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  • File : 1298130443.png-(183 KB, 1094x1032, Great_Turtle.png)
    183 KB Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)10:47 No.13958637  
    Battletech fans of tg/, I come to you today with two topics. The first: I found the rules for Mobile Structures in Total Warfare, and have heard of a couple of designs from a friend, but cannot find any of them. Google searches for technical readouts for mobile structures turn up with nothing. Specifically, I was told of a nine hex beast with 1/2 move and several Long Toms that is essentially a fortress that can move between battles.

    The second point: Great Turtle. I love this thing but its weapons are killing me. I love the idea of a tough to kill mech, but still....
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)11:05 No.13958770
    >Weapons killing you
    Range: 5/10/15 (LL range)
    Ton: 7 (same as ppc or LPL)
    Dam: 9 (same as LPL)
    Crits: 2
    Heat: 14 (almost erppc bad)
    >3 MXPL
    Range: 3/6/9 (LL range)
    Ton: 2 (same as MPL)
    Dam: 6 (same as MPL)
    Crits: 1
    Heat: 6 (tolerable)

    What's the problem?

    It is a bit heaty, but its got a targeting computer, so its alright. Range isn't great, but whatever.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)11:11 No.13958815
    It only moves 4 hexes max and has shit range. You could kill it with a single PNT-9R Panther who walks backward every turn.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)11:11 No.13958818
    It's mainly the heat. Something with its speed, I'd rather have ER Mediums with the TC so that it can target legs. Then it can take its time waltzing up and kicking the enemy to death.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)11:12 No.13958825
    Basically what >>13958815 said.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)11:13 No.13958829
    ... wait. Run that by me again. Mobile Structures.

    What. The. Fuck.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)11:14 No.13958836
    They are structures that are mobile.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)11:15 No.13958837
    Mobile structures... two of them are listed in Jihad Hot Spots: Terra.

    Both are WoB weapons to defend against the inevitable invasion of Earth.

    The first is a massive battle tank, the Rattler II. Several Long Toms and Sub-Capital missiles plus Arrow and a number of other weapons. One huge BEAST to try to take out in a scenario. This is a left over/refit of the Terran Hegemony Regan Space Defense System. 3 hexes in length.

    The other is the Wyrm SDS submarine. This thing is a complete and total monster. 6 Hexes long, 4 hexes wide at her widest, she is a beast. So very heavily armed.

    It also has the updates finally for people who want to get a glimpse at what the Casper defense drones of the age of the Star League were like and on just how difficult a nut to crack a Castle Brian is.

    In essence, if you want to see what mobile structures are really like and how to design/use them... you need to really get JHS: Terra... worth the money to be sure.

    Just... way outside the general range of any friendly game of Battletech.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)11:15 No.13958842
    Heatwise, think of it having only two weapons. The LXPL and a (3x)MXPL. Fire the LXPL only from range 15 to range 7, and fire the MXPLs only range 6 and closer. It has 20hs (10 doubles) right? You shouldn't exceed that, and once you get better at heat management you can fire an extra weapon every few turns.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)11:17 No.13958850
    Thank you!
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)11:18 No.13958856

    Most welcome, always happy to share information.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)11:19 No.13958862
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    Ah. That helps set it all into perspective. No Ghostbusters 2 type mobile structures.

    More like Ace Combat superweapons. That's really quite amusing in it's own right. Hmm... an aerospace Mobile Structure...
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)11:22 No.13958877
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    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)11:24 No.13958887

    >Ace Combat superweapons

    Crap, Those are Round Table Mechs! God Damn Belkans!
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)11:28 No.13958903

    Doable actually... there are zeppelin rules.

    In fact, it isn't too hard to easily do a Crimson Skies type sky carrier when you master the construction rules. Considering that they have done a real super carrier and I have seen some people use the sub-capital AC rules to do battle wagons...

    You can do next to anything now these days with battletech's more advanced construction rules...

    assuming you want to do all the math. Spread Sheets are so much fun.

    Will have to sit down and do the Ace Combat super weapons sometime. Might be fun to do.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)11:28 No.13958905

    I now wish to run a somewhat tongue in cheek "Plane and Merc" like setting using the Battletech universe. How would I go around designing a giant flying wing with Capital scale Weapons?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)11:30 No.13958923

    Get Construction rules and a spreatsheet program.

    Have fun.

    Watch Mechjocks rage as a capital PPC blows an assault mech apart in one turn.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)11:32 No.13958931

    Easy... proper allocation of weight and heat sinks...

    use sub-capitals only... since they are not so rape happy and tonnage unfriendly. A sub-cap weapon is so very much an ace combat super weapon without having to have to have a warship tied to it.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)11:35 No.13958953

    Actually I was thinking more Aerospace and less battlemechs. Basically Planes and Mercs in SPESS. Maybe using the Mechwarrior rules for out of cockpit stuff. Make a list of fighters, players start with a set amount of c-bills, and can either get like a 3025 era heavy fighter or a modern light fighter, or something. Give the party a Leopard CV for a home base, and it sounds like it could go pretty well.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)11:38 No.13958969
    Why not just build a 25,000 ton aerodyne fighter carrier dropship? Fusion powered, unlimited loiter time.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)11:40 No.13958985
    Alright, it turns out the size limit on fixed wing support vehicles is 200 tons, which is obviously far too small for our purposes. So I'm switching to making an Aerodyne Dropship that happenes to be utterly hueg. Probably gonna post most of the stats when I get done.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)11:46 No.13959023

    All things using thrust points require fuel, even the massive fusion drives. If you want to stay airborne indefinitely, you are going to need either constant resupply from fuel tankers or go for something a bit slower like an airship... near infinite loiter time... mass topping at 1000 tons. Bigger than that and you need to go into the mobile structure range.

    There you can get utterly giant with the VTOL mobile structures. Dropships are one thing... they get you from point a to point b... mobile structures are great if you want to hold the planet its on.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)11:56 No.13959066
    Alright, so I'm not very good at this, but since this is basically less a legal unit, and more a mobile plot device, whatever. I guess you guys can always help polish it up.

    Flying Fortress
    25000 ton Aerodyne Dropship
    Tech Base: Mixed (Super secret cutting edge prototype sounds about right.)
    SI: 50
    Length: 421 meters (It has to be long enough to fly down the giant hole in its side or whatever, in order to destroy the fusion reactor from the inside.)
    Width: 520 meters
    Height: 98 meters
    Safe/Max Thrust: 3/5
    Fuel: 1000 tons (543.5 days at 1g, 217.4 at max thrust)
    Armor: 180 tons of clan tech armor, 69/68/67 capital scale.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)12:00 No.13959091

    8 Medium Sub Capital Lasers

    (Point defense weapons are all clantech for ease of calculations)
    18 ERPPC
    12 Gauss Rifles with 3 tons of ammo each
    18 ERLL
    18 ERML
    18 LPL
    32 MPL
    6 LBX-10 with 3 tons of cluster ammo each
    12 AMS with 3 tons of ammo each
    12 LRM-20 launchers with ART-V, 4 tons of ammo
    6 Streak SRM-6 Launchers, 2 tons of ammo each
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)12:00 No.13959092

    Not bad... good for space... has enough fuel to keep in the air for at least 16,000 turns at 1 thrust a turn in the atmosphere. I assume since this is for an AC game, you want to get it atmospheric, right? No trans atmospheric stuff?

    Would have to get the space ship designer out to help polish it up.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)12:02 No.13959100

    A wee bit over the top... for players in a game to take on... but she is definitely on par with the WoB casper drone drop ships over terra.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)12:05 No.13959114

    452 Double Heat sinks to provide cooling for the massive armament.

    Onboard capacity of 72 aerospace fighters and 8 small craft.

    Has a onboard HPG

    Crew of 8 officers, 103 enlisted.

    Has 80 Pilots, 60 techs, and 45 ast. techs for the aerospace complement (I have no idea if thats enough techs or not).

    Also has a full company of marines in battlearmor onboard to fight any attempted boarding actions.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)12:08 No.13959144
    I'd love to fly a Phoenixhawk-LAM into that thing's maw.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)12:09 No.13959145

    Actually I was thinking it might go orbital when it isn't actually raping aerospace fighters in atomsphere, in order to save fuel and shit. Hell its probably big enough to have a grav deck installed. My only worry is that opens it up to danger from Warships, but it isn't like they wouldn't be able to shoot her down if she was hiding in the clouds anyways. I might swap out the LRM-20s for ATM-12s, but the spreadsheet I'm using is woefully out of date.


    Like I said, its more of a mobile plot device then an actual unit. If a player group did attack it, they'd be supported by the better part of an aerospace regiment, probably some assault dropships as well.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)12:11 No.13959163

    Love this idea now that you put it together like that. Green light this.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)12:13 No.13959177
    Ohh and it also has just under 2000 tons of Cargo space for spare parts, extra missiles for the AS Fighters, and all that stuff.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)12:15 No.13959195

    So any other thoughts or criticism of the Word of Blakes latest penile augmentation device?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)12:18 No.13959216
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    >space for 20 Atlases
    Fill it with Atlases.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)12:19 No.13959229
    Oh god. I already had PatUrb, the Patlabor-based police urbanmech patrol campaign to plan. But now, Ace Battle - The Unsung Succession War...
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)12:21 No.13959244

    Personally my favored method of taking it on would be to fly a full star of Kirghiz-C loaded down with elementals into its maw. Enjoy taking on 4 stars of Elementals, marines.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)12:21 No.13959249

    And all of a sudden the next Nanoha season has Battlemechs.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)12:21 No.13959251
    The Periphery used a lot of aerospace units, Aerotech really is tons of fun.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)12:22 No.13959260

    Make sure you have a small craft bay you can land 200 ton fighters on so that you can get resupplied from ground bases... the air carrier/dropship is supporting raids across the planet as a guerilla war staging base... since the ship has enough ammo and weapons to kill a scout plane and hangs in the lower atmosphere except for jaunts into sub-orbit for repositions...

    this is a great idea for a game involving hunting down WoB left overs on a planet run over during the coalitionist campaign against the protectorate.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)12:24 No.13959274
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    >first look at capital weapons
    >naval heavy gauss
    >300 damage per hit
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)12:25 No.13959281
    and too big for our ship... look at the sub-caps... 30 damage is not too bad either.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)12:25 No.13959287

    The bay setup is as follows

    Bay 1: 36 ASF, 4 Small craft, 6 doors
    Bay 2: 36 ASF, 4 Small craft, 6 doors
    Bay 3: 1978 tons of Cargo, 2 doors
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)12:26 No.13959295
    easy then!

    Just make sure to budget a few cargo planes to support our raids and this ship is golden!
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)12:26 No.13959297

    Take a look at the mass drivers then mah boy.

    1000 damage per hit.

    Enjoy fucking the enemies ground forces over.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)12:28 No.13959318

    Mass drivers require capital warships to be mounted. They run the entire spine of the ship. They are far too large for drop ship or mobile fortress instillation.

    They are the spinal mounts from Renegade Legion.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)12:45 No.13959456
    Well, this makes the second crazy /tg/ battletech design I've seen, although unlike the Blaze it actually has a use.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)12:46 No.13959467
    Don't forget the ARG series. They're Super Effective!
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)12:48 No.13959482
    ARG series? Never heard of them, what are they?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)12:59 No.13959569
    It never ceases to amaze me how massive amounts of firepower the big ships in BT can mount. Huge numbers are huge.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)13:03 No.13959600

    And the best part is, the same guy designed both of them. Though this one does in fact, actually have a tactical and strategic use, I guess you could use the blaze for assassinations.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)13:03 No.13959602
    Well, so are the tonnages. But still,

    >Heat Sinks 9,500 Double Heat Sinks
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)13:05 No.13959613

    Seriously. You think clan Snow Raven at least would have designed some kind of Capital Heat Sink. Sure it weighs 25 tons, but it sinks 60 heat.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)13:07 No.13959630

    I seem to recall it being a "Clan Cliffracer" design.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)13:08 No.13959632

    Snow ravens can only do so much...

    They gave us so very many toys to play with. So many of them drifting as wrecks in the former protectorate systems.

    Warships, despite how devastating the 1st and 2nd succession wars, the war of the usurper, or the jihad proved them to be... are so bloody expensive... it would take years and years to see fleets again be that big...

    especially now that pocket warships are around.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)13:08 No.13959636
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    I was just looking at http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Leviathan_%28Battleship%29, too.

    >used to the Battlemech stuff
    >look at capital ships

    >1400 damage
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)13:10 No.13959646
    Generic Battletech question; about how much do dropships cost? Something cheapish and common, like Mules. I've checked Sarna and while they have the cost for battleships, they don't list prices for dropships and jumpships, from what I can see.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)13:11 No.13959659

    Too bad both Leviathans are dead wrecks now... one dying early in a conflict with the Combine pre-jihad and the other disintegrating over Titan thanks to a peacemaker missile.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)13:12 No.13959666
    Plug one of these things into it.

    25 tons for apparently INFINITE COOLING

    I wonder if you could abuse the cargo carrying rules for this?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)13:13 No.13959672
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)13:13 No.13959674

    TRO 3058 has all those normal baseline costs for dropships and jumpships in it.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)13:17 No.13959709

    No... it is actually a nice nod to another old fasa game.

    This is Renegade Legion. BT is set during the 3000's while RL was 6000's. Both have alot of common.

    Infact, the early battlespace rules were adaptations of RL's capital ship rules. The current rules, not so much, but alot of the concepts of bays and fire arcs still harken back to those days.

    One of the main weapons of the RL era ships is that every capital ship carries a mass driver on it. Spinal mount weapons capable of breaking the back of a warship on a successful hit. It made the game into a manuever fest.

    The fact that BT added mass drivers actually allowed me to design a Shiva class battleship and actually make it work.

    It is fun to make a McKenna duel a Shiva.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)13:20 No.13959728
    this post sounds incredibly awesome... Should I mayhaps invest in Aerotech?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)13:25 No.13959779

    It's all in the current rule books... TacOps Strategic Operations has all of the rules you need these days. If you got the four main books, you are set to pretty much design nearly anything you want.

    As much fun as it is to design the heavy battle wagons... it is also fun to design small things too to fill in the blanks... like atmospheric fighters who are much more efficient in an atmosphere to dogfight against aerospace fighters for defense purposes... or actually useful MBTs or IFVs.

    Or even AD2300's jump tanks or hover MBTs that rival renegade legion centurions stuff.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)13:33 No.13959843
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    picture of the Rattler MK2
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)13:34 No.13959857

    God that thing is so beautiful!
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)13:35 No.13959861
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    and the big ass submarine
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)13:40 No.13959912
    >>Jihad Hot Spots: Terra.

    /rs/ of this book please?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)13:42 No.13959926
    >Get TRO 3058
    >Find it completely devoid of any dropships

    Why you gotta be like that?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)13:45 No.13959956

    oooh... 3057... my fault... sorry.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)13:49 No.13959990


    There you go... never say I never did anything for anyone.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)13:54 No.13960048
    >drive around a bit
    >get stuck on soft ground
    >have to blow it up or else it falls into the enemies hands
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)13:54 No.13960052
    About that. Couldn't they just land a dropship in the water an call it a boat or submarine?

    I mean, considering that dropships start at small office building and go up to large stadium size, AND that they can move, shouldn't they be considered mobile structures too?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)13:55 No.13960057
    Ah, okay. Thank you!
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)13:55 No.13960058
    Somebody has a REALLY small Penis.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)13:57 No.13960076
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    pic related
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)14:13 No.13960227

    Naaaah, each type specifies what it can and can not do. Dropships... atmospheric or orbital transport/attack vehicles... their rules optimize them for that.

    Mobile structures... large vehicles constrained to the terrain they are built for.

    Yeah, they are very much like dropships but different enough to have different rules.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)14:13 No.13960233

    From what I understand, Its not that uncommon to do so. Though it does offer a host of new problems, mainly dealing with water going places where it shouldn't if you try to open any exterior doors.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)14:26 No.13960362
    >>13958903 Spread Sheets are so much fun.

    I love you, /tg/.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)14:55 No.13960642

    The best part of this is that pretty much everything relevant already has a price tag attached in the BT universe. You might have to fiddle with the rules a bit, but it sounds very doable. Plus if your players know anything about the setting, the looks on their faces when the radio crackles and has some Clan Star Colonel start issuing a batchall for the backwater world they're on would be priceless.

    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)15:00 No.13960676

    especially if the batchall is done right... with all the right dialogue...

    There is one thing to play clans... its more intimidating if you actually do the proper lines when you issue it... complete with no contractions... and stare at the poor players. They wilt fast.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)15:08 No.13960732

    Bonus points for any of their characters having interacted with the clans on the battlefield before, and knowing how the clans tend to view mercenaries.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)15:09 No.13960752
    I've thought a lot about All-Aerospace mercenary companies, which I figure the upside being that they get paid something like 250,000 credits for 5 minutes worth of work. The downside being that if anything goes wrong, a 10 million credit aerospace fighter becomes a giant lawn dart and the pilot is far, far behind enemy lines.

    I wonder how one prices that.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)15:14 No.13960796

    That is the best part if you can get all the players behind it. It is nice to have a 6 million cbill mech... but a 12 million bill jet twisting and turning is so much more thrilling... as much as I love ground fights, the air is so much more freeing.

    Getting shot down is just half the fun... having to fight your way back to base or for S&R to get to you... that is more of an adventure than ejecting from the walking tank.

    I think I am going to go try to stat a few conventionals just for that!
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)15:14 No.13960801

    Welp I hope he enjoys walking. In all seriousness, most all Aerospace merc groups probably have a dedicated VTOL group to serve as SAR, or they have a line in their contract stating that the employer is responsible for recovery of downed pilots. Hell if you were lucky enough to have a clan Kirghz one of the configurations is designed to carry 10 armored elementals, which is about the same weight as 75 guys or so. Easily enough to carry a platoon of infantry or 4 or so battlesuits and a medic or two. Plus the pilot once you find him.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)15:22 No.13960854
    I really want to run a combo Shadowrun/battletech game. SR for the stuff that happens out of mech, and BT for the stuff in mech.

    I'll get to it right after my Weird West game, Cthulhu Tech one shot, 4e one shot of 3 rangers refluffed as modern commandos taking out a Columbian drug lord, high fantasy zombie survival horror mini-campaign and current 4e fantasy 100 years war game.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)15:23 No.13960870

    I don't see too many Kirghz though being on the market... though you can't help but drool over the idea of getting your hands on one of those old birds... especially as the party SAR vehicle.

    In the mean time, there is always stealing one of the more modern Eisensturm can slip in nicely at 95 tons and being a LAAF boat that should be more available... or if you want Jihad era stuff... there is always stealing a WoB Striga... 85 tons but almost as much pod space as the Kirghz... and faster too. And no one wants to be nice to the WoB.

    Clanner boats are so hard to get your hands on as a merc unit.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)15:28 No.13960907

    Yeah to be fair, I guess you could graft the passenger pods onto any heavy-assault OmniFighter, as long as it was VSTOL capable. Kirghiz was just the first one to come to mind. Don't the Dragoons have a VTOL thats like perfectly designed for this kinda stuff?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)15:35 No.13960962

    The kestral... if you like getting picked up by a hyper active ball of tinfoil. But there are few VTOLs that can catch it and if it is just picking up a couple pilots... packing a pair of battle armors to drive off the locals or act as door gunners would be cool too.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)15:41 No.13961019

    Thats the one. Get one of those, maybe replace the armor with Ferro Fiberous if you have the cash, and you've got a pretty decent SAR VTOL. Probably better then a ASF SAR actually, since its a bit more subtle then coming screaming in at 5000 KPH.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)15:49 No.13961092

    Thing is the Kirghiz is almost too big for SAR. You'd be better with a smaller ASF since you really only need room for maybe a half dozen guys plus the downed aircrew. A kirghiz allows the entire damn company to welcome the pilot back. When he first gets onboard.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)16:12 No.13961305

    They have a RPG system for Battletech already. Its called Mech Warrior. The lastest system came out pretty recently.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)16:14 No.13961326
    This is all kinds of awesome.

    I guess I'm spending my reading week learning Battletech's rules.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)16:44 No.13961595
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    >Mobile Structures
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)16:47 No.13961623
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)16:52 No.13961683

    As long as you keep it UNDER 30 hexes in length.... have fun! *laugh*
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)17:19 No.13961954

    CBT is rather awesome about that. You can build all kinds of cool shit- and when you think you've run out of cool shit to build, they come up with stuff like rules for combat mobile structures.

    It really isn't just "giant robot battling", though that's the core of the system for most folks. You want to have an RPG campaign with a six-pack of balls-to-the-walls aerospace fighters in their Leopard CV, fighting for their lives against a capital-class monstrosity in the middle of a debris ring over some godforsaken Blakist hidden base? Doable. Better be fucking lucky, though. Sub capital/capital weapons have lousy accuracy vs. fighter-sized targets, but most big ships also pack secondary anti-fighter bays full of smaller guns to take care of those.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)17:27 No.13962073

    Only the really big late ships have adaquate anti-fighter load out though... most Star League warships blow ass verse fighter swarms...

    A leopard CV hit and running against say a WoB Essex would be a fun scenario... the Jumpship long gone and not wanting to land to signal pick up via HPG till the Essex has been burned or driven off.

    That could be fun. Perhaps even be part of a drop ship group trying to stay out of the range of the big guns... the fighter their only saving grace till they can make for a releif jumpship waiting for them. This is because even an Essex or a Lola III can tear into a drop ship group.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)17:51 No.13962399
    >You want to have an RPG campaign with a six-pack of balls-to-the-walls aerospace fighters in their Leopard CV, fighting for their lives against a capital-class monstrosity in the middle of a debris ring over some godforsaken Blakist hidden base?

    GOD YES! I don't even know the aerospace rules and I do. I don't suppose this proposed campaign you mentioned would be online and you'd be in the mood for accepting interested players?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)17:58 No.13962470
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    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)18:12 No.13962641
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    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)18:20 No.13962709
    So, what kind of game would it be? Stock TRO aerospace and conventional fighters or a slew of custom designed conventional fighters for a dedicated campaign?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)18:41 No.13962903
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    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)18:46 No.13962940
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    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)19:38 No.13963316
    Anyone feel like doing the newbie runs again tonight? They were rather fun last night.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)19:49 No.13963394
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    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)19:49 No.13963399
    I could give it a go. Hamachi network is "/tg/ - Megamek"

    Server is
    Port is 2346

    I will pilot a Timber Wolf, same as the OP from last night, and for simplicity's sake, let's say 4000 BV to split amongst the newbie team.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)19:56 No.13963459
    what's this all about?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)20:01 No.13963518
    You -yes, you!- could be a contestant on Who Wants to Destroy a Timber Wolf! Simply download the program Hamachi (https://secure.logmein.com/products/hamachi2/download.aspx (Choose unmanaged)), and Megamek (http://sourceforge.net/projects/megamek/files/Current%20Stable/MegaMek%20v0.34.9/MegaMek-v0.34.9.zi

    Once they are both installed, open Hamachi, go to Networks>Join Network and put in /tg/ - Megamek as the name. No password is required. Then start Megamek, clcik Connect to Game, and enter for the server, no password, and 2346 for the port. That should get you into the game lobby.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)20:08 No.13963597
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    I get this when I try to connect to the Megamek part.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)20:12 No.13963649
    Hrm.... and you are using version 34.9 of Megamek? That's odd.... I can't think of anything other than different versions clashing that could cause that.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)20:20 No.13963737
    Get Hamachi. Hamachi helps get past this problem. It also let's you know your IP just in case you don't know it by memory.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)21:05 No.13964169

    what are these from?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)21:07 No.13964195
    One of the more recent Armored Core games by the looks of it.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)21:55 No.13964659
    I seem to have a very crap connection to this server. Makes me sad.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)21:57 No.13964673
    Armor Core 4, and Armor Core 4 Answer.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)22:45 No.13965133
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    >> Crix !!nLvSV/0cRma 02/19/11(Sat)23:03 No.13965336
    Is there gonna be a new game up?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)23:05 No.13965350
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    Such is life in BattleTech.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)23:13 No.13965428
    People were switching over to 35.21
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)23:20 No.13965482
    Ok, previous server is dead because Abe went POOF. There a new one up yet?
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)23:20 No.13965486
    I'll try hosting at

    with version 0.35.21
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)23:34 No.13965622

    Seems like 0.35.21 doesn't want to work with hamachi or something
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)23:36 No.13965648
    Seemed like it was working for a second.
    >> Anonymous 02/19/11(Sat)23:38 No.13965673
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    Can I get a /rs/ of Tactical Operations or what ever book Mobile Structures CONSTRUCTION rules are? I have been looking for awhile and my buddies don't believe that there could/would EVER be rules for this level of Overkill.

    Thanks in advance.
    >> Crix !!nLvSV/0cRma 02/19/11(Sat)23:40 No.13965694
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    Well I have both versions now
    >> Vollstrecker 02/20/11(Sun)00:25 No.13966135

    Sweet, I'm internet famous! We got a new server up tonight?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)00:28 No.13966168
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    >> Vollstrecker 02/20/11(Sun)00:34 No.13966220
    Neither of the posted IPs are working for me. :(
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)00:42 No.13966321

    They're in Tactical Operations- sadly, all I have is the hard copy of that one. And yes, they very much do exist- page 259 of TO.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)00:47 No.13966376
    Ok, I just tried "Start a new game" and it then proceed to list 14 different machine IPs. How do I tell which one works?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)00:52 No.13966437
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    Sooo.... whats everybody's opinion on the Charger?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)00:58 No.13966508
    Base version? 80 tons, only 5 small lasers. I think that should answer the question.

    CGR-1A5 has an AC 20, 2 x SRM6s, a Med laser, and a small laser. Much better.

    CGR-1A9 has 4 med lasers and a LRM 20, plus 4 jump jets. Also much better.

    And so on, for all the variants. Base version is shit, other versions are at least decent.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)01:06 No.13966619

    Probably the most improved from it's original incarnation.

    The original is an 80-ton meleer with popguns and modest armor, hideously expensive thanks to the big 400-rated engine.

    On the other hand, it then spawns a number of variants, including a quad-large laser version that rivals the Awesome for firepower, a few more listed before this post too.

    Then you get stuff like the Hatamoto line and the 3050 refits, and the Charger line gets to be a respectable one.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)01:13 No.13966679
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    I'm making some custom meks' for my gaming groups alternate universe and i'm doing pretty well.

    But what my question for you guys is: what are the best light meks' so I can get something to base my light mek' forces on?
    All i got so far is a Locust knock-off and a pseudo-Mercury.
    >> The Pole 02/20/11(Sun)01:24 No.13966814
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    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)01:26 No.13966839
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    >Dat Commando
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)01:28 No.13966861
    You just have to know what you want to do with your lights.

    Panther - The light sniper. Slow, but that PPC means you can park it at a distance, and being a light 'mech means that it will likely be ignored until the last.

    Jenner: Hit and Runner - Four medium lasers and an SRM 4 on a fast moving unit makes it perfect for running behind opponents and coring their back armor, and then running/jumping away to cool back down.

    Commando/Wolfhound - Sacrificing engines for the most hurt something of it's weight can dish out

    Spider - light, fast unit less made for hitting hard, more for absolute movement flexibility. Good luck trying to land a shot on it's +4 movement modifiers.

    So yeah, think about how you want to use the unit, and then come up with ideas based on that. It will likely involve energy weapons and SRMs as it's base, either way.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)01:40 No.13966979
    I did a very successful Spider clone.
    35ton, 3 med pulse, 7/11/7 beast that kills most mechs by jumping behind them.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)01:44 No.13967013
    Medium pulse lasers are easily my favorite CC weapon.

    Still, designing a 'mech is based purely on what's available in a given era or the complexity of the game. If you're doing introbox stuff, then you won't have the pulse lasers to play with.

    Still, you can't go wrong with a medium laser array.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)02:10 No.13967233
    30 ton mech

    15 tons of rocket launchers
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)02:12 No.13967256
    It would be cheaper just to use a light hovercraft.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)02:23 No.13967343
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    Good Clan lights:

    - Locust IIC
    - Incubus
    - Adder
    - Firemoth [Mostly because it's cheap and can carry battlearmor]

    - Cougar
    - Kit Fox

    Shit tier
    - Mist Lynx
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)02:46 No.13967549
    >- Firemoth [Mostly because it's cheap and can carry battlearmor]

    There are some Firemoths that cost more an clan assault mechs
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)02:49 No.13967571
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    Delicious MPLAS... *drool*
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)03:17 No.13967777
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    That's the Firemoth D

    It's an excellent example of what is wrong with the BV 2.0 system. Lots of guns + Lots of speed/maneuverability + tcomp + MASC + clan tech = extremely expensive. IIRC something like 3100 or 3400 BV for a D with a 3/4 pilot, and it dies when you swat it with an AC/10.

    Any unit with both jump jets and MASC also shows this off. BV 2.0 punishes maneuvering too much. Just as an example - MASC can outright destroy your mech on a failed roll. A leg crit to a fast medium is plain and simply a death sentence, and makes it utterly useless in its role. Once it happens, the mech can be effectively written off.

    Despite that, MASC not only adds onto the BV, but adds onto the BV as if the unit in question was *always* moving at full MASC speed. Which is never even the case - it needs to be used selectively. This ultimately adds a LOT of BV to the mech.

    BV 2.0 should've been getting balanced based on feedback after it came out, but it never was, and it's been entirely up to the community to effectively balance the game in competitive settings properly, as the guys at Catalyst don't seem to care about it. They put out BV 2.0 and then basically dropped all balance discussion like a rock.
    >> Crix !!nLvSV/0cRma 02/20/11(Sun)03:19 No.13967786
    >There are some Firemoths that cost more an clan assault mechs

    what am I reading.png

    In BV or c-bills? Or Both?
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)03:30 No.13967851
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    For some of the most important / critical balancing changes:

    - Jump Jets and MASC need more appropriate BV modifiers.

    - The game desperately needs official weighted initiative rules to prevent one person from winning initiative 6 rounds in a row. [It's a very easy rule - after the first or second lost init, the other player starts adding +1 to his roll for each subsequent initiative round he loses]

    - Clan units are all around too expensive for what they accomplish, and are very prone to luck [headcaps, TAC's] destroying their chances. Mekwars Legends settled this satisfactorily with an Edge reroll. Each Clan mech had Edge 1, that would be used to re-roll the first headshot or critical hit. I additionally think that a +1 initiative bonus for the Clan player, either in addition to the edge or as replacement, would DRAMATICALLY help out against the IS swarm tactics that tend to utterly rape Clan players/forces.

    - Increasing the BV for armor. The choice between a Timber Wolf and a Dire Wolf gets a lot harder to make when they both cost the same BV, but the Dire Wolf has twice the firepower and durability.

    - Making a PSR roll to jump into heavy woods. [Another mekwars legends rule]
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)03:35 No.13967871
    The only mech with MASC and JJ's that I like is the LNG-2K Legionnaire.

    It doesn't get raped by BV because it only has 1 weapon.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)03:39 No.13967895
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    In BV.

    Firemoth D - 3184 BV
    20 Tons, 38 points of armor
    10/15(20) (MASC) XL Engine
    5x ERML [Heat cap allows 4 to fire, 5 overheating]
    1x Flamer
    Targeting Computer

    Marauder IIC 5 - 3293
    85 Tons, 220 points of armor
    4/6 Standard Engine
    2x ERPPC
    2x AP Gauss
    1x HAG/20

    Marauder IIC 4 - 3293
    80 Tons, 230 points of armor
    4/6 Standard Engine
    2x ERPPC
    2x ATM 6
    1x ERSML

    XL Engines mechs are easier to destroy than Standard Engine as well. XL Engine = engine crits in side torso; Standard Engine = Engine crits in center torso only.

    Which means a Standard Engine mech can lose both side torsos and keep fighting. A Clan XL mech that loses a torso is essentially crippled. An inner sphere XL unit that loses a side torso dies.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)03:40 No.13967903
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    The Executioner, a clan omnimech, gets absolutely raped by the BV for MASC and JJ's.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)03:48 No.13967952
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    Should be "Warhammer IIC 4" not "Marauder IIC 4"
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)03:49 No.13967960
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    I'm so glad I never field any Clan meks'...
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)04:00 No.13968025
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    Clan mechs, especially due to how expensive they are, require a LOT of finesse to get what you need out of them.

    I'm okay with this, but it's tipped just a little bit too much in favor of the Inner Sphere recently - especially now that the IS is pretty much at tech parity, fielding stuff like c3, heavy PPC's, TSM, etc. etc.

    The Firemoth D for example, isn't outright worthless - The Tcomp, speed and ERML's should mean that you can move for a +4 behind a mech at a distance of 10 hexes and snipe him in the back without being touched. At least, on paper.

    In reality, it's a massive priority target both because of what it *could* do in the right hands, and also because it's friggin 3100 BV and worth the same as a Clan Heavy or Assault. So you get 3 or 4 mechs focusing fire on it, and by turn 3 one of those 11's finally lands, and the Firemoth detonates into a fireball before really having done anything.

    And god forbid your opponent is intelligent and brings along something fast with pulse lasers, or even just some tonks and BA [fenrir especially]. Because then you've pretty much just wasted 3100 BV on a mech that's going to die well before it hurts anything significantly.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)04:13 No.13968122
    Anyone up for a game of megamek?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)04:14 No.13968127
    The Coug really fits into that "light-sniper" category with the Panther. Problem is, it's got so much firepower (2 CERLL and 2CLRM10 in the prime) that it gets the mad hate, unlike the Panther (which is an irritation, but hard to swat). The panther also has jets, which let it bug out of a shitty situation even if it overheats. The Coug has... 4/6. I stiill love the little whores though - I run 2 of them as fire support in my Light Nova.

    The Vix is just a "real" Phoenix Hawk IIC. Hot swappable arm mount, good movement, etc.
    Peregrine is pretty nice - a 6/9/6 Zaku with a targcomp and pulse laser battery

    You also left out the Solitaire, Jenner IIC, and Locust IIC in your "god tier"...
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)04:28 No.13968213
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    The cougar is one of my most favouritest mech designs ever.

    But it's too expensive and dies too goddamn fast that I just gave up ever actually using them.

    >Jenner IIC
    >god tier

    The only thing I've seen Jenner IIC's being useful for are 1. Loading up with infernos and heating things up, and 2. slamming into the rear of a thunderbolt at maximum speed and stackpoling.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)04:29 No.13968220
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    Also, I'm not up for playing today. But I might try and set up some games tomorrow.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)04:30 No.13968230
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    I just don't get the pilot value rules. A Warhammer IIC 4 costs 2.3k with a 4/5 pilot. And in that form, it can casually trounce anything and everything from IS in it's price class that as much as looks at it in a funny way.

    Meh. Are you guys still playing the rookie matches, though? Yesterday was fun.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)04:37 No.13968255
    The biggest problem with pilot levels is raising skills is based off your total BV.

    Gunnery skill makes your weapons better so it should only effect your offensive BV. It shouldn't make your ECM and AMS cost more.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)04:40 No.13968272
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    A 3/4 pilot multiplies the base BV [what you get with a 4/5 pilot] by 1.38, so basically adding a Clan pilot increases the cost by nearly 40%.

    3 gunnery instead of 4 increases your chances of hitting. The difference between rolling a 10+ and a 9+ is pretty significant. Likewise with 4 piloting instead of 5, [although it's less important] means that you'll fall over less often when taking damage or making PSR's.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)04:44 No.13968287
    Yeah. While I like playing clanners or otherwise highly skilled pilots more, I can't help but feel that quantity tends to beat quality, especially when it comes to heavier mechs.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)04:48 No.13968303
    Just made a thread here
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)04:48 No.13968305
    Yeah, slow units with heavy armor and weapons cost a good bit less that fast units with a lot of weapons and low armor.

    The BV of fast units assume you have unlimited space to run around and take pot shots at long range and doesn't take into account that you cant do anything if you lose int.

    Where as your big fat assault can just slowly walk forward and back and wait for that 1 good shot that cripples the fast guy.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)04:53 No.13968328
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    If the Clan players were given a +1 bonus to initiative every round, it'd help ensure that even the swarm armies have at least *some* difficulty against Clanners.

    To me, it even makes sense fluff-wise. Clanners are supposed to be good at combat, and winning initiative is just something that 'clicks' with that.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)05:11 No.13968450
    The Strategic Ops rules have force quirks.
    In Operation Klondike, not to mention Golden Century, most Clanners get a boost to initiative for doing something. Wolves, Coyotes, and I believe the Turkeys get it for honoring Zell, etc.

    I'll go look up the pages in a sec.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)05:52 No.13968688
    My bad, it's TacOps, pg 250 - not StratOps.
    Battletech - Tactical Operations

    In other news, the quirks are on pg 148-9 of Klondike, the which I have uploaded here:

    Battletech - Operation Klondike
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)07:53 No.13969313
    I understand the BPV 2 complaints but after years of watching the clans dominate the game to the point that there was no point to playing IS, it was nice to see the over pricing of the clan war machine.

    This become deathly evident when the local gamers in my area decided to teach about four new people in person how to play. Dragging two clan players kicking and screaming back to the succession wars era and forced to drive mediums, the game suddenly actually went long again.

    Ammo bins actually ran out of shots, people unaccustomed to actually having to deal with heat or massive to hit bonuses were a bit shocked.

    The shock of actually having to close instead of sniping with ERs or getting auto wins with clan pilots and PLas or actually having minimum ranges on weapons was something of a wake up call for them... as was not having Double Heat Sinks.

    When they got to run their clan mechs the next game, they really appreciated the fact that their mech was indeed worth that much more.

    Honestly, the price is extremely fair considering that they are moving far too fast and carrying too much for the size (Yay XL engines and efficient endosteel), over armored for what they carry (yay efficient Ferro-Fiberous), extremely efficient weapons (lighter, out ranging, cooler, doing more damage... usually choose 2 or 3 traits for any weapon), and a superior pilot.

    Trust me, when we explained to the new guys that a clan pilot if he is driving the right mech will get a -4 to all his to hits at range 20 for 10 damage and 10 heat (Clan pilot, TC, and LPL) for only a small tonnage weight, they cried foul immediately.

    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)07:55 No.13969323

    It was actually funny trying to watch the Clan players trying to justify it to the four new players that they deserve all the top flight gear while me and the other IS player just smiled quietly and went back to checking rules, letting the newbies do the ranting for us. BPV 2.0 was about the only thing that could get them to calm down, after explaining the costs of it all to them.

    So yes... I have no problem with watching the clans have to pay out the nose to get their over performing super boats. If they want to get a -2 to hit with ER medium lasers while running at speed 15 with bursts of 20, by god... for the sake of never being able to hit the fucker... make them pay for it and keep paying till they are bled dry.

    It is funny how much of a new perspective new players (BTW, they weren't young, they were actually members of our local Wargamming club who wanted to try out the game because we were playing it... ages ranged from 21 (the youngest) to 48 (the oldest)... so you can't cry they were all kids who didn't know better... these were experienced historical gamers for the most part)
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)08:31 No.13969522
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    >people unaccustomed to actually having to deal with heat

    Bit bullshit there, Clan units have to deal with heat just as much as, if not more than IS units do, even the 3025 ones. Just because Clan machines have compact double heatsinks doesn't mean the mechs never overheat. Most Clan designs are stuffed with so many guns that you can easily shut yourself down or blow up ammo from an alpha strike.

    And anyone who doesn't ride the heat curve with Clan mechs doesn't know what they're doing. Some units even *require* overheating to be properly useful - like the Adder Prime or H, where you need to cycle your firing. One turn, overheat and fire both guns, next turn cool off and fire one gun, repeat. Drops your movement to 5/8, but that's still respectable enough for the Adder.

    But all that aside, you're basically arguing that since things were unbalanced one way before, now they should be unbalanced the other way in vengeance or retaliation or whatever. And that's just stupid.

    The fundamental problem with the Clan forces is that they are overpriced right now. This can be further broken down into a few critical areas:

    First, Clanners field fewer units because of their price. This is how it should be, but it means that a little luck - a headshot, a through armor critical, especially one early in the round, can put a full stop to a game right there. It's why armies made only of Gauss rifles are so popular against Clans. You land a headshot on the first turn and you knock out 20% or more of the other player's force immediately. Against an equally skilled opponent, that's unrecoverable. [Solution: Edge solved this very well]
    >> The Pole 02/20/11(Sun)08:31 No.13969525
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    pic seemed appropriate at this time
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)08:33 No.13969536
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    Second, thanks to the smaller numbers, Clanners are more prone to being swarmed by IS units. In fact, the best tactic for taking out a Clan player, and one that I've seen almost always guarantees a win - is to simply spam a bunch of movement blocking, cheap vees, and a pile of medium IS mechs. The vees scoot in front of the Clan mech so it can't move forward - *even if he won init* - and then you just surround and tear apart the clan unit now that he's unable to keep up his distance or maintain a good movement modifier. [Solution: There's really not much you can do beyond extra army composition rules]

    Third, Clan units have to rely on fighting at long range with pulse lasers and ER lasers because getting up close and brawling with the IS is tantamount to suicide. Unfortunately, this means any close-knit terrain with few maneuvering options will favor the IS unless the clanner brought jump capable mechs. For Clanners, engaging at short range will get you stomped unless you specifically prepare for it. They have to play to their strength, and the Clan strengths are speed, range and firepower. When you're given the choice between closing in and probably getting your shit wrecked, or staying at range and basically tearing apart the enemy without him even doing much back to you, well... people aren't stupid. They go with what works. [Solution: +1 initiative for the Clan player - essentially useless for sniping at range, but encourages brawling and actually fighting with the IS machines up close.]

    Ultimately, these are just roundabout ways of simply reducing the BV price of Clan mechs. [Except instead of reducing the BV, they add extra abilities at no cost]
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)08:35 No.13969553
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    Personally, the biggest problem I've always had with Clan vs Inner Sphere fighting, is that there isn't enough incentive for the Clan player to actually get into the fight and brawl. So you get the Clanner playing hide and seek at 15+ hexes, while the IS player chases him around, and it's simply no fun. But since the Clanner can't compete at brawling range, this is the only real option available to him. There have been some token attempts at improving the Clan's close range ability with the introduction of HAG's and Heavy Lasers, but the weapons themselves aren't good enough to really encourage close range fighting.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)11:29 No.13970517
    >but I keep dying to my opponent rolling 12 and 2 on the hit table!
    Suck it up. Clan are high risk, high reward and have to deal with putting most of their eggs in very few baskets.

    Also clans have plenty of second line units to sacrifice for their omnimechs when fighting against IS forces. Learn to use more, cheaper units.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)13:18 No.13971326
    >For Clanners, engaging at short range will get you stomped unless you specifically prepare for it.

    Um... no. Seriously, their close range firepower is also greater than the IS. Heck, their SRM launchers are half the weight, their LRMs have no minimum range and the lasers all do more damage.

    The only reason your get 'stomped' as clan at close range is because the IS can actually shoot back instead of having a couple Gauss or ER-PPC per mech as their only offense.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)16:30 No.13973236
    Are these new "classic" BattleTech books compatible with the old FASA books? Are there any changes?
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)16:59 No.13973510
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    Yeah no, it's not as easy as you two think it is. Try playing Clan against some decent folks? Try not just irrationally hating on the faction?

    Playing Clans requires a great deal of experience. You won't win against anyone at first, even the bad IS players, until you know every single movement rule and terrain modifier like the back of your hand. At least with IS forces you can fuck up somewhere and it's alright. You fuck up with a Clan unit, once, and it potentially ends the game.

    >Seriously, their close range firepower is also greater than the IS
    At short range, you are within medium or short range of Inner Sphere weapons. In a BV-matched fight, the *overall* firepower is more or less equal [if the Clanner picks the right mechs, or favors the IS if he doesn't.] between both sides, but the tonnage and amount of armor *is not*. This means that a straight up even shooting match is an automatic advantage to the IS. If the Clan player did not move, he would be dead. When you get into brawling range, you are specifically putting yourself at a disadvantage against the greater numbers, equal firepower, and greater armor of the IS forces at a position where they can hit you back as much as you hit them. If you lose init twice in a row, that could basically be the end of the match for you right there. The absolutely vital thing to do when moving into brawling range as a Clanner is to backstab and losing init means you can't. There is too much reliance on luck for the Clanner to effectively compete at that distance.

    So instead Clan players engage at long range where the IS player can't hit back, and then the game gets boring and turns into the IS player rolling to land that 11 with a gauss rifle for the next 10 rounds while the Clanner plinks at him. This is a fundamental problem with the design of the weapons and it won't change until either the Clans get better at brawling, or the IS gets better at plinking.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)17:00 No.13973514
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    >Also clans have plenty of second line units to sacrifice for their omnimechs when fighting against IS forces. Learn to use more, cheaper units.
    Secondline Clan units are not cheaper, and using more, cheaper, units does not work. You don't HAVE cheap units as Clan. You can't throw in any kind of filler unit to soak up damage acting like a sacrificial lamb like you can with the IS. Every single unit is completely vital to the force, and you need to design in the absolute most BV efficient way possible to even begin to compete against the good IS players. Even the bloody battle armor is 500 BV or so - IS players can take MECHS at that price.

    >a couple Gauss or ER-PPC per mech as their only offense.
    For the Inner Sphere? Hardly! I don't know what it is with you folks but you're doing it wrong if you're trying to outsnipe the Clan forces. That's what Clan units are good at, why are you playing to their strengths? Stop bringing Gausszillas like the Pillager, or slow pondering monsters like the Atlas. They're not worth it against Clanners. You need mediums and lights, maybe a couple heavies, and vehicle support. You need units that move 5/8 minimum and keep up with the Clan units. You need to box him in and constantly kick his legs, punch his head, and harass his rear armor.

    But this really illustrates my point - Even when you're fighting on the Clanner's terms, you still win often enough as Inner Sphere that you don't need to switch up your tactics and engage the Clanner properly.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)17:01 No.13973528
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    There's been quite a few changes. The new Total Warfare alone covers all the rules you need to play though.

    Tactical Operations and the Techmanual are just extra.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)17:48 No.13973932
    I'm neither of the two you're responding to, and pretty new to Battletech myself, but your talk of how the Clans cannot into brawling as well as IS doesn't seem to hold up. As has been said, Clan has Streak SRMs and their LRM and base SRMs weigh half as much as IS version, and LRMs don't suffer any minimum range penalties. And let's not forget the big Ultra AC/20, if that doesn't constitute a short-ranged threat I'm not sure what was (inb4 you give several examples). And several mechs carry such a weapon, such as the Summoner. Admittedly, a lot of Clan designs do seem to focus on long-range firepower, but such configurations don't really lose effectiveness as they close like IS forces would due to minimum ranges, with the exception of Gauss Rifles. I also am not sure of all this talk of Clan needing to move. ALL mechs need to move to be better protected, not just Clan. Clan mechs, in my limited experience, have just as much armor as IS mechs, if not more from the better Ferro Fibrous armor. In the end, Clan tech is better than IS tech in every way. You simply cannot say that they are worse than the IS at brawling because any mech will do better in just about every capacity if it was made with Clan technology. You paint the Clans as fragile speedsters but I've yet to see anything fragile about them, with the exception of light mechs but that's pretty universal.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)17:58 No.13974050
    One last point. You make mention of how good IS players can usher Clan units around, etc. But you forget that the vast majority of players aren't what most competitive players would consider good. And when you are seeing it with two fairly unskilled people who just want to see mechs shooting at each other, the sheer blunt advantage of Clans wins the day every time because unless your opponent is good then you don't need skill to use them and make them preform better. Take a look at these posts.


    As you can see, clan tech trounces IS tech and, in the hands of the majority of players, that is more than enough. Even going against someone with some skill it's not hard to eke out a win when you're sinking twice as much if not more heat than them, when your ER weapons do more damage for the same heat, when you can have more LRMs due to decreased weight, and when most of your weapons have longer range. And if you are skilled and going up against skilled IS players, then you should win consistently anyway, again, because Clan tech outdoes IS. And if the problem is that it's not fun, then play IS, or convince your opponent to try out Clan, or ask for a "handicap" so you can field an extra mech or vehicle if you really think you need it to help against superior numbers.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)18:12 No.13974205
    >Mobile Structures may not be constructed as Omnis. However, they may be constructed as special “Modular Structures” that can link up with other Mobile Structures of similar motive type and movement rates.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)18:31 No.13974448

    What kinda of thing would we design with that function?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)18:38 No.13974505
    What wouldn't we design? For example

    >flying fortress which can combine
    >cover the sky with flying fortresses completely encircling the planet
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)18:38 No.13974507
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    You are utterly missing the point.

    >Clan has Streak SRMs and their LRM and base SRMs weigh half as much as IS version, and LRMs don't suffer any minimum range penalties. And let's not forget the big Ultra AC/20

    All this? It doesn't matter. You only see the tech difference, and then go "Oh well then that means the Clans win all the time"

    You aren't even considering anything else.

    >You paint the Clans as fragile speedsters but I've yet to see anything fragile about them, with the exception of light mechs but that's pretty universal.

    Obviously I have not been clear enough with what I'm saying. Stop thinking about how awesome the Clan tech is - that's got nothing to do with this beyond the high BV price for the stuff.

    >how the Clans cannot into brawling as well as IS doesn't seem to hold up.

    It does hold up, and you have specifically ignored the key points I made about why. Clan machines are more expensive, on paper you'll quickly see that a Clan mech has a lot of firepower and speed packed into its frame. A Timberwolf is easily worth the firepower of two or three IS heavy mechs. What you *completely* glossed over was the fact that the Timberwolf's armor is *not*. So the IS player fields 3 heavies, that in itself is a tactical advantage just by having the BV distributed over more units, thereby being less prone to luck related kills like headshots, as well as an advantage in initiative as he can use up other "useless" units as initiative sinks during his turns in the movement phase, while keeping his important units near the Clan mechs ready to strike AFTER they move. Which just makes winning initiative for the Clanner meaningless.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)18:39 No.13974514
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    On top of that, the three IS heavies have 1.5-2x the armor of the Timberwolf [at least!]. Let me say this again - the Timberwolf and these three heavies, are evenly matched in overall firepower [and speed if you pick the right IS heavies] but they are NOT evenly matched in armor!

    Actually, to flesh this out even more, lets actually compare some units here.

    A Timberwolf A; 3939 BV - 5/8, 230 Armor, Heat Stable Damage: 63
    Champion 1N2; 1233 BV - 5/8, 143 Armor, Heat Stable Damage: 38
    Quickdraw QKD-C; 1343 BV - 5/8/5, 143 Armor, c3 linked to Grand Dragon, Heat Stable Damage: 28
    Grand Dragon - DRG-9KC; 1262 BV - 6/9, c3 Master, Heat Stable Damage: 25

    Add up the BV and you get 3939 vs 3838
    The IS force is more maneuverable and faster
    The IS force has 216 points more armor
    The IS force does 28 points more damage
    The IS force has 2 more units
    The IS force has a c3 link
    The IS force is cheaper

    You think the Clanner can compete at short range against this? You are nuts. The only advantage he has is to engage at long range using his superior gunnery skill, and even then the player controlling the Timberwolf needs to be very careful with his movement so he does not get swarmed and forced into close range combat, especially when his opponent is faster than him!
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)19:41 No.13975198
    So your whole spiel is basically, Clans field less units compared to IS and they suffer for it. No shit. Welcome to the expensive, high-quality low-numbers army/faction. Don't like it? Play with cheaper mechs so that you can have more of them. The Timber Wolf ain't the only Clan heavy.

    Yeah I think Clan can compete at short range with that. You put a long-range specialist in against three clearly close-range specialist mechs and you act like how that makes all Clan shit in close range. If you want to brawl you bring a mech made for it, you want long range shooty you do that. Mad Cat is long range, of course it fails to stack up up close.Your talk of initiative does have its merit, yes, but if you win initiative then that's still meaning that your mechs move after the enemy. Can the enemy use vehicle fodder? Yeah. You're Clan, you use BATTLE ARMOR. There's your fodder. And if it's one against three and you win initiative then you're still going to go after all the three enemy mechs.

    So yeah, they have more damage, armor, etc overall. You're still probably going to destroy at least one of them before they get into range Anyway, I'm not going to bother trying to hold my own in an argument with you. You've put more time and effort into thinking of all this, but more importantly, you're far more vested in it.

    I'll leave you with this. If you are not satisfied with the current rules, why not write to the creators with your thoughts? Or, something that will probably get more results; write up rules that you think are fair and try to get them used, either rules to improve the Clans or to work out better BV calculations. Because honestly, and I know I probably don't come off as any better, but right now you sound more like a someone who's sore because people aren't willing to play with his forces because it's not fun, crying foul about how it IS fair and how THEY are the ones with the advantage.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)20:06 No.13975474
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    My buddies have been thing of having a game of Battletech but we don't want it to be a huge clusterfuck like the last one. 1500 BV apparently was just too much.

    What are some good score for games that don't take 4 hours a turn.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)20:08 No.13975504
    >1500 BV
    >Too much
    >Enough for a single Heavy mech each
    >Too much
    >Or like, 3 Saladins or something

    Well, any game is going to take you a while to do turns at first as you learn the rules. Make rule card with important figures that you tend to go to a lot, to save you time from looking them up.

    Or use Megamek.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)20:09 No.13975516
    So the system is actually balanced. Good work people, now how about using c-bills as the balance rather than BV2?
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)20:11 No.13975532
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    >No shit. Welcome to the expensive, high-quality low-numbers army/faction.

    You still don't get it? The problem isn't that the units are expensive, the problem is that they are *too* expensive. There is a difference, and I'm astounded that you are unable to see it.

    >You put a long-range specialist in against three clearly close-range specialist mechs

    The Timber Wolf A has 3 MPL's and a Streak 6, it is HARDLY what I would call a "Long Range Specialist". Even the IS mechs have primarily medium range loadouts.

    >Can the enemy use vehicle fodder? Yeah. You're Clan, you use BATTLE ARMOR. There's your fodder.

    Clan Battle Armor are anything *but* fodder. A 4/5 Elemental is ~450BV, over 600BV if it's 3/4. As I said previously, the IS can field entire MECHS at that same price. Nevermind that the highly mobile nature of Clan armies makes BA very difficult to use effectively - especially against fast IS units on top of things. It's like you don't even know how these units work. It is not nearly as simple as just "lol use battlearmor for filler and numbers". BA are highly situational, slow and very short range units.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)20:11 No.13975539
    2 mechs per side. Restrict it to medium or lighter. Drop down to 1300bv or lower if needed. The more you play the faster you will be able to move through each turn. You're still learning how to play, which means you'll play slower.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)20:12 No.13975543
    depends on what you are using.

    A low bv game with light, fast mechs often ends up as an annoying grind, yet a 10k brawl with loads of heavies/assaults can be over in less time due to the firepower being laid out.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)20:13 No.13975557
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    It appears I left-out a 0.

    15000 BV, 'twas ridiculous.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)20:13 No.13975562
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    >And if it's one against three and you win initiative then you're still going to go after all the three enemy mechs.

    And there are still plenty of tricks that can be done to negate the advantage, particularly when the IS player starts tossing some cheap vees into the mix.

    Your entire argument so far has basically been "shut up there is no problem".

    I can't count how many hundreds of games I've played, I've seen what works and what doesn't, and what doesn't work are Clan vs Inner Sphere games. There *is* a problem, but too many people want to turn it into "oh well you're a clan player so tough shit". The fact that the Mekwars Legends server even had to introduce an edge re-roll for the Clan players to help balance things out is in itself very telling.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)20:18 No.13975602
    You didn't say cheap vehicles. You laid down 3 specific mechs. And my example was against three mechs. And yes, apparently I misread, I thought you were using a Timber Wolf Prime. And yes, I DON'T know how to do this. I believe I've mentioned at least once that I'm a novice at Battletech.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)20:20 No.13975635
    Use second line mechs you twit, of course you're neglecting to mention the superior gunnery and piloting skills of clan pilots. Converting a bth 10 to a bth 9 is a big deal.

    Just search through the glut of IIC mechs for some non-omni units that will improve your numbers.

    Oh, and dying to criticals is part of battletech, the only way around it is to reduce the total damage your mech takes, nobody sponges off all of their armor before dying unless its that one in a ten thousandth event where it actually happens.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)20:23 No.13975655
    Ahhh. That makes much more sense. Yeah, try 1500-300, depending on how big a battle you want. You can do 15,000 battles, but that's probably best to leave until everyone playing knows the system better.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)20:25 No.13975675
    Maybe you shouldn't be using a timberwolf, and instead should be using 2-3 kit foxes? Faggot.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)20:29 No.13975721
    >The problem isn't that the units are expensive, the problem is that they are *too* expensive

    Then stop bitching about it and write up rules for better BV calculation. You're doing your cause no good by wasting time arguing on 4chan.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)20:32 No.13975762
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    Pray tell, what secondline heavy do you think I should use instead?

    A Thresher? 3100 BV. Maybe a Predator and Locust IIC? 3939. Secondline units are not magically cheaper than Omnis, I don't know why all of you can't seem to grasp this fact.

    >nobody sponges off all of their armor before dying unless its that one in a ten thousandth event where it actually happens.

    That *completely* misses the point of the problem. It's like you're intentionally ignoring it. It's not about Clan mechs taking a through armor critical, it's about Clan mechs taking a through armor critical that cripples them on the opening round of a game. The Edge re-roll that the mekwars legends server used successfully fixed this. You got one reroll, it was used on your first TAC or headshot, and then it was gone. More to the point - it's a RE ROLL. You can get another TAC or headshot on the reroll anyways. All it did was make it far less likely for a Clan mech to get its face clobbered in the first two rounds of the match.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)20:43 No.13975902
    >losing mech first round from fucking lucky shot
    It happens, but most of the time it doesn't. I guess you feel jipped to lose on the first firing phase, but it has happened to everyone.

    And most of the time you don't lose in the first three rounds, so all you're doing is whining.

    I bet you savescum in dwarf fortress.
    >> Crix !!nLvSV/0cRma 02/20/11(Sun)20:47 No.13975953
    >I bet you savescum in dwarf fortress.

    Only a retard wouldn't.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)20:51 No.13976002
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    You *STILL* don't get it?

    Jesus how much do I have to lay it out for you?

    When a Clanner has a mech get headcapped in the first round, that's anywhere from 20 to 30% of his force gone. Instantly.

    When an IS player has a mech headcapped in the first round, it's 10-15%.

    An immediate 20-30% disadvantage when the game starts, against an equally skilled opponent, is unrecoverable. You don't come back from that. But 10-15%? That's tolerable, especially for an IS player when he has so many units. Sacrificing a mech as IS is actually a legitimate and viable tactic, something that a Clanner simply cannot do - losing said mech at the start doesn't hurt the IS player nearly as much as it does the Clanner.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)20:57 No.13976087
    Mind you, that 1 v 3 Clan vs. IS example didn't take FSM into the deal. It actually helps act the other way in pushing the balance back towards center. So if your opponent packs a bunch of cheap vees, majorly outnumbering the Clan force? You just gave the other guy a nice BV discount.

    Incidentally, it's actually rather nice to do things in traditional Clan manner this way- since inevitably a Clan force ends up outnumbered by IS, you let the Clan player be able to figure out an even match on BV + FSM without any worries.

    Far as BV being imbalanced towards speed, it's real simple. At the top end, you have potential 11-12+ to hit odds with some gimpy pulse pain-in-the-ass that hops back and forth between woods for turn after turn, then complaining that you won't come in and just be hit.

    For such beasts were precision AC ammo and mine-clearance missiles made (or the can't-miss pulse-TC-Clan gunner stuff), but that can make things awful boring fast.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)20:57 No.13976089
    That's the risk you take with a quality over quantity force. Get over it. Yeah, it's not fair. You know what else isn't fair? Us having to sit and listen to you whine and give us your pedantic bullshit about us "not getting it". Yeah, we get it. You think Clan units are overpriced. Now, do as a couple of people have suggested and shut up and do something to fix it instead of complaining impotently over the internet.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)20:58 No.13976094
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    Christ no, I wouldn't use kitfoxes against that army unless I want to be sodomized.

    Predator/Locust IIC is doable, So is a Stormcrow Prime and Phantom E.

    But that doesn't change the point I was making with that post - that engaging the IS in a brawling fight is a death sentence.

    Even if you take a Clan mech specifically designed for close range fighting. A Mad Dog B, A or D, or maybe an Ebon Jaguar H, for example - you're still going to have a lot of trouble. Against those three IS mechs at short range. *especially* when you lose initiative.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)21:05 No.13976170
    Sure the person who loses one of his eight mechs will hurt less than the one who lost one of his five, but the person who went down to 7/8 the first round is still going to have difficulty recovering and will probably lose.

    Yes going down to 4/5 is hurting you a lot more, but that's because you have less units. BIG FUCKING DEAL.

    Really the only difference is because of granularity, clans tend to do best when the total BV limit is higher so it can be 10v16 rather than 2v4.

    Cheap Clan units:
    Kit Fox
    Artic Cheetah
    Fire Moth
    Locust IIC
    Jenner IIC
    Mist Lynx
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)21:06 No.13976179

    You are all idiots who didn't understand jack shit about my post.

    First I'm not for or against the clans, or the Inner Sphere, bitching moaning and taking sides doesn't do jack shit.

    The premise is that the Inner Sphere is much more dangerous than the Clan at close range.

    This is untrue. The Clans have more and better firepower at closer ranges than the IS does. The reason it seems like the IS does so much better at close range is because they can actually shoot back then, as opposed to longe range where the number of effective weapons they have is between slim and none.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)21:06 No.13976183
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    >11-12+ to hit odds with some gimpy pulse pain-in-the-ass that hops back and forth between woods for turn after turn,

    One of my favourite rules from the Mekwars Legends server helped take care of this, at least partially - by requiring a PSR for jumping into heavy woods.

    Fail the PSR, and your mech falls over in the trees.

    One of the first games I'd ever played on the 3025 server involved a guy setting stuff on fire and jumping his mechs [A spider? Can't recall] between the smoke hexes and trees, plinking away at me on 11's and 12's, it's a tactic I've really disliked ever since.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)21:08 No.13976198
    I read your post earlier, it was correct.

    Give an IS player bth 6 and a clan player bth 4 and both will hit most of their weapons. Give the clan player bth 8 and the IS player bth 10, and the clan player will dominate, because few IS weapons will be landing.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)21:14 No.13976243
    >disparaging kit foxes
    You are a whiner and a moron. I bet you think the RTX1-O Raptor is a shit mech because it has thin armor, XL engine and only 6/9.

    Keep on lemming your timberwolf into an Atlas because you don't know nothing about battletech.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)21:14 No.13976245
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    >Yeah, we get it. You think Clan units are overpriced. Now, do as a couple of people have suggested and shut up and do something to fix it instead of complaining impotently over the internet.


    [spoiler]Why isn't there a communist faction in BattleTech?[/spoiler]
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)21:14 No.13976247
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    Very very rarely does a clan player field 5 units unless its a 15k+ game.

    3-4 units at 12k is far more the norm, although you need to drag half of the IS players on the mekwars servers kicking and screaming into those fights. Very few like moving out of the 8k comfort zone.

    Anyhow, most IS fighting goes on at 8k, which is 2-3 Clan mechs. This is where most of the IS players want to fight the Clans, and it's where losing one mech at the start really has the greatest impact.

    You're right that when there's 12 Clan mechs on the table and 30 IS, that things balance out a little bit better, but those games are one in a thousand.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)21:17 No.13976266

    Actually IIRC, the clans are kinda sorta socialist. I may just be talking out of my ass here.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)21:18 No.13976270
    All this whining is why I don't play on mekwars servers anymore.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)21:18 No.13976271
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    >Why no communists?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)21:19 No.13976277
    Any society with a constitutionally derived CASTE SYSTEM can not be considered socialist.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)21:20 No.13976292
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    Look, I'm sorry if you really like Kit Foxes or something, but they really aren't that fantastic in this situation. I'd rather have Adders or Locust IIC's.

    Even the cheesiest of the Kit Foxes - the W, with two LPL's, really isn't a good unit to take against three mentioned IS mechs. You get two kitfoxes, they hit pretty good, but don't really deal much damage overall. They're also only slightly faster than the IS mechs, and the same speed as the Grand Dragon [which has a snub PPC to boot]

    The very light armor, combined with the lack of speed... Quite frankly there are far better mechs to take in their place.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)21:22 No.13976306
    I thought the Capellans were pretty much like this. Aren't they are highly propaganda-centered, government controlled police state?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)21:22 No.13976310
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)21:24 No.13976318

    This comparison is pretty shitty.

    First the damage is off. Yes, you have more fire power, but only when you're right on top of the Mad Cat. Long range the Cat is putting out 30 damage.

    The Grand Dragon is putting out 5, 10 at 13-15 hexs, the quickdraw is putting out literally jackshit damage past 9 hexes, and the Champion is putting out and average of 6 damage out to 18 hexes, otherwise it's all less than 9 hexes.

    Basically your combined firepower past 9 hexes is 16 damage on average. The Cat will strip off twice the armor that IS mechs will until they're at 9 hexes or less. The Cat will also take off a leg of any of those 3 mechs with 2 PPC hits.

    If it was a prime cat, it'd be dumping out alternating volleys of 60 and 40 damage, and would probably stripe down the Champion and the Quickdraw before they got to do anything.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)21:25 No.13976333
    My god the BAAAWWWING clan fag reminds me too much of a guy at my FLGS. I'm betting he doesn't even make an attempt at Zel is much like the That Guy at my FLGS would get pissy when my Marik force starts taking Wraiths en masse and giving him a taste of his own medicine.

    Stop spamming the same points over and over again and plugging your ears to any rebuttals. Make some rules to rework BV 2.0, play higher point games so the forces come closer to parity in numbers, fucking use the construction rules to build some mechs to fit this supposed hole in the Clan ranks.

    Really you don't need to. You know why? Most of the larger clans have scads of old IS tech they took with them on the Exodus still in their toumans. It might never get used but it's there. So cram some freebirths in those things and voile, you've got those cheap vehicles you claim you lack.

    Doesn't seem too Clanny? Too bad, it's as easy a solution as you're going to get since you don't seem willing to get off your ass and do anything else.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)21:26 No.13976345
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    I didn't exactly want to get into the arguments above - but shit, I laid out some of the problems in the BV system and how to fix them, and then got told that I was completely wrong and everything was fine.

    And then I explain in more detail, and now apparently I'm whining and not taking proactive action to fix the rules myself.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)21:28 No.13976364
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    The comparison was *specifically* to show that at close range the Timberwolf doesn't stand a chance against those units.

    I even acknowledge directly in that post that the Clan player would need to engage at range in order to win.

    The whole point was to show that Clan forces do not actually have more damage output, more speed, and more armor than IS forces like so many IS players like to think.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)21:34 No.13976402
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    >I'm betting he doesn't even make an attempt at Zel

    Nobody uses zell in a competitive context anymore. Here's how it goes: Clan player abides by zell, IS player breaks Zell as soon as it's advantageous and wins the game. Well shit, no wonder nobody plays by Zell rules anymore - even if the fluff most of the Clans have written it off almost completely by the late 3050's.

    >That Guy at my FLGS would get pissy when my Marik force starts taking Wraiths en masse

    Jesus christ dude, that's a pretty dick thing for you to do. That's like "yeah, I'm not playing with you anymore" level. It's no wonder he was bitching at you for it.

    The rest of your post isn't even worth bothering with, half is just nonsense, and the other is just personal attacks.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)21:36 No.13976417
    Realistically the Timberwolf could reliably kill the champion and cripple the grand dragon. The quickdraw isn't likely to die due to having a fusion engine with very little ammunition.

    Now this assumes the Timberwolf is smart enough not to get kicked three times every round.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)21:38 No.13976436
    >Wraiths en masse

    Really not so much a dick move as just plain unproductive. Sounds like they both end up using fast mechs and are looking at 11's and 12's to hit. That game would never end.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)21:38 No.13976442
    >>13959066 Here, It turns out that the Flying Fortress Mk. I was a bit of a illegal unit type, mostly due to me fucking up and selecting spheroid on my spreadsheet instead of aerodyne. When I noticed that when tinkering with the sheet a bit, it turned out to have -1796 tons of cargo space. So without further ado, here's the Flying Fortress Mk. II stats. For those of you who showed up late, this was a attempt to design a Ace Combat style super weapon for Battletech, possibly for a AC inspired RPG/Table Top campaign.

    Type: Aerodyne Dropship
    Tech Base: Mixed
    Weight: 32,500 tons
    Length: 461 meters (Long enough to fly down the access shaft to shoot the exposed Fusion Reactor)
    Width: 520 meters
    Height: 92 meters
    Safe/Max Thrust: 3/5 (Clan Engine Tech)
    Fuel: 1000 Tons (543.5 days at 1g, 217.4 at max thrust)
    SI: 50
    Armor: 225 tons of Lamellor Ferro Carbide, Clan Tech (98/97/97 Capital Scale)
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)21:39 No.13976453
    I-It's beautiful....
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)21:41 No.13976462
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    >If it was a prime cat, it'd be dumping out alternating volleys of 60 and 40 damage, and would probably stripe down the Champion and the Quickdraw before they got to do anything.

    That's really doubtful. The average to-hit roll for the Clan player's going to be a 7 or higher while the units close in, and the LRM racks only have enough ammo for 6 rounds of fire. Plus the LRM's don't always hit for max damage - average is 12. If you're rolling on 7's, you'll average something like 80 points of damage from the LRM's over the whole game - and that'll be spread out over the mechs, not concentrated into one point like an ERLL.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)21:44 No.13976487
    Its 30m per battletech hex right? (6m per z level?)

    16 hexes long
    18 hex wingspan
    4 hexes thick (15 z levels)
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)21:44 No.13976491
    Thank you.

    Armament remains mostly the same.

    8x SCL/2
    20x ERPPC (Probably mounted in the nose or something, its really up to whoever wants to run a game with this monster.)
    12x Gauss Rifles with 3 tons of ammo each
    18x ERLL
    18x ERML
    18x LPL
    36x MPL
    6x LBX-10 AC with 3 tons of cluster rounds each
    12x AMS with 3 tons of ammo each
    12x LRM-20 with Art-IV, 4 tons of ammo each
    6x Streak SRM-6, 2 tons of ammo each

    Armament is kept cool by 461 Double Heat Sinks
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)21:47 No.13976509
    >Weight: 32,500 tons
    >Length: 461 meters (Long enough to fly down the access shaft to shoot the exposed Fusion Reactor)
    >Width: 520 meters
    >Height: 92 meters
    Essentially about as big as an WWII aircraft carrier.

    That flies. On a giant plume of thermonuclear explosions.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)21:50 No.13976540
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    Yes, that sounds about right.

    Played smart, the Clan player can still win it - I'm definitely not saying he can't, but my issue with the whole thing - you *need* to play smart, usually very smart, and the IS players don't. For them it's mostly a matter of just zerg rushing or standing still and firing a billion gauss rifles when fighting Clans.

    Maybe it's better that way - I mean, for the Clan players to really have to have an in-depth understanding of all the rules and quirks of the system to be effective. But even so, I think rules like the edge re-roll or a +1 initiative bonus are things that really even out the playing field a lot better in general.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)21:51 No.13976555
    >I laid out some of the problems in the BV system and how to fix them, and then got told that I was completely wrong and everything was fine.

    No you weren't. You were told to stop whining and do something constructive. You've refused to do so, and you've lost whatever credibility you might have had with your initial posts. So again. Stop bitching. Do something about it.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)21:53 No.13976576
    One of the prime design considerations was "Must be able to have a hotshot ASF pilot with a numerical based callsign fly down the length of the interior somehow." I also realize that this hideous monster is the size of some warships.
    Misc stuff up next.

    Has carrying capacity for 72 ASF, 8 Small craft, mounted in two bays of 36 ASF, 4 SC with 6 bay doors. 60 Techs and 45 Astechs provide maintaince for the airwing (maybe, I have no idea how many you'd need.)

    It has an onboard HPG, allowing it to communicate off world.

    36 Marines in Battlearmor provide defense against boarding actions.

    The crew consists of 17 officers, and 271 enlisted. Officers are two to a room, while the crew bunks 6 to a room.

    The ship has 84 escape pods in the likely event that some hot shot enemy ace manages to shoot it down. Or if the enemy just goes "Fuck this, have the warships blow it out of the sky from orbit."

    It has a cargo bay that holds 1245 tons of cargo. I may reduce this further for the Mark 3 in order to buff the anti fighter armament.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)21:54 No.13976584
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    And because I know it'll draw flak, I'll pre-emptively answer.

    >you *need* to play smart, usually very smart, and the IS players don't.

    I'm not saying there aren't tactics to be used as an IS player against Clans, just that the most basic tactics STILL WORK. Even against a skilled opponent who's prepared for it, they STILL WORK.

    You try standing still with all of your units and just firing gauss rifles in an IS vs IS game and see how that works out for you.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)21:59 No.13976630
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    Look, I'm just making rebuttals against the points you were trying to make - and when you conceded that okay, maybe I'm right >>13976089 in this post, you then switched over to a tirade about how I'm whining and doing nothing constructive.

    At this point all the rest of your comments have basically amounted to "shutup and stop whining".

    So how about we both just agree to stop arguing and talk about battletech instead?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)22:01 No.13976642

    Ohh yes and at full thrust it has enough fuel for 16,000 turns of operation, at minimum thrust, for 80,000 turns.

    I would of put in some Sub Capital Missile launchers but I didn't think of it in time. Plus lasers are cooler.

    If anyone is actually able to convince their gaming group to allow them to run a game using this, I would be most grateful.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)22:10 No.13976735
    Shut up and stop whining. For like, the fifth time.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)22:11 No.13976739

    Mind you, as noted you do tend to have to deal with more units as a Clanner- meaning that your firepower does spread around more targets, if your opponent has brains enough to make it happen.

    The Clanner has the opposite problem. All that firepower in one place, less protection and higher vulnerability to critical hits. I've always found Clan units with a modest amount of mobility best- if you can take down IS targets one at a time, you'll usually hold together in the process. Bonus if you can combine firepower with another Clan unit or two- overwhelming an opponent in one or two salvos is about the best option I know for keeping your own intact.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)22:13 No.13976764
    >The comparison was *specifically* to show that at close range the Timberwolf doesn't stand a chance against those units.

    Yes, when you stack everything against it, you're right. The problem is that you don't get to start at 9 or less hexes to a machine.

    Or we could instead compare a Nova Cat E in this situation where it puts out just over 84 damage on average with no heat, or 94 every other round. Said Nova Cat is also on 3024 BV, and averages more damage than the IS mechs do, in addition to massively better long range fire power.

    >The whole point was to show that Clan forces do not actually have more damage output, more speed, and more armor than IS forces like so many IS players like to think.

    They have more damage output. You're using a very, very contrived set of circumstances to prove otherwise. Your IS mechs are not faster than the TImberwolf except for the quickdraw which can jump, else they're all 5/8. Armor wise you have an advantage, but in actual games the time you spend closing the distance and taking damage negates it.

    >The average to-hit roll for the Clan player's going to be a 7 or higher while the units close in, and the LRM racks only have enough ammo for 6 rounds of fire.

    It takes you an average of 4 rounds to close with either Cat before you can even fire at it with the Quickdraw, or fire effectively with the Grand Dragon or Champion, and that's in the best of circumstances. All it takes is a double tap on a leg with the ER-PPC or some lucky shots and you've lost 1/3 of your firepower as IS before you could even do anything, which is discounting that the Cat A has 4 rounds to drop a head cap before you get to do more than scuff it's armor.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)22:17 No.13976798
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    Yes, definitely. Generally speaking a Clan vs IS force shouldn't have anything slower than a 5/8.

    Slower than a 5/8 and you get surrounded, kicked/punched to death,etc. Personally, I find that 6/9 is the sweet spot on the movement curve. Fast enough to maneuver, but not so fast that you have no guns.

    Stormcrow's probably my favourite 6/9 clan mech.

    As far as Clan tactics go, I think one of the most important ones, is learning to use LOS. It's basically a slightly more advanced version of concentrating your fire on one mech - choose a target that has moved, then do your best to limit LOS to every other target.

    Done perfectly, you get your 3-4 Clan mechs firing at 1 IS mech, and 1 IS mech firing at 3-4 Clan mechs.

    It's not just reducing your chances of taking a lucky gauss hit to the head, it's completely removing it.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)22:19 No.13976813
    But you don't understand! *insert pedantic reply about how the Clan units are totally the real disadvantaged side, and how the chance of getting a head cap is totally unfair cause it makes it so you lose more firepower, disregarding that that's part of the risk of using such a faction, here*

    There namefag with the weird letters, I've answered for you. Now kindly STFU and stop bitching. Write up rules to fix things. You are not doing anything helpful by talking here. Go and actually try to solve the problem instead of whining.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)22:35 No.13976961

    Are you people fucking retarded? I'm doing the exact opposite of claiming it's unfair. Clan vs IS using BV 2 is generally pretty decent of a match up unless you insist on doing stupid shit (like citing 1 flawed example) or you hit on fo the couple bad areas (MASC, C3 notably).

    I could list off dozens of clan team configs that have less then the 3 IS BV, but more firepower, especially at short range, and I could do it with multiple mechs.

    Hell, I could grab 3 Fire Moth H and average 126 damage at short range for only 3225 BV.

    tl:rd One example is held up by an idiot as the gospel truth when it's demonstrably not.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)22:43 No.13977041
    I think you misunderstand. I sought to mock снайпер by summarizing his argument and presenting it in a bad way, and implying that I was doing it to save him the trouble. I agree with you, and disagree with him.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)22:44 No.13977053
    >>(MASC, C3 notably)

    God I don't even look at C3 as anything more than a method to inflate point values anymore. Why? Because in my local meta game everyone except the Clanners has a fucking Savannah Master running around with an ECM fucking things up.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)22:47 No.13977091

    I apologize then. Sorry. :)

    And to not make this a better post; a Clan Heavy Medium Laser has a BV under the 2.0 of 76, an IS Medium Laser has a BV of 46. The IS pays more for the same 10 points of damage in terms of BV, Heat and twice the tonnage.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)22:51 No.13977124
    All is well! Thought, as for Heavy lasers, they do have that +1 to hit mod Still doesn't exactly make it even to the 2 IS mediums, but.... it's better than nothing.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)22:51 No.13977125
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    >tl:rd One example is held up by an idiot as the gospel truth when it's demonstrably not.

    Sorry mate, I'm not holding that example up as gospel truth, and you got into an argument with a troll, anyhow.

    More or less I agree with what you said, but as I admitted right in that original post - the situation was pointedly contrived specifically to show that in a straight up brawl at short range, the Timberwolf doesn't have a chance against those three mechs, and that Clans do not in fact, automagically have more damage/speed/armor than the IS.

    That's all it was, no more.

    I also specifically pointed out that the Clan player would need to engage at range.

    I still use c3, and I've seen it used very effectively by other people, but you do pretty much require dedicated ECCM units for it to be worthwhile when fighting the IS.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)22:56 No.13977185
    >and you got into an argument with a troll, anyhow.
    >Joke's on them, I was only pretending to be retarded!

    You know, it actually makes me feel BETTER that you're a troll. It means that there's not actually someone as stupid as you were pretending to be.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)22:57 No.13977206
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    Heavy lasers are IMO, a step in the right direction. It's tentative, seems almost like perhaps someone at catalyst has recognized that the Clans need some more incentive to actually close the gap and fight a close quarters battle.

    But IMO, it's not enough. Introducing new technologies fundamentally isn't going to fix the problem, especially when there are already so many decent Clan mechs otherwise. You need actual rule changes to push the Clan units into a close-knit battle without the player going "aw hell naw, I'll get destroyed if I do that!".

    That in particular was one of the influences for my idea of a +1 initiative bonus for the Clan side. The benefit at long range is limited, while the benefit at short range is significant. Possibly significant enough to overcome the advantage that the IS holds at close range brawling. [As someone said previously - you're in trouble as a Clanner when you're shooting 4's and he's shooting 6's, because you'll both end up hitting]
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)22:59 No.13977230
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    You are confused. I wasn't calling myself a troll, I was calling >>13977041and >>13976813 a troll.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)23:00 No.13977247
    Try this for Clan Tech. Just whipped it up a few moments ago, I'm sure optimization can take place, but hopefully the general point will be sound.

    Exploiting Heavy Medium Lasers:

    40 ton Mech, bipedal, 6/9/6 movement profile.
    5 HMLs + Targeting computer (Not sure about the TC, as it adds almost 180 points of BV. Are the odds boost worth it?)
    Standard Fusion Engine, to boost durability and reduce cost, for anyone who cares about the C-Bills.

    Endo Steel and Ferro Fib are the concessions to high tech, enabling 6.5 tons of armor for 90.5% coverage as well as 15 double heat sinks, meaning that even when running or jumping and alpha striking, we build up only 11 heat, which is manageable because the next turn you can hopefully jump 6 hexes to cover.

    Jumping is good because you'll need that to get in close for the HMLs, and who knows, maybe a DFA will carry the day where the lasers won't. Also, there's nothing in the arms, and we have hand actuators, so we can get up easily and punch dirty IS barbarians if we must.

    40 tonner was chosen because this armor level gives us 16 points in the RT/LT and 18 in the CT, for fending off probing Gauss Rifles.

    BV with TC is 1533, which is a good IS heavy or a middling assault. Could be taken out with good maneuvering one on one. BV without TC is only 1353, down towards the good medium/average heavy range, which might be better even with the acc penalty of Heavy Lasers.

    Opinions of anon?

    (Expecting over 9000 TL;DRs in the near future, but whatev.)
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)23:03 No.13977284
    What happened to not whining and talking about battletech? Or better yet, stopping your bitching and fucking trying to fix it. I swear, you really must be a troll since instead of actually trying to fix the problem, all you're doing it complaining.

    inb4 "oh, I'm a troll just because I don't agree wiht you"
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)23:04 No.13977295
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    It's pretty good, but then, when you're starting from scratch and building a custom mech, it's actually hard to make it *bad*.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)23:09 No.13977362
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    Also, as an example, here's another mech following the same line of thought, that I had designed awhile ago as a joke.

    Flashman IIC - 2844 BV [3/4 pilot]
    5/8, XL Engine
    216 points of armor
    8 Heavy Medium Lasers
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)23:11 No.13977394

    Carrying this on even more because I'm just like that.

    Take the Quickdraw QKD-C and convert it to a clan machine.

    5/8/5 Movement
    144 standard armor
    4 Heavy MDL
    SRM-4 w/ 25 rounds
    ECM suit
    18 double heat sinks (36 heat dissipation, 36 heat maximum).

    Total BV for the machine of 1,497 and a total cost of only ~200k more.

    Oh noes! It's more expensive in BV! It also has more armor (only 1 point) and averages 36 damage compared to the IS's version's 26.

    If I really wanted to take a dump all over this comparison, I can drop all the Clan Quickdraw's lasers and opt for just SRM 4 racks instead, getting 7 of them with 3 ton of ammo and further dropping the BV of the Clan Quickdraw to only 1,401 and increase it's average damage at 9 hexes or less to 42.

    The clans do automagically have better firepower. It's mathematically provable.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)23:12 No.13977400

    Well, the concerns raised about Clan stuff is that apparently the BV has you screwed no matter what, because it is a blanket effect. So, in an effort not necessarily to disprove that, but at least offer a counterpoint, I tried to create a Mech such that a Clan player could bring high firepower along with high mobility without allowing the IS player to achieve a 3:1 unit ratio on the field.

    HMLs allow the Clanner to, even if outnumbered by 2 700 point light Mechs, score one lucky hit for a probable crippling shot, or duel relatively evenly with an IS Heavy.

    so, TL:DR, if I made a "bad" mech, that would be pointless for the context of this argument, because the Clanners need something "good" and "efficient" to feel that they can match the IS's ultracheap armor soak.

    In fact, I would really like to see improvement made to this design by more experienced neckbeards, aiming for cheap yet effective and maneuverable.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)23:12 No.13977416
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    >Also, there's nothing in the arms, and we have hand actuators, so we can get up easily and punch dirty IS barbarians if we must.

    Good and bad - you can punch stuff, yes. But it also means you don't have flippy arms. Which are extraordinarily useful too.

    Clans also have a 'thing' about physical attacks, and consider them dishonorable for some weird reason. Although, like a lot of their ritualized warfare stuff, those kind of taboo things are dropping away for more pragmatic solutions.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)23:17 No.13977463



    The clans can easily match the IS machines in number for roughly the same BV, armor, maneuverability, survivability and still carry 50% or more firepower.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)23:18 No.13977476
    Also, for those who LOVE to get stuck near, but not quite in, with the boyz, bring the same 40 tonner Clan Mech with 6/9/6 Fusion engine, but drop the HMLs for TEN ER Small Lasers, giving you 30% less range, but arguably more effective range thanks to no acc penalty, sling the TC on for a mere one ton thanks to Clan TC rules, or leave it off to bring BV below 1300, drop 2 DHSes because they're not needed, and you still get 26/26 heat generation/dissipation for perfect heat while jumping, you get 50 potential damage (although, not as concentrated, but much more likely to score hits, perhaps for the critical 20 damage piloting roll forcer), you have full LT and RT critical slots and the arms are entirely expendable, AND you have 99.76 percent maximum armor.

    For 1407 BV. Not too bad. Again, that many lasers can be brought into play with jump jets and 9 max speed for armor bonuses, and they can easily gut light IS mechs, and grind away any slow 1400 point IS medium or heavy that shows its face.

    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)23:22 No.13977515
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    Making a custom mech to prove that you can stuff a bunch of weapons into a Clan mech and then claim that therefore Clan mechs have more firepower is just silly.

    One for one, a clan machine will have more firepower. But Clans don't fight IS one for one, and I can't believe you would overlook something like that.

    Generally speaking the firepower between a Clan and IS force is equal. IS tends to have more raw firepower, but can't hit with it. The real problem is that the IS has more *armor* as well, and can even have, on top of the armor and the firepower, a speed advantage.

    Fundamentally, in a straight shooting match on open ground with equal to-hit numbers, the Clanner loses every time. The key thing that allows the Clanner to win is his speed and range.

    Which are the two areas the IS player should be focusing on in order to win. Being able to throw lots of units at it just helps. But the problem is, when an IS player *does* focus in that area, the Clan player really struggles to succeed. Speed *is* range, effectively at least. This is why the medium swarm armies are so effective against a Clanner. You bring lots of mediocre firepower into close range very quickly, and at the same time limit the maneuvering options of your Clan opponent.

    This is precisely the area, again, where the Clans getting a +1 initiative bonus would help dramatically.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)23:25 No.13977548
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    Yes, and that's a custom machine designed for the express purpose of doing that.

    How about picking some canonical Clan mechs, and putting them up against a decent IS medium rush army with vehicle support?
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)23:29 No.13977610
    >But Clans don't fight IS one for one

    What are you talking about, of course they do! To gang up would be dishonorable! Surely the Inner Sphere dogs know this and will obey the laws of stupid. I mean, honor!
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)23:30 No.13977615
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    Honestly, at that point you may as well just go "Hey guys, how about a mech with 6 MPL's lasers and a tcomp?" or "Hey guys how about a mech with 8 streak 6 launchers?"

    The construction rules are not balanced. You can make some incredibly efficient designs using them, but nobody will want to play against them. There's a reason why everybody fights using canonical units.

    The most difficult part of designing a new mech isn't about making it good, it's about making it bad, giving it some kind of down side, etc.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)23:31 No.13977628

    I think the point that some of the Clanners in this thread were trying to make is that there aren't any, or at least that the pickings are slim, when choosing canon Clan mechs to go up against such a diversified force, with advantages in total armor, total battlefield control, initiative soak, and with the vehicles, a GREAT deal of heavy firepower potential for little cost (Vedettes, Manticores, Po's, etc, really anything with a PPC or an AC 10 acting as a gun platform with decent mobility.)

    Hence the customs.

    No one is trying to prove that the Clans can cram more firepower into a given mech than the IS can. Of course they can, that's what they do! The objective is to prove that the Clans can make a machine that can reduce the relative disadvantage in mass soaking that the IS can bring to bear, and prevent one Clan heavy having to fight an entire lance of lights, mediums, or heavies. That's all.
    >> The Pole 02/20/11(Sun)23:33 No.13977661
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    everyone is babbies in this thread...

    that being said, who knew the Wyvern, WVE-10N was such a trooper, I lost my right torso and arm, suffered a through armor critical to my center torso for another engine hit, and got hit in the head , all the while staying standing and fired ER PPC and med pulses alternating every round resisitng shutdown for a collective 10 rounds
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)23:35 No.13977683

    God damn are you stupid.

    I mean rock hard, black hole stupid. I just proved that:

    >The real problem is that the IS has more *armor* as well, and can even have, on top of the armor and the firepower, a speed advantage.

    Is bullshit. Fuck I I've proved it several times with different standard clan machine configs. Even under your retarded start at 9 hexes most armor and fire power wins, I proved it.

    >Fundamentally, in a straight shooting match on open ground with equal to-hit numbers, the Clanner loses every time. The key thing that allows the Clanner to win is his speed and range.

    What the FUCK are you smoking?
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)23:36 No.13977706
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    Yes, but at the same time, if the problem needs to be fixed by diversifying the Clan toumans and introducing new technology, then we're not going to see well balanced clan forces until 20 years from now when the new 3340 TRO comes out in Dec of 2030.

    Hence why people are using stopgap measures like edge rerolls right now.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)23:40 No.13977749
    He's at the point where he's pretty much blindly convinced that he's right. There's no reasoning with some people. I do wish he'd shut up and let the thread get back on track though. Speaking of which....

    Battletech vehicles. If you were to make them less bad, removing the artificial nerfing they get to keep Mechs at the top, how would you do it? Would there be rule changes to show differences between mech and tank abilities? Reveal to me your thoughts, /tg/!
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)23:40 No.13977751

    Yup, Like the Glass Spider 2, Rifleman IIc, Helstar, Turkan D and E, Most of the Nova Cats, Ice Ferrets....

    Oh wait.. they DO make those machines.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)23:41 No.13977762

    It's also worth looking at the improved heavy lasers- they're mildly explosive, but they still pack the more concentrated punch.

    Although personally, I think the standard heavy laser is a very limited beast at best. Nothing beats a HLL for sheer energy damage to a single location and it's pretty damn lightweight to boot, but the Clan ER PPC is so close on damage (with better accuracy/range) that you don't mount HL's unless you want to save some BV. +1 to hit with the average Clan gunnery being effectively a -1 tends to make that a wash anyway.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)23:43 No.13977785

    So then, what's the solution? Don't play Clans? Get raped when your half max armor Vulture gets ruined by a lance of Vedettes that backed you in the corner while a lance of Light Mechs moved in on your Puma buddy?

    Cry as you always lose initiative, despite having fast mechs? And supposedly commanders and pilots trained in tactics since birth? Get angry as IS players offer nothing but scorn when you debate tactics and builds? That's not helpful to anything.

    It's not helpful to simply say that the Clans will never get balanced units. OR to say that Clan players are just whiners because they try to come up with new ideas. Come up with a solution. Or, start playing Clans, old 3025 neckbeard! Come up with the canon army that you demand be proven to exist on your own!

    Failing that, then acknowledge that there is a fundamental discrepancy in the rules! Either way, prove your hypothesis with experiment, not dismissal. Learn to adult.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)23:44 No.13977792
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    Likewise, I've found that the smaller the heavy laser, the more worthwhile it is to use.

    Heavy Large Lasers are nice in their holepunching for their price, but as you said, you're usually better off with an ERPPC.

    Heavy small lasers on the other hand. I love those things. They're like a more balanced ER small laser.

    They're also one of the reasons why the Firemoth H is among my favourite mechs.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)23:45 No.13977801
    You just need to play your tanks smart. They cost a lot less that a mech of equal firepower and armor.

    Just don't show your sides to something with a LBX or SRM's. Getting shot in the back or sides = stuck tank. Getting shot in the front isn't so bad.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)23:47 No.13977826

    Yeah, I'm done with him, I think anyone who actually reads anything besides what he's posted can see how full or crap he is by now.

    >Battletech vehicles. If you were to make them less bad, removing the artificial nerfing they get to keep Mechs at the top, how would you do it? Would there be rule changes to show differences between mech and tank abilities? Reveal to me your thoughts, /tg/!

    Vehicles right now are better than mechs unless your opponent is specifically ready for them.

    As a side example I actually recently wiped out a clan force 4 times my BV simply by using Field Gunners with Light and normal Gauss rifles.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)23:49 No.13977851
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    That's what I have been doing. I've even offered up a couple solutions for tackling the specific areas that I think the clans are hurting in AND pointed out some custom rules other people have used to offset the problems Clan forces face.

    Personally, I'd love to just drop Clan BV across the board on BV2 by about 8% and playtest it.
    >> Salamanders Fanbro !!C+aj9Hmz1qe 02/20/11(Sun)23:52 No.13977890
    Why do all battletech tanks look so retarded?

    Seriously, it's like they tried as hard as possible to make them look like garbage.
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)23:54 No.13977915
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    You can only do tracked vehicle with a turret before you start getting silly to make things looks different
    >> Anonymous 02/20/11(Sun)23:55 No.13977931
    True, true. But then, you also have to wonder why tanks are so prone to motive damage. Treads are fragile, you might say. And the delicate innards and workings of a mech aren't? I mean, I suppose, what would you change to make tanks effective, pound for pound, against mechs? For instance, tanks can die from a single lucky TAC melting the crew. This can happen from a small laser, so it's certainly not the equivalent of a head-shot against a mech. And what is with the Crew Stunned thing? So, a good hit will send the entire crew of the tank into a stupor, but somehow mech pilots who are certainly getting shaken up every turn don't EVER have that problem? Not to mention, tanks have much less surface area than mechs, meaning that you can fit more armor on the smaller area for the same tonnage. This is somewhat addressed by tanks having only 4 facings, until you realize that that's half of what a mech has, and that mechs can survive the destruction of all but their head and torso, while a tank goes boom after a single facing loses all internal structure. What addresses that fact that a tan, with lower center of gravity and dispersion of weight, could easily carry more tonnage than a mech?

    I... I'm actually completely lost my train of thought. Here, have my half asleep ramblings.
    >> снайпер 02/20/11(Sun)23:58 No.13977961
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    There's like, a million and one tanks in the setting.

    There's only so many different ways to draw tanks before they all sort of just blend in together.

    Giving them a unique and ugly profile gives them some personality.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)00:00 No.13977997

    You just use the optional rules for critical hits for vehicles that reduce fragility, page 107 in TacOps. Voila, you now have tough-ass tanks. Quite simply, no more crit result on an 8 from the side, no potential motive damage on a 9 for front/rear/side hits.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)00:02 No.13978028
    All those happen a hell of a lot more when you get hit from the side instead of the front.

    TAC's can happen to a mech too and a single small laser can kill the whole thing.

    Mech pilots can get KO'd from headshots or falling. Also tanks can't fall down.

    Tanks do have weaknesses that mechs don't have.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)00:03 No.13978038
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    Like the Athena. Sexy tank.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)00:05 No.13978061

    Keep in mind that mechs are basically armor over giant metal muscles.

    As for motive damage, that's a bigger reason for the loss of tanks than actually damaging the tank or crew itself a lot of the time in the real world.

    In Battletech it's more a conscious design decision to help prevent vehicles from overshadowing mechs, which they often do already.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)00:09 No.13978118
    >In Battletech it's more a conscious design decision to help prevent vehicles from overshadowing mechs

    That's what I meant. How would you change things if there was no longer desire to make mechs supreme?
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)00:10 No.13978135
    We did a city fight today were 3 players brought tanks and of the them had 3 UAC20's

    1 unit had 3 Ultra Autocannon 20's.

    That tank was the second to last thing to die and killed the most units.

    The last mech surviving only won because it hid under water while all the tanks killed each other.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)00:12 No.13978151
    Remove motive criticals. Now tanks are OP.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)00:19 No.13978235

    >True, true. But then, you also have to wonder why tanks are so prone to motive damage. Treads are fragile, you might say. And the delicate innards and workings of a mech aren't?

    Heck, most vehicles have broad chunks of their lower sections that by nature tend to suffer badly from hits and are required to be the most poorly armored portion of the machine. Hover vehicles have their air skirts and fans, wheeled vehicles their tires (even solid ones), tracked vehicles their treads.

    'Mechs can certainly get their innards shot up too, if you're using floating critical hits (one of my personal favorite "optional" rules vs making a 2 an automatic torso crit). They're just using a motive system that may be less efficient but better protected and more adaptive to varied terrain.

    >I mean, I suppose, what would you change to make tanks effective, pound for pound, against mechs? For instance, tanks can die from a single lucky TAC melting the crew. This can happen from a small laser, so it's certainly not the equivalent of a head-shot against a mech.

    Actually, with floating crits that's exactly what it can be. 2 for crit, 12 for location, one crit to the cockpit, and you've just golden BB'd a Battlemech.

    >And what is with the Crew Stunned thing? So, a good hit will send the entire crew of the tank into a stupor, but somehow mech pilots who are certainly getting shaken up every turn don't EVER have that problem?

    They sure do. The 'Mech is more spread out, meaning it takes a hit to the head- or damage from a fall rattling the pilot into being stunned -but a 'Mech pilot can be knocked out for multiple turns or in some cases even killed outright without even breaching the head armor. LBX pellets, I'm looking at you...
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)00:20 No.13978250
    >Remove motive criticals. Now tanks are OP.

    This is pretty much right. At that point you have better armor and more firepower on vehicles than you do mechs. Finding any use for mechs becomes extremely difficult.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)00:24 No.13978316

    >Not to mention, tanks have much less surface area than mechs, meaning that you can fit more armor on the smaller area for the same tonnage. This is somewhat addressed by tanks having only 4 facings, until you realize that that's half of what a mech has, and that mechs can survive the destruction of all but their head and torso, while a tank goes boom after a single facing loses all internal structure.

    Yep. That more concentrated "body" also means that when you chew through the outside, it's a very quick step to slagging what's inside. In that sense, a 'Mech can often survive punishment a tank can't- it remains mobile longer and easier, and a true "kill" is less likely vs simply taking severe damage and getting off the field to fight again after repairs.

    >What addresses that fact that a tan, with lower center of gravity and dispersion of weight, could easily carry more tonnage than a mech?

    And therein you have the rules for support vehicles, including and up to mobile structures. So in other words, there already ARE superheavy vehicles out there, the most extreme examples being beasts like the Rattler II which are mobile fortresses on treads.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)00:26 No.13978342
    That tank is also not canon. Units with UK in their designation are fan creations.

    Not saying that doesn't invalidate that tanks are good, just saying.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)00:32 No.13978430
    It was still a fucking beast. There are also tanks with 3 gauss rifles, 2 heavy gauss rifles, or 2 Arrow IV launchers.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)00:35 No.13978457
    As it should be. Mechs would be relegated to highly mobile roles(jump jets) or shooting from cover(tanks cant go hulldown in battletech for some reason, while mechs can...)
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)00:35 No.13978461

    Remember the >>13978135 example, and how one 'Mech survived it all?

    It's the superior mobility the 'Mech has that matters here- or in cases where mobility is inferior, durability is superior.

    VTOLs outmanuever a 'Mech over terrain, but crumble under flak- often in a single burst from an autocannon. Hover vehicles are faster than 'Mechs, but also tend to get their skirts holed faster than a magical girl in a tentacle monster convention. Wheeled vehicles fail in anything but the least rough terrain, and even tracked vehicles get into trouble in watery or wooded areas.

    Meanwhile, the 'Mech plods under, over, and through any of it. Including the whole being mostly fireproof thing. Or being more resistant to even vacuum or other hostile/toxic environments most tanks need special sealing (and gawd help them if the armor breaches anyway) to survive. They can deliver a solid payload of firepower pretty much anywhere on a planet you need, and be more likely to come home afterwards than nearly anything else.

    But they're very, very, very useful. And cheaper. And can do some jobs better some of the time, but not everything decently or well all of the time. And it's why tanks have a place and the world will never be ALL GIANT ROBOTS ALL THE TIME.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)00:37 No.13978488

    Mechforce UK specifically, it's sort of a grey area on how cannon they are. They also tend to be a lot more optimized than most cannon designs and it shows.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)00:39 No.13978508
    Tanks can go hulldown. When they do any fire that hits the font arc does no damage unless it hits the turret.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)00:41 No.13978535

    The answer is that Mechforce UK stuff isn't canon, period. They're all fan-creations, though MFUK (boy, what an unfortunate abbreviation) was a big bunch of fans.

    They also produced such gems as the rotary AC/10 and /20, which bring "broken firepower" to a new level. Again, utterly non-canon- and indeed, never showed up in a real gamebook or rulebook.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)00:42 No.13978550
    I dont remember this option in megamek.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)00:46 No.13978610
    Megamek even has designs from Mechcommander.

    If you see a unit with MC-J, MC-A, or MC-W its a Mechcommander design.

    Also the Commando MC-A is better than the stock commando. All it changes is downgrading the SRM 6 to a 4 so both launchers can use the same ton of ammo. Then uses the extra tonnage for max armor.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)00:47 No.13978631
    Megamek doesn't have all the rules for everything.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)00:55 No.13978743

    Mechforce was officially licensed fan organizations for promoting Battletech when FASA owned the Battletech IP back in the 1990s.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)00:55 No.13978746
    The only reason I honestly rag so badly on the clans is the inherent advantage in construction they enjoy. The ease of optimization that an average clan tech machine enjoys.

    I dislike the fact that their XL engines are smaller, meaning that they have more crit slots to enjoy modding with.

    I dislike their endo steel being so sleek and their ferro being matching. Meaning more weight to be played around with for more equipment. The IS player tends to only get to choose one or the other... rarely both. A good number of clanners, especially medium and heavies, do enjoy this advantage, and still have the slots to benefit from it. The later IS armor variants don't address this problem... infact... usually make it worse in terms of crit slots.

    These alone wouldn't be enough to really make me angry to the boiling point that I have been at for the past 20 years. After all, it is only a faster, most spacious, and more efficiently armored beast.

    No, it is the special equipment and weapons that do it. So small, so sleek, so efficient.... so deadly. Tie this to superior pilots and this goes over the tipping point.

    The whole picture is what makes it bad. The heavy laser isn't an equalizer, it merely counters the one better to hit bonus that all clan pilots enjoy (if going with the traditional 3/4 pilot).

    Remember, the majority of clanner mechs will always be one speed modifier superior, mount more for less, and hit better. It is just a fact of life.

    IS is going to have to mount more armor to match an armor scheme, pay more slots for an equivalent engine for speed, probably skip out on endosteel or risk being internal hosed, and have to actually not carry the same payload.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)00:56 No.13978763

    This is just the facts of life. God help me if they lower clan prices not to reflect every damn advantage they get. It may not seem like much but that additional mod to hit (with more efficient TC) and to the TN to be hit (or more) is worth so very much.

    The clanners deserve it for being able to vaporize an equal mech a round with raw damage while keeping the distance or moving around... forcing endless snipes and hopes for a 11 or 12 to wing it and pray for a head shot or golden BB.

    If anything, it should be more or give the IS weapons without auto giving the clans something exactly like it but better
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)01:00 No.13978812

    And Battletechnology was much the same, so was Mechforce in the US. That still didn't make any of it canon by default, though a few things (like the Challenger-modification for the Charger) have made it into canon.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)01:01 No.13978821
    >I dislike the fact that their XL engines are smaller

    Use a Light Fusion Engine.

    >I dislike their endo steel being so sleek and their ferro being matching
    Use Endo-Composit and Ligher Ferro

    >the majority of clanner mechs will always be one speed modifier superior, mount more for less, and hit better

    Use stuff like Superchargers, TSM, Precision AC rounds, and stub ppc's
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)01:04 No.13978858

    More modern stuff is all moving toward mixed tech if TRO 3085 is any indication.

    Really the biggest offenders for pushing the balance in fire power are clan lasers and missiles. Most other clan tech is slight ahead of IS tech, but lasers and missiles are generally at least twice as good in most respects.

    FF armor really isn't that effective to mount for clan or IS unless you happen to have the free slots. It saves you 2 tons at best on an IS mech and 3.5 tons on a clan mech.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)01:10 No.13978916


    "The BattleTechnology magazines originally contributed canonical information for the BattleTech universe. Author and game developer Jordan Weisman expressly included it among the background sources for the franchise when prompted in a 1988 interview[1] and it is also listed on an advertisment page in the back of the Sorenson's Sabres scenario pack inviting the reader to "Explore the BattleTech universe with these fine products"."
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)01:18 No.13979033

    Yes, and in turn most of what came from Battletechnology became non-canon in turn. Likewise Mechforce. Hell, I wish some stuff like the Omega had made it into canon- but they didn't. And still haven't. Likely never will.

    If you're going to quote Sarna wiki, you could have finished the quote you got from there on BT:

    "However, the intellectual property has changed hands since and the current line developer in 2008, Herbert A. Beas II, stated that BattleTechnology is not currently counted among the canonical sources, overriding any earlier rulings; yet at the same time he also said that the authors were aware of and "not in total denial" about the BattleTechnology magazine either. As a result, most information from BattleTechnology remains plausible, but unconfirmed; there is only little information that was directly contradicted and thereby ruled out by later sources."
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)01:33 No.13979219

    Which is all back to it being a grey area.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/11(Mon)01:49 No.13979399

    Pretty clear to me. Either it's canon, or not.

    It's not. That it -should- be in many cases I'd cheerfully agree on- but unless Catalyst says so, it's not. Just like stuff from MechCommander or the other video games isn't, or fan organizations, or the cartoon.
    >> op !wqLZLRuzPQ!!sFrC4bLXAOg 02/21/11(Mon)03:05 No.13980065

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