Bumping with random dungeon map generator.

http://davesmapper.com/

Bumping with all 3.5 DPFs

http://aristocracy.dyndns.org/nerd/3.5/

Bumping with good/neutral undead culture.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/9663834
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/9682570
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/9697573

Bumping with necromancy handbook.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5584.0

Bumping with Necromentals.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041015b&page=3

Bumping with necromancers bible.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Tome_of_Necromancy_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29

From the SRD:
The original’s physical remains, should they still exist, become inert and cannot thereafter be restored to life.

This implies that the original corpse can't be reanimated just as you couldn't animate the clone. Since it say's "restored to life" instead of animated, it's kind of a DM call but I would say no.

So, somewhat unrelated question. In Icewind Dale 2, when/how the fuck do you get things like Raise Skeleton for a Necromancer?

1: The remains become inert afterward, so I would assume they can not be raised or reanimated in anyway.

2: Those templates don't have a specific manner in which they are applied. I always assumed they were a random chance aspect, so I do not believe so.

3: I will use this in my next campaign. Thank you very much.

"Only intelligent undead have, or are, souls"

That implies, but doesn't outright state, that awakened undead have souls.

Looks like a grey area though. Do you like the idea of SOULLESS INTELLECTS? Then go nuts.

As to nega-rats... eh, that's why I favor the idea that only a meaningful enemy can constitute a statted monster. Do ordinary solo rats even have stats? But by RAW, YES YOU CAN

>>14364278
I was thinking undead may be different from life but it sounded pretty OP to begin with. Thanks for the answer.

>>14364297
Note that lots of things that forbid rezzes, don't forbid undeadification.

>>14364285
Never bothered with Necros in those games.

The key word is inert. The stone to flesh spell also creates inert flesh.

>The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance. Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available. (For example, this spell would turn a stone golem into a flesh golem, but an ordinary statue would become a corpse.)

If the flesh created by stone to flesh can be animated then so can the original corpse after transfer to a clone, or just the clone for that matter. No dying necessary.

>>14364311
Such as a necromental?

>>14364341

So I can effectively have two of myself. Correct?

>>14364385
I'm pretty sure you can reanimate the clone. I'm not sure you can have multiple intelligent spellcasting undead versions of you.

>>14364385

Why stop there?

>>14364394

Ten four. Thank you for the input.

>Zombie Bulette APC?

What does APC stand for?

Spellstitched? Is it great or should I pass?

>>14364447
Armored Personel Carrier.

Bullet could work for this, but I'd suggest a bigger creature since you'll want to hallow it out first to make this work effectively.

>>14364447

Armored Personnel Carrier

>>14364455

It's pretty damned awesome. Go for it.

I did the destructive ret+army of hummingbirds thing in a game once, except I used the undead suicide bomb spell in BoVD along with a rod of lesser chaining. The DM was less than happy when I nuked the great wyrm red dragon who was supposed to be the end game BBEG. And then of course we were totally unbalanced afterward because we had 155,000gp in stuff each.

>>14364478
DM shoulda had the Red have a ring of evasion, or death warding of some kind.

>>14364463

Dragon then. As a plus, I could drop the destructive retribution rat skeletons and carpet bomb like a madman!

>>14364497
Indeed, I was about to suggest that Dragon's a good one, but if you're up in the air you're a target. Getting a few undead draconic drop-ships is a great move, but don't stop there.

Take a look at the Delver on page 39 of the MM, and the Dragon Turtle on page 88 of the same.

Delver can not only get you there under cover of armor, it can get you there Underground and then burrow up behind enemy lines or into fortresses.

Dragon turtle doesn't have the same utility, but has plenty of others. The enemy has a big navy? You now have an undead submarine. Go wild.

Also, undead flying sharks are always a pluss. Look at the Terlan from Fiend Folio.

Refresh my memory. Does the spellstitched spell-like abilities depend on the recipient or the wizard?

>>14364552
Or for that matter, use the Terlans as sea-to-surface or sea-to-air missiles from the coast-line, have them ordered to attack each other when they get into the enemy ranks, or set them up with contingencied fireballs that you can launch from the Dragon Turtle or the Dragon Dropship.

Btw, thanks for bringing these ideas up. My players won't know wtf is hitting them.

OP here. Keep up the magnificent work gentlemen. I must step out to lunch but will return ASAP.

not OP, but interested DM here. What do you need exactly as a Necromancer to create an undead aircraft carrier / ground missile-launcher submarine ?

>>14364571
Undead Manticores. They're not all that great at high levels, but against minions and lowbies they will be devistating, espeicially in high quantities.

With their ability to hit at range with their spikes (180ft range, 6 per round max, 24 per day max, 1d8+2 per hit) they can make terrifying strike teams or air-to-air combatants.

Undead Rust Monsters. That army over there? The one full of pallies and clerics that are going to smite the fuck out of your undead monstrocities? They're unarmed now. Enjoy ingoreing their non-leathal smiting.

Speaking of turning and smiting, never forget the value of non-living combatants. Grab a few golems and constructs, but make sure that you add in some blood or fleshy bits too them so that they don't know why the turning isn't working until it's too late. Flesh golems might work perfectly for this.

Ghosts and spectres and the like. Being incorporeal means that they aren't going to be stopped by barricades and walls. Sieges have a lot less teeth to them when you can just send your minions in a few at a time to wreak havoc and take away their infrastructure while they're trapped by the walls they thought would protect them.

>>14364620
Oh my. Let me take a look at the right sources and I'll get back to you on that in about 5 minuets. I know you'll need either a cleric, dread necro, wizard or sorcerer to really pull this off well (maybe archivist too), and you'll need Corpsecrafter out of Libris Mortis, and Destructive Returibution too (both feats from LM).

I'll look up the specs now. brb.

Quick idea: Desecrate, Corpsecrafter, Destructive Retribution, Spellstitched, Grafts, = Omega Undead

>>14364671
Hokay, let's see here.
First off, the feats I mentioned earlier, Corpsecrafter and Destructive Retribution.
CC=+2 HP per HD on the undead you create, and +4 Strength.
DR= 1d6 negative energy damage +1d6 per 2HD after the first, DC 15 reflex save for half, 10ft radius.

Next you'll need the Terlan from Fiend folio, though really, any flying/aquatic creature will do, so you could add the Winged Creature or Fiendish template to a shark or merfolk and get about the same thing, Terlans just came to mind as they have everything needed on that front already (Fearful effect on players, Swim speed, flight speed, and so forth)

Nimble Bones (Feat, Libris Mortis) grants a speed bonus to the undead you make or raise, so that helps your missiles get there faster.

Animate Dead, or the Create undead spells. AD=3rd level necromancy on the Wiz/Sorc list. Create undead was 6th and Create greater undead was 8th. You are also going to need the Undead Leadership feat so that your ability to control undead isn't limited to the 4x (your HD). It operates as normal leadership save for that you attract undead instead of living followers.

Plague of Undead might also help after a big fight to bolster your forces again. General of Undeath is probably a good one too, but it seems to be a Cleric spell. I think my spell compendium might be 3.0 though, so it may be worth it to look up yourself.

Doesn't Hollowfaust : City of Necromancers have a warrior class that can be reduced well beyond zero HP and still consciously attach things in zombie form?

>>14364671
thank you dear anon. I have already a "nice" undead with the Eternal King i've shamelessly stolen, now I need so evil standard undead vilains.
One of my players already did in an other campaign (not one of mine)a Mecha-undead : the necromancer inside an animated Ogre Magi....

>hrompa this
Indeed, captcha, indeed.

>>14364753
You forgot the non-undead options to add to it.

Lycanthropy.
Fiendish
Get a psion to help out and make it Phrenic too.
Dark Creature, give it Hide in Plain Sight and a bigger racial bonus to hide so that even if they have True Seeing they'll never see it comming.
OH, and Spell-warped so that it gets Bonuses when they fail the caster level check to overcome SR.

>>14364766
so much win.

>>14364788
>Get a psion to help out and make it Phrenic too.

A psion can't just make things phrenic.

>>14364785
Hmmm...I may need something along those lines soon. One of my players is an artifacer focused on Constructs.

Having a giant-robots fighting around the field while the party takes down the 'casters and minions. I'm thinking we'll have a grand time of it.

I just wish that Oozes could become undead so that I could toss pic-related at them some times.

>>14364819
True, but there is precidence for psionic things making more psionic things. Elans reproduce by finding humans with talent and putting them through the works of a ritual of some sort and making them into aberations. There aren't mechanics for it specifically, but it's not beyond comprehension that if someone forced the info out of them, it could be twisted to a more vile use.

It'd be a DM call mind you; don't just apply the template haphazzardly.

Could one loot a Fire Giant graveyard and ride and control it like a mecha pilot? "This hand of mine glows with a wicked power.
It's burning grip tells me to defeat you!"

I can't get the image out of my head of a undead Bulette vomiting up a legion of exploding skele's. It's too glorious!

>>14364779

I remember the Ash golems from that book being very amazing.

>>14364864
Well, you're looking at 15HD of undead in one unit, so it could be done, but it'd be a heavy investment. You'd want to armor it up as best you can, and will probably want to add Hardened Flesh to your list of Feats after Corpsecrafter (+2 Natural armor to UD you create).

However, nothing on the Fire Giant's statblock states that they have fiery effects attatched to them. They look the part, red hair and dark red skin, but nothing about burning hands.

At this point btw, a Titan might be as good a choice as a Giant, because in order to get the full reference, you're going to need to be able to cast through the creature or to implant the spells into it.

BUT, if you look up, you'll see something called the Spellstitched template, which allows the undead to cast a small number of spells if their wisdom is high enough. So, just apply that, make one of the spells Burning hands, and add some meta-magic effects to make it viable damage.

Since Undead require little to no space, food, air, ect. Could you squeeze them into projectiles and trebuchet them into combat? That is, if they survive the impact.

Now that we have the creative necromatic juices flowing, what would be the most effective class to pull most of this stuff off? Dread Necro/Pale Master?

>>14364942
Why do I'm thinking of the Bullfrog APC of Red Alert 3, undead version, right now ?

>>14364974

Probably just straight cleric.

>>14364942
Destructive Retribution only works when they die. Why not make it so they Don't survive it, launch a bunch at once, and do a bunch of damage all over the place?

Alternitavely, have a slow-fall effect hit them on the way down, or attatch time-set parachutes to launch about 10 seconds after they're set flying to minimize the falling damage.

Another option is to send them in with a high-level wizard, or at least with a 'caster or UMD specialist that has something to cast Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion or Leomund's Secure Shelter. Have them cast it inside a projectile with a door or an opening, but make it something solid and stable.

The spell makes a dimensional gate Inside the projectile. When they're sure it's landed, the door opens up, and (if you're using the mansion) an entire army of undead waltzes out of a 5x5 sphere.

Undead army, Clown-Car brigade.

OP here. So we have come to a consensus?

Casting Awaken undead on your corps may work. DM Discretion advised.

You cannot make other party members undead using Bone/Corpse Creature.

Destructive retribution army of rat skeletons can work as a suicide bomb/carpet bomb way. To what effect, I don't know.

Zombie Bulette APC is great but there are better, more esoteric, monsters to transport undead.

Correct?

>>14364974
Straight Cleric allows for access to the high level stuff fastest, and to improve your CL so that you can effectively gather and create all of these.

Wizard allows for about as much utility, but loses General of Undeath and Turn/Control undead. There are some PrC's that could certainly help them out (Master Specialist out of Complete Mage, Pale Master, etc.)

Another thing to consider is Being undead as well. Master Vampire out of Libris Mortis gives you another source of minions; spawns that you've made yourself. It also grants 2 levels of spell progression (out of a PrC of 3 lvls total)

Master of Shrouds (Divine PrC, 9/10 progression) would help a lot with the incorporeal aspects of the army, especially if you don't mind some of them running wild; (summon undead shadow, kill people, which spawns more shadows, which kill people, which make more shadows......----> start undead appocolyps)

Heck, True Necromancer might help if you can convince your DM to count your 'casting progressions as seperate sources for the 4HD controled per HD of the 'caster, though that's rather far-fetched.

>>14365047
>Casting Awaken undead on your corps may work. DM Discretion advised.
Yes
>You cannot make other party members undead using Bone/Corpse Creature.
Probably not, but turning them into vampires might work if they're above 5HD.
>Destructive retribution army of rat skeletons can work as a suicide bomb/carpet bomb way. To what effect, I don't know.
I'll outline the effect.
-Rats have low HP
-Fall damage will kill them
-Even as undead, the above statements are true
-Destruc-Ret causes them to do a d6 negative energy damage, DC15 reflex to avoid
-Stacking them on top of each other when they die will probably result in a single reflex save for the collective damage, or at least so many saves that the targets will fail some of them
-rats are easy to come by on battlefields, and easily killed with the right spell selection or fumigation options.
=Cheaply made mass producable bombs that are devestating against standard infantry and dangerous to mid-level PC's.
>Zombie Bulette APC is great but there are better, more esoteric, monsters to transport undead.
Exactly, and lots of ways to use them other than APC's.

Quick question.

Are there creatures that cannot be turned because the amount of obsidian needed is far more than can be pun into the eyes, mouth, skull, etc.?

>>14365047
>Casting Awaken undead on your corps may work. DM Discretion advised.
Agreed. Fluff on souls seems to be slightly against it, but it works by RAW, so see with your DM.
>You cannot make other party members undead using Bone/Corpse Creature.
Wait, why not ?
>Destructive retribution army of rat skeletons can work as a suicide bomb/carpet bomb way. To what effect, I don't know.
Absolutely. It's a preferred tactic of many a Dread Necromancer.
>Zombie Bulette APC is great but there are better, more esoteric, monsters to transport undead.
Dragons are pretty cool for this.

>>14365112

>You cannot make other party members undead using Bone/Corpse Creature.
>Wait, why not ?

Mostly because there isn't a spell for it.

>>14365138
Create undead or Create greater undead, depending on the HD of the target. It says so right in the template.

>>14365111
Not really, the spell requires an onyx gem worth at least 50GP per HD of the creature.

So what you need is one Really Expensive piece of onyx, not tons of 50GP black marbles.

Go find some priceless cultural artifact from an island nation that has an active volcano and you should be set. Better yet, slaughter the island nation and have made into an undead obsidion artifact factory.

>>14365149
Oh, actually, looks like this has nothing to do with HD. But yeah, either Create undead or Create greater undead works.

>>14365149

So it does...

>>14365138
The templates themselves actually say they "could arise from a create undead or create greater undead spell" so it's up to the DM, but there is an argument for it.

Tomb Tainted Soul>Necropolitan

Or would Master Vampire supersede TTS?

>>14365160

Thanks for the info sir!

>>14365160
I'm quite sure it's 25g/hd, but I might be wrong.

>>14365160
Now that I think I've caught up witht he questions, more brainstorming through the manuals.

Undead Pixies. Greater Invisibility at will. Several other useful spell-like abilities, including Polymorph.
=Invivisble 8-headed pyrohydras that can cast illusions, detect thoughts, and entangle enemies before burning them all, and then turn back into invisible, small, flying monstrocities to escape or continue harassing enemy forces.

Undead Minotaurs. Big. Solid. Shock troops.
Sometimes you need to hold the line, and exploding rats just won't cut it. Minotaurs, ogres, even orcs could do. You can't hold a city or garrison a fortress with a few big creatures, you've got to have a proper army to organize all of it.

Oh, and don't forget to make your cohort take Leadership. And to have their cohort take leadership. Etc. (undead leadership is a good idea, but some times it pays to have living aid as well as the undead and the constructs; they can make some of the best spies and espionage agents.

>>14365266

Undead leadership still allows you to attract living followers but more importantly there is nothing stopping you from taking it and regular leadership.

>>14365187
You need to Be a vampire in order to qualify for it.

Hell, why bother with TTS if you're going to be a Necropolitan? TTS is for when you're not going to be undead but still want to heal from Negative energy, which is why most Dread Necromancers take it until they become liches much later in their progression.

Ok. We have a great selection of undead and uses for said undead. Lets focus for a moment on the PC in question. What feats/spells/classes/items would you need to pull something of this magnitude off?

>>14365286

">" is the symbol for greater than.

Tomb Tainted Soul>Necropolitan

Means that TTS is greater than necropolitan.

>>14365284
Yes there is. Undead Leadership states that you can't take both it And leadership.

Thrallheard, on the other hand, does not. Check Expanded Psionics. Can't stack Leadership, but by Raw it doesn't say anything about Undead Leadership.

>>14365266

Undead pixies. My God.

>>14365316

Oh that's what I meant. I knew it was something.

suptg is fucking up for me, this had better be archived

>>14364229
> http://davesmapper.com/

That is fuckin' cool.

>>14365306
AH, my mistake. In that case I'd say that TTS is actually the weaker choice. Necropolitan has all the buffs of being undead, and while it does have the drawbacks, it doesn't cost you a feat to gain. As a crafter, (corpsecrafter, etc) your feats are one of the most valuable class features available.

But, if you're taking Master Vampire, then you're an undead anyway. The MV PrC requires that the character Be a vampire though, with at least a couple spawns, so you'd be looking at either the +8 LA of the MM1 template, or an 8 level investment in the Vampire Spawn base class.

Probably not worth it in hindsight.

>>14365344

Glad I can be of service.

I second the motion to archived.

Undead grafts. Does it say anywhere that you have to replace body parts with the undead one or can you add multiple limbs to yourself and become an abomination?

bumping for archivers!

Thanks for your request.
It has been added to our database and the thread will be archived as soon as enough request for that thread have been made.
This thread has been requested 1 times now.

>>14365367
And more fun stuff.

That flying fortress of a dragon you're thinking of making will probably attract attention, and some of your enemies will probably have flight capabilities. The manticores I mentioned earlier are a good start, but to have a defense localized on your craft, I suggest that you put several Brains in Jars (Libris Mortis, page 90) along either the inside with view-points or outside with carefully structured crystal or diamond settings.

Mind thrust, 2d10 on a failed DC 14 will save as a standard action. Anything that attempts to mind-screw or thought-detect them in return takes 1d4 Wisdom damage. THey also get Suggestion, Telekinesis, 3/day, and Dominatie 1/day so that they can turn enemy flyers against each other, and can Rebuke any undead that you lose control over or that your enemy sends.

To guard your stationary forts, fill the moat with Boneyards (page 88, LM).

Dream Vestige. This is another heavy investment, LM page 96. This thing carries a Desecrating Aura with it to boost your entire army, is incorporeal, can do normal damage with a touch attack, dealing 3d6 normal damage and 1d4 int drain. If it gains enough temp hit points (+5 each time it drains) to equal its own HP, it spawns another one. If it reduces a target to 0 int, it absorbs the physical form, which might not be near as good, as there's no corpse to animate, but hey, you've got a Dream Vestige, and you'll have another one soon if it goes well. Frightful presence is a given, and not bad for shaking morale, but the real kicker is Dream Travel, which allows it to pop into the middle of your enemy's forces and Just Wreck Their Shit. Failed saves shatter the line, attacks weaken their resolve, and even if they best it, your forces will be on top of them before they can recover.

>>14365501

Make that two

>>14365531

This is too awesome for words. Stay classy /tg/.

>>14365493
No, but you still have a carrying capacity, and if you add too much mass for your strength, you'll start slipping into over-burdened territory.

But yeah, I've been looking at a fighter-type with lots of Ghost Arms attatched, and a few alterations to increase their reach to 10 o 15 feet. 1d6 on a touch attack, 6 touch attacks, weapon focus, specialization, improved natural attacks, amulet of natural attacks, and combat reflexes.

Yup.

bumping for archive

Archive this masterpiece!

>>14365575
And now its time for me to start tossing completely sideways ideas at you folks.

Roving Mauler in the Tome of Magic. It's a pair of back-to-back lion heads placed as caps on a wheel with legs for spokes. It rolls everywhere. Why the hell would anyone make an undead of this?

Because they can move at 40 base speed, 50 with the relevent feat from Corpsecrafter's tree. Because they attack by running over your enemies, which means that you can attack the front line and then keep going to take out their wounded and non-combatants afterwords.
Because you can send them up cliffs and over walls like it's nobody's business.
And Because if they die, they explode for 2 to 6 d6 of Destro-Ret damage depending on how advanced they are, meaning that their already disheartened forces won't dare attack them until they've already passed by to attack once or twice and are desperately throwing swords at them as they curve around for another run.

Tooth Beasts, page 89 of the Tome of Magic.
Why? "Sprint after Fear".
These things can sense fear in creatures within range of its blindsight, which is 120 feet. With all of the other fear effects being tossed about by your myriad other undead atrocities, and the simple non-magical fear that comes from watching your lines of infantry being run over by fucking wheel-lion-corpses that explode if you attack them, means that it can charge to hit any creature it sees affected by any sort of fear condition. It can do this any time it senses fear, and it senses fear everywhere around it, because it can also Cause it with a Fightful Moan ability (DC 13 will save), and then it's got the usual Pounce+rake+grapple rape machine that comes with most vicious claw-things.

>>14365575
Pretty sure a ghost arm only replaces existing arms, you can't use grafts to just make yourself a double marillith.

>>14365741
Also, it looks like a hairless bear with teeth all over it. Everywhere. It has teeth for eyes, I swear, look at the art on that page.

As for the pic related on that post, Awakened Vampire Cat. It's smart, it can talk, it can probably cast spells if it's had some class levels on top of it's template, it's cude and adorable so that it can get close to the party.

Then it can turn them, one by one, while they sleep. It can Dominate them one by one as they look lovingly on the cute little fuzzball. It can Bestow Negative Levels if it so choses.
It can call on creatures of the night for a distraction if the PCs start looking at it too closely.

It's tiny, so it's harder to hit. It's got fast healing and DR10/Silver and Magic.

It will tear them appart.

I'm going to go look for where I put MM3 and then I'll be right back.

>>14365741
instead of a steed for your undead lord, craft for him a bitchin" motorcycle, with undead roving maulers as wheels. try to keep them permanently on fire.

>>14365779
Cats can't be Vampires.
Vampires can't be Awakened.

People with this tenuous understanding of the rules PROBABLY shouldn't be engaging in shameless minmaxing, boyo.

>>14365761
I just looked over the Graft rules in Libris Mortis. There's no restriction on the over-all rules. On some of the specific grafts they require an empty eye-socket or that you knock out a couple of teeth to make room for vampiric ones, but I don't see limitations on a generalized basis.

>>14365804
A Cat can be awakened by a Druid.
And the Vampiric template from Ghostwalk can be applied to Magical Beasts.
Problem, anon?

>>14365814
Pretty sure ghost arms replace an arm.

>>14365804
Awaken the cat first, then apply the Monsterous Vampire template from Ghostwalk. Animals are included on the list of acceptable subjects, as magical beasts. Thank you for checking my work though.

>>14365819
You're thinking of Monstrous Humanoids, not Magical Beasts.

>>14365819
No need to be snarky, but thanks for the help.
>>14365820
I'm looking over the grafting rules on LM page 79 and 80, but I don't see particular restrictions of that sort. Mind you I'm not great at fishing for particular sentences, so it could still elude me.

>>14365838
No, he's not. the Ghostwalk setting has a vampire template that's basically the MM template except that it Can be applied to just about anything else that the MM vampire Can't be applied to.

The intent was to allow things like Yuan-Ti Abominations to gain the vampiric template, as they're a significant enemy in that setting and so can be tiresome if the DM doesn't mess around with them for some players.

>>14365838
CREATING A
MONSTROUS VAMPIRE
“Monstrous vampire” is a template
that can be applied to any
aberration, animal, beast, dragon,
fey, giant, humanoid, magical
beast, monstrous humanoid, or vermin (referred to
hereafter as the base creature). The creature’s type
changes to undead. It uses all the base creature’s statistics
and special abilities, except as noted in the vampire
template in the Monster Manual and as noted below.


You don't give up easily, hmm?

>>14365874
Hello Crawling Appocolypse, where have you been?
Page 143 of Sandstorm folks. It's a Gargantuan Undead Octopus with spikes on its tenticles instead of suckers, has a Fear-inducing appearnace (DC25 will save or be paralyzed with fear for 1d4 rounds, so that the Tooth beasts mentioned above can have some targets) and Mumy-rot to boot whenever it hits. It's also got a ton of HP, via unholy toughness adding its Charsma bonus per HD.

And it has a burrow speed, so we've got more death from underground.

Personally, I preferred Ghouls as the base of my undead army, with Wraiths as my scouts and airforce.

Ghouls are great, because they create their own loyal spawn without any sort of need of expensive gear. Plus, they are intelligent, which means that the first ghouls you take on can gain class levels. Have them drag around wagons with self reseting Mass Inflict Light Wounds traps on them, and they are basically unkillable, and can one shot any level one soldier that gets drafted.Since I think the world is like 80% lvl 1 commoners, your army is basically unstoppable.

Wraiths make great anti air troops. Give them ghost touch swords, cast permanent darkness on said swords, and you've got a delightful force that can go anywhere, can't be hurt by standard weapons, and make more of themselves. Likewise, they are intelligent, so they can ALSO get class levels, and all spawn are under their control.

Combine the two, and any two bit wizard or evil cleric SHOULD be able to take over the world without too many issues.

>>14365954
Anyhew folks, I'm feeling a bit tapped out, and MM3 isn't really inspiring as much as I'd thought it would right now, save for maybe some undead topiary guardians. How's the archival attempt comming along?

>>14365954 Jesus Christ!

Yeah, how is the archival attempt cumming along?

Bumping for glorious undead battle tactics.

>>14366032
Well, I'm back, and have some spare time today, so I'll be continueing to post various nifty tactics that come to mind as I scan through the MM's and such. Further questions and ideas are welcome, and we'll see where this goes from here.

Next up, Voidwraiths. LM 131. Now, these things have a con-draining ability that's supposed to be their main threat, and while that's all well and good, the real danger here is its Airless Aura.

See, Airless Aura makes it impossible for things to breath anywhere around it, so any creature adjacent to the creature must hold its breath or else deal with suffocation rules.

So, how can we make the best use of this? Well, the thing itself is incorporeal, so it can occupy a space along with a corporeal undead (which doesn't need to breath). This means that any mortal enemy who's facing your infantry can't do so for more than a few rounds before needing to withdraw to breath. It's a small boon, but every drop in the bucket counts.

Alternatively you could get a large group of them to collectively aid a single grappling foe and just hold them down until they suffocate, but that seems like an innefficient use of it.

>>14367109
Now then, let's talk about being a real bastard. If you've got the Planer Binding spells available to you, then this is going to be a great way of dealing with those pesky smite-happy do-gooders.

Angels and Archons alike are invariably powerful in their own right, and having a few of them summoned and subsequently killed and raised brings thier powers into your arsenal. The Astral Deva (mm page 11) alone has at least a dozen different spell-like abilities available to it.

Let's not forget that they usually have DR that's broken by Evil weapons and items. Against competition (other necromancers, 'casters, diabolists and the like) they bring their smite-evil, their protection against evil, and their good-aligned gear. Against good aligned characters, they're still resiliant, having plenty of SR and damage reduction to hold the front while you make your way to flank or to otherwise strike at an opposing force via more normal (for you) methods.

You can't raise a demon once slain since it turns to mush. True or False?

>>14367320
The Reomorhaz (MM1, page 214) is a great addition to the burrowing devestation we've already covered. This one won't work so well as a transportation device, however, as one of its extraordinary talents is "Heat". An enraged remorhaz generates heat so intense that touching its body deals 8d6 damage. This only hits the thing striking it though, so while natural attacks and unarmed attacks are subject to it, foes striking with mele weapons aren't in As Much danger; instead, their weapons get a DC 18 fortitude save to avoid destruction; Watch the fighter falter as each of those magical and potent weapons crumbles.

Additionally, it can swallow opponents whole. That means that this thing can take a couple of large, or 4 medium (and so forth, doubling each size catagory) completely out of the fight with a successful grapple check. It's not impossible to get out, but each round that they're inside the unfortunate snack takes the same 8d6 from Heat in addition to 2d8+12 from getting smacked around. Total average damage from being eaten? 48.

Two rounds of that will end a 5th level fighter. 1 round of it will end any regular lvl 1 warrior.

Also, since it's capacity for consumption goes up to Large size, it can potentially consume Siege weapons in case the enemy has had enough wits to bring some heavier firepower.

>>14367362
You make a good point, and I'll have to check this to make sure, but that's usually for the summoning spells (Summon Monster #) rather than for things like Gate and Planner Binding which actually bring the creature's true form to the material plane. I'll check this now.

>>14367320

You don't know what you're doing to me! Posting such quality content, it's unbelievable...

>>14367397

>>14367362
Personally, I believe that the body of a dead Outsider killed outside of its home plane sublimates in a couple of hours, with its essence returning to its plane of origin. The visuals of this effect varies with each kind of Outsider.
If you use necromantic magic quickly enough, you can animate it into some kind of undead that doesn't naturally rots or use magic like Gentle Repose to delay that process.
I think this is mentioned some place, but I can't remember where.

What is Hollowfaust and is it recommended reading?

>>14367500

See

>>14364267

It's a possibility...

>>14367502
I don't know what hallowfaust is, though it seems nifty if the context of the names is anything like the source.

That said, I just spent 10 minuets typing up abusable Exalted Feats and items before capcha ate my post. Want me to repost or move on to abusable Exalted spells?

>>14367362
True. Solution: Go to the demon, where you're the Outsider and it's not. Kill it. Raise it. Bring it back.

>>14367558

Go 4 it bro

>>14367522
But Necromentals, like Blood Fiends, are specifc strains of undead that infect Elementals/Outsiders. They can only be created by others of its kind. Also, they don't "rot", what might stop their physical bodies from returning to its home plane.

>>14367522
And I'm not saying you can't animate them, only that if you turn them into a zombie or skeleton, they might disappear in a couple of hours if don't apply some kind of Gentle Repose or Dimensional Lock.

Hokay, I'll abreviate the latter and add explenations if needed.

Feats
>Concecrate Spell
>Nonleathal Substitution
>Resounding Blow

All three are in BoED, and are either Metamagic or General, and so can be used without the deal-breaking good alignment.

Additionally, look up Positoxins and Afflictions and Ravages; poisons and the like that only work on Evil.

Why use these? Because being a fucking powerful Necromancer attracts as much Evil attention as Good as your peers attempt to ursurp you. Make 'em think twice by smiting the first one with holy power, and make both sides wonder just where your power is comming from.
>

>>14367659

I like the way you think.

>>14367659
Fail-safes are always a great idea.

>>14367659
Now for spells


Energize Potion. Make a potion into a 10ft radius energy grenade. A bit more expensive than undead rat bombs, but easier to have on hand; keep those Inflict potions around at higher levels, you never know when you might want a thermal detonator. 1d6 damage per level of the spell in the potion, and you chose the energy type.

Warcry
Creatures within 30 foot cone save or cower for 1d4 round (Tooth Beast:" Hey look gaiz, more fear! LET'S EAT IT!")

Healing Touch
You take 1d6 points of damage per 2 caster levels and heal the same amount. That lich next door? Yeah, fuck his shit. You're taking the negative energy to fix yourself and punch him with positive energy. Then you're stealing his beer and leaving the door open on the way out.

Perfect Summons. Creates area where only good creatures can be summoned. That Malconvoker is trying to be tricky; kick his ass before he figures out you're already on the up-and-up.

Axiomatic Creature; turns creature into an axiomatic creature.
What's that Rightous Fury Barbarian? Bard spells causing trouble? Make them lawful and they lose their class features just like the Pally.
(On further inspection, it turns out that it only works on Lawful or Neutral characters to begin with, but if you've got Detect Chaos available to you, just pick your targets carefully. The Neutral Good ones still fall if they go lawful.)

>>14367758
Further expanding on the Axiomatic creature spell....

Hot damn, this'd be good to put on some of your own forces. Free Smite Chaos 1/day based on HD, SR=2x HD of the target creature, energy resistances, and telepathy with others of its kind. This could make for a hell of a strike team if you don't mind the risk of Smite Law that some things tend to pick up. Don't dedicate your whole force to it, but damn at least hit a squadron of Ghouls or the Manticorpses with it.

Speaking of which, while you'd have to Really Really Really be nice to your undeath-causing diety as a Cleric, you can potentially spontaneously cast Sanctified spells. Maybe go with a Neutral one like Dracanish of the Ghostwalk setting so that you can keep your feet in both puddles. Reason being? Nothing baffles the forces of good more than more forces of good on the other side of their fight.

Valliant Steed, 6th level sanctified spell. What do you suppose Pelor's Finest will think when the HORRIBLE AWFUL ATROCIOUS NECROMANCER that they're here to smite rides in on a celestial pegasus?

Careful though, Sanctified spells are cost-heavy, and can be dangerous to the caster under Normal circumstances, let alone being the wrong alignment for them.

>>14367863
Switching books now, and looking in on Complete Scoundrel.

Let's say you're not going Pure necromancer 'caster. You want to be able to take a more active role in your enemy's failures, and so you want to be there in the camp when your forces breach the walls to sabotage their last lines of defense. Besides, where are they going to expect you to be? The Forboding Fortress. The Secret Cave! The Underground Unholy Laboritory!!! Not chilling with their bros by the fire, enjoying a drink and pretending to be just another fella trying to get by in a sad, one-sided war.

First off, Skill tricks. You're still a spellcaster at heart, so if you're going to do this well, you'll want to be able to hide your spellcasting. Sure, you could invest two feats into silent and still cast and slow your progress (if you're Lame), but it's much easier to spare a few skill points from that Rogue or Spellthief or Bard multi-class into Skill tricks like Conceal Spellcasting, allowing you to make a slight of hand check to avoid your somatic components from being seen.

Or maybe you've gone to necromancy via Clerical spells, and are "helping" in the injury ward. False Theurgy lets your spell appear to be one of the same level.
"Doctor, I don't understand, I keep putting healing spells on the patients, I keep asking for cure spells from the Great Lathander but it keeps hurting them! What can I do?!"

Archive this. NOW!

>>14367970
Or for that matter, rather than blatantly going for Inflicts, one might consider the Necromantic Cyst spells and gradually subvert their entire army with Necrotic Tumors and the like.

When shit hits the fan and your Cohort leads the attack, smack the hospital with a Mass Harm and an Avascular Mass before you go.

Perhaps you went a bit further into bard than you'd planned, and decided to pick up dancing? Cloaked Dancer in Complete Scoundrel can (with the addmitedly high cost of a 5 level progression and only 2 spell-levels...) cause a fear effect with the usual 10+1/2HD+charisma mod DC to Everyone In 30 Feet of you.
(Tooth Beasts: "Wow, there's fear everywhere today. Let's maul it some more!")

Consider this a small token of my thanks and gratitude contributing anon. May it inspire you, as you have inspired us.

http://www.war-doa.com/ddforum/downloads/Hollowfaust%20City%20of%20Necromancers.pdf

>>14368061
Slight delay while I look around in other sources for new material. Currently glancing through Stormwrack, and Frostburn's next. Other suggestions or requests?

Archive this immediately.

>>14368213
"Hallowfaust: City of Necromancers"

It seems I have my new source. Back in 5 /tg/entlmen. Thanks a bunch Anon!

>>14368213

Not the intended person but thanks none the less for the link

>>14368213
Ah Hollowfaust, one of my favorites...

>>14368235
>>14368255
No problem gents!

Pic related. Me and ma familiar

>>14368317
Aaaaand back!

And while Hallowfaust prooved to be an invaluable resource on necromantic culture and stylings, and will inevitably be an influence on my games and characters of those themes, I haven't seen a whole lot about the practical applications (or rather, militaristic) of death and undeath for the time being.

Back to the 3.5 sources for now.

>>14368213

That art look similar to the BPRD comics.

Ghost bump

Finn: Yeah, there's a big sleeping lava man in our front yard, he is so hot...
Jake (hits Finn's arm suggestively) Mmm hmm.hehe
(Ice King glares at the two of them.)
Finn: I mean, not like sexy hot, but...
Jake: No, you do mean sexy hot.
Finn: No, I mean...
Ice King: I DON'T CARE!

>>14368527
Sorry, not ghosts this time, Boneclaws.

Large undead, but their ownly real advantage is that they have a long reach. Not really all that useful, right?

Wrong. Put these things on something that can fly and they will be your most terrfying vanguard, the deadly harbingers of your forces. They'll need a mount, or a template that lets them fly without changing shape too much, but the ability to simply fly over a group while reaching out and lacerating them (With power-attack) no less will make these things a horror to witness.

Plus they look fugly, but we're talking undead here. MM3, page 17.

And then we flip forward to page 21 for the Cadaver Collector. Not so much because it's immune to magic of most types, (thouth that's useful) or because there's a greater version that's CR 17 and can use a breath weapon that has a paralizing effect;
they're just useful for bringing more material back to work with. Good help is hard to find in a war-time situation.

>>14368605
Oh now here's a kicker. The Geriviar on page 52. If you manage to kill and animate this thing, there is no conventional army that can stand against you in a fantasy setting.
>Batter, ignore hardness when dealing damage to items.
>Exploding Nodules. A geriviar's body is >covered with nodules filled with bits of its >natural armor and some explosive chemicles. >When thrown, it does 5d6 piercing damage, >and 5d6 fire damage, DC 31 reflex for half. >They regrow the nodules in 3d6 minuets.
They Grow Grenades On Themselselves.
>Rock Throwing, it can toss 60 to 80 pound >boulders at 180ft range. And it can do this >twice per round.
No need to invest in artilary, not that there ever was with the rat-destro-ret bombs.
>Spell-like abilities. Reverse Gravity, >Telekinesis 3/day
>Invisibility and Shout and Stoneshape 1/day.
Yes, this Huge Giant-esque creature can be invisible and then use The Force to wreck your enemy's vehichles, caravans, and fortresses.
>Immune to disease, mind-effects, poison, fire, >and sonic
One of the few things resistant to that last one.
>Leap, always take ten on Jump checks, and a >DC 15 check negates the first 60 feet of a fall.
You can drop this guy off from your draconic drop-ships, no parachute, minimal fall damage.
>Rock catching
It can catch a siege weapon's projectile with a reflex save according to size.
>Sprint, run at 6x speed.
It starts with speed 70.
And the last part?
>Regeneration, acid and cold work normally.
Those guys see it recovering and think "Fire, quick burn it like a troll!"
Nope.jpg.

And it likes to fight at a distance. It's Huge. It's Fast. It Hurts you like hell and you can't hope to catch it. It wrecks your fortresses, your siege engines, and your hopes and dreams.

>>14368668

>>14368668
Now, to elaborate, this creature would be an Enourmous investment for a Necromancer. It would be the core of your army, the pride and presence of your power. It has 26 HD. If used effectively, Nothing would stop you. Earlier there was a reference to carving open a Giant and using it as a giant-robot-corpse thing, and if that is possible at all I can't reccomend the Geriavar enough to use as the basis. Set up some divination spells in all directions attatched to mirrors inside of it, set yourself up a swivil chair in the middle, and some telepathic communication methods with your leutenants, cohorts and minions. (Make sure that swivil chair is padded because that 100ft fall from the dragon dropship will probably hurt if you don't)

The spellstitched template attatched to this thing would be terrifying, but not near so much as the potential for simply shunting Staves into its arms and using them as magical hand-cannons for 9th level evocation spells (as inevitably this will be done by a high level 'caster, since I doubt anything shy of 15th level has a hope of keeping it in one piece to defeat it). Add in some abjuration effects to shore up its already formidable defenses, and you are looking at something that could stomp a Tarresque into the ground and keep on going.

>>14368668
No longer will I have to crush the enemy, breezily, with my "mitts"!

>>14368732
Dear God, it's a mobile fortress!

>>14368732

I dub thee "Overkill Engine"

"Holy stuff! We have lost control of the creature! Where is the commander?!"

"In the belly of the beast."

>>14368750
>>14368802
>>14368836

I think my work here is done. Seems there's a good amount of demand for odd methods and combinations of necromancy, and just use of monsters in general. I'll see about posting some time later this weekend.

One last question though; Trip, use it or lose it?

So, wouldn't you have a problem if someone just opened a massive gate to one of the strongly positive-aligned planes? I don't even mean from the potential heavenly host of vengeance that might charge out, I mean just from the bleeding out of positive energy.

Speaking of the Tarresque, I have a contingency to submit. Please consider this modest proposal and judge it accordingly.

>world's Big Bad World Ending Monster >(Terrasque, we'll say)

>Don't kill it, just disable. Do whatever you have >to in order to get past it's anti-magic defenses. >(there's lots of spells that will do for this, and >most of them stack)

>Cast Trap The Soul on big nasty monster.

>Take gem, turn it into a phylactery. Become a lich.

>Tell the world what gets let out if it breaks.

ARCHIVE THIS IMMEDIATELY DAMN YOU!

>>14368888

They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."

>>14368888
In that everyone would be dead, yes.

Except that no, opening a gate doesn't mean the contents spill out. Opening a gate to the plane of fire doesn't incinerate the world. Opening a gate to the plane of water doesn't waterify everything.

>>14368888
Ironically, your force works just as well on a positive energy plane as the negatives. Because of how positive planes work, all the undead get are fast healing X when on a positive energy plane. On a massively positive plane, there is a risk of the undead exploding from too much health, but that's a risk all creatures share.

As for bringing in critters from the positive planes, unless they have full casting, they're basically a joke. If they have full casting, you can be screwed, but proper planning prevents positive powered persecution.

>>14368888

This thread has officially made my day.
Scratch that, WEEK!

>>14368992

Actually, I seem to recall somewhere, probably Planar Handbook, that the larger gates tend to alter the area around them a bit. Besides, anyone powerful enough to create that kind of gate is going to mean shitloads of trouble anyways, especially if he does something silly like starts casting Sanctify the Wicked on all your superpowah units.

>>14369098
I'm okay with someone costing themselves one level per superpowered minion.

Totally read that in Moss' voice, damn it.

Now I need to watch IT crowd.

>>14369110
He'd only have to do it once if he got range on, say, you.

Not to derail the discussion, but what does /tg/ think about the necromancers in Diablo lore?

I have a quick question. On the dand wiki, it says that when a bag of holding is pierced. all of its contents are lost forever, but it didn't say that they would be destroyed. What would happen if you put your Phylactery in the bag then pierced it? Would you destroy the gem and die, or would you basically have become immortal?

>>14369225

You would regenerate and be lost on the astral plane somewhere. Hope you can cast a planar travel spell spontaneously!

>>14369221
Dont they worship a skeleton dragon and are neutral/neutral?

>>14369225

Forever alone is what happens

BUMP FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS

Bump for the Bump Gods!

P.S. Archive pls

Ok guys, contribooting in a small, small way. It's not much, but I have to send you guys something to thank you for all of this win.

Heroes of Horror, 3.5, page 139. The Bane Wraith. This thing is basically a turbochaged regular wraith; Incorporeal, 8 HD, 80 ft./round fly speed at perfect manueverability, etcetera. It can creat wraiths, too. Aside from these normal shenanigans, however, the Bane Wraith has the ability to read the thoughts and mind of every sentient creature not immune to telepathy in 30 feet, which mostly give it the ability to discern exactly where said sentient creature believes it's loved ones are. So all you need to do is send one of these out to scout a bunch of soldiers during war, and then send it and it's small army of wraiths out to kill those soldier's wives/husbands, kids, friends, parents, grandparents, etcetera, and make all of those people wraiths as well.

Nothing says 'fuck you' like haunting scores of low level opponents with their dead families.

For those who have access, the same book has rules for a Cadaver Golem that is made from dead parts, and can take limbs and their attached abilities from the field in battle to repair itself.

Two questions /tg/:

1) Is there a spell that bolsters undead when raised with the minerals in the ground?

2) I vaguely remember something similar to Shape Stone but involving bones. Does it exist?

I know its a long-shot but it's better than nothing.

>>14369360
Does it have an LA listed. Please gods tell me it has an LA listed.

Also, archive this shit.

>>14369360

Horrific and cruel, just the way I like it! Brilliant!

>Also, archive this shit.

Me three

>>14369391
Do you mean Iron Bones? It's a Magic of Faerun spell, gives corporeal undead +5 natural armor.

ARCHIVE THIS NOW DAMNIT

>>14369221
Read The Sin War trilogy. You wont be disappointed. Most interesting Necro's I've seen in a man a moon.

>>14369360
Hmmm...I like the idea for demoralizing troops, but I think this could do better than enrage or dishearten them. You know where their family and loved ones are? Sure, move some shadows or other undead that you can spare there, but don't have them attack just yet.

"If you fight here, you will die, and no one will survive to protect your lovers, your families, your children. But you have seen my power. You know that I am able to do whatever I set out to do, and the reason is this; I care. Too long have I seen the meek and infirm fall to the hands of death, and that is why I have become what I am today. Too many times have your churches burned an innocent or condemned what they do not understand, and that is why I have sought to thwart them. But you? You are the people who are here for your kin, for your hearts, and because of that same courage you could do good."

"I do not ask that you join me, though I would gladly have you among my allies whether alive or dead. I ask only that you step aside, and do not impeed me. Those of you who would see a world beyond death, beyond the suffering of the meek for the sake of those who have hoodwinked them into servitude to those who have brought you here to Die, simply stand aside, and I will make it happen. Join me, and we shall create something Good."

Now, I know it's cheesy, and there are folks more eloquent than I am, but if you've got the potential to threaten their hearts and homes, but are not only willing to hold off, but will withdraw that threat as a sign of good faith, I think you'd win a good number of living converts there too.

Heck, see if you can't figure out a way to make a few Deathless (positive energy undead) to help the idea along, as well as a few undead angels.

>>14369482
Thank you Anon!
May your glass always be filled my friend.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD! ARCHIVE DAMMIT!

.

"Hell is only a word. The reality is much, much worse."

.

>>14369553

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/14364205/

>>14369538

I think there is a spell Shape Bone in Hallowfaust but I haven't read it in years.

>>14369594

You are a gentleman and a scholar.
May the blessings of Khorne be upon you.