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  • File : 1301368781.jpg-(81 KB, 450x600, Italnato2.jpg)
    81 KB Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:19 No.14400895  
    Is there a canon IG that's closer to a modern, 1st world army in aesthetics and tactics? Cadians don't fit the bill and seem generic.

    Can one do it with conversions? Run such an army on tabletop?
    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:21 No.14400912

    If you want a modern game, play Battlefield Evo. 40k is about WW1 style heroics, charging machine gun nests with infantry as artillery decimates the trench line. If you want modern GTFO and play some stupid historical game.
    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:22 No.14400919
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    Tallarn, Vostroyans.
    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:23 No.14400934

    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:26 No.14400960
    Elysian Drop-Troops, maybe?
    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:30 No.14401001
    wtf are you talking about? The IG is meant to be DIVERSE.

    Feral armies, the Steel legion and Elysians are sure as fuck not like that.
    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:32 No.14401016
    They still have guns that shoot like ten feet max (to scale).
    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:32 No.14401017
    They all operate using tactics from WW1. If op wants to play a modern force he shouldn't be playing 40k.

    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:36 No.14401066
    I will suggest Ariadna faction of Infinity, a SF miniature game. Former 1st world faction but some temporal malfunction made them disappear for 100 years and... While every faction has hackers, Ariadna do not have that kind of thing. Instead they field SAS, Rangers, and Highlander snipers with sufficiently modern looking equipments.
    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:38 No.14401076
    You could just take Elysians/Cadians, but replace the head and guns.

    There's plenty of 'modern' conversions for IG vehicles.
    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:43 No.14401105
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    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:46 No.14401137
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    Stop being a faggot and play Tau jesus christ.
    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:46 No.14401140

    You know, I hate to agree but... yeah, essentially this.

    No one, NO ONE should be in Warhammer 40k to play modern styled forces, because it's simply not how the IG roll.

    Closest you could probably get would be Elysians
    Also Space Marines I suppose.

    If you just want a modern looking force then convert.
    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:48 No.14401152
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    wow, people are actually telling op not to have an army the way he wants to?

    anyway OP, use humans with tau rules. Or go for a heavy grenadiers army.
    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:49 No.14401168
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    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:50 No.14401170
    >wow, people are actually telling op not to have an army the way he wants to?
    There's no reason to play 40k if you don't want stylized space fantasy.

    It's like asking how to play a high-science faction with no blasters in Star Wars.
    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:52 No.14401185
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    He's asking for 'modern', not science.

    Modern looking/vaguely modern playing force =/= hard scifi realism
    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:54 No.14401202
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    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:55 No.14401208
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    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:55 No.14401212
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    There is no "modern playing" force in 40k. OP should not waste his money and play a game that simulates modern tactics and strategy better.

    Infinity comes to mind, Stargrunt, Battlefield Evo, or Tomorrow's War.
    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:57 No.14401231
    >Is there a canon IG that's closer to a modern, 1st world army in aesthetics and tactics?

    Forgeworld's Elysians look very modern, albeit with a bit of sci-fi thrown in for good measure.

    Tactically though? 40k is not a game for modern combat. Does the ImpGuard codex allow for a Mech Infantry force still? I know in the older one, you could run your entire army out of Chimera's with Russ support, which is more 'modern first world' than any other faction.
    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:57 No.14401237
    I'm pretty sure you could convert an army to look like one. I don't have a clue how you would go about playing it though.
    This website has some great bits that you could use.
    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:58 No.14401239
    IG, outside the Whiteshield squads, Cadians are actually well armed and commanded very well. There are not many instances of the blind meat grinder tactics other IG forces employ.
    Also, Elysians for SAS/US Air Cav, Steel Legion uses organization very similar to modern small forces deployment these days.
    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:59 No.14401245

    How about if you can't help, you fuck off and let somebody who CAN help answer his questions?
    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:59 No.14401247

    I hate to break it to you dude...
    But those look horrible.

    kill_me_now_it_hurts_to_live.jpg horrible. Modern just cannot into Warhammer 40k.
    >> Anonymous 03/28/11(Mon)23:59 No.14401248
    I'd say go with Elysians. Fast in and out, mobile forces with fairly advanced tech seem similar to today's military.

    Sending in Valkyries full of soldiers Black Hawk Down style, right into the heart of a chaos infested city.

    Everyone with a hard on for WWI guard can play Death Korps and shut the hell up
    >> That Guy !CrwtTbFNxQ 03/29/11(Tue)00:00 No.14401263
    Elysians have their own list as of IA8. They act very closely to modern armies in that they rely alot on air support and paratroopers.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:01 No.14401272
    The AirCav lists are probably the most reflective of modern warfare. Leafblower can be fluffy!
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:02 No.14401276
    I haven't played Warhammer in..5 years, but I remember you could have a relatively modern-like IG force in 4th ed.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:04 No.14401288
    The only way to get a "modern" force would be Elysians as >>14401231 said.

    Rules-wise, it's doable with a stormtrooper/vet air-cavalry or mech vets in chimerae.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:04 No.14401291
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    Pouches, camo and helmets are most essential for a 'modern' force IMO
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:04 No.14401295
    Fuck you buddy, I did answer his question. I said no.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:05 No.14401297
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    >> That Guy !CrwtTbFNxQ 03/29/11(Tue)00:05 No.14401299
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    The guns look nice anyways.
    Catachans will always look ugly without gas masks or something.
    I run them with Cadian respirators, makes them look less derpy.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:05 No.14401303
    Depends on your definition of modern.
    US tactics of small, elite squads in ground based vehicles or on foot (vets in chimeras) being assisted with armor on the ground (russes), arty and surgical strikes (bassies and medusas) with gunship support when needed (valk/vendettas) is very modern and all very capable in 40k with the new dex.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:06 No.14401316
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    Shit, Ambush Alley made a fucking Sci-Fi Game?

    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:06 No.14401318
    >Cadians don't fit the bill

    Huh? If you can't build an aesthetic equivalent to a modern military out of them, I don't know if I can help here.

    WAIT. Tallarns. Make the whole thing special forces style infiltration teams. It works, you know it does.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:08 No.14401333

    No you didn't, you told him he can't play whatever kind of army he wants (protip, he can).
    So yeah, fuck off.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:09 No.14401345

    And you were fucking wrong, now stop shitting up the thread spouting your retarded opinion over and over again, we heard you the first time.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:10 No.14401353
    My thoughts as well.

    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:10 No.14401358
    He CAN, but he's still going to be trying to do "modern tactics" with an army composed of lasguns and giant bulky tanks. Fireteams and Abrams, they are not. The best you're going to get is WW2-era tactics, because "tanks and motorized infantry" does not innately count as modern.
    >> Shas'o R'myr !!J5+vjygjQuK 03/29/11(Tue)00:11 No.14401362
    Elysian Air Cavalry.

    Drop guys, drop sentinels, chupathingys, and more air support than God.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:11 No.14401363
    No, he asked how to play a 40k game using modern 1st world tactics.

    The answer is you can't.

    >> That Guy !CrwtTbFNxQ 03/29/11(Tue)00:12 No.14401375
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    OP here, have the codex/Army List for Elysian Drop Troops. This is the closest you can get to fielding modern military in 40k. I'll include the fluff for you too.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:13 No.14401383

    Nobody likes neckbeard rage, now if you have a problem with this thread, go blog about it. You have no place here.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:13 No.14401390

    40k's entire schtick is the variety of some shit in it, since you can basically have cavemen to superscifi and everything in between.
    40k isn't strictly world war 1 and 2, they put all sorts of shit in there. One of my favorite regiments is the Praetorians, and they're victorian era soldiers.
    >> That Guy !CrwtTbFNxQ 03/29/11(Tue)00:14 No.14401396
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    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:14 No.14401399

    >>implying infantry combat has radically changed since ww2
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:15 No.14401406
    >Someone doesn't agree with me so I'll just tell them to leave

    Nice debate tactic dipshit.

    Op, you are never going to get a modern style band together in 40k, the rules are too derpy to allow for it. Its a fun game, but if you want a modern feel, you need to look elsewhere.
    >> That Guy !CrwtTbFNxQ 03/29/11(Tue)00:15 No.14401407
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    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:15 No.14401413
    >implying it hasn't
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:15 No.14401414
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    Oh, sure, he can do the AESTHETICS. But I don't think they actually have the vehicles/stats to do anything close to modern tactics, and if people think otherwise they don't know that much about modern tactics.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:16 No.14401421

    I smell more fat sweaty neckbeard rage.
    I'm not debating you, i'm telling you that everybody in this thread disagrees with you, and that is why you have no place here.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:16 No.14401425
    Infantry combat is vastly different from WW2 these days.
    >> That Guy !CrwtTbFNxQ 03/29/11(Tue)00:17 No.14401432
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    Is anyone interested in this?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:17 No.14401437
    I don't disagree with him.

    Good attempt at a generalization though.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:18 No.14401454

    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:18 No.14401455
    >fat sweaty neckbeard rage

    You know how i know you aren't winning this argument?
    >> That Guy !CrwtTbFNxQ 03/29/11(Tue)00:19 No.14401461
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    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:19 No.14401465
    your army can look however you want it to, as long as the models you use aren't too much bigger or too much smaller than the regualr models.

    Ruleswise, using modern tactics is difficult, if not impossible.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:20 No.14401470
    Not really fucktard, you're just grasping at straws at this point.

    OP, again, I iterate, if you want a good game for 28s, try "Seek out, Close with, and Destroy." Fantastic game for modern combat.
    >> That Guy !CrwtTbFNxQ 03/29/11(Tue)00:20 No.14401479
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    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:21 No.14401490

    You've iterated like a dozen times in this thread, you really don't need to keep saying it.
    >> That Guy !CrwtTbFNxQ 03/29/11(Tue)00:21 No.14401494
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    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:21 No.14401495
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    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:22 No.14401502

    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:23 No.14401508

    I wasn't trying to not be, I don't understand how the picture correlates though.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:23 No.14401510
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    Never heard of that.

    I tried shark's "Modern Ops" was pretty fun actually. I like that they statted Osama.
    >> That Guy !CrwtTbFNxQ 03/29/11(Tue)00:23 No.14401511
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    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:24 No.14401520
    OP here

    Basically that. I want to play a more mobile IG that isn't about static cannon fodder. I mean--I *do* realize it'd be ridiculous to say you can have anything like a milsim for something like 40k. But I like the 40k fluff, and more people play 40k than the other games.

    Not too strict about a 'modern' look. Mostly the tactical aesthetic modern armies have than trying to make them look like a 100% real-world military. Cadians just don't seem to have the right helmet shapes, but their armor seems workable.

    awesome. thanks.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:24 No.14401522
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    You could arguably use Flames of War as a modern game, just change a few of the tank names around.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:25 No.14401527
    You keep going on about "modern tactics", start defining them.
    >>14401303 presents a good view of what modern tactics with the small (by scale) forces available in the average 2k point game can be achieved. The issue you seem to be bringing up is that for as modern as you may want to play, you may be up against forces that eschew that modern method. See guerrilla warfare versus conventional warfare.
    You can try to be as modern as you want, but when you are dealing with giant creatures thundering on 6 legs towards you, or men in armor with weapons designed to chop you up in CC, your "modern" approach needs to be able to deal with not modern offenses.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:26 No.14401536
    Battlefield Evo OP. Modern Warfare.
    >> Alpharius 03/29/11(Tue)00:26 No.14401545
    Elysians are fairly modern drop troops that look like Daft-punk. Good for a Commando feel.

    Catachans are AHNOLD style 80s action stars in the jungle, like Predator or Rambo. Good for the semi-modern commando feel.

    You can run anyone as Mech Guard for a "Cold War Theoretical Russian Tank-storm" with lots of IFVs.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:27 No.14401550
    Tank shell from 4Km away. Monster is dead. Abrams crew breaks open a brewski.
    >> That Guy !CrwtTbFNxQ 03/29/11(Tue)00:27 No.14401552
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    >> Alpharius 03/29/11(Tue)00:28 No.14401559
    Doesn't change the Army usually running a modern style, just because you may need to shoot a daemon here or there.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:28 No.14401568
    Cadians fit the bill as a modern first world army.

    They're heavily armored and work in close proximity to their fellows. They are shock troops who utilize everything at their disposal to eliminate the opposition.

    Stop being bad at IG.
    >> That Guy !CrwtTbFNxQ 03/29/11(Tue)00:29 No.14401579
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    Glad to help. Last two.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:31 No.14401589
    I hate these threads. Everytime they get made you have trolls who play themselves off as 40k fans and scream that "DUDE IG LOL WW1 SO COOL LOL MODERN IS SO GAY U JUST DONT UNDERSTAND WARHAMEMR LOLOLOLOL!" its like im really talking to the 12 year olds that get dropped off by their mom at my FLGS

    Go with Elysians op, or Cadians with some body work. The Elysians are most likely what you are looking for though. They are presented as a futuristic force "in our time" light airborn infantry with solid tactics and strategies. This of course being 40k they usually lose.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:31 No.14401600
    Welcome to 40k where creatures can eat such things and keep on running.
    Stop tipping your hand.
    >> Alpharius 03/29/11(Tue)00:32 No.14401602
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    Just go away the Op doesn't want a modern combat game, he wants a semi-modern force in 40k.
    >> That Guy !CrwtTbFNxQ 03/29/11(Tue)00:32 No.14401605
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    And last one.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:32 No.14401609
    That was my first post in this thread.

    My view of modern warfare is artillery & air strikes, mechanized infantry and tankhunting. Charging into melee isn't very modern.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:33 No.14401619

    In theory, the Ad Mech could just attach servitors to every gun, missle, and turret that could get their hands on and it would put shame to modern "smart bombs" except they don't really want to.

    I mean, why wast hundreds of soldiers lives when you could just use cruise missile with a servitor guiding it to get the job done... But then, that'd be wasting a servitor.

    I mean, IG and las rifles are exponentially easier to replace and there is no shortage of them.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:33 No.14401621
    Wait, are you expressing surprise that the strawman you just set up sounds like a 12 year old? You're the one who wrote it.

    Are you really suggesting that being interested in World War 1 and recognizing the established thematic concepts in 40k is MORE likely to make one a 12 year old? Because check this out:

    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:33 No.14401624
    It's downright stupid.

    Physics don't lie, nothing can stop a round from an Abrams.
    >> That Guy !CrwtTbFNxQ 03/29/11(Tue)00:34 No.14401630
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    Read the little square in >>14401432
    Only one of the mentioned regiments hasn't been slaughtered to a man.

    Also, OP, this is what a painted Elysian looks like.
    >> Dr. Baron von Evilsatan 03/29/11(Tue)00:34 No.14401634

    It's entirely setting-appropriate. The only resource the Imperium has in surplus is human life, and they are more than willing to spend it well.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:35 No.14401639
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:37 No.14401655
    You can make 'em look like one, but I doubt you can make 'em play like one.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:37 No.14401659
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    More effective then anything in 40k.
    >> That Guy !CrwtTbFNxQ 03/29/11(Tue)00:37 No.14401661
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    No, Elysians are stick-thin compared to the other IG miniatures. This is Doomguy.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:37 No.14401665
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    OP, cadian helmets can look fairly modern if you mess with 'em.

    Pic related.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:39 No.14401675
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:40 No.14401678
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    Actually in reply to myself... What am I thinking... Ad mech armies are basically all expendable servitors except they don't want to share such things with anyone else in the imperium.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:41 No.14401688
    You guys are nigh on bitching about somebody who wants to make his modern-looking miniature toys act a little more modern in a game that is essentially based on the premise of "in the grimderp of lotsa space, anything can and will happen."

    Most people don't give a shit. Have your cake and eat it too, OP. It's your money and you seem to have better sense than a 12 year old. I too, will suggest Elysian. I personally would throw out the helmet myself as a start, perhaps use Cadian Karskin parts for influences as well as bits for your NCOs. Give them a framed backpack and find those cool gasmasks that were all the motif rage in the 90s for Desert Storm.

    If you want a little more than a palette swap, just exercise judgment in what would be too much. I would look to the SoB and Stormtroopers as a reference. The SoB occupy part of that sweetspot between the Guard and the Marines, while the Stormtroopers are sort of what you're looking for (though you can't make them comprise the bulk of your forces, obviously). Go from there, don't overdo it.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:41 No.14401690
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    Stormtroopers and especially Kasrkins feel pretty modern.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:42 No.14401705
    OP, classic metal cadians might be what you're looking for

    the new ones look silly in comparison
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:43 No.14401710
    the admech wouldn't need to use a servitor for something as basic as missile guidance, just use a cogitator.
    They'd only use servitors for anything thats autonomous.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:44 No.14401714
    Just use Spetznatz figures from Assault group. Cheaper then FOrgeworld, look IG ish.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:45 No.14401726
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    I don't know about getting rid of the nozzle, but you could probably modify the helmet to cover the ears to give the helmet a more modern look. For Steel Legion, I mean.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:46 No.14401729
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    Elysians, Tau.

    Tau in particular, I would say. Their use of remote or automated drones strongly mirrors the use of drones by modern militaries such as America. Except, of course, the real life drones are a helluva lot more deadly.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:49 No.14401752
    >Physics don't lie, nothing can stop a round from an Abrams.

    Except, you know, space-majyck. And magical-science.
    And SCIENCE!
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:50 No.14401760
    If we're playin' it that way then the Abrams overcomes the space magic because Rule of Cool.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:51 No.14401773
    or just thick/strong enough armour
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:53 No.14401784
    The Elysian drop troops are very similar to a modern Air Cav doctrine. Get in, hit really, really hard, and get out as soon as possible.

    Since they tend to not have tanks on the board, the Elysians aren't built for a sustained fight, and don't have the staying power to survive heavy return fire. They need to take out the critical targets as soon as they land or they're done.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:55 No.14401793
    I just find Elysian helmets to be ridiculously boxy. You could pack cans in those things.

    Steel Legion heads would be perfect, though. It's like a combination of SF hockey headgear and Fallschirmjager helmets (quite modern looking compared to the Wehrmacht M42 Stahlhelm) with a gasmask that melds the old and the new. Add a molded steel plate on the front, you already have the goggles, you're good for a military that melds standard IG with the recent past and with some more details, the near future.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:55 No.14401801
    >implying rule of cool is on the side of sensible realism
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:56 No.14401805

    Cadian helmets converted like this guy says (or berets, but those can be hard to model), with Cadian arms and torso but with Catachan legs.

    Though they look great, both the Cadian torsos and Catachan leg bits have belts modeled; so you'd have to shave off one or the other. Personally, I like the look of a few of each, with a few of the Cadians' lasguns replaced with ones from other GW models (usually Catachan, but a few other ones here and there may work).

    Some interesting FW bits.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:56 No.14401806
         File1301374602.jpg-(179 KB, 500x375, 100307_photo01.jpg)
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    A modern jeep is cooler then any of the 40k derp vehicle designs.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:58 No.14401816
         File1301374683.jpg-(92 KB, 768x500, predator-uav.jpg)
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    Effective modern killing machines are cool as hell.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:58 No.14401822
    "realistic" armies get ass-raped in 40k fiction though

    >see; anything featuring the Elysians
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:59 No.14401834
         File1301374770.jpg-(40 KB, 640x480, DSC00091.jpg)
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    yeah, he could just use humans but counts as Tau

    Closest thing to a 'modern' looking Leman Russ tank I've found.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)00:59 No.14401838
         File1301374799.jpg-(145 KB, 1200x898, 1271861027299.jpg)
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    Suck it.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:01 No.14401851
    The Elysians get slaughter so often because they are frequently placed in situations that have them fighting against overwhelming odds.

    I can assure you that the Death Korps of Krieg would do no better if they were the ones outnumbered.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:02 No.14401857

    Buddy, I have a nine-foot-tall genetic superman with a tentacle for an arm and a sword made of fire who just turned ten men into technicolour masses of flesh with magic. He refers to himself as a Sorceror of Chaos and when I told him you used the word "physics" like it mattered here, he laughed with the voices of a thousand long-dead men.

    It's Warhammer 40,000. It's literally "It's magic I ain't gotta explain shit" in space.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:03 No.14401866
    thank god the elysians have realistic modern tactics

    oh wait no, that's what got them killed
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:03 No.14401869
    I dunno dude.

    You ever see a Abrams in action? They're pretty fucking awesome.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:04 No.14401873
         File1301375054.jpg-(91 KB, 740x317, bren_mk2_1944_4.jpg)
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    You don't have to explain anything, my Bren Gunner from WW2 will have that unarmoured dumbass dead from 300 yards away inside of five seconds of him appearing from cover.

    Deal with It.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:04 No.14401877

    What gets them killed is that they have very dangerous missions.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:05 No.14401888
    Dangerous missions that they deal with by jumping into the middle of things in a universe where engagements take place near melee range.

    Trenches ain't lookin' so bad now, huh?
    >> That Guy !CrwtTbFNxQ 03/29/11(Tue)01:06 No.14401900
         File1301375172.jpg-(29 KB, 500x425, ElVet1.jpg)
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    Elysian helmets only look like that from the front. They're supposed to resemble pilot helmets with the weird shield thing on the front.
    This is what the helmet looks like from the side. In regards to scale it's actually smaller than Cadian ones.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:06 No.14401902
    No. They don't use modern tactics. AT ALL.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:07 No.14401912
         File1301375277.jpg-(2.39 MB, 2353x1266, A-10_Thunderbolt_II_In-flight-(...).jpg)
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    >Implying it isn't.

    Nigga, what do you have to answer this with? The Sanguinor's golden bat nipples?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:08 No.14401918
         File1301375329.jpg-(44 KB, 640x480, IMG_0598.jpg)
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    Kinda senseless to talk about a modern military vs IG army for a multitude of reasons. One being that the vast majority of militaries are closer to north korea in technology.

    A relatively contemporary world that get's invaded by the Imperium would be a pretty good Rogue Trader/DH campaign though. Bonus points if the Imperial forces are the more backwards type.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:09 No.14401935
         File1301375381.jpg-(106 KB, 800x632, 1268425252598.jpg)
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    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:09 No.14401938
    yeah but a leman russ in action looks the same, except it has more guns, and it can also mount things like plasma guns and lascannons
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:10 No.14401940
    Tau have always struck me as the -most- like "modern" military. They're still more sci-fi than modern, because of the battlesuits (and hover-everything), but a few things still give me the "modern" vibe.
    - Focus on long-range firearms (close combat isn't a part of their warfare).
    - Use of target-designators (markerlights) and called-in support (seeker missiles).
    - Use of unmanned units (drones).
    - Mobile, rather than static, lines of combat (just a fluff thing).

    Not a perfect fit by any means, but certainly a lot less "medieval combat IN SPACE" or "WW1 combat IN SPACE" than a lot of other races.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:11 No.14401947
         File1301375467.jpg-(165 KB, 500x375, obj_vehicle_412084051_c47e1b21(...).jpg)
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    There was an experimental design that Boeing undertook, consisting of two artillery pieces mounted on a CH-47 Chinook helicopter for CAS. Two.

    Also ONTOS
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:12 No.14401961
         File1301375535.jpg-(30 KB, 500x667, DSC01298.jpg)
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    Is that a Krieg lasgun? Could make a nice HBAR weapon

    <--Looks like a Steel Legionnaire with the nozzle taken off. GS some goggles on it, maybe a slightly different helmet shape and it'd be golden
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:12 No.14401965
         File1301375556.jpg-(20 KB, 650x521, Imperial_Navy_Lightning.jpg)
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    One of these'll take more than a few of those out of the air. Then we follow up with our own Thunderbolts and Marauders.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:12 No.14401970
    "Something being cool" has nothing to do with "Rule of Cool". Modern machines operate on actual physics. Rule of Cool is stupid shit like PIERCING THE HEAVENS WITH YOUR DRILL or stylized stuff like lasguns and blasters. [It doesn't make sense, but] it's okay because it's cool.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:13 No.14401979
    He has armor: POWER ARMOR
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:14 No.14401987
    So Airborne units who always fail to land in the designated DZs, the designated DZs are right next to high amounts of AA firepower, and the DZs are next to a forest, a swamp, a local garrison-town, and it's a concrete parking lot. In a Hive. And you're supposed to parachute into it from high altitude.

    Is this about how fucked the Elysians get?
    >> That Guy !CrwtTbFNxQ 03/29/11(Tue)01:15 No.14401992
    That's a Valkyrie pilot head.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:15 No.14401994
         File1301375711.jpg-(424 KB, 1300x879, 1882942.jpg)
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    This will kill your shitty ugly fighter.

    And look amazing doing it.

    So fucking rule of cool.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:15 No.14401997
         File1301375743.jpg-(34 KB, 600x412, Lightning.jpg)
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    >Lightning is 40k's version of an F-15
    Of course it can shoot down an A-10. If you have Skystrikes. Otherwise you'll get AIM-9ed and laughed at.

    The lascannons would work but remember that 40k aircraft are primarily gunfighters. Short range.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:15 No.14401998
    And by the same token, modern stuff is more than a match for it despite all the wank it gets because modern military hardware is even cooler.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:16 No.14402008
    do you even fucking read words or are you too busy jerking off
    >> That Guy !CrwtTbFNxQ 03/29/11(Tue)01:18 No.14402020
    Actually, in the books they usually land alright. It's when the enemy shows up that they start dying in droves.
    Personally I think it's because they often fight enemies that can adapt quickly on an evolutionary level and aren't themselves ready to deal with it. (In the Anphelion Project a single Trygon attacked their airfield and left them without air support)
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:18 No.14402025
         File1301375913.jpg-(29 KB, 450x284, Marauder_Destroyer.jpg)
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    mine works in space too
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:18 No.14402026
         File1301375919.jpg-(277 KB, 1280x664, the weight of my tank.jpg)
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    I always figured that if IG fucking-riveted-tanks could prevail against Tau battlesuits, I can only imagine what the fuck they'd do to a modern MBT.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:18 No.14402028
         File1301375928.jpg-(43 KB, 500x380, 1271303430928.jpg)
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    Sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of awesome coming from modern combat operations.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:19 No.14402031
         File1301375951.jpg-(205 KB, 900x509, obj_m1cattb2.jpg)
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    We just pierced your heavens with mindblowing military technology that looks, works, and acts awesome.

    Deal with it.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:19 No.14402032
         File1301375958.jpg-(54 KB, 800x600, 26114_md-Chimera, Conversi(...).jpg)
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    OP here, would prefer avoiding a 40k vs Earth since there's very little to get a good idea on what most of the IG is like past aesthetics.

    Would it be possible to make a Leman Russ look more modern? I know it has a very high-profile, squat feel to it that can't be changed, but otherwise could it be made to look more modern?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:19 No.14402036
         File1301375983.jpg-(265 KB, 792x1025, jtf2 poster 2.jpg)
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    Haters gonna hate.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:20 No.14402042
         File1301376010.jpg-(63 KB, 1112x1420, F15asat3.jpg)
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    So does mine. What's your point?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:20 No.14402048
    hurp fucking durp
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:21 No.14402056
    The trolls.

    So many trolls.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:22 No.14402062
         File1301376140.jpg-(276 KB, 768x429, SPU-35B-Redut-Sepal-TEL-1S.jpg)
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    What was that? I still can't hear you over the sound of firing missiles larger then anything in 40k.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:22 No.14402065
         File1301376156.jpg-(57 KB, 640x480, P2130145.jpg)
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    OP, if you don't want air, you can still go for a combination of:
    -Mech. Infantry
    >> That Guy !CrwtTbFNxQ 03/29/11(Tue)01:22 No.14402067
    That's an awesome conversion.
    Also, ITT: /k/ vs /tg/
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:23 No.14402069
         File1301376190.jpg-(41 KB, 800x353, 28282_md.jpg)
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    I once saw some surprisingly convincing "modernized" Leman Russ conversions. I think they worked by dropping the sponsons, dropping the hull-mounted weapon, and actually reversing the hull so that the more sloped "engine deck" was the front. Lengthen the gun barrel, put some tread covers on, and you're off to a decent start.

    Oh, wait, found image. Sponsons can be preserved by using Predator ones.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:23 No.14402074
    No the trenches do not look good.

    Especially if you have to the face the same sort of odds the elysians have to face.

    The main problem they have is the lack of heavy support. That's it really.

    Also, them suffering heavy casualties does not mean that they aren't effective in their mission.

    They're kinda like the US Army Rangers in ww2 that way.
    >> wallamazoo !r3NZBcC2gA 03/29/11(Tue)01:24 No.14402084
    ITT: Arguing which force would destroy each other, 40k's Human Armies vs Modern Human Armies, implying that they wouldn't just team up and fight fucking Xenos all day.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:24 No.14402087
         File1301376282.jpg-(126 KB, 700x525, m26e3jwnswexp04_1.jpg)
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    Model it like the Super Pershing. The US has basically recycle the M26 Pershing as its MBT right up until the Abrams was rolling out. The Pershing/Patton maintain a pseudo-modern feel to them (I feel the Super Pershing looks the coolest and most modern for some reason) while having the same tall profile that the Leman Russ tank has.

    Also, this thread is just full of butt-devastated modern wankers. I like my modern aesthetics the most, but give it a fucking rest.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:25 No.14402092
    >team up and fight fucking Xenos all day
    Doubt it; unlike the Imperium, modern earth isn't ruled by neckbeards.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:25 No.14402095
         File1301376356.jpg-(144 KB, 1680x945, u mad.jpg)
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    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:28 No.14402108
    So earth would bend over for the Tau and be used as cannon-fodder by the Eldar?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:28 No.14402109
    the lightning is equivalent in role not capability.
    A lightning would porbably beat even an F-22 in a straight fight, considering that imperial skystrike missiles are capable of hitting targets like Eldar and Tau fighters. While the lighting almost certainly has a agility advantage to go with its speed advantage.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:28 No.14402110
         File1301376486.jpg-(75 KB, 800x600, 25034_md-Conversion, Imper(...).jpg)
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    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:29 No.14402127
    Not a missile. And technically from BFG, not 40k.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:30 No.14402132
    That turret (believe it to be from the Leopard 2) looks so damn out of place there.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:30 No.14402134
    Alliance with the Tau, probably. The Imperium is cool as a fictional entity but we'd never accept subjugation under their rule.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:31 No.14402143
         File1301376671.jpg-(64 KB, 233x246, 1278699214689.jpg)
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    >Not 40k
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:31 No.14402145
         File1301376686.jpg-(70 KB, 800x680, malrconv.jpg)
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    Alternatively you can (if you are wearing money hats) use the Mars-pattern hull from Forgeworld. I'd still reverse the treads, though. Note the dramatically-reduced shot traps on the front of the hull.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:31 No.14402147
    That does look like Big Fish Games to me.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:32 No.14402151
    It's not about whether it's "cooler" or not. It's about cool things being justified as equal because it's cool. Why don't the Tau, with their advanced plasma, just blow the fuck out of the primitive humans? Rule of Cool. Why does humanity survive despite using shitty ww2 tactics against innumerable aliens? Rule of Cool. Why do the Orks...do ANYTHING? Rule of Cool. It doesn't make things BETTER, it makes them BALANCED.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:32 No.14402152
    It really isn't 40k, it is a seperate game.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:32 No.14402156
    >>Death Korps of Krieg

    >>WW1 style tactics, suffer terrible losses.

    >>Elysian Drop-Troopers

    >>WW2/Modern Tactics, suffer terrible losses
    >>OMG Modern warfare suxxors trenches foreva!

    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:33 No.14402161
         File1301376793.jpg-(111 KB, 1024x768, M3A5_Pices_Conversion_by_WordB(...).jpg)
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    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:33 No.14402162
         File1301376804.jpg-(62 KB, 800x680, Van4.jpg)
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    With a Vanquisher turret strapped on, you can see that we're getting somewhere halfway-decent.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:34 No.14402168
         File1301376868.jpg-(59 KB, 800x680, Vanpaint3.jpg)
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    Looks more battle-worthy than a Sherman, anyway.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:34 No.14402170
    >Honestly, it's part of the risk the Airborne take.
    The "Airborne" haven't had a combat drop since Market Garden, bub. These days 82nd and 173rd are just a billet for Ranger/18x scrubs...
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:35 No.14402175
    Because trenches make no pretensions about being superior and more sensible when they get the same results?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:35 No.14402178
    oh look its an alternate pattern Deathstrike missile launcher.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:35 No.14402180
    >Gothic doesn't take place in 40k because it isn't called 40k
    >derp durp derp
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:35 No.14402184
         File1301376944.jpg-(78 KB, 800x680, Van7.jpg)
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    Damned sight less pants-on-head retarded than the usual Leman Russ. Can we all agree on that?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:36 No.14402193
    Butthurt much?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:37 No.14402205
    Cadian heads are def. better than Steel Legion for 'modern'. They'd look weird on Elysium bodies though.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:38 No.14402210
    "Battlefleet Gothic is a tabletop miniatures game based in Games Workshop's fictional Warhammer 40000 universe"
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:38 No.14402211
         File1301377112.jpg-(70 KB, 689x440, obj_kit_v47789_2il0ur.jpg)
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    So it's a Bridge too Far all the time.

    Honestly, it's part of the risk the Airborne take. In real life, their entire role is an educated risk designed to take and hold a position without resupply for days to weeks on end so the enemy gets denied its use. Once tanks come on the scene, it just becomes a clusterfuck quite quickly without light enough weapons.

    Combine it with the grimderp of bad commanders thinking in the meatgrinder mentality for no real reason, any risk backfires quickly unless you've got plot armor, heavy equipment that does less (as opposed to heavier equipment that acts as a flashlight), and men shaped tanks everywhere, and it's a wonder why the IG finds survivors.

    Then again, the novels do require people to focus on specific events of galaxy shattering proportions. You have to wonder how many 'normal' operations play out inbetween these major excursions and intrigues.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:38 No.14402215
    Based off of.

    Not the same.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:38 No.14402217
         File1301377124.jpg-(43 KB, 800x341, large.jpg)
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    Forgot pic
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:39 No.14402228
    >On March 26, 2003 the U.S. 173rd Airborne Brigade conducted a combat jump into Northern Iraq, during the 2003 invasion of Iraq, to seize an airfield and support special forces: Task Force Viking. The paratroopers departed from Aviano Air Base, Italy.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:39 No.14402230
    >The US has basically recycle the M26 Pershing as its MBT right up until the Abrams was rolling out.

    >Recycled Pershings.

    Um. No.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:40 No.14402231
    based IN, you illiterate monkey
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:41 No.14402243
    its the same setting though
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:41 No.14402245
    It clearly says "based in." Let's just forget the fact that the entire game is set in the Gothic War of the 40k mythos. You made a dumb statement. Stop trying to defend it.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:41 No.14402246
    What's your point dumbass?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:42 No.14402254
    A more static force like the Death Korps fulfills a certain necessary role on the battlefield.

    The Drop Troopers fulfill a different but still necessary role on the battlefield.

    They both suffer terrible losses but they accomplish their objectives all the same.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:43 No.14402257
    >> Alpharius 03/29/11(Tue)01:43 No.14402262
    That is an ugly barrel, a Vanq barrel would have been better.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:43 No.14402264
         File1301377413.jpg-(38 KB, 600x377, k2_black_panther_mbt.jpg)
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    I'll take 40k seriously when... Well never, since 40k is boring as fuck compared to modern battle systems.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:43 No.14402265
    Ok fine, continuously upgraded/built upon the Pershing's design.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:44 No.14402271
    That a Vanquisher with a Mars hull?

    This a vanilla one?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:45 No.14402277
    Airborne troops are still trained for paradrop operations. HAHO by gravchute is still a part of the Elysian's repetoire. That's their shtick. How does the fact that nobody's done a division-scale combat drop via parachute since WWII affect any part of what I'm saying?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:45 No.14402282
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:46 No.14402290
    oh good, your treating 40k correctly then
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:46 No.14402295
    Those are all Forgeworld Mars-pattern hulls topped off with the Forgeworld modified Ryza-pattern Vanquisher turret. Put some track guards on, maybe some Predator sponsons, and you've got something pretty convincing, no?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:47 No.14402300
         File1301377659.jpg-(36 KB, 800x322, large2.jpg)
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    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:48 No.14402302
         File1301377681.jpg-(86 KB, 743x431, obj_v45650_t-90m(1)_munich2.jpg)
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    God damn you Koreans and your stupid sexy tank.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:54 No.14402364
         File1301378081.jpg-(13 KB, 480x360, Fuck, I'm high.jpg)
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    K2-BP looks like a Abrams and T-90 had a lovechild, looks surprisingly good.

    >captcha - Mossbauer

    If I ever designed a tank, I'm gonna name it this.
    >> Marooder 03/29/11(Tue)01:56 No.14402376
    god damn, I loves me some blockey tanks
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:59 No.14402405
         File1301378341.jpg-(209 KB, 1280x960, v47880_T-95 beast.jpg)
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    Get ready, something about the Russians becoming interested in heavy tanks again.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)01:59 No.14402406
         File1301378346.jpg-(29 KB, 501x529, Timber Wolf.jpg)
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    Hi just dropped in via orbit cause I heard someone needed their modern military wank crushed. Where's dem abrams.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:01 No.14402420
         File1301378460.jpg-(32 KB, 400x300, obj_vehicle_1258755710_image_5(...).jpg)
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    I see it more as a three-way between the Leopard, Abrams, and the T-90.

    No matter what it was the lovechild of, it still blows me away.

    On an aside, I also love the look of this little munchkin.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:01 No.14402422
         File1301378475.jpg-(193 KB, 1600x1200, 1285284090407.jpg)
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    best post in the thread.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:02 No.14402432
         File1301378556.png-(328 KB, 912x675, obj_vehicle_mech_CnC_CNC4_Tita(...).png)
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    No Timberwolf, you are the Abrams.

    And then the Timberwolf was a Titan.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:02 No.14402434
    Range of a Madcat's Weapons: 900 meters.

    Range of an Abrams: 4000+ meters.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:02 No.14402435
    >three-way between the Leopard, Abrams, and the T-90

    Now I want to see mecha-musumes of the Leopard, Abrams, and T-90 having a threesome.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:02 No.14402437
         File1301378569.jpg-(18 KB, 500x317, is3_1.jpg)
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    The IS-3 has to be one of my all-time favourite tanks as far as aesthetics are concerned. Look at those beautiful lines. The fact that they were considered legitimate battlefield threats for a good twenty years is just icing on the cake.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:04 No.14402447
    That's not a T-95, it's a 2S19, you can tell from the shape.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:04 No.14402455
         File1301378686.jpg-(97 KB, 1125x847, obj_vehicle_1281894665008.jpg)
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    Please. I already needed a change of trousers twice today.

    Also who the fuck said real life couldn't rule of cool.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:06 No.14402468
         File1301378778.jpg-(246 KB, 1600x1200, ISU-152_model_1945.jpg)
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    I would've been fucking terrified if I was a German or NATO tanker and needed to face an IS-3 in direct combat.

    Something about the IS-3's "prow" and "soup bowl" turret being ingeniously sloped so that they can shrug off the crazy powerful German guns like 8.8cm and such. Not sure how 100mm - 110mm sloped like the IS-3's translates to, 200mm or 250mm worth of armor thickness?

    Pic marginally related, tank destroy (ISU-152 1945) based on the IS-3's chassis and suspension.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:06 No.14402471
         File1301378815.jpg-(1.52 MB, 2043x1360, obj_vehicle_1283872343261.jpg)
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    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:08 No.14402483

    implying I don't have SPACE superiority and can/will drop right on your head.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:08 No.14402484
    A bullet travels straight. You slope armour, it now has mroe armour to travel through on it's flight path.

    And yeah, the D25T on the IS3 was a scary motherfucking weapon. It was known to kill Tiger crews from sheer concussion alone.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:09 No.14402487
    Didn't help they were built to combat the Tiger 2 and Panther. It was just a shame they made it to the front line in time for the parade through Berlin.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:09 No.14402488
         File1301378958.jpg-(24 KB, 424x285, v47878_1300401465889.jpg)
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    OPchan (please don't lynch me, I only lurk there) had it labeled as a T-95.

    Another pic, not really clear though.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:11 No.14402502
    The west had nothing of the IS3's capability for about ten years, at which point it was being phased out for the T-55, which was, again, a superior tank design.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:13 No.14402525
    It's too bad that the round was fucking massive and slow to fire.

    I wouldn't lie, though, two rounds a minute is still two rounds on a battlefield. I wouldn't go near that thing without a radio, another radio, and a guarantee it wasn't supported by anything. That thing's like an Atlas, that's how much battlefield presence it has.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:13 No.14402527
    Always thought that least a King Tiger's crew could manage through getting hit by a 122mm's HE round, but I'd imagine that least the hull of a Tiger I or Panther would at least be salvageable.

    I'm just waiting when someone decides to try and make a high-velocity 152mm and mount it on an MBT.

    "Enemi-armor? Vhats dat?"
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:14 No.14402536
    Spalling. Spalling fucking EVERYWHERE.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:15 No.14402546
    IS2 and IS3 fire rate was 6 rounds a minute.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:15 No.14402547
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    I don't think anyone here has a problem with Opchan.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:17 No.14402564
    Didn't even need to do that. They found a Tiger crew with broken ribs, exploded eyeballs and eardrums, and collapsed lungs. The pressure wave from the deforming armour on the front of their tank from the 122mm round basically converted their bodies to mush.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:17 No.14402565
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    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:17 No.14402567
    I'm not disagreeing with you. The IS-3 was fuck-awesome, and had the Brits and US going back to the drawing board at the end of WW2. It's still just a shame that the IS-3 didn't make it into battle during WW2. It would have seriously fucked up some Tiger2s... all 400 or so that were made, that is...
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:17 No.14402571
    You sure? The IS-3 has an even /more/ cramped turret than the IS-2 does.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:18 No.14402574
         File1301379520.jpg-(2.07 MB, 2592x1944, Isu152_Kubinka.jpg)
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    You rang?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:19 No.14402577
    >high-velocity 152mm
    I believe the Germans have done some testing with a 152mm cannon on the Leopard II, but - surprise surprise - nothing has come of it yet. With the utility of heavy armour on the battlefield in question and most forseeable future actions being infantry-centric, why bother sinking all that R&D money into it?

    The D25T cannon was basically a straight translation of the Soviet 12mm A-19 field gun into a tank cannon. Its ammunition was two-piece, requiring seperate charge loads, and this is what slowed its rate of fire down. Most of what I've heard pegged the RoF around 2 - 3 shots a minute for this reason.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:20 No.14402584
    IIRC, the ISU-122 could penetrate armor better...? Regardless, both were awesome. But the SU-100 was a better tank-killer.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:20 No.14402586
    Part of the reason why IEDs are fucking terrifying is because they literally vibrate your body apart at the seams and your brain within your skull. Of course, what a lot of IEDs are... are Artillery shells. 155mm is a common example.

    Now apply that to a metal tank~
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:21 No.14402590
    >12mm A-19
    Make that 122mm A-19. God damnit, now I'm thinking of Blitzkrieg. I fucking loved my A-19s in that.
    >> gorramit, Mal! 03/29/11(Tue)02:21 No.14402593

    that, is one sweet Russ vanquisher, No ?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:21 No.14402595
    My understanding though was that a good crew, with a very experienced loader, could push that ROF up to around 5-6 a minute.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:22 No.14402601
    Breech door open, first round in, propellant in, door close. A good crew could do that in about 10 seconds on the IS3, since it had an auto breech. The only real slowdown was the two stage munitions. But from a loading standpoint, it's not too bad, since it's less weight per lift the loader has to do.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:23 No.14402611
    If true, that would put the IS-3 up from high-rape-tier to industrial-grade-super-rape-tier.

    Shame that you'd then burn through your ammo in about five minutes of sustained firing.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:23 No.14402618
    The ISU-152 did get an armor piercing round for its 152mm gun, but the HE was just as effective as it would simply blow off the turret and spall the fuck out of enemy tanks as well as being significantly much more effective at break bunkers and shocking infantry.

    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:24 No.14402619
    OP should NOT waste his money on faggish games like Infinity.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:24 No.14402621
    The 152mm just blew the ever loving shit out what it hit. Didn't need to penetrate. The 100mm on the SU-100 could blow through steel like a knife through butter, equalling and in many cases exceeding the 8.8 51. But for sheer "Level that Building Sergei" russianess, nothing beat 'the Beast Killer' 152.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:27 No.14402635
    With the way that the SU-152 and ISU-152 made Panzer crews paranoid, I'm surprised that the Beast Killers are not as well known as the Sherman, T-34, or Tiger I. Hell, I don't think most people even knew the Soviets had stuff like the IS-2 or KV-2.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:27 No.14402636
    Can't argue with that.

    I'll be keeping an eye on that sort of thing for future reference though.

    And by auto-breech, you mean... what, exactly? The breech automatically opens once firing is complete?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:29 No.14402648
    German Field Tankers Handbook

    "Do not engage Soviet IS tanks or mobile guns alone."

    The Germans HATED the fucking IS series. They never got over the fear that the original KV-1 generated among their ranks.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:30 No.14402653
    No... they don't.

    Hell, most Americans don't even hear jack-shit about the Eastern Front, let alone WHY the Germans developed tanks such as the Tiger or Panther. The US public school system blows ass. The extent of WW2 that was taught, was basically "We got into the war due to Pearl Harbor, and ended it with the A-Bomb."

    Thanks for nothing, shitty public school system.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:31 No.14402661
    "Enormously rapetastic vehicles of strikingly superior design" doesn't fit the standard Western narrative of the Ostfront being HARD-FIGHTING-BUT-DOOMED ELITE GERMANS versus SWARMS OF CONSCRIPT SLAVS.

    Oh, sure, you'll get people to admit that the T-34 was a superior design, but it's always caveated by "well, the crews were terrible" or "their tactics were garbage" or "yeah but then TIGERS PEW PEW PEW KABOOOOOOOM" (all true, admittedly).

    Consideing how enormously ohfuckohfuckohfuck the Limeys, the Yanks, the Canucks, etc. commonly were about a single Tiger appearing on the field, and the entire "lolslavshit" mantra...shouldn't be too surprising that "1944 Russians laugh at Tiger; call up one of many heavy anti-tank vehicles they have at their disposal" dialogues wouldn't be common currency.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:31 No.14402663
    When firing the block opens and closes automatically, leaving to the loader only to put a round into the receiver.

    Same system was used on some Russian anti-tank guns, and a skilled crew could get to 25 RPM on them. Which is fucking insane.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:34 No.14402677
    To be fair... much of the 'conscript slave' Russian stigma came from early war. Once Russia started taking back ground, they had a solid army of modestly trained soldiers. By then, their tank-crews were actually good. Not German-veteran good... but they were good.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:34 No.14402682
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    Stories about the KV are fucking hilarious, they're right atop there with the Tiger I when it comes to dealing the hurt and instilling chaos amongst ranks. Random and isolated KV-1 wondering into a village looking for supplies usually ends with Germans wondering just what the fuck happened to half of their field guns and armor before the KV is finally knocked out.

    Had the Soviets had better tactical prowess and been prepared for the German blitz, can't imagine how it'd be with Soviets aggressively pushing out the US and Britain of Europe.

    Here, have a +60 tone IS-3 with 160mm to 170mm worth of sloped armor and armed with a fucking 130mm naval gun. At around 40-50 km/h estimated speed, the IS-7 was supposed to be the new IS-2 and meant to break through Allied lines if the need ever arose.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:36 No.14402689
    Alright. Sounds similar to what the Panther had, though theirs was more semi-automatic along the lines of it shoved the casing out for you once done firing. Not sure if it automatically closed the breech once you shoved a shell back in.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:36 No.14402692
    The Russian Guards units had tankers equal to any veteran german tanker.

    The big difference was the german sterescopic rangefinders, allowing them to put a round on target faster then the soviets, who were still firing over ironsights (as were most of the allies)

    Had the 34-85 and IS2 had the same german optics as the Tiger... I leave you to think about the chances of a Tiger at range vs a swarm of 6 T-34s.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:36 No.14402693
    Why on earth are you going on and on about the tiger for?

    You should be making smart cracks about the Panther VS the Sherman if you want to slag off on the western allies.

    There weren't anywhere near enough Tigers for them to be a serious problem.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:37 No.14402703
    Huh. Looks like doomguy
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:38 No.14402705
    Germany's reaction to the KV was fucking hilarious... Up until then, they hadn't even really thought about building big tanks. Then they storm Russia and come across these building-sized monsters. Their reaction was "WTF is that thing!? Is that a building moving towards us!?"
    >> wallamazoo !r3NZBcC2gA 03/29/11(Tue)02:38 No.14402706
    that almost looks like the Grizzly Battle Tank from Red Alert 2.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:38 No.14402707
    KV1 Rape Story Time!

    On August 14, 1941, the vanguard of the German 8th Panzer Division approached Krasnogvardeysk (Gatchina) near Leningrad (St Petersburg), and the only Soviet force available at the time to attempt to stop the German advance consisted of five well-hidden KV-1 tanks, dug in within a grove at the edge of a swamp. KV-1 tank no. 864 was commanded by the leader of this small force, Lieutenant Zinoviy Kolobanov.

    German forces attacked Krasnogvardeysk from three directions. Near Noviy Uchkhoz settlement the geography favoured the Soviet defenders as the only road in the region passed the swamp, and the defenders commanded this choke point from their hidden position. Lieutenant Kolobanov had carefully studied the situation and readied his detachment the day before. Each KV-1 tank carried twice the normal amount of ammunition, two-thirds being armour-piercing rounds. Kolobanov ordered his other commanders to hold their fire and await orders. He did not want to reveal the total force, so only one exposed tank at a time would engage the enemy.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:38 No.14402708
    Won't see me disputing that point. I'm one of the people who argues that the '44 STAVKA was out-generaling the Germans on the operational level LIKE A BOSS, with tactical inferiority very much being ameliorated by "well, okay, sure, we lost there, but we broke through everywhere else along the front and penetrated some forty klicks today while completely smashing hostile command & control to pieces, so who the hell cares and we'll mop it up later".

    The Soviets wouldn't have survived multiple years of war if they kept being profligate, skill-less chucklecunts. you either learn and adapt or you get savagely hatchet-fucked.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:38 No.14402711
    On August 14, the German 8th Panzer Division's vanguard ventured directly into the well-prepared Soviet ambush, with Kolobanov's tank knocking out the lead German tank with its first shot. The Germans falsely assumed that their lead tank had hit an anti-tank mine, and failed to realize that they had been ambushed. The German column stopped, giving Kolobanov the opportunity to destroy the second tank. Only then did the Germans realize they were under attack, but they failed to find the source of the shots. While the German tanks were firing blindly, Kolobanov knocked out the trailing German tank, thus boxing in the entire column.

    Although the Germans correctly guessed the direction of fire, they could only spot Lieutenant Kolobanov's tank, and now attempted to engage an unseen enemy. German tanks moving off the road bogged down in the surrounding soft ground, becoming easy targets. 22 German tanks and 2 towed artillery pieces fell victim to Kolobanov's No. 864 before it ran out of ammunition. Kolobanov ordered in another KV-1, and 21 more German tanks were destroyed before the half-hour battle ended. A total of 43 German tanks were destroyed by just five Soviet KV-1s (two more remained in reserve).
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:39 No.14402714
    >>can't imagine how it'd be with Soviets aggressively pushing out the US and Britain of Europe.
    This wasn't going to happen. Seriously, the soviets suffered terrible casualties in eastern europe and they were in no shape for another massive military conflict.

    You're also forgetting the massive amounts of manpower the US had.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:41 No.14402725
    No... you misunderstand me.

    The Red Army as a whole definitely became better, but still weren't up to the level of German tankers.

    The Guards however... that's an ENTIRELY different matter. The Guards tank battalions were made of Rape and Win.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:41 No.14402726
    The one lesson the West never learned is that the Russians do learn from their mistakes. And they learn quickly.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:42 No.14402734
    Sage for /k/shit and general soviet dicksucking in what used to be a /tg/ related.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:43 No.14402740
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    Just kinda irks me that almost everyone wants to perpetuate the image that the Soviets were only capable of doing human attack waves and other idiotic shit. Also sad to see when people really did think that the Russians were poorly equipped in big battles like Stalingrad.

    Also, more IS-7.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:44 No.14402748
    Yeah, because a discussion evolving throughout 300 posts isn't what /tg/ is about.


    Anyways, back on topic, what I find surprising is that the germans were surprised by the KV1. They knew about it, they fuicking trained with the Russians prior to invading. They had to know the rolling apartment blocks existed.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:45 No.14402753
    I think going IG over IG counts as Tau is better. Partly because Tau need a new 'dex badly.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:45 No.14402754
    You can blame the Winter War for that.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:46 No.14402759
    >They had to know the rolling apartment blocks existed.

    I lol'd more than I should.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:47 No.14402762
    To that, I'd have to suggest what sells warbonds better to people back home. The USSR is completely war mobilized and has shitegobs of AT support, or they're poor bastards who got shoved into a war that they weren't well-prepared for to begin with?

    Plus, you can't blame Americans for having few clues about what exactly happened over there when people were mostly focused on their own boys fighting and dying, and the media blackout that the USSR then pulled back up once the war was over.

    And yes, the Cold War paranoia afterwards probably had a lot to do with the attention Soviet exploits got after the war. They weren't giving the West the time of day for the most part, why should we needlessly point out how good their tanks were during the war in public discourse?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:48 No.14402767
    Inside a Pz III

    "Ja Hans, it is movink!"
    "Mein Gott, it is HUGE!"
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:49 No.14402774
    >Is there a canon IG that's closer to a modern, 1st world army in aesthetics and tactics?

    You mean Mechguard?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:50 No.14402778
    If I remember correctly, the Germans were even shown some factories that were assembling KV-1s during the 1939 honeymoon. But such did not gel with their conception of reality, so clearly it could not be true. The few who said "uhh, guys, this could be a problem" were told to look at the Winter War and much
    ensued - although nobody seemed to pay attention to the final phase of the Winter War, in which the STAVKA wiped the blood off its face, spat out its broken teeth, and proceeded to wage a much more competent operation that tore through the Mannerheim Line in short order.

    Wishful thinking is amazing.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:50 No.14402784
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    No idea what he used for helmets, but it looks awesome.

    Semi-related, which would better emulate an OPERATOR/modern IG army? Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:50 No.14402785
    Ehh i dunno.

    With the exception of the 70s, Nato and the Warsaw Pact were quite evenly matched in terms of their equipment.

    You're also being a bit too much of a fanboy for a tank concept the Soviets were perfectly happy to get rid of.

    The IS3 was a bad idea for the same reason the king tiger was a bad idea.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:50 No.14402786
         File1301381455.jpg-(134 KB, 800x739, 1175195546_qqqqqqq.jpg)
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    Probably one of my favourite IS2 photos.

    It is breaking tank traps.

    This is an IS-2, literally rolling over the very defenses designed to stop it.

    IS-2 does not give a fuck.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:51 No.14402795
    I want to caption that picture with "And not a single fuck was given that day". So badly.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:51 No.14402799
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    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:52 No.14402803
    The IS-2/3 series were actually medium weight tanks compared to their German cousins.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:53 No.14402811
    Uhh the soviets may have been mobilized and well-equipped, but they had terrible casualties for all their offensives until bagration. Even Kursk had them suffering more dead then the axis forces they were facing.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:53 No.14402812
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:53 No.14402814
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    Hot Damn.

    Well, it was a breakthrough tank.

    Dat Gun.
    >> Enigma !!zGXY1oMKBZK 03/29/11(Tue)02:54 No.14402816
    I just stumbled upon this russian wank going on at the bottom of this thread. And I wanted to say yes the T34 and KV1 caught the Wehrmacht off guard. but neither had good radios, both had shitty main armaments, the KV-! was dropped entirely around 44 IIRC. The T34 also had a horribly cramped 2 man turret.

    As far as Tigers go though, records show that German Heavy Tank units averaged a 5.74 kill to loss ration in tank V tank combat during the war. Accounting for almost 10,000 allied tank kills. This ratio though isnt indicative to Tiger losses as it includes all tanks abandoned and blown up by their own crews and also tanks sent back to the factory for extensive repairs. The actual figures on tiger losses are higher than the amount manufactured for this reason.

    The Tiger was an excellent tank once the kinks were worked out. And its combat record is proof of this.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:54 No.14402819
    I thought RT was better for a war-themed RPG in the 40kverse?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:55 No.14402824
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    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:55 No.14402830
    Well, sure, if you wanted to be a general leading whole armies and coordinating the sieges of entire worlds. But if you want to be a poor bloody bastard down in the blood and the shit and the mud and the viscera, Dark Heresy'll do it better.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:56 No.14402831
    It's called a phyrric victory. You tend not to remember that Phyrrus won against the Romans either. You remember the kicking the Romans gave him.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:56 No.14402835
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    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:57 No.14402838
    No we hear about the eastern front.

    We also hear about how the soldiers were essentially untrained cannon fodder. We hear about how they were so under supplied that if it weren't for the supplies from the allied countries then the Russians wouldn't have been able to properly mobilize their military. We learned that the average russian soldier was simply a civilian handed a gun and told to go to the front (assuming there were guns available.) We also learned that they followed the idea of "we shall bury them under the weight of our dead" which is why the Russian casualties are so ridiculously high. The russians had antiquated technology and transportation equipment at the beginning of WW2 (just like WW1) which led to their incredibly high level of casualties.

    Which is why I don't understand why people always bring up casualties when trying to prove how much the russians did. The russians had untrained, undersupplied soldiers and this is the main reason that they suffered such ridiculous casualties.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:57 No.14402839
    I'm not going to go too much in depth here just yet, but I will point out that part of the reason why the T-34/85 revision of '43 was such a big deal is precisely because it allowed for a third person in the turret.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:58 No.14402849

    The Germans simply couldn't handle fighting the three strongest empires on earth at the same time. Thus they lost.

    It doesn't help that their ideology did such a fine job on alienating everyone else on the fucking planet.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:58 No.14402850
    The 76 Pack Bang was a great weapon in the early war, nothing wrong with it. it was phased out by the 85, 122, and 100 as the war progressed. I don't think at anypoint in the conflict were the soviet ground forces lacking in firepower. Most of their defieciencies were command and control, as well as troop training.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)02:58 No.14402851
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    It was only an excellent tank because no one really bothered to make a direct response to it. If the US and Soviets had actually gone through with fielding the Pershing, IS-3, T-44, or such against the Tiger I, no one would have known what the Tiger I.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:01 No.14402862
    Hell the US could have just made more jumbo shermans with 76mm guns and HVAP rounds and they would have had a tiger equivalent
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:02 No.14402867
    And the purges.

    They did fight against France, which had a decent number of nicely armored tanks for the early war period (Char B1, S35, Char D1). Obviously not as big, but I could argue that the General staff knew about them, but thought that superior operational craft (and Stukas) would again carry them through the day. And for the first few months of Barbarossa, it probably looked like they were going to completely bypass Napoleon's Father Winter troubles with a bit of luck and some wishmaking.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:03 No.14402874
    People have this tendency to view warfare as casualty contest.

    That really doesn't tell all or even most of the story.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:03 No.14402875
    The Tiger was a horrible tank for one very important reason.

    It could kill five tanks for every loss. But the Russians made ten tanks for every 1 German tank, and that was early/mid war.

    The Tiger couldn't be produced quickly, Russian factories had a tank rolling off the rack every 7 minutes.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:04 No.14402883
         File1301382266.jpg-(59 KB, 800x600, 94596_md-Imperial Guard, W(...).jpg)
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    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:05 No.14402889
         File1301382339.jpg-(941 KB, 2592x1944, Bovington_102_Somua_S35_1.jpg)
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    The SOMUA S35 is so cute. Solid (for the time) 47mm gun, cast armour of decent thickness & layout, topped off by a reasonably good turn of speed. I have a certain fondness for it in my heart that I blame on my World War II Online days.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:06 No.14402891
    This right here.

    While the Germans built tons of new tank designs, the Russians made like two tanks. You had the T-34 chassis, and the KV Chassis. Each was modified and became a 'different' vehicle, but it was essentially only two tanks in the entire Red Army. That made them cheap, and any factory could make the damn things.

    I shudder to think of the Germans just mass producing PZ IVHs or something siimilar.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:07 No.14402898
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    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:07 No.14402902
    What a horrible, horrible thread.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:08 No.14402907
    Guderian during his late-war stint as Director of Panzer Operations (or whatever his formal title was) tried to hammer out nonstop mass production of Panthers and a few select assault guns (Hetzer! SO CUTE!), but even if he had gotten his way it was too late by that point.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:08 No.14402908
    True Story, I was in the Ukraine, and driving along, I look over and see a tank in a field. I stop, and get out.

    It is an old T-34, pulling agricultural equipment (plough)

    The farmer's dad fought in the war, and was given the tank (he needed a tractor) in the 60s or so. Still works today.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:10 No.14402915
    And my point was that "our Allies are in a great plight that plagues the world, we must help them" sells somewhat better than "our Ally on the other side is outproducing the tar out of the Main Adversary with tanks that effectively compete with them." My point is that keeping the country's war-face on was at greater stake than pointing out that our Soviet ally was demonstrating how good its tanks were.

    And what the fuck does 'bagration' mean?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:10 No.14402919
    Fuck you, the Beast Killer thing was awesome. I have a friend who always says that penetration is what makes a tank good, now I know better.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:10 No.14402920
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    Guess you could say that the IS tank is a development from the KV. KV-85 was a stop gap development, essentially being a lighter KV with a turret that would essentially become the IS's turret. The IS itself looks like a KV and T-34 had a love child.

    Shit, KV mecha musume mounting a loli T-34. I need to fucking fap now.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:10 No.14402921
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    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:12 No.14402933
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    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:14 No.14402941
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    Operation Bagration was the great 1944 Soviet counteroffensive that completely & nigh-fatally eviscerated Axis forces in the east. It was named after some Russian aristo who bit it at the Battle of Borodino.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:14 No.14402943
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    >> Enigma !!zGXY1oMKBZK 03/29/11(Tue)03:14 No.14402944
    Which is why in January 1943 the German High Command initiated the TIger 2 project to maintain German superiority past 1944 in heavy tank designs. . The King tiger was an absolute monster that could take any allied tank. Its front armour was never penetrated in combat also. Its PaK 43 was more than capable of defeating any allied tank outside of their effective range as well, Including the IS series of tanks. Whose 122mm gun with separate loaded charge and ammunition was pants on head retarded with a woefully slow rate of fire. Hell German army record show that the shells fired by the gun couldnt even puncture the Panthers sloped frontal armour if it hit at anything other than dead on. Any deflection would result in it failing to penetrate the plate yo. Also the IS series and M26 were direct results of the Tiger, Direct counters for the generation of German armour that came out in 1942 bro. The M26 didnt even hit Europe till after the Americans had gotten their asses chewed up in the battle of the bulge. The Tiger by then had alread built its enduring legacy.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:15 No.14402950
    You know, just in general, that seems like a really intimidating tank design. The T-34 has a sort of brutal efficient design aesthetic. That just looks like it's going to hurt like a mother when it hits you.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:18 No.14402965
    And it did, too. 122mm field artillery rounds havent brakes.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:19 No.14402969
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    The only problem with your analysis is that the King Tiger was taken out from the front, and beyond that, the Russian shells didn't have to penetrate to be effective. If they hit the target, the big HE round would stun, if not outright kill the unfortunate people inside.

    The range thing is very true though, that L71 was a beautiful piece of weaponeering.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:20 No.14402978
    Thing is, the IS wasn't an actual direct response to either the Tiger I or Tiger II, non-broham. The D25T series on the IS doesn't need to penetrate the Tiger I or Panther's armor to fuck it up, the immense spalling caused by its immense HE power was more than enough. And the Germans should count their stars that the US generals were too fucking stubborn to field their own heavy tanks against the Tigers. M26 with 90mm T15E1 would have torn up Tigers left and right.

    Those aren't T-34s or T-34-85s, those are IS tanks.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:24 No.14402987
    I know they are IS tanks. The T-34 looks 'sleek' the IS just looks mean was my point.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:25 No.14402993
    Yet they had faulty transmissions and were never produced in numbers large enough to have direct outcome on the war. Unfortunately, the best gun is good enough to win wars. Those are won by a variety of factors, and not which guy has the best soldiers and equipment.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:26 No.14402996

    Sound that the Germans made when this thing started climbing that 1 in 30 hill...
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:31 No.14403019
    Let's not forget either that the IS-2 was a breakthrough tank, designed to smash defences aside, be they tank or fixed.

    As a German put it on the history channel "While the Tigers had a gun that could go through six concrete walls of a building, the Soviets gun would hit the first wall, explode, and drop the building."
    >> Enigma !!zGXY1oMKBZK 03/29/11(Tue)03:31 No.14403021
    See the Problemb with that is there isnt any datathat its frontal armour was ever compromised in such a way. Tiger armour was, due to its very nature of quality resistant to such abuse. Even to the end of the war. Contemporary British analysis that started in Tunisia found that the armour of the tiger was roughly 13% more effect than the armour on British tanks. Meaning the 80mm side armour was equal to almost 93 mm. This coupled with its construction of interlocking welded plates allowed the tanks to withstand horrible damage and preserve the bad ass dudes inside. Im not saying the IS and its 122 mm gun weren't an awesome combination, Im just saying as far as tanks of the period went, in terms of construction, combat effectiveness, armament, armour, craftsmanship and crews. The Tiger was a cut above the rest. Although thats also why they never made more that 1900 or so of them they were a terrible resource sink
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:35 No.14403034
    Except it wasn't. There's already a photo in this thread of a penetration hit on a Tiger II, and I can find more with a quick search.

    German steel production was actually quite poor past 1942, and it showed in their armour. German manufacturers also tested their armour unfairly (well, for analysis) vs western counteparts.

    The Tiger II was still VERY well armoured, but it was not impregnable, they still died in droves to both the Soviet and Allied guns.
    >> Enigma !!zGXY1oMKBZK 03/29/11(Tue)03:41 No.14403067
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    Theres one with penetration on the side of a tiger one turret, but thats not really a frontal penetration of a tiger two glacias plate now is it?
    Also:The rolled homogeneous nickel-steel plate, electro-welded interlocking-plate construction armor had a Brinell hardness index of around 255-280 (the best homogeneous armor hardness level for the corresponding thickness level of the Tiger's armor, by WW II standards), and rigorous quality control procedures ensured that it stayed that way. About this issue, and according to Thomas L. Jentz, "there is no proof that substandard german armour plate was used during the last years of the war. All original documents confirm compliance with standard specifications throughout the war" (JENTZ, Thomas L. Germany's TIGER Tanks, VK45.02 to Tiger II: Design, Production & Modifications).
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:48 No.14403103
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    It is really damn cute.

    On another note, Western policy was that tanks were not supposed to go tank-on-tank. That was supposed to be handled by other elements. The French were something of an odd man out by having the much heavier tanks, while Britain and the United States dealt with things in the terms of infantry support (Britain), cruiser (cavalry) tanks, and Tank destroyers. Leave the funny people with their heavy tanks get outmaneuvered by the shoot-n-scoots or CAS while the bulk of your tank forces blow the tar out of the defensive positions erected in a combined arms effort.

    In the context of this, Shermans were perfectly adequate in their role as cavalry for the new age. Furthermore, they were considered the equal of the Pz IV design, and America had done quite well at producing a fuckton of them for a country that was more interested in becoming the Arsenal of Democracy (America got 20,000 Shermans, Britain 17,000, Russia 4,000) than outputting extreme numbers of armored divisions for only themselves.

    The Sherman played a modified version of the oldschool Blitzkrieg game, the one in 1940s France. But by the time it was fielded it was 1942, Germany had already taken its lessons from an enemy who had mass produced tanks with a take-all-comers edge, and who already were adjusting accordingly. By the time the Americans were on the mainland in actually decent tank driving terrain, it was halfway through 1944 (Italy is shit for tanks. Mountains and hills everywhere all the way up the boot). It wasn't bad at what it did, it's just that the war had already eclipsed their use, and there was resistance to 'needlessly' change combat doctrine. People still thought they could get away with this tank destroyer doctrine for the War.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:51 No.14403113

    Should've known that, to be honest.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)03:52 No.14403124
    The idea of a Tank Destroyer is hardly bad either. It's not like they had decades of experience with tanks to draw upon. It's easy to blame them for not having the foresight, but we forget that we've got the hindsight of a more omniscient perspective and decades of military history to look upon.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)04:02 No.14403171

    Nor the budget, from what I've heard. America was in an Isolationist mood, only Pearl Harbor and a declaration of war managed to get them to decide to act. It's not to say that they didn't fail in some measure to keep up with military technology, it was that they did not feel a need to keep up with it, because that's not how they played the tank game. Any failure would be because of doctrine, not because the Americans somehow couldn't come up with a better design. And despite this deficiency, the Americans did manage to successfully fight the Wehrmacht all the same.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)04:15 No.14403249

    Germans had encountered Matildas, Chars and Somuas before their Russian adventures and had the same problems dealing with them as they had with KV series.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)04:26 No.14403307
    It's also worth pointing out the US fought on two separate fronts, and provided tons of supplies and support to its allies even before committing to the war. America's involvement was key to winning the war, no doubt about it. Not that I think Hitler could have taken over the world, Germany didn't have THAT much manpower, the guy was a self-destructive nutjob and other factors would have cause them to collapse soon enough. But still.

    The main issue with America's weapons and equipment design come from:
    A lack of effective guns within a certain range. We didn't have effective large caliber machineguns/cannon for mount on planes. While other nations were using 20mm cannons we were loading our planes down with .50 cals. At the same time, we had the M2 .50 which is sitll a great design.

    Our tank designs were lagging behind. That's it. They weren't bad, just lagging behind. The Sherman was a fine piece of equipment, it just was unfortunately inadequate for the roles it had to be pressed into. The little guy still stepped up fairly well and provided support that saved soldiers lives regularly.

    And that's really it. We had great infantry weapons, our aircraft were on par or better with all the rest of the nations, and our navy was top-notch. Most importantly, we had the industry and resources to commit to the war in a way that almost no one else could match.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)04:33 No.14403357
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    Good tanks don't break down a quarter of the time before they can ever get into combat. Getting taken out of action by mechanical breakdowns is even worse than getting taken out by enemy action; at least the enemy has to work for it in the latter. Industrial wars about getting the most out of your limited resources, and the Germans did that very poorly. While there's 6 T-34s/Shermans providing fire support to their infantry, and the Germans infantry can't do jack shit about it because the resources that could've gone into more tanks instead went into a single tank.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/11(Tue)08:08 No.14404465
    I would suggest that the number of kills some of their super tanks managed. My Grandfather considered panzers a serious issue. Mainly because they not only killed his sherman, they killed another 6 before they ran out of ammo.

    What sank German Armor was more along the lines of things like the P-47 and close air support.

    As fr as German Armor being inferior: the Russians did experiments on them and couldn't figure out why the Germans kept using them. After all, if you parked an anti-tank gun fifteen feet away, it could penetrate after only two shots!

    In reality the problem was underpowered engines and inferior transmissions. The Maybach just was not the best power supply and the transmissions suffered breakdowns due to a tendency to under estimate stresses.

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