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  • File : 1305422343.jpg-(228 KB, 396x593, 1302992227649.jpg)
    228 KB Flipped Race D&D Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)21:19 No.14929027  
    For far too long have we seen only the typical fantasy universe where elves, dwarves, humans, halflings, and gnomes are the good guys.

    In this setting, race roles are flipped. Now, the primary races are Catfolk, Orcs, hobgoblins, kobolds and goblins.

    They are the protagonist races. They are not primitive, stupid brutes as in other depictions. That is the role of the Dwarves, Elves, and other former protagonist races.

    Design this setting, /tg/. Tell me how it will run, and what it will look like.

    (Note: Monsters are still monsters, but the traditionally monstrous civilized races and traditional fantasy races are now flipped. If not mentioned above - say, Dragonborn and Bugbears, they're still flipped, but something like a ghoul would not be.)

    Tell me their societies. Tell me their ways.

    Hard Mode: None of them can be ripoffs of Native American or other primitive cultures. They must be developed civilizations.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)21:20 No.14929042
    You realize that this changes nothing, right, except it appeals to your scalie and furry fetish?
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)21:21 No.14929048
    Question: why must the bad guy races always be "primitive, stupid brutes"?
    >> Omegon 05/14/11(Sat)21:22 No.14929054

    A post from Goblins might be appropriate about now, if only so we can marvel at the horridly deformed characters.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)21:22 No.14929057
    Because stealth racism.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)21:22 No.14929063
    Well, the Drow aren't, but I didn't include them because "good bad drow" doesn't have the same impact as civilized, organized, erudite orcs.

    Drizzt basically ruined that avenue for anyone. "Good bad Drow" are just normal elves.
    >> HoppipFarmer !!kK65g6hnaSu 05/14/11(Sat)21:22 No.14929065
    Look up AEG's "Wilds". Flip to the desert section and read up on high gnolls. Other books have it too.

    And its no more appealing to a fetish than having a character with ranks in Use Rope or knowing Wildshape.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)21:23 No.14929070
    > catfolk
    Replace that shit with gnolls and we'll talk.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)21:24 No.14929086
    Catfolk were just thrown in to replace elves. If you want to develop a gnoll culture that fills the "elves" slot, go right ahead.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)21:25 No.14929090
    I very rarely run such antagonist races. In my current setting Halflings are the closest thing to "primitive, stupid brutes" and they are culturally stagnant and largely unimportant in world politics as a result.

    I mean, take OPs example races. Only Orcs and Goblins can really be called "primitive, stupid brutes" and the latter only sometimes. Hobgoblins are a bizarre inclusion, as they have an extremely intricate militaristic society and several notable cultural institutions with a potentially strong academic drive (tactical awareness/lore of war, magical research and worship of Bane).
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)21:25 No.14929097
    Goliath Represent.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)21:27 No.14929114
    Although they would still be monsters, I find the idea of Hags being good and Nymphs being hideously evil to be hilarious.

    Hags are the wise old creatures of the woods, who people go to for wisdom or magical training.

    Nymphs use their magical charms to lure young hobgoblin males to their untimely demise in their stew pot.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)21:28 No.14929124
    NO! You'll get just 'same as elves, but' you need something different, or just use good old classics
    >> Alpharius 05/14/11(Sat)21:29 No.14929131

    Man, there are plenty of evil Nymphs. They're the reason half-fiend fey even exist.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)21:29 No.14929134
    Feel free to try your hand, then.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)21:30 No.14929145
    Fuck, come to think of it Hobgoblins practice torture like Elves or Humans practice art. That might be horrific, but it's incompatible with "primitive, stupid brutes".

    At the same time, OP's scenario is really easy to enact. Take the negative aspects of any particular PC culture and distort them into caricature. Bingo.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)21:32 No.14929170
    The Hobgoblins are the ubiquitous race. Good leaders, most of them boss around a band of regular goblins, which tend to have their own sets of skills.
    Gnolls are considered civilized, but they live in the wild, close to nature and all that jazz. For them, nature is the hunt; they don't feel comfortable sitting still in cities, but they have a rich oral tradition.
    Kobolds are tinkerers. Starting with traps, eventually getting to rube goldberg-like contraptions, a kobold of any profession who can't fit two gears together isn't worth his salt. They're also magically inclined, which may or may not be related.
    Orcs are excellent warriors and smiths. Born from the earth, they are never quite at home in sunlight; hence, they are good miners. They take pride in being able to make a weapon from its ore to a blade.
    Goblins are the little guys, in a different manner than the kobolds. Goblins can steal shit, but they are also generally subservient to a chosen hobgoblin leader, who in turn directs their talents to benefit the group.

    Evil races up next
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)21:34 No.14929179
    I like what I'm reading so far!
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)21:35 No.14929188
    >Take the negative aspects of any particular PC culture and distort them into caricature. Bingo.
    It seems like you've basically done the opposite.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)21:39 No.14929220

    Humans are almost as common as goblins, and breed like rabbits. They wouldn't be much of a problem, but they band together more than kobolds do, and are five times their size.
    Elves are like the cattle to the gnolls' wolves. They are peaceful when undisturbed, but can surprise you if you rile them up; their preferred tactic is swarming overhead in their trees and throwing rocks or other heavy objects.
    Dwarves are a mysterious race. Deep-dwelling, clannish, and hewing to traditions in the extreme, there are few races more xenophobic. Most of the time, trade caravans dread going to dwarven lands because they're likely to flood the depot and take everything of value.
    Halflings are among the most nomadic of races, rivaling even the gnolls. Whenever they blow into civilization, they stick close to the shadows, take anything that isn't bolted down, then run before they're noticed. More like pests than a culture.
    Gnomes like to tinker much like the kobolds, but they're also greedy fuckers that go into a frenzy whenever there's gold to be found. It's not wise to show a gnome your valuables, as they're equally likely to try to separate you from them through guile as they are through force.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)21:40 No.14929228
    >Most of the time, trade caravans dread going to dwarven lands because they're likely to flood the depot and take everything of value.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)21:47 No.14929274
    Ooh, let's expound on this.

    Although Dwarves claim to belong to "civilizations", the truth is that they form small communities that have nothing to do with other communities in any manner other than trade. Although expert craftsmen with high quality goods, these are rarely traded, for few races are more greedy than the dwarves. When a fortress is besieged, their fellow clans will send no aid - which is probably wise, because Dwarves are as likely to kill even them as trade with them.

    As a species, Dwarves seem to have an insane desire to dig deep within the earth, and fallen Dwarven fortresses are some of the most renowned dungeons in the world. They are filled with stolen and crafted riches, but they are also filled with the things that come from down below. Vast hordes of undead, dragons, demons and even worse things wander the halls, waiting to punish thieves.

    The Dwarves are also genocidal, and have determined to kill all goblins on sight. Beware if one is in your party. The only way to get anything from them then is at the end of their axe blades.

    Hard drinking and driven primarily by their own manias, Dwarves are one of the most dangerous of the monstrous races.
    >> The Harlequin Rose 05/14/11(Sat)21:48 No.14929281
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    Dwarves fill multiple roles depending on their type. But for the most part I'm seeing them similar to the mutants from the Hills have Eyes. Extremely effective at stalking the mountains and caves. The dwarves are very clannish and territorial, killing or capturing all others, including non clan member dwarves. Their mountain homes are filled with traps both to catch food and to deal with intruders, though this is usually the same thing.

    Basically gather all the stories of horrible, baby eating mountain folk. Their women can also inspire the ugly hag in the woods thing.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)21:52 No.14929307
    I liiiiike that. Good interpretation.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)21:54 No.14929316
    Beholders, ever the individualists, pride themselves on being able to solve any problem in their own unique way. Goblinoid kingdoms like to hire beholders as advisors, because each one brings a vastly different perspective to the table. That's not even mentioning their great battle prowess.
    Undead are a good source of labor. Undead slavery is more humane than living slavery, but it's lamentable that they can't work as hard and tend to fall apart.
    Vampires are beings of wealth and taste, at once noble and savage. Many of them are wealthy landowners, demanding only a token offering of blood from each of their subjects. In turn, they can benefit their realms far better and for far longer than the more ephemeral living nobility; who else can offer centuries of governing experience?
    Mind flayers are a peculiar lot. They generally prey on the evil races, humans and elves and such, but they have good relations with the more civilized peoples, despite their ghastly dietary needs. Even so, they are intelligent and clever enough to warrant friendly relations.
    Drow are like elves, but more civilized. They have integrated themselves with society fairly well, especially with orcs, and they pride themselves in their civility when compared to their tree-dwelling, wild cousins, the light elves. Drow engage in politics more readily than other races, and are often fine diplomats and statesmen, well aware of high etiquette and manners. The drow religion is unique; their spider queen demands all drow to act to the fullest of their ability and to seize opportunities as much as they can. Some of them have earned a reputation of being bloodthirsty, but these unfortunate individuals quickly find doors closed for them; they are rather few.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)21:57 No.14929334

    >Humans are almost as common as goblins, and breed like rabbits. They wouldn't be much of a problem, but they band together more than kobolds do, and are five times their size.

    I'm actually not okay with this, since it doesn't really get caricaturish and nasty.


    Humans are among the laziest and largest of the brute races, having a predilection only for the accrual of shiny objects (they are partial to coins and cut gems, which they hoard like magpies). They have no god, unlike the blessed Goblinoids, or even the savage elves and dwarves, for no god has seen fit to grant them his favor.

    The human is an ungainly individual typically overweight from a lifetime of gorging himself on the closest available substance. However despite their slovenly appearance, they can be cunning and brutal when their hoard of "shinies" is threatened, and will abandon a mate or child in order to add to this hoard.

    Among the bestial races, none other than humans can be reckoned as the most savage. When they are not attempting to lay their hands on shiny objects, they are rutting or attempting to rut. Typically, the human with the largest hoard will attract the most mates, for unknown purposes.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)22:03 No.14929374
    Expanding on this with a little bit of the worst parts of HFY.

    Of all intelligent races, humans have the most inflated racial identity. They claim that their food is poisonous to all other beings, that their excrement is deadly to all nonhumans, and that all other races are either smaller or weaker than them. Given their resistance to poison and the filth that accumulates in their waste, and their unusual size, these are not without the smallest basis in truth, but they take it even further. They go as far as to falsely claim that they have achieved fantastic military victories against the goblinoids, that all other races fear and revere them, and that they alone are fit to inhabit this world. If presented with evidence contrary to this warped worldview, they become angry and unstable.
    It is not a coincidence that humans cannot coexist with any other race.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)22:07 No.14929402
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    Pfft. If you want to make a human civilization that's evil, just base them on the Assyrians. One of the first human civilizations in history and one of the most brutal.

    Remember, they're taking the place of the Hobgoblins.

    Human civilization is exceptionally primitive and brutal. They live short, hard lives, and usually die by the hand of other humans.

    Humans are in about equal number nomads and city dwellers. War between these two factions is perpetual, and brutal.

    They have reached the technological sophistication to work bronze, but use it for little other than creating weapons of war.

    Their society is divided into castes. There are the rulers, the warriors, the priests, and the commoners.

    Commoners live short lives, usually ending due to starvation.

    Priests act to keep their civilization in line, and compete for power with the aristocrats.

    The rulers are terrible and debauched; their primary concern is for luxury and power. Their greed will not stop until they control the whole world.

    The warrior caste is well organized, brutal, and terrible. Human armies have been known to slaughter any city they invade en masse, and pile the corpses in the town center.

    Humans have no mercy, and any negotiations they carry out are only done so that they can better wrest power from the other races.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)22:09 No.14929422
    Much better than "fat magpies."
    >> The Harlequin Rose 05/14/11(Sat)22:10 No.14929429
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    Elves, I can see just focusing more on their nature loving side. You can mix them with the stereotypical, mask wearing, spear chucking Darkest Africa character. The one that will chase your Kobold Indiana Jones through the jungles.

    Th elves revere the natural world and are intensely jealous of the orcs and kobolds and such, believe that they stole the natural gifts of beasts from them. The elves wish they had long ears, scales and tales, or fur and fangs. They are known for making their clothing and adornings out of the skins of the more civilized races because of this.

    I can see the party taking a boat down a river, while mask wearing elves watch them from the trees, their whispery silibant language filling the air as the party wonders if htey are going to attack or not.
    >> Alpharius 05/14/11(Sat)22:10 No.14929431

    Fat magpies fits more as a replacement for Hobgoblins though. And by "fits" I mean it's completely the opposite.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)22:16 No.14929478
    Take a page from the worst bits of humanity: /tg/ shitposters.
    Humans, additionally, are depraved in the extreme. They claim to abhor rape, except when done by a human against another creature, "it's not rape it its a [race]" is a common saying. They take elves as slaves and, more sickening, they take kobolds as pets, declaring them "cutebolds" and forcing them to do things degrading in the extreme. The only race they like is the xenophobic, borderline-insane dwarves, with whom they do not even communicate regularly.
    Slovenly, with little to no regard for personal hygiene or cleanliness and chauvinistic in their gender attitudes, humans regard women as filth only fit for rutting (humans, unusually, mate year-round, so they are often rutting); a male human will take several wives and force them to clean up after him; they tend to keep their wives in a room meant for both mating and food preparation known in their disgusting tongue as kee'chen, and beat them mercilessly if they leave that room.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)22:18 No.14929494

    Work in their weird affinity for trying to fuck anything and it's gold. Half-orcs are still discriminated against in this culture, because they're half-human and have the human savagery but are weaker than their noble cousins.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)22:19 No.14929500
    Thanks. I'm going to expand on the theme.

    There are three current "kings" of the majority of human civilization.

    Ashur-etil-ilani is the "ruler of the ruins". His original capital city was destroyed in war with nomadic humans. Retreating to the ancient ruined city of Ashkelon, he forced his commoners to rebuild it. His forces have become extremely mobile as a result. He has the weakest faction, but his numerous deals with other nomadic tribes make attacking him difficult.

    Sin-shumu-lishir is the lord of swords, a former general that overthrew his king and took his place. Among all the lords, his forces are the strongest but also most unstable. He fears rebellion in his own ranks.

    Sinsharishkun the schemer overthrew his older brother Ashuretililani and took his throne. His forces are small but well organized, and Sinsharishkun is perhaps the most brutal and organized of all the lords.

    Together, the three threaten the outer races almost as much as they threaten each other.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)22:23 No.14929522

    Ehhh. It was good earlier but now it's getting kind of dumb.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)22:25 No.14929533
    How so? Those were actual historical figures.

    In any event, no one has done elves yet.

    I see them sort of like Deliverance hillbillies.

    You travel through the woods and hear the sound of Elven lyres in the distance....
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)22:27 No.14929551
    We need to know what Dragons are like in this setting to get a good feel for kobolds due to their collective boner for them. Maybe these kobolds were created from metallic dragons, so they'd have more of a sheen to their scales. Trap making could stay if was made into a more passive art, less about maiming adventurers and more dropping intruders in traps to protect the eggs. It's also funny thinking in this setting kobolds might actually live to their max age, which is fairly high from what I remember. Most just usually die from violent deaths.
    >> The Harlequin Rose 05/14/11(Sat)22:27 No.14929553

    Did them right here.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)22:28 No.14929558
    Just like normal, about half are good and half are evil. You can flip which are which if you like.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)22:30 No.14929574

    I'd keep them just because I like the idea of metallic kobolds, but I could see the metallic dragons being flipped to evil if need be. The metallic part could be from all of the precious metal and gems they steal for their lairs.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)22:41 No.14929669
    Hobgoblins are perhaps the most diverse race, if strong and martial.

    Theirs are the home of relentless training, skill, and honor.

    Their civilization can proudly boast that they are the creators of philosophy, the phalanx, and democracy.

    Every Hobgoblin citizen serves in the military from an early age. Young hobgoblins are sent off to schools, designed to educate and strengthen them.

    Adult Hobgoblins may become simple farmers, or continue as adventuring warriors. Some will become politicians and statesmen, or priests and mages.

    The Hobgoblins are the most diverse race, free to be good or evil, but above all are capable with martial arms.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)22:43 No.14929684

    I like the mental image of a group of bandits trying to raid a Hobgoblin village, unaware that even the village idiot has at least four levels of Fighter.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)22:46 No.14929703
    Even being unarmed is no defense. They know Pankriton.
    >> The Harlequin Rose 05/14/11(Sat)22:53 No.14929772
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    I see gnomes as being all the small races of the unseelie fae. The redcaps, the goblins, all of that. Using magic to play fatal pranks. They are brutal, cunning, otherworldly. Their mindset is alien to all.

    They seem to like to prey on kobolds, stealing their childrens, sometimes bringing back the child's dead body. This seems to have been going on since the first gnome, Garl Caveshatter, as the kobolds call him.

    I'm basically mixing a lot of evil fae stuff, as well as pathfinder goblins.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:01 No.14929841
    Sounds good. Keep going.
    >> Magus O'Grady 05/14/11(Sat)23:05 No.14929877
    I designed a campaign a while back that used a similar premise. It was a mix of post-ice-age(magically induced by careless humans) and rise-of-rome (goblinoids building their empire after a theological civil war, ancestor-worshiping progressives versus followers-of-the-old-god savages). Never got very far with it, but your campaign looks a lot better thought out than mine did, OP.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:09 No.14929913
    >can't be Native Americans or other primitive cultures

    Sure is ignorant, uneducated, occicentric and lacking in cultural relativism, here.

    Lemme guess - your criteria for "primitive" means no concrete, fluoride in the water, or white people.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:14 No.14929969
    >Implying they aren't green

    There seems to be a flaw in your trollpost.

    I like the idea of Goblins as Romans. If the Hobgoblins are Greeks, I suppose it makes sense.

    Feel free to speak more on your campaign so I can rip it off shamelessly.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:15 No.14929984
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    It's called The Horde.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:18 No.14930004
    Way to completely fucking miss my point.

    Whatever, let's see OP feed a thousand people via agriculture in Northern Ontario and see how fucking "primitive" he feels when he fucking fails.

    And then all the dead Wendat and Algonquin can laugh at him.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:19 No.14930011
    I like the idea of mask-wearing elves wearing the skins of other sentient races. And the evil, mischeivious, probably pyromaniac gnomes. For some reason, this makes me want all the formerly protagonist races to be little more they stereotypes that would look good cinematically.

    As such, I'd probably pull Paizo's hillbilly-themed ogrekin for humans. Live out in loose family groups in swamps and mountains, big, dumb, and drutal. Like strong drink and rape. Probably got a bit of inbreeding based of clan fueds with neighbors limiting their choices in their backwoods homes.

    I'd make the halflings something like orcs. Large, nomadic bands of barbarians. Probably seen more as a war threat then a monsterious race, halflings might be able to forge truces with intelligent races, and you might see a few in a large town, bartering their massive well-breed riding wolves for supplies. And they still probably are entirely deadly throwing rocks. Ranged barbarians, the whole lot.

    Now dawrves. . .
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:19 No.14930013
    The idea of this thread is flawed well beyond OP's ingrained cultural bias, there's no need to get all hot and bothered.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:20 No.14930027
    The Horde is specifically what I DON'T want. They're mostly a bunch of "noble savage" stereotypes and one group that's almost a bunch of cartoon villains.

    These are protagonist races, not ecocentric "My people have been oppressed, love the trees" people.

    Actual, developed civilizations. China, Korea, Mesopotamia, Egypt, Celts, Rome, Greece, Russia, Bactria, the Incas - all of these were developed civilizations.

    Saying "not native American" was wrong I suppose. The Aztecs and Incas are developed. I guess I should say "not noble savage stereotypes or nature loving oppressed people".
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:22 No.14930052

    Let me fix that for you.


    There you go. Take it from an archaeologist. Archaeology student.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:24 No.14930066
    Romanesque Hobgoblins, Babylonian Kobolds, Mongol Orcs, Goblins are Phonecian style traders, and pirates. Goblins take up the role of Halflings, generally bro'ing out with erry body; except catfolk who they view as a delicacy.

    Catfolk are amazonian tribesmen.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:24 No.14930068
    Yeeeeaaaah, you're still a racist, occicentric twat.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:25 No.14930070
    Holy shit man you need to get out and talk to some Native fucking Americans.
    >> The Harlequin Rose 05/14/11(Sat)23:26 No.14930087

    I covered dwarves a bit up already. I think they fit better as the hillybilly mountain folk than humans. It helps that they have dark vision to let them keep up with the civilized monster races, so the orcs can't just try to retaliate at night or whatever.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:26 No.14930088
    >Saying "not native American" was wrong I suppose. The Aztecs and Incas are developed. I guess I should say "not noble savage stereotypes or nature loving oppressed people".
    So anyone not "Aztecs and Incas" is "noble savage stereotypes or nature loving oppressed people"?
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:29 No.14930112
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    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:29 No.14930115
    Am I the only one who images Dwarves being played completely as if they were PCs dropping in this setting? Magical/technologically advanced "drillships" carves tunnels into towns, bursting out of teh ground or into cellars. Mailled dwarves in their horrible horned helmets burst out, raiding the town and slaughtering the innocent kobolds or orcs, grabbing anything of value, and booking it back to their tunnels, which they collapse behind them.

    Even if you dug through, you'd find they wind into huge tunnel structures that don't lead directly back to their fortress lairs. Where they pile up gold and jewels, craft themselves more axes and armor, and dream of plunder and ruin.

    Amongst themselves, they'd enjoy stereotypical viking activities. Drinking, long sagas of dwarven heroes, throwing handaxes at each other in dangerous games. And they basically just murder all the new protagonist races because, of course, they're monsters.

    Their brutal god Lulz Doomhammer is their god of war, and he demands the blood of their undwarfy enemies to flow, and undwarven skulls for his skull throne. Teegee Wonderbeard is their god of sagas and crafting. Etc, etc. A whole race of That Guys who refuse to play by the setting.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:32 No.14930136
    That was not directly said. Implied perhaps whether intentionally or not.

    I believe he was only trying to avoid the 'nature loving noble savage' stereotype and chose his words poorly.
    At least, I can see trying to use two of the more well-known American native cultures as examples of what something isn't without saying everything else is.

    The Native American as 'tree hugging hippie in tune with nature' stereotype has been around for a while, and I think it is a good thing to avoid, personally.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:32 No.14930139
    I...I really like that.
    >> The Harlequin Rose 05/14/11(Sat)23:32 No.14930142
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    Halfings, I had a hard time with this cause all the good people stuff was already taken by the gnomes.

    I decided to make them the low level cannon fodder that most adventurers first kill. These are parasites and scavengers. You can find them on battlefields scrounging for left over goods and for food or living in warrens in sewers. Basically when the module calls for a dirty group of goblins or kobolds to kill, use halflings.

    I kind of made them into a race of Gollums and smeagols.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:34 No.14930162
    Actually, I was thinking in terms of large constructions and developed agriculture. Most of North America never reached that point, all though there were some semi-nomadic cultures that harvest crops such as corn and were somewhat developed.

    The Aztecs and Incas had widespread agriculture, industry, large buildings and large, sustained populations. That's why they qualify and the North American Native Americans largely do not.

    You'll notice ever race I mentioned has those qualities.

    That was your campaign? It sounds pretty good, although the Mongolesque Orcs is sort of a stereotype, IMO.

    I wouldn't use the Goblins for Babylonians, because humans are already Assyrians, and there'd be some bleed between the two.

    I agree with you, your view of Dwarves as The Hills Have Eyes esque clans is very interesting, and probably the best idea I've heard so far.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:38 No.14930188
    Dwarves: Blood for the Blood God! Loot for the Loot God!

    I can hear their battle-chants echoing through the tunnels all around...
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:39 No.14930206
    All shall be Slaves to Amok!
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:40 No.14930216
    There are two breeds of humans. There are the low men, who are the brutish, short-lived thugs and thieves known around the world. They speak their own clumsy, guttural language.

    There are also the rarely encountered High Men. These types often dominate the low men, and they more closely resemble their ancestral roots. It was the unspeakable dabblings of the high men into powers best left undisturbed that caused their race's fall long ago. Now they're mostly the subject of legend, but when one does appear, they often herald the things of nightmares. It is variously said that none of the high men are actually still alive, or that they do not have souls. Both or neither might be true, but its a fact that these foul tempered beings know neither pity nor kindness.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:40 No.14930225
    >Actually, I was thinking in terms of large constructions and developed agriculture.

    Such as the longhouses of the Iroquois Confederacy, or the large communal homes of the peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast.

    Seriously, just how ignorant can you get?
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:47 No.14930296
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:49 No.14930307
    >Small buildings


    Your argument is magnificently shitty, I hope you realize.
    >> The Harlequin Rose 05/14/11(Sat)23:50 No.14930321
    How about less arguing. Yes the OP is a bit ignorant about native american culture but hes not being malicious about it. Just recommend him some readings, stop arguing and just try getting back to the topic at hand.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:52 No.14930342
    You're really quite stuck on this point, aren't you? You're going to argue semantics until you've managed to completely derail the thread, because you took offense to me not wanting to have the flip just end up with all the monstrous races end up stuck with the "noble savage" stereotype.

    Yes, those civilizations had agriculture and sort of large constructions. I don't see them as totally qualifying because their constructions were mostly just large homes, and some were still semi-nomadic.

    Also "almost but not quite" are the Papua New Guneans, who had developed agriculture based on the Sweet potato and certain types of edible tree, but did not develop large structures.

    In any event, the entire PURPOSE of excluding nations like this is because I do not want them to be the "poor oppressed noble savages" in a world ruled by men. Those cultures ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS end up that fucking way, and I do NOT want to look at a roster of Na'vi ripoffs!

    You've already got numerous good suggestions in here that draw inspiration from well developed cultures with a rich history.

    I'm starting to wonder if it's the other side that is offended at the thought that orcs could be anything more than a noble savage stereotype.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:54 No.14930363
    The Elves are the Byzantine Romans, who keep millions of slaves. They use slaves for everything; war, construction, production, food, sport, the possibilities are endless. Once noble warriors and city-builders, they now consider themselves a 'divine race', and will expend thousands of lesser lives in their pursuit for pretty much everything.

    They breed monstrous abominations in their great laboratories, and use them in their endless war against the Goblin Empire. The worst part is that they are winning. Unless serious headway is made soon, they will overrun Goblin lands with their endless slave armies.

    The few Elves that either worry about the number of slaves in the Empire or object to the immense cruelty of Elven culture are mostly in the army, and some of them are planning a coup against the Emperor.
    >> The Harlequin Rose 05/14/11(Sat)23:55 No.14930372

    Isn't this basically the drow?
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:56 No.14930384
    >I've never seen a Haida lodge before!

    Two storeys tall. Entirely out of cedar. You and your dad are both sopping wet vaginas and could not build one. Not even with your uncles' help.

    Also,what the fuck, OP? The Wendat of the Northern Great Lakes Area were highly accomplished, sedentary, farmers of corn, beans and squash in quantities enough to sustain populations numbering in the thousands. Combine that with the vast aquacultural prospects of Lakes Huron and Superior, which WERE used to their fullest extent...

    And this isn't even considering the even larger settlements of Haida, Tlingit and Tsimshian >>14930225 mentioned.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:56 No.14930390
    Not that guy, but I consider your proposition fucking stupid because it belies an ignorance of the 'natural state' of some of the listed races and most unlisted ones, because you discount any existing alternate interpretation of the races, and because you apparently believe an on-off alignment flip is more conducive to well-developed morally diverse races than just mixing positive and negative aspects while expanding their culture.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:57 No.14930396
    I like this for a simple reason. I once held a thread that compared the basic races, and elves - having a low breeding rate and long lifespan, as well as being better than everyone else in most respects, were generally agreed to end up as the slaver rulers of humans.

    It would also make sense for them to be morally out of date.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:58 No.14930404
    >our elves are different
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:58 No.14930411
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    Seriously? If you're going to get so asspained this, leave. The Native Americans were, by and large, savages. And you are, by and large, immensely butthurt.
    >> Anonymous 05/14/11(Sat)23:59 No.14930417

    The Drow are matriarchal, and have always been pricks. These guys are basically Imperial Roman nobles, with a Greekish language and a Byzantine aesthetic.

    Also, they are mostly dark haired and tan skinned, and live in massive, domed cities and palaces. I also forgot to mention that they tolerate non-conquered races, so long as they don't make trouble. However, most races don't particularly tolerate them.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)00:05 No.14930484
    I was thinking more in terms of ziggurats, pyramids, obelisks, and the like.

    Now, if you think that you can construct a civilization based upon the Wendat, or the Iriquois, or the Cherokee or other North American Native American tribes and make them into something that does NOT fit the "noble savage" stereotype, and is a protagonist race feel free. That was the whole purpose of the exclusion, after all.

    And if you're a good enough writer, you probably can.

    But if you can't, then stop whining already.

    Go ahead if you like. Just don't give them a chip on their shoulder about having their lands stolen from them, or how not having advanced technology is awesome.

    You'd PROBABLY be best off taking their culture and giving them advanced technology. This setting seems to be mostly late bronze age/early iron age, so they'd have to be at a parity in order to be competitive.

    If that really offends you, you could probably use the Gnolls, since they're already pegged as the "druidic" race. But if they end up as the "proud and savage warrior race", don't say I didn't warn you.

    Well? Hop to it.
    >> The Harlequin Rose 05/15/11(Sun)00:07 No.14930504

    Drow are pretty much all that, with just the matriarchy put in. The differences are more aesthetic.

    Sure there are also some other differences but these elves you are describing have their same niche filled in by the drow.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)00:08 No.14930512
    Reminds me a lot of the Elves from the Elvenbane series, actually.

    They fled a magical war on their own world, and invaded a world where there were humans, none beyond the iron age.

    They enslaved them all, and thousands of years later, they rule the world with magical empires and countless human slaves.

    And MAN are those Elves seriously evil at their best.

    Unfortunately, they tend to suffer from Drizzt syndrome, though. They'd turn into protagonists in most campaigns after the old guard was overthrown, rather than just ushering in new evil like most proper monstrous races.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)00:11 No.14930540
    >Native American

    yall triggers posting in a roll thread
    >> The Harlequin Rose 05/15/11(Sun)00:15 No.14930571
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    Keep away from the mountains.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)00:19 No.14930608
    so in the end your going to stick to your own prejudices after being told otherwise? for someone who dislike "noble savages" trope you are still the one clinging to it in describing a civilization.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)00:23 No.14930647
    Alright, let's get this back on track.

    So far, we've decided the following:

    The era is early Iron Age/Late Bronze Age.

    The Orcs are "excellent warriors, smiths, and Miners", but do not have a specific civilization inspiring them yet.

    The Gnolls ALSO do not have a specific civilization inspiring them yet, but are supposed to be the "Druidic" race.

    The Kobolds are a civilization of inventors, craftsmen, magicians and sorcerers. They may or may not be inspired by Babylonian civilization.

    The Goblins are Romans.

    The hobgoblins are Greeks.

    The Humans are Assyrian culture inspired, and are perhaps related to ogres and giants. They vary between nomadic barbarians and savage empires.

    The Catfolk have been mostly discarded, which is more or less fine.

    The Dwarves are "The Hills have Eyes" type clannish cannibals, who occasionally raid nearby villages and resemble vikings.

    The Elves are still being debated.

    The Gnomes are evil fey, in the vein of redcaps and so on.

    The Halflings are savage nomadic wanderers, who specialize in ranged warfare, and are the "canon fodder" race.

    Any additions? Suggestions? Further work?

    The core races have hardly been fleshed out here. More work has been given to the monstrous race like the humans and dwarves than the civilized races like the Kobolds and Orcs.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)00:24 No.14930661

    >Those cultures ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS end up that fucking way, and I do NOT want to look at a roster of Na'vi ripoffs!
    The na'vi are a CARICATURE of native american cultures. Did they cut down trees and build bigass houses? No, they lived in fucking trees. Did they mutilate the dead so that their souls could escape their bodies? No, they did burials and vaguely shamanistic dancing rituals that appeals to western audiences. Did they practice farming and trade on a large scale? No, they lived off the land. I see what you're trying to do, you're trying to avoid the noble savage archetype. But what you don't understand (or are not effectively communicating that you do understand) is that said archetype has never existed in real life.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)00:26 No.14930675

    The drow are just evil dick elves, with an anarchic backstabbing society. These guys are very well organized, and their emperor is their Christ. Most of them wouldn't even think about betraying him or one another. That's how they managed to enslave most of their rivals, and build cities so large and advanced that some of their districts are cities in their own right, all working in harmony. They have good qualities and bad qualities, the good qualities being that merchants of accepted races report luxury beyond imagining, clean cities, plentiful food, polite people, and a government that works. The bad qualities is that all of this is built on top of the graves of hundreds of thousands of people, and nobody is held accountable for it.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)00:27 No.14930689

    The Orcs are Slavs.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)00:28 No.14930691
    I'm sorry, were you writing a civilization, or continuing to whine?

    I just said you can write whatever you like, and it can be based on Native American cultures if you like, but it cannot be a "noble savage" stereotype.

    I've presented examples of Native American cultures which are easy to write in that manner, such as the Incas and the Aztecs. If you want to use the Iroquois, go right ahead. Frame them however you want.

    I ask ONLY that you put them at a technological level comparable with the others, and avoid a cliche stereotype.

    So either do it, or just shut up already.

    I fucking love that picture.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)00:29 No.14930707
    Fine, then write them accurately, but give them an early Iron Age/Late Bronze Age technological level.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)00:33 No.14930749
    I'm... not too familiar with Slavic culture. That ranges from (arguably) Macedonia to primitive Germanic tribes, iirc.

    Not that I mind the Macedonians getting representation (Orcish Alexander the Great!) but they'd bleed over into Hobgoblin civilization, which is Greek. The primitive Germanic tribes weren't really civilized until the Romans got ahold of them.

    I'm also probably forgetting quite a few.

    What specific group of Slavs are you going with here?
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)00:34 No.14930765
    Well, you see, I am not an uneducated halfwit, and would be easily able to do so.

    You see, you think a fictional culture based on the First Nations in question (Also, what the fuck? Who the fuck was talking about the Cherokee? We're talking about Pacific-coast dwelling peoples and Algonkian-speakers from the Hudson Bay and Great Lakes area. Oh, wait, you're ignorant as fuck and that's the first place your mind goes again because 'murcans love their plains-cultures to death (literally)) could only be a pastiche, a two-dimensional noble-savage fantasy because, well, you know nothing of them. At all.

    I'm not some white boy with a hard-on for injuns, fuck, it's just, show some fucking cultural relativism, here, man. Show some learning, show some fucking CLASS, man.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)00:34 No.14930769
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    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)00:41 No.14930843
    Let's see... by and large the biggest and most significant nation to contain large numbers of Slavs seems to be Russia.

    To be perfectly honest, they can't really claim many great empires in their history.

    But Russian Orcs? I could get behind that.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)00:43 No.14930868
    Have the world be running out of placer copper and tin deposits. Bronze is getting harder and harder to manufacture without incredibly difficult mining.

    Since bronze is IT if you want to make serious weapons and tools, wars over remaining deposits, or even rumors of deposits are common. And god help you if you're a small kingdom that happens to be sitting on a lot of copper or tin.

    ( This may have actually happened: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_collapse )
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)00:44 No.14930880
    Macedon was really Greek. Like, they were not involved in a lot of the city state drama, but they were not really a separate civilization
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)00:50 No.14930937

    Weren't they influenced by northern tribes like the Scythians and Dacians who used cavalry extensively?
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)00:52 No.14930956
    Yes and no. It's debatable, because the Greeks themselves considered the Macedonians barbarians, and modern Macedonians like to claim that ancient Macedonia consisted of Slavs like them. They've made some interesting arguments.

    In any event, it doesn't REALLY matter. The Macedonians were Macedonians, their ethnic heritage is mostly just a point of trivia.

    I think this would be an excellent atmosphere for the setting to have. The time of the Bronze Age collapse, and the rise of Iron Age civilizations.

    The Orcs, Hobgoblins, Gnolls, Kobolds and Goblins are the most civilized and developed races in the world, rare points of light in a land suffering grand scale economic collapse.

    The Humans, Dwarves, Elves, Halflings and Gnomes are the monstrous races, making a dark world even worse with their presence.

    My primary problem with the elves in this thread is that they still feel too much like a protagonist race, instead of a monstrous race. Humans, Gnomes, halflings and Dwarves have certainly got civilizations that work very well as antagonist NPC races, and seem threatening.

    The Elves? Ehhh... They just keep appearing to be Drow.

    Perhaps Warhammer Fantasy's wood elves might be a better inspiration.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)00:55 No.14930978
    Slavs had lots of politically significant empires, some of which were short lived, others longer lived. Greater Moravia, the Bulgarian Empire, the Kingdom of the Serbs, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, etc. And of course the Russian Empire, one of the most important in world history.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)00:59 No.14931005
    Like I said, the Russians are the most significant. You could probably make a case for Bulgarians too.

    Still, Russian Orcs are cooler than Bulgarian Orcs.

    What say you, /tg/? Any other viewpoints on Orcs? Anyone care to write some fluff?
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)01:02 No.14931031
    Elves can just be sent back to their fey roots.
    They are reclusive folk who live in the woods and are so petty and emotionally unstable that people who speak of them praise them endlessly out of fear of being murdered in their sleep.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)01:04 No.14931050


    It's slightly wrong for the time period but you could have the elves be like the Huns, with magic standing in for horses in battle and movement.

    Something happens and the elvish lands no longer support them, so there's a mass migration into other territories.

    An elf migration is a very nasty thing to happen to any kingdom, as they don't have a great need for slaves (being a magical, semi nomadic culture) and like their elbow room.
    >> The Harlequin Rose 05/15/11(Sun)01:06 No.14931069

    Hence why I suggested >>14929429

    This type of elf would probably fit better as a monstrous race. They would have a lot against the beastial yet civilized races for not only inheriting what they consider the physical gifts of the elves animal god, but also rejecting nature for civilization.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)01:07 No.14931077
    Strange aberrant beings of the fifth dimension begin experiencing strange things. Unfathomable creatures of only three dimensions are appearing as if from nowhere and creating order and sanity wherever they go. No place is safe. The fear and paranoia are too great. It's up to you and a team of other intellectual aberrations to put a stop to the cultist that are aiding these abominations in their unholy quest.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)01:07 No.14931078

    >All evil elves
    >Obviously Drow

    Give me ways in which they resemble drow, and I'll argue them.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)01:08 No.14931084
    Githyanki sail the Astral (Plane in 3.5, Sea in 4e), helping stranded travelers with the help of their noble dragon friends.
    Woe be to any pirates they catch in the act.
    They also have an immortal queen that they love very much, who loves them like her grandchildren.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)01:11 No.14931111
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    >The Gnolls ALSO do not have a specific civilization inspiring them yet, but are supposed to be the "Druidic" race.

    I'm not sure on 'Druidic' but for the nomadic thing you could draw on Mongols and so on.

    It'd also preserve a sliver of the whole raider thing they have unflipped.

    Being so strong would also make them pretty dangerous with bows, as a bonus. Races without STR bonuses might have trouble drawing a gnollish recurve bow.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)01:19 No.14931181
    Humans have the capability to be a noble race, but end up constantly trolling each other with what is considered savage and what isn't.

    Like this thread.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)01:19 No.14931188
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    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)01:23 No.14931216
    Orcs should be French knights, lack of wisdom inspires their bold and daring maneuvers, lack of charisma shows their slight arrogance and distasteful manners, lack of intelligence shows that they are nobles who fight instead of work.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)01:24 No.14931229
    With Goblin squires?
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)01:25 No.14931239
    Fund it. Would be an interesting take on a roll that elves normally fill.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)01:26 No.14931244
    I can see this.
    >> The Harlequin Rose 05/15/11(Sun)01:26 No.14931247
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    Eh heres more drawfagging before I leave this thread.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)01:27 No.14931253
    Yeah, you've come up with the best idea so far for Elves. I think I'll just go with it.

    Nice pictures, by the way. Once again, I really love your creepy "Hills have Beards" Dwarves. Maybe you should make them uglier in future pictures, truer to Nordic myth.

    As for the Orcs: So far we've got French Orcs and Russian Orcs.

    Who favors what?
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)01:28 No.14931261
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    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)01:28 No.14931262

    Hell why not both? Trace it back to a split in the dominant religion.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)01:34 No.14931333
    West Orcs are famed for their daring cavalry charges atop mighty steeds. East Orcs are famed for their tough scale mail and massive armies of foot-troops.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)01:39 No.14931370
    >> The Harlequin Rose 05/15/11(Sun)01:45 No.14931422
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    Ugly enough?
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)01:52 No.14931485
    Why hasn't anyone brought up ogres or giants?
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)01:55 No.14931509
    Yeah, that works pretty well.

    Feel free to do something on them if you like.

    Yeah, I think that would work rather well. Having more than one nation per race is probably for the best, and helps reinforce them as protagonist races.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)01:56 No.14931524

    well, when you think about it the Humans already are ogres. The way this thing plays out in my head are the kobolds/goblins would be the main races fighting smaller races like half-lings/gnomes. They could occasionally enlist Orcs to fight with them as a type of ogre. But to the goblins Man and even some dwarves are huge ogreish creatures.

    Also, has anyone really touched on gnomes? Because in old myths they were said to move through earth like man moves through air. That's a pretty frightening idea.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)02:00 No.14931552
    Giants are an ancient race of quasi-orcs. Like the neanderthals to the sapiens, they were a different branch in nature -- one that ended up pruned.

    Ogres are also orcish cousins. At the twindling of the Bronze Age, their much less populated and slightly advanced culture is suffering from economic collapse. Ogre refugees, beggars, gypsies and mercenaries form the lower class of orcish society. In time, the two cultures will become one as the iron age progresses. The haves and the have nots.

    And then, later, French revolution: Orcoid style.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)02:00 No.14931554
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    How about ogres and giants be more benign versions of the original Greek cyclops? The were servants of gods who helped build the world or something
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)02:06 No.14931610
    Would you happen to know which culture that bit about gnomes comes from?
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)02:09 No.14931636
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    You rang? Cept, yanno, not drow-lookin dwarves. Honestly, Gears of War-styled campaign where the players are part of a group of survivalist warriors fighting across a land torn apart by the dwarven war.

    I was honestly just thinking about dwarves sinking cities from the underground. Why go to the surface for loot when you can bring the surface to you!? Also, lambent dwarves just sound like they would look like pure frightening.

    Also, I don't want to combine any of the ideas with Gears, it just popped into my head, and I thought it was kind of amusing.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)02:09 No.14931643
    The elder Cyclopes were already benign. It's the short, stupid sons of Poseidon that were dicks.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)02:15 No.14931712

    >16th Century Swiss alchemist, Paracelsus

    I found it on the wikipedia earlier, just thought it was an interesting take on the idea, and it happens to be the original idea.

    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)02:17 No.14931725
    I guess it depends on whether or not you want to do them as good or evil.

    Traditionally, they're evil - but they are also monsters.

    If you want to go the monster route, Ogres being freakishly large cousins of humans works well.

    If you want to flip them as well, then they work as the GOOD cousins of Humans.

    Giants and the like could indeed be servants of the gods.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)02:26 No.14931826
    "let us have a tale of elves that ride by night, with jingling reins, or gnomes of the mine"

    Hmm. Let's flip this a bit.

    "Let us have a tale of gnomes that ride by night, with jingling reins, to carry children away to the mine".

    Yes, I think that works rather well. Short, ugly underground creatures that emerge from their deep mines at night, to carry people away. Those that return return twisted and less than sane.

    Sometimes they take none, but play deadly pranks instead, through magical trickery. They are full of humor but absent of conscience or morality.

    They are as likely to laugh at a surprise decapitation caused by magically disguised blade traps on a door as they are to laugh at innocent pranks. They are particularly good at such "pranks", due to their natural affinity for illusion.

    Unpredictable, strange, ugly and evil, all civilized races have learned to fear the sound of jingling bells.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)02:32 No.14931900
    Okay, so gnomes walk through the earth as easily as a man moves through the air. Alright. So what are they standing on? Can't be the earth, they go through that easily with their magical limbs. So they must stand on the air and walk through the earth, upside down from the rest of the world, peering through the ground with their magical eyes as far as a man can see across on open plain at the hidden treasures and mysterious tunnels. In a gnome invasion, the first sign is the soles of their curved, cloth boots just barely breaking the earth in shifting pockets to press against the grass and air above. To attack the surface world, they "drill" upward, whipping the air into a tumultuous frenzy so they can fall through the pockets. Gnomish invasions are marked by the sound of a dozen storms, and gnomish warriors wear fanciful technomagical armor that surrounds them in a bubble of whipping winds. To fight gnomes at all is foolish -- to fight them with arrows is impossible.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)02:33 No.14931911
    Updated Version:
    The Orcs are "excellent warriors, smiths, and Miners", and have two major civilizations, one based on the French, the other on the Russians.

    The Gnolls are the druidic race, and are inspired by the Mongols. They are nomadic people that ride great wolves.

    The Kobolds are a civilization of inventors, craftsmen, magicians and sorcerers. They may or may not be inspired by Babylonian civilization.

    The Goblins are Romans, with a highly developed civilization and priestly caste.

    The hobgoblins are Greeks, with a strong martial culture, but are also the most flexible of the races.

    The Humans are Assyrian culture inspired, and are perhaps related to ogres and giants. They vary between nomadic barbarians and savage empires.

    The Dwarves are "The Hills have Eyes" type clannish cannibals, who occasionally raid nearby villages and resemble vikings. Some may seek to undermine whole villages and suck their inhabitants into their nightmarish underground realm.

    The Elves are mask wearing sociopaths that live in the woods, who hate the civilized races for stealing animals away from them. They envy the beauty of the civilized races, and make their clothing from the skin of captured victims so they resemble them more.

    The Gnomes are evil fey, in the vein of redcaps. They ride at night to carry people away to their mines. They are terrible tricksters and master illusionists. Their mines are realms of insanity and "humorous" traps.

    The Halflings are savage nomadic wanderers, who specialize in ranged warfare, and are the "canon fodder" race.

    Ogres and Giants are still being debated.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)02:34 No.14931918
    That's boring. It doesn't add anything at all.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)02:36 No.14931940
    Think of it this way: They are master illusionists. It may SEEM to an onlooker that they are walking into solid ground, but they are in fact walking into a well trapped door.

    Any who try to follow will either see normal ground, or be killed by their traps.

    I see their mines as places of madness, death, and illusion, where there could be hundreds of humorous traps, dead ends, and strange places around every corridor. Walking into a gnomish mine is like walking into a place of malevolent madness - with a sense of humor.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)02:37 No.14931950
    I guess having them as the underclass of orcish society works as well.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)02:39 No.14931972
    I'd like it if gnomes were ridiculously alien concepts. They don't behave in reality like the other races do, they don't think like the other races do, they don't even really look like the other races do. They're creepy and horrible and weird and bizarre and Other. Abominable gnomes, really ridiculous fey gnomes, that's what I'd personally like to see.

    Them having tunnels and shit just seems so dwarven. Oh, they kidnap children instead of eating them. Oh, they magic their trapdoors instead of hiding them in contruction. Oh, their ridiculous death traps are funny instead of magmal.

    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)02:40 No.14931979
    >primitive, stupid brutes

    Their civilization was pretty advanced at one point at least in generic D&D setting (Forgotten Realms)
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)02:40 No.14931985

    This is not the first response like this. Most of these /tg/ collaborative homebrews have some stuff that most people ignore, but flat out saying "that's dumb" or "too boring" doesn't encourace people to make OC. I'm not the guy you're talking to but just knock it off. Even if you were OP, it's no way to act. Everyone has their own right and if you don't like it, don't reply to it. It's that simple.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)02:42 No.14932005
    So what you want is more aberration.

    I suppose that could work, but you'd have to redo the actual stats for the race pretty significantly. This is just a flip of the core race.

    Now, we could make cousins of the gnomes that ARE more aberrant, and have both. I think that would be best in any event, normal D&D does it often enough.

    So let's see your concept for an aberrant ur-gnomish race.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)02:43 No.14932011
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    more bug eyed and this will work
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)02:43 No.14932013
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    the ghost dance has failed... what will become of our people?
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)02:44 No.14932023
    OP here, he was actually responding to one of my posts.

    I'm mostly just flitting around and trying to tie fluff together, or encourage more in-depth thought, rather than write much myself.

    Still, I very much enjoy what's been done so far. I think I could make a real core book with just what we've got so far.

    Keep up the good work, guys.
    >> Wop !i2InmLMgFY 05/15/11(Sun)02:46 No.14932051
    I've been thinking about running something like this. I was going to have the traditional races as survivors of an end of the world event who, through powerful magics, transported entire cities, the surrounding countrysides and their populations to this new world.

    Aside from the obvious land related conflicts there will also be new diseases and an encroachment of invasive species

    The world will be roughly representative physically of The Americas and oceania with some elements from the old world. The culture of the colonists will be based on room and the major cultures under its rule. The natives will be culturally similar to Native Americans crossed with some non-european old world cultures.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)02:47 No.14932062
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    We shall troll no more forever.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)02:50 No.14932090
    >crying indian
    >it's supposed to be a native american
    >the man is Italian

    Oh, poster.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)02:50 No.14932092

    What are you smoking son? Everyone knows that Goblins are the paragons of good and civilization. There are more Goblin paladins than of any other race, save perhaps the Orcs.
    >> Wop !i2InmLMgFY 05/15/11(Sun)02:57 No.14932161
    I guess my world doesn't fit quite right though in that I don't intend either side to be all that savage. The new protagonist races will be a little behind, but not by much.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)02:57 No.14932169
    That doesn't sound much like this at all, though. There protagonist and monstrous races remain the same.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)03:05 No.14932244
    So no one has come up with a non stereotyped Native American civilization yet, eh?

    I guess the earlier posters were just trolling.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)03:20 No.14932356
    You know, no one has done Lizardmen yet. And since we don't have a Native American culture here, I nominate the Incas.

    No, not the Aztecs. Lizardmen are ALWAYS Aztecs, but that's when they're the bad guys, sacrificing people on top of their temples to gods of blood.

    The Inca were civilized and much more laid back. I think they'd work pretty darn well.
    >> The Harlequin Rose 05/15/11(Sun)03:28 No.14932433
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    Dragonborn are aztecs
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)03:37 No.14932494
    Oh hey, you're still here!

    Say, if I did a fully fleshed out source book, how would you feel about making the art for it? It wouldn't have to be any more work than what you've done in this thread.

    Just some basic sketches of the heroic and monstrous races, and a cover image.

    I like your stuff, I think it looks good. I'd like to use what you've already done.

    If interested, feel free to e-mail me. I'll do the rules and we can work on the fluff together. You've added some of the best stuff so far.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)04:03 No.14932677
    I like that. It also sets them up as nice rivals for Lizardmen. It will be used.
    >> The Harlequin Rose 05/15/11(Sun)04:39 No.14932892
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    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)05:24 No.14933111
    Phahaha! That smug look cracks me up.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)05:46 No.14933261
    OK, I've taken inspiration from some earlier posts, and here's what I've done to them:

    The Hobgoblins are the ubiquitous race. They tend towards martial interests, but after they become too old to fight (those who survive their youth, anyway)
    they take up politics, or art, or philosophy. This older perspective on these subjects often leads Hobgoblins to insights no other race would be likely to reach. They rarely invent new schools of thought, but once a school has been invented, they will often offer up some of the most interesting contributions.

    Gnolls are in touch with nature to a greater degree than the other Good races, often living in frontier villages. Gnolls are known for their keen sense of
    adventure and their love of sport, fighting, and other physical activity. For them, nature is the hunt: they don't feel comfortable sitting still in cities. Literacy among Gnolls is relatively rare, but they have a rich oral tradition.

    Kobolds are tinkerers. Starting with simple devices, eventually getting to rube goldberg-like contraptions or elegant mechanisms, a kobold of any profession
    who can't fit two gears together isn't worth his salt. They're also magically inclined, which may or may not be related. If Hobgoblins are the warrior poets,
    Kobolds are just plain poets - their intellectual society, and ineptitude at more physical work means that a sharp mind is valued more than a strong arm.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)05:47 No.14933269

    Orcs are excellent warriors and smiths. Born from the earth, they are never quite at home in sunlight; hence, they are good miners. They take pride in being
    able to make a weapon from its ore to a blade. Orcs are fiercely protective of their honour, and will shun anyone they feel has slighted them. Because of this,
    many Orc societies are insular - but befriend an Orc and show him the proper respect and you make a friend for life. This is especially true of Drow, with whom Orcs share a long and friendly history.

    Half-Orcs are the result of mixed marriages between Orcs and Drow. Not so lithe as the Drow, nor so muscular as the Orcs, the Half-Orcs look somewhat like humans with dark green skin and mid-grey hair. They are equally welcome in both Orc and Drow civilisations, although other races tend to think of them as somewhat odd, as they are the only hybrids known to be possible. Thus, many Half-Orcs raised in mixed cities where Orcs and Drow are minorities are filled with a kind of wanderlust, eager to find their place in the world.

    Goblins are considered by many to be simple, slow and lazy, and while there is an unfortunate element of truth in this, they are more complex than many people
    give them credit for. Goblins have never had a large civilisation of their own, instead living in small villages and farming communities within other nations.
    They take life at a somewhat relaxed pace for the most part, but there are a few "eccentrics" in every village, who wish to see the world and perform great
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)05:49 No.14933285

    The Liches and their undead minions are seen with some suspicion by many races, who consider necromancy uncomfortably close to slavery. And while it is true that certain Liches do practise this foul act, most find the very idea repellant. Instead, Liches give bodies to departed souls that wish to live again. The
    subservience the undead give to the Liches is considered a form of payment, and after it is complete the undead is free to go off and do as he or she chooses.

    Mind flayers are a peculiar lot. Their unfortunate diatery requirements mean that food is scarce, and so they are always rare. What few do exist either serve
    other societies as living execution devices, or else wander the world fighting evil - and eating well. Their mighty psionic powers serve them well in this
    role, even if they are unlikely to get invited to dinner parties.

    And the others are essentially the same as when the earlier anon posted them.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)05:50 No.14933296

    Sorry for the weird formatting, I wrote it in Notepad and lines longer than my screen always bug me.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)05:58 No.14933336
    Bump for "Evil races are good" being done well throughout the thread, which is exceptionally fucking rare.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)06:16 No.14933440
    I like all of this. It's largely good, and some of it will definitely go into the core book when it is written.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)06:18 No.14933452
    Gnolls = Celts.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)06:25 No.14933494
    The Celts are pretty overused, though. I'd rather stick with Mongols or some other group than Celts.

    Not because there's anything wrong with Celts, but they're just SO overdone.

    You'll note that most of the groups here are Mediterranean, not European. The French Orcs are the only exception, and they are an even split with Russian Orcs.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)06:55 No.14933682
    Hmm. I know. What about Scythians? They were semi-nomadic, and around for a long time.

    Or the Parthians. Both are good.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)08:00 No.14934065
    It's like that jap crushman cartoon.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)08:05 No.14934097
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    Problem, lizardfolk?
    >> Saurians Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)08:09 No.14934108
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    I think we should make the Saurians which I know is kind of an under played and under represented race but beside that, a very paladin or clerical race. It pretty much states already that they are very stuck in old ways so without changing their normal flavor very much they can become a religious race and have a real place in the world.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)08:16 No.14934137
    Likin this.

    ...ooh, what about fiends and celestials?

    And for 'evil humans', you could use Yahoos as inspiration.
    >> Magus O'Grady 05/15/11(Sun)09:01 No.14934308
    Sorry I've been away so long. Long, shitty graveyard shift at work.

    Well, I had the progressive Goblins make a startling and important discovery that cemented their architectural prowess: Asbestos. They used captured elven slaves to mine it.

    Despite being a low-ish magic setting, the HobGoblins had discovered their own version of Mithril. Painiron. Mechanically identical to Mithril in the regular DnD books, but any weapon made of it counts as a Bane weapon against all types of humanoids, wielder included. Commonly used as an arrowhead to avoid the nasty side effects. The hobgoblins had united under one religious leader, tired of centuries of oppression, and slash-and-burned the Elven homelands, conquering three of their four major cities and imprisoning them in their last sea-side bastion while the captured elves slave away in mines across the continent.

    Lizardfolk actually lived like the cliff-dwelling native americans of the American SouthWest. They built their homes to maximize sunlight exposure and defensibility. Instead of swamp-dwelling, they had a rudimentary climb speed like desert lizards, making it easy to get around their elevated villages. Their eyes had limited color sensitivity, but were keep at picking out patterns, textures, and movement. That led them to very advanced woven artwork, blankets and rugs of vibrant colors (incidental, the dyes are used to alter textures on the threads) hung on poles and bannisters to ripple in the cliff-side winds. Their weaving is second to none and one of their main luxury trade items.

    Bugbears took the place of semi-civilized ogres in my setting (orcs=humans, goblins=halflings, hobgoblins=elves, Bugbears=ogres.) Often living in simple tribes, both traditionalists and progressives try to recruit them for their brawn, and to lessen the threat of them raiding unchecked.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)09:03 No.14934320
    Seprpent Folk in Pathfinder does this.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)11:42 No.14935172
    This is one of my favorite /tg/ threads.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)13:08 No.14935673
    Okay, to whoever it was who was gonna make a corebook out of this: Could you try and keep us updated somehow? This sounds really fun and I'd love to try it out so It'd be nice if you set up a blog for this or regularily make threads on /tg/ about it, like maybe once every week to brainstorm with us or tell us if you've added something new.

    Maybe it's a bit over-ambitious but it'd be nice.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)13:35 No.14935902
    You have low standards.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)13:58 No.14936097
    What about Illithids?

    I think they should have some kind of hyper-scientific civilization, a civilization where philosophers rule by force of reason, rather than by force of force. Isolated by choice, they consider most of the other civilized races to be insane and superstitious, and the monstrous races to be little better than demons or animals. They are master architects, cartographers, astronomers and mathematicians, but their civilization is known for their highly restrictive policies on magic use.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)14:00 No.14936108
    Oh wow, this is such an original concept. Surely this idea has never been posted on /tg/ before. Man, this revolutionizes all of our campaigns!

    Oh wait.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)14:00 No.14936114
    Illithids, by necessity, must have an aggressive element to their civilisation due to their need to devour brains.

    Either they teleport and raid some of the monstrous races, farm monstrous races as livestock or plane shift to the plain of evil dudes with brains and fill their bellies there; either way it's happening.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)14:01 No.14936119
    What's worse is that the inspiration for the new races is fucking pure historical derivative dribble.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)14:01 No.14936120
    My ancestors built Cahokia, you insensitive clod!
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)14:18 No.14936237

    Such an advanced society breeds its own food. Selective breeding over generations has created a race that can do nothing but eat and be eaten. The Illithids consider this a necessary evil.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)14:36 No.14936343
    Technically the south of France touches the Mediterranean, so yeah.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)14:38 No.14936369
    Show me French Orcs before this thread motherfucker!
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)14:44 No.14936409
    All ideas have been used already. It's pretty much impossible to come up with something that doesn't refer to previous works or theories.
    >> The Harlequin Rose 05/15/11(Sun)14:55 No.14936507
    I'm surprised this thread is still here.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)15:08 No.14936612
    Without reading the whole thread, here is my take.

    Hobgoblins and Goblins fill the roles traditionally held by Humans and Halflings. Hobgoblins are widespread, adaptable, and varied race. However, they keep their lawful bent and martial leanings, therefore they generate a surprisingly high number of paladins, out to civilize and tame the world. Goblins live in the shadows cast by their larger kin, relying on the fact that other races underestimate them because of their size.

    Kobolds, living in small underground communities, are skilled engineers, miners, and mages. As such, they combine some aspects of traditional Dwarves and Gnomes. Communities occasionally ally with bronze, silver, or gold dragons.

    Orcs are simple but noble warriors living in the wilds of the world. They are led by shamans with powerful nature magic. They must remain ever-vigilant against the threat posed by cunning and thieving Elves. Small bands of Elves often sneak into their villages at night, killing all that cross their paths and stealing supplies.

    Humans are a ubiquitous threat. Goblins tell their children of Humans clad in black robes raising undead to overrun the goblinoids. Kobolds have tales of Humans encased from head to toe in steel armor, wielding enormous swords and axes. And Orcs have proof -- in the form of Half-Humans -- that their legends of Humans wielding mind magic are all too true.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)15:12 No.14936639
    >half-orcs are from humans raping orcs instead of vice-versa

    lol and win.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)15:14 No.14936654
    That's not an excuse to make a lazy historical expy. Even if you insist you cannot explore new dynamics in a fantasy society (an absurd proposition) you might at least try to make it a little more distinct and individual - hell, realistic. It's bizarre to copy a historical culture directly in a fantasy world.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)15:20 No.14936700
    It doesn't have to be direct, it's a point for inspiration.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)16:30 No.14937178
    there are a lot of great ideas ITT, this should be archived.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)17:45 No.14937915
    submit to sup/tg/ then.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)17:49 No.14937940
    Among the barbarian tribes of the north, boy only becomes man after he rapes an orc.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)18:01 No.14938060
    Orcs are known to have feelings of sympathy-pitty for the Human race. They see humanity as a pile of wasted opportunities and are known to find human females artistically ascetic. It is not unknown for the more gentle-hearted Orcs to adopt human children, or take human brides-Thus producing the creature that is known as a "Half-Orc". However, all large-scale accounts of Orcish cultures attempting to take humanity as a civilization protege has resulted in turmoil, as Man's fickle, selfish nature almost always leads to them backstabbing their allies for short-term, personal gain.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)18:54 No.14938544
    OP here. Thank you for the archive.

    I am currently working with The Harlequin Rose on a core book for this setting. If you are a drawfag and are interested, feel free to join.

    If you are familiar with fourth edition rules, feel free to join - as otherwise this will end up as 3.5, where all of my experience lies.

    This project has shown promise enough that it will be continued well beyond this thread.

    These are points of inspiration only. It is a type of shorthand, of course, and COULD easily be cliche, but the actual civilizations here are not commonly used in games, meaning that the risk of being cliche is rather unlikely.

    A useful alternative would be that they simply eat the brains of livestock, like cows, just as humans eat hamburger but don't typically eat human. (Although in this setting, that may not be the case.)

    Yes. I have a blog, which I used to use to post book reviews. I can update you using that.


    I'll also make more threads as this progresses. But those interested in joining the "core team" which will be necessary to get any work done, should e-mail me with a short list of their qualifications and a pitch. Anything included in these threads may or may not be included, depending on whether or not I think it's appropriate for the setting.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)19:25 No.14938801
    Okay, my blog is updated. I've decided to name the project "The Rise of Iron", although that's subject to change, particularly if something else has that name and I've forgotten about it.

    Once I read over everything in this thread, I'll go ahead and update appropriately.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)19:27 No.14938827
    >But those interested in joining the "core team" which will be necessary to get any work done, should e-mail me with a short list of their qualifications and a pitch. Anything included in these threads may or may not be included, depending on whether or not I think it's appropriate for the setting.
    I laughed quite hard.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)19:38 No.14938944
    It's the approach that works best. This is hardly the first project I've done for /tg/.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)19:40 No.14938966
    So what? I'm playing in a party including an Angel, a Pixie, a Nymph and a half-dragon Minotaur.

    The Elves have retreated to their fascist nightmare realm where they can be all Elfin, the humans have been practically wiped out some centuries ago (by the Elves), the Dorfs are all walled up in Dorf Mountain, the Gnomes are nowhere in sight, and the Halflings refugeed the hell out in a nearby demiplane.

    Also, the Sun has been hidden by the Drow, who finally ended up actually conquering the surface, now imagine what a night the Vampires are having, Tiamat's Black dragon head seceded and conquered land on the Prime Material, the forces of Good have gotten out long ago, crazy old necromancers haunt the ruins, the sky is full of dream larvae, Death has been captured so every dead is a lost soul. And I've forgotten at least half the catastrophes.

    That's when a ragtag bunch of monsters refugeed from all the planes shows up to save (what's left of) the world, one plot point at a time.

    I find it more fun to play with high LA species.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)23:03 No.14940842
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    On gnolls a bit, given how (spotted) hyenas work re: sexual dimorphism, and given that base D&D gnolls kind of ignore this (they're noted as being pretty much indistinguishable to non-gnolls) another way to help characterize (and keep them from being a straight alignment swap) them is that they run counter to pretty much everyone else on issues of which sex has which roles.

    Women will generally be warriors, leaders, heavy lifters, etc. due to being bigger and stronger, men will generally either largely stay at home, have to work that much harder to keep up, or take up professions where they can minimize this disadvantage, like becoming a spellcasting class. Given that they're close to nature and not much for literacy, I'd imagine most of these males would be druids, priests, and a hefty helping of bards - if you can't be a grand warrior, you might as well make yourself useful by ensuring they live on forever in story.

    This leads to some interesting interactions with other races. Females might feel protective of male adventuring partners (regardless of the fact that a male orc is likely physically on par with her or not), while the males might be more prone to listening to/respecting females of other races. Of course, there would also be outliers and contrarians. Those who seek to buck the status quo and act more in accordance with we (and the other PC races are used to seeing).

    (cont., damned field length restrictions)
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)23:05 No.14940855
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    I imagine being born of predatory animal stock and having ties to nature they'd also be far less prone to highly restrictive codes of honor, or futile endeavors. Gnolls might have a reputation for being unfair. In their mind there is no surer proof of victory than who is standing at the end. Use of all your strength, cunning, and deception is authorized. In the end, nobly dead is still dead.

    As such, they probably haven't the best relations with the orcs, orcish knights being all about honorable combat. They've probably lost a few to that sort of thing and both sides aren't happy about how the duel wasn't recognized by the other due to cultural differences like "using poison isn't fair" and "just because our warriors have nuts doesn't mean nutshots are allowed."

    Of the monstrous races, they likely clash the most with elves, the fey obviously trying to steal their fur and fangs for themselves, and the gnolls intent on proving that they're not prey. There aren't much left of their battles beyond trampled foliage, discarded arms, armor and arrows and a lot of blood.

    Neither side believes in letting good meat go to waste, you see.

    Which is probably yet another point of friction with other races, heh.

    That's just drawing on the base physical features. A bit more after I read up on Scythians/Parthians and get some ideas from that.

    Also, there was a thread a while back on how Orcish tusks might affect their linguistics that would be of interest to you, I think. Let me dig it up.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)23:09 No.14940879
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    Found it. Remembered participating in it a bit. Fun thread.

    Also sudden realization that I have too few pictures of Orcs in full metal armor. Then again, almost all depictions of them are barbaric anyways that's probably why.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)23:15 No.14940935
    Blarg Celestials. Don't know what to do other than changing their appearance and names to the opposing kind, since they are the anthropomorphic personificiations of law, good, chaos and evil. Modrons with the personalities of Slaad would be hilarious though.
    >> Anonymous 05/15/11(Sun)23:46 No.14941173
    I've always liked the idea of catfolk as a society of mercantile city-states, like medieval Italy.
    >> Anonymous 05/16/11(Mon)00:14 No.14941396
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    I'm probebly not the only one to do this... but I never write any of my race or species as evil or good.

    Every single "mortal" humanoid is capable of being anything from being chaotically evil to lawfull good and everything inbetween if I said that right.

    I just find it more appropriate to have cultural background, group interest, and native environment to dictate a species' morality.

    In the hinterlands I've had allied giant/human tribes raiding orc villages for resources.

    A somewhat benevolent yet hard ruling Troll empire stomped out by imperialistic Dwarfs.

    Basically any species has the potential to do anything or be any morality.

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