I think the basic logic is that you are STEALING the power from the gods, and not just taking from a well of power that gods also draw from. Stealing is evil, and thus, Ur-Priests are evil.

>>14754583
My chaotic good rogues beg to differ.

After all, Robin Hood was a good person. He stole from the rich and gave to the poor.

What about an Ur-Priest who does the same? He steals spells from the gods and heals people for free, instead of requiring donations like a church. OR, he heals people the churches will not. Or he simply works against the gods for what he sees as the benefit of mortals everywhere.

Stealing is not inherently evil, particularly in D&D.

The summary is simply that stealing from the GODS is seen as an irredeemable sin. That's almost laughable, if it weren't so horrifying.

leftover judeo-christian cultural standards which glorify divinity for it's own sake

>>14754601
>Gods set morals
>Stealing from Gods is evil

Why am I not suprised?

>>14754583
So, for instance, Prometheus was evil?

>>14754601

Look at the race that created the class.

I'm not shocked that it's irredeemably evil.

Well think of it like this. If you steal power from a good god, that's one less miracle he can perform. Stealing from neutral gods like gods of nature poses the risk of throwing whatever they govern out of wack. Even with evil gods, most good people wouldn't want to mess with their divine essence out of fear of being corrupted by it or pissing off the god himself.

>>14754643
The gods thought so.

>>14754643
Prick went and stole fire to give to HUMANS instead of leaving them as powerless playthings of the gods.

Irredeemably evil bastard god what he deserved, if you ask me. Zeus might have let him off a bit light, though.

>>14754643
Humans stealing from gods is bit like dog stealing a steak from human. Simple rules, repeat them often and give treats for obeying. Breaking the rules raises hell.

Though this might be a bit different in a setting where humans can ascend to godhood. Dogs can't become humans.

It's almost as if alignment restrictions are a terrible idea!

I was thinking about this earlier, too.

It doesn't really explain why it's evil very well, minus the fact that pure evil, god-hating humanoids invented the class. A good DM would probably let you bend the rules and play a non-evil ur-priest as long as you gave a good reason for the character's decision.

>>14754660
Even good gods support the wall of the faithless, the worship system, and often support exploitative monetary systems where being saved from disease depends on how much money you have.

That is the GOOD gods, not the neutral or evil ones. They are considerably less nice.

If you see even the good gods as primarily harmful, it cannot be considered evil to steal divine power from them to undermine their evil system.

>>14754672
That you know of.

>>14754660
if you opposed the concept of godhood for ideological reasons (wanting to free humanity from the oversight of dictatorial high entities) then even the good gods aren't necessary a good thing

>>14754660
I would go with this for a "canon" explanation, if I had to. Personally I don't see anything evil about the class and wouldn't have an alignment restrictions. Evil ur-priests would probably be more common, but they wouldn't all be evil.

>>14754704
If you look at everything from this perspective, even organised state stops being good. So now even the good kings are evil? Or elected heads of state, seeing how you pretty much "vote" for your gods with worship?

>>14754745
In some respects that stance IS equivalent with anarchy, but I believe this is actually wrong.

It's more like you have a society with a sort-of democracy, like some states in Europe long ago. You have a royal family, and the people can vote for the ruler they want from that family. Whether good or evil, the individual monarch still supports a system where power is held in that one individual family. The common man cannot become king.

The ur-priest in this case wouldn't support pure chaos (although a chaos ur-priest would also be interesting), but instead a different kind of order. Instead of gods, mortals set up their own nations in the afterlife, and rule themselves. What rulers they have are the ones they choose, through their own methods and means.

You just have to ask yourself - is this system superior to the one where the gods rule? I would say yes. Mortal self-rule is the, well, rule on the Prime Material plane. Theocracies are the exception.

There would be good, bad, and neutral governments, just like on the PMP. People just choose where they want to live when they die, and that's that.

No gods, no kings, only men.

Mind you, the Ur Priests are a sect of megalomaniacs who want to usurp the multiverse with the power they steal. They're not Robin Hood.

>>14754704
To understand the horrible theism of FR, you have to start at the top, with Overgod Ao, who doesn't care about anything and anyone. One day Ao decided to make gods depend on their worshipers for power, and suddenly all the good and neutral deities had to become slave drivers in order to keep up with the evil gods. Hence the Wall. Because the FR universe is set up in such a way that Mystra and Sune and Corellon have to scare and torture people into following them, or Evil will triumph. And Kelemvor has to sit down there and listen to the cries of souls being slowly crushed into nothingness, and cast more and more souls into it, souls that didn't know or that didn't worship strongly enough, or that did something inane like renouncing their patron deity in delirium on their deathbeds.

In its core, FR is 40K-grade grimderp.

itt: why alignments suck

>>14754824
Indeed, the destruction of AO and dissolution of the god-system might be the end goal of a good Ur-Priest.

A Chaos Ur-Priest might just stop at dissolution, wanting reality to return to the chaos of Limbo in the time before the creation of the structured universe. He would have no use for gods.

>>14754831

itt: no one knows a thing about alignments, philosophy, or ancient religions.

>>14754822

Thank you, yes. Everyone seems to be ignoring this part.

The thing is, no matter what kind of reasoning you use for a good ur-priest, he's still harming others through his actions. even if he thinks gods are evil in the long run, it's hard to look past all good things gods do. Even gods of death make sure death keeps happening normally. Harming the gods could destabilize nature and reality.

>>14754822
Some might be, but there's nothing that says someone with the skills of an Ur-Priest who is not a part of the Vashadar or whatever the evil civilization's name is.

The skills need not be inherently connect to evil. They could be independently developed, or they could be learned from an Ur-Priest who simply accepts money to give the training, aware that the person getting the training is not evil.

Nothing about Ur-Priests other than the origin of the class seems to indicate it MUST be inherently evil, except that it necessitates stealing from the gods.

And this is why the biggest problem with fantasy settings is the amorphous nature of the planes and gods.

In DND, gods are total bros. They make mistakes, they give you cool shit, they invite you over for drinks and shrimp. Hell, you don't even need an invitation, just cast Planar Portal and *boom*, instant awesomeness.

If you want an Ur-Priest to be evil you have to make divine realms DIVINE. As in no filthy, tainted mortal ever gets in. Ever. To look upon true metaphysical perfection creates a memetic paradox in a mortal mind, causing you to spontaneously combust or turn to stone or some shit.

tl;dr, bad storytelling is to blame here, not alignments.

>>14754944
This.

The overgod made FR its own hostage - disturb the system in place, everything goes to pits. Even the gods are powerless to do anything about it. You can't fix it, and trying to do so is just hurting everyone. Enjoy your epic adventures, don't mind the elminster with a glowing exclamation mark.

>>14754944
When you're a paladin and you kill an evil bandit who was rampaging across the countryside, you were doing good, right?

What if he did it to feed his family? They're starving now. You did the right thing and put an end to an evil asshole, but you also did real harm as a result.

All good necessitates SOME harm along the way. That in and of itself is not a proper argument against the Ur-Priest possibly being good.

Think of it like overthrowing a demi-democratic monarchy in favor of a democracy. Could it end up destabilizing things, causing total chaos? Sure. Is he still fighting for a good cause, with good aims? Yes. He wants a different system in place, one more fair to the people.

The BoVD had a bunch of shit that was not inherently evil but was described as evil because they wanted to fill pages. The BoED was even worse in this regard. Both books are utter shit because they basically say "if you are pretty and you bathe you are good no matter what you do so long as it's done to ugly/dirty people. Ugly/dirty people and people who use gross things are inherently evil! CLEAVE AND SMITE"

If you completely remove all aspects of alignment from the crunch and completely ignore all the fluff (except for evil weather/locations, that shit's tight), you might have 10 pages' worth of usable material.

>>14754993

I'm pretty sure killing a bandit is a few steps separated from causing gods of healing to not be able to heal, gods of death from making sure people die, or gods of nature from being unable to sustain nature. Chaos is one thing, causing the apocalypse is another.

>>14754989
So the only real answer IS to be willing to do some harm, perhaps major, in order to build a better system.

It's analogous to a revolution. There will be harm as the war rages, and there will be chaos when the government falls. It COULD turn out horrible, leading to pure anarchy. Is leading a revolution an inherently evil act, then?

Nope. Because it's being done for the right reasons: A hope for something better, to destroy an unfair system.

>>14755023
Who says the gods should be doing ANY of that? Death is natural; it happens whether the gods want it to or not. Healing is possible through mortal means; particularly if mortals steal divine energy so they can heal as they like, rather than at the whims of a god.

The irony of gods of nature being necessary to maintain the natural state of things is hilarious. It makes something inherently against the artificial INTO something artificial.

Face it; the gods aren't necessary. They, and the system they represent, is inherently harmful to mortals and oppressive. The only proper answer is to destroy them all, and especially AO. Then, create a new system where there ARE no gods, only mortals.

I remember a setting a friend made...
Gods grew out of spirits, mostly through eating other spirits.
Three of the possible character routes used this. The first was bartering to learn how spirits worked, then running spirit energy through yourself until you started turning into one. You could also directly steal power from spirits, or get 'boons' from coercing or bargains.
Shit was awesome. The BBEG was a guy rotting from the inside out due to taking in a boon from a god of decay, and trying to find a cure before plot killed everything he ever loved and he decided screw this.

The ur-priest is evil for the same reason the vermin lord is evil and the slayer of domiel is good: because the book says so. Cut out the unnecessary "sacrifice a humanoid to a bug monster" shit and the vermin lord is just a druid who likes swarms. SoD is literally an OP assassin that gets to be OP because he only attacks things that are "evil", i.e. "things that don't ping on detect good plus anyone who might be doing something evil if we remove all context."

alignment is stupid and D&D is only useful as babby's first rpg.

>>14754691
yet if the cosmology deems them good, you are probably deemed evil by the cosmology for opposing them

>>14755059

Enjoy your smoking crater of a world then, where all mortals are free and equal in death.

>>14755103
If you have the power to destroy AO, you obviously have the power to heal the world after the war.

>>14755126
But that's like a limited user challenging a domain administrator.

>>14755126

It's a lot easier to destroy than it is to create.

>>14755149
Yes, but it can be done by skilled hackers of reality. Which spellcasters ARE. If your powers are stolen or self-generated, rather than granted by the gods or regulated by the gods, they cannot be removed, either.

>>14755151
Not in D&D, it isn't. The spells are all covered by level 9.

Once you're powerful enough to kill AO, you could probably make a NEW world.

>>14755164
Ao is THE god. Yahweh of the setting. The guy with the joystick. You're part of the system, he's outside the system. You can't really match him in any way unless he wants you to, in which case it will happen whether you like it or not.

>>14755149
it depends, does the limited user teleport out of the computer to attack the admin with a sword?

>>14755194
>implying mad scientists never lose control of their machines

same thing, bigger scale.

>>14755164

Destroying the world is still a pretty evil act.

Weirdly enough, I could use all of your posts to make a pretty nice BBEG.

>>14755211
He's off the scale that you can compete on. Even if you could actually somehow outgrow the universe to face its creator, you still have to somehow survive the time during which you're an obvious problem and yet a commoner's summoned chicken facing a fully prepared wizard.

>>14755212
I actually already created one. It's on the sup/tg/ archive from a long while back, called something like "Anti-Thiest Ubermensch".

Basically, a party of evil characters are fighting to destroy the wall of the faithless and the gods. They're inspired by fictional characters. The leader is an Ur-Priest modeled after Kamina from TTGL, but ultimately out for destruction. The fighter is modeled after Gutts, the Mage is modeled after Lina Inverse, and there were a few others with them.

Unfortunately, most posters wanted to JOIN the evil party rather than destroy them, regardless of how it would ultimately end up.

It's a theme I've loved for a long time.

>>14755280

Unfortunately I can't seem to find the archived thread. Any other keywords come to mind?

What if you break the alignment system down to good vs evil and explicitly state that evil is just stuff the gods don't like and vice versa. You'd still have Paladins smiting "evil" and falling for doing anything "evil", but you'd also have rebels against the system that get an evil alignment for preaching maltheism or not respecting temples, or breaking the laws of the holy wars that ensure that no side ever actually wins (ie. war as the gods' boardgame). You wouldn't need to change any of DnD's mechanics except those few that are based on Law/Chaos.

Hmm. It seems to have disappeared from the archive, or something.

I can just repost what I have saved on my computer, from the initial concept stuff. Sadly, this lacks stats, and is mostly just for character design. Let me look it up, I'll be right back.

>>14755272
obviously, then, you need to take control of the universe from him in SECRET.

and, considering how little he interacts with the universe itself, this shouldn't be too tough.

>The thread is about an antagonist character that is an Athar Defiant10/Ur-Priest 10. A person who believe the gods are not actually gods, but pretenders. He/She believes that they are evil manipulators, who control mankind.

>In many respects, they would be right - particularly in a setting like Forgotten Realms, where the gods stick the faithless on the wall where they suffer horribly before dying, and are, in fact, basically just highly powerful mortals.

>The combination of Ur-Priest (who steals power from the gods) and Athar Defiant (who resists divine power by power of disbelief) is a powerful one. At epic levels, when combined with Arcane spellcasting, this person could potentially take on gods; nullify their power, steal their power, and strike back with arcane power.

>I personally envision this character as a combination between Lex Luthor and Kamina - believing so strongly in themselves and disbelieving in the gods so hard it borders on insanity. Both incredibly inspirational and incredibly dickish and narcissistic.

>Potentially, one could assemble a whole party of characters like these for an antagonist party. One other I have envisioned is a Guts like fighter; a combination of Barbarian, fighter, and frenzied berserker who hates the gods because a friend of his became one at the cost of hundreds of lives.

That was from the first thread. I'm posting something from the third thread.

This thread, then, is about this antagonist - a character the PC's have to defeat, as well as his followers - a fellow party of anti-theists.

The basic idea is this: The party consists of several epic-level NPC's united by past tragedy at the hands of the divine. They've been betrayed, or lost everyone they love, or been brutally oppressed by the gods, and they've had enough. They want the gods to die.

Not necessarily a bad aim, considering what dicks the gods of D&D can be at times. However - they want to accomplish this through a very specific means, which may destroy the multiverse. First, they go around, fighting the gods and their servants, using the charismatic ubermensch to sway as many people as possible into not worshipping the gods. Then they plan to launch an attack on the Wall of the Faithless itself. Their goal is to completely destroy it - free the souls on it, and through them, create a ready made army that will allow them to defend their own little slice of the astral plane, where they already have created a pocket dimension. Backed by knowledge and powerful artifacts, and helped by innefectual, power hungry, and arrogant gods, this is very possible. However - breaking down the wall of the faithless would free Asmodeus; a great being that can smite greater gods with impugnity. The party doesn't know this - but even if they did, they wouldn't care. They see the wall as too great an atrocity to be allowed to continue to exist. (note that the exact reason is, of course, variable - feel free to change it for your campaign)

The PC's are, in essence, an epic level hit squad - designated to help the gods defeat the antagonist party and thereby save the multiverse.

At this time, the antagonists party consists of five characters:

The aforementioned Ubermensch, a 10Defiant/10Ur-Priest.
A fighter that is essentially Guts from Berserk with a name change.
The Mage who believes humanity is being held back from their true magical potential by the gods of magic, who fear our potential will allow us to challenge them.
The Psion who believes solely in their own power and wishes to defeat the gods because his people were destroyed by an act of divine wrath - which he survived solely due to his own power.
And finally, the Rogue - a figure that grew up poverty stricken, and watched as the gods helped those rich enough to afford healing, while the poor suffered and died. She steals money from temples and churches to give to the poor and to finance the campaign.

Also from the third thread:

To flesh out the other characters a bit more;

The Fighter is a Fighter10/Barbarian5/Frenzied Berserker5. He was an epic level swordsman before his best friend turned on him, sacrificed hundreds of people and became a demon god. His primary quest is to kill his old friend, now a god.

The Mage is a pure Wizard20/Archmage5. The primary inspiration for all her actions is that she believes the gods have suppressed mankind's potential power. They keep us subservient to both force worship, which the gods need to survive, and to maintain their stranglehold on divine power. She believes that with the restrictions on magic lifted, normal humans can surpass the gods or steal their power (which is true) and thus, seeks to lift those restrictions.

The Psion is, in essence, a pure nihilist, hubristic, nietzsche plagarizing jingostic individual. Simply put, someone who believes in himself and ONLY himself, and hates the gods simply because they are more powerful - and he believes he could reach that level of power. Perhaps he believes that he could prove it by slaying the gods. His motivation beyond that, however, is that their entire homeland was destroyed by an act of divine wrath. He was the only one to survive - solely due to his incredible power as a Psion.
No class levels have been assigned.

The thief is still rather undefined, and is gone over as stated before.

I once played an Ur-Priest. She started off as a LAWFUL GOOD (caps for emphasis) Cleric of Pelor. The party was caught in the middle of a war between two kingdoms - a lawful evil mageocracy and a chaotic evil theocracy (with the empress set up as a demi-god). Rather than side with one kingdom or the other, the party opted to foil the designs of both kingdoms and keep the civilian population safe, eventually becoming a viable (if weak) third faction.

It was a tough campaign, but we were doing pretty well. Civilians were rescued, small groups of soldiers defected to our cause, and we kept a pretty vigorous hit-and-run game going that kept us out of harm's way.

And then the fighter died. It didn't even seem that bad at first - a heroic sacrifice to save a group of civilians from one of the evil generals. My cleric was sad (they were best friends) but pretty confident that once they got the money for components she could revive her bro. Little did she know, the fighter was an atheist - he didn't follow any of the gods, and in fact considered them to be parasites.

After multiple failed attempts at revival, my Cleric began to understand just what this meant for our fighter - her best friend: he was trapped in the wall of the faithless, tormented for thousands of years before finally being completely obliterated. That was his reward for giving his life to save hundreds of innocents. She tried to petition her god for mercy, but was basically answered with the celestial equivalent of "lol I dunno."

Things got ugly after that.

I think this was how the party ended up:
Anti-Thiest Ubermensch: Athar Defiant 10/Ur-Priest10/Fighter5, Based on a fusion of Kamina and Lex Luthor

Fighter: Fighter10/Barb5/Frenzied Berserker5, based on Gutss from Berserk

Mage: Wizard 20/Archmage5; Based on Lina Inverse from Slayers

Psion: Don't remember the class mix; a Fusion of Dr. Doom and David Xanatos

Thief: Rogue5/Raider10/Ur-Priest5; Based on Indiana Jones and Thomas Paine.

Overall, they WERE evil, and the protagonists were supposed to stop them. Their leader was extremely charismatic, however, and despite the fact that they make good arguments, they aren't really out to help anyone but themselves.

The goal of the campaign was mostly to stop them from claiming various items of power that would let them challenge the gods and destroy the wall of the faithless. They were supposed to level up as time went on, if the players didn't kill them right off.

FR is a stupid setting. There, I said it.

>>14755480

Good GOD man, keep going! Did you mount a campaign against the Gods and their brutal regime?

These guys are probably in the same boat as the Sith. The original group were a bunch of evil bastards or eventually became evil bastards, and they made sure only to train people who were already evil bastard or who could be easily manipulated into becoming evil bastards, and eventually the methods for training became a gauntlet that eliminated potentials until only the evil bastard were left.

>>14755541
Yeah, the Sith business model is the dumbest thing ever.

>>14755537
sauce

The Wall of the Faithless no longer exists in 4E. I rather liked that.

>>14755537
man, why did got start eatin' souls?

was this just the day he realized that the thing he was eternally hungering for was souls? Like, he's never eaten anything in history and just NOW realizes "hey, I think I eat souls?"

because that happens a lot to gods.

>>14755480
The loss of her faith was gradual at first. She was too distracted by the war to mourn properly, and for awhile that kept her busy. The party kept going despite their loss - the fighter's player rolled a new character (a Paladin, if memory serves) and we kept building our army until we had become a viable threat to both kingdoms. Unfortunately, that meant they began sending their armies after us DIRECTLY. We lost a lot of followers either to battle or fatigue, but we kept up our work. We raided dungeons for money to support our cause (we needed to feed our army, after all), and during one such dungeon crawl we found an interesting codex - an ancient spellbook that contained the secrets of stealing power from the gods. We threw it in with the rest of the loot, intending to sell it later, but my character was drawn to it. In moments of weakness, I had my character sneak into our treasure room and peruse the tome without telling the party. The DM informed me that I could, if I so chose, use this knowledge to exchange class levels in Cleric for Ur-Priest. I resisted at first, trusting that Pelor had a plan, but even in spite of that I kept reading. I eventually learned that the God-Queen of the chaotic evil kingdom had used this same technique to enhance her evil power and that if I underwent the same process I would deny her much of her strength and be able to face her on equal terms.

>>14755059
>Who says the gods should be doing ANY of that?

Cyric must have said something similar before he killed that cunt Midnight/Mystra. Look how well that went.

>>14755537
It's obviously from The Spectre. It's odd, though. It definitely contradicts Gaiman's version of god.

>>14755611
Tell me that Pelor contacted you about breaking an oath or whatever and you responded "SCREW THE RULES, I'M DOING WHAT'S RIGHT"

>>14755612
Cyric was an idiot. The argument still has validity whether or not he also used it to justify his actions in any event.

>>14755645
Yes, but I was rather pointing at the outcome. 4e. Spellplague. Etc. Also natural part of life? The gods MADE life, and nature, and everything.

Also its not like all the gods are evil, its all fine and dandy to off people like Cyric, Shar, Lolth, Vecna (not like he is a god. HAHAHAHA HHAHAHA) and whatnot but you want to kill the goddess of love, Mordin, that drow nudist who may have died since then, etc.?

Plus, killing a god would do wonders to the millions of petitioners living in their realms on various planes.

Offing Ao is silly by the way, he is literally omnipotent, and Ao is just a servant to an even greater entity hinted to be /spoilersdon'twork the DM. If you really want to save the world from the shackles of the divine you can only do one thing. Punch the DM in the nuts.

>>14755611
I kept resisting, but the Paladin was getting suspicious. Still, the temptation was gnawing at me. I held out, though, until things got especially bad. We were betrayed by one of our NPC generals, trapped by the evil queen's army, and reduced to almost half of our prior strength. As the enemy laid siege to our base and Pelor refused - REFUSED - to help us do his good work, my character decided that she'd had enough. The night before the next session, I told my DM I wanted to sneak out and confront the Queen myself. I would use the ritual. I would renounce the gods. I would do whatever it took to make things right. We talked a bit about what I would do: I'd sneak into the enemy camp and make my way to the empress. She was incredibly powerful and so she kept very little personal guards. Once I woke her I would call her out, challenge her to a fight to the death (she was proud so she was unlikely to refuse) and, just as the fight began, renounce the Gods, finish the ritual, and try my best to kill her. The DM listened to my plan and then asked "are you sure?" When I said yes, he told me to roll up a new character.

I was pretty bummed of course, but it made sense; my character's plan was pretty foolish so there were no hard feelings. I made an arcane trickster assuming I'd be introduced next session (as an escaped prisoner, perhaps).

>>14754532
D&D evil does not always mean unethical, it's just strongly associated with unethical acts because many such things are inherently metaphysically evil. It swings back and forth between a moral and metaphysical concept depending on who wrote the supplement you're reading because of this.

>>14755699
>The DM listened to my plan and then asked "are you sure?" When I said yes, he told me to roll up a new character.

Thats pretty gay. And I know gay.

>>14755699
The DM opened the session as normal. We went in order, undergoing preparations for the final battle (I kept quiet per his request), and eventually told the group that my cleric wasn't there. After a bit of fucking around he let them figure out that she'd snuck off with the book. They freaked out a bit and rushed off to my rescue (ironically, the Paladin came up with a pretty good plan on the fly - it may even have saved us). They ran out of the base, army at their back, expecting to die trying to save me.

But the enemy didn't fight them. In fact, the soldiers parted like a river around them, ushering them towards the center of their camp. Confused and wary, they went carefully approaching the center where the God-Queen's makeshift throne had been erected from the bones of her enemies.

Lying at the base of the throne, my cleric's sword broken off inside of her lifeless body, was the God-Queen. Sitting on the throne of bones, with the entire enemy army kneeling beside her, was my former cleric of Pelor.

>>14755645
The argument is valid, but depending on the setting it may not necessarily be sound. Maybe the world really does rely on the gods for things like death and the natural order to happen properly. You can ask why if you like, but you may as well ask why objects with mass attract each other, or why objects carrying like charges repel. It simply is -- it's a fact of existence.

It can make a nice argument to flesh out a sympathetic villain, but it won't take you any further than "misguided, well-intentioned extremist", which IMO puts you no higher than neutral on the good/evil alignment axis.

>>14755714
Makes sense to me. Player doesn't know if they will succeed, and if they fail you don't have to waste time

>>14755731
Still, you make a character spending time on it, play it, have fun then after given a choice by the DM he just takes it away like that and tells you to roll a new one. Thats kinda infuriating. At least I'd be mad. Even if I do something suicidal I'd like it to be interactive, not just "you die next character" even if this particular story wasn't about death.

>>14755728
In those settings, you simply need ONE god instead. One who has one policy and one policy only: Don't get involved. The laws will work as they will work, and people will do as they will.

A god like that shouldn't need worship to exist anyway. In that event, the goal would be to kill the gods and replace them as a single all powerful god, who keeps things running but otherwise doesn't get involved.

>>14755731
>don't have to waste time
Bullshit, that wasn't "not wasting time", that was ROCKS FALL YOU DIE. If you die from being filled with divine fire, say that. Don't just say "LOL MAKE A NEW CHARACTER FAG"

>>14755715
Ok, now that's a dick move.

I'm gonna fuck you over big time, then turn your character into the new BBEG.

>>14755715
She had obviously changed. The DM described her, saying that her formerly golden hair had darkened to midnight black and her eyes had taken on a purplish hue (they were blue before). Still, he said, her eyes lit up at the sight of her friends and she stood with a big, friendly smile that looked almost like her old one (save that her teeth were all slightly pointed now).

Then he turned her back over to me. I was caught off guard at first, but I got the hang of it quickly. I told the party that I had slain the God-Queen without the help of the Gods and taken her kingdom for my own (after all, clearly I was the chosen one, not her). Now we wouldn't have to hide anymore - we wouldn't need to scratch and crawl to save people's lives. We could end the war once and for all and then, with an all powerful army at our backs, march on the heavens themselves, destroy the wall of the faithless and rescue our friend who had given his life protecting the innocent. We could correct the great cosmic travesty once and for all and build a world where men would be free, where they wouldn't be subject to the cruel whims of outsiders, a TRUE utopia built by mortal hands!

They were, naturally, less than pleased.

>>14755752

.... It's like Exalted in reverse.

In fact, that's actually a pretty badass motivation.

>>14755752

>opinions

There was one god, he got bored and decided to make other gods and have them dance for his amusement.

>>14755768
Hell, she'd have my sword

>>14755768
I woulda' been onboard.
Sounds like an epic goal. A lot more fun than just killing larger and larger flavors of evil black dragon.

>>14755768
I'm sure you can guess at how the conversation went. The Paladin was the most hurt of all (ironic, considering I did this all for his former character). They renounced what I had done, begged me to relinquish my throne and atone for my sins against the Gods. They called me mad, and swore that if I kept on this path they would stop me. My new army stood up at this, drawing their weapons and surrounding their meager forces, but I told them to stand down. I turned back to my friends and told them that I was sorry they felt that way, but that I wouldn't stop. I wouldn't kill them, how could I, but I advised them not to get in my way - to focus their efforts on the other army, and that if they wouldn't help me slay the gods, at least help me end the war sooner.

Again, no need for the transcript. Threats were exchanged for awhile, but eventually they left (after being given a few POWs to take care of, my new rogue among them).

The party fled the continent for awhile, leaving my Cleric to her own devices and focusing on the other army. I played a few solo sessions with my Cleric (now an Ur-Priest) handling the finer points of governance. I won't lie - she quickly became pretty ruthless. She used people, she betrayed them, she earned her new Lawful Evil alignment. But guess what? Her kingdom flourished. Her army grew. Her people became happier than they'd ever been. And when the party started fighting against her as the new BBEG (I had, by that point, stopped playing her entirely) she always seemed to pull her punches against them until the very end.

>>14755752
>In that event, the goal would be to kill the gods and replace them as a single all powerful god, who keeps things running but otherwise doesn't get involved.
I think you mean "To steal the power of all the other gods, eventually taking their roles entirely and becoming the single omnipotent, disinterested god".

>>14755752
But my point is that such a switch may not be possible in the setting you're in. You may as well try to write out the second law of thermodynamics or something -- unless you can somehow alter the fundamental laws of existence that govern even the gods themselves, you may just have to accept that your conception of an ideal deistic or atheistic cosmology may be impossible.

Granted, this all depends on setting. There may be settings where a divine regime change is possible, in which case you can go nuts with a rage-against-the-heavens type campaign. But not every setting will allow that, and this is something you just have to accept sometimes. You, as a player, do not dictate the setting -- that's the DM's job. And if you don't like the setting your DM gives you, you have two options: suck it up and deal with it, or quit and find a new DM who won't make you (heavens forbid!) play in a fictional world that doesn't quite match up to your ideals of how things should be.

>>14755752
I don't get it.

MAN, FUCK GOD, he/she NEVER DOES ANYTHING. IF I WAS IN CHARGE, THINGS WOULD BE exactly the same. THAT'S IT, I'M GOING TO KILL GOD AND TAKE his/her PLACE.

>>14754647
What race created Ur-Priests? I just skimmed through Complete Divine and didn't see a mention of a originating race.

>>14755798

>Be evil
>Make a kingdom for yourself
>All the citizens are extremely well off and generally happy with the way things are going.
>The "Good Guys" still oppose you anyway.

RICHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARDS!

>>14755798
Lawful Evil:
For when you need to simultaneously kill gods and build a better government

My current character would also totally throw in with her

>This thread

The Wall is a particularly FR concept, isn't it?
The strange thing there is that there are so many bullshit Gods that there is an afterlife that is ideally suited for what you do. Every-fucking-thing. there's a heaven for chefs, for bail bondsmen. You can even get adopted by a God upon death, by accidentally living up to their virtues or furthering their domain; given the massive volume of fucking Gods, this is an almost inevitable occurance. The only people I can see ending up on the wall is people who actively oppose the idea of acknowledging the God exists (not all Gods expect 'worship' - there are Gods of freedom), people who are afraid of the afterlife they 'earned' for themselves, or cloud cuckoo landers like Bishop who are crazy, but not God of Madness crazy.

>>14755798
Eventually the tide began to turn against her. The party won more and more victories (they had rebuilt their army after basically taking over the mageocracy). Eventually they brought the fight all the way to her capital city. It was a bloody battle: she had whipped her people into a frenzy of religious devotion and the DM made a point to mention that every enemy we killed screamed her name as they died. Eventually we fought our way to her throne room where she sat alone, cradling the former God-Empress' sword on her lap. She gave a decent villain's monologue about how they should have just left her alone, about how she was doing the right thing, etc. etc. but eventually we threw down. It was a pretty tough fight (she'd gained some levels in end-boss after I stopped playing her, it seems) but eventually we persevered. I'd love to say that the Paladin struck the killing blow, but actually our Wizard was the one who nuked her to shit.

Still, she wasn't quite dead. She lay there, smoldering against her shattered throne and beckoned us closer. She whispered how she was glad that they were the ones to bring her down. She then informed us why all of her followers had been calling her name with their last breaths...why she had let it come this far...

>>14755842

A player in my game recently came up with a plan to become a god.

They were thinking of ways to take out a cult of Vecna and he offered the genius suggestion of just killing Vecna. The other players rudely told him you can't kill a god. I told them that actually, yea you can if you're strong enough. In fact, a god would never go to another god's plane to fight him. He'd send his best mortal adventurers.

So now that's his plan. Kill Vecna and take his job. I fully support him and wish him the best.

(The moral of this story is that it's important to have ambitions. No dream is out of reach if you BELIEVE in yourself.)

>>14755854

>>14755846

>You can even get adopted by a God upon death, by accidentally living up to their virtues or furthering their domain

And this is what happens now. And if you somehow don't do that, Kelemvor essentially plays darts with your soul, the dartboad being the various afterlives. Or you just chill about for a bit.

>>14755846

>You can even get adopted by a God upon death, by accidentally living up to their virtues or furthering their domain

Where is this stated? I'm pretty sure you have to actually, y'know, worship or state your belief in a god in order to keep out of the Wall.

>>14755874

It's stated in the Forgotten Realms campaign books and especially the novels, ever since they removed the Wall of the Faithless.

>>14755842

>>14755809
Remember, however, that this is only necessary in a setting where gods are absolutely necessary.

Ideally, even in one of those settings, you would become the omnipotent god, then rewrite the rules so that there is no need for any god, even you. People are then free to do as they will, and the universe will run on natural law.

>>14755854
She knew that without our help she would never be able to kill the Gods. She'd thought, at first, to wipe all religion from the world - to dry up all prayers and starve the enemy to death - but as she carried out her genocidal plan she realized an alternative. If enough people worshiped HER she realized that SHE could ascend to godhood where she could do something to protect the lost souls without faith. (Un)fortunately, we had stopped her before the process could be completed, but with her death, and with the souls of her fanatical followers as fuel, she could build a demi-plane where the souls of the faithless could seek shelter from the wall until some other soul finished what she had started. She asked us to let her perform the ritual, promising that it wasn't a trick, but we weren't sure how far we could trust her (me least of all, since I knew what a bitch she could be). Surprisingly, it was the Paladin who nodded and said "do it."

>>14755829
>happy
Happiness is manditory, failure to be sufficiently happy results in meeting with a Doombot. There is also no sickness in Latveria. There's no hospitals either. There is a Doombot on every street corner though. Coughing in public is not recommended.

>>14755922

You dare to question the Latverian nation's happiness?

Death to the infidel!

>>14755854

I CAN'T PRESS F5 ANY FASTER

>>14755959
>>14755913
You also can't read very well.

>>14755913
Surprisingly, she was on the level. As the ritual concluded she began to crumble to dust right before our eyes. As she withered away, her very essence being used to build a new sanctuary, she asked us one last favor: That we try one more time to bring back her best friend. We were all high-fuckoff-level by then so we had plenty of components and we gave it a try. The last thing she saw was a flash of bright light and, as the smoke cleared, our astonished faces at the sight of our fighter's newly ressurected body, snatched by the last of her waning power from the clutches of the gods.

We've played a few more campaigns in that version of Forgotten Realms. It's pretty much the same as the base setting except for one crucial detail: When they die, if they are of strong enough will, the faithless can escape the pull of the Wall and seek refuge in a small demi-plane. It's not the paradise of Elysium or Mount Celestia, but it's a safe place for those lost souls, crafted from the very heart of a Godless Priestess, Victoria, the mother of the faithless.

>>14755973
And to think, she could have done a lot of good if those damn PC's hadn't stopped her. Harrumph.

>>14755973
She has now been added to the pantheon of my group's upcoming campaign.

Lets see if we can't get some god wars going

>>14755979
Yeah. I'm an anti-theistic atheist, IRL, and all, but I fail to see how you can possibly justify "No! I will stop you! You cannot use your utopian nation and awesome magical powers to create a place for good people to go to so that they can escape a nigh-eternity of horrific torture!"

>>14755970

I quoted the wrong one in my haste, but my statement stands.

>>14755973

A glorious tale, and a better end than most who oppose the gods receive.

>>14755996
Gods told us to

>>14755878

I can't be the only one disappointed they removed the Wall of the Faithless.

>>14756010
MFW Euthyphro.

>>14756018
I'm only disappointed because it gives you good reason to hate the gods. That's all.

>>14755996
Maybe because she only got to that point by murdering everyone who stood against her? At first, she said she tried to tear down all religions - some innocents definitely got caught in those purges. The followers of the God of Justice would have to burn just like the follows of the God of Strife. And even after abandoning that goal for her new one, she "earned" her evil alignment so there was definitely some enemy slaughter going on.

Reminds me many "noble extremist" villains. Noble goals via horrendous methods.

>>14756033
When you take on the leaders of an unjust system, people will get caught in the crossfire no matter what. I maintain that it was justified, as that safe haven will remain for a long while, and ultimately save a good number of lives.

>>14756026

Well, a fair bit of the gods are now dead due to the magic AIDS, and the ones that are left have mostly mellowed out.

...mostly.

>>14756033
The God of Justice isn't really a *anything* of Justice if he subjects good men and women to horrific torture because they would not worship him. Again, maybe it's my real life atheism speaking, but I fail to see a difference in that scenario between an evil dragon who shows up to a kingdom and demands to be worshiped or he'll fry everyone. The only difference I can see is that the dragon is honest and his punishment comes sooner rather than later.

>>14756050
And how many had to be sacrificed for that safe haven? Thousands? I'm sure not all of them dedicated themselves to that noble goal as willing martyrs.

And this whole event sequence was tipped off by the lose of one man's soul. She could have accomplished the same goal ("No one virtuous gets stuck in the Wall") via the complete opposite path, by spreading faith instead of squashing it. If the Fighter had been a follower of a god, this whole mess could have been avoided.

But she didn't. She took the route of power and disregard for innocents. Even if something good came out of it in the end, that doesn't excuse her actions or keep the heroes from opposing her.

>>14756095
Terry Prachett Quote.
"We were dragons. We were supposed to be cruel, cunning, heartless and terrible. But this much I can tell you, you ape: We never burned and tortured and ripped one another apart and called it morality."

>>14755878

It is also stated, last time I read it, in 3.0's FR campaign setting, undr. If you lived a 'virtuous' life according to a patron, you could become their patron upon death enter their afterlife. After all, you can live or die in a city without ever having HEARD of Chauntea or Cyric, and yet live up to their principles. You may initially be seen as Faithless - but Kelemvor is nothing if a fair judge.

Of course, if you actively rejected the God you enbody I guess you're in trouble. Less likely to happen with good aligned characters; a man who loves justice would find many allies and comfort in belief in Torm or Helm, but it's hard for a torturer to embrace being a torturer.

Worse off are The False: is it such a crime to worship Helm all your life, only to find out you were more of a Sune person deep down? Do you deserve torture for that?

>>14756114
The best way to undermine an unjust system is to spread the system! The best way to save the innocent faithless is to ensure that they have faith!

Nevermind that they often have very good reasons for being faithless, from abuse by the gods to a desire to forge their own path to millions of other reasons.

Nevermind that converting people to god worship just powers the beings that created the wall of the faithless in the first place.

Nevermind any of that! In order to preserve the happiness of a few faithful, all faithless should go to the wall. If they were good people, they would have converted long ago.

>>14756114

>If the Fighter had been a follower of a god, this whole mess could have been avoided.

See, the very fact that he had to be a follower at all is the real problem here.

>>14756095
You're subjecting thousands to famine by not selling everything you own and donating it to charity. You monster.

Protip: Gods in D&D have limits. One of these limits is the resources they can spend to "save" souls from being eaten by demons. Welp. Guess what, athiest souls make great mortar and spackle which results in many, many more souls not being eaten by demons. As a bonus, athiests don't belive in gods, so why should gods belive in athiests? Pragmatic really.

>>14756159

>As a bonus, athiests don't belive in gods, so why should gods belive in athiests?

It is a VERY rare "athiest" in Faerun that actually doesn't believe that gods exist at all, and you'd be kidding yourself if you honestly thought otherwise. Generally you have various degrees of anti-theism, a belief that the "gods" are simply very powerful beings (which is true, technically), lack of interest, or simple ignorance.

Stealing isn't evil, it's chaotic. Nothing else really needs to be said.

>>14756114
Here's the thing though: by spreading faith, how many could she have saved? How many would actually, truly devote themselves to a god? My guess is that of they do not worship in a setting where paladins and clerics are running around then they have already considered every factor and there will be very little you can say/do to convince them to worship.

And if you were to get them to start going to church, would they actually worship the god/s? Or would it just be another mask that they throw on on holy days and discard in private?

Whittle the numbers down, and how many are actually, truly saved?

Versus
How many people would disbelieve in the gods over the course of say..... 100 years (roughly 5 human generations). How many of them would disbelieve? even if it's something like 0.01% that is still several thousand, if not tens of thousands that can be saved through their own abilities and will-power. And as the population increases, that number will increase over time. And when someone is inevitably resurrected from that realm they can tell others that "Hey, that wall thing? you can totally avoid that without having to believe in gods".

So the end result is a net increase in souls saved versus souls damned. That counts as being damn well justified in my book

>>14756203
Yeah. I'd argue no action is inherently good or evil. More often than not actions are either neutral or inherently chaotic/lawful, while the context and intent are what make them good/evil. Hence the difference between murder and killing, rape and sex, and stealing for selfish reasons or stealing the phylactery of an evil Lich so you can smash it.

>>14756186
The only examples given of people in the wall are fantaical anti-thiests who either walked up to a god in their own domain and said "Nope, I don't belive in you." or Bishop who refused to belive in gods even while he WAS IN THE WALL ITSELF with Kelvmore about 20 feet away. It takes a lot of self righteous belief bordering on psychotic delusion to actually physically stand on a god like Gann did in NWN:MotB and still say that gods don't exist. He belived in spirits though.

>>14756150

Those 'good reasons' are less common in D&D than IRL. Non-existant im not so sure of, but the difference here is that:

a) The FR Gods do very much exist in their setting. They came to Faerun once. Failure to acknowledge their EXISTENCE is pants on heads retarded.

b) The more expectant of worship, generally the more tyrannical the God. There are people who worship Torm, crusade for Torm, and there are those who just live a life by keyword: justice and admit that yes, there really is a Torm and they probably bumped into him a couple years back. He embodies what they love and they can dig that. Evil characters have more to worry about here; Talos is the big swinging dick of the seas, and he wants you to acknowledge it while you are terrifying sailors. Not you, him. Deciding that no, *you* are God of Storms is a great way to get rejected and walled. Evildoers have it rough, they have to unionise.

c) There are a fuckton of Gods. Have beef with your old lifestyle and principles? There's an faith for that. Freedom, charity, massicism, torture, love, lust, FIRE... there's a God that's willing to listen and whose agenda will be furthered. A church willing to support you.

tl;dr - faith in a setting with very real Gods is different from faith here on earth because they are sitting right over there. Not many of them have exacting commandments and dictates and shit because they can just go ahead and go down to do things. Unless they're lawful. In which case you obey those commandments because you were lawful, and you like rules.

Oh and evil aligned characters have it rough in the same way Batman Beyond villains had it rough, as they can look at their peers and predecessors in other stories and envy how easy they got it.

>>14756258

>stealing the phylactery of an evil Lich

I think when the "good guys" do it, it's called confiscating.

>>14756280
But how can one stealing something be inherently right or wrong if the notion of ownership is a social construct?

>>14756265
Ah. And the reason that Gann was a die hard Athiest who belived in spirits in everything but not gods was that he refused to belive in anything that might be bigger than he was.

>>14756265
The Athar are the best example, in that they do acknowledge the existence of the gods, but simply deny that they are truly divine. They see them as nothing more than powerful mortals on a power trip - which they ARE.

What is truly divine about them? They rely on worshipers for their power. They are often ascended mortals. Their powers are very limited.

The blunt truth is this: Just because gods exist doesn't mean you have to BELIEVE in them. The mailman exists, but you don't go around believing in him.

Nothing the gods have done actually make them DESERVE worship, anymore than a king deserves worship. Sure, he is powerful, and sure, he may be good - but he's still just a powerful mortal. No inherently better than anyone else.

So no, it isn't just about denying that the gods exist. You are faithless if you simply believe they are undeserving of worship.

>>14756323
Who's to say it's a social construct? Maybe the metaphysical reality of the world you're playing in is that everything, even abstract concepts, comes from some external prototype, something akin to Platonic Forms, and so "ownership", while something that has no meaning outside of a social structure, was not in fact an invention of society but rather a principle adopted by that society from an outside, self-existant source.

When you play in a fictional world, all bets are off. Any argument you could make, no matter how sound IRL, can be undone by the principles of the world you play in. Not every game has to be open to realistic, nuanced, navel-gazing moral quandaries; black-and-white IS an option.

>>14756365
On the other hand since the gods will wither and die without worship for sustenance it's not necessarily immoral of them to set up an incentive system that makes it in everyone on the plane's best interest to worship someone.

>>14756413
Or Ao will change his mind. LaughingDM.jpg

>>14756365
>Nothing the gods have done actually make them DESERVE worship
Depends on the metaphysics of the world. Are the gods just powerful beings with domains or are they actual incarnate beings of the things they represent. Like if the god of nature didn't get enough worship, does nature itself begin to break down? Can a world really be without joy, and if the goddess of joy dies via starvation and no one picks up the portfolio, does joy itself get removed from the world?

If that's the case, then yeah, having the gods around is a pretty big fucking deal. And given that killing Mystra fucked magic up real good, I'm not sure if the FR doesn't work like that.

>>14756274
A: True, but existence does not =/= divinity. What makes them deserving of worship?

B: They all expect you to worship them or go to the wall. They're ALL tyrants, whether they are more demanding in the kind of worship they want or not. If all kings demand that you worship them, does it matter whether they are nice or not, if they are not truly divine?

C: So what? Perhaps I want to be among equals, and not be the slave of a god, whether or not they like the things I do. If what I love most is equality, how can there be a true god for that? Gods are inherently unequal. They are the master and you the slave. Perhaps all slaves are equal under their master, but they are still slaves nonetheless.

tl:dr - yes, things are different in FR than in RL. However, there's plenty of valid reasons to be a malthiest or misotheist in those settings.

ur-priest is such an awful name.

I mean, ur suggests prototype or super but that isn't what they are.

>>14756434
"To suffer woes which Hope thinks infinite;
To forgive wrongs darker than Death or Night;
To defy Power, which seems Omnipotent;
To love, and bear; to hope, till Hope creates
From its own wreck the thing it contemplates;
Neither to change nor falter nor repent;
This, like thy glory, Titan! is to be
Good, great and joyous, beautiful and free;
This is alone Life; Joy, Empire, and Victory!" - Prometheus Unbound

>>14756365
>Nothing the gods have done actually make them DESERVE worship,

Create the world, create races, keep the multiverse running, defend the multiverse from abyssal horrors from the stars, defend the multiverse from insane horrors from the Far Realm, manipulate the Blood War when it still lasted, care for followers as much as possible across infinite planes, seal archhorrors that cannot be killed, be bros and broginas except the bastard ones like Cyric.

>>14756451
Unless, of course, that is what they are, and the gods, after getting BUTTMAD, realized "hey, we could use this trick to give powers to people who suck our cock"

>>14756433
Mystra is unusual since she maintained the Weave, which was explicitly its own thing, as opposed to there being, say, a unified field theory for hate and tyranny (say, for Bane). Mystra can neuter your magical power, but Azuth can't neuter your ability ro read books or Bane your ability to be a hateful asshole.

>>14756433
I have made arguments for both cases, but it's best that you define one avenue or the other before this goes further. The counter-argument differs depending on which it is.

For the sake of simplicity, we will assume that you have a universe where the gods ensure natural law continues to function.

Now, does this necessitate worship? No. The people at the power plant keep the power running, without which you'd be without computers, internet, refrigeration, light, heat, and easy medical care, among other things. Do we worship the manager of the power plant? Of course not.

Moreover, do we even NEED gods to do it? Sure, someone has to be in the position. But what stops them from simply making a few rules and having nature guide itself? A true god would be able to have their domain run on automatic, rather than manually operate the weather and tree growth.

If the domains can run on auto - why bother with the gods at all?

The answer is fear. Fear that they will get angry with you and turn off the water. Turn off the sun. Kill your crops and cut off your magical healing.

A good god shouldn't NEED worship. But if they do, and the universe needs them to exist - who has the real power? The gods, or the mortals?

The answer is the mortals. It is their worship that lets the gods live or die. The gods do not deserve worship because of fear. They deserve worship because they serve the interests of mortals. And that is only true in the same way that you need to pay money to keep the power on.

Except - the gods don't serve mortals. They DO rule by fear.

They - and the system they represent - is inherently evil. They can, should, and must be replaced by gods who set up their domains to run on their own, and then retire their power.

>>14755699
source of this picture?

>>14756476
>Create the world,

Wizards can also make worlds. Moreover, there is an infinite amount of space already suitable for inhabitation.

>create races,

If they created races they obviously don't need worship

>keep the multiverse running,

The multiverse was there first, doesn't need help.

>defend the multiverse from abyssal horrors from the stars, defend the multiverse from insane horrors from the Far Realm,

"make their followers do it" is more accurate

>care for followers as much as possible across infinite planes,

You mean "permit their clerics to use their own spellcasting abilities to help followers if they feel like it." The gods only intervene for speshul snowflakes

>seal archhorrors that cannot be killed,

Can't comment on this one, how many archhorrors are unkillable by the gods? really?

>be bros and broginas except the bastard ones like Cyric.

"suck my toes for the pitiful scraps from my table, or be tortured for all eternity" is not being a bro, sorry.

>>14756434

I disagree on the condition 'expect you to worship', as I have my doubts that a CG/CN God seriously expects you to show up to church, and you'd only pick one who does want you to show if you in fact quite LIKE going to church.

However, you answered all my points fairly and clearly thought about them; I feel this fluff question irreconciable (as it's actually pretty vague on which one of us is in the right here in canon) so I have no further things to discuss or consider.

>>14756499
> But what stops them from simply making a few rules and having nature guide itself?
Ao. Also whatever ultrapowerful demon / outer things that try to fuck with the world. Perhaps there's a greater metaphysical law that states a god cannot self-terminate and someone has to be at the head of the concept as long as it exists.

Incidently, there's another point. Without the gods to pick up the souls in the afterlife, the demons will go on a feeding frenzy. I always saw the whole God-worshiper FR bargain as less "worship someone or get stuck in the Wall" stick approach and more "worhips someone, get a sweet afterlife, and don't get turned into demon chow".

>>14756476
>Create the world, create races,
Why do they deserve worship for this? Let's say you create a computer program. You create a world for them. You are their creator. Do you deserve worship for this act? Will you send the souls of those that do not worship you to eternal torment?

After all, you created them. Isn't worship the least you deserve? As you watch them burn, will you pat yourself on the back, and listen to their praise, asking, "Am I not a kind and loving god?"

>keep the multiverse running,
A *god* shouldn't have to run the universe on manual, unless they *want* to do so.

>defend the multiverse from abyssal horrors from the stars, defend the multiverse from insane horrors from the Far Realm, manipulate the Blood War when it still lasted,
Mortal mages have done just as much, if not more than the gods in these respects. That's sad, considering the power disparity.

>care for followers as much as possible across infinite planes,
But fuck the guys that worship other guys or are faithless. The other guy's worshipers? They're gonna get spitted like pigs when the war ends. The faithless? First against the wall. If they didn't want to end up tortured and dissolving into nothingness, they should have worshiped the god of fancy widgets.

>seal archhorrors that cannot be killed,
PC's make a regular habit of killing archhorrors that cannot be killed.

> be bros and broginas except the bastard ones like Cyric.
Except to those dirty faithless, that is.

>>14754532
1: The wall of the faithless is a Faerunian concept only. It does not apply to Oerth or Krynn or Eberron or any other setting.

2: In most other campaign settings you need not worship a god to have access to divine power.

3: Magic in other settings aren't always regulated by a god/goddess

4: If your DM approves you may reflavor the class to not be evil. The books are there a guidelines not hard rules that must be adhered to at all times.

>>14756579
5: Not all clerics of other gods demand/require a donation for healing. Many gods actually want their clerics to heal people free of charge. The only thing that requires money is resurrection which requires a very expensive gem to cast.

>>14756499
Question: How would you respond if a player or DM tried to shoehorn evangelical Christianity into a D&D game?

Probably pretty pissed, right? And rightly so. So what makes you think it's alright for you to do that with your own beliefs about religion?

Don't answer that; it's a rhetorical question, and I don't want to turn this thread into a religious-debate shitstorm any worse than it already is.

But my point is, is it really that hard to put your IRL beliefs to the side for a bit and just play a game without nitpicking the setting to pieces? If the game calls for a setting with gods that rely on worship for existence and upon which reality is dependent to run smoothly, is it really that hard to accept it? Particularly given that any argument you can make to justify overthrowing the gods can be countered by simply stating "no, that simply doesn't work in this world", it seems like a futile endeavour.

Countless theists are able to separate IRL and IC religious convictions; is it so much to ask that atheists/deists/agnostics do the same?

as someone points out it depends upon the metaphysics of the world.
In FR and planescape it could be argued that the gods have done nothing to deserve worship.
Or it could be argued that the gods provide a service and that worship a rather light payment for the service provided by the god (most gods expend energy to answer prays etc).

Of course that is just one of many metaphysics, especially with gods that are tied to concepts (ie a god of justice). What is the relationship between the persona and the concept? that relationship can determine what the appropriate reaction to the persona is

>>14756499
>Now, does this necessitate worship? No. The people at the power plant keep the power running, without which you'd be without computers, internet, refrigeration, light, heat, and easy medical care, among other things. Do we worship the manager of th
e power plant? Of course not.

Yes or no, depends on the setting, if yes then we have nothing to talk about, if no then there might be another reason why they do it.

>Moreover, do we even NEED gods to do it? Sure, someone has to be in the position. But what stops them from simply making a few rules and having nature guide itself?

There is no retry button in case the multiverse crashes from a bug. Also replace god with manager of the power plant. Do we need a manager to have the power plant working. Damn right.

>A true god would be able to have their domain run on automatic, rather than manually operate the weather and tree growth.

Says who? Also if it was possible then wouldn't the gods do it to get some free time aside from being powerful multidimensional personifications of concepts?

>If the domains can run on auto - why bother with the gods at all?

Someone needs to keep it running, thats the whole point.

>The answer is fear. Fear that they will get angry with you and turn off the water. Turn off the sun. Kill your crops and cut off your magical healing.

No gods on the Dark Sun planet. Worked out swell. Sigil is also a wonderful place. Far Realm lacks them too.

>A good god shouldn't NEED worship. But if they do, and the universe needs them to exist - who has the real power? The gods, or the mortals?

The gods as preordained by the mortals, another god will fill in the position of the god in question should the pervious one perish from cosmic battles or being forgotten and whatnot. Just like democracy, you vote for the president.

>>14756570
Okay, that's cool bro.

>>14756573
Ao is the root of all problems, and needs to die. The gods can't fight him because they get their power from him. Yet more reason they are not truly divine. Yet who COULD fight him? Mortals, who do not derive their power from him, but instead from themselves, and other universes he did not create.

>Incidently, there's another point. Without the gods to pick up the souls in the afterlife, the demons will go on a feeding frenzy. I always saw the whole God-worshiper FR bargain as less "worship someone or get stuck in the Wall" stick approach and more "worhips someone, get a sweet afterlife, and don't get turned into demon chow".

The gods are not really necessary for this. Mortal souls do most of the heavy lifting when it comes to fighting the demon and devil hordes anyway. Powerful enough mortals can take the place of the gods in holding back the biggest threats in any event.

Really, the gods ARE just powerful mortals. The only difference is that their replacements wouldn't demand worship for it.

>>14756608
I'm not the other guy, who said he was an athiest.

And FYI, I play my characters any number of ways. I just like this argument because it's fun.

>>14756632
>Ao is the root of all problems, and needs to die.
I find this response rather humorous, especially coupled with all the arguments based on the Walls existence, since I'm pretty sure the 4th Ed. version of the FR did get rid of both.

So.... you won? Unless my knowledge of the revised Realms is incorrect.

>>14756685
Of course we did. But that's like saying dragons need to be slain. Of course they need mad slaying. It should be like dragonpocalypse up in here.

But it wouldn't be any fun if there weren't any dragons to slay.

I like settings where it's inherently unfair like that, because it gives me a dragon to slay. I *Like* that the gods are arguably evil dicks, because it gives me a reason to fight them.

Sure, you can play a game without those flaws. But really, it's less fun. I'd rather work with them, to create an epic story of mortals raging against the heavens to fight injustice done by their so-called protectors.

>>14756576
>Why do they deserve worship for this? Let's say you create a computer program. You create a world for them. You are their creator. Do you deserve worship for this act? Will you send the souls of those that do not worship you to eternal torment?

Lets say you are a parent. You make children. You build a home for them. You are their mom and dad. Do you deserve thanks for this? Will you punish them when they start setting the house on fire?

>A *god* shouldn't have to run the universe on manual, unless they *want* to do so.

No single god has the power to control the multiverse on a minute level at all times constantly. Only Ao's master can do that. The DM. Thats THE 'God' you're talking about. Again, punch the DM in the dick if you want to set the realm free of the tyranny of the divine.

>But fuck the guys that worship other guys or are faithless. The other guy's worshipers? They're gonna get spitted like pigs when the war ends. The faithless? First against the wall. If they didn't want to end up tortured and dissolving into nothingness

Other guy's followers. Okay, there is a house next door, there is a pair of adults living there who hate your guts for one reason or the other, and their kids throw molotov cocktails at your house. Will you tell your kids to try to sort this out while you keep the fires down or do you all burn to death?

Plus the mortals usually stir their own shit without the need of divine interference.
Faithless: Okay, you have a kid, who hates you because he doesn't want to be the 'creation' or something, so he runs away from home while leaving the front door wide open in his haste, letting all the roving tarrasques wander into the house. You let this keep happening or do you tell your kids to stop leaving the door open?

>PC's make a regular habit of killing archhorrors that cannot be killed.

Go kill the Lady of Pain. Good job killing Vecna. Go clean out the Far Realm.

>>14756624
>Yes or no, depends on the setting, if yes then we have nothing to talk about, if no then there might be another reason why they do it.
So you DO worship the manager of your power plant?

>There is no retry button in case the multiverse crashes from a bug. Also replace god with manager of the power plant. Do we need a manager to have the power plant working. Damn right.
Sure, we need a manager. But a manager doesn't demand worship to keep the power plant running. A god shouldn't demand worship to keep the sun rising in the sky.

>Says who? Also if it was possible then wouldn't the gods do it to get some free time aside from being powerful multidimensional personifications of concepts?
If you are a true god, you are the master of your domain. Your power over it is absolute. If this is the case, you should be able to set things to automatic. They do not, therefore they CANNOT. They are nothing more than glorified mortals demanding worship.

>Someone needs to keep it running, thats the whole point.
Someone who doesn't demand worship can do the job just as well.

>No gods on the Dark Sun planet. Worked out swell. Sigil is also a wonderful place. Far Realm lacks them too.
I didn't say the plant should be without managers, but that the managers shouldn't demand worship. Sigil is actually a decent place in that respect - the Lady of Pain doesn't allow worship of her. She stays out of everyone's affairs, so long as they stay out of hers. Gods don't try to run things, and the Athar are free to do as they like. Sigil IS actually a decent enough place.

>The gods as preordained by the mortals, another god will fill in the position of the god in question should the pervious one perish from cosmic battles or being forgotten and whatnot. Just like democracy, you vote for the president.
The president doesn't demand that I pray to him and sacrifice a goat to him every sunday. There's a major difference here.

Now I'm going to take a nap.

>>14756818
>Sure, we need a manager. But a manager doesn't demand worship to keep the power plant running. A god shouldn't demand worship to keep the sun rising in the sky.
Don't know about you but I live on my own and every 2 months the power company sends me a bill for electricity I used. I can always refuse to pay but that has negative side effects.

>>14756722
>I *Like* that the gods are arguably evil dicks, because it gives me a reason to fight them.
Oh. Well, I don't. The games I've played in tend to end far before the PCs get anywhere near that power level, and they aren't set in FR anyway.

Shit, go play Ravenloft. The Powers That Be aren't even arguably evil, they're straight up dicks there.

>>14756608

>But my point is, is it really that hard to put your IRL beliefs to the side for a bit and just play a game without nitpicking the setting to pieces?

I like how you seem to think that we're not all simply having fun debating the philosophical quandaries of religion in Faerun. I don't know about you and I technically can't speak for everyone here, but this topic is endlessly entertaining for me.

Nitpicking is fun! If it wasn't, /tg/ would have about 90% less traffic than it does right now.

>>14756818
>Sure, we need a manager. But a manager doesn't demand worship to keep the power plant running.

No, he needs pay, respect and a sense of fulfilment to keep up with the bullshit of his employees who are constantly having swordfights with rods of uranium which is kinda badass but generally more destructive.

>A god shouldn't demand worship to keep the sun rising in the sky.

A manager shouldn't demand pay for keeping the nuclear powerplant from going meltdown?

>If you are a true god, you are the master of your domain. Your power over it is absolute. If this is the case, you should be able to set things to automatic.

Yes, if we are playing D&D YHWH edition. We are not.

>Someone who doesn't demand worship can do the job just as well.

So any employee can be the manager (totally doesn't need skills or something) and will do it for free? Forever. Without fault. Or the need to buy stuff for himself like food.

>I didn't say the plant should be without managers, but that the managers shouldn't demand worship. Sigil is actually a decent place in that respect - the Lady of Pain doesn't allow worship of her.

A chaotic multidimensional deathtrap constantly on the brink of ruin. Plus its never been said that her no-worship stance is because she is all for atheism. It was said that Sigil may or may not be her prison where she was locked up before the start of time.

>She stays out of everyone's affairs, so long as they stay out of hers. Gods don't try to run things, and the Athar are free to do as they like. Sigil IS actually a decent enough place.

Blinds anyone who looks at her weirdly, flays people without regard.

>The president doesn't demand that I pray to him and sacrifice a goat to him every sunday. There's a major difference here.

No, he demands his pay and the support of the people or else he can't do his job and the whole place goes to shit.

>>14756413
>On the other hand since the gods will wither and die without worship for sustenance it's not necessarily immoral of them to set up an incentive system that makes it in everyone on the plane's best interest to worship someone.

Nor is it immoral for the mortals to resist taking part in this system or wishing to destroy it completely.

Or is it immoral for a rabbit to refuse to feed a fox?

>>14756920
>comparing giving thanks and respect to being eaten
yes, this makes total sense.
Oh wait, I'm on PCP.

>>14756725

>Lets say you are a parent. You make children. You build a home for them. You are their mom and dad. Do you deserve thanks for this? Will you punish them when they start setting the house on fire?

I'd wager "setting the house on fire" is not a very apt comparison to "does not want to worship you", wouldn't you agree?

>Faithless: Okay, you have a kid, who hates you because he doesn't want to be the 'creation' or something, so he runs away from home while leaving the front door wide open in his haste, letting all the roving tarrasques wander into the house. You let this keep happening or do you tell your kids to stop leaving the door open?

Not all faithless hate gods.

>Go kill the Lady of Pain. Good job killing Vecna. Go clean out the Far Realm.

I don't see the Gods trying to do any of those things either.

>>14756953
>I'd wager "setting the house on fire" is not a very apt comparison to "does not want to worship you", wouldn't you agree?

The outcome is similar. Lots of ruins, burnt corpses and despair.

>Faithless: Okay, you have a kid, who hates you because he doesn't want to be the 'creation' or something, so he runs away from home while leaving the front door wide open in his haste, letting all the roving tarrasques wander into the house. You let this keep happening or do you tell your kids to stop leaving the door open?

Not all faithless go into the wall.

>I don't see the Gods trying to do any of those things either.

The Lady is still in Sigil. Vecna is dead (again, lol failure). The Far Realm is still the Far Realm, not the whole multiverse.

>>14756973
>>Faithless: Okay, you have a kid, who hates you because he doesn't want to be the 'creation' or something, so he runs away from home while leaving the front door wide open in his haste, letting all the roving tarrasques wander into the house. You let this keep happening or do you tell your kids to stop leaving the door open?

Replace this with

>Not all faithless hate gods.

Its 1am, I'm sleepy.

>>14756940
>>comparing giving thanks and respect to being eaten
>yes, this makes total sense.
>Oh wait, I'm on PCP.

What is the difference? Either the god dies because it doesn't get worship or the fox dies because it doesn't get food. Either the mortal is condemned to eternal suffering or non-existence for not "feeding" the god or the rabbit is eaten by the fox. However the rabbit has more freedom than the mortal. The rabbit can run away and the fox cannot cast eternal judgment on it.

My beef with gods if I existed in one of these settings would be that of judgement. Only mortals should judge mortals and there should be no afterlife.

>>14757043
>What is the difference? Either the god dies because it doesn't get worship or the fox dies because it doesn't get food. Either the mortal is condemned to eternal suffering or non-existence for not "feeding" the god or the rabbit is eaten by the fox. However the rabbit has more freedom than the mortal. The rabbit can run away and the fox cannot cast eternal judgment on it.

Not all gods need worship. And most gods are not the FIRE AND BRIMSTONE ETERNAL DAMNATION kinds of gods.

>My beef with gods if I existed in one of these settings would be that of judgement. Only mortals should judge mortals and there should be no afterlife.

So you would be an atheist thinking this is an atheist setting. Also look around you, you think these people are better suited to decide who is right and who is wrong then people who have originally set all the things that are in place and whom are as impartial as it can get?

>>14757043
I am downloading new facepalm jpgs just for this statement. You have driven me to this.

I say again, if the act of bending down on one knee and saying "yo, thanks for harvest and shit" seems to you identical to the sensation of being bitten, chewed and swallowed, you must be on a powerful hallucinogen

>>14756725
>Go kill the Lady of Pain. Good job killing Vecna. Go clean out the Far Realm.

Sure. I was bored anyway.

This thread is the best explanation I've ever seen for how dictators stay in power.

>>14754822
This. A thousand times this. Why did this thread go beyond this post? Yes: There are prestige classes that do things that aren't good or evil. And Yes: Those classes often times belong to orders that ARE good or evil. A thief of Olamandara must worship that diety. The abilities could apply equally as well to someone who worships a different god. But tough shit.

Thank god the DMG, Player's Handbook and half the splat books out there say: "MODIFY THIS TO SUIT YOUR CAMPAIGN; YOUR DM TAKES PRIORITY OVER US. THESE ARE SUGGESTIONS!"

Any DM who plays ANY system EXACTLY AS WRITTEN is doing it wrong. Unless its campaign modules in a very set-in-stone setting. And that gets boring to some.

rolled 1 = 1

>and whom are as impartial as it can get?

The D&D gods are far from impartial, as long as you're talking about ones that are not Ao.

>>14757137
The thing is that there are quite valid examples to what happens when you remove these 'dictators' (not that some of them AREN'T exactly like dictators but still), you harm the very concept they embody, and their total removal leads to the world sinking into ever deeper shit till it ends itself.

A dictator leads something for his own sake using others and only defers to his own judgement. Gods are in some part embodiments of the concepts of mortals and individuals working in concert with eachother and powerful mortals and their wast churches.

>>14756973

>The outcome is similar. Lots of ruins, burnt corpses and despair.

That would be the fault of the mortals in question, not because they don't worship the Gods. Sometimes the price of total freedom is having to deal with your mistakes instead of hoping some blusterous entity will come down from on high to bail you out.

As for all the "Gods have no right" arugments: The gods in these settings almost always create us. They give us their power. And they risk their lives protecting us from the other gods. They look over us and we have direct and physical proof of this via clerics and divination spells. Your race's deity is usually not your enemy and, unlike IRL anti-dietists who believe God is being a total dick by forcingus to believe in him, belief in a deity doesn't mean dick when only a single being out of thousands chooses to no longer believe.

That and many of the deities were themselves mortals. So saying that only mortals should judge mortals is silly--the gods themselves can be killed (so are therefore mortal) and are merely titles applied to mortals with enough divinity points and the right outlook on life.

>>14757168
>The D&D gods are far from impartial, as long as you're talking about ones that are not Ao.

Concerning mortals and their ideals they are more impartial then other mortals. Kelemvor will take the aspects of your life into detail but will ultimately judge you based on your actions.You were a dick? You go with the dicks down below. You were a good guy? Enjoy Celestia. You are a druidic shaman who aimed for neutrality? You become a spirit of nature.

Now of course if you ask Bane on what he thinks of the concept of Love and then ask Mordain what he thinks of the virtues of goblins... But they are impartial towards individuals except if they are extremely exceptional. Whom people tend to be in the middle of things being very not impartial incidentally.

>>14757172

>you harm the very concept they embody, and their total removal leads to the world sinking into ever deeper shit till it ends itself.

How many gods who "embody a concept" have been around from the very beginning? If Ao is the Overgod, does he not hold all these concepts within himself? Did the concepts not exist until a God rose to claim the title, or are they simply powered by the concept in question? The multiverse still existed when it was just Ao pallin' around, right?

>>14757176
They don't need to come down on high to bail us out. They need to stay on high defending us from the other deities. Almost all the deities (especially since almost every major non-human humanoid evil race has one) wants to kill us (us referring to the PC races). And that's JUST the gods. The greater demons are an entirely different threat...

The gods in DnD are a thousand times more just than the God in our world from most viewpoints: they stifle the idea that our God is punishing us by not allowing us to know, for certain, that he exists.

>>14757195
The multiverse did not exist as we knew it. The idea was thought up, and a god was born. As the idea grew in strength, the God did as well, until the god could act in the idea's name. However, the link goes both ways.

>>14757172
One could just make a demiplane that doesn't have those rules and Mass Gate everyone out. Simply upgrading to a basic Great Wheel afterlife would be an improvement for all involved parties.

If the world is so fucked that killing evil harms those who are good, then replace the world.

>>14757193
Yeah but would mrotals be able to ascend to celestia (or go anywhere, for that matter) if the gods didn't exist? Its not like they block the gates or anything...well unless your in the 0.000001% of the population with enough skill, power, talent, luck and time to invest in figuring out how to cast a spell that allows for planar travelling.

But everyone just deciding to live the rest of their lives in eternal paradise would make an incredibly boring campaign setting. Especially if the demons are allowed to come in and languish in the eternal pleasures as well.

>My beef with gods if I existed in one of these settings would be that of judgement. Only mortals should judge mortals and there should be no afterlife.
You're within your rights to believe that.

Personally, I don't like the very concept of magic. Of course, if I was in one of these settings I wouldn't hold dear the idea that me not beliving in magic would make a magic missile to the face would be any less painful.

>>14757213
God(s) are bound by logic. There are many theologeons even in our world who believes God is simply doing "the best he can given the logical state of things". Absolute power is still limited by the idea of power. Power cannot do what cannot be done--but it can do anything else.

That being said: creating a demi-plane with rules that include immortality is not something that can be done, by RAW, in d20/3.5. And you can't gate everyone--there are plenty of beings with permanent dimensional anchors. And there are things that the gods protect us from that don't have minds, morals or even the ability to stop killing...but I suppose you'd just leave those behind and hope to god they don't eventually stumble on some artifact or planar-rip that lets them reach wherever it is that the athiests decide to go because "we don't want to worships deities".

>>14757213
Would take MILLIONS of years of casting the level 9 Genesis "Create world/plane" spell to create a new planet. Remember, it only does 180 feet, takes up 5k xp per casting and each casting takes a full week of casting that one spell.

Yeah.

The Crystal Spheres where most settings are in? They're several billion miles in diameter.

>>14757221

>I wouldn't hold dear the idea that me not beliving in magic would make a magic missile to the face would be any less painful.

...Now I want to make a class whose ability is to disbelieve in things so strongly, that they actually diminish or nullify their effects. Don't believe in magic? Spell resistance! Don't believe in poison? Immunity! Don't believe in rocks? Bludgeoning damage resistance!

With the final class ability being a mobile Somebody Else's Problem Field.

>>14757235
>One can just make a demi-plane
>Just make a demi-plane
>Just

Yeah, isn't that a +1 meta-magic feat? Or is it a +1 epic level spell seed? Or an artifact? Or a template? Or a divinity point power? No...no. You can't just make a plane with your own rules capable of supporting the life force of a naturally occurring plane of existence. The closest thing are items that make sub-planes with extremely limited space that usually have extremely limited amounts of time one can spend in them. And you can't make up your own rules within the plane--they are usually preset based on the limitations of the magic that made the plane.

If you had that power: yes, you could argue for it. But its not a matter of >Just

>>14757259
I wonder what that DR would look like. It wouldn't be DR/Bludgeoning since it only prevents Bludgeoning. I guess "DR/Everything Except Bludgeoning."

>>14757235
Not a problem. If you're enough of a badass to punch a hole through the Deep Ethereal all the way to Oerth (where your fate in the afterlife is based on what flag you fly and how tall you are) and make a demiplane there, then you're enough of a badass to kill whatever scares the gods.

>>14757235

>God(s) are bound by logic

Eh, maybe, maybe not. You know how people ask if God could make a rock so heavy even he could lift it? The answer is "Yes. And then he'd lift it."

That said, this is God with a capital G being omnipotent. Ao would probably fall under this category. Smaller gods in a polytheistic setting probably would be more limited by logic.

>>14757251
There's a class in complete divine that can cast a spell without any components, although it might be limited per day. Then divine meta-magic...toss in Extend, Twin, Repeat and every other reworded "cast it twice" metamagic in existence...your only up to maybe 24x normal strength Genesis a day...but its something.

I also think there are rules in BoVD for killing intelligent beings as XP substitutes while crafting. Make a scroll of [above spell]...of course your plane would be founded on the deaths of millions...

>>14757275

"I don't believe in Damage Resistance or Armor Class!"

>Suddenly everyone in the area of effect loses all their resistances. And possibly their clothes. And skin.

>>14757262
Something or other Creation. Level 9 spell. Spell Compendium

>>14757301
>...of course your plane would be founded on the deaths of millions...
But at least it would be God Free, and that's all that realy matters in the end.

>>14757300
As a philosophy student, that answer is wrong. The answer is simply "no and no". God has to be bound by logic so long as humans lack the ability to reason without logic. Mind you that this answer applies only to our state right now at the time I'm writing this question, for the species that includes myself and the logicians that form the standards for logical reasoning in this era.

Really its not even thinking of God as being "bound" by logic so much as existing logically. If he is capable of the illogical he no longer logically exists. Since he is god and therefore all powerful, he must exist in a world where he is all powerful BECAUSE not existing is a sign of powerlessness. And because God is defined as a being that exists by those who believe god exists.

>>14757329
Unless someone starts worshipping you.

Then you have to start killing them.

Then you become the lady of pain.

>>14757310
A Wizard can learn it if he finds it on a scroll. A scroll that he can Wish for.

>>14757251
You don't need an entire Universe, you just need a continent that supports life. Easily done with the help of a Simulacrum or twenty.

You could also just find a doldrum on the NEP or a PMP bubble on the Plane of Fire. It doesn't need to be an actual demiplane.

My belief on the legitimacy of the gods is the same as my belief on the legitimacy of the state: might makes right. I don't actually believe that might genuinely makes right, but it ultimately doesn't matter if what they do is right or not, since they have the might to get away with it. It's the only objective claim to legitimacy that they possess and one that's very difficult to contest.

>>14757363
Still pretty sad that the best that MOST POWERFUL WIZARD EVAR can do, namely spending every waking moment and ounce of power to create a small hole to hide in, still pales in comparison to the power of some minor grain growth goddess of some farming village with a population of less than 100. Method of worship? Harvesting grain and saying "Yep, good harvest this year."

>>14757363
This is, of course, only if these answers are available in this setting. Core d20 doesn't support this. WotC materials aren't automagically universally acceptible. Otherwise you could do ANYTHING since the DMG says you can make your own base/prestige class with some EXTREMELY loose guidelines.

>>14757389
That describes feudalism, which was an oppressive system that we are lucky to have escaped. Modern nation-states start with Leviathan and end with the social contract we enjoy today.

Feudalism is hard to escape in D&D, since power is concentrated in the hands of individuals instead of armies controlled by those individuals and the march of progress is impeded by magic, but escaping it is a good thing in almost every possible way.

>>14757409
The potential power of 101 beings is greater than that of the unlocked potential of a single. That's unfair? The gods are almost parasitic lifeforms in that their power is directly linked to their worshipers.

And in the end, those 100 followers probably have higher "soul power" (see: Charisma) than the god-wizard (assuming base 10).

>>14757432
It describes all states. You can truss it up with notions of a social contract (entirely relative to each individual and up to each individual to decide when the state has violated it), but if you don't agree with the actions of a state as guided by the majority in a democratic system and choose to go against this consensus, you're forced back into line via force, the same as with any other government.

>>14757432
Its hard to not have feudalism in a world where one can prove themselves significantly more powerful than another without the use of tools usable by anyone with reasonable amounts of training.

That is: even the most "powerful" beings in the real world are quite limited. In DnD: they are so much stronger that its no surprise that feudalism is the way to go. Besides: the biggest problem with Feudalism is in passing the power to someone who will abuse it. Not all feudal rulers will abuse their power--despite the fact that most (like 99% of them) will (eventually).

But the gods are eternal. So Divine Providence becomes a little...stronger.

>>14757461
Unless your in a state that allows for the exploration of individual values within segregated subcultures within the state. Although these 'states' usually only exist as sets of tribes in which different family values are permitted since the small number of people generally stresses a larger push towards a single community value...

Ok I don't even know where I'm going with this anymore.

>>14757463
>>14757461
stop this. I just finished my last final in political theory and I don't want to think about Foucault's concept of power again for at least another month

Back to Ops question:

If you stel from an evil god, your using the powers of evil. Then your evil.

If you steal from a good god, your lowering good's power to fight against evil AND your stealing from the good. Then your evil.

>>14757389

It's funny, and I think some people of my faith would take issue with it, but I agree 'good' is a matter of opinion, but when it comes down to it some opinions are more 'right' than others. Especially when those opinions shape the very stuff of being and non-being, been and was not, will be, and shall never.

Or as you said, 'Might Make Right'. Does that make me the humble servitor of a power beyond my kenning? Am I the plaything at the mercy of some tyrant, hollow and meaningless without his express will? Obviously.

Yet if this is true, what right does the creation have to judge it's creator? When I write a story, or draw a picture, what rights do the characters have? None, I may do with them as I see fit, Their opinions, and the ability to have them are mere extensions of my will, their environment, past, and future are mine.

Some are heroes and others are villains, some are backgrounders, or scenery. I love them all in a way, for they are my creations. Yet the heros shall defeat the villains, becasue I will it, and they cannot decide otherwise.

Can the villains blame me for their deeds? Saying "No, it was you who forced me, you have decided everything I have done, you are to blame, you must be punished"

No. They are a character, and I am the writer. They are the work and I am the Artist.

I will give honor to whom I give honor, glory to whom I give glory, justice upon those I wish justice, and mercy...

I will will give mercy to whom I wish.

>>14757411
What are you talking about? The NEP is core and it has places in it that don't instantly kill you. Those places are inhabited by people who want to live in peace, protected by obscurity and the harshness of space.

>>14757409
As soon as a Wizard gets access to Blasphemy, Harvest Gods everywhere are fucked. Doubly so if that Wizard is actually an Ur-Priest.

/tg/ - Metaphysical philosophy

This makes me want to go play D&D again, but ever since I had to kill my last DM and bury him out in the desert, it just hasn't been the same.

>>14757570
Your analogy fails because literary creations are non-entities. Your characters do not exist as entities, they exist as concepts and ideas devoid of qualia or agency.

Unless the Gods are literally unaware that the mortals they toy with have feelings and desires, then the analogy of "what rights do fictional characters have before their author?" is entirely meaningless in any discussion of theology be it IRL or in the confines of a fictional universe.

>>14757624
>As soon as a Wizard gets access to Blasphemy, Harvest Gods everywhere are fucked. Doubly so if that Wizard is actually an Ur-Priest.
Aaaand... you just answered op's "Ur-Priests - Why so Evil?" question.

It is because you steal power equally from good and evil deities alike for what in most cases are your own ends.

At best, you are attempting to do good with it, but are guilty of enormous hubris for assuming that you can use good gods' power better than they can. Were you actually capable of it, you could ASK, and the good gods would surely give it to you. If not the more conservative religions, than certainly the CG ones, who just want you to do good indiscriminately.

Basically, you're stealing from a charitable organization with the intention of doing charity, except that you've got fewer resources, less manpower, and less perspective. I wouldn't say it's evil, just fucking stupid.

Meanwhile, everything except stealing from the gods with the best of intentions of unfathomably evil. You're not just making yourself stronger at the expense of others, you are creating a DEFICIT of goodness in the multiverse for your own personal gain.

>>14757773
I'm sure one could make the case for all of us being non-entities in actuality. Predestination does kind of entail this by default.

>>14756913
Worship does NOT equal respect. It is worship.

It is bowing before someone else, saying how wonderful and powerful they are, and admitting their power over you as an insignificant mortal.

There is the core issue with all of your arguments. You seem to believe worship is a proper way of showing respect. It is not. Respect is a thing given between equals. Worship is given between masters and slaves.

>>14757803
Any Ur-Priest worth his salt is also going to use Holy Word on the Gods of Famine.

Ur-Priests would be evil most likely because they have a backstory in the context of the expansion they were introduced in. The brilliance of it is all those passages in the DM's guide that give you amazing freedom to make the sorts of changes you think are appropriate.

>>14757966
Well, PrCs aren't even real classes. How PrCs are supposed to work is that Mister Cavern makes a PrC that is both effective and tailor-made to your character concept. What actually happens is that lazy MCs allow PrCs right out of the book because very few MCs are engaged in helping players build their characters.

Could someone tell me why Ur-priest is such a good class? I don't understand why so many people like it? Could someone please explain?

what would you use to break the wall ?

>>14758134

4th Edition.

>>14758061
1.) Flavor
2.) Fast Track Spellcasting to Level 9 Spells
3.) Its in a "Complete" book, and therefore considered a notch-higher in the "canon" than most other SPLAT books (but still lower than the compendiums and core books, of course).

Something that needs to be mentioned is that because PrC requirements only apply to entrance into the PrC and not to progression in it, being a Good Ur-Priest is only one Atonement away. You can even cast the Atonement yourself if you happen to be [Good].

>>14758134
Demons can apparently steal souls from the Wall, so you can bind a bunch of them and run interference for them.

>>14758061
It puts you on the fast track to 9th level spellcasting and comes with some neat class features. Like the ability to steal a Genie's ability to grant wishes to mortals.

Pity the class sucks so hard, though. Domain spells are the shit.

>>14758134
A better question might be what you intend to do with the souls afterwards. We've already established that none of the other gods want them, and they were already offered Hell, so they've got to go... Somewhere. Where?

>>14758297
The multiverse is a large place. Literally infinite. There's plenty of places they could go, assuming you can't just magic up a demiplane.

>>14758297
Souls are very fungible in D&D land. Assuming the universe doesn't fall apart because the wall is gone, you could do anything you want from giving them day jobs to using them as bricks in another wall, one with perhaps some greater utility than scaring the crap out of people.

>>14758239
You must maintain all the prerequisites of a PrC, just as you must maintain the alignment requirements of a base class, or lose all of the abilities of that class.

>>14758297
Raise them or toss them into a Sphere of Annihilation. Either is better than being in the Wall.

>>14758329
>The multiverse is a large place. Literally infinite. There's plenty of places they could go, assuming you can't just magic up a demiplane.
They were in the wall because they quite literally had no where to go in the infinite multiverse. Magicing up a demiplane is like saying you can bucket a flood. It'll fill up the instant you finish casting. You don't seem to be grasping the scope of the problem you're creating.

>>14758346
What happens if a team of clerics just randomly cast raise dead at the wall all day? Or toss a sphere of annihilation at it?

>>14758367
Probably nothing. Unless Kelmvor wants somethign to happen.

>>14758344
That's trivially wrong, as Ur-Priests violate their own prerequisites by granting themselves divine casting.

Luckily, we can find out what the actual rules are by reading the DMG (which is the primary source for PrC rulings) or the SRD (which in this case is a good approximation).

>Unlike the basic classes, characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class.

So, you only have to meet the prerequisites when you first take the class.

>>14758362
Every inner plane has an infinite number of habitable planar bubbles. The NEP is actually the most analogous to the universe, so that's where I'd send them.

>>14758387
The Sage answered this in an old issue of Dragon Magazine. Basically you never lose prerequisetes from gaining class abilities but if you no longer meet the prerequisites of the class from some other fashion then you lose access to the class or feat or what have you. but gainign class abilities NEVER causes you to stop meeting the prerequisites of a prestige class or feat.

>>14758413
LEt me clarify.....

You never lose the prerequisties in a prestige class if you gain class features form that same prestige class.

>>14758367
Are you doing this from the infinity demons side or from the heavily fortified soul untold billions of epic level million year old paladins & clerics who USED to fight off the endless demon hordes spawnpoint side?

Either location has it's own logistical problems. On the one hand infinite demons. On the other a finite but exceedingly powerful force of veteran demon fighters who REALY don't want to go back to endlessly fighting demons.

Thinking about it, the demons would probably help if you could convey your goals. The location where ALL souls go when they die is probably something they'd really want access to.

>>14758437
Whichever you can get away with, really.

>>14758413
And the Sage (I'm assuming that this particular Sage is Skip Williams) is wrong, because the Sage makes up shit instead of looking at what the rules say. The DMG is the primary source, and the DMG says that you only need to meet the prereqs at first level. Everything that the Sage says after that is superfluous.

>>14758452
It wasn't skip. He actually used another class as an example. Dragon Disciple I think.

>>14758403
>>14758362
Right. Godly domains are finite. Habitable spots are not. Just because no god wanted them in their domain doesn't mean there isn't a place for them to live.

>So why do they need to be evil, if their pursuits are so good?
First, no one considers themselves a villain. Pretty much every villain is doing the right thing in their own minds. The fact remains that many are crazy, deluded, or so amoral that they just don't recognize the moral dilemma arising from their actions. That's why any DM should repeat to himself, as if a mantra, "just because you can justify it to yourself, it doesn't mean it's good."

Second, you're not just picking pockets here. Which -- unless you are giving it to the poor Robin Hood-style, including with the justification that you're stealing from people who already illegally claimed the same coin from someone else -- is also evil. You're disrupting the very order of nature. Just as you're creating an abomination against the very notion of life by creating undead, you're opposing the celestial order by trying to usurp the power of the gods themselves. Even if they are evil or you dislike them, they are still the authority over their domains, and their power is supposed to be beyond you and all other mortals. No one cares if you recognize this order or not. You're playing in a universe with objective moralities and real consequences to your morals and ethics. If you don't like it, play a different system without objective good and evil.

(side note: It's also phenomenally stupid. It's one thing or a god to delegate powers, but for an unaffiliated mortal to just take them? Without the formal protection of any other deity to deter the offended deities from making your life as miserable as it is short?)

>>14758452
>>14758489
Plus I might be remembering what he said wrong so take my words with a grain of salt. I have like a 3 or more year run of Dragon magazine. it'd be a pain in the ass to go look for it at the moment.

>>14758515
Well, the class description says they sip from many sources. I expect that if they took enough from anyone, they'd notice. Are you aware of all your blood, all the time? Do you never get a cut and not notice it until you physically see it? These things have MILLIONS and maybe BILLIONS of worshippers. They can't answer each prayer 'manually'.

>>14758599
>They can't answer each prayer 'manually'.
Being gods... yeah, they kind of can.

Regardless, how does that affect the moral component at all?

>>14758515
And what evidence is there to suggest that this arrangement does not exist to oppress the faithful and faithless alike? Who can say that the powers are not the cause of all the imbalance and misery in the world? Why worship these false gods when we can be free?

>>14758515
I think it's like those people who can steal all those "invisible" half cents that float around bank accounts and walk away several hundred thousand dollars richer.

>>14758610
No, they can't. Even a Greater God can only see 20 places at the same time. Lesser gods are even more restricted.

>>14758610
I didn't say it did. I was addressing your view of the gods as omnipotent and all knowing and ready to swat an ur-priest. D&D gods do have sharp limits on their powers. I know BG2 isn't canon, but it ends with Viconia going on a Crusade, getting otld by Lolth to fuck off and then going on to make Lolth quake in her spider-booties. Perfect example of.

>>14755421
How could you squeeze Arcane power into that? It just doesn't click for me.

>>14758677
Lolth had 66 hit points in 1e.

>>14758712
Good thing this is 2e, and regardless, she'd still a god. If you want to use that logic it simply makes it harder for the gods to kill ur-priests.

>>14755457
Yea. Remember in WoD's Wraith how the soulforge people into weapons? They at least lobotomise the poor fucks beforehand. You get thrown into the Wall fully aware. So horrid torture or Mega evil running around. Pick your doom. In fact people in the wall would choose mega evil just to spite Ao

>>14758725
Actually, the thread is about 3.5, so both examples don't really have any meaning as far as rules go. I was just making the point that killing gods and taking their stuff has always been a part of D&D.

The wall of faithless is a evil cultural remnant first envisioned in a time when only Faggots caught the AIDS, Lol Communism, and all atheists will burn in hell.

>>14758887
And yet it lasted until 4e came out.
Shit like this is why I have no problem with DMs having us play in unspecified generic fantasy worlds rather than sticking to an official game setting.