635
Nah, if she's younger then she'll basically just do what we say. Mostly. Dragons are smart and know an older dragon will stomp them into the ground.

>>12573600
Red dragon? Pssh. Being chaotic stupid, we don't want to get any of her on us. Nor would we want to help her reproduce. Do agree with the rest, though.


Needs a verdict, I suppose. Wait, be cautious, head to the ball, kiss ass like an ass kisser to get confirmed for council?

>>12573709
We still have days before the ball. We can stand to check up on our helltart and make preps for blowing up the lighthouse.

>>12573715
Alright, seizing on this as something to do.

Contemplating what you would need for a full new identity, you run into the problem Cygnis mentioned; it is somewhat expensive and tiresome.
>List precise disguise we're assembling here. Clothing is a given, but I need all the details you got on it.

Through Jarrik, however, you manage to purchase some blasting powder. Extremely expensive, and only possible due to your kobolds being capable smugglers, you are told they can have you four barrels in six days, at the cost of a hundred and forty five gold.

[y/n]

>>12573781
When will the lighthouse actually going to be operated? We are not too sure when this ritual going to happen. Getting the explosives sooner would be nice, but not at too high a price, unless we are damn sure ritual going to happen 7 days from now or we can't do anything else 'cept lighting the powder.

The ball is in 5 days, if I remember.
We buy the powder one way or another. It's just too good a toll to have handy.

>>12573781
Confirm. We should track her down using the collar and make sure that our magic items are disguised. Now, if this guy is an underworld type then we should probably look... less than scrupulous, but not like scum. Go to them as a recent arrival looking for work. Say we originally came here on contract hunting a dragon but our employer seems to have mysteriously died and we find ourselves in the market, and we heard that he was looking for someone of our skills. If the opportunity presents maybe even approach Scinnari and hit on her a little, and ask if she has any jobs we could do if it looks like she is someone we would normally approach to ask about these things. Play it cool and smart. If she gets suspicious we can morph into something else, let's have several sets of clothes nearby.

I once again suggest two boot knives, two regular enchanted daggers in our belt, and a knife up our sleeve. We should prepare spells that an assassin would use, like sleep, silent image, detect thoughts, prestidigitation, and mage hand. We should have our anti-poly detect ring on, but unobtrusively... perhaps even disguise it by putting a band around it or something. Same for the anti-scry amulet, though that's generic enough that she probably won't think twice about it.

Where are these basement and cavern? Under Cygnis' mansion, ruined temple, or kobold warehouse?

>>12573852
Ghost sound and expiditious retreat are good too.

What level spells can we cast?

>>12573884
Basement is under our house, cavern is even farther under our house. Full detail last thread.

>>12573850
It's T-4 days, I'm afraid, and the lighthouse, barring any unexpected incidents, is set to be officially 'finished' the morning two days after the ball.


>>12573852
Alright. I'll wait and see if a few more people want to add to that.

>>12573909
Maybe we can delay construction.

>>12573909
We should cause one of these "unexpected incidents."

Though we need to also make sure that it can't be traced back to us.

>>12573889
Your abilities have changed somewhat. You can still spend time studying and memorizing spells, but that has fallen out of your favor, as you realize there a some abilities you do not need to train to learn.

Sorcerer-style we know 4 level 0, 3 level 1, and 2 level 2.
[pick]

We can manifest in a 4-3-2 manner as well.

>>12573928
>>12573938
How?

>>12573896
Correct.

>>12573852
Did we want to incorporate the dragon-hunting bit into this, as some people mentioned?

> is set to be officially 'finished' the morning two days after the ball.
. . . Those quotation marks are just baiting us.
Best kobold sneaks to ruin the scene, or tell Asha to do it.

Take powder anyway.
Get kobolds to start excavating old temple and trapsmith can go trap-happy on the area.

A second identity is nice to have. Another adventurer, know in-and-out of dragon-tracking and dragon-slaying. Play it mercenary who knows the limit of his skills. And start forging a blood connection to the Drac line... A bastard by-blow of the older Drac?

>>12573928
>>12573938
>1+1=2
>click

Hey... we have Kazmiri's shipping manifest. Can we engage in some... uh, 'enlightened piracy', plunder ships carrying resources? We wouldn't even need a ship of our own, since we're a dragon. Perhaps we could Emrald-invisibility, fly out to ships, board, loot of golds and stuff, then return and sink them? Ought to be delightfully violent and satisfying. Allow our inner Red off the leash for a bit.

>>12574022
The dragon hunting is in there. So yeah.
>Say we originally came here on contract hunting a dragon but our employer seems to have mysteriously died and we find ourselves in the market

Probably also say that the dragon dropped off our radar anyway, and probably left town. Makes us seem ignorant.

>>12574022
> Did we want to incorporate the dragon-hunting bit into this, as some people mentioned?

I'm actually thinking not. If she actually is loyal, or wants to try to prove her loyalty, she might mistakenly try to off us. That would be awkward. And considering that she's actually quite competent, rather dangerous.

>>12574062
That should be fun, but we would need to make sure nobody saw us and there were no survivors.

>>12574068
I give her more credit than that. After all, we just said a dragon. We could have been hunting Cygnis. I don't see how she could possibly pass that up, especially after that last little berating.

>>12574022
Okay, how does this work? Do we have parallel sorcerer and wizard tracks going here? Or are our wizard spell slots transforming into sorcerer slots? Or are we adding our wizard slots to our sorcerer slots? Or are we able to learn as a wizard but cast as a sorcerer? Obviously that last one would be my favorite.

prestidigitation, arcane mark, mage hand, detect magic (read magic is known by all wizards/sorcs by default so we know that too)

True Strike, Magic Aura, and... Alarm?

Invisibility and... ???

This gives us the best spells for a dragon, IMO.

>>12574123
I'm trying to phase out the wizard-casting in favor of sorcerer-casting. My reading suggests that dragons are much more natural sorcerers than wizards. I'm trying to write it in as us discovering it, and deciding the natural, inherent way is much more engaging and rewarding that memorizing spells each time we want to cast them.

>>12574052
Not trying to bait you there. Just getting a bit tired, and 'inaugurated' slipped my mind.

>>12574077
Confirm?

>>12574091
>>12574063
>>12573852
Final confirmation? (I assume yes, but doublechecking on that dragon story. Our full disguise can be acquired for ~125 gold.)

>>12574195
Arcane Lock for the second second level spell, IMO. We want our treasure and doors and shit safe.

>>12574195
>>12574239
We can buy scrolls for Alarm and Arcane Lock, I suggest Identify and Rope Trick instead.

>>12574213
Yes, yes, confirm. Don't make the dragon story blatant, just use it as an explanation for why you're here. Shrug it off as "oh well" you know?

>>12574213
Wow, that's a good picture.

>>12574404
Yeah, it really is.

I can easily imagine the dragon pretty much just saying "MINE."

>>12574437
MINE.

>>12574301
Alright.
#############
<two days until the ball>

Finn's establishment is a large tavern/pub/gambling joint. The Perhaps that's how he got into the business in the first place. The sign outside has 'Tymora's Luck' painted on it in blue, with a depiction of a rainbow and cloud raining gold pieces.

Inside, it's even larger than it appeared, though you doubt magically. The wide open space and arcing roof is only filled with tables, the thin bar along the back wall, and gambling games. A square pit in the corner reminds you of where you purchased Jerrik. Currently, particularly foolhardy and/or inebriated individuals are being allowed to descend into the pit to fight a bear chained to a spike in the corner. Rudimentary armaments are allowed, mostly a knife and or club. Several broken bodies lie bleeding out, obviously somewhat fresh. The bear is somewhat worse for the wear, but still going strong.

>>12574480
Who is obviously Finn himself is in the adjacent back corner, on a raised dais. Remeniscent of a kings throne, he surveys the room from what he no doubt thinks to be an elegant chair. Despite the foppish impression you get from him, you also get something more subtle, telling you that someone this obviously a pushover would no longer be around if it was the case. His appearance backs that up, somewhat. Not large, he does have his share of scars, and looks to have a wiry strength and speed to him.

Around Finn is a small court of followers and minions; a dwarf, plaited beard and a... kilt? Obviously a scribe, from the books and quills he has piled around him. Accountant, perhaps. Sitting next to Finn is a winged elf who looks somewhat familiar, though her wings are white, and her face far more angular. A momentary check confirms that it's Scinnari.

A small pack of armed individuals is congregated around the bottom of his dais, and around the fight-pit. Obviously body guards, some, others muscle and mercenaries looking for work. The clientele on that side seems much rougher and better armed than the dockworkers and sailors over here.

>>12574404
>>12574437
>>12574470
Actually, I saved this picture a while back, but haven't used it because I guess I forgot what it looks like, or had the wrong impression. Now that I actually post it (at random), it seems just about perfect. Except for the dragon's head (We be red, reds much cooler.) and size, as I think we're a bit larger.

>>12574511
We're actually quite a bit larger if we're nearing Adult. Like, twice that size easy, maybe three times. Adults can swallow a man whole IIRC.

>>12574490
Alright. Scinnari has probably put some time and effort into getting where she is. We're here to scope things out, not screw them up. Tread carefully, cautiously, and above all else politely. If Scinnari really is acting in our interest the last thing we want to do is muck that up for her.

>>12574490
Well, I guess we buy a drink to observe the layout (as an assassin would do) and approach Finn after we've looked around for a bit. We want Scinnari to think we are competent after all, and a competent assassin cases the place first.

>>12574550
Yeah. I thought so, but wasn't certain... Here. Something sort of like this.

>>12574576
>>12574592
Buying a drink, choosing something rather dilute, so as not to risk effect your wits, you grab a the table nearest to both the bar and Finn's 'court', and wait. You watch as a few individuals proceed forward to address Finn. There's neither bowing nor scraping, but considering the setup Finn has, he hardly needs to reiterate his position. Most of them are short, though a few get longer, even involving an exchange of money. Some of those get escorted through a back door; it seems likely he has a back storehouse, or even whore house.

You notice yourself fuming whenever Finn and Scinnari speak. Even in this other form, and even though she has been telling you, to see it happen seems lie... theft.

You will yourself calm and avoid smoking though, and watch. Eventually an elf approaches, and, after a short conversation, both the elf and Finn leave through the back door, speaking in hushed tones. Scinnari remains behind, and some of the crowd disperses after Finn leaves. Those that don't seem a lot less watchful, too.

>>12574693
That can't be right, there is no such thing as a Small sized red dragon. They are born Medium sized, and adults are way bigger than wyrmlings.

I was under the impression adults were like this.

>>12574745
And Wyrms were more like this.

Maybe that previous one was a bit large though. I really just can't gauge it because the human is smooshed.

>>12574745
>>12574767
Great Wyrm reds are Colossal, so they are able to crush a mounted man with one of their toes is about how it works out, I think.

Sizes are here for reference: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.html

>>12574693
Hmmm. If we find out he has touched part of our horde I don't think there will be any saving him.

Approach and ask when Finn will be back, and say that we might have some business for him.

>>12574767
>>12574745
One, wyrmlings tend to be smaller. They hatch from eggs. There isn't some solid scale for that, but they start out small, three feet long, for instance. [picture related].
......
...
Well. Nevermind, you're right. Huh. I'm going to assume the just grow to medium size really quickly, or 'six feet long, including tail' is counted as medium. Probably both.

That said, I think your one notch up. Consider your first picture the 'Adult' area. We're 'young adult', though edging towards that.

TL;DR, huge, but not colossal. Not even gigantic but we're getting close to that. Another thirty years, twenty if we eat our vegetables and paladins.


No responses? Should we wrap up here for the night? If so, should we continue from here, or just skip to the ball?

>>12574693
I smell cooked meat in the future. Lets go see what we can find out now. We should probably try to get back there and speak with Finn and Scinnari will probably try to deal with us herself if she is usurping power.

>>12574910
I still personally think this isn't necessary but I'll go along with it and I say we should see what we can find out now. If we get caught by Scinnari, we could just claim we were making a back-up persona if we needed it.

>>12574891
Ask around. I'm guessing Scinnari made a bit of a splash if she's already got Finn's ear. See what the talk around the watering hole is regarding her.

>>12574891
Just sort of waiting for the plan that was said before to be put into motion. There will probably be stuff to do after we start talking to people but for now I've already said what I would want to say in the openers.

>>12574936
Actually, ask around before going up. That's a good idea and I didn't think of it.

>>12574891
Still look like about 3 or maybe even 4 people here. There's just not a lot to say since we already have the basic plan mapped out.

We uh, probably shouldn't just announce outright we are an assassin unless that's a profession people are normally open with. Just saying.

>>12574936
>>12574948
"Hey." you say, catching the attention of one of the people drifting away. You say nothing more, but slide a silver piece onto the table. He approaches.

"What can you tell me about the court over there?" you ask, making an effort to keep your communication short, to the point, and simple.

"Finn. Local boss. Sorta-official. Has work, often."

"Others?"

"Dwarf, that's Goscind. Money counter, miser, you know dwarves."

"No. I don't know dwarves." you correct. You want information, not generalities.

"Well, he's serious, hasn't been bought, and works for Finn. 'Bout all there is to him." the human replies, annoyed.

"And the lady?" you ask, sliding a second silver into view.

"Finn's latest woman. Real smart. Traveler. One of those winged elves. Ave-ree-ul, or something. Finn took her in, think he's working on making her his. Lets her handle some stuff, though. Takes her advice on some stuff, too. Smart."


You don't reply, but stand up, leaving the two silver on the table. You make your way forward, easing through the crowd. You are a person that dislikes physical confrontation, but is more than capable of dealing with any, should the need arise.

>Finn's latest woman. Real smart. Traveler. One of those winged elves. Ave-ree-ul, or something. Finn took her in, think he's working on making her his.

I wonder how long it takes for a man to burn to death, from the feet up.

>>12575091
>>12575121
Moving to the front of the ring around the absentee Finn's dais, you choose a likely looking subject, and ask, "You know when Finn is coming back?"

"Ten, twenty minutes, probably. Who're you?" the guard says.

"Looking for work." you finish shortly, turning to survey the seen from closer. The guard doesn't seem to take issue with that.

As you survey the scene, Scinnari stands up and approaches. Figuring it's a chance for the contact you were aiming for, you nod at her, acknowledging her approach but nothing more.

"Stevens. Who is the guest?" she asks, voice easily recognizable. The guard starts to answer, and you cut him off.

"Hunter. Looking for work. Heard people here might know who to talk to." you answer, still clipped and short.

"Indeed? And what do you hunt?" Scinnari asks.

"People. Monsters. A dragon, once or twice. Was tracking one here. Lost the trail."

"A claim few can make that lived. What's your name, 'hunter'?" Scinnari asks. A few people seem to have backed away from around you, first when you describe your profession', and when Scinnari approached. Now, beyond the guard next to you, who obviously thinks he could stop you, were you to try anything, (he couldn't,) and the disguised Scinnari in front of you, you are alone.

[response?]

>>12575151
Let's not green me this time. :D

Ladon. I hear Finn's the one I want, but you look to have him by the tackle so I 'spect you're plenty fine too. Can't blame him.

>>12575151
We don't do names without getting one in return, miss.

How about a nickname? Like Blackjack.

>>12575181
>>12575193
Either of these is fine. I do think we should ask her name after we give ours.

>>12575213
Then how about:
Ladon, they call me "Blackjack"

>>12575231
OK. I think that we should use it.

>>12575231
I don't know, that sounds kinda pompous for someone who for all intents and purposes appeared out of nowhere five minutes ago.

"Ladon. Blackjack too. I'm not particular. You got one?"

"I do. Jassa Hanadin. I am a traveler, stranded in Freeport for the time being. Finn put me up, and in return, I handle some of his business for him." Scinnari replies pleasantly. You keep a nonplussed expression on your face, and reply,

"And more, at a guess.". You don't think the guard quite figured out what you said, but he realizes you said something, and is suddenly attentive, watching 'Jassa' for a signal. You've been being quiet, though so she isn't forced to order you out. Instead, she laughs.

"Indeed, I confess.", she replies amiably, "Perhaps I could help you with something? No? Wise. Finn is not a man to offend. You are looking for contracts, though, you say?". You nod.

"I might have something for you, an...individual who has been late in payment. Extra payment if you can retrieve the money, but failing that, he's worth fifty gold dead, preferably unpleasantly, plus considerations, to Finn. I would be willing to double that, and perhaps add considerations of my own, should you accept."


"Payment afterwards?" you grunt, focused on maintaining character.

"As always."

"Doesn't hurt to accept then." you reply, interested in who Scinnari (or Jassa, should it be like that,) would pay extra for alive.

"Oh.... A clever one!" she replies in mock-astonishment. "Indeed it doesn't. The debtor is a priest to a local god... 'Brother Arman', in debt some three hundred gold, and interest. Surely something you can handle?"

"I can handle much more than that." you growl, hiding your rising anger under the guise of insulted pride.

"Indeed. But Finn insists that everyone start out... slowly, just as well."

>>12575302
Hmm. Well, we've been way past any usefulness Arman could provide for a long time now. Still, we should try to bring him in alive to get in good with Scinnari.

>>12575302
She did mention a while ago when we offered to reward her that she wanted to do something to Arman, though she never said what exactly. Hmmm. What is her beef with him anyway? Aside from the usual devil thing I mean.

>>12575323
>>12575324
I'd assume she just doesn't like priests, or finds him particularly obnoxious. But that's not important.

>Going behind our back.
>Ordering Arman's death after we have told her no.
>FINNRAAAAAA-

>>12575324
I haven't a clue. Well, whatever. Let's go to Arman in another form and clothes, say that "Your friend Cygnis told me to bring you some information about the cult. Get him alone, knock him out, go invisible and get out of there. Polymorph back and deliver him. Same day delivery, we're just that good.

>>12575341
We actually never told her no. We even implied quite strongly that we didn't care if he died or not. It's the going behind our back part, and possibly sleeping around that gets me.

Though the second part is excusable, we didn't actually tell her to refrain from using her charms to gain power. And she might not have if he's still "working" on making her his.

Still, sounds like we're going to have to set down some ground rules right before the ball.

>>12575348
No. Not until we know why.

>>12575358
It's actually somewhat realistic if you think about it. To find Cygnis he took out a 300 gold loan from this shady dude. But he's a poor priest and can't pay it back.

I always wondered where a rank and file clerk got 300 gold.

Alright. We shouldn't act on this. Not yet. I have a plan. This gives us a golden opportunity to confront Scinnari and force her to be more open about what her angle is.

We're going to need something for detect lies, plus something for dimensional anchor.

>>12575376
You're moving too fast broski. We can totally sacrifice Arman to get deeper into Scinnari's operation here. He's just a pawn to move.

We've got to make sure we stomp this out once and for all, so to set up the checkmate we've gotta throw a few pawns.

>>12575302
"His general description, places he hang out in. The basics so I don't waste yours and my time asking around."

Keep it general, Ladon don't know Arman, and vice versa. Come face to face, then knock him out if he cannot pay right away. Bring his unconscious ass back to the tavern openly. Don't give him to Finn yet. Tell him he has one night to scrounge up the coin. Or what we bring to Finn is not his living, breathing ass, next time.

Then let him go.

>>12575376
She can Greater Teleport at will. Not from plane to plane, though.

Also, isn't that like a seventh level spell? Expensive nothing, can we use a scroll so far above our level? (Not familiar with D&D)

I, for one, am interested in seeing Finn burn. Hands. Off. Our. Hoard.

>>12575388
Good call, she's not stupid. We should at least get basic info. Also we need to know a date when he should be delivered by, and where. I assume we don't just walk in the front door with his unconcious body.

I'm imagining something like this.

"So Scinnari, the other day I had the good fortune to find a man stalking after our 'friend' Brother Arman. Now at first I thought he was just some cult flunky, so imagine my surprise when, before he died, he fingered someone who sounded an awful lot like you. A winged elf working for Finn. But that would mean that you are working behind my back, and that couldn't possibly be the case. Because, if it were, if you were in fact continuing to hold things back from me, there would be consequences. Severe consequences."

>>12575409
Ugh. While that's a good idea if we want to save Arman, I don't see the point. We've almost kill him what, three times now? He's only been saved by our whims and fate. I think it's time he finally cashed in his chips in our game.

>>12575392
Greater Teleport is an Erinyes ability, it doesn't come from spell casting levels.

And that's what the dimensional anchor is for. It stops all teleporting, including greater teleport, not just plane hopping.

> I would be willing to double that, and perhaps add considerations of my own, should you accept.
> interested in who Scinnari (or Jassa, should it be like that,) would pay extra for alive.
Does this mean that Jassa/Sci offered extra to keep Arman alive or dead?

Note for the first visit, Ladon do it openly. The execution one, in stealth, of course.

Oh, can we use Locate Object at-will? Try doing it on his shoes. Generally the thing one keeps even if one changes clothes...

>>12575392
Yeah we can. But it would be hideously expensive, more than we have to spare.

>>12575418
It's not about saving Arman, it's about forcing Scinnari to stop hiding so much from us.

>>12575392
Dimensional Anchor is a fourth level spell.

>>12575432
Well yes, but we can do that much better when we know more of what she has going on here. Right now we just know guesswork. If we actually get deeper in and find out important things like FOR INSTANCE if she is willing to work with an assassin who was possibly hunting us without telling us, then we will have more to go on.

>>12575429
It's a 4th level spell, that's easily within our means. Though the detect lies one is significantly more important. We need to get her on the spot and question her about the things she's been holding back on.

>>12575441
Yeah, and it costs like 700 gold.

>>12575388
>>12575393
"Priest? What temple?" It's possible that there are more than one 'Brother Armans' in this city, but unlikely.

"Temple of Alset, god of knowledge. I don't know where he spends his time or lives. Further, it would be most unwise to do this discreetly." Scinnari-come-Jassa states. Ah. Right. Cygnis. She's warning you... subtly.

"Delivery?" you grunt out, irritation still in your voice, but true anger well hidden.

"You're creative. I'm sure you've got ideas."

"I'm want to know if there's a standard procedure." you reply, voice grating.

"None. Whatever brings him back. A dagger against the ribs as you guide your friend down the street, stuff him in a barrel for a delivery... whatever works. Should I assume, then, that you intend to bring him alive?"

"Maybe. Probably. Doesn't sound like much of a threat."

"Excellent. I hope I am foreseeing a profitable relationship... Ladon."

"Me too."

"Is there anything else I can do for you, then? Here, that is." Scinnari says, and you feel her use some of her glamour, trying to put the thought in your mind.

[Nothing else? leave? Then what?]

>>12575393
>>12575409
I'm suggesting the chance for Arman to borrow some more gold from someone else... Perhaps Cygnis, but no, that would sound crass, and he has his pride... Maybe Cybach? The elven adventurer probably has more gold than he knows to use, certainly, and he might be a kinder creditor than Finn...

Well, I hope he tries that instead of skipping town. If he skips town, Ladon or Cybach or a third persona we will use only for killing can gut that fish.

>>12575456
Let's snatch him tonight. Lure him out with information on the cult in another form, maybe? Tell him Cygnis sent us. It's nothing that a bit of digging won't reveal anyway, so it's realistic a skilled assassin could find it out. We could either club him or use that poison Scinnari got for us, but clubbing seems simpler.

Guys, please. I know it's tempting to snap on the girl right this second, but devils have very complex plots. We can't just stop at the first layer, we need to find out exactly what she is doing.

For all we know she might be setting up Lydon to get rid of him as a threat to us.

>>12575456
We should, in Cibach form, ask Brother Arman where he got the money to pay us to go looking for Cygnis came from. If he asks why, we can say that we heard through the grape vine that some creditor was looking to force him to pay up some money.

We should NOT turn him in. That will rile Cygnis up and potentially put her on the warpath against Finn and Scinnari, which is exactly what we don't want. We want her attention focused on the cult. Plus, we might want to take over Finn's operation at some point, and if it's been trashed by a raging gold dragon that might be difficult.

>>12575495
Do you mean Lydon, the captain, or Ladon, our persona?

Damn, we should have picked a better name.

>>12575499
But if Arman vanishes and shows up dead, well, clearly it was the cult's fault. Who else could be responsible?

Scinnari is not stupid enough to bring Cygnis down on her own head.

Personally, I'm against trying to turn Arman in. The cult is up to something, something big, and I think we should keep our resources (such as Cygnis) focused on them. This will distract her from helping us fight the cult.

>>12575512
Considering that unfortunate similarity, I'm willing to let us change it. Or never use it again, and replace it with Blackjack.

Do we have a verdict, or is more discussion necessary?

>>12575456
Get a barrel, empty it. Go find Arman as Ladon, corner him alone, ask for payment. If he cannot pay immediately, or hedges, knock him out, stuff him into barrel.

Bring it to an alleyway near Finn's place. Point it to him, then tell him he has one night to look for the coin. Keep an eye on his shoes for focus of Locate Object, suggest kindly, that there might be other people kinder than Finn that he can borrow from, threaten, then leave.

Go back to Cybach, do business, try keep minute attention to Locate Shoes. :D

>>12575512
Ooops, I meant Ladon our persona.

Let's just call him Blackjack.

>>12575520
It won't distract her though! For crying out loud! Remember that last time it was Arman getting kidnapped that truly got her in our clutches. This is a Gold opportunity!

>>12575518
If she simply wanted to kill Arman, then why ask for him alive? And if this is to get closer to Finn, why offer her own bounty instead of just reiterating Finn's deal? Something is rotten in Denmark.

>>12575533
That's not what we were sent to do. We have to earn her *trust* not get Arman to pay.

>>12575499
This too can work... Or combined with mine for better manipulation.

>>12575538
Exactly why we need to bring in Arman to see what it is. What if Scinnari is thinking of building up a dragonslaying posse? This is something we need to know.

We really should have pressed the issue of Brother Arman and what she wanted when she first brought it up.

Now, I think we need to use this as a lesson to her about not going behind our back or withholding information from us.

Guys, if we do this and don't do exactly what she wants then we just blew an entire persona.

Gone.

175 gold down the drain.

We are doing this to get into her operation and see what is up. We found out some very valuable stuff just from visiting. We need to get deeper before confronting her.

Guys.

Before we decide anything, I think we should do this:
> We should, in Cibach form, ask Brother Arman where he got the money to pay us to go looking for Cygnis came from. If he asks why, we can say that we heard through the grape vine that some creditor was looking to force him to pay up some money.

More information is ALWAYS a good thing.

>>12575541
Either way gets Jassa's trust. Not Scinnari's. Keep the distinction.

So long as we have an in on Finn, we can work our way to open Scin/Jass' workings there.

>>12575565
> More information is ALWAYS a good thing.

This. We can make our choice when we know more.

>>12575568
They are the same person, dude. She doesn't suddenly think about us differently depending on what form she is in. We need to prove that we are reliable and not just talk. This is an audition, a business interview. If we do well, we get more. If we fuck it up by, say, not bringing in Arman then it's all shot to hell.

Incidentally, we're archived. Don't forget to vote.

>>12575574
>>12575565
If word gets back that we visited Arman and asked these things immediately after Scinnari put out a bounty on his head... a bounty that one person knows about? I mean, really. Think about it guys.

>>12575565
I suggest go Ladon first, but bring him just NEAR Finn's place, then let him go with threat. Then change to Cybach, and find him when he is distraught.

>>12575594
So stupid I cannot even begin to comprehend. It's like the worst of all worlds. If we were trying to fuck up the plan as bad as possible, this is what we should do.

>>12575594
No. I don't even think we should bring him in at all, and even I think that's a bad idea. Going half way will piss off everyone with no gain.

You do know that at this point she can wriggle out of everything we know with a simple "I was trying to get Ladon killed by having him attack Arman since he was hunting you before, I knew Cygnis would be there to protect him. As for Finn, I haven't slept with him or anything, just teasing. And I would never go behind your back my lord."

BAM, everything explained and we don't have shit but suspicion.

>>12575579
Jassa's persona would have Finn's best intention at heart. Or so we would think.
Scinnari is ordered to get an in on Finn. Or so we would think.
I'm separating the intent of both, since this is pretty much deep immersion intrigue.

>>12575593
PS: We can always blame it on Jarrik's ingenuity. Sci hates his guts already. :D

Alright, no matter what we do, we shouldn't switch back and forth between Cibach and Blackjack too much. Remember, Scinnari is taking Arman ALIVE, so that means she might end up questioning him. So none of this "lure him somewhere as Cibach" stuff. That will tip Scinnari off.

>>12575629
She thinks Jarrik is dead or gone and has no idea about the kobolds. Y u do dis.

>>12575565
>>12575574


Arman is easy to find. Looking like Cibach Azal once more, you return to the temple, and find him in his office, translating and copying a text.

"Hello, Cibach, is there anything I can do for you?" he says, glancing up a nodding.

"Actually, I hope not.... But a few questions... how did you get the gold to hire me initially? And the time afterwards? I didn't think priests were very wealthy." you say, deciding to play this up. Testing in case he isn't who he claims to be.

"I... well, it somewhat embarrassing, but I borrowed money. It seemed a worthy cause, and I think Alset obviously approved; in the end I didn't have to pay it back, and returned it. There's some minor interest, but I managed to pay it back." Now that it occurs to you to look, he is looking a bit more haggard himself, and a little thinner, too.

"And the second time? Which you still haven't paid me for." you question, unsubtly reminding him of the important details.

"Ah.. well, you seemed to have gotten acclaim and fame, and all that, not to mention saving the temple. I was hoping you had.. well, Thuron had decided to reward you himself again; I returned it shortly afterwards, since you didn't come to collect it, and the interest was piling up." Arman admits sheepishly.


[thoughts?]

>>12575604
>>12575609
NOT in view of that crowd, of course!
We are told to collect, but not the time limit.

>>12575622
And to all that we can say "I don't buy it" and if we've gotten dimensional anchor and detect lies going we can threaten to eat her if she doesn't start telling the truth.

We can even throw in something to the effect of "You always were pushing me in the direction of being a more typical red. Do you know what a typical red does with beautiful women?" for irony's sake.

>>12575640
GREAT

FANTASTIC

WE JUST TIPPED OFF SCINNARI WHEN SHE QUESTIONS HIM

So much rage.

>>12575638
Truly? I missed that then.
But nevertheless, Cybach has stepped up to the plate. Moot with my idea now. :p

>>12575640
Info is always good. And again, that proves true.

It looks like this has less to do with Finn and more just to do with her. This is something on her own time, for her own reasons. Interesting.

>>12575660
And it's a good thing we didn't turn him in to Scinnari. This isn't about Finn, or her getting close to him or his operation. This is something to do with her own personal angle.

>>12575656
Okay, and this leads in four directions, let's think this out:

1. She's lying
1a. She keeps lying. We have no way to know because she's a devil and can play word games and fool lie detection spells. We have to eat her. Valuable asset lost.
1b. She tells the truth. We have no way to know if that was the whole truth and have to investigate her again ANYWAY, spending more time and money, and she is paranoid anyway. Valuable asset lost in everything but name.

2. She's telling the truth.
2a. She keeps telling the truth and we don't believe her. We eat her. Valuable asset lost.
2b. She keeps telling the truth and we let her go. She now feels threatened and makes plans to safeguard herself airtight. Valuable asset pretty much lost.

Acting now ends in nothing but BAD END.

>>12575660
There is an elegant solution.

Asha. We already have her out keeping her ear to the ground for us, (see top of thread), and it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that she found out about this, or remembered it. She is/was an assassin too, you know. Working for this very man.

OF course, that's provided she isn't just making it up, which seems possible. But even then, it's possible someone overheard our conversation...

>>12575693
Good to know, but would have had no impact on the final result of infiltrating her plots.

>>12575660
Not yet. No mention of creditors going after him from Cybach's lips.

>>12575660
> WE JUST TIPPED OFF SCINNARI WHEN SHE QUESTIONS HIM

So we don't let her. Turning him in isn't a done deal. If you haven't noticed there's still a good bit of debate over that. Your opinion =/= consensus.

>>12575660
Calm down. We have a thousand different ways of explaining how we knew.

>>12575708
>>12575712
Hmmm, that would work if it ever comes up. But really, why would she ask about if Cibach ever visited asking about his debts. I mean, really? I doubt that question will ever come up.

>>12575716
It's not just my opinion, there's at least one other dude agreeing with me.

>>12575735
> It's not just my opinion, there's at least one other dude agreeing with me.

Which again does not mean there is consensus.

>>12575743
It honestly doesn't look to me like the people who wish to Save the Armans will ever give an inch, so there's not going to be much debate. I understand he's an NPC and a contact, but the usefulness we can get from him alive is outweighed by the usefulness of knowing exactly what Scinnari is up to in my opinion.

Oh, another thing... Arman here hasn't paid us. Seriously. Hasn't paid us. I'm somewhat upset, he promised, didn't he? Don't ALL dragons want promises fulfilled ?(to them, at least.)

But then, I also want to fry Finn for touching our crown jewel, so don't mind me.

>>12575660
U Mad?

Seriously though, you're raging about nothing. Hell, it's a good thing we talked to him. Now we know slightly more about what she's up to. Which, you know, is the entire point of an investigation.

>>12575758
Now that you mention it, that's true.

Son of a bitch. And reading over what he said, he skimped out because we're all bigtime now, as if we didn't want the gold.

I was on the fence but we should totally turn him in now.

>>12575755
> It honestly doesn't look to me like the people who wish to Save the Armans will ever give an inch, so there's not going to be much debate.

Given the post here >>12575660
The same can be said of your side.

>>12575758
> Arman here hasn't paid us.

So? He's Cygnis' boy toy, and she's given us a budget, probably drawing from her own hoard.

I don't really have an issue with him not paying us considering (not)Thuron and Cygnis already have.

>>12575769
And thus a critical matter is brought to an impasse. We have to decide one way or another. As someone else said, half measures will just ruin the whole thing. We need to be decisive.

>>12575775
It wasn't Cygnis's debt, it was Arman's. A mere human welched on us.

>>12575767
I don't really think this is that big a deal. Think of it this way. Arman is to Cygnis what Scinnari is to us. A part of a hoard. Cygnis is already paying us, why should we care if the money comes from her, or from one of the coins in her hoard? It's not like these are people we're talking about, they're just humans.

>>12575792
You're thinking about it all wrong. Think of it more like this: What obligation do we have to give Arman the benefit of the doubt?

>>12575791
And we let that slide because it opened up the door to another dragon's hoard, something far more significant than the paltry funds that a mere human was able to cobble together.

Wow so much drama guys. Just knock the dude on the head stuff him in a barrel and take him to the girl. How hard is that?

>>12575660
Well, I'll just say that I consider this worth it for that excellent little comic. That said, chill out. No need to go all matter/antimatter on each other.

It's just about 02:00 where I am, let's get to a stopping point, and carry on on wednesday.

>>12575800
Yet that was still gold we were owed. Our gold. That could have been part of our horde or invested into making it bigger.

>>12575799
We're not giving him the benefit of the doubt, we're judging him to be a piece of a larger hoard that we already have a line in on. Really, I don't think we need to make as big a deal about this as we are doing. It's not like he has the money himself. He borrowed it. Why force him to borrow it again when we can just take over Finn's operation and take it directly from him? Cut out the middle man, don't get Arman (and by extension Cygnis) involved in this at all. That way we can keep this all under her radar. After all, she's probably going to try to shut him down if she starts actually paying attention to him. We don't want that.

>>12575816
You're missing the point. This human scum was going to give us gold and then didn't. The reasons don't matter in this case, but even if they did the reason he didn't was that "Well you already had plenty."

Really, can you think of any dragon that would fly with? Even Golds would find that to be an insult.

>>12575813
And Arman never really had it. He borrowed it, he doesn't have it anymore, and unless he borrows it again he probably won't in the future.

Seriously, let's stop wasting time wringing money out of penniless priests and go after the people who actually have money.

Finn and his operation. Or maybe the cult, those bastards always have tons and tons of loot.

>>12575811
I don't really know what stopping point we might have here. It seems like the next action is going to be the direct result of the argument we just had.

My vote goes towards bringing Arman into Finn's.

So far Arman has not mentioned needing help in coin. So part amicably, joke that Cybach is sad not getting paid twice, while we squelch the primitive draconian instinct to eat him for his failure to pay.

Then come back as Ladon... You decide whether to bring him up to Finn in a barrel straight away, or just make a threat and leave the barrel as a reminder.

>>12575847
>or just make a threat and leave the barrel as a reminder.

Regardless of the action we take, I still think this is a terrible idea. I would prefer either one or the other, none of this playing enforcer and trying to get him to pay back his supposed debt. The job was simple and totally not for that at all, either at face value or for the hidden motives we know about.

>>12575834
It's an insult. Sure. But I think getting Cygnis involved in this is a bad move. We've always been talking about not being just another stupid evil red. This is a time to put that in action. Yes, we could give in to our pride and turn in Arman to Scinnari or do something else unpleasant to him. Problem is Cygnis isn't exactly going to take that lying down. Taking him in to Scinnari creates the massive risk that Cygnis might pursue him, right to Finn and Scinnari. We want that operation. It's much more profitable than what we can get from Arman. So I think it's time to make the smart choice, not the lolevil choice.

>>12575856
Eh. Your opinion versus my opinion, I'll leave it at that. Looks like most are going for blood in true draconian fashion though...

>>12575847
> or just make a threat and leave the barrel as a reminder.

I'm one of the "don't turn him in" people. I think this a terrible plan.

I'm pretty sure the "turn him in" people agree with me on this, despite all our other differences.

Seriously, it accomplishes nothing, while risking pissing a whole lot of people off. Cygnis, Scinnari, everyone.

Alright. A proposal:

As Blackjack, (being very careful,) jump Arman on the way home. Pretend we're buddies (helpin' my drunk friend home, maybe slosh some booze on him,), and, his arm over our shoulder, our knife against his ribs, lead him back to Finns. Or the barrel. (get a cart/wheelbarrow, too,).

Turn him in. We're fast, we're efficient, we're a hunter; we'll bring it back live or dead, but we're no collection agency. Speed should make Scinnari take us seriously, (if necessary drop 'hunting dragons/hunted dragons' again,), and if she doesn't warn us, that will be a significant signal.

Criticism?

>>12575865
It's not lolevil to subtly manipulate events so that we reveal the cunning plans of a devilish consort. There is absolutely nothing lolevil about giving Arman to her. I honestly don't see what the big deal here is. As already said the Cygnis argument holds no water:

1. It will remove a pillar of support and make her more dependent on Cibach Azal.
2. Scinnari is not stupid and even if she somehow is and leads Cygnis right to his door then we have no connections to it.
3. If Arman vanishes it will almost assuredly be the Cult suspected, not debt collectors. Why? He has no debts!
4. When Arman does vanish or turn up dead, who has been the go-to man all this time? Us. More power.

>>12575867
You opinion involves ignoring the fact that this isn't even about the debt. Seriously, did you miss that part? This is Scinnari pursuing her own agenda for her own reasons, it doesn't have anything to do with Finn or the money that Arman supposedly (and doesn't actually) owe him.

There is literally no reason to play the mean mafia enforcer.

>>12575877
We were never meant to be a collection agency. All we were supposed to do was bring him in, not collect the debt. I approve of doing this, maybe even this plan. The issue some people here have with it is bringing Arman in at all. I don't understand why.

>>12575885
Preach it brother. We should decide to either bring him in or just abandon the identity and use what little we have.

>>12575881
> It's not lolevil to subtly manipulate events so that we reveal the cunning plans of a devilish consort. There is absolutely nothing lolevil about giving Arman to her.

The lolevil part is the people who want to turn him in purely because he didn't pay us money.

And even if there is nothing linking us to Finn, Scinnari's disguise, and that operation, it still leaves it the target of Cygnis' wrath. Which we don't want, it's a profitable operation that would be better off under our control than trashed.

>>12575898
Think about it though. If we didn't bring it in would it even be under 'our' control? All we have to go on is the word of a devil who is obviously reticent about giving us the truth.

>>12575881
> If Arman vanishes it will almost assuredly be the Cult suspected, not debt collectors. Why? He has no debts!

Problem. We would know it wasn't the cult, and Cygnis has detect lies. Dice rolls in terms of trying to slither our way out of any questions might not go in our favor (these are /tg/ dice after all). Simply put, we know too much. We don't want Cygnis involved in this, at all.

>>12575885
> and the interest was piling up." Arman admits sheepishly.
There is some. And Arman can be downplaying it for his pride, or he is naive of his contract. I do take into account that this might be Sci's scheme, and either killing him or getting him into her hands might impress her. I also take into account the possibility that Cygnis is not yet all that jaded of him to let him go lost without looking into the matter.

I tried advocating the 'complicated, but leave everyone alive' plan, going for cunning, but it seems most want to do the 'waste one, get big boon from other' plan.

I'll agree to offing Arman, by Ladon or Jassa, IF we can formulate a plan to get Cygnis to turn to Cybah to look for Arman's disappearance.

>>12575898
I'm not a vocal opponent, but it seems Finn's operation, while nice, is replaceable, compared to finding out whether our lawful-lovely-ladyfriend thinks she has us wrapped around her little finger.

Considering how much we trust her with, I think we can't afford not to keep this tab on her.

>>12575913
We have ways of getting Finn's operation without working all the way up from the bottom as Scinnari's lapdog. And remember, this isn't even a part of the deal with Finn. This is Scinnari pushing her own agenda, hence why she wants Arman for herself, alive.

>>12575919
"I can't say that the cult took Arman, my dear, but I do know they would love to get their hands on him. Just look what happened before, they have already kidnapped him! Rest assured, I will do everything in my power to find out the situation behind his disappearance."

Bam, no lies.

If you really want to take Finn's operation, and frame the cult, then it's simple.

We kill Arman ourselves, using Cygnis' dagger that we still have.

>>12575941
True, technically we can bring him in dead. But it would be best to bring him in alive if we are going to do it at all.

Still, something to consider I guess.

>>12575924
> I tried advocating the 'complicated, but leave everyone alive' plan, going for cunning

Except it was a terrible plan. The better "leave everyone alive" plan is to not bother Arman at all. We wouldn't piss any more people off than we already were pissing off under your plan, and it actually is a direction that has something that comes afterward (confronting Scinnari) rather than simply trailing off after that.

Writer-dude, can you resolve this tonight? I really don't want to go through this whole argument again Wed.

>>12575946
If we kill him with Cygnis' dagger though we can't bring him to Scinnari or Finn. Scinnari might put two and two together.

>>12575957
Oh, right. Scinnari knows about the dagger and that we have it. Oh well, looks like it's either take him to Finn's or do nothing and hope we have enough to scare her. I personally think we can't afford to let this chance slip by.

>>12575955
If it isn't resolved, I'll resolve it offscreen or in Wednesday's OP.

You know, I think I know why some people don't want to turn in Arman.

Aside from being a red dragon, we really haven't done anything that, if Cygnis found out about it, we wouldn't be able to explain. Seriously, the amount of down right evil stuff we've done is pretty small. Turning in Arman, however, means that we're stuck on the path of conflict with Cygnis. It's one thing that if she finds out about we wouldn't be able to explain, hence the reluctance. They're sort of arguing for hedging our bets by not actually doing very much that would turn people against us even if they did find out about it.

>>12575968
I hadn't thought of it like that. Hmmm.

Unfortunately at this point I'm fairly sure we are way past the point of no return. We've tortured more than one person to death, IIRC. Started a kobold army. Made a device which has the sole purpose of killing a gold dragon. We're evil, no two ways about it. And sometimes we just have to do things like this.

Plus, how can she possibly find out?

> We wouldn't piss any more people off than we already were pissing off under your plan,
Who? Who are we pissing off? 'Cept Sci, while Jassa should praise us. And Sci would be pissed off at Ladon then.
If Sci goes after Ladon in any way, that is a confirmation that Sci wants Arman dead, for specific personal and unrelated reason to getting Finn's organization. Either chastise her then for almost breaking Jassa's cover for petty revenge, or abandon Ladon at that point.

. . . I'm a bit too deep into my opinion right now and starting to get heated, so I'll back off.

>>12575967
Honestly, it looks like it's as resolved as it's going to get. We still have a holdout but there are (I think) 2 strongly in favor and 2 who are saying "Well it makes sense, do it."

> Aside from being a red dragon, we really haven't done anything that, if Cygnis found out about it, we wouldn't be able to explain.
> Aside from being a red dragon
> red dragon

And this is why the "Save Arman!" people are a bunch of colossal fucking retards. Seriously, how can someone NOT know that chromatics and metallics have a kill-on-sight thing going? There's no point to "hedging or bets" because if Cygnis finds out about that one thing it'll be a duel to the death right then and there. There's no point in worrying about if she finds out about anything. So we should just turn him in.

>>12575968
Hmm. So it's paranoia then. I guess I can understand that.

>>12575994
God, for the last time, she just would really hate us. 3.5e is not kill on sight, that's 4e. She would just really dislike us and try to kick us out. Admittedly still going to end in bloodshed, though.

You know, he said he returned the money. Perhaps he did so when a collector (like us, har har,) came knocking at his door.

Perhaps also, that collector decided he was a poor priest, he'd just be killed off, and decided to neglect to mention the money.

Hence missing late fees, wanted dead. A slim hope, but it might let us cop out both of killing him and of dumping the ID, while allowing us to appear supremely capable if we could find whoever made off with the money.

Of course, I'm just dreaming.

>>12576005
I would lend your theory credence except, well, it's Scinnari ordering the hit.

>>12575982
> Unfortunately at this point I'm fairly sure we are way past the point of no return.

Not really. Most of our serious killing has been against the cult, and I think Cygnis would let that slide given what they've done to her.

> torture
I recall having Scinnari torture Asha, when did we torture someone who wasn't cult to death? I don't recall that. If they're cult, as I mentioned Cygnis might be tempted to let that go.

> Started a kobold army.
And we haven't done anything evil with them. They're minions, dragons have minions. Cygnis would understand that desire, and considering we haven't really used them for evil would have anything to fault us for there.

> Made a device which has the sole purpose of killing a gold dragon.
It's a fall back plan. After all, we have reason to worry about our safety, just as she would if she knew we were a red when we first met. We can explain that as something we did before we got to know her. Which actually it was, it was a pretty early plan.

>>12575967
I really don't think we should resolve the whole "Hey, we're investigating a huge internal threat." thing offscreen. Maybe actually taking him into custody or turning him in, sure. There are lots of ways we could do that seamlessly, and we don't really need to know much about that other than "You grabbed him and gave him to Scinnari. The next day you are contacted at a prearranged address you set up..." But the actual plotting and stuff that comes afterward I feel should be detailed so we know what Scinnari is up to.

>>12576003
Word of God here, confirming. She might even wait and see, if she doesn't have anything evil she can (or thinks she can) lay at our feet.

>>12576003
> She would just really dislike us and try to kick us out. Admittedly still going to end in bloodshed, though.

Actually... maybe not. If we really haven't crossed the point of no return yet, then we might be able to play on her mental issues. All we would have to do is demonstrate that we're still the Cibach she (thinks) she knows, we just also happen to have been a red dragon the entire time. That will leave her delightfully conflicted as she tries to reconcile her experiences with and memories of us with the fact that we're a red, and if we continue to play the gentleman even in dragon form we can push that even further.

Her finding out we're a red does not guarantee bloodshed, there would still be ways out if we're smooth enough.

Unless, of course, we get Arman killed. That's something she'll never let slide no matter how slick we are. That's the point of no return.

>>12576027
Wasn't intending to wrap this up. Was thinking of either just skipping ahead to the ball (we can probably carry on afterwards,) or skip ahead to turning Arman into Scinnari as Blackjack.

Not resolving the whole thing.

>>12576034
We sort of did hand her that dagger and try to get her to kill Arman. We can't beg off of that through ignorance if she knows we are a dragon. We would have known exactly what would happen, and she would know we would know.

Hmm, have we considered, I don't know, bringing Arman in on this? Say that he has a way to pay his debt to us, if he plays along and helps us with an investigation.

I don't know. Haven't thought about it much. Food for thought.

>>12576044
Scinnari is going to torture him to death most likely. Even if not, I imagine he will give up all his secrets one way or another. If we bring him to her we had best not have Cibach Azal involved in any way.

>>12576038
Oh that's cool then.

>>12576040
But we're a DIFFERENT dragon. All we have to do is plead off on "It just felt funny to me.".

Hell, we could let her continue to think we are evil, but lawful evil, and in an enlightened "Happy people is good, being evil for the sake of being evil is bad, being evil to achieve good ends... (torture) is acceptable when necessary" she might even decide it's her best interest to help us and guide us, avoiding direct confrontation, and trying to nudge us towards the light side.


I am the person from yesterday who posted this, though, so my judgement may not be sound.

>>12576055
We could follow, and stop her if she tries to. Hell, that's something we can nail her on. If we catch her in the act she won't be able to deny working behind our back.

GUYS.

Can we use the gem to turn ourselves invisible so that we can listen in while Scinnari questions Arman?

And we should scry on her while she's "negotiating" with Finn. Because goddamn people are gonna burn if OUR devil is in someone else's bed.

>>12576069
That would be the same as confronting her now, just a lot more work. We already know she is trying to do it, she literally can't deny that because we are the ones she told to do it.

If we turn him in it has to be all the way, half-measures will just botch it and poison the well. Good try, though. In any other situation that would be a good idea. Unfortunately circumstances dictate our actions be at the two extremes here.

>>12576076
Good idea, but she has truesight 24/7. No can do, we would be found out instantly.

Burn Finn, polymorph into Finn, give organization reigns to Jassa, . . . , profit.

Unless we are still paranoid of Sci.

>>12576080
> That would be the same as confronting her now, just a lot more work. We already know she is trying to do it, she literally can't deny that because we are the ones she told to do it.

No, there was an earlier post detailing all the ways she could try to weasel her way out if we confront her now, ways she wouldn't have if we stopped her right when she was trying to torture Arman.

>>12576089
>Unless we are still paranoid of Sci.
Is this even in question? Why do you think we are on this whole thing? It was to ensure that we could trust her. Then we found out, well, maybe we can't. That's why we need to investigate more.

>>12576086
Another polymorph form. One of the guards, or another henchman, etc. There are many ways to conceal our presence besides invisibility, and we've already established that we can keep true seeing from spotting us polymorphed.

>>12576090
I'm sure she could come up with some lie or half-truth. She's a devil after all.

>>12576089
Yes, we are still paranoid of Scinnari, with good reason. This entire thing with Arman proves that she's pushing her own agenda.

>>12576097
We can't impersonate people with our natural shapeshifting except at a distance. We'd be discovered instantly. Said way back in like the fourth thread.

>>12576100
In the middle of torturing Arman? After she had said "oh, you probably don't want me aggravating Cygnis, so I won't"?

No, I think that would be difficult to worm out of even for her.

>>12576110
She could say that we ourselves tried to kill him in the cult temple with the dagger, and even said at one time that we didn't care about him. She would *never* have harmed him if she knew it would be working against us, oh heavens no!

ect.

This makes me angry. If you can't trust your lawful evil devil waifu, who can you trust?

Hmm. Polymorph into Finn for a while to fool the truesight. Then try talking Scinnari into bed. Depending on how easy she gives it up, we may need to start killing people. And a devil.

>>12576119
We wouldn't be able to impersonate Finn well enough.

Personally, I think we should turn Arman in, then try to follow her as best we can. Sure, the invisibility won't work, but we might be able to simply sneak after her the old fashioned way. Personally, I want to know why she's so keen on taking Arman alive rather than simply killing him.

Fine, potentiality:

Take Arman as Lydon. Be polite, be efficient, be clean. [/sniper]. Take him in, turn him into Scin/Jassa, (I keep reading that as 'Jaza'. I have no idea why.), ask what her stake in him is, and what she intends to do with him.

If it's torture (lucky guess, but believable,), tell her no. We may not have morals, but pain is pain, and pain for the sake of pain is useless. Stupid-useless. If she wants to kill him for being late, okay, if she wants to kill him unpleasantly to send a message to other potential late payers, fine, but if she wants to torture him to death just cause, No. If she presses further, we're a hunter, not a minion, we can take our services elsewhere.

We have

Deniability. We never intended any harm to Arman. We NEEDED to test Scinnari's loyalty.

Kept our cover, fleshed it out a little. We're a true neutral/neutral evil type, we'll do whatever, but we have standards.

Have informed no one, nobody can trace BlackJack to us.

And vengeance to satisfy the enraged part of us; seriously unpleasant things done to Arman.
And this was all desperately important. After all, we were worried about Cygnis, If Scinnari was going behind our back to do things... It could have been much worse than the cult, for all involved!

>>12576166
>we'll do whatever, but we have standards
Well then clearly we won't do whatever.

If we start down this road, I think it should be all the way. No saving Arman pain, because Cygnis won't care if we didn't want to torture him or not. We still delivered him to death. There is nothing to gain from mouthing off to Scinnari on our first tryout job. Maybe later if a real problem presents, but here it's just a case of... what? Scruples? We don't have scruples with torture.

>>12576166
I like this. More information is a good thing. If we can find out what Scinnari wants with him before there's permanent damage, that's good.

Actually, come to think of it we could turn him in as Blackjack, polymorph into a third, new form, and spring him as that form. Not Blackjack's problem you couldn't hold on to him.

>>12576177
The Ladon cover has standards. Our red dragon only has paranoia. :P

After getting Arman offed however way, try to formulate plan to get Cybach to be the agent that Cygnis chooses to track the missing priest.

>>12576184
Please. No. No compromises. This will only end badly. If someone springs Arman, who could it be? Who knew Arman would be there? Scinnari, us, and maybe nobody else in the world. Clear leak, instant loss of trust. Or if we try to claim we could have been followed we aren't a leak, but we are incompetent and a liability.

>>12576184
We might not even need a third persona. We could spring him as Cibach. We could say something to the effect of "I saw someone kidnap Arman and assumed it was the cult at it again. How the hell was I supposed to know it was you when you GO BEHIND MY BACK. SERIOUSLY, STOP THAT. If you actually told me about these things I might humor you and let you. But by concealing things from me you become indistinguishable from the enemy. You BECOME the enemy."

>>12576200
And we will spook her. We won't get to the bottom of anything because her operation there will be completely blown. Ruins the whole plan. Better to just have confronted her.

If we are going to do this, Arman is dead. If we aren't then he lives and we go with what we have right now. Half measures are going to completely fuck us.

>>12576194
Shouldn't take too much effort.

Since we've gone to Arman as Cibach, he'll tell Scinnari about it, and Scinnari will put 2 and 2 together.

We can only return him dead now. That's fine with me. We've been debating this long enough now. Let's take a vote.

I vote for killing Arman.

Alright, solution: Give this up as a lose-lose situation. Don't toss good resources (Cygnis, Scinnari, Arman,) after bad, (the money spent on the disguise.).

Drop the identity of Ladon. We've even got a sucky name, anyway! (No offense to whoever chose it, I didn't notice until the Ladon/Lydon mix up.)

We can probably recycle some of our disguise, maybe even most of it, create a new identity, use it when the current situation is resolved, and we can't get a contract on Arman.

Even if you don't like it, it seems like the best middle ground if we don't come to an accord..

>>12576223
The only "resource" we are tossing is Arman, and he does virtually nothing for us. We've moved well beyond the point where he is needed or helpful on any regular basis. Seriously, when is the last time he did anything? He didn't even pay us our 300 gold. And we NEED to know what she is doing. If we can't keep tabs on her or trust her then we might as well just make a meal out of her.

>>12576222
As said earlier in the thread, why would she even ask that? And if she does, why would it seem strange that we were asking after our 300 gold? And even if it does seem strange, we have Asha who used to work for him and could have heard something about the debt when she was there.

We've got those bases completely covered.

>>12576222
I vote against killing Arman. And against turning him in.

This >>12576223
Is what I vote for. We learned enough with this identity. We can mention in passing to Scinnari at some point as Cibach that we killed someone who was probably cult trying to kidnap Arman again and just leave it at that.

I vote for turning him in to her and gaining cred. These arguments are just the same thing over and over. Please read back through previous posts.

>>12576222
Cybach chatted with him to ask about gold, not warning him about creditors. Unless Sci specifically tortures him about that elf, it won't come up. And it still flies right in Sci's eyes if it comes to that: Red dragon looks up about some extra coins.

I was the probable lone voice for saving Arman, but it looks like he has no further use except in death. Deliver him alive.

>>12576235
>why would she even ask that

She wouldn't need to. Cibach is a person of some power in the city, and a friend of Arman. He'd invoke our name for protection. And then the jig is up.

>>12576235
> The only "resource" we are tossing is Arman, and he does virtually nothing for us.

He's the point of no return.

See >>12575968
and >>12576034

Yes, we need to know what Scinnari is up to, but there are other avenues we can pursue aside from taking jobs directly from her. Our kobolds, for instance. We can investigate Scinnari in a more indirect manner.

>>12576223
I vote for this. Drop the Ladon identity, move ahead to the ball for now.

>>12576223
The best middle ground is completely abandoning what we started and starting over because the guy we were assigned to kill or bring in was Arman. That's silly, we would have killed anyone else in a split second and been at the same risk with Cygnis for kidnapping people off the street to be killed. She wouldn't forgive that either, gold dragons are lawful good. I vote just give him to her it can't hurt anything.

>>12576248
> I was the probable lone voice for saving Arman, but it looks like he has no further use except in death. Deliver him alive.

What are you talking about? There are plenty of people who don't want to turn him in. You were the one with the halfway "mean mafia enforcer" plan that gets us nothing and pisses everyone off.

>>12576249
She already knows we know him. Invoking our name for protection is, well, nothing. Absolutely nothing. And again, why is it any shock that we visited him asking about his debt to us?

>>12576259
> That's silly, we would have killed anyone else in a split second and been at the same risk with Cygnis for kidnapping people off the street to be killed.

If it was another underworld figure, or a cultist, or any number of less scrupulous people Cygnis wouldn't care. The probably is precisely that it's Arman, who, though naive, isn't a bad guy and is Cygnis' friend to boot. That makes it significantly more of a problem.

>>12576272
>Cygnis wouldn't care
I call bullshit, and maybe samefag. We had to work to convince her that killing a cultist who had just tried to kill us was a good idea while infiltrating their hideout and after she had been tortured by them for weeks.

She would just turn a blind eye to kidnapping people off the street for possible torture and death? Pull your head out of your ass, Arman-samefag.

>>12576272
>niave
Hardly. I'd place him more in a "Doesn't know he's dealing with dragons and liable to get burned" camp.

I'll vote for the delay proposal; it doesn't solve much, but at least it puts off the decision so I can get some sleep. And, call me paranoid, but I'm not certain this will ever be a problem again; the cult's plans seem to be rapidly nearing completion.

>>12576222
And I vote against killing Arman.

It was mentioned earlier in this thread that one way to avoid having do-gooders crashing the party is to avoid doing things that they can nail you on. This is an example of a time to do that. Indulging in the evil action when there are still other options on the table is precisely what will turn people against us. We should be intelligent first and evil second, not the other way around.

We don't need to pursue this investigation as Ladon any more. We can go at it from another angle.

>>12576277
> I call bullshit, and maybe samefag. We had to work to convince her that killing a cultist who had just tried to kill us was a good idea while infiltrating their hideout and after she had been tortured by them for weeks.

And in the end Cygnis was okay with us killing that cultist as soon as we brought up the fact that he was a cultist to justify it. The problem was that we at first tried to be a cocky elven bastard and say "oh, it's just a human." That didn't fly. But when it became obvious that he was cult, she outright agreed that yeah, he deserved to die.

Look, I hate to do this with a discussion that's been raging so, and I kicked off, but... I need sleep. It's rapidly approaching 4 AM.

You are excellent questgoers, you've drawn the line and divided off to vote; I wish I'd demanded it earlier, so that I could stay to see the end. I'll without a doubt be checking this before I even think about starting the next thread. I'll even cut us some extra slack for the somewhat forced nature of such a conclusion, and for /tg/ dice.

Sorry, just almost falling asleep here while I wait for responses. 3:57.

W-D out. Email me with persuasion, questions, complaints.

>>12576279
The problem is, delaying it will do nothing but hurt us. It has all of the bad parts of the "compromise" plans but is somehow even worse. I'm going to bed now, screw this. People are just arguing the same stuff that was said ages ago over and over, and I'm pretty sure there's at least one samefag sockpuppeting agreement with himself.

Well looks like everyone is going to bed. Me too, I guess. I voted for putting Arman into a barrel earlier in the thread, but I'll just restate it here.

>>12576277
> She would just turn a blind eye to kidnapping people off the street for possible torture and death? Pull your head out of your ass, Arman-samefag.

See
> If it was another underworld figure,
> or a cultist
Qualifiers

If it was just a random person, sure, she would care. If it was a criminal or a cultist she wouldn't have as many objections, and we'd be able to justify it to her like we did when we killed the cultist in front of her.

Also, when in doubt, accuse of samefagging!
Brilliant argument there.

>>12576262
Yeah, yeah. Mean mafia enforcer. Pissed every one off. Though I still don't get why. :|

Even if we drop Ladon, Arman's dead or tortured all the same. Cygnis goes off, unless Cybach angles her off. Arman spouts off Cybach's name in order to get respite, but Sci already knows the connection, she is there most of the time.

If this plan is for Jassa-Finn, she'll let Arman go to ask coin from Cybach, or kill him all the same for example.
If it is personal, Arman is still dead. Or worse off (crazy? dominated? soul-drained?).

And we gain almost nothing from it.

Continue to ball all the same? o_o

I'll vote for turning in Arman alive.

>>12576277

>>12576299
> Even if we drop Ladon, Arman's dead or tortured all the same.
Not necessarily. We just need to keep Scinnari busy.

Also, after the ball, as a reward we could ask her about the boon again, and to really tell us this time instead of just waffling and lamely trailing off because we are in a good enough mood that we might humor her. It would be relatively innocent, and it would get us some additional info, namely what she wants to do with him.

>>12576298
Excuse me, but if a thread seems to be resolved (and for like half an hour to an hour it was, it seemed like most of the people were in favor of turning him in) and then it, despite being in autosage, suddenly gets 2 to 3 new people who all make similar arguments with similar posting styles.... well color me suspicious.

I'm out too now, early class tomorrow. I vote for giving him to her, by the way.

>>12576332

How the fuck would that be any different than just confronting her. Seriously, think you retarded samefag. Asking that would totally tip her off that we were Ladon all along and it would ruin everything.

Fuck you moralfag. I think we should just hand over Arman, and if you would stop samefagging so fucking much it would be obvious that everyone agrees with me on that.

>>12576336
> but if a thread seems to be resolved
I see no point where consensus had been reached. Doesn't look like it was ever really resolved to me. There were people making new suggestions and arguments all over the place.
> despite being in autosage
Generally doesn't matter for quest threads. People can easily find them again via tabs.
> suddenly gets 2 to 3 new people who all make similar arguments with similar posting styles
When you make a mistake (like saying that Cygnis would object to us killing cultists), people might call you on it. In some cases several people.

I'm really not seeing the obvious samefag that you are.

>>12576299
> Though I still don't get why.
Because it doesn't get us anything. It doesn't get us any closer to finding out what Scinnari was up to because it would be going against what she had hired us to do, so that pisses off the people in favor of turning him in as part of our investigation. So it doesn't get us that, yet we're still harassing Arman, which might get Cygnis involved and pissed, which pisses off the people who wanted to leave him alone. It has the disadvantages of both, with none of the benefits of either.

And it looks like this thread is pretty much dead. My vote is here >>12576332
And now I'm off to bed.

The main point people (or person?) arguing for letting him live make is that it's a "Point of no return".

I think that's fallacious. If Cygnis found out, yes, we would throw down. But if Cygnis found out that we were a red dragon and had been manipulating and lying to her from day one I imagine the results would be much the same. We ate into her horde to put ourselves in power. Remember, she likes us so much not only because we saved her but because we are her mortal patsy. That goes byebye if she figures it out. Especially if she figures out we have been torturing people, planning to kill her, and all that other unpleasant stuff. Hell, it would throw everything into question, she could even assume we lead the cult. Dragon symbols everywhere and we've been all over it from day one.

And secondly, well, if she figures out that Arman was done in by us she would also have to know that we were a red dragon. Why? Because our whole scheme here relies on being able to polymorph and assume new identities. That leads directly to "oh, well fuck, he's a red." if she bothers to look.

tl;dr: Just turn Arman over to our helltart.

>>12576413
Except that W-D himself said that her finding out we're a red might not end in a fight. And so far, that's really all she can pin on us. We haven't really been lying to her simply because we can't, she could detect that. We've been using some of her hoard because, if you'll recall, that was the deal that SHE offered US. And she has become progressively more dependent on us emotionally. Remember when we talked to that snake thing disguised as Thuron? She was practically clinging to us out of sheer terror. We're her support against the cult and we can use that if it comes to a dragon-to-dragon confrontation.

I think we should have a talk with Scinnari figure out what is going on.

I am against outright getting rid of Arman. Remember BAD things happen only to our enemy's.

We are playing intelligent evil not randomly kill our own contacts.

if she wants Arman we could give her money to BUY Arman so he will be in debt with Scinnari instead of Lyod. giving her a chance to have her way with Arman at her own leisure.

We might request that she not do anything to reduce his usefulness. letting Scinnari know that Arman is a resource even though he might seem like a small one (you never know when you need them until you do).

However Arman moral outlook or anything that does not effect his usefulness, and does not have outright negative repercussions is fair game.

Basically she can do anything she wants as long as it does not effect us negatively. Scinnari can torment Arman nightly as long as he remains useful and no repercussions come up.

of course we will need to ask what Scinnari plans to do. and ways to prevent Arman or Cygnis from asking us for help or blaming us for this.

>>12576379
Touche, losing the chance of uncovering Sci's scenario, if any, to get at Arman...
I just hope with all this debate there is a conspiracy, and not just Scinarri taking our nonchalant decision on Arman's life as carte blanche to toy with him.

On the other point, I was banking on Arman's pride to keep him quiet and go to Cybach (Cibach?) instead.

>>12576413
IF Cyg finds out. Cibach is his mortal PATSY, and if we do it well, we can make her eat anything Cibach says. We still have that anti-polymorph necklace for insurance, too.

For those who fear point of no return... Is that point of no return in the Neutral alignment, or for plausible deniability?
Cause we haven't gone Evil paragon in my book, not unless we start killing or torturing for the express purpose of inflicting harm, or for giggles. If killing someone to get to our benefit is Evil, we already went past that... Lots of times.
For plausible deniability, well, that's why we hand him over alive. Answer question with more question, misdirect, the works...

>>12576499
Sadly, the problem with this is apparently, Hivemind does not trust Scinnari, hence where Ladon comes in and the request to get Arman...

>>12576526
Well, we're right to not trust Scinnari in most cases. However, there are instances where we might be able to wrangle something close to the truth out of her. See >>12576332

We ask her in the context of the boon. Bring it up when we're in a good mood, say that because of that good mood we might very well be willing to grant it, so she could go ahead and ask instead of withdrawing it before she said anything that could give us a hint as to what she wanted like last time. That was pretty annoying.

>>12576513
reason i consider it a point of no return is the fact that we risk losing far too much for nothing. at best losing one ally and at worst two (Arman/ Cygnis). We would have to use our back up plans at a time inconvenient for us. Also distractions could cost us dearly as the cult is currently trying to get rid of us.

We are evil yes but not mindless evil. reason i proposed giving money to Scinnari to "buy" Arman; Best of both worlds. Arman can be our gift to her of course, we can request she preserve his usefulness.

Also why are we hunting our own allies? i thought we where trying to infiltrate the light house in a different persona.

rolled 2, 7 = 9

I think that it's vital that we do not slip into the 'Stupid Evil' guise.

We should only actively annihilate things that stand in our way of our goals (namely money and power). Anyone that helps us achieve our goals should (rightly) be rewarded and praised.


Also - awesome thread yet again WD ^^

rolled 10, 10 = 20

As an addendum:

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6

Commit evil acts when absolutely necessary or when there is only a small chance of being caught. Lawful evil characters thrive when they appear to be upstanding moral citizens, or when there simply is not enough evidence to prove otherwise.