what're you needing to know about armour?

how to make it?

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/index.php

the historical research section will teach a fair bit too, though be warned that many members are SCA members and their idea of historical accuracy is sometimes questionable.

animated, shows the names for some parts.

roman, Lorica Segmentata, from the Corbridge find

Requesting pictures of indivudual parts, gonna make some myself.

and roman Lorica of the Newstead pattern.

both of these are idiot-proof to make. only note is to take care with shoulder hinges, they break easily on lorica.

Dat sexy gorget

Oh yeah check that polish on this sugar loaf baby

Gotta love them sugar loafs

pattern for a Wisby type coat of plates, circa 1320-1350.

the outer was either leather, or strong canvas linen, with the plates riveted into place.

very easy to make, most of the curving is in one plane so can be done by bending or rolling the plates.

>>14800641
Nah, I'm looking for a good history of its development, and if I can I'd love to find something about the practical side of matters. How to use it, how to defeat it, what worked against it and what didn't. You got anything that would touch all of the second subject, I'd love you forever for it.

and a second wisby coat of plates.
this one is slightly more modern (the wisby finds are all dated to 1361, but appear to have been a city guard, using slightly outdated equipment, none was cutting edge tech), being a style closely echoing the later 14th C brigandines.

these plates are esily manufactured, require little shaping. they're best done in 0.8mm spring steel, but 18ga mild steel will do for all but seriously heavy fighting.

>>14800787
forgot the pic, did'nt I? duh.

>>14800783
hah. you're not asking for much then?

erm, seriously, though. what you're asking is massive. as in, I've been studying this stuff for a decade, and have barely scratched the surface. you could fill a dozen threads just on the development, yet alone how to defeat it. people think "oh they wore armour for centuries, its all the same" but its not. there's a constant arms race going on from the roman era to the 17th C, and , with the exception of the periods of the 5th-8th C, and the 11th C, that's in a constant state of change. even 50 years can result in as much difference between soldier's kit, as there is between a soldier in the Gulf War, and in WW2.

>>14800845
dat kettle helmet

>>14800832
5th-8th is relatively consistent. maille hauberk and helm, armed with spear, roundsheild, and occasionally a sword,

11th is a transitional point, as that style of fighting was supplanted by the norman horseback. the technology shifts there to the shield (moved from round to kite) and then in details of the hardware. from the 12th C, thoughthe arms race picks up again though, with the new horseback armour direction

>>14800832
So I'm asking for the moon.

Well, in that case, if you know a good place to get a decent overview of this mess? At this point in time, I've got so little that wikipedia and what paltry things I've memorized on the road are two of my best sources. It'd be a nice thing to change that around.

coat of plates for Castle Hirschtein, Passau, circa 1350.

the other difficulty with explaining armour is, simply put, its not the same over europe. Scotland has distinct styles of armour compared to english of the same date. English is influenced by burgundian. italian export is entirely different to german. northen textile armours are very different again to southern. Baltic states are completely different to balkan. and so on.

>>14800912
Well, I guess I'll start throwing out some factoids. Factlets. Little baby facts that people can feel free to correct with proper citation and sources.

>plate requires larger forges than mail, because it's shaping a giant hunk of metal rather than a little piece, but is in general cheaper when in the form of munitions plate
>mail can be made with smaller forges, but also requires an incredible amount of man-hours to build simply because there are so many little rings to interlink
>plate and mail are highly slash-resistant, but mail is susceptible to piercing hits at the links depending on the quality of the riveting, and both are susceptible to crushing or bludgeoning damage

>>14800912
the armour archive forums linked above is the best start.
myarmoury.com is sometimes useful, but your milage may vary, as most people are fawning over albion swords.
the AAF (armsandarmourforum.com/) might be a help, but they're *very* dry and academia-based, and quiet.

you can ask in detail here, I'll try to answer. my hands are fucked from RSI, and hammering out a 16th C gorget earlier has'nt helped so I'm not sure how well I'll be typing. I can explain areas, at least. overview is a bit daunting.

>>14800944
Do you know what any major French, Spanish, and English Styles are called?

>>14800972
a large proportion of maille is'nt forged, but drawn, using wire drawplates to pull annealed, ductile steel through a hole making a rod. the rod is pulled through a series of smaller and smaller holes, becoming a wire. in many cases though 50% of the rings are made by hammering out a flat plate, and then punching the rings from the plate, like washers for screws. this saves you a lot of time riveting half the links, and is stronger. Metalurgical analysis of the grain of links has shown how the grain in the metal is bent in open links, as the wire was wound to shape, but is linear in punched links, indicating its made from forged plates.

>>14800984
english is fairly easy.

spanish is an oddity, as the nation was so fractured in the early periods, with moorish, and the europeans there relied on imported armours. 13th-15th C spanish is an area I've not really studied enough.

French, there's a shortage of surviving examples, but some evidence. most of the english names for armour parts are french in origin, btw.

again, it really depends on dates too - such a range of evolution means many details change rapidly.

>>14800972

>Anyone know of any good websites that have good details about Western Armor?

I think books about the Landeszeughaus Graz feature a number of these 16th century armour. Ask in /k/. a tripfag called km has saved the scans I've posted years ago. Dude has a mediafire account with all of that stuff.

>>14801036
Lets call a cutoff date at... post-1400s.

Also, I'd like to ask just what exactly are wolfzähne (wolf's teeth) fluting?

as a general overview, I'd reccommend looking for a copy of this book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Arms-Armour-Medieval-Knight-David/dp/0517644681/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=U
TF8&qid=1304452768&sr=1-11

>>14800832
>there's a constant arms race going on from the roman era to the 17th C

Meh, the romans were involved in an evolution of warfare rather than an arms race - they adopted tools, troops and techniques rather than simply inflate the number of arms under their controll and their technical turnover rate as arms races tend to do.

>Also, I'd like to ask just what exactly are wolfzähne (wolf's teeth) fluting?

I think I've seen these. It's a sawtooth-pattern on overlapping lames.

>>14801138
Why do so many people in these sort of images seem to have plate arms and legs but no plate breastplate?

Leonardo Da Vinci supervising a test flight of his new war-devices.

>>14801162
Looks like it's mid-transition period. Plate armor at that period could consist of just a front plate with a lot of chain on both ends and no backing, or (I think this is historically accurate) them just placing their chain over their plate.

>or (I think this is historically accurate) them just placing their chain over their plate.
Of course, I could be utterly mistaken. It seems kind of whimsical just to place the thing that's more susceptible to penetrating attacks on top of the thing that's supposed to bounce them.


>>14801134
Care to provide an example?

>>14801162
They're either wearing a coat over their armour or have a brigandine, which is another form of plate armour. The guy in the green is wearing one.

Though you may see pics of some lolenators wearing plate only on their limbs and head, but that's just going with the combat system (where limb hits are much more frequent than chest hits) rather than trying to be historical.

>Why do so many people in these sort of images seem to have plate arms and legs but no plate breastplate?

They do, but during that periode, people loved covering their armour with cloth. that's what you see on that image. Plus some Brigandines.

Found this in a Dark Souls thread on /v/, thought it was utterly sexful.

>>14801222
>>14801240
But doesn't a proper plate cuirass give more protection than a brigandine? Just seems if you could afford the arms, head and legs you would be able to get full plate on the chest as well.

>>14801263

I think periode accounts rated them as fairly equal. The Chinese loved brigandine something fierce though.

>>14801263

Knights live by the rule of cool, buddy.

>>14801162
Brig or Coat of plates.

I just realized this wasn't a horse.

mmm, falchions.

Now this is some decorative shit, right here.

>>14801263
brigandine is easier to make, cheaper, more comfortable, fits better, and were fashionable for everyone from common soldiers to royalty.

they do just as good a job of protecting as solid plate.

Alright, I found another cache of useful imagery. I may continue.

Was I the only guy who loved the Judges gear?

>>14801306
That they do.

>>14801380

Imagine being killed by a guy wearing that. You'd feel so indignant that his fucking faceplate was the Pringles guy.

>>14801395
With Freckles.

>sulted oponmn
...?

What I can never find is accurate information on how much armour actually weighs. What would the typical weight be for a mail hauberk or a suit of full plate?

>>14801380

FRANK, WHAT DID WE TELL YOU ABOUT GETTING THE BLACKSMITH TO PUT STUPID SHIT ON YOUR ARMOUR.

WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE A SERIOUS KNIGHTHOOD.

>>14801423
I second this request.

>>14801350

are you sure that that's a falchion? It's kinda looks like a messer

>>14801423

>>14801423
maille hauberk, about 40lbs / 18kilos, plus 5-10 lbs (3-5kilos) of gambeson/aketon/cotun underneath.

plus a coif, helm, (another 3 kilos) and if a norman rider, chausses of maille. (3 more kilos.)

plate, 15th C, a full harness is about 21kg / 45lbs. Heaviest full plate is around 28kilos / 56lbs in the early 1430's.

>>14801435
God smite me, you guys are conservatives~

>>14801462
that's 'cos it is a messer. you can see the nagel on it.

>>14801477

GREAT. NOW THE HEATHENS ARE GOING TO LAUGH AT US WHEN WE GO ON THE CRUSADES.

THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS, FRANK. WHY CAN'T YOU JUST BE NORMAL LIKE THE REST OF US.

> Good detail about armor

Bitches don't know 'bout mah Osprey Publishing

>>14801497

> Textual explanations of all labeled items

>>14801475
Does the full harness include the arming garment/doublet underneath? And I am always surprised by how light plate is compared to mail.

>>14801497
osprey are about 50/50 hit or miss. there's a lot of "sort-of" inaccuracies in the books.
not bad for a starting point though.

>>14801423
I hear 50-70 pounds being thrown out for that a lot.

Also, IIRC isn't cost also a factor in the whole plate helm/limbs, mail coat thing? Assuming mail actually WAS cheaper than plate, a knight from a poorer family might have to make do with just a plate helm and mail everywhere else, I'd imagine.

>>14801506
weight of an arming doublet is negligable, mine does'nt weigh anything more than a heavy sweater or fleece does.

>>14801496

Why do you shouting always with him? I think there is no problem with Frank's armor.

>>14801496
If you're gonna be like that for the rest of the afternoon, I suggest you don't turn around for a few minutes.

Hey guys, you mind if I bring George along?

>>14801546

GODDAMNIT JEFF, NOT YOU TOO. THIS IS WHY KING ARTHUR NEVER INVITED ANY OF OUR ANCESTORS TO PENTECOST. OR ANY TOURNAMENTS.

BECAUSE YOU'RE ALL DRESSED LIKE FUCKING WAZZOCKS, THAT'S WHY. SURE, THE HEATHENS ARE WEARING TURBANS AND DRESSES, BUT GOD HELP ME, WE HAVE AN IMAGE TO MAINTAIN.

Damn, here's a nice image.

>>14801586

Whatever Bill. You just have to relax a little. I mean sure the last crusade sucked very much but thats the past. Chill out man!

>>14801509
50 to 70 pounds would only be fore the very heaviest. Plate armor was often much lighter than that.

>>14801528
Thank you for the help.

>>14801589
Dude, Knucks.

>>14801613
>>14801589

HAVE YOU BEEN WASTING ALL OUR CROWNS ON YOUR STUPID DECORATIVE ARMOUR AGAIN?!

AND HELL NO, GEORGE CAN'T COME, YOU MIGHT ASWELL JUST MERCY KILL HIS HORSE, THE POOR BASTARD.

THIS IS WHY KING GEORGE HATES US.

>>14801630

can I join?

>>14801638


Bill... Dude... Seriously! What do you think about me? Of course I pimp my weapon too! check out this whip, it has a gun too!

Ack, Ack, Ack, Ack, Ack, Ack, Ack, Ack, Ackackack. Ack. Ack, Ack, Ackackak, Bill. Ack.

>>14801638
But we already found him a horse rated to pull minecarts, maaaan. He was freaking set to go and his wife's a batshitter of a witch something fierce besides!

Okay, okay, okay, fine. Can we bring Leon along then? I mean he's a little thin, but he's kinda a too-I mean cool.

Hey guys. Check my bitchin' new helmet, I can't really see anything below a fourty-five degree angle though, but the jousting injury helps.

One from my favourite Vidya of recent years. I should really have got some closeups of the Gloom and Dark Silver sets as well... Will see if I can find some more.

>>14801617
50lbs was more for the early iron armor + mail.

A 1400-1600 armored suit alone would only weigh 30lbs. And that is for armor that can sometimes stop a .75 caliber musket beyond a 10m range. Ungodly expensive though.

>>14801690
BILL!

>>14801698

Frank, you know I'm a bro but we can't bring Leon with us. He is not cool enough. Think about it for a second. If Leon come then next time that guy with the pointy shoes will come. And that would be awkward... I mean remember the last time when he tried to mount his horse?

>>14801680
>>14801698

NO, NO, NO. STOP THAT. AND QUIT WITH THE KNUCKS SHIT, YOU'RE NOT NEGROES. SO HELP ME IF I HAVE TO COME OVER THERE AND FUCK YOU UP MORDRED-STYLE.

>>14801690
WHO LET HIM BACK IN!?

What's the deal with plaqarts? They end roughly just under the ribs, so why isn't the breast plate a single piece?

>>14801719
>30lbs

erm. no. just, no.

a partial harness might weight 30lbs, if its breast, fauld, and spaulders.

a full harness, no chance. the lightest full harnesses in existence are around the 20kg /42lb mark.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Hey guys, feast your eyes upon this shit. Bought it and the Persian from Jericho for only 7 potatoes from some old woman last campaign. What should I name the cat?

>>14801778
I say, old chaps! What's all the commotion?

>>14801753

then I presume you don't want to hear about my crossbow which has a gun....

>>14801735
I. human, Ack. *ahem* Really. you can ack-acknowledge that?

.

>>14801756
articulation.

the ribs dont fold, but the thorax bends. the placket allows the torax to flex much more than a solid breast could.

not as much as an anime though.

/tg/ completely serious question here

If you are wearing fullplate armour, and you have to use the shitter, wut do?

someone archive this shit

>>14801791

NEED I REMIND YOU WHAT HAPPENED TO THE -LAST- FUCKING CAT YOU DECIDED TO ARMOUR UP?

>>14801855

..AND THE ONE BEFORE THAT.

>>14801867

YOU CAN SEE WHERE THIS IS GOING.

>>14801751
Yeah... But...

Aw man, SERIOUSLY? I hate pointy shoes guy. He seems like such a fucking fashion-rake with his pointy shoes and saying Milanese codshite is better when he has no freaking idea what that even means

Anyways, How's my shield?

>>14801835
It means you're in a shitty situation.

>>14801867
caused a bloody arms race, it did.

>>14801873
Yes.

We need more catcavalry.

>>14801855

Ahh, fun times! And remember, you agreed to it at the end when you saw that rampaging rabbit.

>>14801888
>>14801895

DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON SIR NUTKIN.

>>14801880

>>14801888
Ronin Mice. the mousetraps did'nt have a chance.

>>14801888
God's grace, the look on my face when the English brought their squirrels along.

>>14801910

I WAS HARD PRESSED NOT TO, THE FUCKING RABBIT WAS LOOKING RIGHT AT ME.

>>14801913
I don't know what was your problem with Sir Nutkin. You was the only one who hated him. But on second thought you were the only one without a codpiece...

>>14801953

THEN I WAS THE ONLY GUY TO PACK A TOWER SHIELD FOR DAMASCUS, AND LOOK HOW STUPID YOU GUYS LOOKED.

YOU ALL LOOKED LIKE WALKING METAL PINCUSHIONS.

>>14801935
>english
>not a red squirrel

mfw

>>14801978

better to be a pincushion than without a codpiece

>>14801978
But remember, I packed this.

>>14802000
>>14802002

YOU KNOW WHAT, FUCK YOU GUYS.

I'M GONNA JOIN THE TEUTONIC KNIGHTS. YOU GUYS ARE ASSHOLE HEATHENS AND I HOPE YOU ALL GO TO HELL.

>>14801855
Goddamnit, I have the Samurai Pizza Cats theme song stuck in my head now.

>>14802037

you always say that Bill. But we all know that you hate those teuton guys. Also they are pussies compared to the templars.

But the real reason is not that. Look at my helmet! Do you think the teuton guys have anything that is as cool as this?

On the subject of weight, I don't have any exact figures, but I've heard that a suit of armour weighed about as much as a modern soldier's combat gear, but it is actually easier to move in because it is distributed over the entire body.

>>14802037
C'mon dude, don't be like thaaaaaat.

Look, I know you've got a thing for my half-sister. Just stay with us bro, and I might make it worth your while~

>>14801423
>What I can never find is accurate information on how much armour actually weighs. What would the typical weight be for a mail hauberk or a suit of full plate?

I vaguely remember having a book somewhere at home that gives a table of weights for various suits and the amount of steel it took to make. There was a starting weight and and ending one, but don't quote me on that just yet. If this thread is still around in another 4 hours, I'll see about digging the book up.

"Knights! who do they think they are, coming here and burning down our cows, women, houses, men, crops, roads..."

- anonymous Hussite peasant

>>14801978
That's just cheating though, you're like 50 feet tall.

Bill, dude. Ar you there?

>>14800783
What armor is this?

I like these more stylistic types. Even thinking of making myself a suit of armor over the summer, not full plate though. Maybe just a chest piece plus clothing/padding.

>>14802270
Damn. Guess he's gone.

Guess we better get going to Lyons. I heard there was a Crusade there going on.

>>14802285
german, 1530's to 1560's, foot-soldier's attire.

>>14802302

No. Frank. You know what this means. This is serious now. Maybe Bill is a prick sometimes but he is our pal and he is part of the knighthood. We have to Bring Back Bill. And hopefully kick some teuton ass in the meantime.
Gather your relatives and pals, and all the cool kids from the kinghthood!

What's going on in here, I dare say?

>>14802352
KIM CHE, I CHOOSE YOOOOU

>>14802368

Talhoffer we need you!

well... This is not a real army... I mean I had hopes...

Whatever. Do you know where should we start the search? I heard there is a dwarf thread around. Maybe we should ask those dwarfs. They are very wise. I mean the beard and all... And the ale...

>>14802376
AND ERMEY TOO

>>14802434
Probably should start after the ale, bro. Uh. Bill.

I meant Bill, didn't I?

>>14802463

Okay. Then to the dwarfs and to the ale!
>>14801550

>>14802079
YOU DARE BELITTLE THE ORDER?

>>14802676

*Dear anyone who read this. We are on a quest now to find Bill, we started to search at the dwarfs because they have ale. Oh yeah and maybe some information. Feel free to come after us and help the search for Bill.
Also, Teutons are gay*

>>14802748
PS: Frank thinks Heinrich is a Jewy Jewbacca.

>>14802748
Onward, Brethren! We shall eradicate those who insulted us! Dwarf or not, they shall pay for their effrontery!

drunkbump

Landsbump

>>14803194

doppelbump

Bump.