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  • File : 1265827232.jpg-(84 KB, 375x500, 1265773352801.jpg)
    84 KB Matt Ward 02/10/10(Wed)13:40 No.8016267  
    So I heard you guys love my work?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)13:42 No.8016295
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    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)13:44 No.8016312
    I don't play Warhammer. Who is this?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)13:44 No.8016323
    I do play warhammer and I've got no idea
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)13:45 No.8016339
    Poster in the back ground says it all. He's only the most Troll-a-rific Army Book/Codex writer.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)13:46 No.8016341
    I remember something about a furry artist (who, aside from being the sort of person that draws furry porn, is a complete dick who even other furries hate) that did some stuff for DH books. It's probably this guy.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)13:47 No.8016354
    stop ruining perfectly good armies for you sick and twisted fluff ideals you bastard who deserves to be homeless.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)13:47 No.8016355

    The guy that wrote the WHFB Demon army book and The Spacesmurfs Codex. He is the one that made it official that every chapter that is not Ultramarines are smalltimes.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)13:47 No.8016357
    so OP met Matt Ward and wasn't compelled to kill him

    i am dissapoint
    >> PaperJack 02/10/10(Wed)13:47 No.8016359
    Nope, it's not that furry guy.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)13:47 No.8016360
    Wikipedia tells me nothing about him, so I don't know what I'm supposed to be raging about.

    I think that was Naylor.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)13:48 No.8016367
    How does it make you feel to know you will never be able to suck an Ultramarine's shriveled cock, Matt Ward?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)13:48 No.8016368
    He looks like the jew hitman from Rome
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)13:48 No.8016369
    He kinda looks like an old-timey villain. Just twirl his moustache and give him a top hat and he'll be putting damsels on railroad tracks in no time!
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)13:49 No.8016382
    You mean the one who turned Codex: Space Marines into Codex: Ultramarines With A Few Characters Who Change A Special Rule?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)13:49 No.8016388
    Haha I was gonna post this thread when I got home today. I love you /tg/


    He is Matt Ward. One of GW's rules designers.

    The chump who wrote Codex Ultramarines to say that all other chapters wish they were Ultramarines.

    The cocksucker who intentionally unbalanced the orcs and goblins armies book to suck because he thinks orcs should be a cartoon race of fools

    The tool who intentionally unbalanced the daemons armies book to be way overpowered because he thinks that daemons should always win.

    The shitstain who writes rules for a game that his company holds tournaments with, but who throws game balance out the window and then smugly admits it to people during interviews.

    The cumbucket who deserves to be fired.

    Damn you Mattttt Warrrddddd!
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)13:50 No.8016389
    I will end him
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)13:53 No.8016415
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    I don't even play Warhams, and even I'm pretty pissed off by that. Especially having seen that screenshot of the relevant sections from the codex.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)13:53 No.8016420

    >Matt Ward mind.
    >> Marneus Augustus Calgar 02/10/10(Wed)13:54 No.8016434
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    Hey Matt Ward I hear you like sucking my cock. Well go on then, my sweaty balls aren't going to lick themselves.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)13:55 No.8016441
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    Oh shit, he has his own poster.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)13:55 No.8016443
    You guys should stop this cycle of abuse with Games Workshop and just play other games already.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)13:57 No.8016456
    Your a great designer, but the game is a bit unbalanced, do you playtest allot?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)13:57 No.8016458

    He must suck cock like a vacuum cleaner or something...I honestly can't come up with any other reason why they would keep somebody like that as a game designer otherwise?!
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)13:58 No.8016470
    All space marines (especially Imperial Fists, White Scars and Ravenwing, those pussy losers) wish they were Ultramarines, but they know deep down that they will always be genetically inferior to the true sons of Guilliman and that makes them cry, because they are pussy losers.

    What do you mean the Imperial Fists almost started a second Heresy out of hatred for the codex astartes? That never happened and even if it did they sure love it now boy howdy.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)13:59 No.8016488
    no lol, if we play tested and released all the codex' at the same time then we wouldn't get that steady flow of cash when people switch over to the newest more powerful of the armies
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)13:59 No.8016491

    I mean some of the text in the Marines Codex reads like a personal insult to the players of chapters Matt Ward doesn't like.

    The Fists/Scars/Ravenguard shout out in the "we all wish we were as genetically perfect as the Ultras" paragraph is the icing on the proverbial shit cake
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:02 No.8016511
    Wait, what? He actually implied the motherfucking Imperial fists wished they were Ultramarines? It's on now, son!
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:03 No.8016533
    Yep. Page 24 of the Ultramarines codex IIRC

    As a Scars player I took it kinda personally too.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:04 No.8016541
    lol but these other games are not grimdark -.-
    so its heresy xD
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:04 No.8016543

    I prefer to think the Fists were railed against by Ultras and their allies because Dorn saved the Emperor from dying of his fatal wounds. If he had perished in Horus' flagship along with the Warmaster there'd be no obstacles in Guilliman's way to become the true master of Mankind himself.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:04 No.8016546
    The idea that SPACE MONGOLS would think ANYONE was better than them is ridiculous.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:05 No.8016555
    Matt Ward is a perfect example of why fanbois shouldent be in charge of rule design.
    >> Nephanim 02/10/10(Wed)14:06 No.8016564
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    We've put in too much money and/or time. Instead of tossing out investment out the window, we'd rather complain until they fix the things that suck.

    Though, no money in it for them to improve the things that suck, so they'll just enjoy themselves on our tears.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:06 No.8016570
    while this is true, they do need to take some hints from the player base, like playtesting and releasing all the codex' when you release a new edition of the core rules.
    >> Leman Russ 02/10/10(Wed)14:09 No.8016590
    I've found it's very easy to quit playing/buying Games Workshop stuff, all you have to do is move to a new area where you have no friends and make sure all your armies are in the hands of your other friends and spread across a couple states.

    Works like a charm.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:09 No.8016591

    I almost did but then they released the Vampire Counts army book and all was forgiven for a while.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:10 No.8016604
    Wow, you're an idiot.

    You should have ebay them.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:11 No.8016614
    I like to think Matt is one of those monks from Age of Empires.
    Ork player: WAAAGH!
    Matt: Wololo
    Orks all get blue armour and start praising the Emperor
    Ork player: FFFFUUUUUUUUUUU...
    Matt: Haiouaua
    Ork player: For Guillouman!
    >> ~Trap !!ohcaGlqgaZR 02/10/10(Wed)14:11 No.8016615
    Frankly, I love my Black Templars codex.
    It's brilliant, it makes them look badass but at the same time not mary-sues.
    And the art makes me cream my panties it's so damn good.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:11 No.8016618

    I buy Games Workshop shares because they come with a guarantee that they're going to increase your misery signifcantly every year.

    I'm basically being payed by somebody who would like the right to troll you infinitly.

    Somtimes, when I'm alone at night, I lick my stock papers and I think I can almost taste your tears.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:15 No.8016654

    >> MagicJuggler 02/10/10(Wed)14:15 No.8016668
    The new challenge, I'm trying to figure, is how to make an Ork army that deals with Daemons...short of "No"
    >> ~Trap !!ohcaGlqgaZR 02/10/10(Wed)14:16 No.8016678
    Ghazkull and 40 mega-armoured nobs in trucks. I think you can do that in 1000 points but i'm not sure.
    Or Nob bikers and Wazdakka
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:19 No.8016702
    Well, that makes sense since the entire argument was basically:
    "The fuck, Guilliman? What the hell were you doing while we were busy dying defending Terra and the Emperor?"
    "Uhhh... Yeah, about that. I had other stuff I needed to take care of."
    "What do you mean 'other stuff'? What the fuck could be more important than the very symbol of mankind?"
    "I was making these nifty rules all Space Marines will have to follow from now on. I'm going to call them the Codex Astartes."
    "Wait a second here. What? Since when do you get to decide what rules we have to follow? Who died and made you boss?"
    "Well, duuuuuh. The Emperor. And I get to be the boss because my awesome legion didn't get decimated by Chaos like little bitches, Dorn."
    "Shut up, you... double heretic!"
    >> MagicJuggler 02/10/10(Wed)14:19 No.8016703
    Durn, I meant to say Orcs and Goblins...
    >> ~Trap !!ohcaGlqgaZR 02/10/10(Wed)14:20 No.8016720
    Oh. My friend plays a brutal O&G list that is obscene, with insane character-bashers and SQUIGS. It moves so damn fast and is rock hard.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:21 No.8016730

    Oh no he didn't!
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:22 No.8016747
    I smell heresey!
    >> ~Trap !!ohcaGlqgaZR 02/10/10(Wed)14:26 No.8016787
    >Moves so damn fast and is rock hard.
    Dammit I keep slipping these kinda terms into my convos.. I need a fap already.
    >> Matt Ward 02/10/10(Wed)14:27 No.8016805
    Haha oh wow!

    As if you neckbeards could write better rules. If you people got to decide Imperial Guards would be more powerful then Ultramarines and that is just laughable in so many ways.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:30 No.8016848
    Yeah, While I like the color blue, I really don't care for ultramarines. Now, here's the question
    Which is worse, Matt Ward, or whoever the hell LET Matt Ward write codexes?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:31 No.8016854

    IG laughs at 3+ armor saves anyway. We have the best weapon in the goddamn game and I will hear no arguement against it.

    The motherfucking lasgun, yeah~!
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:32 No.8016878
    Well, my dear, I'd love to be the one doing the fapping for you but that's irrelevant to this conversation.
    I, personally, don't think Mat Ward is a particularly bad writer of rules but it was unwise to give him the level of autonomy he apparently did have with the latest SM Codex.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:33 No.8016879

    The Imperial Guard wishes they where Ultramarines as well instead of puny humans.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:33 No.8016885
    >Implying Matt Motherfucking Ward doesn't authorize himself to write any goddamn codex he wants
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:34 No.8016897
    Wait, if that poster is to be believed, Matt Ward wrote the Wood Elves book. That's actually pretty damn awesome. Maybe that's why he got all those other jobs too?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:36 No.8016910
    His name is MATT WARD.

    Do not call him "Matt" you call your friends by their first name and he is not your friend.

    Do not call him "Mr. Ward" That is an honourific title given to people to show respect for them and he does not deserve your respect.

    Thus he shall be known by his full name (and only by his full name) as a mark of shame.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:37 No.8016925
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    If I could write Imperial Guard I would've given them a savage/knight world infantrymen option to get close combat veteran guardsmen (ws4) in 3 styles
    knights (carapace armor, shields)
    guerillas/barbarians (catachan vet style, poisons)
    flagellants/penal legion (high morale, sacrificial)

    with rough riders also being able to get knightly upgrades.

    The idea of a guy in medieval plate with a power sword just suits the Imperium's diversity.
    >> Crix !!RpOLjtsjwNS 02/10/10(Wed)14:38 No.8016941
    The ultramarine codex is well, balanced, I can't really get mad at him for that aside from the fact it's ULTRAMARIIIIINEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:39 No.8016945

    Yeah but they will never be Ultramarines.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:39 No.8016951
    The sad thing is we absolutely could and they'd all be fairly balanced and fair because they'd be playtested and written together.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:39 No.8016956
    I just realised, Medusa is NOT on the fucking map in the spess mahrene codex. FFFFFFFUUUUU
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:40 No.8016959

    No, but at least they have functional testicles.

    Mr. Ultra-Shriveled-Testicles-Marine.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:40 No.8016966

    The Guardsmen can never be Ultramarines, for they possess not the strength of mind and body required to become an initiate. However, despite their deficiencies the soldiers of Imperium eternally strive to follow the example set by the heirs of the great Roboute Guilliman.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:41 No.8016981

    Yeah but being Ultramarine is so awesome you wont miss it at all.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:42 No.8016988

    Jesus... you really believe that crap? It was revealed in the post that it was a total troll shop job
    >> MagicJuggler 02/10/10(Wed)14:43 No.8017007
    I propose we write /tg/hammer 40k or some similar title, and playtest the shit out of it. Any takers?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:44 No.8017014
    >>8016897Wait, if that poster is to be believed, Matt Ward wrote the Wood Elves book. That's actually pretty damn awesome. Maybe that's why he got all those other jobs too?

    all elves strive to be wood elves

    brettonians wish they could trees, but isntead hrose

    waiting b y the seaa soehore
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:45 No.8017030
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    ya, I want to do orks and eldars. my credentials being i drew this picture.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:47 No.8017050

    Sounds like a worthy task, but will the Squats be back if we do?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:48 No.8017054
    >> MagicJuggler 02/10/10(Wed)14:48 No.8017059
    Nah, it wouldn't be proppa if everyone wasn't chipping in. I've been writing up a small amount of ideas for Orks...one thing I thought would've been cool, would be the idea of certain upgrade types you could give units, depending on what HQs you took. Also, I'm writing a Mek's Garage segment.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:49 No.8017061

    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:51 No.8017081

    yeah, how do we wind up without a buncha guys going "NO ME!!!" though?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:51 No.8017085
    Oh then we can have Lost and the Damned as well!
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:53 No.8017099

    No one said it was gonna be easy but sounds a lot better then wasting our energy on troll threads.
    >> MagicJuggler 02/10/10(Wed)14:54 No.8017106
    /tg/ gets shit done. We can sort out the "BUT TAU NEED MELEE" crowd from others. (They don't. More Drone options, and unit customization would be nice. Allowing Stealthsuits to take Rifles as upgrades would be fun, etc).
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:54 No.8017112
    Fuck /tg/, you make me proud!
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:55 No.8017123
    They Kroot ARE their melee. Short range weapons would make sense for Tau proper though. Keyword: Range.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:55 No.8017124
    It should use D10s fucking finally. heaps of D6s are just crap.

    Perhaps have a similar system to Dirty World's mechanic where you have height (the number on the die) and width (the number of dice that display the same number)

    So you roll ten D10 and get 2, 3, 3, 7, 2, 7, 3, 9, 1 and 4.

    You could then choose to have a Height of 9 and Width of 1

    or a height of 7, width of 2

    or a height of 3 and width of 3

    Most defensive stuff could be covered by Widths you need to equal or beat, so taking weapons that add bonus width to your roll will be great for kicking the crap out of powered armour and tanks but if you just wanna kill some unarmoured zealot you want lots of high height single width rolls so that you get more chances to roll to wound or whatever.

    My point is that Warhammer's whole system is gay and should be rebuilt from the ground up to reflect the bad-ass fluff better.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:55 No.8017125
    Ork nobs in shoota boy squads able to take dakkaguns instead of a power klaw would be nice for fluff.

    Flash Gits not being total ass, that also needs to be fixed.
    >> Konrad Von Chocula 02/10/10(Wed)14:57 No.8017143
    It's because of moments like these I'm glad I sometimes make troll threads.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:58 No.8017152

    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:58 No.8017159
    Dakkaguns as a weapon itself are for bikes. Probably not good in a nob's hands, but a big shoota would be nice instead of a klaw. or dead shooty. So essentially, I agree with you.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:59 No.8017175
    You forgot the most important thing. Orks getting viable anti-armour options besides power klaws. Preferably by making Tankbustas not suck donkey balls.
    >> MagicJuggler 02/10/10(Wed)14:59 No.8017176
    Heaps of D20s would probably be better, allowing for more variation, range mods, etc. It's how Warzone did it if I recall...
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)14:59 No.8017177

    And i think we should bring back "make your own chapter" to most teams. So instead of having to play vanilla orks you could vary your list a bit. And fucking remove codex:blood angels, space wolfs and the others.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:01 No.8017199
    We already wrote two editions of the Angry Marines codex, which is a quality product through-and-through.

    It also has much more fuckawesome fluff.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:02 No.8017212
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    >>8017159Dakkaguns as a weapon itself are for bikes. Probably not good in a nob's hands, but a big shoota would be nice instead of a klaw. or dead shooty. So essentially, I agree with you.

    Yeah, I just figure the short range is to encourage the orks to still surge forward.

    And flows into my idea that Flash Gits choose one of three guns (dakkagun, rokkit, double sluggas) as a base to customize.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:03 No.8017221
    Very well, let us begin with the core book. What needs changing /tg/?
    >> MagicJuggler 02/10/10(Wed)15:03 No.8017223
    Dark Angels, Black Templar, Blood Angels, and Spice Wolfs. Create-a-chapter elements would be good, something more generic. I never understood why that was nerfed in favor of "EVERYONE WANTS TO BE ULTRAMUHREENS OR A SPECIAL DOOD",
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:05 No.8017246
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    Chaos needs to be reintegrated with Daemons and Lost and the Damned for one thing.

    There's a nice easy way to do that too.

    Absolutely any unit can take a mark of chaos.

    Marine crap, greater daemons, heralds as 2-for-1, special characters

    Chaos marines
    These start as basic marine profiles but then can take upgrades to become chosen. Chosen should reflect the 10,000 year struggle and the whole mini-champion theme of chaos. so each one would be like 50 points and change, WS6 and two wounds with counter-attack, infiltrate, tank hunters and a couple other skills, all priced into their upgrade cost. Any number of marines can be upgraded to chosen and once they are they can take special equipment including terminator armour and bikes. Maybe jump packs too but that should probably be a night lords special character that makes raptors troops

    Daemons. All as once choice like they were in the 3.5 codex to save some space.

    Obliterator Cult. Same as now except 100 points each and a scoring troop. This fits them better anyway since Obliterators usually only fight for warbands so that they can take a specific thing that they wanted and what better way to represent that then by having them go and take and hold the objective they want?

    Cultists: 5-20, human statline, some nifty upgrades to let them be either word bearer zealots or Alpha Legion commandos.

    Elite, Fast and Heavy should be chalked full of cool new daemon engines.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:06 No.8017259

    Because why sell one book that lets people be creative and do whatever they want when you can sell five books with all the options pre-designed and separate?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:06 No.8017261

    perhaps cover saves should be toned down.

    did any of y'all prefer when in close combat if you killed everyone around you the slower guys couldn't attack?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:06 No.8017266
    You have a reason for that "no" or do you just love shitty systems?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:07 No.8017280
    Fair enough, dakkaguns, stat-wise would make sense. Or Big shootas. The latter probably costing less.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:08 No.8017286
    Wasn't the point to prove that we could balance 40k, not that we could make a completely separate game? It's already a huge enough endeavor as it is.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:09 No.8017291
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    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:09 No.8017293

    also, warbosses get "boss slugga", which is a shoota with Pistol

    because he is twice as big as a regular boy so his 'pistol' is hueg.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:09 No.8017299
    Well, at first i thought that the d6 is more generic and more easily available to players, but then i thought "Hell! Let's troll GW!"

    But still, the system you're describing is even more horrible than warhammer 3rd edition.
    >> MagicJuggler 02/10/10(Wed)15:09 No.8017304
    Mutations by unit vs by character perhaps? Maybe with a similar table for "Craft a daemonweapon"
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:10 No.8017311
    Disregard that, I suck cocks, Big shootas are pretty much dakkaguns with moar range.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:11 No.8017324

    Make them deffguns and it's a-ok.
    >> Konrad Von Chocula 02/10/10(Wed)15:12 No.8017329

    Nah let us that are lazy have our books but make optional rules for them in a vanilla Codex if you wanna customize.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:13 No.8017341
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    Necrons should move into a voodoo loa robots theme.

    They should focus a lot more on the insanity of immortality and the decaying minds of the warriors, who are those who die most often.

    The flayed ones have given rise to skinwalker cults who wear the skins of various other cultures and try to emulate them. Kinda like ogre kingdoms' cultural appropriation and it would lead to so many cool conversions.

    C'Tan are relegated to being insane lords, perhaps talk more about powerful lords being trapped in other stars and stuff, then talk about less insane lords communing with them to reinforce the voodoo zombie loa theme --which honestly is a far cooler theme than boring run of the mill undead in space.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:13 No.8017345
    I think that is what i said.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:14 No.8017350
    For orks, have their mob rule based on no. of wounds, not just numbers, so nobs are gutsier

    add more options to represent nobs of other klans

    say, a kommando team of Blood Axe nobs with light gear, special weapons and infiltration.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:15 No.8017360
    Nah it ain't. Go play Dirty World. It's a hell of a lot of fun. The idea is that this one mechanic can transfer to absolutely all aspects of the game so you only need to learn a couple of rules.

    Then all the equipment and abilities just add bonuses or penalties to different aspects of those rolls.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:17 No.8017388
    Then again, It's a fucking RPG system and not tailored for miniatures gaming.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:19 No.8017401
    I like it. As long as the hyper customizable newly rebelled all the way to ten thousand year old chosen champions unit is the main focus.

    I feel that Chaos has become way too homogenized and having a new focus on hordes of unique individuals might help this.

    Of course these squads will have to be costed with wound allocation in mind since everyone can have different equipment.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:21 No.8017421
    Anyhow, i think we at least should remove the look through codex for tables shit whithclose combat. Maybey a simpler roll under stat indicated system.

    And possibly a quicker game?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:21 No.8017435
    Alternate rules for clans would make sense too. suns going 7" instead of 6" for walking, goffs being moar choppy, snakebites getting bonuses on squigs or something (PS Bring back squig squads and madboyz), death skulls being moar....looty, somehow. And Badmoons being moar rich. Not sure how to do that either.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:22 No.8017438
    Well yeah but surely it could be adapted? Anything's better than d6s all the time. Do you hit on a 3+ or a 4+? That's the only affect stats really have and that is fucking lame

    Fair enough, I just don't think D6s only is a good system. It's fundamentally crap.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:23 No.8017468
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    Ork Boyz:
    option of 'uge choppa added at +5 pts, same restrictions as rokkits and the b.shoota

    'eavy armor restriction removed (seriously, if you can have multiple mobs of nobs in 'eavy armor, it's not rare at all)

    Nob- option of Dakkagun at +5pts, this replaces the twin-linked shoota (too weedy in the first place)
    option of kombi- rokkit or scorcha at +5pts
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:24 No.8017483
    I can balance equal amounts of bat guano and bovine feces on a fine silver scale.

    At the end of the day I still have a pile of shit.

    Warhams isn't a good game. We'd be better off starting totally from scratch to better reflect the fluff.

    Drop that dumb Force Org Chart too. Or make a different one for each race. Or one that can change depending on your HQ. SOMETHING!
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:25 No.8017490
    Now now /tg/! Let's start with the most fundamental! And we need somwhere to store all this!
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:28 No.8017517
    Yeah, that "if you have three squads of repentias you can't have an exorcist" shit is fucking bugging me. But still, we need restrictions.
    >> MagicJuggler 02/10/10(Wed)15:30 No.8017541
    Hrm, if we did scratchbuild a system, it would mean that we wouldn't have silly trademark issues.

    Ooh...make armybuilder files for Brikwars perhaps, and store army templates on 1d4chan?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:30 No.8017550

    FOC is not inherently a bad idea, only when the slot gets overcrowded by good choices or totally shitty, Tyranid Elite slots being example of the former, CSM Fast attack of the latter.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:31 No.8017559
    are you matt ward?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:31 No.8017563
    How about instead of having separate codex books at all, we make a single army list with everything you could want, all balanced to itself, and then it's up to you to explain why it's fluffy?

    Granted this would result in some fucking stupid ork+necron+tyranid builds but in theory it would be balanced so it wouldn't matter

    and on the upside it would let you field proper imperial armies supervised by a Mentor Legion Elite Cadre member and a squad of seconded Imperial Fists

    or proper Chaos armies with daemon engines, hordes of cultists and a big block of terminators

    Or a heretical xenos Inquisitor's band of eldar allies, blood axe mercenary orks and his loyal deathwatch retainer

    >> MagicJuggler 02/10/10(Wed)15:33 No.8017589
    Might as well run rogue trader then...heh...
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:33 No.8017593
    >How about instead of having separate codex books at all, we make a single army list with everything you could want, all balanced to itself, and then it's up to you to explain why it's fluffy?

    >Granted this would result in some fucking stupid ork+necron+tyranid builds but in theory it would be balanced so it wouldn't matter

    Not a bad idea, but that would just fuck everything up.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:34 No.8017599
    No, the idea is okay in principle. The fact that it's always the same fucking chart is stupid though. They almost got the right idea with the 3.5 chaos dex but didn't think it through
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:36 No.8017619
    What is needed is the opportunity to run Lost and the Damned, and the CSM legions, and fix some shit in other codices, like Flash Gitz and most of the Aspect Warriors.. .
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:36 No.8017625
    The big offenders could be solved by including in the special rule "Necron" the text "if one model in an army has the Necron special rule, all other models must as well"

    or something along those lines. Same deal with Tyranids.

    Other than that every race has conceivable fluff reasons for fighting with allies sometimes.
    >> MagicJuggler 02/10/10(Wed)15:37 No.8017642
    Yeah, Eldar is "FIRE DRAGONS ONLY! FINAL DESTINATION!" nowadays. Which is a shame, because you think giving the Scorpions access to chainswords/chainfists/etc would make them better at ripping open vehicles according to 40k logic. Likewise, Banshees just plain suck.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:40 No.8017684
    Not too bad now that i think of it.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:42 No.8017704
    autosage now?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:44 No.8017737
    Where would you like to take the...whole system anyway? Back to RPG RT Times?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:45 No.8017741
    Give Autarchs a "temple upgrade" where they can pick an aspect to become troops or something.

    Of course I think all this is futile since the whole system is garbage. Why waste time trying to fix something so fundamentally broken when we could just invent something new and spare ourselves the trouble?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:47 No.8017780
    Me and my buddies play with the old codexes. Fuck this new shit.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:48 No.8017801
    That would be better than the "roll d6s until you get enough 4s" stuff we have today but no. I was thinking something more along the lines of what they did for Necromunda with Henches and Heros and you can purchase Henchmen in units or as individuals and Heroes altered the makeup of your army or gave them special rules.

    Then have a back and forth unit activation system like Warmachine or Battletech or whatever it was

    So there'd be a reason to keep things as units 'cause they'd all activate together as one action but they could also all be targeted together.

    I think it would balance out nicely with a bit of forethought
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:50 No.8017841

    Well,, the question then is how do we balance unit stats plus equipment cost? I've heard many people cry over options being either too expensive or too cheap for what they do in a particular army.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:53 No.8017883
    Matt Ward here.
    Disregard my fluff, i suck cocks.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:53 No.8017891
    Infinity does have a rather neat system where everything is calculated by using the same formula, meaning that the same options will cost the exact same amount for every army. This way, you don't end up with silly shit like 6 point ork boyz.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:54 No.8017897
    That would be the problem of any wargame. We'll face that issue no matter what system we go with and we will solve it the same way everyone else does (or in GW's case, should): with mathhammer estimates as a base followed by extensive playtesting
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:56 No.8017937
    Bleh. No. Then all the factions would not be particularily different. No numbers advantage, or disadvantage. etc.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:57 No.8017951
    Because we wouldn't want a grey knights horde army!
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)15:57 No.8017956
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    OP sure looks like the guy who designed FATAL
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:02 No.8018030
    What? The only thing it would accomplish is make sure that every single army pays the same amount for the same stats/special rules, which is the very essence of balance. Gaunts would still be cheap and fast, Orks would still be choppy and tough, and Spess Muhreens would still be elites. It's just that they would all have point costs that couldn't be disputed because they would be based on an objective formula, making sure there would be no racial bias.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:03 No.8018039
    Another option I like is just having one template for each race, kinda like Inquisitor almost had. Then you can buy each model a bonus or two to its stats, like upgrading to a nob or a chaos chosen or a chapter master. Then you can buy some equipment and maybe choose some other stuff

    But all of these things are on skill trees and you can only pick one or two trees.

    Then stick in a balanced vehicle design chart to cover all that armoured wheeled/walking/treaded/skimming/fying stuff

    That leaves us with only about a dozen entries to balance.

    We just have to make sure it can scale up well from Inquisitor Warband size to Warhammer Army size. Can't be too hard to make it scalable like that. War of the Rings almost did it briefly.

    So the entries we would have to balance are:

    with upgrades to become anything from a Cadian to an inquisitor to a sister of battle to a techpriest

    maybe this should just be a stat upgrade to human to save space

    Space Marine
    upgrades for both loyalist, chaos and rebel pirate

    upgrades and skill trees for aspects and dark eldar and exodites

    nobs, warbosses etc

    profile changes for upgrades to immortal, destroyer etc

    battlesuit upgrades, lots of tech trees

    Tyranids would probably need at least a few entries but they wouldn't have many skill trees so it might even out space wise.

    Good vehicle design rules and the ability to have a balanced game at 200 or 2,000 points makes or breaks this idea though.
    >> Nephanim 02/10/10(Wed)16:03 No.8018041
    the only thing I like about the Warhammer system is the whole one dice per weapon thing which allows for speedrolls, which allows for a giant amount of weapons to be fired at the same time.

    I'm trying to figure out a way to apply this to Battletech, which I enjoy mechanically for everything except its dice rolling system.

    Any suggestions?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:05 No.8018074
    do you realy beleive banshees suck? A fleet unit that comes with power weapons and I 5 (I 10 on the charge) for 16 points a model.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:07 No.8018103
    Frail. Strength 3. They simply can't put enough hurt into a unit before getting pimp-slapped right back to be a viable choice.
    >> Nephanim 02/10/10(Wed)16:11 No.8018141
    All you're missing is daemons, though you'd likely need a fully seperate base for each of the four Chaos Gods rather than an upgrade tree for each. For Marines, I guess it's fine to just have the four chaos trees, since there can be Chaos marines who are Undivided. I don't recall any Undivided Daemons, though.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:12 No.8018161
    there is nothing else in the game that can put out that many power weapon attacks that cheaply. Assault mariens WISH they could be half as good as banshis.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:14 No.8018187
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    Yeah, you've probably all seen it, but it hasn't been posted yet.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:14 No.8018188
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:17 No.8018229
    Maybe they start as furies and then buy either the bloodletter, daemonette, horror or plaguebearer profiles as upgrades that give access to their respective upgrade trees that let you give the 'letter a juggernaut etc
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:18 No.8018249
    Who cares if they ignore armour saves if they can't score enough wounds?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:18 No.8018253
    But the furies have wings! Maybey the daemon pack from grey knights codex instead?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:20 No.8018274
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:21 No.8018289
    I don't understand why they can't just lose the wings when they change profiles.

    "When upgraded to another type of daemon the fury loses its wings."

    There, done. Crisis averted. Whew!
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:21 No.8018298

    You do not know what trolling is. Please stop using that word. You cannot say that Matt Ward trolls the warhammer players because you do not know if

    a) he takes his job seriously
    b) he actually knows how to design games

    Maybe if he was capable of designing good, balanced game sys
    tems and you knew that he willingly designed shit then you could call him out on being a troll.

    However, you don't know this. Instead, when confronted with something you find disagreable, you simply blurt out "TROLL!!" like the /b/-scrubbing retards that you all are.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:22 No.8018309

    From page 24 of the Space Marine Codex:

    >Chapters in the second category are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and the Raven Guard. These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:22 No.8018314
    shut up troll
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:23 No.8018332
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    ...Get my axe.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:25 No.8018357
    Dear Matt Ward, the Great Khan of Quan Zou called. He wants you to drown in your own shit and then arrange for your corpse to be transported to Chogoris to be urinated on by grox herds.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:25 No.8018358
    Then it wouldn't really be an uppgrade?

    Anyhow, the furies are a example of daemons that aren't aligned to a god. There are others.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:25 No.8018365
    Doom. Fortune for the return attacks.

    I still like Harlies more but they're there to rend the elite melee troops apart, whereas Banshees are more useful against rank-and-file MEQs.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:27 No.8018394
    10 Asault marines get the charge against 10 banshies, asault marines get whiped out in 4 rounds of combat, banshies survive with 5.6 models remaining. If banshies get the charge they win in 3 rounds with 8.48 models left.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:27 No.8018408

    Go to bed Matt Ward.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:28 No.8018415
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    Interesting. Would you excuse me, Marshal, I'll be right back. Just going to sharpen my sword. Plot a course to Ultramar, would you? And put the word out to the rest of the brethren.

    I smell a crusade coming on.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:29 No.8018444
    >Maybe if he was capable of designing good, balanced game systems and you knew that he willingly designed shit then you could call him out on being a troll.

    Unfortunately we know both of these things. Despite its Ultracocksucking, the Space Marines codex is fairly well balanced, proving that he is capable of making balanced books when he decides to.

    We also know he "willingly designs shit" because he has admitted as such in multiple interviews. The "it would be a shame if they weren't" comment about daemons being overpowered being the most obnoxious example. Orcs and Goblins being another on the opposite end of the power level spectrum.

    TL;DR, shut up troll.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:29 No.8018458
    I'll post me orks lata
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:32 No.8018505
    >The third and final group are aberrants, Chapters who, through quirk of gene-seed, mutation or stubbornness, eschew the Codex Astartes in favour of other structural and combat doctrines. Some, such as the Blood Angels and their successors, strive to be worthy of Guilliman's legacy, but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it. Others, such as the Space Wolves and the Black Templars, remain stubbornly independent, looking to their own founder's ways of war and caring little of how they fare in the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few in number and their presence diminishes with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters. Such divergent Chapters play little part in this volume, for this is the tale of the Ultramarines, and all those who follow their example.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:32 No.8018508

    Got any sauce for his interviews?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:33 No.8018525
    What? Yes it would. Replacing bolter, power armour and grenades with terminator armour is an upgrade. You can lose stuff in an upgrade. Especially an upgrade that gives you such good stats as a a khorne daemon would have.

    But fiiiiine. How's this:

    Undivided daemon. May take wings for +X points or be upgraded to one of the following profiles: bloodletter for Y points, daemonette for Z points etc.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:35 No.8018559
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:35 No.8018564
    >Black Templars
    >Aberrant gene-seed
    >Won't even use Librarians because they hate mutants just that much
    What the fuck am I reading?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:35 No.8018566
    I'm not going to do your research for you
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:36 No.8018580
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    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:37 No.8018583
    don't worry they're just calling you "stubbornly independant" the "worthless mutant freak scum" stuff was about the Blood Angels mostly.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:37 No.8018586
    >Few in numbers
    >Implying the Inquisition isn't going apeshit over all the goddamn templars and Space Wolves running around
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:37 No.8018588
    Fuel the hate! Towards GW! TOWARDS VICTORY!
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:39 No.8018604

    >few in number and their presence diminishes with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters.

    That's it, I'm calling a Crusade right now. These slurs on our honour will not stand.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:39 No.8018616
    Fuck you, Matt Ward.

    Quit Games Workshop. Go home. Love your wife and family.

    Be happy. Let us be happy.

    Everyone wins.

    (Well, except orcs and goblins. Fuck you Matt Ward.)
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:40 No.8018618

    Didn't the codex also say the Ultramarines and their successors are becoming increasingly dominant on the galactic stage 'coz Guilliman's gene-seed is almost exclusively used in the creation of new Chapters.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:42 No.8018655
    I mean, what the fuck, Matt Ward? Have you even read the Templar fluff? There's at least several thousands of them, meaning they have the manpower of several chapters combined. And last time I checked, the Crusade was still going strong after ten thousand years.

    Diminishing presence, my ass!
    >> Matt Ward 02/10/10(Wed)16:47 No.8018717
    Well, maybe your chapters wouldent suck so much if they where Ultramarines?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:47 No.8018723
    The waaagh.com released different codexes for each clan.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:49 No.8018748
    is anyone noting all this down?

    we should get rid of the cheese rule that makes any unit that cannot disembark from an exploding veichle die instantly.
    perhaps they could suffer a confined explosion where they suffer d3 times as many hits than normal.

    also hidden message or two would be good to piss GW off EG:

    Games of Warhammer/tg/ are to be played
    Without argument between players, all players
    Should try to have fun, if for example a rule is
    Un-represented or inconvienent the players
    Can choose to proxy or modify the rules.
    Knowledge and common sense
    Should tell you what rules are fair to all players
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:51 No.8018778
    >Wants to prove the Ultramarines actually leave Ultramar
    >Writes about battles on Macragge
    >Ultramarines are the most tactical force in the Imperium
    >Got tricked out of participating in the Heresy
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:54 No.8018832
    Fix Glory Hogs to work only for vehicles within range and LoS, and give them tankhunting when attacking AV14. In return, make them more expencive. Done.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:57 No.8018874
    No, it didn't say that.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:57 No.8018880
    Still a rather shitty anti-tank unit. And make them more expensive when they only get Tankhunters against AV 14, which is rare? Are you insane?

    Remove Glory Hogs, give them Tankhunters, same price.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)16:59 No.8018915
    >Make them suck slightly less.
    >Make them more expensive.

    Fuck no.
    How about Same points cost, remove the must shoot at tanks, give them tank hunters, and make them test for leadership to see if the can shoot/assault another unit instead of a tank IN RANGE AND LINE OF SIGHT.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)17:00 No.8018934
    >Black Templars
    >few in number
    lol WUT
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)17:05 No.8019008
    Twinlink thier current weapons, so they're actually worth their cost. Flashgits fixed.


    A bunch of steps ahead. That said, blood axes don't run fasta, they just have more meks and more vehicles, which are also fasta then their counterparts.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)17:09 No.8019060
    Would overpower them. As they are they still mulch tanks in h2h, and the woah rokkits syndrome + tank hunting normally would give them a unit full of short range assult 1 lascannons as far as anti-vehicle is concerned.

    Actually, why not port them straight from the 3rd. ed 'dex, but with the option for tankhammers and bombsquigs?

    Also, bring back the wargear section? Or at least give ork nobs (both upgrade nobs and nob mobs) and MANz more options.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)17:12 No.8019112

    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)17:12 No.8019113
    "Few in number" could simply mean that the number of divergent Chapters is few. Or that the total number of divergent Marines combined is few compared to the total number of Codex Marines.

    >With the Ultramarines’ gene-seed the favoured foundation for new Chapters, these scions of Guilliman are an ever more dominant force upon the galactic stage.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)17:13 No.8019116
    >Implying these chapters have more marines the-

    Wait, they do. Disregard the greentext.
    >> Quest Lord !!7ls3wo7NoED 02/10/10(Wed)17:17 No.8019167
    We're still working on that. I'm actually the guy who started all that. If /tg/ has a look, feedback would be nice - either in this thread, in a LordQuest thread or in the actual thread in the waaagh. Badmoons are the most complete, followed by blood axes, so they should give a good idea of what the end-goal is like.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)17:25 No.8019270
    you are not Steve Jackson, go away.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)17:26 No.8019281
    Thanks for da clan codexes.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)17:30 No.8019350
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    I like how people take a Codex which is supposed to be utterly biased towards the armies within, and bitch about it like crazy for being biased towards the armies within.

    The Tyranids are about to eat everything, the Orks are utterly unstoppable, the Ultramarines and their successor chapters are everywhere, the Space Wolves are amazing warriors of legend beloved by all Imperial citizens, and the Imperial Guard are the victorious meat and muscle of the Imperium and so on and so on.

    Do you really want your Codex to be written by Eeyore?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)17:34 No.8019401
    If you guys are rewriting warhammer, bring back Malal. Seriously.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)17:35 No.8019408
    Reading the deffskull ones now, looks a bit out of date, with old zappa rules. Love the Scrappa, and the It's Mine! rules, though the wagon should be a battlewagon, IMO, more transport capacity and whatnot. But I'm a noob to the game, so take this with a grain of salt.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)17:36 No.8019427
    While I overall agree, it's codex: Spess mahrenes, not Codex Ultramarines. If it were codex Ultramarines, not very many people would care.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)17:40 No.8019498
    No fucking way. I played afew games with them a while back. Goffs i think. It pretty balanced and I loved the myriad of options they provide.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)17:41 No.8019525
    The projekt started this edition. 'Old' Zappa rules? There was/is no weapon called the Zappa in the last or this official Ork 'dexes. There's the zzap gun, but that's nothing like it. It's close to the old (3rd ed. 'dex) KMB though. The wagon is modular, has options to upgrade the armour and the transport capacity.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)17:45 No.8019584
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    > bring back make-your-own-chapter
    > remove variant chapters
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)17:45 No.8019585
    "No fucking way" as in "Woah"?

    Cheers for that, the Goff'dex needs some work though. Balencewise it seems ok, just needs to be suited up and made codex-y like the BM and BA one. Blood axes are the furthest as far as 'look' of the codexes to be is concerned, Badmoons are the furthest rules wise and content wise though.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)17:45 No.8019590
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    It was originally Codex: Ultramarines. Hell, that's what it was in 2nd Edition. But the book still details the actions and activities of a great many other Chapters.

    Thing is, the Ultramarines are a 'face' chapter. They're the template, so it's best to have a grounding and expand from there. They represent the most basic and all-round element of the list, most of the others represent some manner of specialist doctrine.

    But probably the biggest and most important thing to remember is that unless you're fielding an Ultramarines special character (and the book says "oh hey it's okay to use them as a hero in your own chapter, just be sure to make sure your opponent knows" so it's not a big deal) being the Ultramarines confers no tabletop benefits. People are getting angry about the fluff.

    Hell, now I'm thinking about it, the latest SM Codex has had more non-Ultra-fluff in it than most other incarnations. Doesn't it?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)17:48 No.8019624
    HURP DURP. That's what I get for reading it fast and lazily.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)17:51 No.8019688

    All Hive Fleets want to be like Behemoth and recognise the Swarmlord as their spiritual liege.

    Udda Boyz iz weak and dey can nevar be proppa Goffs, but dem all lissen da Big Warboss real good. (in-universe that's spot on, but you get the point)

    Such aberrant forces play little part in this volume, for this is the tale of the Cadians, and all those who follow their example.
    >> Frazer !!NNiZ5EzzZEM 02/10/10(Wed)17:53 No.8019721

    It does - a lot more than there was was in the 2nd edition Codex Ultramarines, in fact. Still, nerds love nothing more than to get their rage on whenever they see an excuse.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)17:56 No.8019767
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)17:58 No.8019796
    It also has a thousand times more ultramarine dick-suck. Never before has it been alleged that "oh, those poor baby other chapters just wish they could smurf it up, poor white scars."
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)18:01 No.8019831
    Iron hands are also listed as TOTALLY following Ultramarine's example. When they're one of the least codex astares following chapters that doesn't have their own codex. inb4 Codex: Iron Hands.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)18:01 No.8019839
    You're complaining about an element that has been in the 40K lore for a long time, and a turn of phrase that represents the book's bias (as it should) and is countered in the army books of those other forces (as it should).

    There's plenty of examples of armies being represented in ridiculously biased ways in other books, and that's how it should be.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)18:03 No.8019868
    Well aside from their connections to the Adeptus Mechanicus and that not many factions trust them, because they're not ultramarines.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)18:03 No.8019872
    More dick-suck than an entire Codex named after them with all the other chapters getting shoved off into a corner?

    I don't think so.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)18:05 No.8019890
    Disregard that, I suck cocks. There actually a good bit about them in the Purging of Contqual, in which it basically says they hate chaos even more than the smurfs.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)18:07 No.8019912

    The bias against other Founding chapters following the Codex is not countered, and will never be because White Scars, Fists and Raven Guard are not getting a codex, that is their codex.

    What that codex does is exactly the same thing as saying other Hive Fleets are dessicated from crying how they can never be Behemoth.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)18:09 No.8019934
    So does everyone, the smurfs spent the whole horus heresy writing a book.

    Orkz is Orkz first and clanboyz nekstest. Some gits take clan all serious like, the whole tribe ov just one klan. But even them gitz comes on da waaagh! and fights wiv da urvva boyz.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)18:12 No.8019971
    All three chapters are represented in the book, and in none of the entries related to them does it say they suck of the dick of the Ultramarines. Each passage is written in bias to the army being written of. Each Special Character entry is a biased reference to that individual and by proxy their character.

    Seriously, you're trying to find a reason to be insulted just so you can continue hating on something because it's the common identifier. About something that by all accounts has no influence on how the battle on the tabletop plays out.

    Additionally, every force that has ever had an Index Astartes article written for them also has bias in their favour. Compare the stories of the Iron Cage battle between the Iron Warriors and the Imperial Fists when told from each perspective.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)18:19 No.8020076
    >Such aberrant forces play little part in this volume, for this is the tale of the Cadians, and all those who follow their example.

    hahaha, Omg WTF, I wonder how many Imp regiments have never heard of Cadica?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)18:26 No.8020158

    So, entry "Codex Chapters", page 24 is not related to them? The one where they are specifically mentioned and the mention followed by "These chapters can never be smurfs, nevertheless they ever aspire to the teachings and standards of Rowboat (as well as their divergent heritage allows".

    No other codex has that shit. The CSM one has all the Legions, though it fails at representation, and the Eldar codex has all the craftworlds, but no mention of the posterboys in Ulthwe and Black Legion being the premier faction among those. same goes for Guard, Cruddace didn't write that Valhallans and Cadians want to suck Creed's cock.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)18:26 No.8020169
    Apart from one or two special units, what did the BT, SW, BA and DA have that you couldn't do with the Marine codex? That is, before GW decided to make them even more special via fucking thunderwolf cavalry, wolf claw (seriously, they justify the re-roll to hit with the same exact thing that gives normal lightning claw a re-roll to wound) and other shit. Those things were introduced for the sole purpose of making the codexes special enough to justify their existence. Without them it would have been just Codex: Space Marines with new names and special characters.

    Fuck, everyone seems to think Chaos is just fine with one codex covering it, so how the hell are loyalist Marines so special they get 5 codexes? You'd think 10,000 years of sucking Nurgle's cock gives you more diversity than what is ever allowed within the Imperium.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)18:29 No.8020214

    Silly anon, Chaos Gods are smalltimers in comparison to Roboute Guilliman.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)18:37 No.8020308
    How does "Aspire to be like" mean "suck the dick of" exactly? Oh right, because you're feigning offence at something because FLUFF MAKES ME SO ANGRY. Sorry, I forgot that actually getting mentioned in the book for the first fucking time in any substantial way means they are getting shafted.

    We are now at the point where people crying about how horrible Ultramarines are for being written about are now louder and more obnoxious than pro-Space Marine people who think they can crush everything with their pinky finger.

    The Black Templars and Space Wolves would make things confusing if absorbed into a singular Codex and would require their own separate list anyway. They have their own rules, troops, variants the list goes on. They don't fit into things at all.

    Blood Angels have their own rules that would complicate things. The Dark Angels could be eaten back up into the main codex but they do have their own unique array of troops (of sorts).
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)18:43 No.8020370

    Precisely the same argument can be used to justify separate codices Ork Klans and CSM legions. The thing that keeps the variant smurfs rolling out is money, the Wolves do not stand out much now and previously did so even less, whereas the Black Templars basically have few pieces of old equipment choices and some special rules separating them from vanilla marines.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)18:49 No.8020429
    You wrote the "Craftworld Eldar" book right?

    I will hunt you down and fucking kill you! I will remove your knee caps, cover them in haberno and feed them to you!

    Your last sight will be my troll face!

    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)18:50 No.8020437
    That's bullshit and you know it, anon.

    Black Templar got jump pack Marine, so do Vanilla Marines. Tac Marines as Crusaders, Scouts as Neophytes (oh boo-hoo, you can't have them all in one squad, that's too bad), terminators, etc. etc. What's the problem? Can't get the champion? Use a captain with relic blade and shields. Have some creativity, you thankless piece of shit. I tell ya, if Gav was here, he'd get grimdark on your ass for being such a rules lawyer and not being able to work without the restrictive rules.

    Space Wolves. jump-packless assault marines as blood claws... I can't think of anything else. Why can't you just use normal sergeants instead of Wolf Guard units split around? All your conversions will go to ruin? Tell it to the hand.

    Dark Angels? Gimme a break. Apart from getting Troop bikers, which Vanilla Marines get too, you just need to make Troop terminators available and paint them white, and voilá, Deathwing terminators. Oh, the "rules" ain't exactly the same, eh? Well, tough titty. I'm sure my IG is a little pissed about losing this and that with the doctrines, but hey, I got over it, you'll get too. And if you don't, I'm sure GW will still keep making money like a Swiss banker during WW2.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)18:51 No.8020452
    Well, I personally believe there should be more CSM Legions split up into separate books because trying to fit them all into one book made for a badly play-tested mess. I think the Ork Codex does cover the gamut of possibilities for Ork Klans, though. The fact is they could and did amalgamate those.

    I don't know what you mean by "standing out" because the Space Wolves are pretty unique now. You couldn't really make a suitable facsimile using a vanilla marine list. They have unique rules, wargear and force organisation chart fiddling.

    But you are right, they're kept because of money. Space Marine armies are a good money maker for GW because the base template for the army can make a divergent chapter with a few accessories and a different colour scheme. This allows them to spend less money on the production of models and gives them more money they can use to spend on other armies or supplements.

    I believe the CSM Legions could be done in a similar manner and should be done so. I just don't believe that Space Marine chapters should be heaped into one codex because I believe it makes too much of a poorly balanced mess.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)18:58 No.8020509

    It is absolutely certain that variant marines can be fitted into one codex, GW merely needs to put them into a blender like happened with the CSM. The fact that Space Marines sell more, due to being the most advertised army, and consequently getting the most attention from the designers is the only reason they are not smashed into one book.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)18:58 No.8020513
    Your argument is basically "They should be exactly like vanilla armies, you should make do with what you have", which isn't exactly an argument against "amalgamating their rules would make a poorly balanced clusterfuck book that will cost a rather large amount of money", just an alternate solution that isn't really applicable since once you do that, they stop being a separate concept altogether. As for the loss of doctrines and potential crying? Chapter Traits. Hello, it already happened and no one cares.

    These armies have been their own entities for a long time. It's not like IG doctrines have been around since 2nd Edition with their own rules, they were an introduced idea that was since removed and deemed as unneeded (just like Chapter Traits). These are long standing armies that should be preserved, and I think we could do with some more variant codices based on additional armies, that justify the change because of a play-style that cannot be emulated by the existing army.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)19:03 No.8020553
    It is absolutely certain how? The 3rd Edition Chaos Codex was awful, so awful in fact that in attempting to fix it the entire army got over-blunted and became pretty sad.

    And this "Space Marines get advertised the most so they get all the attention and that's why no one buys the other armies as much" is completely ridiculous and pulled out of the arseholes of morons who don't understand how anything involving the entire hobby, business or how tying their shoelaces without strangling themselves works.
    >> Quest Lord !!7ls3wo7NoED 02/10/10(Wed)19:03 No.8020557
    The ork codex lost a whole bunch of things though. Wargear, cyborks, painbosses, skarboyz, looted vehicles (real ones, the lootedwagons are a cop out). The lootas changed a lot, but I'm ok with that, but we effectively lost flash gits as they turned out to be the single most useless pointsink the game has - before options. Options make them usable, but even more of a pointsink.

    We lost some very clan-centric units. Flash gitz for badmoons, looted vehicles and painbossez/cyborks for deffskullz, skarboyz for goffs. Our new 'dex is more flexible and easier to theme around a clan, but the clans themselves don't play as differently as they should unless you devote the list entirely to being that clan. And even then, things don't feel right.

    More variant 'dexes all around IMHO. Particularly Guard and Chaos Spess Moranz though. Guard got shafted by losing the doctrines.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)19:08 No.8020595

    It is the 4th edition CSM treatment Spazz Morons should get, as in eradicate the differences between variant chapters. Worked gameplaywise and the neckbeards who care about shitty fluff are only complainers.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)19:10 No.8020623
    Lots of armies lost their wargear lists in an attempt to streamline things, and honestly you can make up most of those differences and losses with creative use of what you have, but I can understand the sense of loss driving people to want to make those variants.

    The way I see it though, is that those few units don't make up how an army as a whole plays. Where things like the Black Rage or Holy Zeal do directly influence the army's style (especially the latter since you know, you get shot and go wooosh across the board), but the loss of Skarboyz doesn't exactly rob an ork force of being Goffs if the army is still laid out to their battle doctrine and plays in the same way.

    But like I said, the reason why the Space Marines DO get the variant codices is because of the template style of their iconic design that makes it easier to produce models and accessories. Making a variant Imperial Guard army wouldn't work quite the same way, since the only 'template' thing for them is the tanks. You would still have to belt out more unique infantry designs.

    It's not fair, but the Space Marines bring in enough money to allow GW to do things like redo the Dark Eldar line.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)19:15 No.8020684
    But what reasons justify the action? Because people hate that the Space Marines have more books? Chaos Space Marines were always one book, making variant lists inside it caused a great deal of trouble on top of already silly rules (like points cost making a Lord into a Daemon Prince).
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)19:16 No.8020693
    Now you see it.

    Look, I don't really want to limit the Marines, I just want everyone else to get a piece of that action as well. It sucks that CSM and SM are quite alike (Vanilla, SW, BT, DA, BA vs. 4 Gods and Undivided), but get a totally different treatment. Marines get their special rules and units, because they're all so different and all that, while CSM get shafted into one Vanilla list and told "It's the way to do it, man."

    That ain't right. Neither is reducing different Craftworlds and IG Regiments into one vanilla list. Now basically all craftworlds are like made with a single template (Yeah, sure I can still get my Troop Wraithguard and Ranger gallore, but so does every other craftworld, which is like sticking all of the SM codexes into one and having Deathwing Terminators fight side by side with Blood Claws) and all regiments are either Cadians or Catachans, with the small exception of a few special characters, which I believe doesn't really make up for it. I'm pretty certain one outflanking platoon isn't gonna make my army any more Tallarn than what the Vanilla list would.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)19:26 No.8020787
    But see, the variant Space Marine BOOKS have been there for a long time. Hell, back in the day there wasn't even a Codex Space Marines, it was just Ultramarines.

    We're talking about removing well established armies from the game. I don't think that's cool. I don't think people should be punished like that. Squats don't count they never got a 2nd Edition book by the by.

    Variant lists inside of books were removed because what made them variants were often poorly considered rules that either rendered them far too powerful or far too weak.

    Take the Eldar for example. Never have any of the Eldar Craftworlds ever been described as having unique units, merely unique layouts. The only differentiator in the 2nd Edition codex were the Exodites, who aren't Craftworld Eldar. They were able to make it so that these armies were all playable with the one list without needing over-arching rules. It wasn't like they stripped an Eldar Ranger of what it was because an Alaitoc army can no longer stop your units from deploying. The Eldar happen to be able to define their playstyle through the units selected.

    In comparison the Space Marine Variant BOOKS do have unique units and their rules help define their playstyle. You might not think so but that's your flaw for seeing the other single-book armies as having lost something when in fact they didn't lose their ability to vary at all, they just lost external, conflicting and mostly unbalanced rules that meant telling what was and wasn't actually allowed were further blurred.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)19:36 No.8020878
    Yeah, and what if ALL armies, or at least SOME armies had BOOKS as well, and not just A BOOK? You feelin' me now, or do I have to get down on my knees and speak to your other end so you can hear me?

    If you want to get down to splitting hairs, SM chapters are no different from Craftworlds. Sure, one craftworld/chapter gives some unit different guns or uses more of one unit type than the other. Not much else. Once you take the "special rules" away, it's all quite much the same, which is what they did to the Eldar. Craftworld Eldar did have all sorts of rules besides different unit loadouts, but they just went away or get mixed in.

    Why not rebirth them? Fuck, GW has been active on making up new shit (thunderwolf cavalry, the rumored winged Marines in the new BA codex, etc.) so surely they're able to whip some shit together to justify a codex for each Chaos God, one Vanilla Undivided, Codex for Catachans, Tallarn and Krieg, Codex for a few craftworlds (can't fucking spell them), etc.?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)19:38 No.8020900

    Space Marine book does have variant lists, brought via Chapter Tactics, although those are tied to special characters but that doesn't matter, even without pimped flamers and meltas Vulkan is more worth his points than an equivalently geared generic HQ.

    Closest equivalent in the CSM codex is Fabius Bile, who is an incredibly bad choice to take.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)19:46 No.8020969
    It's not a variant list if it can be done within the framework of the existing list. Additionally, CSM and SM codices were written some time apart, between a rulebook change, as well as a shift in the ethos of writing a list when they realised they COULD do this without it being too much of a clusterfuck.

    I would say that should a 5th Edition CSM codex be made (likely), marks of chaos on HQ choices will probably play a similar role as choosing to put a Space Marine Captain on a Bike in order to get Bikes as troops. The CSM codex was an overreaction to the clusterfuck that was the previous one.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)19:47 No.8020973
    I don't see why they couldn't have just made those tactics options for the Chapter Master (Chapter Tactics) and Captain (Combat Tactics).
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)19:54 No.8021053

    I don't see it either, of course it could be speculated that it is this way because the generic HQ's represent Ultramarine successors or something like that.

    They should repeat that with the CSM codex with Death Guard tactics being an option for HQ's with MoN etc, though.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)19:58 No.8021097
    I have said repeatedly that I am all for other books being made so long as they can be justified and profitable (because if they aren't, the hobby suffers).

    What you're missing is that all this variant shit that clusterfucked up the game were only made in 3rd edition. 2nd Edition IG and Eldar and Chaos did not have these things. They functioned without them, they received them, they were badly implemented, they lost them.

    I don't get what's so hard for you to understand. I said I would like to see more armies, but I can see why some haven't been made, and I'm explaining to you why these variant lists are horrible and unnecessary.

    And so you know, justification isn't just "they made a variant list for them once". It has to be needed, it has to be in demand and it has to be profitable in terms of time spent making the book, the art, and production of the models. In case you forget, the making of a new codex is an investment of time and staff, all of which are costs that need to be recouped.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)20:09 No.8021221
    In 3rd 'ed though, wargear was a big part of how I used my army. Tooled warboss and nobs squad, fully 'borked (bionic bonce, cybork body and bionic arm). Squad of cyborks with a painboss made scary. 'Ardboyz and Skarboyz in trukks (I ran KoS). Went fast, broke faces and didn't afraid of nothing.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)20:11 No.8021247

    Forgot to say that the fluff is that goffs are bigger and better at h2h then other orks. But they're not anymore. You just take a generic ork footslogga army, give it chekkz and that's goffz. Want snakebites? Same thing, but more grots, and paint them different. . .
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)20:29 No.8021468
    >>Marines deserve more than one codex because they've always had more than one codex and make money, other armies deserve shit because they've never had a thing and make jack shit.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)22:18 No.8022968
    >>8021247Forgot to say that the fluff is that goffs are bigger and better at h2h then other orks. But they're not anymore. You just take a generic ork footslogga army, give it chekkz and that's goffz. Want snakebites? Same thing, but more grots, and paint them different. . .

    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)22:20 No.8022984
    there any orks that would become good at aiming?

    Kommandos are already sneaky types that wear camo and use blackened knives, their special character is a goddamn Ninjork.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)22:20 No.8022987
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    >>8020623 It's not fair, but the Space Marines bring in enough money to allow GW to do things like make more Space Marines.

    >> MagicJuggler 02/10/10(Wed)22:25 No.8023067
    The idea for an Ork codex I have is something like this:

    There are certain upgrades you can give Ork units, depending on what you take for HQs. As in, each HQ unlocks an upgrade pool, from which a unit can take certain upgrades from. So if you had a Painboss, you could equip units with varied Bionik upgrades or fightin' juices. If you had a Mekboy, certain kustom gadgits could be taken as weapons. If a Warboss, then Skarboyz/Ardboy upgrades. (Seriously. Skarboy bikers. Imagine the awesome). If you took a Weirdboss, you could make some units "Mad"

    If your list had two of an HQ, you could take 2 upgrades from that pool. For example, if you had 2 Warbosses, you could have 'Ard Skarboyz. If you had a Warboss and Weirdboss, you could have 'Ard Madboyz. Etc.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)22:26 No.8023083
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    Back in the 3rd edition codex, Bad Moons Warlord Nazdreg ug Urdgrub had BS 4. And a special rule that allowed an Elites or Troops unit of up to 20 Orks to deep strike or infiltrate.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)22:28 No.8023117

    he was a bad moon though yeah? How does being rich let him deep strike and infiltrate
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)22:30 No.8023136
    He was known for kunnin' and sneaky plans.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)22:37 No.8023269
    >> MagicJuggler 02/10/10(Wed)22:39 No.8023313
    Tellyportaz as an Ork unit upgrade (May deep strike), that you can take if a Mekboss is in your army. Nazdreg lets a unit take Tellyportaz for free. Sound fair?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)22:47 No.8023451
    Check the clanz project, I linkied it earlier. The badmoon list has some rules for Nazdreg to bring him in line with the new ork 'dex and 5th ed. Moar dakka. Moar krumpy. More grub. Cunnin' morker.

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