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  • File : 1297237912.png-(278 KB, 364x568, Emperor's Nightmare Battlegroup Primus.png)
    278 KB Emperor's Nightmare thread #5 Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)02:51 No.13835080  

    Current topics of discussion are:
    1. Hey wait... what about Terminators. We haven't so much as spoken about them?
    2. Icelus Pattern dreadnoughts. Tactical snipers, Shock and awe Assaulters, Black ops specialists. We can refine their rules for Deathwatch and we are also looking for any drawfriends who want to make more sketches of Icelus Dreadnoughts with various equipment. A drawing of our Venerable Brother Gavroche especially.

    Relivant information will be reposted in this thread shortly.

    Carry on res/tg/guardians!
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)02:54 No.13835108
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    Guess ya beat me to the punch.

    Owlglass would been a better OP picture, a lot of people don't seem to realize it exists.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)02:56 No.13835121
    On the subject of Terminators, perhaps they are particularly advanced/experienced Dreamwalkers. They are sent to the Night Owls so that they may spend a greater deal of their time battling in the Warp, with their combat abilities called on only in times of great need.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)02:58 No.13835136
    Terminators? They'd all belong to the Primus battlegroup; Terminators are hardly subtle. In return Secundus gets the likes of Sternguard Veterans or something.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)02:59 No.13835143
    It's good to have as the second post too. It'll get a lot of attention now.

    Stealth terminators would be something else but you can pull of some crazy things with judicial application of stummers.
    >> Ekoi !PpcsYfrVrw 02/09/11(Wed)03:06 No.13835193
    Hi there, guy who made this emblem.

    I saw the art of it applied to the actual armor and it looks pretty boss. In fact all of the art produced for this project so far has been awesome.

    Seeing as we seem to be using the crested version of the emblem, I think it might be a good idea to remove the non-crested version of the owlglass from the image to prevent possible confusion.

    (Also, if anyone has better/other ideas for the chapter's emblem, then by all means post 'em.)
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)03:12 No.13835246
    Current Deathwatch crunch notes on the Icelus Pattern Dreadnought chassis:

    22 AP all round
    60 Strength
    40 Agility

    Three Hard points for weapons: Each arm may mount one of the following weapons: Lightning claw, thunder hammer, power fist, chain fist, storm shield, combi-bolter, storm bolter.

    The third hard point is a MIU-linked shoulder mounted Astartes Sniper Rifle,

    Additionally the chassis incorperates utility and optical mechadendrites, Chameleoline Coating (Counts as Chameleoline Cloak, +20 to Concealment tests and shadowing. The wearer counts as one range bracket further if standing still), multiple redundant Stummers (+30 to Silent Move), Preysense Mask, Cooling Capillaries (covering joints and armor to keep them from coming up on IR sensors). Radar jamming equipment, a back full of sensor spines, a warp beacon and a concealed servo skull (incorperating a stummer and autosense links.)

    Sprint, Sonar Sense

    The Shoulder-mounted Astartes sniper rifle may be replaced with a grenade launcher or plasma gun, or with a meltagun, flamer or Astartes combat shotgun for close assaults. Heavy weapons may be mounted to this hard point instead but the Icelus will no longer be able to Sprint and will count as Agility 20.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 02/09/11(Wed)03:13 No.13835249
    We're on thread 5 now?
    6 if you count writefaggotry?

    Jesus...never thought it would come to this.

    Terminators has been pretty standard fare.
    I think an over-reliance on stummers is a bad road to go down. On the same note, I'm not completely sold on the idea of stealth dreads. It's a cool idea, but the original idea was that dread would take on the heavy support burden with Devastators being a no go.

    Just trying to be a dissenting voice for the sake of discussion and help make sure things don't get too out of hand.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)03:15 No.13835278
    Re: Terminators, from the last thread:

    They might be less First Company--or more accurately, deployed alongside each company to take the place of Devastators. Most would probably be in the Shock and Awe camp. Not to say there are no stealth terminators--two words you do not want to hear if they're sortied against you.
    I would also say that Sleepless marines are never Terminators--the armor is too valuable and powerful, and they're much too dangerous. They likely screen candidates, and wait for longtime veterans rather than anyone with the Crux Terminatus.
    In addition, if a Terminator starts showing signs of going Sleepless, he's out.
    Understandable, but given that there's a higher-than-average number of dreadnoughts, there are enough that there can be a handful of the stealth-specialists.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 02/09/11(Wed)03:18 No.13835305
    Understandable, as long as they have a "Relic" status of some sort.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)03:20 No.13835322

    The Icelos/Heresy Era dreadnoughts don't necessarily all have to be dedicated stealth units. Others could be fire-support units intended to substitute for Devastator teams. They're lighter and faster than a normal Dread, more suited for keeping up with advances.

    I'm picture one with a shoulder mounted assault cannon or heavy bolter, with flamers or storm bolters slung under each arm.

    I agree stealthnoughts should be very rare and special.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)03:23 No.13835349
    I think the terminators should be a strictly battlegroup Primus unit. What better platform is there to display both Shock and Awe and Pride in your colours?

    Besides I think most marines in Secundus would refuse the honours of wearing a terminator suit, they would just prefer to work in their standard armour since it really is more suitable for what they do.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)03:25 No.13835373
    Well no worries about that then. They've been fluffed as each being fully master crafted part by part by the Master of the Forge and the chapter's senior techmarines. It's all collected on the wiki now.

    They're technically just incredibly well built heresy era dreadnoughts with a bunch of additional systems added and each part hand crafted.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)03:26 No.13835385
    >It's a cool idea, but the original idea was that dread would take on the heavy support burden with Devastators being a no go.

    As far as I understand it they rely on a lot of dreadnoughts. The Primus dreadnoughts tend to be of the standard patterns and provide the fire support role with their assortment of very big guns.

    But those that served with secundus and were interred sometimes stay with that battlegroup. Those dreadnoughts tend to be the Icelus pattern "stealthnought" in their myriad configurations basically taking the place of terminators that are expressely assigned to primus.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)03:31 No.13835433
    ... Mardi Gras marine?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)03:33 No.13835446
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    I see what you did there.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)03:34 No.13835452
    Wouldn't Terminators fit really well with the stealth-trope? I mean, infiltrating troops placing teleporter beacons in crucial locations so help can arrive with overwhelming force when needed sounds like a viable tactic.

    After all, Space Marines can't hide in colour coded cardboard boxes to escape detection...
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)03:38 No.13835477
    The wiki makes mention of Tactical and Assault variants. The concept art we have right now involving a tau getting killed is most certainly a badass Assault variant.

    Venerable Brother Gavroche is clad in the first of these master-crafted heresy era dreadnought suits. A unique tactical variant armed with both an Astartes sniper rifle and grenade launcher mounted on the shoulder. Frequently equipping himself with a storm shield and chainfist he engages in guerrilla warfare with unmatched skill. He is the quintessential stealth dreadnought.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)03:38 No.13835479

    But after that then what, Terminators are huge, cumbersome, slow, and anything but subtle. The teleporting gimmick seems to be their only case for being allowed in Secundus, when it fits much better if they're teleported in and rip shit up like Primus would. If you have terminators, you don't want to assign them to do things scouts or tactical marines could also perform, you want to make them do things that the other two can't.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)03:41 No.13835501
    Fair enough--and the teleport homer thing is a good idea.
    When the Primus and Secundus groups work in tandem, it is usually on a target that requires both stealth and overwhelming force. An advance force infiltrates the enemy location, distributing numerous teleport homers among the area. On a go-signal, they initiate a heavy strike, and while fire is drawn to their ambush, the terminators of the Primus battlegroup warp in, and begin the reaping.
    We need a name for this specialized pincer, if people like it.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)03:43 No.13835520
    Stealth can be operational as well as purely tactical. See maskirovka.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)03:48 No.13835548
    Yeah I'm seeing pretty much all of the chapter's terminators in Primus. The Dawn is just much more aggressive. Terminators make more sense there.

    Secundus definitely has a squad of "just in case" thunder hammer terminators under the command of their Lord Adjutant though.

    Secundus would have sternguard veterans.

    Both have squads of riflemen dreads acting as devastators in their battle companies.

    Tactical Icelus Dreadnoughts would just about always wind up deployed alongside Secundus while Assault Icelus Dreadnoughts would kick ass and take names at Primus drop zones.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)03:52 No.13835571
    After that there should be nothing left. You've just pulled your ace card, stealth went out the window and someone somewhere got smacked over the head for getting spotted.
    When not used as last resort it's a "they set us up the bomb" stratagem, viable only for take & hold missions, the destruction of specific targets or for ambushes of a very elaborate and destructive sort.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)03:53 No.13835580
    Actually, given that the companies complement eachother so well I expect companies are quite often paired up when the chapter deploys en masse for a campaign.

    Four pincer groups of Dawn and Dusk companies supported by the Night Owls, the Sleepless and the Scout company.
    >> MechCommander !!AVzrZyWDzjV 02/09/11(Wed)03:53 No.13835581
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    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)04:04 No.13835668
    Okay so most chapters, if they're lucky, can equip most of their first company with terminator armour should the need arise.

    The same facilities that give the Nightmares the means to build their dreadnoughts allow them to reconstruct and maintain even the most badly damaged terminator armour as well. Instead of assigning all the suits to one company however the nightmares split them up over the Primus Battlegroup. Each of the four Dawn companies gets 20 suits of terminator armour and the Lord Adjutant of Secundus Battlegroup gets a personal bodyguard of ten thunder hammer terminators for a total of ninty suits in the chapter armoury.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)04:21 No.13835791
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    Question, how are we going about having some 'The Sandman" influence in this chapter. The Sandman is a comic book series written by Neil Gaiman and published by DC Comics. Beginning with issue #47, it was placed under the imprint Vertigo. It chronicles the adventures of Dream of The Endless, who rules over the world of dreams, in 75 issues. It was published from 1989 until 1996. Gaiman's contract stipulated that the series would end when he left it.

    How does this not fit flawlessly with this chapter?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)04:22 No.13835798
    I'd say maybe the pendulum swings back for them on that--instead of more Terminators, the get less. Otherwise, you could make the argument that, since they have a better forge, they can just make more vehicles, more advanced weapons, etc.
    So while they have terminators, they have much less than the average chapter, as their faculties are oriented towards dreadnoughts. That said, between suits being dearer and their tendency to only use candidates who have no sign of node degradation over the centuries, their lesser numbers are made up for with greater prowess.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)04:44 No.13835920
    Yeah basically. Primus gets the terminators. Secundus gets the Icelus dreads. (and one bodyguad squad of terminators)

    Oh man... so here's a worst case scenario for you guys to consider: what would the chapter do if one of its most destructive members, a 300+ year Sleepless, HIGHLY psychic August Dreamwalker with an Assault based Icelus chassis (lets say equipped with an MIU grenade launcher, a thunder hammer and a power fist for the aesthetic of it) somehow broke all the way out of the actual fortress monastary on Icelus and made it into the hive, disappearing into the smog?

    How could the chapter possibly do damage control? How would it impact the chapter's relationship with the hive worlders? Could civilian casualties be kept to a minimum? Could a warrior and psyker on that level ever be recaptured in such a dense urban invironment in the first place?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)04:49 No.13835958
    Yeah okay that sounds good. How does 45 terminators sound? 10 for each Dawn Battle Company and 5 as a bodyguard for the Secundus Lord Adjutant.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)04:50 No.13835971
    I think at that point you have to hope sending out brothers he grew and fought alongside--whoever is left as venerable as he is--and pray that he sees them, recognizes them, and has the lucidity to come home.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)04:50 No.13835977
    45 sounds good.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)04:56 No.13836017
    How would the populace react? Would they lose trust in the Nightmares or try to be understanding in the face of slaughter?

    Would the Nightmares even care what the population thought?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)05:04 No.13836055
    >It chronicles the adventures of Dream of The Endless, who rules over the world of dreams

    Someone how I, or maybe someone else will make this fit.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)05:10 No.13836090
    Hopefully--the two have a mutual history and a shared past. It would likely come down to the individual. There might be veterans from the chapter assigned as damage control and tasked with coordinating with the Icelus people and government during the crisis.
    >> Kamaluq !zrj8XSKLEc 02/09/11(Wed)05:37 No.13836262
    Thread 5? Throne, I'm proud of you, my fellow res/tg/uardians.

    What we should do with besides the fleshing out is some votes on the archived threads to push them higher in notability. The threads are at 17, 16, 8 and 3 votes currently, and could do with more.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)05:39 No.13836269
    The Sandman is a being who exists in the warp since the time of the first Dream. He is an elusive being, never seen in the waking world, and only caught in glimpses that mean nothing to the average dreamer.

    Neither malicious nor benevolent, he ensures that Dreams happen, and punishes those who attempt to interfer with the peaceful respite brought by his realm.

    The first encounter the Nightmare's have on record was shortly after they discovered the art of dream fighting. Imagine the surprise of this eldritch being who had existed the earliest times of man, when one of his sleepers reached and and punched him square in the nose, calling him warpspawn sent to ensnare men.

    Needless to say, Dream did not take kindly to this insult, and laid the curse of the Sleepless upon the insolent men who dared bring war to his realm.

    He is a busy being, and it takes many years for him to notice another Nightmare in his realm. When he does finally see the warmonger fight, he lays a curse upon him, and resumes his business.

    Whatcha think? Whipped it up on the fly, but it ties in the Sandman quite easily.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)05:59 No.13836386
    Bump so I can get some feedback on my half ass fit in of the Sandman
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)06:01 No.13836402
    But the Sleepless are a consequence of catalepsean node degradation, not a curse from a warp being !
    Otherwise, it sounded interesting.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)06:04 No.13836419
    Anyone mind giving me a fresher on Icelus dreads, first time hearing this. Must've been in thread 4 or something
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)06:06 No.13836445
    Wtf am I typing?
    Icelus dreads, what are they?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)06:08 No.13836456
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    >Emperor's Nightmare
    >Immediately think of Darwin's Nightmare
    >A documentary about the effects of the introduction of space marines to a planets ecosystem.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)06:18 No.13836522
    An Icelus-pattern dreadnought is a master-crafted dreadnought sarcophagus, designed to be faster and lighter, using a pre-heresy mark of the frame.
    The Nightmare uses the Icelus to brutal effect, both as lighter, more agile conventional dreadnoughts in a support role, filling the position left by devastators, and as their special stealth dreadnoughts. Using stummers, cameoline, and camouflage to be a noiseless, deceptively stealthy steel giant, a Nightmare dreadnought in the Icelus pattern can be where the enemy isn't looking, using his years of experience to devastating effect. They are typically given a dreadnought CCW and a hard-point sniper rifle, though they can opt for heavier, traditional dreadnought weapons at the cost of speed and stealth.

    TL;DR lighter, agile dreadnought, some of whom are masters of stealth.
    >> Espagnoll !/5aJFFL8RI 02/09/11(Wed)06:20 No.13836545
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    I lol'd
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)07:07 No.13836834
    No one is posting, this is making me sad, so I'm throwing questions to make you react :
    - How would you play the Emperor's Nightmare on the tabletop ? We said Blood Angels codex but never went further.
    - What would your approach be when painting minis ? Trying metallic colors ? Staying simple ? Adding tons of details like dreamcatchers ?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)07:09 No.13836853
    We're probably just in the middle of a downshift as people go to bed. It'll pick back up.
    As for playing, you'd probably go dreadnought-heavy whatever you did. If you can, try to give a lot of hard-hitting units infiltration/scouts/fast movement, or the like.
    I'd probably divide the teams into Primus and Secundus, with a balance towards Secundus--I like the stealthy bastards more.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)07:10 No.13836859

    -Blood Angels. I'd take as many dangerous terrain tests as possible, and when I fail one I just say that marine has fallen asleep.

    -Keeping it simple. Colour, symbol, and maybe a dreamcatcher or such on the higher-ranking mehrens.
    >> Kamaluq !zrj8XSKLEc 02/09/11(Wed)07:14 No.13836886
    I'm currently trying to codify the descent into Sleeplessness as the chapter's Curse in DW terms, but I have hard time fleshing it out.

    Level 1: <cool name here>
    The Nightmare's Catalepsean Node begins to degrade, further increasing the time between Rests. The combination of increased fatigue and hyperactive senses leads to OCD-like behaviors, such as counting the stars passing by the bulkhead during transit, tracing all the lines in a parquet flooring, and so forth. A character inflicted by such an OCD must pass a Challenging (+0) Willpower Test to break away from it and attend other business.

    Level 2: <cool name goes here>
    blah blah. Anyone have an idea? Bueller?

    Level 3: The Waking Dream
    At this stage, the veil between dreamscape and reality is fully torn. A Nightmare might sees things that are not there, but might be; things that were; or things that are, but elsewhere. Old friends and imagined enemies (often minions of Khaliman, the hated Prince of Change their Chapter Master slew) are always with them, and sometimes overlap with really existing people currently present. Sleepless Nightmares can be a great danger to themselves and others, as they are known to suddenly attack an enemy only they can perceive, and in doing so kill allies or innocent bystanders that appeared to them as the hated foe. At this stage, the Nightmare is considered to possess the Frenzy and Berserk Charge talents (as well as Mental Rage if they are Librarians), but no longer automatically distinguishes between friend and foe for purposes of determining their nearest target. Instead, they must make a Hard (-20) Willpower test to see through the dream images.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)07:16 No.13836893


    Sandman is the Emperor, bro.

    Or at least a manifestation of him.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)07:16 No.13836898
    But it's the middle of the day for me, so I'm a bit frustrated >< *sigh* Guess I'll have to find another occupation while waiting for people to come back...

    Divinding the army was my choice too, but more than dreadnoughts I guess I'd alsos try to squeeze in as many Sleepless as possible, because they're just so cool.

    Good point, we would need something to say they're falling asleep...
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)07:21 No.13836931
    #1 should be #2.

    #1 wouldn't be as... severe. Perhaps #1 is what they start off on.

    >Captcha astribli sleep

    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)07:22 No.13836940

    Level 1: The Noticing?

    Level 2: Patterns of Hate

    As the slow mania of sleeplessness becomes more and more ingrained into the battle brother, his OCD behaviour becomes more deeply entwined with his being and he begins to produce compulsive patterns within the field of battle. In addition, he becomes more twitchy as his node continues to degrade. He gains the Paranoia talent. In addition, whenever he hits someone in on the limbs, he must take a -30 Willpower test or be compelled to attack the opposite side of the enemy using the normal rules for Called Shots. This applies even if his first blow killed the target.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)07:22 No.13836941
    We might also give them the opportunity to go the opposite way. Rather than drifting towards Sleepless, they start sleeping more and waking less.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)07:23 No.13836945
    Agree with this. #1 should be like "unable to sleep, blahblah, before each mission have to make a Challenging (+0) Willpower (or Perception?) test or have been unable to find rest, automatically gaining one level of Fatigue."
    >> Kamaluq !zrj8XSKLEc 02/09/11(Wed)07:25 No.13836952

    Hmmm. A diceroll to determine what way they go? Something like 1-8 Sleepless, 9-10 Dreamer? Evidently the latter ought to be rare.
    >> Kamaluq !zrj8XSKLEc 02/09/11(Wed)07:29 No.13836985

    How's it too severe? The Challenging test is standard compared to the other Curses, so that part is fine. Is it just the OCD part? I considered that the most common... on the other hand, their OCD can easily be modelled as a 'normal' consequence of battle trauma, ie, simply gaining Insanity...

    Yeah, okay. I agree, actually -- let's drop the OCD from the Curse and rather make that a new (and suggested) form of battle trauma as par DW 279.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)07:32 No.13837002
    I'll do you one better. Roll a d10 when first making your Deathwatch Nightmare.

    On a 9, he uses the Dreamcaught Chapter Curse as he follows the path of the Dreamer.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)07:37 No.13837029
    Faulty node is how his curse manifests?

    Eh, I like the idea of him being a seperate entity. But that is just me.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)07:44 No.13837085
    Perhaps he's the chapters 'Sanguinor' type figure?

    Or, perhaps thats the explination of what this thing is. The ol' "Its probably just the Emperor, dude"

    When really, no one knows. Or'd like to believe that it is the Emperor, because if its not, who the hell knows what it is exactly.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)07:56 No.13837174
    That's an idea, independent characters for tabletop. Gavroche is the obvious one--maybe a dread with less armor and different weapon choices, and infiltration/scouts?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)08:01 No.13837210
    I figured more of a... it'd be sort of like a waking dream. One of the veteran battle brothers suffering from the symptoms would see this 'sandman' figure walking the ranks, slaying the enemies of the emperor. Then another would see it, and another and that would make him manifest?

    "Gonna sound like a stupid question, Brother steve, but do you see that sand-man looking fellow over there?"

    "The tall one with the thing"



    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)08:05 No.13837232

    I'd say for Special Characters, a Captain/Lord Adjunant of Secundus would be a decent bet...Gives D3 units Infiltrate or something along those lines.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)08:08 No.13837260
    One has to be an August Dreamwalker in Iron. Dream-phased ancient psyker-dreadnought coming to wreck your shit.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)08:28 No.13837387
    Captain Nyseos - 200pts
    Battlegroup Secundus Commander

    WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
    6 5 4 4 3 5 3 10 2+

    Wargear: Artificer Armour, Iron Halo, Relic Blade, Bolt Pistol, Astartes Sniper Rifle, Frag and Krak Grenades

    Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Combat Tactics, Independant Character.

    Lord of the Dusk: Nyseos, like all Captains of Battlegroup Secundus, is adept in crafting stunning works of Ambush in a surprisingly little time. If Captain Nyseos is in your army, all units exchange the Combat Tactics rule with the Infiltrate Universal Special Rule.

    From the Shadows: Captain Nyseos, and any squad he joins, counts their weapons as Pinning if they are more than 12'' from the target.

    No Place for Maniacs: Captain Nyseos would not have his plans ruined by the berserker Sleepless. Any army which includes Nyseos cannot also include Sleepless or Living Dead Dreadnoughts.

    What do you think? Changes welcome of course, I'll fluff him up if /tg/ likes.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)08:30 No.13837400
    I'm not qualified to judge. Looks like a vicious anti-infantry commander, though.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)08:39 No.13837432

    Change "No room for maniacs" to "let the sleepers sleep" or something.

    Seems a little OP, I guess. Probably isn't. You'd never get him in a board though.

    A man can dream, I guess.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)08:40 No.13837435
    "Let the sleepers sleep" when we're talking about *Sleepless* ? ... I don't think so.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)08:42 No.13837444

    Hm. Perhaps if I took away his Relic Blade and replaced it with a bog standard power weapon, replaced artificer with power armour, styling him as mostly a support captain, that might even things up?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)08:42 No.13837449
    Shit, I literally just closed my laptop and gone to go to sleep when this idea came to me.
    For any Icelus stealth-variant dreadnoughts, particularly independent units:
    Quiet as the Grave: The combination of stummers producing an unnatural zone of silence and the impossible grace of its bearer, the dreadnought gains some kind of fear effect. There's the Fear trait in DH/RT/DW, but I can't think off-hand about rules for it on the table. Some penalty to Leadership, I guess.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)08:45 No.13837461

    Perhaps reducing Ld by 1 within 6'', like the torment grenade launchers of the Dark Eldar?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)08:45 No.13837465
    Sounds good. And maybe by 2 if in base contact with the model?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)08:47 No.13837474
    Its late. Leave me be.

    The problem with 'designing' new characters for the game is, idiots think the regular characters are OP. At least the guys who cant use them. You'll never reach any sort of censuses on the matter.

    For a 200 point character, I'd expect some sort of relic blade. He's a named character, so a 2+ save would make sense, but you could probably get away with a 3+ and an Inv'.

    all I see is a bunch of guard players crying that you can infiltrate an entire army of space marines. Suddenly foot-marines gets some sort of limited viability?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)08:48 No.13837482

    Works for me. Things get considerably scarier when they start beating you about the everywhere.


    Well, this'd be AT MOST for friendly games, it's hardly tournament legal...Just adding more substance to the chapter.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)08:51 No.13837493
    /tg/ cranked out not one, but two versions of Codex: Angry Marines. I have no doubt at all after seeing all the creativity the Nightmare has produced that it couldn't make a fan-fucking-tastic Codex: Emperor's Nightmare. It'd be great for friendly games.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)08:55 No.13837512

    Well, starting designs for Nyseos has gotten my creative juices running. I'd be up for helping out with a Codex: Emperor's Nightmare.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)08:57 No.13837525
    I've stumbled across this tread and found it full of awesome. i love you, /tg/
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)08:57 No.13837526
    Fuck yes. I'd love to help, but I have fuck all actual experience on the wargame. That said, I'll be happy to contribute ideas and suggestions.

    ...Later. I haven't slept. Gonna get on that now, for the sake of the Sleepless who cannot.
    >> Ted 02/09/11(Wed)08:57 No.13837530
    rolled 48 = 48


    He had came out of nowhere, his boltpistol emmitting a soft retort before his fellow cultist was blown to smithereens next to him. The Space Marine raised his chainsword high, the quiet roar it's engine barely heard. In helpless surprise the cultist threw up his hands, and in a crunch, was buried beneath the giants armor.

    When the cultist woke next, he cried out in pain. The Space Marine had fallen upon him mid swing, and trapped the heretic under his armors weight. At first came pain, the crushing force of the armor had surely destroyed his lower body, but the suffering wasn't over yet. The cultist could only meekly curse the horrible prediciment and scratch at the giant's impenetrable armor with his bare hands, before resigning himself to wait for whoever felled the Marine to show up.

    Days later, the cultist, still trapped under the Marine, was suckling on some flowers he had close by. The small amount of sugar had kept him going, but still no sign of the rescue. He wondered what blow had taken this hulking form. What sort of fate had taken place to destroy this Marine? He prayed frequently, and fruitlessly to Tzeentch for the answers.

    A week later, the cultist was on his last rites. Dehydrated, malnurished and weak. He could only watch as some minor predators of the world he was on draw closer, their razor sharp teeth in full focus. Maybe this was the answer? The cultist thought, Maybe this was the final gift? The Space Marine had other plans. When the creatures were close enough to strike, the cultist weakly lifted his hands, accepting his fate to these growling creatures. A moment later, the fate was stolen from him as the Marine shifted, and lazily batted the creatures away. The cultists torment persisted.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)08:57 No.13837531

    Codex: Emperor's Nightmare/Sleepy Marines
    >> Ted 02/09/11(Wed)08:58 No.13837534
    rolled 47 = 47


    It is a sad day when a heretic steals from a Space Marine, but such occurances happen. The trapped cultist, noticing the numerous belt pouches on the marine, weakly opened each up. Numerous items feel upon him, including bolt shells, charms. Needles, and finally, packaged rations. Flavorless, and inscribed with holy writ, the rations burned in the cultists mouth.

    Two weeks later, after enduring so much, the Cultist finally had given up. He said his last words, and simply waited for death to come. When it did, and he felt the mortal coil slipping away, a great weight was lifted off his body, and the words "Emperor Preserve, that smells" did part his way from the world of the living.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)08:59 No.13837544

    Worry not Brother, commend yourself to the vigilance of the Watchers, we who remain in the waking world shall bear your burdens.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)09:17 No.13837660
    I may be wrong, but don't the 'official' special characters give the option for giving up chapter tactics for their special rule?
    The way it's worded it seems like it obligitory, and while fluffy, options are always great.
    I don't have my SM codex on me, so feel free to correct.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)09:23 No.13837700

    I just took it word for word from Pedro Kantor's entry. "If you include Pedro Kantor then all units in your army exchange the Combat Tactics Special Rule for the Stubborn Universal Special Rule."
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)09:25 No.13837710
    Fair enough.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)09:27 No.13837723

    Bear in mind that you don't HAVE to infiltrate if you don't want to. The loss of Combat Tactics is a minimal thing, usually you're not wanting to run away in the first place.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)09:49 No.13837846

    That said. Why take this 200pt character if you don't want everything to infiltrate?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)09:52 No.13837865
    Point taken.
    And this is the Secondus leader, so all in all it makes sense.
    But now I'm pondering what USR to give the Primaris part.
    Respect Uctist Indeed, we should all respect mighty brother Uctist
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)09:55 No.13837889

    Well I was thinking having a Primaris Special Character as the generic "Main Fighty" character of the Nightmares. Y'know, your Calgar, your Mephiston, your Vect, someone who can be relied upon to dice things. That said, the Fighty character could always be reserved for the Night Owls or something.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)10:02 No.13837930
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    posting from last thread.

    >Problems, tslac?
    Oh shit, captcha is trolling you tslac.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)10:06 No.13837957
    I like the white accents on the trim, gives the sleepless a unique look compared to the Death Company.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)10:08 No.13837975
    >Space Marines
    A battalion would be like half a chapter.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)10:10 No.13837988

    Which, shockingly, is what Battlegroups Primus and Secundus are. Though they should probbaly be called Battlegroups to avoid confusion.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)10:14 No.13838010

    Yeah, Battlegroup clears away any misconceptions and sounds cool too.

    Still thinking on Special Characters. I think positions which would be great for these are...

    Battlegroup Primus Captain/Adjunant
    Battlegroup Secundus Captain/Adjunant (Captain Nyseos)
    August Dreamwalker in Iron
    Night Owl
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)10:37 No.13838159

    Not sure about a sleepless SC. Maybe a librarian SC?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)10:40 No.13838173

    Maybe. I suppose Librarian Special Characters are a tried and tested thing.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)10:40 No.13838174
    Actually, I think an Apothicary special char would be more appropriate, think Lemartes but for the sleepless.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)10:43 No.13838196

    ...Now THERE'S a thought! I like it. For some reason I'm thinking about ways to alter Sleepless squads based on quantities of stimulants/depressants, somewhat like Fabulous Bill.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)10:51 No.13838232

    Seems like a harsh way to treat them, to load them up with drugs.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)10:52 No.13838250
    Loading up Sleepless with stims? Come on, those dudes have ridiculous amounts of perception, that's just needlessly tormenting them.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)10:53 No.13838259

    Yeah, I see your point. Just brainstorming really.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)10:59 No.13838321

    How about something like...Works like a normal Apothecary. Can go with a sleepless squad, can take a Leadership test to quell their Rage once or twice per game (Just using Death Company as the analogue right now) so they're not as tactically inflexible as Death Company. And probably has other stuff, I'll think more later.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)11:00 No.13838323
    and there's no problem with that. But I do remember there was talk of apothicary dreads that heard the sleepless into battle, perhaps something to do with that.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)11:02 No.13838343

    My only reservation with an Apothecary Dread special character is that most people seem to be fond of the idea of an August Dreamwalker in Iron Special Character, and having two Dread Special Characters seems a bit much.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)11:08 No.13838392
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    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)11:22 No.13838480

    Perhaps the Sandman is the psychic manifestation of the entire chapter's dreams. It can gain enough strength in the warp to occasionally manifest itself in the materium, lending aid to the Nightmares.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)11:23 No.13838492

    If we're going with an August Dreamwalkers in Iron, can't that handle the Psyker SC too? We don't need a psyker SC and a psyker dreadnought SC.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)11:28 No.13838522

    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)12:03 No.13838810
    I agree. There's no reason to have both August Dreamwalkers in Iron (Can we call the ADI's for brevity?) and a psyker SC. Too redundant in my book.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)12:09 No.13838850
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    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)12:10 No.13838855

    Okay, I've been thinking this guy out a bit more. This is all assuming the Sleepless are still Death Company analogues.

    Chief Apothecary Eidelan - 120pts
    Shephard of the Endless Awakening

    WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
    5 4 4 4 2 4 2 9 3+

    Wargear: Power Armour, Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Narthecium, Frag & Krak Grenades

    Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Combat Tactics, Independant Character.

    Shephard of the Endless Awakening: Eidelan has spent more time tending to the Sleepless than perhaps he should, for he finds them a fascinating and terrifying picture of what they all might become. Thus he has worked out ways of curtailing their wrath. At the beginning of the Movement phase, if Eidelan is part of a Sleepless unit he may try to use a powerful mix of depressants in his Narthecium to reduce their psychosis by taking a leadership test. If failed, this is no effect. If passed, the Sleepless lose their Rage for the rest of that turn, but must immediately take a Dangerous Terrain test to represent the mind-clogging effects of that powerful a concoction

    Terror Tactics: Eidelan knows well how best to form the Sleepless under his command into a howling wall of terror which renders the enemy insensible with fear. When charging into combat with a unit of Sleepless, the charged unit suffers a -2Ld penalty, as though charged by a scout unit out of a Land Speeder Storm.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)12:14 No.13838879

    A bit underpriced for what he does.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)12:16 No.13838895

    Maybe drop the power weapon?
    >> SC Guy 02/09/11(Wed)12:19 No.13838912

    Really? He gives FNP, stops rage at a cost and gives a bit of morale damage on the charge.


    I WAS considering the value of a Power Weapon, I'll admit.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)12:28 No.13838962

    Masters of the Forge are 100 points and this guy has something closely resembling its stats, giving feel no pain to a unit and his little extras pushes him above that cost.
    >> SC Guy 02/09/11(Wed)12:29 No.13838968

    Bear in mind he has none of the Master of the Forge benefits.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)12:50 No.13839136
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 02/09/11(Wed)13:00 No.13839198
    Captain Lycanis, Nightmare Secundus. 200 points
    ATSKNF, Independent Character, Combat Tactics, Infiltrate, Stealth
    Power armor, Camo Cloak, Stalker Pattern bolter
    Infiltration Tactics: Any infantry unit in an army with Lycanis may replace combat tactics with the Infiltrate special rule.

    Lycanis May take a retinue of Sternguard Veterans with the following additional options.
    may replace their bolters with Stalker pattern bolters at +10 points per model
    May take camo cloaks at +5 points per model.

    My take on the stealthy captain. Taking a cue from Tellion. forgive me if the point costs are way off...I play Chaos...my view on points is...skewed...
    >> SC Guy 02/09/11(Wed)13:08 No.13839243

    Hm. Interesting, but I think he's a little too Telion-esque. I like the Sneak-Sternguard retinue idea though. And he seems a little too stripped-down for a Captain (Bearing in mind Telion is a Scout Sergeant).
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)13:12 No.13839268
    Random question; what do you guys feel is the line between "Divergent" and "Unique" Chapter formations in Rite of Battle's rules?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)13:14 No.13839284

    Should have some manner of ccw and keep the Iron Halo. Also, I'm not sure how the Stalker-pattern boltguns would work with special ammunition.

    Stalker changes the firing profile and most ammunition changes the S/AP. Kraken adds to range so that's the only one that CONFLICTS but it would take playtesting to see if 10pts is appropriate.

    Especially since your opponent is now in specialist round range first turn.

    Maybe change out kraken for the old metal storm, updated?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)13:16 No.13839298

    Divergent can draw clear parallels to the Codex, like having waaaaay more dreads than usual, but having them fulfill the same role, or adding some squad types to companies or changing the companies order/purposes. Unique is something off-the-wall. Like riding giant wolves into battle or putting your initiates right into power armour or having them train in battle right beside fully-fledged marines.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 02/09/11(Wed)13:17 No.13839302

    Maybe allow him to change the Stalker Bolters from Heavy 2 to Heavy 2 or Assault 1, Requisite Power Weapon. Oh and profile:
    WS: 5 BS: 5 ST: 4 T: 4 W: 3 I: 5 LD: 10 SV: 3+

    I kinda wanted him and the retinue to bed a marine version of Eldar Pathfinders. Set em up and let em pick off infantry.
    >> SC Guy 02/09/11(Wed)13:18 No.13839308

    Perhaps you could just have their bolters being modified to cause pinning in addition to the special ammo rules.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)13:19 No.13839318

    Changing the stalker's firing modes gets kind of complicated on top of adding specialist ammo then, you may as well just give him a new pattern and some of the ammo.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 02/09/11(Wed)13:22 No.13839343
    Didn't think he should have the Iron Halo since he'll have +2 to whatever cover save he's getting. (Do camo cloaks and Stealth stack?) Plus some so OPERATOR would probably frown on using an Iron halo...cause he's a badass. Also the trend marine IC's not having an invul.

    I'm downloading the marine dex now because I forgot how some of the special ammo worked. I was assuming that they would just see an increase in range. I'll have to check it out...sorry again...silly chaos player here...
    >> SC Guy 02/09/11(Wed)13:25 No.13839359

    Just referring to my take on Mr. Secundus. Changed Artificer armour to Power armour, and the relic blade to just a power weapon.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)13:26 No.13839377

    So splitting the Chapter into five 200-man Clans that have a higher proportion of Devastators would still be Divergent, then?
    >> SC Guy 02/09/11(Wed)13:27 No.13839388

    Yes, because within the battlegroups it's still mostly true to the Codex organization.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)13:29 No.13839397

    Thanks much.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 02/09/11(Wed)13:32 No.13839421
    yeah...I are dumb...ammo works differently than I remembered.
    >> SC Guy 02/09/11(Wed)13:35 No.13839449

    It's a good idea, just a little rocky in the combinations. And, for the record, Camo Cloaks simply grant Stealth. You'd have to make a special rule for the +2 to the cover save.
    >> SC Guy 02/09/11(Wed)13:47 No.13839556
    Any ideas for a Battlegroup Primus Captain/Adjunant? I've got the idea that he should either be in Terminator Armour or have a Jump Pack, and should be dead killy. And perhaps he should either let every non-vehicle unit in the army Deep Strike in, or perhaps allow certain units to charge like beasts (Representing the Shock & Awe "FFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-" of Primus).

    >Captcha: CRITICISM thectsec. Relevent. Pitch in ideas.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 02/09/11(Wed)13:58 No.13839650
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    Just refluff shrike.

    it works
    >> SC Guy 02/09/11(Wed)13:59 No.13839660

    Lightning claw, plasma pistol, jump pack, iron halo, all that captain jazz.
    >> SC Guy 02/09/11(Wed)14:00 No.13839667

    OR THAT. That kinda works perfectly, actually.
    >> SC Guy 02/09/11(Wed)14:27 No.13839870
    So we've got the rough sketches of a Primus Captain/Adjunant, a Secundus Adjunant (Two, technically) and a Sleepless-loving Apothecary.

    We've got the ADI special character, which I'm reluctant to even touch until more people get in here...And perhaps an actual Sleepless Special Character and Night Owl Special Character. Anything else?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)14:32 No.13839913
    We haven't mentioned Terminators in awhile. Id think they should only be part of Primus. Dont know if this was discussed already but should we include an orbital bombardment option if using Primus? It would demonstrate shock and awe well. I think Daemonhunters did something along those lines.
    >> SC Guy 02/09/11(Wed)14:33 No.13839923

    You mean the 75-ish point heavy support choice? It's an option.

    And I agree, Termies should be a Primus-only thing.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)14:43 No.13839976
    A few question about Sleepers, please excuse my ignorance, I just saw this thread today.
    1st question: So Sleepers, when asleep, have their minds in the warp, fighting demons and the like?
    2nd question: Can sleepers be woken prematurely because of a major disturbance in the warp?
    3rd question: How are sleepers affected by things in the warp, such as the interference by Tyranid Hive Minds or warp storms?
    4th Question: When they fight in their dreams can sleepers die? (Kinda like Nightmare on ELms Street.
    >> SC Guy 02/09/11(Wed)14:48 No.13840014

    1. Nah. Regular sleepers only enter fugue-states, coma-like sleeps. It's those with decent psychic potential who can consciously fight warp entities.

    2. No idea...Though that could be the Nightmares' indicator that something bad is about to go down, unusual levels of awakenings.

    3. I'd imagine Dreamers would find it significantly harder to retain their lucid state in the warp in such scenarios.

    4. They certainly think so. From certain writefaggotry we've seen, it certainly seems the case.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 02/09/11(Wed)14:55 No.13840068

    I honestly don't think it can be the Warp itself. There's just too much in existing fluff about how the Warp makes you pants on head retarded/murderous fiend.

    Rather I think their dreams should be in that thin layer between the material world and the Warp. Where Daemons have more sway but less than the Warp itself. Something similar to the Daemon worlds themselves where the warp and mortal world overlap somewhat. If you want to get super fluffy, it could be the way that daemons help spread influence and can be traced back to the nightmares of ancient Terrans etc. etc.

    I really don't think we can justify a Chapter full Marines as fucked up as Astropaths. They'd get blammed ASAP for being essentially worthless.

    I think being woken up earlier, if even possible since it would be VERY HARD would be VERY VERY BAD!

    As for how many sleepers there actually are... Beyond the Librarium, I would say no more than 1/3 maybe 1/4 could be actual Dreamers. It needs to be somewhat rare and honorable for it to make sense.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)14:57 No.13840080

    Camo cloaks grant Stealth. No point in both.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)15:02 No.13840123

    So sort of like a Dreamlands area, which reflects both the chaotic nature of the warp and the more orderly structure of the materium, with its own special physical laws? I like it.
    >> SC Guy 02/09/11(Wed)15:03 No.13840131

    Well most of the Sleepers (From my knowledge) can't actually form a lucid consciousness while sleeping, and it's Dreamers who even get little visions. It's not the whole Chapter, just the psychically sensitive ones.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)16:16 No.13840835
    If you roleplay a Nightmare, would it be good to use Method acting and pull an all-nighter beforehand?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)16:25 No.13840900
    It's weird, I was actually thinking of making the Primus Battlegroup leader with 2 lightning claws and a jump pack.
    But I dunno if we want to go more "Rip and Tear" or something else.
    Also, I think that he should defiantly have preferred enemy, to represent his senses being above even a regular marines
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)17:05 No.13841322
    OP here, just woke up from one of the longest sleeps of my life. Feels great.

    I apologize but ... I actually have a real problem with this.

    When you get right down to it it's slash fiction. Why not include a halo marine and the keystone elves while we're at it?

    Sandman is a great story I agree, and Neil Gaiman is a great author, but we're already referencing the same things that Neil Gaiman does in his stories. The homeworld of the Nightmares is even named after one of the Oneiroi (Icelus) for example. We've got this covered.

    Now, I think the idea of a psychic manifestation of the chapter's collective dreams or something has some potential. The whole psychic doomrider thing someone was talking about. I don't really "like" it, but I will admit it has potential to explore. And yes as raven guard successors the chapter may have pale skin and blackish eyes, but I draw the line at calling anyone Morpheus, having a pumpkin headed familiar or battling a daemon with teeth for eyes.

    Let Sandman be Sandman. Let the Emperor's Nightmare be the Emperor's Nightmare. Combining them dilutes the awesomeness of both in m opinion.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)17:06 No.13841336
    Agreed. Inspiration is one thing, Character insertion another.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)17:25 No.13841606

    Quite right.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)17:27 No.13841642

    I do still like the idea of a psychic manifestation of the Nightmares' dreams, though, particularly if we intend on using the BA codex on the tabletop. While it isn't really necessary to create a counts as for all the characters, it would be nice in at least some of the cases.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)17:31 No.13841691
    So reading over this thread I've noticed one misconception that I thought I'd clarify. (we can also retcon it I guess if you guys really want but I prefer it this way)

    Icelus pattern dreads are not used as the devastator stands in. Those devastator dreadnoughts are actually the closest thing to a remotely "normal" dreadnought that the chapter has. They're all modern marks because it would be a waste of an Icelus. They're organized into small squads, made perminant members of the company and are given the codex markings of a devastator squad.

    The Emperor's Nightmare isn't going to use their master-crafted dreadnoughts for mere autocannon fire support. Instead Icelus pattern dreadnoughts are specialized into Tactical and Assault varients. Among the Tactical varients, some are "stealthnoughts" that are most commonly deployed alongside Secundus. The Assault oriented ones are, also somewhat obviously, deployed alongside Primus. Assault and tactical varients are also used for black ops missions, opperating alone behind enemy lines for months or even years at a time, sowing discord and confusion, distrupting supply lines and communications and even infiltrating and destroying key objectives.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)17:32 No.13841706
    stupid feild to long...

    The chapter is making more Icelus suits, but the master-crafting of each part in the design process takes a very long time even for hands as skilled as the Master of the Forge's. They don't yet have enough of them to deploy them all willy-nilly as mere fire support. They have contemporary dreadnought marks for that. Icelus patterns are given to the greatest heroes even among great heroes and they are sent on the most dangerous and most important assignments.

    As to other questions and misconceptions. I invite everyone, even those who have been here since the first thread, to go back and reread the wiki. It has evolved a lot over the past few days and lays out all the fluff of the chapter pretty well (even if sometimes it makes mention of things it doesn't actually go on to explain for two more pages)

    You're all doing great work guys. I'm proud of you all.

    (we could still use more drawfriends though if any of them want something to do)
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)17:46 No.13841873
    On this note, I don't think the Icelus should be officially counted as "dreadnoughts" in the chapter.

    In many ways these smaller marks are a halfway point between dreadnoughts and terminators and given that the chapter does not have /that/ many suits of terminator armour, the Icelus marks sort of take on those roles (the assault Icelus ones anyway).

    This has the added benifit of letting us have even more fucktons of dreadnoughts without having to actually look at it and say "woah we have too many dreads" They're also not useful in some of the situations that dreadnoughts are (for example I'd rather have a heavily armed Ironclad in a siege) and considering them terminator-analogues rather than dreadnought-analogues accentuates their light weight, speed and comparitively diminuitive size. The first few posts about them were referring to them as "robot lictors" that are more like light monstrous creatures than heavy walkers.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)17:54 No.13841944

    Heretical though it is, their closest analog may be Tau battlesuits.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)18:01 No.13842011
    Yeah true, but that shall remain unspoken because it is heretical. They are terminator analogues.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)18:27 No.13842286
    Was it ever really decided on the Hive Worlds PDF livery and general design?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)18:33 No.13842332

    I believe they were going to have livery similar to the Papal Guard.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)18:34 No.13842335
    I was just thinking about this and was going to make a post about it. Glad we're all on the same wavelength.

    Well the royal colours of Icelus nobilty are purple and gold and the PDF have like an elite swiss guard feel to them with their fancy over the top dress concealing an actual legitimate badass in a funny hat. We know that their training is overseen by a couple of Nightmare sergeants too.

    But other than that we don't really have much fluffed out about Icelus humans.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)18:42 No.13842396
    When you say not counted as, what do you mean?
    >> Brother-Captain Obious 02/09/11(Wed)18:46 No.13842426
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    i had a thread for this the other day, but im modeling a death watch kill team, and i now have an additional seat open in it, so i would like to add an emperors night mare marine to it. all i need is war gear and a name, any thoughts guys?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)18:48 No.13842438

    Actually, it could be possible for the Dreamers to be in the warp. Studies show that murderers often lack the ability to dream or daydream, so their minds don't know how to handle aggressive feelings, or something like that. I'm working from memory here.

    Anyway, if the murderers in the waking world kill because they're not dreaming, that means that just about everyone else is more peaceful because those aggressive emotions get resolved in their dreams. Aggressive emotions are the same thing that make daemons, so in a way, wouldn't dreaming fuel the warp or be a direct link to it?

    Just a thought.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)18:53 No.13842475
    We have 58 contemporary mark dreadnought chassis in the chapter IIRC.

    These are already divided into the devastator dreadnoughts (of which there are many), the specialist dreadnoughts (I think there were six apothecary dreadnoughts at last call. No clue on techmarine and chaplain dreads) and the librarian dreadnoughts (of which there are at least ten).

    I don't think the icelus should be counted as dreadnought in terms of tactical organization and I don't think they should be counted against this limit we have because we already have almost the full 58 accounted for. They still use sarcophagus technology and they ARE Mark 1 heresy dreadnoughts so like... they ARE "dreadnoughts" from a mechanical perspective and you still have to earn the suit with a glorious almost-death and so on, but they're considered seperate when making a list of the chapter's armoury. "we have 106 melta guns, 821,000 crates of ammunition, 58 dreadnoughts, 24 Icelus dreadnoughts, 12 Land raiders... etc"

    I think the chapter should consider them similar to terminators. They are being made in-house and within the battle brothers' lifetimes so they wouldn't be "holy relics from a past age" like dreadnoughts and terminator armour, that said, they are master crafted walking miracles of technology and mean as much to the chapter as any holy relic for that reason, but the mentality is different.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)18:59 No.13842533
    Okay, that I can work with. I just woke up, so for a moment I was spacing and thought you were suggesting counts-as Terminators.

    Don't forget, though, we did have the passing idea of the non-stealth Icelus designs being ideal to replace Devastators when the squads in question need to be able to cover ground very quickly--lighter and more agile than conventional 'noughts, the Icelus can keep up and still maintain the heavy support role.

    That comes into conflict with >>13841691, though.

    Maybe not every Icelus has the meticulous body-work done? Still a work of art, but all that augmentation that's iconic of the stealth Icelus isn't used, so some of the more intensive work on the frame--joint crafting and fitting, modifying, and so on--isn't done.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)19:02 No.13842556
    Not sure I agree or disagree with either of you, but these topics should be discussed. There is potential here.

    However a word of caution in general: like the manifested dream thing discussed earlier, we're in the stage of refining and ironing out the chapter now, expanding on what we already have, not making whole new things just for the sake of it.

    Things should absolutely be discussed for new ideas but unless something in one of those ideas is UTTERLY FUCKING AMAZING and truly deserves to be included in the fluff alongside stuff like the Sleepless we shouldn't still be just tossing any old new thing into the chapter canon.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)19:06 No.13842595
    ok can someone please link to the other threads have been away since thread 3 and would like to have a fresh read from thread one, any links please.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)19:08 No.13842609

    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)19:12 No.13842633
    Actually I think we can reconcile everything you're talking about without much bother.

    All the Icelus suits are somewhat stealthy and the probably all have the stummers and some of the other basic stealth equipment. It's just part of their design. They're fundementally stealthy but they're not ALWAYS used that way. Tactical Icelus suits are used in support roles. Some are lone commandos and these best fit the term "stealthnought" but others deploy alongside battle formations, moving and redeploying alongside their brothers. Since extreme speed and stealth isn't as much of a focus, these are the Icelus dreads that can afford to be encumbered by actual heavy weapons on their shoulder hard point.

    Similarly assault icelus suits are capable of being quite stealthy but they use their cone of silence as a weapon of fear and use their mobility for charges and combat rather than evading sight.

    Icelus dreadnoughts are a great support unit and they can fit into many different roles. I don't think they would ever "replace" those devastator dreadnoughts though organization-wise although sure plenty of times they'd be deployed for mobile support when a devastator dread would be too slow.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)19:12 No.13842634
    Always available (thus far, at least) off of the 1d4chan entry on the Nightmare.

    Third Thread: http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/13806286/
    Fourth Thread: http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/13820331/
    Fifth Thread: http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/13835080/
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)19:12 No.13842639

    I agree, but the exact state of the Dreamers as they're dreaming has been a topic of interest for me for a while, since I'm trying to write some fluffy stuff about it.

    Also, it's kinda freaky to read this, since this chapter has quite a few similarities to the first chapter I made nearly five years ago.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)19:14 No.13842656
    Everything is linked at the bottom of the wiki for your convenience.

    You're in for a treat. The 4th thread was probably our best thread. We got so much shit done and so many good posts and cool writefaggotry and drawings.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)19:17 No.13842682

    thanks very much anon. catching up now ;p

    Just as a side note/congratulations I used to play tabletop some years ago and have continued to enjoy the odd BL book now and again and this thread and idea in general has the potential for future write-faggotry. Perhaps even as far as a community based short novel. An insight into the practical workings of dusk and dawn against some chaos invasion of a local system...
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)19:19 No.13842692
    And we should totally discuss the fuck out of it. It's something we haven't elaborated on too greatly (although keeping the dreams mysterious IS kinda cool)

    I'm just saying we shouldn't depart from what canon we already have unless it's mind blowingly cool. Even "yeah that's pretty cool" stuff shouldn't make the grade anymore.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)19:27 No.13842768
    Im actually converting marines for this chapter and plan to play them soon. I made a unit of terminators and decided to fluff them myself some time ago

    >The Everwoken

    The Everwoken are the Terminators of the Nightmare chapter. They are a amount of marines whos node have malfunctioned to the point of always being awake. Causing them to slowly but surely becoming ever increasingly insane. Equipted with close combat weaponry they charge headlong into battle in a pure frenzy seeing battles past and battles future while in the battle present. Though insane their fanatical devotion to the Emperor and Chapter keep them from harming themselves or their brothers. But when unleashed on the field they are kept a close watch by their brothers.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 02/09/11(Wed)19:35 No.13842832

    I know right? I've been playing my Chaos marines as a rogue Raven Guard successor, with a main purple color, an owl motif, and mark of Tzeentch everywhere... It's kinda creepy how we rolled in my first thread.

    But as for the dreaming, I've been writing under the assumption that the dreams are neither Warp nor Materium. It's like the the layer between, similar to Daemon Worlds in the Eye of Terror.

    I'm thinking this is where Daemons hold more sway than our Waking World but aren't all powerful as in the Warp. Psykers would have similar abilities, as they are the only ones fully in control of themselves whilst in this realm of dreaming. Others are able to lend their efforts (true Dreamers) but can't go all Neo about it like the stronger Librarians. Others yet may get prophetic glimpses or other totemic imagery from time to time, but will never enter the realm of True Dreamers.

    Anyway, that's been my take on it since thread one.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)19:35 No.13842837
    While Sleepless Terminators is pretty much guaranteed pants-wetting horror, earlier on we seem to have decided that terminators that fall sleepless don't remain so. The suits are too valuable and the weapons are too dangerous to let a Sleepless use.

    Maybe the same idea could work as a group that prolongs their awake time as much as possible, so they hover near that point of falling into unconsciousness? Due to the excessive time awake, they're 'blessed' with hyper-alacrity?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)19:40 No.13842881

    These are the Sleepless, and the terminator-wearing marines I believe on the Night Owls. You're of course free to call them what you like, but I'm pretty sure these two names have been set already.
    >> Kjax !!Sv5kJQjt07c 02/09/11(Wed)19:41 No.13842894

    Three levels:

    Dream Readers

    Dream Walkers

    Dream Weavers

    Pretty self-explanatory. But I submit this for /tg/ approval. Not everyone can be a dreamer.

    But did we decide that you had to have been a Dreamer to qualify for Dreadnaught status?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)19:43 No.13842914
    Two general things

    1. The real tragedy of the Sleepless is that, when they really start to really lose it, they DO harm their brothers. Even while in their minds they are protecting and honouring the chapter and the Emperor in reality they are ripping their old friend's guts out with their teeth...

    2. Because of how fucking dangerous the Sleepless are it was common consensus that they shouldn't be allowed terminator armour and that any terminators showing signs of Sleeplessness would be requested to return their suit.

    There can always be exceptions though. After all, they still field Sleepless dreadnoughts despite how dangerous they are. A Shock and Awe unit of Sleepless Terminators with thunder hammers would be a terrifying foe for anyone to face, you'd just have to hope that today they're sane enough not to think you are the enemy. I imagine it's not at all common practise to equip the Sleepless in this manner but in the 2,000 years the chapter has been around it's probably been done at least a few times.

    I would love to see some pictures of your army once it's up and running.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)19:47 No.13842951
    Yeah I didn't read the thread before posting about my everwoken terminators. Now that I have I like what /tg/ has done but I think ill keep my personal Everwoken Terminators as fluff for my Nightmares. Just because 5 terminators with lightening claws teleported next to the enemies command squad makes me smile.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)19:47 No.13842957
    No any hero can still be a dreadnought. All those Devastator Dreadnoughts are perfectly normal dreadnoughts (although, like the rank and file, some might be dreamers maybe)

    It's the librarian dreadnoughts, the August Dreamwalkers in Iron that have to be dreamers, and damn good ones, to earn that title.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)19:48 No.13842969
    Maybe have a killswitch in their terminator armor that completely locks it if they start going batshit.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)19:51 No.13843008
    I'm liking this.

    The 'edge of the warp' feel has a bunch of upsides. It explains why daemons can fuck up our shit there even more than in the materium, but why it's still juuuuuust safe enough for us to go into and fight in without instantly dying. It also lays down some ground rules so we wont have too many gary stus running around dreaming ion cannons into existance that kill Tzeentch on his home ground or anything too derpy.

    It keeps everything grounded while also expanding the fluff. Win-win. It gets my vote.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)19:55 No.13843030
    This guy's got a good idea. Maybe give them the vehicle explosion rules? The charges are designed to kill the Sleepless and leave the armor salvageable, but still produce a lethal explosion if they go up next to someone.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)19:58 No.13843053
    That works.

    Okay with a safeguard like that I could see the VERY occasional deployment of Sleepless as assault terminator squads. It would only be in scenarios where the reward GREATLY outweighed the risk though.

    A killswitch SHOULD be enough in theory but too many to count have died from underestimating the mind of a Sleepless marine. They're insane but their insanity lends them a terrifying, unhinged intelligence.

    To paraphrase what someone in the last thread said: "human intellect without the inhibitions of human reason" Fucking. Scary.

    Like that sleepless librarian dreadnought that used machine curse to turn its chassis back on and telekinetically rebuilt itself. You CANNOT underestimate them or they WILL kill you.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)19:59 No.13843070
    Maybe something like this has only happened on the direst occasions, three times in the chapter's entire history or somesuch...
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:02 No.13843107
    I like this.

    In times of the most extreme need. The sleepless are fitted with terminator armor and given thunder hammers and lightening claws and are sent into battle via drop pod far away from friendly forces.

    Like lets say. Tyranids about to over run the last stronghold on a planet?

    The main nightmare force drops in and around the defences of the city/fortress while the sleepless/everwoken are dropped directly ontop of the tyranids center where the majority of the command creatures are. The very heart of the swarm.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:05 No.13843130

    I don't think they'd waste terminator armor on something that, uh, wasteful.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:05 No.13843136
    I like this. They're generally only deployed in situations where they can't be expected to come back alive. The armor isn't written off, but if the situation was dire enough, it could justify the loss of the terminator suits.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:06 No.13843152
    I was thinking it was a situation where nothing else would really suffice. But then again, they could just orbitally bombard that position if they could do a drop pod insertion, couldn't they?
    Okay, we need a new plan for the terminators.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:06 No.13843154
    Breaking the back of an entire tyranid hive fleets ground forces by decapitation strike and thus saving an entire planet that must be pretty fucking important anyway for the sm to be deployed?

    Thats wasteful? You are a silly guy. I like you silly guy.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:07 No.13843161

    If Sleepless were to be deployed in groups, would they have recognition of each other as allies?

    I can only imagine the possible terror and greatness of being aboard a battle barge with two Sleepless dreadnoughts getting loose on either side, and waging guerrilla warfare against one another along with the inhabitants of the ship.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:09 No.13843194
    Yes. It was established a while back that for some unknown reason the Sleepless have an unspoken bond with eachother and while they often attack their brothers in their delusions they almost never attack another Sleepless.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:10 No.13843200

    Let me lay it out. Temri armor is almost impossible to make new copies of. A SINGLE world, is not worth giving up one damn suit of that armor.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:10 No.13843204
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    Ah, I must have missed that.

    Much appreciated.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:11 No.13843211
    Yeah well fuck that noise. I don't give a shit. I like the idea of fanatical death strike murdering crazy terminators. fuck your logical explanations and shit. Logic is for fags anyway
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:12 No.13843222

    They could also just bombard the shit out of the synapse/brain bugs and be less wasteful in regards to terminator armor.

    Or just throw them down there in normal armor.

    Must chapters are crazy about their terminator armor.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:12 No.13843224
    >Ultramarines lose entire first company and are fine
    >Space Wolves have terminators out the fucking asshole
    >so do the black temderps

    Just because the marine is killed does not mean the terminator armor is unsalvagable nigger
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:13 No.13843235
    Yeah unfortunately this is 40k where technology is GRIMDARK

    We're already bucking canon a little by having one of the few facilities that can actually make our own dreadnoughts. Lets not push our luck (even if it is a little derpy).

    That said, if they won they could go reclaim the terminator armour

    And if anyone was going to survive being dropped into the middle of a hive fleet with no support and no ranged weaponry, it's a fucking entire unit of the Sleepless...
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:16 No.13843254
    I've been thinking, we never decided where the Fortress-Monastery is right?

    And Icelus is mostly Wasteland outside of Hives... should we take another page from the Blood Angels? Have Aspirants begin from the Mid-Hive, and have them make their way through kilometers of gang wars, wasteland, etc... before reaching their hopeful new home?

    And to test for perception, a necessary trait in the Nightmares, the Aspirants must seek out a rare animal or plant, keep it safe, and bring it to the Monastery in perfect condition. Of course, all the while, they must guard it from other jealous children surrounding them.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:16 No.13843256

    If the situation truly warranted the deployment of Terminator Sleepless, then I'm sure there would be a good chance of the armor being recovered.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:18 No.13843276
    It WOULD be in the case of sending it into a 'nid fleet, dumbass.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:20 No.13843292
    Just gonna take a moment and a post here to ask that everyone be civil.
    We've made it through 5 of these threads without any major bickering, and our output of fantastic content shows it.
    That said, let's continue.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:20 No.13843293

    Dropping them into the middle of a shitload of tyranids pretty much means that they aren't getting that armor back.

    Way to mention only special-case marines, by the way.

    With regards to the 1st Company of Ultramarines, it was on fucking Macragge that this happened. They also ended up pushing the Tyranids back, and kept the planet- which means that they would be able to get anything back that wasn't completely mangled.

    The Space Wolves and Black Templars are also pretty lenient on being codex chapters, and have been around for a fucklong time which means they've probably got veritable loads of terminator armor compared to some of the other chapters. >>13843235

    Yes, because surviving being dropped into a place full of carnifex(es?) and hive tyrants and all the nasty nasty bugs is completely doable, just because you're a psychopath super-soldier who hasn't had a power nap in a god awful long time.

    While they're another one of /tg/'s pet chapters, try and make sense of the shit you people post.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:22 No.13843316
    I think we decided that the monastary was vaguely within sight of the largest hive, visable against the outline of some mountains or something.

    But that all sounds good. There was earlier talk of aspirants racing through the streets to the underhive to find and slay a rare creature to eventually make their blindfold from its skin.

    But I was never 100% sold on all of that and since the blindfolds are functional cloth now IIRC this makes more sense to me.

    I also like the juxtaposition of aspirants trying to protect a delicate flower or something while running and fighting in the competition to prove their toughness. All tactics are fair game. You can destroy someone else's flower to force them to go all the way back for another one, but they might just overpower you and take yours instead. All that matters is that you show up at the gates to the fortress monastary with a completely undamaged flower. Not so much as one petal missing.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:23 No.13843322
    Man are you just here to kill the fun of this thread? we;ve already established the sleepless are so bad motherfuckers and only deployed in situations most dire. Giving them terminator armor makes them 10/10 of the gonnafuckshitup scale. clearly the overall battle strategy is for the sleepless to inflict as most damage as possible to the hive minds leading creatures so the regular nightmares can fight their way to their position, deactivate their suits and load them up back to the ship. Effectively breaking the nids hivemind on the planet and turning them into easy meat for awhile. Allowing ground operations to commence freely.

    You sound like someone who cannot have any fun if its at all a bending of the RUUUUUUUUUUUUUURUUUUUS.

    Black Library books have termies deployed all the time and they absolutely fuck shit up to the extreme. 30 or so sleepless terminators dropped into the hive minds command area would fucking murderize everything there. these guys are like if you mixed khorne berserkers wth a shit ton of coke and speed
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:25 No.13843337
    Yes. Five threads proves that we have far more productive debates when we aren't calling eachother dumbass niggers.

    Now get back to work you dumbass niggers. We have shit to create!
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:28 No.13843371

    >>hive minds command area

    That's like dropping a squirrel into a woodchipper.

    Do you get that? You can have fun while being reasonable instead of trying to ramp shit up to FUCK YEAH COMPLETE AWESOMEEEEEEE.

    Black Library books end up kicking everything up to that level, but terminator armor is pretty rare for non-first founding chapters or chapters that go around collecting relics.

    If you're going to work off the assumption that this pet chapter works anything like other non-first/2nd founding chapters, they should only have enough Terminator armor to kit out their commanders/first company, which is something like 20~ish suits, 30 at max.

    30 terminators can fuck a ton of shit to death, but dropping them into a veritable meat grinder when the armor in and of itself is super rare/a pain in the ass to repair is completely wasteful.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:29 No.13843384
    No, bad. Let's try and be more original.

    Terminator armour idea is shit, really. We're designing for a cool /tg/ chapter that makes Angry Marines and canon chapters look bland. Not making the Adeptus Munchkinus Tourneyus.

    That, and Terminator armour is a relic. You don't waste relics on the madmen.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:30 No.13843405
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    >>mixed khorne berserkers wth a shit ton of coke and speed

    Welcome to Space Sharks, by the way.

    Tyberos would like to have a word with you.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:32 No.13843434
    >Yes, because surviving being dropped into a place full of carnifex(es?) and hive tyrants and all the nasty nasty bugs is completely doable, just because you're a psychopath super-soldier who hasn't had a power nap in a god awful long time.

    I said if anyone could do it, not that they would automatically succeed. I was just giving them slightly better than suicidal odds. Chill.

    While you have a point this post reads like a troll post in that it's overly antagonistic. We don't need that in this thread any more than we need "and then the sleepless killed Khorne for looking at him funny and now he plays poker with the Emperor psychically while sitting on Khorne's throne" it's all unproductive.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:33 No.13843447
    Whatever bros. You play your Nightmares the way you play your Nightmares. Mine however will be stocked with cocaine addled speed demons in terminator armor with thunder hammers.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:33 No.13843449

    Which not only would be more powerful than terminators on a 1:1 scale but is something that we actually CAN replace given it's been stated that the Nightmares have dreadnought manufacturing capabilities and NOT terminators.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:33 No.13843451
    And that word is "GRARGH"
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:34 No.13843452
    I think the best compromise is "normally, the Nightmare does not outfit the Sleepless with Terminator armor. But in two or three extremely dire cases, it has happened."
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:35 No.13843467
    This is all well and good but when are the Blood Ravens going to give back those pillowcases they buggered off with?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:36 No.13843474
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    According to the IA10 book they don't even talk while they rip people apart.

    So he'd just be very angry, very quiet, and very CHAINSAWS TO THE FACE CHRIIIIST.

    You've got terribly thing skin for someone on 4chan of all places if you're saying I'm being antagonistic.

    Here, this might help you.

    I like the ideas of /tg/ chapters, but some of them are silly and good(see: angry marines), but this one seems more serious and fleshed out.

    Which means ramping everything up to 11 is antithetical.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:36 No.13843475
    We have precisely 45 suits of terminator armour.

    One squad of ten in each of the four Dawn companies and five more as a bodyguard for the Lord Adjutant of Secundus.

    So yeah, we can't afford to waste them.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:41 No.13843513
    Oh I'm not offended or anything, and again, you had a good point.

    I'm just saying that if we somewhat antagonize each other, we prompt responsed and distract from the main discussion.

    Case in point we're responding to each other when we could be discussing the chapter instead.

    >struggle erynap

    Yes captcha, they do struggle to nap e'ry time.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:44 No.13843542
    45 Suits of irreplaceable terminator armor
    58 suits of replaceable dreadnought armor.
    Which one would be best to send into a location we're likely to not got them back?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:48 No.13843571

    Sleepless dreadnoughts (especially the psychic variety) are among the most terrifying things I've ever seen in 40k. They're already totally overpowered and over the top (but in an awesome way) we don't need the terminator sleepless too. Not only would it be a waste of terminator armour, the sleepless dreadnought could do far more damage for the expenditure of fewer resources. It is also replaceable for the Nightmares, unlike the terminator armour.

    Yes. Exactly so. There is probably some bizarre combination of events that would lead the Wake to order that the sleepless be equipped with Terminator armour but it has only happened like twice in 2,000 years and shouldn't really be considered canon.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:49 No.13843578

    Funny. My chapter were Raven Guard successors with a messed up sus-an membrane that caused them to go into comas after particularly stressful campaigns.

    The way I've been viewing the Dreamers is like reverse-daemons. Instead of manifesting from the warp into the real world like daemons, the Dreamers would astral project(?) into the warp to wreck Chaos at its source.

    In regards to the amount of the control Dreamers have, I've thought that they can do little things like create weapons, ammo, and the like. Minor things that won't disturb much. The stronger the get, the more they can do. The strongest librarians would be able to fly, shape-shift, teleport, and do other crazy stuff. The Dreamers would be able to break some of the rules because they know they're not bound to them. In a lucid dream, you can do just about anything.

    Also, I can only see Sleepless terminators/Everwoken being used in cases where the Nightmares know they'll be able to recover the suit. Need to break the back of a Nid ground assualt? Good time to use 'em. Entering a space hulk filled with unknown gribblies or boarding an enemy ship? That's a no go, because Terminator suits are hard as fuck to obtain and maintain, and no sensible chapter will throw them away without a care.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:51 No.13843603
    And that's not including the additional fleet of 24 suits of Icelus mark armour the Techmarines have been building.

    Yeah in an odd twist our chapter cares less about dreadnought armour than about terminator armour. Dreadnoughts just... aren't really a relic for us.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:52 No.13843606
    Not to say they're thrown away casually, of course. Just that they're replaceable, with time.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:52 No.13843613
    I like the flower thing because it's not just about perception, it's about cunning too. Why waste time scouring the wastes when you can just rob that flower shop right there, and keep it isolated in this metal tank you've 'found' in that metalworker's shop?

    Why count just on yourself when you have some gang buddies watching your back, keeping you covered on the way out of the hive?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:55 No.13843643
    Indeed! Yeah we're on the same page here.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)20:57 No.13843667
    Yeah that's why I like it too.

    And it stands out from most other chapters because in this competition the Nightmares actually encourage dirty tricks. There are absolutely no rules except "You start here with no flower and you end over here with a perfectly untouched flower"

    Anything goes.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)21:04 No.13843736
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    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)21:04 No.13843744
    The more I think about it, the more I like it. The stealthy ones learn real quick how to move so they don't attract attention, how to lean so that their precious cargo doesn't reveal itself.

    The perceptive ones learn to pick out 'Hey, that idiot is covering up his left side constantly, why don't I just jostle him' and so forth.
    >> MechCommander !!AVzrZyWDzjV 02/09/11(Wed)21:05 No.13843759
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    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)21:08 No.13843792
    The main question is what did the Bloody Magpies 'recieve' as gifts from this chapter?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)21:09 No.13843807
    Killing the other aspirants, having a family member hand off a flower to you halfway through the hive, destroying other aspirants flowers, having your gang buddies pin down aspirants while you run ahead...


    The only thing you're not allowed is to start with a flower or any other equipment on your person. The chapter's apothecaries and chaplains watch by satelite and laud creativity.

    Of course, because the populace of the hive world is so linked to the Nightmares, all the aspirants grew up hearing about the competition so they know what to expect and wont be easily fooled.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)21:11 No.13843818
    Maybe an Icelus?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)21:12 No.13843839
    Bloody Magpies even stole the numbers of who I was quoting right from inside my post. That was supposed to be a response to >>13843792
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)21:13 No.13843849
    There was a story about them taking a Predator with a machine spirit that could run itself if the pilot lost consciousness.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)21:36 No.13844137
    Flowers. Dozens and dozens of flowers.

    Hence why everyone knows what the flower looks like even though it's "uncommon"
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)21:42 No.13844203
    I imagine one would be worth quite a sum. To the point several Noble Families consider it a mark of prosperity to have a garden of them. It'd be like how Tulips used to be in Denmark.

    And of course, they'd fetch quite a price on the black market during the Trials, but the marines would probably make sure there's only a certain amount in the Hive as to make it not so easy for their aspirants.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)21:43 No.13844220
    Tulips were prized throughout Northern Europe, which lead to the tulip bubble, so something similar could have happened earlier, but then the Bloody Magpies saved the day by creating "scarcity" with the flowers when they accepted the flowers as "gifts"
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)21:57 No.13844353
    "Night-Scented Gilliflower."
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)22:10 No.13844521
    And they're purple too, seem to fit perfectly
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)22:18 No.13844599
    What do they do with the flowers when they bring them back? Do they just dump them?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)22:21 No.13844633
    Oh shit on that note, given the intelligence -both in preplanning and in thinking on your feet to adapt to the other aspirant's plans- involved in the event the Nightmares would probably use their close connections with the civilian populace to manipulate all kinds of things going on in the hive.

    There would be controlled blackouts, staged gang wars, watching aspirants through security cameras, locking or unlocking automated doors and sending freight elevators to the wrong floor higher up in the hive.

    I'm picturing a chaplain, an apothecary and a host of high level hive administrators sitting in a command building on some tall spire watching a wall of computer screens, monitoring the aspirants every move and actively trying to throw wrenches in EVERYBODY's plans.

    Basically, to earn the right to try to become a Nightmare, you have to outsmart not only all your peers, but also two high ranking Nightmares with control over the hive itself who can see what you're doing.

    Given how perceptive Nightmares are, I also see slight of hand and even magic tricks being something of a popular hobby among the battle brothers. They'd spend time trying to get a trick past each others' sharp eye.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)22:22 No.13844639
    Maybe compound them into a mix believed to induce sleep and dreams, and their first night in the chapter monastery they burn it as incense?

    That or weave the thing into their dreamcatcher.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)22:25 No.13844672
    Overseeing is good--particularly so that they can ensure that the family with the most wealth isn't just coasting their kid along to success. In addition, they might also take those who would have succeeded and let them find a place as well, knowing what they did.
    The end result is: it's unfair, but it's unfair to everyone equally.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)22:25 No.13844673
    I actually like that.

    "Honoured lords, I alone among my peers have passed the tests and I have brought you your gift"

    "Good now throw it away along with everything you once were. We shall forge you anew."
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)22:27 No.13844695
    The wiki article is confusing me on something. The Sleepless section says that The Sleepless are overseen by a pair of August Dreamwalkers in Iron, but the dreadnought section says that that task is reserved to specialist apothecary dreadnoughts.

    Which one is right?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)22:28 No.13844704
    ...I like that too, but this is a chapter built on a good deal of reverence for ritual.
    Maybe they order them to cast away their flowers with their past selves, but they're later collected and turned into that incense?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)22:29 No.13844720
    Probably the latter--August Dreamwalkers are likely busy sleeping, and if not sleeping, on very high-priority assignment or as counsel for the chapter. They could be both, but I doubt there are many August Dreamwalkers that are also apothecaries.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)22:33 No.13844764
    They're highly prized flowers in the Icelus nobility, and the Emperor's Nightmares encourage this mentality by centering their contests around them.

    Then when you finally make it down through the underhive, cross the hundred miles of ash wastes, arrive at the doors to the chapter keep and present your offerring of a perfectly undamaged flower to the stoic lone Astartes before them, the marine inspects it, and then speaks to you:

    "Good, now destroy it as you destroy what you once were in sacrifice to the God Emperor and the Primarch Corax. You must hold no more sentimentality for the Materium. It is only the Immaterium, the resting place of humanity's souls and minds, that bears reverence."
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)22:36 No.13844784
    The latter. Apothecary Dreadnoughts. That's just an older piece of text from back when "August Dreamwalker in Iron" was a way to refer to any dreadnought. Now it's just the Librarian dreadnoughts who earn that title and they watch over the Dreamers rather than the Sleepless.

    Feel free to replace that bit of text in the wiki with Apothecary Dreadnought
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)22:37 No.13844789
    Isn't burning it the same as throwing it away?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)22:40 No.13844815
    Maybe, my only concern is that "you shall bring this special flower to the highest mountain, there you will meet the warrior brotherhood you seek to join. The will turn the flower into an incense, the aroma of which has a powerful soporific effect" risks being a little too batman.

    And I really like throwing away the flower they worked so hard for as a metaphor for giving up their humanity to become a space marine. That just fits so perfectly in my mind.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)22:42 No.13844835
    Giev flower to Mehreen.
    Mehreen taek flower.
    Mehreen crush flower.
    Mehreen drop flower on ground and heel-grind it a bit for good measure.
    "So it is for all the petty concerns of your previous life. You have a higher calling now."

    ...hmm. Part of me almost wants to make a cardcrusher image macro for this.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)22:42 No.13844837
    It should be the act of burning that is important,
    not the fumes that are given off.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)22:43 No.13844838
    eh, burning is sacrimental. There's an honour and a respect to it that is starkly different from the visceral effect of "that object you worked so hard for is now garbage. We're not even going to use it for anything. Your life and your priorities were a lie. We will turn you into a true servant of the Emperor"
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)22:43 No.13844841
    Fair enough, hadn't considered the Batman thing until now, and now I wonder how I missed it.
    Still like ritualization. A casting-off of the flowers from the top of a mountain overlooking the Hive?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)22:50 No.13844891

    Hmm...now I'm torn. That is a very cool image.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)22:51 No.13844899
    I see the ritualization part being for the lone Nightmare who greets the aspirant, rather than something the aspirant does or even really considers or understands until a later date.

    The Nightmare is killing his newest brother. By crushing that flower he is crushing every other dream that boy ever had. He can never return to his previous life. Even if he fails the rest of his trials he will remain forever with the chapter. He takes this very seriously and meditates on the crushed petals later, when the aspirant has left.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)22:53 No.13844917
    Hell, why not either? Depending on the means the aspirant took to get the flower.
    The bold and aggressive burn their flower in the day, symbolizing the gleaming yellow and the path of the Dawn.
    Those who used guile and stealth climb the mountain next to the hive and drop their flowers over it, emblematic of the deep purple and the path of Dusk.
    With either, a chaplain speaks to them of discarding what they were with their prize, and taking up their new lives.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)22:54 No.13844932
    Hrm, also good. This is surprisingly hard to decide on.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)22:56 No.13844956
    The only issue I have with this is that means an aspirant's path is chosen before they've even begun. I was under the idea that a Nightmare is assigned to a battlegroup only after he's finished his training.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)22:58 No.13844979
    I know eh? It's all gold.

    That's a good point.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)22:59 No.13844993
    They could certainly change it later on, it wouldn't set them in stone. They would just receive a sending-off for their old life suitable to how they solved the challenge.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)22:59 No.13845001

    I like this. To go along with the dream-theme, maybe the crushing of the flower represents the end of the aspirant's dreams both metaphorically and literally. He'll be turned into an Astarte of the Emperor's Nightmare, but in exchange for the one peace all men know from both. No longer will he dream in peace. Now, even in sleep, he will fight for the Emperor. Until death.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:02 No.13845038
    Same guy
    To expand on this I thought that the battlegroup was
    chosen almost entirely to how the Nightmare was
    reacting to the Node mutation.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:02 No.13845045

    It's even more badass 'cause only one of the two parties understands what is going on.

    The other one is thinking "you dick I worked hard for that"

    Then later the chaplains fill them in after they are led inside.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:03 No.13845062

    My mind is made up. I'm all for crushing the flower.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:06 No.13845082
    Nah node mutation has been established to be really unpredictable. Marines can, at any time in their lives, experience the node degredation that leads to Sleeplessness and so on. It doesn't have anything to do with battlegroups, that's just where the scout company master thinks they'd be best suited when they complete their training. (The Wake sometimes disagrees but I figure it's mostly the scout master's call)
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:06 No.13845084

    And here I thought my question was a simple one.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:06 No.13845086
    I like the idea that there's a pile of flowers off to the side in the shadows. Like, the Aspirant brings one in and he's so proud, thinking he's hot shit, and then the Nightmare grabs it before dropping it like garbage on a pile of hundreds that his Brothers already collected just for that day.

    Just to rub in that yes, you were great in getting this far, but you're not alone, you're not special, you still have a long way to go.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:08 No.13845113
    I like the idea that there's a pile of crushed flowers

    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:11 No.13845147
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    >>13845001 here

    It should've been "know from birth". Not "both".

    >mfw I fuck up a basic sentence
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:13 No.13845168
    I bow to the will of the res/tg/uardians.

    "It's a beautiful thing, isn't it?" The marine turned the blssom over, surprisingly gentle despite his armored hand. The boy could only nod. Beaten, exhausted, and nursing a broken arm, he had clambered tooth and claw to victory and was the first victor--possibly the only one--this year.

    "Like this world. Bright. Beautiful. Something worth fighting for." The aspirant agreed.

    The massive battle-brother looked at the flower in his massive hand.

    He clenched.

    For a moment the shock numbed him. Then, with a wail, began to hammer the marine's leg in tearful fury.

    The astartes gazed down on the boy. He couldn't be more than twelve. Let him have this, he decided. It will be his last outburst.

    Finally, pain racking the child's form, his blows relented and he sank to the ground, still clutching feebly at the marine's kneeplate.

    "Understand," the Nightmare said through the vox, his helmet impassive as stone, "That you could no longer be part of this beautiful world. Understand that you, like this flower, were pulled from your home, and could no longer grow. Understand," he finished, "that you have given your share of this life to protect the whole. This is your sacrifice. Bear it with pride... brother."
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:13 No.13845169

    We have a lot of symbolism in this flower. Yikes. The pile of crushed flowers would have to be very carefully positioned so that the aspirant can't see it at first but the marine can casually toss it onto the pile without having to walk so that he can just rip it from the aspirant's oustretched hands and be done with it, thus accentuating the shock of the experience.

    So is it officially >>13844353 the night scented gilliflower this anon mentioned?

    "A rare terran flower brought by settlers when Icelus was first colonized" is the half-sentence of fluff we need to have all that sorted out.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:16 No.13845190
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    Whoops. Belay that story, the marine's reflections on beauty and sacrifice can wait until after the aspirant's left. I'll be the first to admit I'm a big softie.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:16 No.13845197
    Dude, this is... wow. Manly tears for that kid.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:17 No.13845205
    Awesome writefaggotry is awesome.

    We might as well toss a link to it up on the wiki writefag section right now titled "Initiation" or similar, It'll happen sooner or later anyway.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:19 No.13845226
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    This thread: awesome. I'm so proud of you, /tg/.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:19 No.13845232
    /tg/ likes it? I stand corrected. ... again.
    Well, thanks. Do with the idea what you will, it's ours to share.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:20 No.13845240
    Hey, >>13845169 here. Fuck whatever it is I said that you're talking about. That story is awesome and I declare it canon right now.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:29 No.13845332
    I've tossed it up on the wiki, hope you don't mind I gave it a title
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:30 No.13845353
    Not at all. I did the same thing with some of the first stories written to put them up. I'm glad you liked it.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:33 No.13845387
    I put it at the top cause it just felt right chronologically for people to read it, then sleepless, then the others to really get a feel for the chapter.

    Of course, now that we have a story about it we should probably like... get down actually explaining the challenges, the initiations, the flower symbolism and all this other stuff in the civilian populace part of the fluff section on the wiki.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:35 No.13845403

    It's up there twice.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:38 No.13845439
    We can take mine down then. "The Initiate" sounds a bit classier as a title anyway. But I still say it should be moved to the top for when people new to the chapter just open all the stories in tabs and read through them chronologically.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:40 No.13845460
    Speaking of the wiki, we had a Sleepless variant with white trim that looked pretty good, maybe we should add that to the image gallery?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:41 No.13845464
    /tg/ I can not even begin to describe how proud I am of you guys. This Chapter is so good and well fluffed out. This actually sounds like a Chapter you would find fighting in the 40K verse with its own Lexicanum page, etc...

    Stay classy.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:41 No.13845465
    is done
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:41 No.13845478

    Does it fit with the established Sleepless armor fluff?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:44 No.13845495
    It did look pretty good, before we do though, hadn't we been discussing earlier that the Sleepless come from both companies and don't change their liveries at all, instead they start doing complex fractal etchings into the armour as they go crazier and crazier?
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:44 No.13845498

    Add it. We already have the other prototype schemes up there.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:44 No.13845508
    We never really established anything besides the fact that the Sleepless decorated and embroidered their armor as an outlet.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:50 No.13845563
    Yeah, it's an unconfirmed art possibility, so it can fit on the wiki with the other hypotheticals.
    That said, let's discuss it. I don't think the trim and the etchings mutually exclusive--adding the white is a minor thing the chapter can do for their brothers--or even the brother himself in anticipation of losing his mind--and then they begin to make their mad etchings.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:55 No.13845620
    Yeah we can quite simply do both.

    Toss it up on the wiki maybe with a note about it being up for discussion in comparison with the etchings, that way new people next thread who have only read the wiki will see it and be able to contribute.

    Speaking of which, it's almost time for a new thread. I'll prep one in a new tab and post it when this one starts autosaging.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/11(Wed)23:59 No.13845652
    Preparedness is all.

    I really hope a drawmarine can produce a good rendition of armor engravings from a Sleepless. We could also possibly have a story about the Magpies doing their thing and getting a suit of armor from the Nightmare that bears them. Perhaps with a belief that it's cursed.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/11(Thu)00:08 No.13845754
    Posted the new fluff on recruitment on the 1d4 article. Look over and edit it as you like.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/11(Thu)00:17 No.13845849
    Question, Res/tG/uardians, but has a Sleepless Nightmare ever succumbed to the Red Thirst or the Black Rage? How would human intelligence without human reason be affected by inhuman rage and strength?

    Would this be the scariest thing ever?

    Has it already and been struck from all records?

    And can we get a writegit in here to write it, or am I gonna have to?
    >> Anonymous 02/10/11(Thu)00:18 No.13845857
    Why would they? They're not of Blood Angel stock. They are descendents of the Raven Guard.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/11(Thu)00:18 No.13845860
    Bah, why wait like... three more posts.

    Might as well post it now. New thread is here: >>13845840
    >> Anonymous 02/10/11(Thu)00:19 No.13845868
    Why would they get that? They aren't descended from the Blood Angels, these are Sons of Corax. They were founded from Raven Guard geneseed.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/11(Thu)00:23 No.13845910
    I...I know not, brother. I thought...I have been awake for far too long, brother. I do so wish I would sleep.

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