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  • File : 1270405072.png-(26 KB, 640x448, Shadowrun-Matrix.png)
    26 KB Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)14:17 No.8975844  
    Oye, /tg/,
    So I'm a professional code-monkey that's been introduced to shadowrun. I'm a gun-bunny right now, but I'm going to play a hacker eventually. I'm trying to wrap my head around what the designers where smoking when they made this shit. I'm also trying to figure out just how to play a hacker.

    -The internet, I'm sorry, "matrix" still has the fiber-line backbone that moves the bulk of the traffice across cities and nations. It's maintained by... corporations? and people pay them somehow?
    -The last mile of the internet has been replaced with an ad hoc wireless mesh network which doubles as people's p2p interface with vending machines and ticket booths and whatnot.
    -"cyber-combat" is complete bullshit, but I can accept it as an aspect of the game.
    -AccessID is MAC address
    -Comcode is IP address
    -Hack on the fly is Fuzzing
    -I get encrypting files and traffic, but how the hell does encrypting a node work?
    -Everything is a node? Even, like, my gun?

    Ok, so I'm standing around in a gunfight. I have a list of all active and passive nodes, but those probably aren't the ones of the people shooting us. I scan for hidden nodes and find everything. So there are 14 hidden nodes and they all look alike. There's also chatter going on between them. I pick one at random and analyze it, from a few details I find out it's a piece of headware. I hack in, and force a reboot. That causes the sniper to go blind for a few rounds.

    Is that legit shadowrun gameplay?
    >> Gnollbard !aDIap4MeRg 04/04/10(Sun)14:18 No.8975858
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)14:19 No.8975875
    If you have enough technobabble, it's legit.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)14:22 No.8975930
    This. Really as long as you make it sound possible and quick (so the rest of the team who just want to shoot things) aren't waiting on you the GM should be fairly liberal with the rules.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)14:23 No.8975949
    I have no idea what any of that meant.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)14:25 No.8975973
    enough techobabble?
    Alright then. Sniffing the traffic between the hidden nodes, I record 3 rounds of it. Then I transmit the exact same traffic repeatedly. I'm not sending messages, I'm not subscribing, I'm sending the exact recorded traffic. So if CorpMaster bob sent a txt to CorpMinion "flank to the left, wait until I give the signal". He'll get that same message every round. I'm DOSing their communication channels. It should buy us a few rounds of confusion, screw up their tactics, and slow down the descision making process.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)14:27 No.8976019
    You're golden.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)14:30 No.8976054
    awww shit dude, if I can make that fly then I'm going to have some pure fucking omni-power before the DM nurfs me into oblivion.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)14:30 No.8976060
    The Matrix in shadowrun is complete bullshit, to be honest. With all the rules, it's impossible for anyone to use that isn't a decker/hacker. That was in the third edition, don't know much about the new one. Supposedly it's been simplified and streamlined, and finally allows you to combine deckers and riggers into the hacker class.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)14:30 No.8976068
    I understood all of that...
    >> Og Caveman !!VroGHPf6ypp 04/04/10(Sun)14:32 No.8976082
    >It's maintained by... corporations? and people pay them somehow?

    Og pay corporation to maintain his internet access. This not make sense to you?
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)14:39 No.8976183
    So you pay for each jump between nodes? Because now we have a nebulous internet cloud. ISPs pay ISPs above them to get to sites outside of their network. The tier 1 and 2 internet provides, the people who own and maintain the backbone of the internet, all scratch each other's back with peering. They offer their connections if others will allow them use of theirs.

    Since anyone with a Commlink can connect to the matrix, then there are no ISPs anymore. It's like everywhere is a free hotspot hosted by... who?
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)14:41 No.8976209
    Well, you can, but a node in hidden mode will automatically refuse traffic except from authorized nodes. You'd have to crack their firewall and force the message to display manually.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)14:45 No.8976295
    Fuckin Shadowrun kicks goddamned ass.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)14:46 No.8976306
    From Unwired, the matrix sourcebook you'll want to get if you get into hacking: Chances are, your family, enclave, or arcology already has a Matrix service provider, or MSP. Despite what the ads say, you don’t really need an MSP to get onto the Matrix, your commlink has all the hook-up you need. But MSPs provide you with storage space and a messaging service that will hold on to your messages when you’re offline, not to mention programs (usually Browse class programs and Edit class programs) that you would otherwise have to buy yourself. The more expensive ones let you use agents to do things for you.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)14:47 No.8976335
    One thing an MSP is good for is to get a commcode. You need a commcode if you want people to be able to call you and send you text, image, and voice messages. Some MSPs will give you more than one. If you don’t use an MSP, you can get a commcode from any number of providers.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)14:47 No.8976338
    Right, CorpBoss bob sent that authorization to alice in the original message. I'm re-transmitting that message.

    If it's encrypted, then I don't know what I'm transmitting, but Alice still receives it all the same.

    Now... IF... they're using a series of one-time-pads, or an encryption that incorporates a time-stamp, then the commlink should "hopefully" filter it out automatically. But that's the advanced hackery solutions that the DM assuredly won't know about. I think he's employed as a grocery-boy or something.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)14:49 No.8976377
    Yeah, a lot of it is nonsense, but you know what?

    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)14:51 No.8976413
    Oh alright, they still have an ISP counterpart....

    But wait, you don't need one to get on the matrix? So the problem still persists. Unless enough people use an MSP that the few freeloader are ignored. Yeah, I guess that would make sense.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)14:54 No.8976454
    oh alright then, I whip out my magical missle-dick impaling them for 4d200 boxes of damage.

    What? It's fantasy game right? Well this is my fantasy? What you do mean RULES!?

    Oh, you mean that this is a simulation of a world where the rules of reality are selectivly broken to expand our world-view in an entertaining way. Alright then, I'll roll up a straight fighter. 3d6 in a row, right?
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)14:55 No.8976470
    Authorization in this case meaning the proper access ID, which you'd have to get off the originating node with a matrix perception test, then spend a complex action spoofing every time you want to transmit that signal.

    At least, that's how I'd rule it. But then, I'm not a grocery boy.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)14:58 No.8976516
    A corp enclave is guaranteed to provide an MSP for its citizens, for only a slight garnishing of their wages. Look at all the value we provide! Most wageslaves, even the ones who aren't BigCo employees living in a housing development by BigCo and buying BigCo brand groceries are too indoctrinated to do anything else.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)15:01 No.8976562

    You go to a coffee shop to surf the net: they're paying for internet access, and presumably making it back on coffee sales. If the wi-fi zone is big enough to log on while parked across the street, and isn't secured, that's their problem.

    Also, there are already "free" ISPs out there that run on banner ad revenue.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)15:05 No.8976630
    curious, a thread involving electronics AND shadowrun.

    Ive been reading through the entrys an people seem to sort of get it. Personally i never had a problem with the logic of networks within shadowrun.

    also, dude? 100% correct. Best post this month, i owe you a coke.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)15:09 No.8976694
    . . . CorpBoss has to send his authorization in the message sent to his minion, which would include his accessID. I'm recording all of that. When I transmit the recording, the authorization is already in there.

    and yeah, that makes sense.

    As for spoofing, if I have his accessID, then I can send a command to his eyes to adjust the red-shift, make anything with a speaker play music at full blast, turn off his wired reflexes, impersonate him to other team members, detonate his smart-grendades?

    oye, if I spend some time programming a specific firmware, can I overwrite the brains of his smartlink or something? Like it will broadcast an encrypted alert to me and let me set it to purposely mis-aim. So take two dp away from aiming instead of adding two?
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)15:12 No.8976747

    Shame you have an ignorant ST, I'm sure you could see how brainvs vs brains could result in pretty complex tactics. Of course since it's not only you playing the others would lose out.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)15:13 No.8976751
    i think its fair to assume his eyes are capable of broadcasting some form of signal outwards, yet find it hard to believe they would have a connection inwards. The connection would surely be wired and nothing more.

    the smartlink thing sounds fair if unwired. With a user ID spoof the gun, make it eject clips/shoot/notshoot. However has he is also sending a signal to it with commands id tend to say it'd be more likely to cause "blips" of lost control. Its a GM ruling
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)15:13 No.8976760
    I accept payment in knowledge, trivia, and anecdotes. Preferably non-personal.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)15:14 No.8976776
    I found some alternate matrix rules:

    > I think there was one more link but I lost it

    Has anyone actually tried them?
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)15:14 No.8976780
    ok, is there any reason I can't have a dead-man switch that will physically disconnect me from the net if I don't take a simple action every round to keep it happy?

    That's like, a sure-fired way to escape black-ice. If you can survive 3 passes.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)15:16 No.8976809
    ill happily share knowlege of modern electronics. Trivia will result in hacknied "african or europian?" python jokes.

    certian agents/users can lock out an attempt to disconnect. On the other hand, no, pay the price for a program in cash and pass the craft check and i cant see why not.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)15:20 No.8976876

    Any sane neural interface is gonna have an "antivirus" software/firmware dingus that will automatically jack you out when it detects recognized black ice.

    Of course, up to date databases, spoofing, false positives, yadda yadda yadda.

    But seriously, you're giving the entire net access to your *brain*. There's gonna be security in place.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)15:24 No.8976928
    right, black-ice "jams open" a connection. Whatever that means. But I want a robot arm that will unplug the cable between my head and the commlink unless I send it a signal every round. That's not a software disconnect. That's a hardware air-gap between me and the net.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)15:26 No.8976955
    This would probably give you away. But you could probably program some overextension in whatever replaces the saccades. So when he tries to look at something his eyes keep going further and further in that direction. There's all sorts of things that could cause dizziness and whatnot.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)15:26 No.8976963
    most definately. However if i recall doing that has almost the same effect (if not exactly the same) as black ice. Check the rules, im positive an unexpected unjacking causes a whole heap of owwie
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)15:35 No.8977133
    Alright, so we're about to do a really important run. Can I make a series of, oh, a million 256b one-time-pads for communique between me and my bros?

    Now, one-time-pads are MATHEMATICALLY impenetrable to cryptanalysis. It's is literally unbreakable. The requirement being that you have to be able to get a copy of the pads to everyone involved and once you use one, you can't use it again.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)15:36 No.8977136
    So, what if I want to not have all of my cyberware open to hacking from the internet? What would that cost?
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)15:37 No.8977155

    Turn wireless connectivity off
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)15:38 No.8977184
    Access to the internet.
    Best way to protect yourself is not be a part of it.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)15:39 No.8977211
    give that man a coke! Totally. Either turn your PAN off, or make sure the connection to your cyberlimb is directly wired to your brain, and your brain cant be "gotten into".

    sure. As the gm id occasionally shout "NUMBER!" and demand everyone recall how many pads in you all are, otherwise said plan wont work.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)15:50 No.8977385
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)16:02 No.8977566
    How easy would it be to take out the internet?
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)16:05 No.8977613

    If you're playing 4E, not very, considering that already happened once.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)16:34 No.8978125
    taking out a distributed network like the internet we have today or the matrix of shadowrun would be very hard. Global nuclear war or global virus sort of hard.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)16:36 No.8978142
    >> Alter Iris 04/04/10(Sun)16:49 No.8978375
         File1270414194.gif-(15 KB, 290x224, evangelion simpsons.gif)
    15 KB
    So, basically any S.T.A.L.K.E.R. with an AK-74 would be the biggest threat to a shadowrunner? No equipment to hack, no sights to disable, no corp card to track? And they'd have experience dealing with "magic" from the zone, so mages would still have a hard time?

    And could you use rivets to detect mages?
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)16:51 No.8978400
    theres something to be said for that. they would atleast be capable of avoiding the pitfalls of technology relience, but obviously will be out gunned and outplayed lacking any of the settings advantages.

    and sure, i mean, throw a bolt at dude, he says ouch, hes magic, right?
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)16:52 No.8978418

    You underestimate the power of the bolt
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)16:54 No.8978469
    No, it isn't. In Shadowrun, the matrix isn't wireless. In Fourth Edition, it is, but that isn't Shadowrun anymore.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)16:56 No.8978503
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)16:57 No.8978527
    Wow, there's even edition trolls for shadowrun?

    They changed, what? Init passes and the basic dice system.

    Why praytell is 4th ed dead to you?
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)16:59 No.8978542

    Not 80s enough
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)17:01 No.8978579
    Mainly because of the Crash 2.0/wireless matrix bullshit. Raping a setting sideways is always a bad idea. Oh, and the new character sheets look retarded. They pulled a full WotC/WW by throwing away all the good parts.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)17:02 No.8978603
    Ex-fucking-actly. I'm running an all out 1980s cyberpunk campaign right now.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)17:06 No.8978657
    not enough big hair and wailing guitars?

    So there was a matrix blackout. Now shit is wireless. Is that really that horrendous? Do you really want your cyber-samurai with a mono-filiment-chainsaw-sword to have to get up, walk over, and pick up a TELEPHONE!?

    The 1800's called, Edison wants his telegraph to be the sole means of communication in a post-singularity high-tech society.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)17:07 No.8978673
    wait wait wait, so you guys perfer the alternative vision of the future to the ACTUAL future we're experiencing right now?
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)17:17 No.8978846
    Well, yes - because cyberpunk is 1980s, and Shadowrun is cyberpunk with fantasy, not "post-singularity high tech".
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)17:22 No.8978941
         File1270416120.jpg-(41 KB, 300x300, phone cord.jpg)
    41 KB
    If you don't have at least one of these dangling from your skull, you aren't playing Shadowrun.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)17:28 No.8979056
    cyber-punk is 80's? That's like saying science fiction is 50's and died with A.C. clark. Now, granted, he was a master of hard/high/non-bullshitty science fiction, but it's not like that genre, or even that paticular style of genre, is rooted in the 50's.

    Just accept that YOU'RE from the 80's and you want to stay there. That's fine, run an 80's themed game if you want. But you don't hold the keys to defining "cyberpunk".
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)17:33 No.8979123
    One time pad encryption is only unbreakable if the pads are TRULY random. Otherwise if you know the algorithm that was used to generate the pad in the first place, or can guess it (or even just tendencies that it has, like generating a specific number more often than a truly random system would), you have an avenue of attack.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)17:39 No.8979224
         File1270417179.gif-(298 KB, 491x710, 1258170657001.gif)
    298 KB
    From what I read they made it so that wireless cyberware usually has "pretty heavy firewalls" in terms of game mechanics (high difficulty numbers to hack) and operates only on a short range without direct matrix access.

    I guess that is to prevent a hacker that is cooped up with tons of hardware safely back in base from running a different game seperated from the rest of the runner team (a problem earlier editions had).

    Most electronic things have ratings for success tests, so it's relatively trivial to fuck up the comlink of say... Punkass gangboss "Big Pink"s Radio Shack(tm) day glo pink Partayleenk(tm) (now also in in troll size, so everyone can party with Partayleenk(tm)!).

    On the other hand the difficulty of hacking security personel comlinks is proportional to the money spent on them in general.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)17:45 No.8979333
    Even if they're short range without direct matrix access only, there's no reason your team's hacker couldn't access them remotely by using one of the team that's actually physically present as a proxy. Presumably the team-member has a matrix connection and if he's willing to let the other guy route through him, you're golden.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)17:46 No.8979337
    To elaborate some more...

    I'd expect some consistency from the GM in regard of scaling difficulty.

    Like, don't make the equipment of cheap "external help" that are only armed with pistols unhackable or have a state of the art cyber combat monster get its brain hacked by an unskilled guy with freeware level 1 programs.

    Of course it's interesting when things aren't symetrical, like stupid Big Pink and his gang being a match for most razorboys, but easily confused by a smart hacker.

    But most SR GMs forget that all the sci fi and fantasy stuff has been around quite long in the world and it's all adapted. Just because the GM didn't think of obvious exploit possibilities for mages and hackers doesn't mean people in the world of SR didn't.

    In the sixth world drive throughs use encryption because there have been thousands of cocky kids that fucked around with the com system by now (of course the encryption is only good enough to prevent more revenue loss from kids than the system itself costs).

    It's similar with magical security.
    It's unrealistic for an outfit that can only afford unwired guys with pistols to have a mage on the payroll, but they can propably afford a contract where they get monthly astral checks by a watcher spirit and a hotline to consult a mage if the need arises.
    If enough money is on the line they can rent the mage for astral intervention, but the security chief would have to answer to the board if it was a false alarm or the cost outweighted the possible losses.

    Scaling corporate encounters in SR can be beautifully done with money as measurment for EVERYTHING.

    I don't mean to discourage players from having brilliant ideas with what to do with their powers, just an appeal to GMs not to make it too easy for their players and eliminate all challenge.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)17:53 No.8979452
    Possible, but leaves the player wide open for a corp hacker to fuck him good, though.

    From what I remember reading in 4th edition they didn't make it impossible to hack cyberware, but it's pretty difficult (cheap second hand ware is easier to hack since it propably runs on cheap pirated firmware and cracked systems).

    Best opportunity for cyberware shennanigans is when the ware is jacked into an external system for maintenance and is vulnerable to outside influence (just HOW MUCH do you trust your Street Doc?)
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)17:57 No.8979524
    He's only as vulnerable as any other person connecting to the matrix is, man. He doesn't even have to be listening for incoming connections, he can deliberately initiate the connection to home himself and that's the most major security problem with the idea over and done with.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)18:25 No.8980041
    >He's only as vulnerable as any other person connecting to the matrix is, man.


    And any person hacking into corporate security can expect to get attention by matrix security.

    From the game mechanics view it's a question of the hackers buddy com link security rating for his connection to the hacker or his short range system that is being used to gain access.

    If a program is expensive enough, the deck is good enough and the hacker is skilled enough you can hack it.

    It's just the games mechanical explanation for finding loopholes in protocols and exploits in software.

    So a hacker would need to beef up its "mules" security as well as his own so the mule isn't the weakest link.
    Otherwise the corp hacker just ignores the encrypted line between the hacker and the mule and goes for the mules local systems.

    Cheap equipment with low ratings could be explained that the corp hacker just gains access through a weakness in the cheap music player that the mule has installed to listen to goblin rock 24-7.

    Now it could be really fun and interesting if the remote runner hacker and the corp hacker would start dishing it out electronicially inside the mules hardware...
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)18:31 No.8980131

    Sorry, I formulated badly.

    The hacker isn't extra vulnerable, the guy he is routing through is.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)18:38 No.8980241
    I knew you didn't mean the hacker. I suppose from a mechanical perspective you'd have to do something like this to make it fair, but realistically, it would be quite easy to design a system that was pretty much impenetrable and allowed two specific people to communicate with ease. Although it would be possible to disrupt the connection and prevent them talking, it wouldn't do anything to make them more vulnerable.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)18:47 No.8980383
    Unless you go out of your way, there are no wired connections for the robot arm to pull, as most Hackers use headware commlinks. Pretty easily solved by turning off your headware commlink's radio and using a datajack with a wired connection to an external commlink, or have a simless headware commlink that connects to an external sim module, and then back... though I think you would need two datajacks one each for the output and the input for the sim module. In anycase, I have always been fond of making a byzantine labyrinth of nested commlinks to serve various purposes, including acting as honeypots and tarpits.

    As mentioned by >>8976928
    Regardless of how you get the deadman switch
    to pull the plug, you will suffer Dumpshock. Damage is 5S for cold sim and 5P for hot sim, resisted with Willpower + Biofeedback Filter. Even then you will be left with a -2 dice pool penalty for a number of Minutes afterwards.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)18:50 No.8980431

    Yeah, the hacker isn't an idiot but neither are the corporate security people.

    The same secure connections apply to the security guys camera eyes and his bosses system.

    So rolls are required to see who has the latest software and/or knows how about exploits.

    Doesn't mean that creative thinking doesn't get rewarded and the dice rule everything.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)19:01 No.8980618
    What uses did SR players find for hackers aside from legwork, camera disabling and opening maglocks?

    Hacking someones cyberware is pretty difficult so I'll mostly dismiss the "cyberware user debuffer" role.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 04/04/10(Sun)19:08 No.8980756

    A lot of it comes down to covering your tracks. Not just cams, but most of any kind of sensor has some electronics that can be fucked with. Also, disabling drones is key, although riggers can do a bit of that too. There's the fact that a lot of jobs require a datasteal. Finally, ever tried hacking GridGuide? There are so many reasons to.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)19:57 No.8981658

    I play the hacker in our SRgame. And, uh, well, basically you want to throw all your real-world knowledge out the window when dealing with the Matrix. Trying to Logic it up is the path to Sorrow. Also pick up Unwired, pronto. It fixes and clarifies so many small things, like signals encryption, jamming on the fly, and Agent Smithing.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)19:58 No.8981687
    A hacker and a face make for a good team.

    Money laundry and secure communication with connections enables a runner group to sell a lot of hot data that they skimmed additionally from successful runs without getting caught easily.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)20:03 No.8981778
    Also use the Anniversary edition rules. It changes a lot of stupid extended Combat Turn rules to complex actions, which makes hacking MUCH less of a Pizza game. As in 'oh, hey everyone, the hacker's doing something, go order pizza and shit around on the x-box'.

    If you have any specific questions, I'd be happy to answer them. (also, the Dumpshock forums are handy for this kind of thing).

    In your example: You should notify your GM your Analyzer program is running in Automatic mode, analyzing and rendering each node he runs across.

    FIRST: MATRIX PERCEPTION IS IMPORTANT! PERIOD PERIOD PERIOD. I cannot emphasize this enough. Each hit also lets you find out a pertinent piece of information about your target. AccessID. Node Type. Programs running. Rating of one Matrix Stat(Like Firewall! ), or even how much damage it's taken, or what its connected to.

    In your eample, I would have scanned for hidden nodes, let my analyzer chug on everything not running analyze, and then spoof all Smartlink nodes to Reboot.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 04/04/10(Sun)20:14 No.8982018

    Dumpshock may, in fact, have more trolling than /tg/ (although they come down hard on edition wars), but they do know their shit when it comes to the rules.


    Yeah, the actual CSci major playing in my game plays magicians so he can stay as far away from SR's Matrix as possible. Between my lack of computer knowledge and the writers' lack of computer knowledge, it drives him up the wall.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)20:32 No.8982376

    Handwave everything by explaining that it's a different method of computer engineering compared to ours (I think the first big crash happened in early 2K in SRs lore).

    It's like parallel evolution, bats and birds both fly with wings and eat insects, but they are radically different species, even though they are somewhat similar.

    Now that I think about it, all that anachronistic 80's stuff from earlier editions is explained by the huge setback in IT by the big crash.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)20:47 No.8982615

    You want to know what a good hacker brings to the table?

    They spy on everyone. They hack the johnson's commlink during the meeting. They make sure encryption stays up during important comm calls. With the pervasiveness of wireless in SR4, they can social-engineer like a madman.

    They worm their way into tacnets, snuffing out enemy locations and loadouts. They disable drones, jack them from underneath the enemy with jamming, and then pave the way in our out with them. They can turn enemies into assets by hitting their brain with psychotropic programs.

    They keep the team from being traced-and-burned. They save you from your dumb mage who couldn't afford a commlink with a firewall greater than 1 running a tacnet on it. They tell you who's who, what's what, and if they don't know, they can probably find out - or find someone who does. They get you pizza for free, and can sometimes wave away your rent if you do them a favor.

    If you think hackers are useless, then you're not thinking clever enough - or your DM is a shitbrick who doesn't give two cents about using the matrix in his game.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 04/04/10(Sun)21:01 No.8982917

    Honestly, I think I'm enjoying rubbing Matrix voodoo in his face too much. We've been running Emergence over the last year, and it's been like one big trollfest directed at him. Although we've gotten some great roleplay and tension in between his Islamic radical gunslinger chick who wants to purge the technomancers, and the Maya Zapatista shaman with a pro-TM bent. Zapatista-chan has finally set up a plot against her, after a lot of deniable backstabbing back and forth, that should result in her being ostracized by her NIJ wannabe homies (NIJ girl doesn't know she's an adept, and Zapatista-chan is subtly outing her, enraged that NIJ girl sold out Zapatista-chan's TM friend). It's been good times.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)21:08 No.8983056

    I have to admit, that sound rather funny. I laughed.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)21:16 No.8983225
    The frustrating part of being specialised in a roleplaying game about something you're passionate about is this:
    'Blood loss? Well I have zero gear, so I call for emergency aid. I apply pressure, improvise a dressing and elevate. If he starts to look really fucked, i'm going to restrict the blood flow vi-'
    'Make a Heal check'
    'He's stable'
    'But I don't have anywhere near the knowledge or equipme-'
    'Seriously, he just needs a few hours of rest'

    This will happen, this will have to happen. If you've got the patience to forget about it and relax though, it's just as valid a character option.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)21:20 No.8983315
    New Sr4 GM here, I could use a lot of this, especially when explaining it to my players

    Should I try to use sup/tg/ or easymodo to archive this?
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)21:27 No.8983442

    It helps if you think of it as a cartoon. Take the Matrix about as srsly as you take the existance of Orks and wizards. There are "gritty realism" systems that can handle a Sixth World type setting. Somewhere. Shadowrun itself just isn't one of them.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)21:28 No.8983479

    suptg, given that this is moar /tg/-related than most of the threds archived there.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 04/04/10(Sun)21:30 No.8983524

    If you just want the actual helpful parts, why not just save as web page?


    For me it's linguistics. Most of it SR actually does a good job of. Like, linguasofts for language teachers would go a long, long ways towards explaining the prevalence of Native languages that are in bad shape now, not to mention languages that don't exist yet, like Sperethiel. But a few things make me rage.

    For instance, the bounty hunter in the core book's native language is listed as "Sioux". That's fucking great, is he a Nakota, Lakota, Dakota speaker, what? Cause they won't have an easy time understanding each other, let alone someone speaking something more distantly related, like Crow. Granted, they also have someone whose language is listed as Arabic in the core book, and that brings up the same issues. I think they have a damn broad idea of what a language is for intelligibility purposes.

    And another: Where the fuck are all the Navajo speakers in Pueblo? Hopi and Zuni getting bigger I can accept, even if they're only at a thousand or so speakers each right now, because between the cultural revival and the linguasofts, a lot can get handwaved. But there are a hundred times that many Navajo speakers right now. Where the fuck did they all go? Even if the tribe's less politically powerful in Pueblo, they should have at least a fairly potent linguistic presence because of their stronger state now and the linguasoft/cultural revival angle.

    Argh. Anyways, my point is, anybody's field is going to have points where Shadowrun doesn't agree with it, unless you're like, a pure mathematician or something. Maybe not even then.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)21:49 No.8983875
    > If you just want the actual helpful parts, why not just save as web page?

    I'd rather not miss anything
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 04/04/10(Sun)22:09 No.8984340

    Well, I'll put a request in to sup/tg/ then.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)22:15 No.8984491
    Just play 4th edition.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)22:18 No.8984564

    I already did it, vote it up if you want to help
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)22:23 No.8984688
    Eh...considering the way people moved together, and things change, it's possible a lot of the events could have, if not eliminated or minimalized the numbers of speakers of various languages, then at least forced, say, a number of similar languages to lump into one language. The way in standard fantasy 'common' is an amalgam of a bunch of different dialects and such. Particularly considering that spoken languages must adapt and be dynamic.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)22:23 No.8984707
    Libya unleashes a chemical weapon against Isreal. Isreal responds with a nuclear strike that destroys half of Libya's cities.
    In retaliation for the Shiloh affair, the U.S. government passes the Re-Education and Relocation Act, authorizing the detention of thousands of Native Americans in concentration camps (euphemistically known as "reeducation centers.")
    First outbreak of Virally Induced Toxic Allergy Syndrome (VITAS), which kills 25 percecnt of the world's population before the year's end.
    Ghost Dancers announce the formation of the Native American Nations (NAN), with the Sovereign Tribal Councel at its head. The Dancers claim responsibility for the eruption of Redondo Peak in New Mexico; Los Alamos is buried under 100 meters of ash. A federal force sent in to retaliate is destroyed by tornadoes called down by the Ghost Dancers.
    The United Free Republic of Ireland is established, while the white-controlled government of Africa collapses.
    New U.S. President William Jarma issues the infamous Resolutions Act, sanctioning the extermination of all Native American tribes. In responce, the Indians began the Great Ghost Dance. Freak weather and other uncanny events destroy or disrupt U.S. military bases hosting troops slated for use in the Resolution Action. On August 17 in responce to the Ghost Dancers' growing power, Mount Hood, Mount Ranier, Mount St. Helens, and Mount Adams erupt simultaneously just as government troops are finally about to begin their attack.
    These are followed by a metamorphosis of 10% of the world's population, a year later followed by the extermination of another 10% of the world's population.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)22:28 No.8984806
    well shadow run was written int he 80s even before there was wide spread use of what we now call the world wide web...at the time there was prodigy and a couple of other very smaller net providers. we were running on 2400k baud modems on dial up

    id say back the fuck off and roll with it. they were just maing shit up at the time.
    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 04/04/10(Sun)22:40 No.8985155

    Yeah, I tend to take a rolling pin to a lot of the early fluff, to be honest.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)22:50 No.8985387
    And thats the good thing about playing rpgs. You can take what you want and leave what you don't.

    But considering (at least according to wikipedia) that most of those languages aren't spoken by 1% of 1% of the world's population, it can explain their absence in the wake of 35% of the world dying in just over a decade.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)23:00 No.8985609

    Yeah, the history was already messed up during the 90's.

    I always enjoyed speculating with my friends what our real selves would be doing in the 40s ,though.

    Geriatric cyber squad, running the shadows to afford leonization treatment was the consensus.
    We'd have our hideout in a retirement home.

    Also as goblinization starts happening be prepared and write history as the first makers of metahuman porn.
    >> Anonymous 04/04/10(Sun)23:35 No.8986456
    The outdated nature of previous Shadowrun versions is the main reason I'm a big fan of 4th edition. It revises all of the technology to be more in line with what we'd expect nowadays. Memory space becomes a non-issue, wireless connection is the norm, etc. As a result, not only does it feel more like an actual high-tech world, but hacker characters are more able to interact with other members of the party. In previous editions, since decking took so much dedicated time on its own, we'd just all agree to not have any deckers at all in the party.
    >> Anonymous 04/05/10(Mon)01:10 No.8988343
    Thing is, I always loved the deliciously clunky feel of 80s-style Shadowrun. I preferred it to the shinier feel of the current one, because to me, cyberpunk is Classic Gibson and the various anthologies like Burning Chrome.

    To me, the shinier ones are more like postcyberpunk.

    But then, that's me.
    >> Anonymous 04/05/10(Mon)01:22 No.8988600

    Well, the latest editions are full of shit too anyway.

    I mean... metal storm handguns aren't even any form of better than a normal one.

    Sorry, what?
    >> Anonymous 04/05/10(Mon)01:25 No.8988637

    Oh lord, not this discussion again.
    >> Anonymous 04/05/10(Mon)01:25 No.8988643
         File1270445123.jpg-(29 KB, 640x400, 1170368906232.jpg)
    29 KB
    Protip: Don't try and make sense of it.

    4th Edtion makes the weird psudeo internet shit even worse and more confusing then previous editions.

    Yes, everything you mentioned is legit.

    You have, in one paragrapgh, summed up why 3rd ED players hate 4th ED.

    >> SR4rry !p28NxRuKMo 04/05/10(Mon)01:26 No.8988658

    This is pretty much my reasoning as well. It seems much less anachronistic a future. I'll dabble in the 80s aesthetic, the day-glow mohawks and Streets of Rage feel have their place in my heart, but I'm not fundamentally married to it, because I don't want it to be a Zeerust future. Thematically speaking, I want it to be OUR future, and as such to make the players think about all those issues of corporate control and marginalized people in terms of our own world as well, not in terms of something that could have happened but as something that still could and is.

    Not to mention the improvements in the whole "while hacker hacks, we order pizza!"
    >> Anonymous 04/05/10(Mon)01:30 No.8988715
    I looked into Shadowrun before I read Gibson in the early 90s. And I've always enjoyed Shadowrun's cyberpunk more than Gibson's. I feel like Gibson's (at the risk of paraphrasing FG) insists upon itself. It's beautiful and written intelligently and as a whole pretentious. With Shadowrun you have masterminds and art, street samurai and sometimes just mindless blowing shit up.

    Then you have dragons and magic, just adding infinite aspects to it.
    >> Anonymous 04/05/10(Mon)04:42 No.8991725

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