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  • File : 1297858288.jpg-(18 KB, 460x300, Cunningham.jpg)
    18 KB ITT: Rival Schools, Riddle of Steel Edition John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)07:11 No.13921972  
    /tg/, my players have made yet another insane request of me, and I need a hand, because frankly I'm in a bind.
    Now personally, I blame them watching too much Ippo (that Japanese boxing anime) and becoming obsessed with the idea of professionally held duels of skill with enormous intricacy, but their request for our next campaign (after the bloodbath that was our recent attempt at horror) was a Riddle of Steel campaign centered around fencing schools, and the rivalries between and within said schools.

    I don't even know where to start. I've dropped references to fencing schools being present in the campaign world before, and one of the end-game encounters in our last Pathfinder game was a grandmaster partisan duelist, but this is RoS, a far less forgiving game, and one with less concrete goals.

    What should I do? At the very least I need ideas for different schools and their quirks, but moreover I need ideas for potential catalysts for Shit Getting Real, which must happen at some point to preserve the excitement of possible death.

    Also, general RoS thread, why not.
    Pic Related, going to work this psycho in somehow.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)07:15 No.13922003
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    HAJIME NO IPPO. Great fucking show, one of the few truly respectable animes of its kind.
    Since they're watching it anyway, work in a few references to make them giggle.

    This guy? He screams Case of Rapiers with dodging dickery. Exploit the Progressive School's bonuses to duck and weave to the MAX.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)07:17 No.13922014
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    The entire system of Schools is byzantine to me. Almost as much so as their system for large scale combat. What the hell do they even do besides waste your proficiency points?
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)07:19 No.13922026
    Beware polearm schools. The only reason that the sword persisted at all as a primary weapon through the renaissance was that it was good for dueling because schools built up around it more than the superior polearm master race.
    A master partisan duelist? How would you defeat such a creature with a sword?
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)07:21 No.13922037
    Throw your sword at them, impaling their skulls.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)07:21 No.13922039
    You basically put points into the school, and in doing so put points into multiple proficiencies at once. You get less bang for your buck individually, but you also unlock the bonuses for the school at proficiency 10 or thereabouts, like Progressive schools' duck and weave at a way lower DTN, or the chivalric schools' power bash and mounted combat buffs.
    It all makes sense once you think of it like another proficiency that levels slower but gives you more overall. At higher levels, things like Traditionalist Schools become horrifyingly unbeatable, because they give bonus cp in really cool weapons.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)07:23 No.13922050
    That's a good question. I could do it, assuming equal Combat Pools, but you would need a weapon with a good defense number and the ability to Toss or Stop Short without a huge penalty.

    Obviously luck will always be a factor.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)07:23 No.13922055
    That's a hail mary if I've ever heard one. What if you miss?
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)07:26 No.13922075
    This is what I would've recommended, ironically, except without the intention of impaling their skulls. Tossing something like a dagger can drag your enemy's pool down like a bitch, and polearms (particularly the long ones) tend to have shitty ATNs and focus mostly on their huge reach to carry the day. Deprived of a combat pool, they are dead men in a duel with a competent adversary.
    Of course this goes both ways. A good polearm fighter can at least keep you from bisecting him on the first turn using Stop Short, and you can never devote all your dice, or he might Master Strike or Counter. God help you if he succeeds a Counter and you have no dice left.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)07:27 No.13922078
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    Quick ideas:

    Winning the polearm/sword dilemma by closing to wrestle ASAP, and hoping to win by ground grappling. Let's see if that partisan master is ready to fight medieval Gracie (insert joke about Ott Juden's Ringen and medieval Jew-Jitsu here). Also just noticed capcha is almost omoplata

    The arrival of the town's ruler's guards to shut down a challenge before it can happen, resulting in a riot/three way streetfight.

    The master of a less duel oriented style (e.g. sword and buckler v rapier and dagger) insisting the match be to the death or disabling injury rather than first blood.

    The players' task is just to make sure the challenge happens publicly, fairly and profitably. They don't actually have much of a stake in who wins, just ensuring it goes off efficiently. BONUS: They're getting a stake of the crowd's thrown money, so persuade the fighters to make it spectacular and bloody... the crowd have little appreciation of skill, but are the players really willing to make the duellists go all WWE for cash?
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)07:27 No.13922079
    I remember this! LET THE HASSLE BEGIN.
    Poleaxe vs Rapier!
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)07:28 No.13922090
    Sans the moonspeak, what would it look like? This is a good gauge of the realism of the game.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)07:31 No.13922101
    Put that way, it kind of does make sense, thanks. As it's kinda central to the campaign, I'll need to use schools sooner or later, better to figure it out now.

    Now there's a fistfull of good ideas, and a sweet picture. Youch, dat's gotta hurt.

    Assuming equal proficiency and no armor? Probably the rapier, unless the polaxe fighter is lucky.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)07:32 No.13922105
    >The players' task is just to make sure the challenge happens publicly, fairly and profitably.
    Bonus points to the first man to say, in a deep booming voice, "Flawless Victory" upon a total domination.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)07:38 No.13922128
    In the ideal version, it would be this: The battle begins, and the swordsman allows the partisani to take the initiative. Parrying until he sees an opening, he combines a rush to close the distance while ducking and weaving with a thrown weapon or a feint of direction. If he gets in close, he continues applying pressure while watching out for quarterstaving (less than practical with a partisan, granted) and tries to gain attack extremities or, with great luck, the chest or throat.

    The partisan fighter's goal is to kill the other guy before he closes the distance, which he's got a good chance of doing, and the partisan's a pretty good weapon on the defensive thanks to its tip design, what with the parrying wings and the balanced haft... But there is no getting around the fact that his weapon is simply heavier, which can and probably will work against him when he has such a small killing range so far away from himself.

    Something like a polaxe or a shorter spear might be better as a dueling weapon against a sword.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)07:38 No.13922131
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    At a small, local HEMA tournament last summer, it became amusing to shout "Sudden-ru Death-ru!" whenever it was next-hit-wins. Of course, when the final got to about two dozen double-hits, this stopped being very funny...
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)07:39 No.13922135
    No armor and chainmail hauberk respectively, who wins?
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)07:41 No.13922144
    I've always wanted to be the guy who gets to yell that at deathmatches. Seems like it'd be fulfilling work.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)07:42 No.13922149
    I guess I can see that. Are you assuming something like a rapier, or a larger traditional longsword or greatsword?
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)07:45 No.13922167
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    Take a look at the real stuff and add flavor where needed?

    Camillo Agrippa is a good place to start I suppose. You know that line in Princess Bride where Inigo and Westley are fighting and Inigo says "I see you've studied Agrippa!" Well, Agrippa is one of finest fencers ever known so they might as well name drop him right?

    Also, perhaps watch some fencers really go at it via Youtube? I'm not talking about point matches, those suck, more along the line of classical matches.

    Hrm, so long as I'm talking about Youtube, if you haven't seen it already, this is perhaps the greatest swordfight ever captured on film. Both actors were accomplished fencers in real life, its been talked about forever.

    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)07:45 No.13922168
    I have no idea. That's not the sort of matchup that occurs often... Probably the guy with the axe and armor, since he can afford to let a potentially glancing blow land and hit the other guy for over 9000 damage.
    At the same time, the Katana is a pretty gnarly sword, if over-romanticized. Like any sword, when dealing with axes your best bet is to way for him to overcommit and then finish the job fast.

    I can't give my 100% on this one though, because my RoS expertise is rusty regarding axes.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)07:46 No.13922173
    Ok, I haven't looked yet, is this the one with Basil Rathbone and that guy in the castle?
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)07:47 No.13922181
    It is not! I stand surprised. Haven't seen this one yet.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)07:50 No.13922198
    Agh, Deadliest Warrior all over again. What if the guy with the axe has a shield?
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)07:51 No.13922200
    Fucking wow. How long did that take them to choreograph do you suppose?
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)07:51 No.13922203
    sounds AWESOME!
    please be my GM
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)07:52 No.13922206
    Well, that made my day. Incredible, was it just a thing back then that everyone who did movies could fence like a sumbitch?
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)07:53 No.13922209
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    The real problems that fencing schools faced:
    A nobleman's son takes a couple of lessons, then gets drunk, starts a bar fight and gets killed. The noble blames the son's fencing instructor.
    A bunch of students from the university get pissed and cause a ruckus in one of the city's taverns. The Tavern owner demands compensation from the university, which in return claims that they don't apply, special rights and privileged etc. Soon enough the town is busy rioting against the gown, and the fencing schools have lost a lot of their custom.
    Your fencing master gets an anti-social behavior order for practicing Sword and Buckler late at night and keeping the neighbors up. It's up to your inexperienced PCs to keep the school running while he's banned from the city limits.
    Some foppish foreigner has come along and says that as a master fencer he will take all challenges, but only at his school and by his rules. Your school can only lose by accepting the challenge, but can they afford to leave it unanswered?
    Two nobles have fallen out, and are deciding the matter by judicial duel, with champions. The potential rewards of swearing for one side are great. The potential losses? A hand and a foot.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)07:54 No.13922214
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    Stopping Short means a feinted thrust to make the opponent go offbalance to defend, but pulled back at the last moment to regain your stance for a follow-up attack. So quite logical and like Lichtenauer's Edel Krieg/Noble War - a series of high attacks in the bind to keep the opponent's weapon pulled back and stop him taking the initiative.

    Toss is the manouvre to throw something in his face. Clearly only an Italian would do something like that in a swordfight ;)

    Pic related: an American in a stick fight.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)07:55 No.13922219
    Believe me, with the players I've got, you'd be getting more than you bargained for. It's like playing with the supporting bandit cast from the third Aladdin movie sometimes.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)07:57 No.13922228
    Perhaps long but not as long as you might think, Tyrone Power's mother was a champion fencer and Basil was a grand champion.

    Getting the candles to get cut through properly probably took longer to choreograph then the actual fight. Regardless, I like it because neither actor is attacking just to hit the other guy's sword like you see in modern movies. You can tell that both are trying to attack the other directly.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)07:58 No.13922238
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    >Two nobles have fallen out, and are deciding the matter by judicial duel, with champions. The potential rewards of swearing for one side are great. The potential losses? A hand and a foot.

    George R.R. Martin ruined judicial combat for me. Feels bad man.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)07:58 No.13922241
    I'll be good... I swear
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)08:00 No.13922252
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    Gentlemen, we have an expert in our midst!
    So as not to be completely outdone, here is another American who had a thing for stick fighting AND duels! Rarely at the same time though. As far as I know anyway.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:01 No.13922258
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    While were at it, I might as well throw down this pic.

    Sometimes the ladies need to stab things too.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)08:03 No.13922267
    Now here's some meat! Covering the ass of an eccentric and arrogant schoolmaster? A good break from stabbing people in the teeth! Or not a break. Such a strange place, the land of duelists.

    You nibble at my heartstrings, sir!
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:03 No.13922275
    If the Viper hadn't gotten big for his britches, he would've had that sucker in the bag.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:04 No.13922283
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    school rivalries? cool!
    >every player choose different school
    WAT DO?

    school alliances?
    plot that forces them to work together?
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)08:05 No.13922284
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    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:05 No.13922290
    alas, the odds of you being in wales is low so no game for me anyways, but I'll be there in spirit!
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:06 No.13922297
    Knowing Riddle of Steel, whichever school gives the largest bonuses to dickstabbing dominates all others.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:07 No.13922298

    please tell me that is a euphemism
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:08 No.13922300
    Re: Fencing film clip.
    That's fucking brilliant. Not what I'm into (Looks like early C20th Italian dueling sabre with some Bob Anderson-isms thrown in). But you're right, all the attacks are made in tempo and with intention. Awesome :D
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:08 No.13922306
    >>but moreover I need ideas for potential catalysts for Shit Getting Real, which must happen at some point to preserve the excitement of possible death.

    There's a lot of money and prestige in being the school of choice for rich noblemen and their sons. So everyone tries to discredit everyone else, which naturally will lead to bloody duels every now and then. And simply demonstrations wit training weapons can provide opportunity to discredit opponents to the point where their career is over if you do it right. There's a real world example (from 18th century London IIRC) where this ended in suicide, but I can't recall the names of those involved.

    For more inspiration, read George Silver's "Paradoxes of Defence", and pay attention to how he trashes the foreign rapier schools: http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/GSilver.htm

    In the modern HEMA world I guess John Clements is your go to guy for delicious drama. Have a look at http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=17719

    Unless you want your threads to devolve into complete shitfests, avoided like the plague by all those who might have helped you, do NOT feed the trolls.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:10 No.13922307

    Princess Bride fencing language related.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)08:10 No.13922309
    I play with a Stateside Welshman every so often when I'm in the Americas. Nice chap. I wish you well in your search for games.
    I also wish you fewer axe-murderers in your group.

    ...Crap. Grudging alliances? Youthful friendship? Rivalries possibly ending in death? Gonna have to make that one up as I go.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:10 No.13922311
    Treat it like a wacky kung-fu film, and learning respect and tolerance (and cross-training) is part of their journey?

    Or suggest they specialise in different weapons in one school
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)08:11 No.13922318
    It is an unfortunate stereotype that the groin is the optimal attack location in riddle of steel. This overlooks that it's the single cheapest place on the body to armor with plate, of course.
    Codpieces were pretty big back then for a reason.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:13 No.13922331
    Well, as they say, if you're going to stab someone, it might as well be in the dick.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)08:15 No.13922335
    Ooh, reading material and career-shaking drama! My favorite things.

    Also, point received. No more what-ifs! Unless they're really good and not delivered like professional wrestling headlines!
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:15 No.13922338
    Theme music for y'all
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:17 No.13922342
    This would work. Depends on the type of school, but if it's a Progressive school or somesuch, you could have like four or five weapons that you've got proficiency with on top of your own proficiencies... They might all follow a general theme, but that must have been what they were expecting with a school-based game.
    Or else they all WANT to be on different sides, which is fine too. Rivalry is fun.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:18 No.13922352
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    The fencing masters of Pfennig Halbpfennig have decided that they need the recognition of the King in order to win their case with the city council to form a corporate guild. This means that all of the fencing masters have decided to work together and present their case to the King's court.

    While they are away, a new play-master arrives in the city and begins to draw away students from the existing schools. How do the PCs deal with this situation?
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)08:19 No.13922358
    >while we like degenerate sons, have forsaken our forefathers virtues with their weapons, and have lusted like men sick of a strange ague, after the strange vices and devices of Italian, French, and Spanish fencers, little remembering, that these apish toys could not free Rome from Brennius's sack

    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:20 No.13922361
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:21 No.13922364

    Yeah. To let the ladies know what I'm packing. Of course, that probably means it's got it's own little bratwurst-gambeson even when the rest of me's unarmoured...

    Further ideas:
    Dojo storming! Probably as the either the first or last session...
    Persuading a visiting famous master to give whatever the period name for "seminar" is at your school, not your rival.
    Two schools' students accidentally going to the same play/tavern/cockfight. Never mind the longsword/rapier rivalry, let's see how it goes down with daggers, beer steins and door bars.
    After a week's adventures fail to stop the other side from poisoning your champion the morning before the duel, breathing a sigh of relief when their "poison" is pure quackery, and at most mildly toxic. Then cornering him through a three-weapons, 9 rounds match.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)08:24 No.13922376
    This will definitely work best if I either design a bunch of schools and let the players decide on one as a group, or let them design their own from the ground up, within sensible limits.
    Probably the former, my players cannot be trusted with the carte blanche.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:26 No.13922385
    I was here for your last, drunken Riddle talk. You postulated some pretty outrageous example fighters from back when you used to run this game like a betting sport.
    If these are the same players, use those guys as your School Masters. The players'll have old favorites in there for them to side with, and being attached to your school emotionally and with loyalty was a big deal back then, what better way to fabricate that than using characters that the players already adore?
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:28 No.13922393
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    Now posting suggested Monster of the Week champions. Visiting foreign Templar! Do not be fooled by her ludicrous garb, it's mostly for show.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:28 No.13922397
    forever DM.
    but I have the best group in the universe so hah
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)08:30 No.13922405
    That's a pretty good idea, but logically they'd have to pick one to support, and oppose the rest. Unless I were to group the similar ones together and have one be the master and the lesser ones Proctors or something. (Proctor? Prokhtor? Dammit.)

    Then they'd be able to choose several. It could work, I'd have to review my old lists. I have reams and reams of characters floating around.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:33 No.13922418
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    >Got to write a paper on civic policies in medieval Paris by tomorrow. This thread is way more interesting.

    So, OP. When is the game set? I mean, what kind of culture and technology level?

    Because if you said 'Western European, c. 1400' we'd have a totally different style of game to if you said 'The Hanseatic League, c. 1500' or 'Paris, 1720', just in terms of how the fencing schools work and stay in business.

    Give us some tone and some flavor! Or else I'll have to distract myself by reading some Ian Mortimer.

    Also, in terms of tone, you could run with 'You lurch out of the tavern, bladder burning. Turning around, you manage to find yourself a nice doorway to piss into. You check over your shoulder to see if there is a nightwatchman roving, but all you can see is three men running down the street towards you, the steel in their hands glinting. What do you do?'
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)08:34 No.13922425
    Hah indeed. A good group makes all the difference... Though even a group of psychopaths can roll a natural 20 from time to time. The best part is whenever it catches up to them, they come here and make a thread about it. Like clockwork, /tg/ explains to them why they doomed themselves, and what to do about it. Glorious board, /tg/.

    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:39 No.13922459
    my group is all noobs with a growing love for the RP.
    some are, naturally, axe-crazy
    than again, so am I, so we get along
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:40 No.13922462
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    >>13922364 cockfight

    Considering the expected age, sex and personalities of said students, this is both oh so suitable and the inevitable result no matter where they meet...

    More material for OP: http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/ahr/105.2/ah000359.html
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)08:41 No.13922466
    Oh, sorry. My default setting is the one I've run the last 3-4 games in, low fantasy, mostly European. The Illegosi (Italian) states are what I've got planned thusfar, simply because they seem the most likely to have a sophisticated culture of combat schools.

    The rest of the world is a fairly nobledark pit of war and chaos between a far more successful-than-historically HRE and everyone else. The Italians have a brief respite from being invaded from all sides by the invasion of Karthacks (Turks) from the east, and the recent unification of the Sliver Kingdoms (The British Isles) resulting in the invasion of not-france. Also replace the Pope with a god-empress.

    I guess technologically we hover around the 15th to 16th century.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:41 No.13922469
    >dueling with hand-sickles
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:43 No.13922478
    When the campaign idea is basically "testosterone-laden young cocks strut around", having players who naturally gravitate towards playing Eddan-style sociopaths might not be a bad thing.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)08:44 No.13922485
    I could go into a lot of depth obviously, that's just the abridged, unimpressive version. The universe is pretty well charted at this point, but I always feel silly dumping it en-masse. Seems pretentious, you know?
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:45 No.13922488
    I knew this sounded familiar. Is Poppa Shas still in charge?
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)08:45 No.13922493
    The way it was meant to be, truly.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:46 No.13922494
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    The biggest blade a peasant might have to hand when things went down. The same author (Paulus Hector Mair) also recorded techniques for the crude club (i.e. a branch), the grain flail and the scythe...
    >> one-eyed hermit 02/16/11(Wed)08:47 No.13922500
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    horsecrap. we wanna hear.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:47 No.13922501
    Mair's work includes instructions for fighting with a number of things a peasant might have lying around. Sickle, flail, scythe and large lump of wood. Just search for Mair peasant on youtube and you'll find plenty. The sickle-assrip is probably my favourite, though finding the same parry in the club sections we see in longsword, Silver, kenjutsu etc was pretty neat.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:47 No.13922505
    Sounds perfect OP. Mind if I link spam you some stuff on pre-Early-Modern fencing?

    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:47 No.13922506
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    I went and looked it up on Easymodo. Gizka. Put Gizka in charge of one, but stack all of her points into a progressive rapier school. And then add 5 more.
    Give her a Colichemarde.

    Prepare for total, riposte, demonstration.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)08:49 No.13922513
    Carrying on the linkspam:
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)08:53 No.13922522
    Jeeze. I dunno where to start...

    Oh. There. Yes, Shastamannos still runs Karthack, it's about 25 years after his takeover, which occurred during the steppe-nomad invasion. Karthack has rebuilt, and is now probably the premier power on the continent. It invaded westwards to try and cut off threat of attack by securing the series of mountain forms in the Karthakasel divide.

    With that out of the way, let the actual explanation begin!
    Next post.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)08:55 No.13922531
    (Brief affair before textwall)
    Dear God THE LINKS! Thank you for this bounty of information!

    Why do you despise my players so? She would have a combat pool of around 30. I guess that's master material, but what else do you want me to do, give Cesare 12 TO? Give Cohen Berserker and Accurate?
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)09:06 No.13922575
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    Oh, I forgot http://www.wmacoalition.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=665

    Then again I have a 6+ gig folder on this computer called 'HEMA Compilation'. If you fancy I could upload some of the secondary literature or whatever later.

    As it is, I'm beginning to get guilty about this essay...

    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)09:06 No.13922576
    Alright, here's our situation. The world's all gone to hell in a handbasket. The year is (by the Imperial Ruvian calender) 2230. Not 500 years ago, the Illegosian branch of the Empire fell to the humans, whereas in their last, island bastion of civilization, the Bryzani Elves still keep alive the flame of their civilization, looking enviously upon the burgeoning human kingdoms.

    In the north, to fill the vacuum of the loss of the Empire, the human tribes united under a vibrant new religion, the worship of the God of Cold, Kasel, who gifted the Emperor with the divine right to rule. Tribe after tribe, and kingdom after petty kingdom has fallen to it, until today, it stands united as the KaselReich, spanning from Osterbia (Coughbalkanscough) to the northern reaches of Kyev, to the westernmost shores overlooking the Channel of the Slivers.

    In the western Sliver Islands, a war raged until mere years ago over the Holy Grail, said to contain the tears of the Sun God Genosus, which would confer upon the imbiber the Kingship of the islands. King Edrintror the XIV finally tore this chalice from the hands of the northern Picts, and drank his fill of it, only to find that contrary to what had been commonly believed, Genosus was *not* in fact the brother of Kasel, but his mortal enemy. In response to this news, the armies of the slivers have crossed the narrow sea, to smite the heathen worshippers of the god of ice.

    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)09:07 No.13922582
    In the southwest, the Almoga Elves, followers of the old ways, have arisen to retake from human hands the Iber penninsula, and restore it to proper, Elvish rule. The already war-torn kingdom must now contend with its former allies turning against it, in addition to southron invasion.

    And amidst it all, on the ravaged Illegosi Penninsula, the God-Empress Pzallischka the III, a foreigner given the throne by way of incidental marriage and several convenient accidents, has begun work upon the uniting of the numerous city states that comprise her religious (but not yet political) territory.

    But to the east, despite all the petty bickering of the peoples of Oasa, there looms another threat. Arising from the ashes of a catastrophic invasion, their numbers replenished despite millions lost, and a bold new King in charge, the Karthacks have not forgotten their betrayal at the hands of the western powers, who swore them aid against the Marju hob-goblins, but provided none. The Sorcerer-King Shastamannos turns a hungry eye to the Kaselreich's eastern borders, and means to ensure that their scorning of him does not go unpaid.

    It is a time for kings, moreso than a time for me... It is a time of Total War.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)09:08 No.13922588
    >time for me
    HURR. Men. Time for men. Not me. I would hate living here.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)09:09 No.13922597
    >Tribe after tribe, and kingdom after petty kingdom has fallen to it, until today, it stands united as the KaselReich, spanning from Osterbia (Coughbalkanscough) to the northern reaches of Kyev, to the westernmost shores overlooking the Channel of the Slivers.

    >Coast overlooking Britain (France? Flanders?)
    Sorry, are we talking a pan-Balkan-Germanic-Russian-Belgian Empire? What the fuck happened?
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)09:10 No.13922602
    Sorry, were the Romans elves? I'm going to be pretty mad with you if the Romans were elves.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)09:12 No.13922611
    Poland cannot into fantasy...
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)09:14 No.13922618
    The long story short is that the whole Tuetonic Order thing went better than it did historically. And then other things happened. They're our obligatory Empire. Granted, they're held together by wet newspaper and matchsticks, it'll collapse in a few years, but for now, it's an overwhelming cultural and military force.

    All of this is kind of an aside next to Illegosi, though, which is where the heart of the campaign is to take place.
    >> Ariesus 02/16/11(Wed)09:15 No.13922625
    Find the book Swashbuckling Adventures.

    Skip the fluff and the occasionally terribly balanced feats, and use the Swordsman Schools.

    Problem solved.

    (I know demonoid has the book, and I believe you can find it on ebay for pennies if you want a print copy)
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)09:15 No.13922626
    No no, ridiculous.
    The Greeks were elves. The Romans were mostly humans with elvish blood, or just human. The Iberians in the east were elves, though, until the Celts came and pushed them into obscurity and the moors came and pushed THEM into obscurity.

    They're my little nod to the Almogavars, a bunch of Spaniards who wanted to be Romans and ended up sacking Athens. A bunch of winners, those guys.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)09:16 No.13922630
    The historical HRE was Flanders to Hungary, which isn't too far off.

    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)09:17 No.13922634
    Well by all means, vomit out another four paragraphs on that part. I'll admit, I'm curious as to how the Germans made it into freaking Russia 500 years early (poor taste, sorry) but I'm more interested in the meat of the issue, which is Italy.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)09:18 No.13922638
    I will acquire this book. I like swashbuckling, it is a good term.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)09:19 No.13922641
    Well son of a biscuit. Doesn't explain Russia though, though I guess without a few key defeats, it could've happened.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)09:21 No.13922646
    See, now I feel bad for the regurgitation of text. I'll keep this one brief.
    It's Italy. It's got Milan, it's got Venice, it's got Genoa, Rome, Sicily, Naples, Florence, Bologna, all of those nice, horrible warring city states. They've got different names and anachronistic leadership and a weird Papal analogue going, but they're otherwise the same ol' Italy.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)09:22 No.13922654
    Alright, so we're not going to run into any landmines here right? No curveballs? I don't like curveballs.
    Ok, then I'm going to ask: What's up with the Empress? A title like that implies authority, yet these are warring city states. What's the deal?
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)09:23 No.13922656
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    Including the rampaging English and German mercenaries?
    >> one-eyed hermit 02/16/11(Wed)09:24 No.13922663
    I like t
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)09:25 No.13922664
    I'm not going to lie, I haven't got the details hammered out yet... Mostly because I'm hoping to make that a campaign for the players in-and-of itself. I know them well enough to know that if I give them a stake in the Reich's future, they will take over the world for it, so why put the rails down now?
    Besides, players LOVE marching on Muscovy, it's like the natural state of being for PCs.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)09:25 No.13922666
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    Fuck you, anon. I was just about to suggest a mercenary from the Coastal lands, complete with their own wierd system of fencing - hawkes and rakes and other unintelligible lingo.

    Fucking ninja post.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)09:26 No.13922673
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    I was deceived.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)09:27 No.13922675
    The same troll, you mean.
    Considering that Mair's compedium is based on the contributions of a bunch of fencers he paid to demonstrate as many fencing techniques as they could, things get somewhat fuzzy regarding the effectiveness, realism and actual use of those tehniques.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)09:32 No.13922700
    And with the pleasant addition of vikings!
    The most stark difference between the situation here and the real world, however, is that when explorers found the new world, they found another Rome there.

    Seems an ancient road-building expedition aiming for China ended up hitting a land bridge instead. Walked to Alaska, Romanized northern America, though it kept many native traditions, and it shows.
    This is kind of important to know when considering the Empress.

    So the Empress's deal is that even though the Ruvian Empire fell, many of its political offices remained intact. The Emperor became a significantly less powerful but still influential figure who mostly existed to give direction to the smaller kingdoms that still clung to the idea of the Empire re-uniting the continent.
    This latest Empress, a Polack, ended up in office through extremely contrived circumstances, and by equally contrived circumstances actually holds considerable power, through relatives in other offices and her own cult of personality, Illegosi is actually looking like it might follower her as a whole if she had something to offer it... And she might.

    The wrench in the works is that the old Empire wasn't quite as dead as they thought it was. It just changed its home-office address. The overseas Imperial offshoot is now mightily pissed that everyone back in the old home country has gone all fractious on them, and sooner or later they'll finish off the Aztecs and get around to rowing over to kick everyone's asses.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)09:33 No.13922707
    Wait, what? Did people duel with rakes now?
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)09:34 No.13922711
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    Eh, most of the sickle fighting interpretations I've seen seem quite sound - the same mechanical principles behind the disarms as dagger, the same principles behind the entrapments, locks and throws as dagger/Fiore's stick/ringen. some of the same bind stuff as Dussack.

    Then again, I've never had a play myself. Could all be bullshido for all I know.

    That said, the fuckoff big stick seems to be hanging deflections and beats (a la Fiore's rabbat/culpo de villanio). Seems fair enough to me.

    No idea about the flails though. I leave that shit up to Polish peasants, hanging about in carts with handguns.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)09:36 No.13922732
    You are too kind to me. What gets me is that I'm starting to ponder whether or not putting the players in the northern Empire might not be a better idea than putting them in Italy. Warhammer Fantasy gave me some good vibes back in the day, and it was basically the HRE with more weird clothing and skulls. The KaselReich is just the HRE with more success. In a way, that's as grim as anything.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)09:37 No.13922738
    Well, a skilled fencer could easily apply those principles to any number of weapons well enough to stage a convicing demonstration (ie. get paid). You can, for example, perform a very convincing arming sword drill using a criquet bat.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)09:38 No.13922743
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    >Seems an ancient road-building expedition aiming for China ended up hitting a land bridge instead. Walked to Alaska, Romanized northern America, though it kept many native traditions, and it shows.

    You know, I thought I knew where you were going with this. Then I didn't. And now there are Romans with tomahawks.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)09:39 No.13922748
    Oh my God. Wait, what the hell did happen to Jan? Germans'd never manage to take Poland with him floating around, the Hussites beat their asses under his leadership with great consistency.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)09:40 No.13922753
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    The medieval English sources are a handful of very opaque poems.

    http://www.blackfalconschool.com/harleysolo.shtml for example is about the clearest. The terminology is unique, and there's no illustrations or supporting commentary, unlike the other medieval manuals. There have been some attempts to interpret them, but I'm frankly unsure how confident the interpreters can be given the limits of the source material.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)09:41 No.13922764
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    Off the top of my head, there are about three pre-Early Modern English fencing sources, all of which share the same wierd arse terminology. For example, a section might be:
    Two quarter strikes followed by a round strike will force him to step away.
    Jump backwards with a rake and await your opponent’s next move.
    Attack with a hauk but do not step too far to the side.

    meaning fuck knows. A couple of people are working on interpretations, some with better scholarship than others. It's strange and unknown stuff to me.
    >> Ariesus 02/16/11(Wed)09:41 No.13922767
    Half the point of that rulebook was sword schools in a swashbuckling setting.

    As you're using a more fantasy base than they were, it sounds like, you might have a little bit of work to do. Easy enough, though, I use the different "school" prestiges in a fair amount of the d20 stuff I do.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)09:41 No.13922768
    I realized that the setting was a bit predictable, and I wanted to throw a curveball to anyone who hadn't quite gotten the whole "history is different, so is the land and stuff" thing yet. The Cherokee fighting alongside the Romans against the Aztecs seemed like a good place to start.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)09:43 No.13922779
    "...when I talk about Holocaust type stuff happening in Mexico, you give me this shit about the mean nasty old Spaniards! Why? Because history has been distorted ... As the descendant of people who were expelled from Spain by the Inquisition, I have no illusions about them," Avi says, "but, at their worst, the Spaniards were a million times better than the Aztecs. I mean, it really says something about how bad the Aztecs were that, when the Spaniards showed up and raped the place, things actually got a lot better around there.”
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)09:44 No.13922789
    I feel that that is the least of our concerns at this point. That someone seriously assaulted up to Kiev and *took it* is mindboggling. This ain't your grandma's Holy Broman Empire, that's for sure.
    >> one-eyed hermit 02/16/11(Wed)09:46 No.13922795
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    I feel like drawing something fency now...
    do you want sumfin', Galt?
    >> Alex 02/16/11(Wed)09:47 No.13922801

    Good book, that cryptonomicon.

    I like the one about russian engineers better though, it went: "A series of parabolas is plotted out, the mortar supporting one leg and exploding Germans supporting the opposite. Ask a Russian engineer to design you a shoe, and he'll give you something that looks like the box the shoe came in. Ask him to design something that will slaughter Germans, and he turns into Thomas fucking Edison."
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)09:47 No.13922805
    While I agree in principle that the Aztecs were sort of out of control, that whole plague thing was pretty awful no matter how you reckon it. Nuked an entire continent, that did.

    But on the subject of Spaniards doing it right, you know who manned it out? Pizarro.
    Surrounded by like 80,000 men with the advantage of terrain? Fuck it, bite the head of their commanding body off and spit it at them.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)09:47 No.13922806
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    'Well, a skilled fencer could easily apply those principles to any number of weapons well enough to stage a convicing demonstration (ie. get paid). You can, for example, perform a very convincing arming sword drill using a criquet bat.'

    A decent martial artist could transfer a working system from one weapon to another, well enough to win a scuffle. For example transferring principles from the quarterstaff to the longsword (as Silver tells you to).

    Was there a tradition of fighting with sickles using the Lichtenauer family's system in Mair's day? Fuck knows. Was there a tradition of peasants fighting with what they had to hand? Fuck knows, but it seems reasonable.

    But really, we both agree that Mair's sickle fighting shows an application of Lichtenauer-esque principles to a new weapon, and to the best of our knowledge it seems reasonably effective in the context shown.
    >> Ariesus 02/16/11(Wed)09:48 No.13922810
    There are a few readable ones.
    The first to come to mind is George Silver's manual.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)09:50 No.13922824
    Sir, I would be honored! Does a poleaxe fencer seem fencey enough to you? I've wanted to have a picture of the reigning champion for ages, but I don't like bothering artists for such things.
    >> one-eyed hermit 02/16/11(Wed)09:52 No.13922833
    do give me more description and I'll be at it like a dobberman on a jew anno 1940
    ... yeah that was dark.
    ANYWAYS! I'll start on it as soon as I've found somethign to eat. apparantly I need to eat every day now...
    so yeah! description!
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)09:54 No.13922852
    Am I right in remembering that the tomahawk was developed from the boarding axes of European ships? So if the Romans came by landbridge, their Native American allies might not be armed with tomahawks at all?
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)09:57 No.13922884
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    Paradoxes of Defense is 1599, so I'd argue it is Early-Modern (depending on how to define that, *shrug*). It is though definitely a different system/group of terminology when compared to Man yt Wol (MS Harley 3542) of c. 1400, Cotton Titus A XXV of 1450 and 1465 and Codex Ledall (Additional MS 39564), which is 1535 and 1550.

    I guess Ledall is Early-Modern too, but it does show a relationship with the two earlier ones. Unlike Silver (unless you want to make bullshit ethnic martial arts arguments, like those 'Celtic Martial Arts' views that were debunked lately).
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)09:58 No.13922886
    Of course. My imagining of him was thus:

    A lean but well muscled man, perhaps a hair under six feet, with a narrow, clean-shaven face and black hair pushed back into a tail. His ears show just the faintest hint of being elvish. Always wears flamboyant, fluted armor and wields an incongruously mean spirited looking poleaxe with a deeply sinister axe-head.

    (This poleaxe, for the record, was called The Cold Gate. This resulted in my group nicknaming him "The Dentist," whereas he was officially known as Cesare the Spider.)

    I thank you again, one-eyed hermit. Did you know that you are an ancillary in Empire Total War?
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)10:00 No.13922898
    I did not. I actually know very little about the Native Americans north of the Apache, I'm still doing my research thereabouts. I guess I had always assumed that Tomahawks came later, though, because I know that none of these guys had metal, and in the realm of stone, a war club of some sword would be a better investment than a brittle hand axe.
    >> one-eyed hermit 02/16/11(Wed)10:01 No.13922902
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    I get that alot...
    righto! food then draw!
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:01 No.13922907
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    Oh, not to mention that Silver is incomprehensible and the /b/ of Elizabethian fencing.

    When questioned, one of my old training buddies used to say 'I work from Fiore, but I like to include Silver in my sparring' just to mess with people.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:01 No.13922910
    i do not understand the joke. why the dentist? is it because an axe kind of looks like a toothbrush?
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:02 No.13922914
    >But really, we both agree that Mair's sickle fighting shows an application of Lichtenauer-esque principles to a new weapon, and to the best of our knowledge it seems reasonably effective in the context shown.

    I'd rather say those are universal principles of physics and body mechanics as applicable in martial arts, shown through a less than relevant medium in order to get paid more.
    Why do I think sickles are quite a bit off? Because a person that had access to and used those also had access to a rather large variety of long knives, better developed and documented as a weapon, not to mention immesurably more practical in that role.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:03 No.13922920
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    Thought experiment: athleticism plus skill.

    Imagine how scary Randy Couture would be if you put him in a harness of Gothic plate, and gave him a six foot long hardwood stick with a spike on one end and a claw hammer head on the other.

    Pretty damn scary, huh? Once you've cleaned the shit off your computer chair, lay down some plastic sheeting and think about scary he'd be with five years of practice. Then if he'd trained in a weapons based martial art since he was ten.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)10:05 No.13922929
    You are too kind. Take your time, brother hermit, I have nowhere to be.

    I'm still reeling in shock as to how much text I'm going to be reading through trying to understand all of this. It'd be worth doing just for the pictures though, even if I weren't interested in the subject material. Damn but these people knew how to draw funny violence.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:06 No.13922936
    Congratulations, you've just ruined my floor.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)10:07 No.13922942
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    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:07 No.13922947
    >but their request for our next campaign (after the bloodbath that was our recent attempt at horror) was a Riddle of Steel campaign centered around fencing schools, and the rivalries between and within said schools.

    The Federfechter and Marxbrüder used to hold regular duels. They usually opened them up with an exchange of letters of challenge full of bawdy jokes about the other school.

    The Chinese usually tested people who wanted to challenge them by inviting them in for tea and having the servant clobber them with a stick the first chance they got. According to some old master, that is.

    The Japanese...well IRL they'd come up with excuses to bid you to leave for today and have a group of their students stab you dead in the crowd outside. Or shoot you with arrows. Or burn down the hostel you're sleeping in and shoot you with arrows.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:09 No.13922956
    Dammit Japan!
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:10 No.13922962
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)10:10 No.13922963
    There's something hilarious about a society that has reached the point at which insulting someone's mother before killing him is done in an orderly fashion, with etiquette.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:11 No.13922971
    So we both agree that Mair shows fighting in a new medium (with sickles), using working body mechanics etc., through the lens of Lichtenauer?
    Just spelling out our common ground.

    Fair enough, I agree with you that 'peasants' may have had access to better weapons. But at the same time, we have no context for what is being shown. Lots of the combat shown in the fechtbuchs is taking place in a way defined by things other than absolute martial effectiveness (duels taking place with massive shields, for example).

    You seem to acknowledge the martial 'effectiveness' of the system shown in Mair, but discount the 'soundness' of it because you have a particular interpretation of the context in which the fechtbuch was made.

    Fair enough. I'd prefer to reserve my judgement until more information is available. Is there a translation of Mair available, by the way?

    Even if it was included in Mair for shits and giggles, I'd be interested. After all, fighting with longswords or pollaxes is essentially an indulgence now.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:12 No.13922974
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    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)10:13 No.13922979
    How'd I miss this one? Yeah, he's got the right of it. Toothpaste joke. Also, threatening to "brush your teeth" has never been so intimidating.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:16 No.13922993
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    >Cesare the Spider
    Is he the son of the god empress? Because that would make this actually funny.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:17 No.13922999

    What I've read about the Iranians was that their fencers used to tour the Near and Middle East and India and challenge people to single duels. I suppose taking on a school in Iran would be a really terrible idea as they were kind of integral to city defense. You might win, but then the traders would stab you for fear that some bandits could take inspiration from your recent success.

    The Moro people in the Philippines met during holidays to dunk it out, they seemed to have been part of the general muslim tradition of duelling...dunno how the Hindis dealt with the matter though. Probably like the Chinese.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:18 No.13923005
    Third option: Having shown what you can do with the usual "peasant" weapons like staves and messers, Mair thought there were some cool tricks people used with sickles that were worth recording.

    Personally, I'm damn convinced people fought with them. Look at the 19th Century Greek violence article someone linked to here - a man draws a vine pruning knife in a tavern. I imagine in Germany circa harvest time, people get angry with sickles in their belts.

    The English certainly had well developed systems for using brush hooks and bills...
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:18 No.13923007
    In England, they invite your school to come fight a duel.
    So you go to a hill in Belgium, line up in a mile-long streak, and shoot longbows at each other for six hours.
    Whoever is still alive when the last of the ammunition is wasted is the best fencer.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)10:19 No.13923015
    I am sad that I did not have this idea first. I will refrain, for now, because it would be too easy.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:20 No.13923018
    There is sadly no translation available because of the sheer volume of material, but Mair's latin is quite clear and mostly devoid of jargon, leaving little space for difference in itnerpretation.
    The only point of difference, it seems, is that we disagree about the relevance of the sickle. Let me explain my view: for the sickle to be a relevant weapon, there would have to be a tradition of duels using it (in the vein of German judicial duels using the aforementioned bladed shield). There is no record of such anywhere.
    Now, it could be a case of Mair's fencers demonstrating the principles behind the art using several outlandish weapons to prove their point and milk their employer a bit more OR it could be an acute case of the trolls or fraud.. Most likely, it's a mix of both.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:21 No.13923021
    Archibald Cunningham: Great villainous second, or greatest villainous second?
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)10:24 No.13923038
    I vote C: Tim Roth, best asshole actor ever. Nobody quite captures it like he does.
    >> one-eyed hermit 02/16/11(Wed)10:25 No.13923048
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    ok, pose. something like any of these 4?
    and now I'm REALLY going to go get food. brb
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:26 No.13923050
    Then again, those people were hardly trained masters in sickle combat nor could they afford proper fencing instruction.
    Of course people fought with them. People fight with anything they can swing, including stools, tables and pots. A formal system in the vein of Mair's compedium is quite far from that, though.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:26 No.13923056
    Eh. Cesare the Dentist is actually a really sweet sounding name, no need to cleave too close to history in a setting like this.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)10:29 No.13923086
    I like both Come at me Brow (I) and Crouching Tiger Hidden Poleaxe (II). Whichever you are most comfortable with, I'd say.
    And thanks again, this is radicool.
    Oh yeah. I went there. Radicool.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:30 No.13923091
    Did they even have dentists in the renaissance?
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:31 No.13923107
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    To argue by analogy, we *know* peasants across Europe had traditions of wrestling. Would you say that's clearly impossible, since they couldn't afford to be taught by professional masters?

    Unlike wrestling, fighting with peasant tools wouldn't be done by the nobility, shockingly enough. So it doesn't crop up in historical records as a system... doesn't mean it wasn't taught more informally.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:32 No.13923109
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    True. Unfortunately my latin is bloody rusty. What we have to remember though is that Mair was an intelligent man too, the project took a long time, and he charged the two fencers with perfecting their techniques first.
    Outright fraud seems to me a bit of a longshot.

    Another option - Mair wanted to demonstrate the principles behind the Lichtenauer tradition using several outlandish weapons to prove it's effectiveness, especially when compared to 'Italian' fencing?

    > for the sickle to be a relevant weapon, there would have to be a tradition of duels using it

    That's a reasonably position. Personally, I'd ask 'relevant to what?', to the Lichtenauer tradition? To our understanding of fencing at the time? Take the giant stick - there isn't evidence of it being used in duels either, but I wouldn't question it's relevance to the Lichtenauer tradition, or what is presented's effectiveness (I can see it occouring under certain circumstances), or to our understanding of fencing in Mair's context (ie. time and place, social conditions etc.)
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)10:33 No.13923125

    Can I take a moment to congratulate you two for being so much better at rational debate than disagreeing anons usually are?
    I salute you. I salute you once, and then twice.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:36 No.13923143
    Naw, how would they make drillbits tiny enough out of dinosaur bones?
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:37 No.13923161

    Barbers also pulled out teeth.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)10:39 No.13923178
    Hey guys, I'll be back in like 20 minutes. I know that doesn't mean much, but I've got to go grab some milk. If I am torn apart by wolves, I want you gentlemen to know that you are the finest posters I have ever known.

    Except you, Katanah vs Axe guy. But I still love you anyway.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:40 No.13923184
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    This is /tg/, sir. Not one of your nonsense boards, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

    Have to say I feel bad arguing by analogy, but it's always amazing when a medieval source sheds light on the peasantry and you realise what a soap opera their lives were. Rather than the homogenous downtrodden mass so much history finds it convenient to treat them as...

    Dentistry was often done by barbers. Because your haircut, tooth extraction and amputation were all more hygenic if the blood and clippings went on one floor. OTOH, professional doctors too, if you were rich enough.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:41 No.13923189
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    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:41 No.13923192
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    I think there are actually three people disagreeing here.
    Monseuir Anti-Mair's-Sickles'-Relevance, Mister Comparison-to-Wrestling-and-Greek-Pruning-Vine-Reference, and myself, Herr Should-be-Doing-His-Essay.

    To be honest, I really like HEMA and /tg/. HEMA has it's ego dick waving and shit. But at the core, most people have a lot in common, and are working towards the same goals.

    Besides, all conversations about HEMA are better over a pint in a nice pub with a fire, or in a salle with a sword like object in hand. I know this, and bear it in mind. How polite would I be if Anon was in front of me, explaining some bullshit chi explanation? As polite as I try to be online.

    Unless I feel like trolling the shit out of an ARMA member.

    Besides, I have a feeling that Monseuir Anti-Mair's-Sickles'-Relevance is in the United Kingdom, in which case there's a relatively high likelihood of us meeting at some point. Awesome :D
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:42 No.13923210
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    Forgot to mention that a previous tRoS character of mine was a *village* martial arts master. Wrestling and quarterstaff champion three years running, and then found himself "volunteered" to fight in his lord's service to better make the villagers meek again after thrashing a tax collector with his own tallystick.

    Pic unrelated, but Flower of Battle did stat it up...
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:45 No.13923235
    >Mair wanted to demonstrate the principles behind the Lichtenauer tradition using several outlandish weapons to prove it's effectiveness, especially when compared to 'Italian' fencing?
    This I could get behind, really. The astonishment of coming to a rather gentlemanly agreement on 4chan is astounding, though.
    One must ask, then, how would those informal teachings compare to a clearly structured instruction of, say, master Ringeck.

    And with this I must retire, my Krav Maga starts in half an hour.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:48 No.13923252
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    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:49 No.13923260
    Sadly, I'm rather far from UK and I cannot into space.
    We do have a common hobby in trolling the crap out of ARMA, though.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:50 No.13923277
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    Enjoy. I've got until this evening for freestyle wrestling class with a transylvanian dwarf. No, really.

    I don't know, since Mair seems to be the only place it's really recorded! What's clear there, though, is that compared to early Lichtenauer longsword, there's a lot less messing around with principles (e.g. step with the cut, don't hold your hands forwards to be cut, take the offensive) and a lot more of an assumption that you know how to wrestle and move, and here's some tricks with the sickle in case you're in a fight with it. I'd *expect* that their was less sparring with sickles than with dagger-substites or wrestling!
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:54 No.13923317
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    Thank you and I'll REALLY be off this time. Sheesh, why do those threads always happen when I have something on schedule...
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)10:58 No.13923355
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    Randall Pleasants makes me raeg though. It's just sad that he *is* ARMA's communication with the rest of the HEMA community.

    I should work for the hour or so until archery. Like that's going to happen. Try and get a fech/tg/uy thread going on Saturday? I may be away though.

    Damn it, I want to play tRoS now though. I don't really have time for more RPGs though, especially if I secure a second training night for my group.

    Also, least favourite fencing author?
    >> one-eyed hermit 02/16/11(Wed)11:02 No.13923392
    I have a half-pound beef burger, enough ketchup to kill a small african village, pen, paper and avantasia on full throttle.
    itis GO TIME
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)11:03 No.13923400

    Why bother with ARMA at all? They like their treehouse better than the pub and that's all there is to it.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)11:09 No.13923451
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    Because they are a big body in the States, and I'm sure lots of their members are great guys with similar interests, just like the SCA.

    Also, lots of the academic community see them as synonymous with HEMA.

    Also, they keep pulling shit moves like the UN thing.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)11:12 No.13923478
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    Personally I like pose II. It looks threatenning, has interesting focus points, and is in a lot of fechtbuchs.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)11:24 No.13923553
    I'd love an illustration of an tRoS character too, if you've got the time and would care to try drawing historically accurate padded armour...
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)11:28 No.13923590
    I love padded armour
    >> one-eyed hermit 02/16/11(Wed)11:30 No.13923605
    forgot to namefag
    also: http://www.livestream.com/hermit
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)11:36 No.13923642
    >Also, they keep pulling shit moves like the UN thing.

    Hey, nobody I know would even think of pulling that move. You need to be seriously buttmad that the SCA does not recognize the legimity of your claims to even attempt something like that.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)11:49 No.13923725
    Archiving thread 13921972
    Thread found.
    Thread is not currently archived; creating entry.
    Sanity checking passed. Continuing with archival.
    Downloading images... 50 found, 50 new. Done.
    Downloading thumbnails... 50 found, 50 new. Done.
    Updating links... 0 full images found. 0 thumbnail links found. 0 deleted image links found. Done.
    Creating file... Done.
    Thread 13921972 is now archived. View Here You will be redirected to the archive page in 20 seconds.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)12:13 No.13923867
    >> one-eyed hermit 02/16/11(Wed)12:58 No.13924147
         File1297879128.jpg-(1.97 MB, 2512x3484, fabulos poleaxe sketxh.jpg)
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    primary sketch
    >> one-eyed hermit 02/16/11(Wed)13:12 No.13924256
    hipsfail. must fix
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)13:43 No.13924525
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    On the Paulus Hector Mair works, there is the book Polearms of Paulus Hector Mair that is translated into English, with a bunch of bits on the language itself so with some effort the rest of the sections could be done.

    Its a paperback and not particularly expensive and covers pretty much everything with some form of staff, spear, halberd and pollaxe.

    Its also about the only polearm specific book I know for fightmanual translations, other then the pollaxe works.
    >> one-eyed hermit 02/16/11(Wed)14:18 No.13924827
         File1297883892.jpg-(2.25 MB, 2448x3364, fabulos poleaxe second_0001.jpg)
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    kinda fixed
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)14:31 No.13924939
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    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)15:05 No.13925213
    Looking better. Any news on the progress?
    >> one-eyed hermit 02/16/11(Wed)15:11 No.13925247
    currently being inked
    >> one-eyed hermit 02/16/11(Wed)16:18 No.13925875
         File1297891103.jpg-(2.37 MB, 2512x3484, fabulos poleaxe ink.jpg)
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    inked, but not shaded
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)17:18 No.13926545
    >Slashed breeches
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)17:25 No.13926638
    Hermit, I owe you an apology for my absence. This is mighty cool of you.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)17:26 No.13926647
    >A bunch of students from the university get pissed and cause a ruckus in one of the city's taverns. The Tavern owner demands compensation from the university, which in return claims that they don't apply, special rights and privileged etc.

    Actually, the Tavern owner as an individuum could not sue the University as an organization. That's an anachronism on your part. Or rather...he'd be crazy to try, simply because the students would beat the crap out of him.

    >Some foppish foreigner has come along and says that as a master fencer he will take all challenges, but only at his school and by his rules. Your school can only lose by accepting the challenge, but can they afford to leave it unanswered?

    Beat him up. He's not supposed to be out of the foreigner's quarter anyway.

    >Your fencing master gets an anti-social behavior order for practicing Sword and Buckler late at night and keeping the neighbors up.

    They have a go at it with fists and thrown objects and end up before a court that'll make one of the parties pay for the damage, but nobody would be banned from the city for something like that.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)17:27 No.13926665
    Aww. Those sounded fun.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)17:28 No.13926668
    How would someone play Gregor Clegane in Riddle of Steel?
    >> one-eyed hermit 02/16/11(Wed)17:29 No.13926680
    it was quite fashionable in spain during the 16th century
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)17:30 No.13926681
    I can, and will, answer this. Give me about two minutes to check the book.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)17:36 No.13926742

    I love you, John.
    >> one-eyed hermit 02/16/11(Wed)17:37 No.13926753
    apparantly thats a helbard and not a polaxe due to some technical technicalities.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)17:37 No.13926761
    And I can see why, all the ladies must love it, but damn if it doesn't make me think of pre-ripped jeans. Still that's a pretty sweet picture you've got going there. Props one eye.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)17:40 No.13926783
    Hey, I made a thread and vanished for like five hours, I owe it to the public to bring them Gregor Clegane.
    ...Wait, no, I owe them the opposite, but I'll do it anyway. I've just gotta find the Perk that makes you Xbox Hueg.
    >> one-eyed hermit 02/16/11(Wed)17:41 No.13926798
    dunno how to resize it properly tho
    best I can do
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)17:48 No.13926856
    Alright, it'd definitely be a bit tricky starting out, but if you got a higher level character, and could afford to give him Berserker (from Of Beasts and Men) and High Pain Threshhold (Companion) as gifts, AND crank his Strength and Toughness up to the maximum, you could slowly tweak him upwards until he looks... Maybe something like this, a bit down the line.

    ST: 10 WP: 8 Ref: 6
    AG: 7 Wit: 5 Aim: 7
    TO: 10 MA: 5 KD: 8
    EN: 10 Soc: 5 KO: 14
    HT: 10 Per: 7 Move: 13
    Proficiencies: Greatsword 10
    Equipment: Full Plate Armor (Heavy, AV 6 -1.5 move -2 CP) Full Helm (-1 CP, -1.5 move, AV 6), Greatsword.
    Combat pool in the region of 13, 16 armor everywhere, and a weapon that does 13 damage base... Before entering a berserker fury, which is the scariest thing in this game.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)17:49 No.13926865
    I think it's splendid. One eye wins again.
    >> one-eyed hermit 02/16/11(Wed)17:50 No.13926872
    I have always wanted to play RoS, but say, could you tell me a little about how it works?
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)17:50 No.13926881

    Mother of God, how much rape could the Mountain put out?
    >> one-eyed hermit 02/16/11(Wed)17:54 No.13926925
    about 200kilo Fritzla
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)17:56 No.13926937
    Absolutely! Give me just a moment to compile my words.

    There is no way to make a character that could survive a direct blow from this guy. That's how much rape he can dole out. He himself could survive a grazing blow, but if he gets a good hit in on a clone of himself, even the mountain would tumble. His only weakness is that his combat pool is pretty low, given that he's so massive, so he's slow.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)17:57 No.13926949
    Does that asshole have AV 16 everywhere? That's fucking unkillable, unless you somehow trolled him out of all of his dice and then pole-vaulted over him with a spear or someth
    ...Aww. Now I'm sad.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)17:58 No.13926954
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    Very well, he petitions the college that they belong to, or the royal provost to arrest them, or his Guild petition the University, or his kinsmen etc.
    To claim that there was one legal standard in medieval urban spaces, and that it applies in fantasy land, is silly and anachronistic on your part. I was merely riffing off the frequent Town vs. Gown riots, like in Paris during the reign of Philip Augustus, or Oxford every other year.

    'Foreigners Quarter'? What the fuck is this shit. Sure, a few of the crusader cities were divided into ethnic quarters by local land ownership laws and Russia had a 'German Quarter', but outside of Tzarist Russia the idea of legally enforced ghettos for anyone but Jews is silly. Anyway, I was riffing on the friction between English and Italian styles in Elizabethian England, German and Italian in the Holy Roman Empire, Destraza and Vulgate in Spain, and Destraza and Bolognese in Italy. Hell, you could get around it by it being an Imperial who has been travelling in the Peninsula, some kind of Thibault.
    Also, practising Sword and Buckler was banned from many cities (as was fencing completely) due to the social disturbance it caused. Fines would be more likely, indeed, but expulsion from the city is believable, especially for repeat offenders. See the sources I posted earlier.

    But yeah, feel free to shit on plot ideas because of how you think the law works in a fantasy equivilent of an unnamed Italian city state that someone else is making up.
    >> one-eyed hermit 02/16/11(Wed)17:59 No.13926973
    he'll make a nice boss then.

    also: join our stream for sorta stupid bs:
    >> one-eyed hermit 02/16/11(Wed)18:00 No.13926985
    enter the ballistae
    *looks over stats*
    or...grand bombard
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)18:04 No.13927026
    also poison.
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)18:05 No.13927034
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    Alright. As for the game itself, it's a bit like White Wolf's D10 system, except the other way around-combat is its overwhelming focus, and everything else is secondary. The combat system involves second-long exchanges, tons of maneuvers and dividing up a refreshing Combat Pool of dice between attack and defense, and spending them on moves and whatnot.
    It's all very detailed and tough to explain, but once you get the hang of it it becomes second nature. To a degree.

    The non-combat portions include the skill system, which is functional if not spectacular, and the "Spiritual Attributes," which are basically extra dice that you add to tasks that appeal to your character's motives. Faith, Oaths, Drives, Passions, and Luck are all Spiritual Attributes. These are also how you level up, since each time you use them they increase, they can be spent to increase your statistics or gain proficiencies.

    A word of advice: Avoid like the plague the default setting. It's awful.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)18:08 No.13927071
    From beyond the sands of time, a rebuttal most swift!
    >> one-eyed hermit 02/16/11(Wed)18:10 No.13927085
    I always make my own settings anyways.
    lets get down to the mechanics. I think I understand how skills work. combat and character gen are the big things
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)18:11 No.13927091
    Ballistae, or someone very, very strong with some variety of mace. Your only shot at fighting a guy like this would be to bleed him to death with one of those weapons that automatically causes bleed damage. Nobody's going to get as lucky as Martell did and actually knock his ass over. I mean, unless you're some asshole with a combat pool of 30-something and you use a billhook or something.
    Hmm. Since when does livestream require you to log in?
    >> one-eyed hermit 02/16/11(Wed)18:14 No.13927133
    wait til the dinner after the joust and stab him in the tits using an assassin! harr
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)18:17 No.13927157
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    Oh, that's doable. Character Creation is pretty straightforward, you have... I want to say 5 categories, and 5 letters, from A to E. A being the best, E being the worst.
    Essentially, you assign these letters between the categories-Attributes, Proficiencies, Social Class, Race, and Personality Gifts/Flaws.

    This usually doesn't involve you getting seriously boned in any regards, since E is still human in the race slot, and it only starts changing once you get to B (Faries or some shit) or A (Elves) at which point you've got to put E into a real category.

    With the letters assigned, you are then allotted a number of attribute points based on the letter you put in, similarly with proficiency and skills, so you divide those up as you see fit to give the character his skeleton, and then use the Gifts (or Flaws) to add a bit of personality to him. Spiritual Attributes are a constant between everyone, everyone begins with less than 10 of them, and they're going to be the primary motivating force in the early game. Anyone who actually gets to use his SAs against you in a fight is probably going to kick your ass, that's like 6 dice. Later on, they become a bit less important but still a motivator, as the raw skill of developed characters gets pretty outrageous.

    Next: TO BAHTAL
    >> one-eyed hermit 02/16/11(Wed)18:21 No.13927206
    I think I see...
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)18:24 No.13927233
    Foightin' is a bit tricky to explain, it works better by example, but examples are too situational to be useful.

    So I'll see how best I can make it happen via conventional explanation.

    Basically, each character has what's called a Combat Pool. This is the number of dice they have to spend during each "Exchange." In the first round, they must declare whether they're going Aggressive or Defensive simultaneously, which could result in mutual bisection. Once the fight begins in earnest, however, it's a rapid-fire series of exchanges, each consisting of offense-defense followed by defense-offense, and then the refresh of the Pool.

    In a given Round, for example, Primus might devote 10 of his 14 dice to attacking Secondus. Secondus devotes 9 of his 15 dice to blocking with a shield, and upon succeeding, then uses the 6 remaining to attack Primus, who now only has 4. With that dun, they reset to their original numbers.

    There are somewhere between 10 and 35 maneuvers, each of which does something different, from feints and evasive attacks to grappling and disarmament. There's also the damage tables, which are simultaneously brutal and hilarious. Hold on, I'll see if I have a picture.
    >> one-eyed hermit 02/16/11(Wed)18:30 No.13927296
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    aah, that actually helped ^^

    (pic related. trying to kill mountain)
    >> John Galt 02/16/11(Wed)18:41 No.13927402
    Pavise Handgunners: Trolling your shit since Jan Zizka.
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)19:46 No.13928106
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    >Hurry up! The mountain will be here before sundown!
    >> one-eyed hermit 02/16/11(Wed)19:50 No.13928173
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    oh god! arrows are useless against him!
    >> Anonymous 02/16/11(Wed)20:44 No.13928852
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