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  • File : 1299058889.jpg-(342 KB, 800x518, soear.jpg)
    342 KB Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)04:41 No.14098093  
    Classic elf, human, dwarf setting, next to no magic. Elves have elders who are druids and tribe leaders. Human nobles build big estates/castles and villages form around these. Dwarves live in rock forts with an elected king.

    Only dwarves use metal. Only. And they seldom trade outside their forts.

    How is the elven and most of all the human world dealing without any metal?

    Give ideas about everyday life, architecture, warfare, technology.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)04:47 No.14098139
    They must give the dwarves tributes of beer and exotic beasts, or the dwarves release the floodgates holding back the magma, or worse, they gates that release the demons from hell. One dwarf comes out to accept the tribute. There once was an assassination attempted upon him. He beat the entire party to death with his backpack and carried on as usual. The only way to avoid this fate is to train war elephants.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)04:51 No.14098160
    Warfare'll mostly be small-scale, ambush-based, and archery-centric. Architecture will have to tend toward adobe, wattle-and-daub, etc.; particularly tall structures are unlikely.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)04:53 No.14098175
    Stone, wood, clay.
    Stone weapons, wooden/clay everything else. Think tribes.
    An estate/castle is still unlikely as per >>14098160
    Dwarves could easy trump anyone else with superior weapons. The drawven agriculture, tech, etc would be far superior also.

    What is stopping humans/elves using metal?
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)04:58 No.14098219
    >>An estate/castle is still unlikely as per >>14098160

    Not all that hard to make a stone platform a few feet high, ant on top of it a 2 floors house with 8-12 rooms on the first floor and a few on the second. A wooden tower or a few, a big ass stone wall.

    >>Dwarves could easy trump anyone else with superior weapons.

    They are very slow moving and awkward outside their coridors. They would rearly import goods other than wood that they gather themselves.

    >>What is stopping humans/elves using metal?

    Not knowing how to work it properly and the fanatical secrecy of dwarves about it.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:06 No.14098257
    You have to realize that there won't be any serious stoneworking without metal tools. Unreinforced brickwork, yes, but stoneworking? If by stoneworking you mean "cobble together some rocks of vaguely interlocking size & shape then let mortar do the rest", yes. Otherwise, no, there will be little to no worked stone outside of dwarfdom.

    Likewise, largescale use of wood in structures will be complicated by the requirement on stone axes, which lack durability & ease of manufacturing/replacement compared to their metal counterparts.

    Most construction will be limited to things that require a minimum of toolwork - hence things like cob, adobe, wattle-and-daub, mudbrick so on, so forth.

    The sweeping majority of housing will be single-storey due to these materials being less-than-ideal for large-scale loadbearing without considerable framework & reinforcement (that is rendered extremely complicated by the difficulties in harvesting lumber).

    Your "big estates" would most likely be compounds with a deep trench, a wall the height of a man or two, and a range of low-lying houses within the walls.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:08 No.14098268
         File1299060506.jpg-(92 KB, 550x367, 4176236121_4b6b60c363_b-550x36(...).jpg)
    92 KB
    If this a "neolithic" type setting I would imagine that the dwarves haven't advanced enough to be able to make complete underground cities and instead build their homes in cliff sides like in this pic.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:10 No.14098282
         File1299060633.jpg-(67 KB, 416x312, tombs_1.jpg)
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    Whoops, wrong pic, this one seems a lot better.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:10 No.14098285
    In a word:

    >> the princess 03/02/11(Wed)05:10 No.14098286
    In certain tropical areas people would use wooden weapons, they'd be shaped in the direction of a kikuri, with an larger head/blade part for it to be suited in hacking and chopping.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:11 No.14098288

    Thank you for this post, I was mistaken in my ideas it seems.


    I was imagining their forts as at first natural caves, later made bigger by tunneling. The entrance would be a walled out yard with a few work huts and most things that produce smoke or such.
    These guys would have deep knowledge of pumps and math for their work. Like I said, classic dwarves.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:13 No.14098300

    What if only dwarves use iron, but humans have bronze?
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:15 No.14098307

    Than the quest for metal wont work, would it?
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:16 No.14098316
    If Dwarves have elections, politics would be an important part of their culture.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:18 No.14098333
    Iron, unless you know how to make it into steel, is worse than bronze. The only reason people took iron over bronze was that tin, which you need to combine with cooper to make bronze, was very rare while iron was relatively common.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:22 No.14098359
    The Aztecs and their obsidian sabers. Kick the shit out of everything all day every day.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:23 No.14098371
    I was thinking about their elections...

    You would have to buy the right to run for leader or vote. This way only the most successful of them could be elected. So at some time of the year those who want to try their luck would finance and help build some improvment for the whole city - be it a new tunnel, a statue, hiring a few people to clean up the place. The old ruler would decide who are worthy and they among themselves would vote the best.

    No one dwarf can be ruler two times in a row and you cant vote for yourself. There is plenty of space for corruption, so intrigues and bribes are present.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:23 No.14098372
    Man brings up a good point. Though, the dwarves might have very good iron deposits, like those in spain, that make for high quality iron without much refinement.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:29 No.14098401
    the aztecs used almost no metal tools, most of their tools were made of stone, and the aztecs built some awesome shit...
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:30 No.14098410
    Note that the metal they did use was either lead or gold. So... Yeah.
    Their deal was figuring out which rocks were hard enough to cut other rocks, and of course, cyclopean architecture. Or was that the Mayans? I can never remember.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:32 No.14098425
    I can't see a good justification for the dwarves using metal exclusively. That isn't really always practical, and the primary value of metal is that it lets you more effectively work, say, wood. And stone. Both of which are more ideal building materials.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:33 No.14098428
    >How is the elven and most of all the human world dealing without any metal?
    The first rule of no metal world is you do not start shit with dwarves.
    The second rule of no metal world is you DO NOT START SHIT WITH DWARVES.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:34 No.14098434
    It was pretty much one then the other, really. You know, given their history and all.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:35 No.14098439
    >no magic
    >only dwarves have metal
    Well dwarves rule the world. Tools to build any stuff , metal armor that canot be damaged with bone or stone weapons, and iron weapons that can cut trough any leather armor, mat and bone in one hit.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:35 No.14098443
    They also had access to obsidian, and most of their architecture either doesn't require stoneworking [floating gardens] or only basic forms of it [pyramids built on dirt mounds]
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:38 No.14098454
    The egyptians also found a good method to split huge rocks:
    they'd drill holes into stone, put wood into them and poured water over them and the swelling wood would split the rocks...
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:40 No.14098460
    >they'd drill holes into stone
    with their dicks?
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:40 No.14098461
    Aztec empire failed to conquer one of smaller tribes because those guys knew some metalworking and were able to produce copper knives and axes. Not even bronze.
    So dwarves run this world.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:41 No.14098462
    umans and dwarves are in constant conflict over mining rights in various territories. Elves are tribal.

    Dwarves have access to more and higher quality weapons and armour. Because they spend so much time underground and in one place, they usually only build siege weapons on their mining rights for defensive purposes (think mountain fortresses). Dwarves use waste stones and ores as ammunition. Other devices to prevent invasion include molten rock and landslides. They also build large canons (the small ones fire boulders 30" in diameter), and as with the other seige weapons are built to stay. Dwarves think little of muskets, as the gunpowder is best served to fuel their thunderous weapons.

    continued next post...
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:42 No.14098466
    Humans use as little metal as possible in their weapon creation and their weapons are combinations of wood and metal (think swords with a half blade backed by wood, ala medieval AK47s); human armour is a combination of leathers and wood/metal tiles, only to soften blows. Their siege weapons are larger and made of wood and rope, designed to be portable and/or easily constructed, ammunition is usually made from local stone quarries. Humans canons are smaller and more portable and are likened to that of the Napoleonic era; they are tiny in comparison to their dwarven cousins. Humans have just started using rockets (arrows with small gunpowder boosters) and muskets, so they are fairly uncommon. Bows are common and are often tipped with flint.

    continued next post...
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:42 No.14098469
    Elves are pretty much the Native Americans of the world. They are also common wielders of bows, swords and axes (similar to their human counterparts, however more likely to see stone). Their relationship with humans depends on the area and customs of the tribe. Some elves happily indulge in trading furs, nature guides and other services for human goods. They are often in conflict with dwarves as dwarves usually drive out or exterminate existing local populations in the construction of their mines, wheras humans usually try incorperate the elven population into their own.

    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:43 No.14098473
    Egyptans used metal tools, you tool.
    >> John Galt 03/02/11(Wed)05:44 No.14098476
    The humans will probably go agrarian with stone tools. This would necessitate that they become really fucking competent at organizing and managing agriculture because of their subpar equipment... Which would probably result in a South American style population explosion as soon as the system was up and organized.

    Elves would likely never outgrow the hunter gatherer phase. Their restless nature and natural dexterity may lend them to become horse nomads, akin to the bedouins or the mongols. They would probably make it a habit of congealing into a horde every hundred years or so and sweeping through human lands, or trying (maybe successfully, you never know) to take dwarvish cities. If defeated, they flee and vanish for a long while before returning in force.

    The dwarves are actually in a shitty position. They live in well defended fortress cities, and have the most valuable resource, but that also means they have the only thing worth stealing. It would be incredibly unsafe to be a dwarf anywhere except in a dwarf fortress, meaning they would not expand often, and would likely be quickly surrounded by humans and elves. They will likely spend most of their time trying to ensnare human kings to their will, by supplying limited numbers of iron weapons to him and his warrior-elite, so as to ensure that they have an ample supply of "allies" in case anyone ever tries to take a Dwarf Fortress.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:46 No.14098483

    Good stuff there, man.

    What do you thnik is the dwarven opinion of animals? Elves and humans use them to work, for food, for companions and for warfare, but dwarves dont. Maybe I can have them be elitist and Dwarves fuck yeah! kind of folk, who are disgusted with animals being seen as more than something to kill and cook. They would see the other two races as lower life forms for their love of beasts.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:48 No.14098491

    Giving humans metal doesnt seem like a good way of keeping save. They would be basicaly arming their enemy...
    >> John Galt 03/02/11(Wed)05:51 No.14098503
    Now, I know what you're thinking. "Take a dwarf fortress? Impossible." And to this I say maybe, but not absolutely.

    These are dwarves, the guys who reproduce incredibly slowly, almost as slow as the elves, and they're the ones living in stone fortresses, rather than in looser agrarian sprawls or open cities, AND they don't trade with anyone. They're basically existing on their own in a sea of lucrative trade. While this keeps the metal out of everyone else's hands, it must also keep the dwarves poor.
    So, they have superior technology, but less wealth, fewer numbers, and many covetous enemies. They're likely to be at war with most or all of their neighbors at any given time, even if only because the neighbors hope to take metal equipment off of the enemies they kill.

    Expect decade long sieges in the hopes that the dwarves might all die of scurvy and leave a fort full of bronze forks to be hammered into arrowheads for the taking.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:52 No.14098506
    >Uses little metal, presumably because they can't work it very well.
    >Somehow can make canons and muskets.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:53 No.14098509
    You could do a sort of planned obsolecence thing, where the weapons are intended to degrade over time, and so the humans need regular replacements.
    In order to maintain their control over the peasantry, the nobility would need to remain in the good graces of the dwarves.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:54 No.14098514
    What stops the 1 in 100000 human sorcerer form using lol magic to make humans better than Dwarves and Elves?
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:56 No.14098521
    Iron axe through his skull.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:56 No.14098522
    That would be good. But dwarves should have some farming and hunting capabilities. Horses, cows, pack animals etc are treated the same: If they aren't put to use in carrying heavy loads they are eaten.

    Riding animals or use as pets is seen as unclean. The only time they would consider even riding an animal is during migration to mining rights, where they need to control the hundreds of animals pulling fuckass huge carts carrying loads of material.
    >> John Galt 03/02/11(Wed)05:58 No.14098529
    So, what it boils down to is this.
    The dwarves are surrounded on all sides by a more numerous, ravenous enemy who can sustain enormous losses and recover from it in the blink of an eye. They, meanwhile, cannot even afford minor losses because they are slow to recover and not particularly numerous to begin with. Their options are to A: Content themselves with being under siege forever, or B: Bribe the enemy at the top and hope it doesn't trickle down. Human greed being what it is, this is likely to work.

    The elves are the X factor. They arrive periodically and screw everything up by destroying city states and forcing enemies to ally to repel them. Occasionally they actually take a city and hold it, placing themselves at the top, and being assimilated into the city's populace as time goes on, resulting in many states of half-elves. Or at least part elves. Most would probably be like a quarter.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:58 No.14098530
    A musket made from anything but steel and made in any way that isn't really refined and precise will degrade over time. Over a very short amount of time, probably degrading a limb or two of the shooter as well.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)05:59 No.14098532
    >>they[dwarves]'re likely to be at war with most or all of their neighbors at any given time


    They will not attack anyone. They will not provoke anyone. To siege a fort for a year will mean your own city to be open for attack. And the humans are not united, they are just 1-rich-man-and-his-workers kind of city states.

    If elections come and the city is udner siege all big figures would build up the defence or hire, train and arm men in hope to be picked as a ruler. This would be a huge boost. So a long siege seems out of the question, if elections are made yearly.

    And dwarves are short. Their tunnels, buildings, weapons, stairs even are made for other dwarves. None of that will be usable. To storm the inside of a building made to fit someone half your size would be very awkward and hard, I think.

    Dwarves see great in the dark, so the inside of their home would be darker. This is a natural defence agains humans or elves.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:00 No.14098537
    That's not reliable enough. My money's on magic not being much of a thing here. Less that it is uncommon but still strong, more that it is uncommon but also not earthshaking when it does come up.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:01 No.14098541
    You'll need some kind of religious reason that forbids the dwarves from trading their metal - simple economics says that in an economy like the one you've just described the elves and humans would either trade their most precious resources for metal due to its high utility or else they would go to war on the dwarves.

    War against the dwarves would be a costly siege, but they literally have their backs against a mountain.

    No, they'd end up trading small amounts of metal that would find its way into human and elf tools.

    Also I think you're overstaing the difficulty of smelting, it's not overly complicated, so you'd then have to assume the world is metal bereft.

    In which case, you're talking about the environment probably being an especially lush, temperet rainforest with thick enough vegetation prohibiting mining. The dwarves mountains would then be at a sufficent enough distance to prohibit interaction, and thus trading of technology. That also quite eloquently ties in to >>14098139's suggestion - the dwarves are mysterious because they are unknown.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:01 No.14098542

    See, the thing is that if dwarves are the only ones with metal, they're like GODS on the battlefield. Metal weaponry is GOOD. Like super-good. A Macahuitl can go through flesh, but it blunts instantly against shields and other weapons. Flint weapons like axes aren't much better. Metal means SWORDS. Swords mean reliable up-close fighting and PARRYING. You can suddenly knock a spear aside and go in for the kill.

    There's literally no reason to trade with any nondwarves, unless they control something extremely valuable. Which they might.

    It's entirely possible that the dwarves need to rely on human or elf lumber industries to work their metal, which means they need people to cut down trees and that they supply metal axes and other supplies as gifts.

    In fact, that's likely the BEST way to go about it. Dwarves trade copper axes, and steel strikers so that humans can cut down trees and make charcoal. Humans trade charcoal for agricultural tools. Dwarf emissaries are placed in every contracted human town to ensure secrecy.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:05 No.14098555
    >>14098541 again,

    So you've got a world where the species have obviously been around long enough to develop societies, but they've never had metal. You think about the way metal defined early human civilisation, even the Aztecs, who still crafted in gold and bronze.

    You would have, and I imagine the Elves would lead the way in this, especially sophisticated means of shaping and hardening wood. Especially if you're talking about a metal-poor jungle, with a variety of long-lived woods, and ample botanicals that might have properties capable of hardening them. Sap hardened leather armors, bone, there's a lot to work with there.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:06 No.14098556

    Then what stops humans from eventually getting ruled by a magical elite and the elves from eventually getting magical high elders?
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:07 No.14098559
    OP on magic - tell me if it doesnt make sense:

    So magic leaves a heavy toll on the casters body. It takes a great physical effort to cast and control magic.

    So magic users will die young from internal bleeding or brain damage. Elven druids clans find and train magic users so they can last longer with the moral of the story being "only use it when you have to".

    Human and dwarven mages exist, but dont last long. In humans most mages will be seen as awesome and great, starting revolts and leading the poor to battle against their masters. Most of the time they will be sold out by their own or will die trying co summon some destructive force on the enemy.
    In dwarves magic users are hated because until they learn to control their moods and power they are dangerous in the underground tunnels.

    So magic is rare because it is very mortal to the wielder.
    >> John Galt 03/02/11(Wed)06:08 No.14098565
    Humans have never needed a reason to attack someone except that they have something that they want.
    Having a material that makes all forms of labor easier and not sharing it? That is provocation. A war between Rome and Carthage nearly started over the color purple, this is that in spades. Maybe literally.

    The other points are fair, but counterbalanced by the fact that there cannot be many dwarves. Sustaining a large population takes hundreds of miles of farmland. Just grazing off of what one can grow inside a fortress would mean that any enemy, even from an individual tribe that spreads out, will outnumber these people enormously.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:09 No.14098566
    Archiving this thread.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:09 No.14098569

    But see in any economy where something has ultimate, exclusive utility, the other economic actors will either - a) replicate it, and quickly. Or b) steal it. You look at metal throughout human history, no one in contact with another non-metal using race went without metal for long or else was wiped out. Logic dictates the Dwarves would either - quickly wipe out the other two races, or else trade with them, quickly equalising the playing field, or else be seperate from them completely.

    So you could maybe set the game at a point in that cycle, where the other races are in the process of being hunted to extinction by dwarven slave raiding parties? Or else are on their way to negotiate the purchase of a large ammount of metal tools? Or maybe steal them.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:09 No.14098570
    Nothing. In fact, less than nothing. In a world without metal but with magic, rule by magic is inevitable.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:12 No.14098576

    Maybe not. Look at the setting of Dragon Age, where the Chantry cracks down on magic users who are treated as pariahs. Maybe the other races see magic as an abomination? And the Dwarves, with the most powerful weapons, if they saw magic as abhorrent, they'd be in a position to do something about it.
    >> John Galt 03/02/11(Wed)06:12 No.14098577
    If the dwarves had a civilization that sounded like it might actually function, I'd agree. But the situation we're in here basically necessitates that they be retarded. They have no economy (that much is evident, or else metal would have proliferated) and no agriculture beyond their own borders (also evident, or someone would have attacked and stolen tools by now) and thus, must have small populations in equally small fortresses, while everyone else is performing real agriculture out in the limitless plains.

    50 men with steel weapons against 150 men with stone ones, I'd bet on the steel, but the numbers are likely to be many times that. This is like Cortez vs the Aztecs if you had taken away his guns.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:13 No.14098581
    ooow! I am imagining a human Magi Empire that has an epic mage breading program where the lowest surf gets to become a lord if s/he has magical abilities!
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:15 No.14098588
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    OP on food - tell me if it doesnt make sense:

    Elves go for animals - they are mobile, herders, nomads, hunters, fishermen. They move around, so they dont kill off all the pray and they follow big herds of game while leading their own stock.

    Humans to for working the land - they need big pieces of flat and fertile land - they clear forests and expand as the population grows.

    Dwarves go for shrooms, roots and tubers that they farm in their forts. They may also dry meat. Because they are protected from the elements the most the cycles for growing are not limited by the summer time and they have a few yields per season.

    Also, captcha is even worse than me in spelling.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:15 No.14098590
    If the dwarves have some sort of subterranean agricultural thing going, this schematic falls apart. I do agree though, without a really unlikely set of unknowns being true, the dwarves are between a rock and a hard place.

    So, without losing their metal advantage, what could they be doing to dominate this environment?
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:15 No.14098592
    But if Magic is ultimately self destructive then the ruler will not last long.

    There could be a cabal of magic users that rule, but I guess it would be similar to the nuclear arms thing that happened. If you use nukes then everything goes to hell. The cabal would have to get by solely on the threat.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:17 No.14098601

    > Chantry cracks down on magic users who are treated as pariahs

    I doubt that would happen if no magic meant death by Dwarves. Though rise and fall of magical society's would still happen among humans--allot.

    >And the Dwarves, with the most powerful weapons, if they saw magic as abhorrent, they'd be in a position to do something about it.

    But their metal can't do shit to our reality bending magic.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:20 No.14098607
    Is their agriculture really effective, or more of a 'we can plan out how many mouths this city is going to feed to the last bite this year, ten years in advance. The number is 30.' deal? If it's the latter, than this has a chance to avoid being a dwarf domination setting, because they'll be heavily outnumbered by everyone around them, necessitating effective leadership at all times and a shrewd and conservative attitude towards everything, to avoid being overwhelmed.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:20 No.14098608
    OP on short dwarves with short legs. short.

    They dont attack for a reason. They cant run or even walk fast enough. On the open field they could be killed by a squad of naked men throwing stones at them.

    So no dwarven dominance for this world.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:21 No.14098612

    Well then you've got a kind of detente. Magic beats metal, but metal beats every thing else. With only a few mages amongst the wider, non metal using population, the dwarves would either trade the secret of metal working in return for the secrets of magic, or if they couldn't use magic because of some inherrent racial flaw, their metal would be irrelevent, magic quickly beats metal, dwarves die in fireballs, human steal metal.

    You have to get that balance right before this would work.
    >> John Galt 03/02/11(Wed)06:23 No.14098616
    I don't think the idea is for them to be the dominant race. They're reclusive metalworkers with an insular and xenophobic society, yes? So this is actually just fine for them. They'd probably build their fortresses out in the ass end of nowhere and draw as little attention to themselves as possible. Eventually someone discovers them, and they fight a bloody battle for survival and either survive and move somewhere else to avoid repeat attacks, or are overwhelmed and kill themselves/die fighting to keep the secrets of iron from being tickled out of them.
    This is really the sort of thing we need to ask OP though.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:25 No.14098620

    that's why I reckon there'd be no open fields. Dwarves live in mountains, barely accesible to other races. Humans and elves live in impenetrable forests that are difficult for dwarves to navigate and are difficult to mine. Dwarves wouldn't go there because there's nothing to mine anyway. Trade routes would develop along rivers that run through the forest, up into the mountains. Dwarves might have developed boats for trade and as a kind of gun ship diplomacy against every one else? Assuming no gun powder, they roll down stream in sail-less barges bristling with ballista and 'negotiate' with the other races over trade.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:30 No.14098638
    I thought the dwarves didn't much trade with anyone. What would they actually trade for if they did? Dirt? Wood? They're the only ones who can actually effectively chop wood to begin with.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:31 No.14098639
    >there'd be no open fields

    what about areas with poor/sandy soil or less rainfall?
    Open fields forms naturally you know
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:31 No.14098645

    Then magic can only play around with physics, but the more extreme the change, the more strained the user. Powerful mages will need gallons of water, tables of food, and days of rest after killing that metal using Dwarf legion. Said mage will die when killing a Dwarf army. Thus mages need to use things like Alchemy (magical in this setting) to achieve anything close to normal low magic settings--while staying alive. Also, anything that would be too catastrophic results in the caster being sent to an eltrich dimension due to magic error.

    What do you think OP?
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:35 No.14098667

    For quite some time the races didnt meet all tat much and thats why these unique cultures exist in the same world.

    But humans taking more land to support their growth made them a target for elven raids. Also, their desire for sparmed their interest in the dwarves. I think the elven druid with their mystical ways would be interested in gems and stones the dwarves have and like to collect.

    And the seas... I dunno, havent tought about it.

    Humans need land to live, their way is farming.
    Elves made animals a big part of their live and are nomadic, building a ship is too big a project for them.
    Dwarves are up in the mountain would have a hard time defending a port.

    Any ideas on who gets the oceans?
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:38 No.14098681

    Using reagents to cast is nice. Maybe gem stones can help focus magic energy, and these are found in dwarven mines. So elves have an interest in them.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:39 No.14098686

    I think mountains aren't too generous when it comes to edible animals and crops.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:39 No.14098688
    I'd bet on humans or elves, either would work with a bit of flavoring, in the style of the Phoenicians.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:40 No.14098690
    >there'd be no open fields

    Humans produce these to farm them. Forest fires naturaly produce these. Climate naturaly produces these.

    Elves will not be woodland folks, more like border-of-the-forest people.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:41 No.14098694
    I was watching a show on China and during the Song Dynasty they had invented tons of stuff. Movable type, paper money, gunpowder, the compass. They have giant cities, a huge navy. I was thinking the Dorfs could be like that.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:43 No.14098709
    Pirate Kobolds.
    With tricorn hats and everything.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:44 No.14098712
    Oceans are up for grabs. Elves and humans can make wooden boats, dwarves would stick to really big boats (arks) if they MUST traverse water. Dwarves hate lots of water.
    >> John Galt 03/02/11(Wed)06:45 No.14098721
    I'd bet on humans, just because they'd have the most impetus to start building vessels on the sea, as they have cities in that region.
    Elves could work too though, ones who weren't out there to raid and pillage, and instead acted as the primary force of trade between human cities.

    Or even human and dwarvish cities-if anyone is going to be smuggling stuff into and out of a fortress, it'd be them. A sort of underground tin trade based on moving fruit or exotic hooch into fortresses (maybe against city regulations) in return for scarce amounts of metal.

    Since they can't really work it themselves, they have to settle for whatever the dwarves will give them, but even baubles made of copper would be the treasure of kings.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:45 No.14098722
    The oceans are ruled by sea monsters and infested with skeletal sharks. No one in their right mind wants to sail out of sight of land.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:46 No.14098725

    Inventors and engineers would be big players on election day, they would be respected.

    How do you advice new forts are formed?

    1. Rejected, exiled, angry dorfs move out to seek their fortune
    2. Old fort is depleted, compromised, infected by disease or claimed by the elements and town moves to a new place
    3. A colony is created by the rich forts
    4. An outpost is created and as it grows it gains independence

    Also, should forts somehow comunicate and exchange word/tech/people/goods? They will be some distance apart and dorfs will have a hard time walking from one to the other.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:48 No.14098738

    I still imagine human mages out numbering elf mages. Like this: >>14098581 happens. Human mages = quantity, Elven Mages= quality.
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:51 No.14098753
    Humans = Phoenicians
    Dwarves = Egyptians
    Elves = Picts

    the analogy breaks down a bit because of the presence of steel and instead of the Nile they settle on rivers of magma
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)06:54 No.14098767
    When a fort has been mined out, there's a mass migration to build another fort or reenforce existing forts. When a fort goes over a certain population count, they send a set number of dwarves out with essential supply to survey/scout for potential mining rights (this is both population control and expansion). When one is found, they dispatch half of the remaining population with materials to immediately start construction on their mining rights. This allows them to remain competitive with other races.

    If the populations are large (fast breeder dwarves) this habit would be more agressive. If populations are small (slow breeders) then "baby" forts would be kept hidden until it's been developed further..
    >> Anonymous 03/02/11(Wed)07:09 No.14098820
    OP on trade, fix any obvious mistakes:

    Humans farm mainly for food, but also for tobacco or hemp. Very, very few humans actually use any of these, and elves find their herbs in the wilds, but dwarves may be interested in buying some. Maybe before sealing themselves up after a migration, or some scouts importing the stuff.

    Dwarves produce metal and gems, but dont trade them often. Metal is used for tools and weapons, gems are used for toys and decoration.

    Elves sell tons of leather, dry meat, herbs to humans in exchange for grain, ornaments, decoration, slaves.
    They also exchange goods with humans and smaller forts by raiding them and taking what they can. They would consider the other races poor, as they dont own any herds.

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