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  • File : 1306033288.jpg-(773 KB, 1680x1050, hylian crest.jpg)
    773 KB Legend of Zelda RPG Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:01 No.15007189  
    Old thread (http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/14975165/) hit the bump limit. Which is awesome because that means shit is getting done.

    >The system so far
    Your stats are divided into three main categories: the Virtues of the triforce (Power, Wisdom, and Courage), your character's basic Attributes (Physical, Mental, and Social), and your various skills (most of which are related to item classes -- bows, blades, heavy weapons, etc).

    Conflict is resolved by a roll & keep d6 pool, using linear comparison for opposed checks. This means that you roll X dice (with X = your ranks in the relevant Attribute + your ranks in the relevant skill) and ignore all but the Y highest (with Y = your ranks in the relevant Virtue). Linear comparison means that in cases of a contested roll (such as in combat) you compare your highest roll to your opponent's highest, your second highest to their second highest, and so forth.

    Character advancement will be classless, and may or may not be level-less (we haven't quite decided that yet). There will be a number of special abilities available to choose from, available in a tree setup under the relevant skill. More ranks in the skill gives access to more advanced abilities related to that skill. Whether abilities will be obtained along with skill ranks or separately has yet to be determined.
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:05 No.15007245
    >The skills
    Here's what we have for skills so far. As you can see, most are related to item use, in keeping with the theme of the video games. The list is currently open to expansion as needed.

    |Blade| - Sword, Knife, Axe, etc.
    |Armor| - Magic Armor, Zora Armor, Darknut Armor, etc.
    |Rod| - Cane of Somaria, Fire Rod, Cane of Byrna, etc.
    |Instrument| - Ocarina, Flute, Pipes, Drums, etc.
    |Tool| - Hookshot, Boomerang, Grappeling Hook, etc.
    |Bomb| - Waterbomb, Powder Keg, Bombchu, etc.
    |Heavy| - Ball and Chain, Greatsword, Hammer, etc.
    |Bow| - Fire Arrows, Ice Arrows, Light Arrows, etc.
    |Shield| - Mirror Shield, Hylian Shield, Kokiri Shield, etc.
    |Magic| - The spells from Ocarina of Time, the medallions from A Link to the Past, etc.
    |Stealth| - One of the few skills not specifically related to item use.

    Skills for social interaction and most physical feats such as climbing, jumping, riding, and so forth probably will not be necessary, since they can probably be resolved simply through the Attributes and Virtues alone (as explained in the next post).
    >> Sir Scribe 05/21/11(Sat)23:07 No.15007259
    Holy balls that is a nice picture.

    Right, My questions from the end of the last thread stand.
    >If we keep hearts as 3 + Courage + Physical, what do we do for the magic meter? Mental + Wisdom? or Mental + Wisdom + Magic? maybe even just Mental + Magic.

    >Do we have a full list of Skills yet? I remember Stealth was added... would we have some way of giving characters resistance towards flinching? Link himself is pretty easy to knock back, but bigger enemies don't even flinch when you drop bombs on them.
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:13 No.15007313
    Not getting knocked back would fall under Power's purview.

    On some things not needing skills: They have a much smaller rolled pool, producing lower results than things that do have skills. Keep that in mind.
    >> Bat Country 05/21/11(Sat)23:15 No.15007333
    To me, it feels like Stealth, Flinch and the like should be separate of the item skills. Otherwise it feels kind of out of place. Maybe have those sort of intrinsic to all characters, roll using straight virtue/attribute combinations.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/21/11(Sat)23:16 No.15007342
    Excuse me while I derp.

    Please continue.
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:20 No.15007372
    >Virtues & Attributes
    While certain Virtue/Attribute combinations go better together than others, there's at least some application for each Virtue in the Physical, Mental, and Social arenas.

    Quite straightforward; Power governs the use of |heavy| weapons and general feats of strength. Power also contributes to damage dealt in general, even for weapons not specifically governed by it.
    Power governs the use of offensive magic, both of the damaging and debilitating varieties.
    Power governs the more forceful types of social interaction, such as intimidation and browbeating.

    One of the trickier categories; this would probably include |stealth| and |bows|, and perhaps dodging as well? Needs some fleshing out.
    A match made in heaven. Of course, Wisdom governs knowledge of lore and useful information. It also governs defensive and healing magic, and increases your overall magical capacity.
    Wisdom governs social graces and logical rhetoric. Diplomacy and civil discussion goes here.

    Courage governs the use of |blades| and |tools|, as well as riding, climbing, swimming, and other feats of adventurous derring-do. It also increases your total number of hearts.
    Naturally, Courage governs tenacity, resolve, and...well, courage. It also governs the use of magic for travel and utility (think Farore's Wind).
    Courage governs your ability to inspire people -- either to perform heroic deeds, or simply to trust and like you. Courage has a big impact on first impressions.
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:20 No.15007378
    But you should be able to focus on them.
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:21 No.15007384
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    Cool zelda art? Cool zelda art
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:22 No.15007397
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    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:22 No.15007398
    What is Courage/Mental governed mental/magical resistance?
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:23 No.15007405
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:23 No.15007409
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    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:24 No.15007414
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    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:24 No.15007419
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    >> Bat Country 05/21/11(Sat)23:24 No.15007421
    Point. Having to increase them indirectly through raising virtues/attributes would have kind of bizarre side-effects under the current system.
    I would suggest separating item and physical skills, but I don't know if that would make the system too convoluted for what we're looking for.
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:25 No.15007427
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    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:25 No.15007429
    Do we have an IRC up?

    We probably should.
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:26 No.15007437
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    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:28 No.15007454
    What's the point of having social attributes in a Zelda RPG? Wouldn't it all be about adventuring?
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:28 No.15007457
    Don't turn this into an image dump. It will just kill the thread faster.

    However, those are awesome pictures. Keep posting them, just contribute a little while you do.
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:29 No.15007459
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    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:29 No.15007464
    >On some things not needing skills: They have a much smaller rolled pool, producing lower results than things that do have skills. Keep that in mind.

    True. My thoughts originally were that, since most of these are unopposed rolls, you can just set the bar low enough to where it's appropriate for the smaller pools. I figure it's best to keep the skill list as small as possible to keep things streamlined.

    >To me, it feels like Stealth, Flinch and the like should be separate of the item skills. Otherwise it feels kind of out of place. Maybe have those sort of intrinsic to all characters, roll using straight virtue/attribute combinations.
    Flinching can probably be done without skills, but I figured stealth is best to have as a skill because it's more of a specialized thing. A daring adventurer can reasonably be expected to climb and jump and whatnot, so doing that sort of thing under Courage/Physical makes sense; however, you can't really make such an argument for the ability to sneak around undetected.
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:30 No.15007469
    Not really. Wind Waker and its spin-offs seems a lot more social then the other titles.
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:31 No.15007480
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    >> Bat Country 05/21/11(Sat)23:32 No.15007492
    Not necessarily. There was always a good part of the game spent dealing with royalty, doing favors and the like. It could be even more central with non-silent heroes.
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:33 No.15007497
    >One of the trickier categories; this would probably include |stealth| and |bows|, and perhaps dodging as well? Needs some fleshing out.

    I think that's good. Stealth and ranged combat would rely much upon intellect and cunning.
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:34 No.15007503
    There should be some concrete way of handling social interaction, but you're right, social stuff should take a backseat to the adventuring. Hence why there are no social skills, just the Social attribute. The attribute alone doesn't add much at all to the complexity, but it gives the ability to handle social scenarios if/when they come up.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/21/11(Sat)23:35 No.15007508
    Well, what you have to remember is that you're playing in the Zelda WORLD, yes, but you're not Link himself.

    A RPG in this setting, as opposed to a video game, has WAY more opportunity for social interaction, considering the amount on NPC's and settlements there are.

    what was suggested was that skills arent just "you can use this item", it's what you can do with it, with more levels in a skill opening up more possibilities. Enough points in |blade| and you can start doing some of the crazier sword techniques from the game, enough in |Instruments| and you learn more songs, and so on. points in |Stealth| would be just how sneaky you are, and what you can do while sneaking.

    Not sure if this was mentioned, but a characters Heart meter is determined by 3 + Courage + Physical, and each weapon has it's own damage increment. for example, an iron sword dealing half-heart increments, while an Iron Knuckle's Axe deals 2 hearts per increment. How many increments of damage you do with an attack depends on how many successes you get with an attack roll.
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:37 No.15007520
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    Or you can all stop trying to reinvent the wheel.
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:38 No.15007536
    So... what will this be?

    My vote is on d100. Most flexible. d6 would be good if you want to target new people, who have never roleplayed before.
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:39 No.15007548
    Screw the d20 system. We're making a better ZRPG.
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:39 No.15007552
    Real GMs run d12 systems and force their players to have a handful of them for no better reason than because they were told to.
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:41 No.15007562
    I'm completely new to this thread/project, but in all honesty I think I'd prefer it to a d20 system game.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/21/11(Sat)23:41 No.15007569
    With the Roll+Keep system, it's pretty much been decided that it's d6 based.

    What would make the d100 more flexible?
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:42 No.15007572
    Yeah, I checked out the d20 system Zelda. Seemed kinda suck and didn't really have the Zelda-feel to it.
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:42 No.15007574
    If somebody wants to add more social skills and other such things, that would be easy enough to do. It's literally just adding it, and if you want to you write up a few abilities/techniques for them. We could even toss in a bunch in a sort of add-on way to the basic system when that's done. Y'know, "the basic system doesn't use these, but if they fit what you're after they're nice."
    >> Bat Country 05/21/11(Sat)23:42 No.15007577
    The thing is that Zelda d20 just doesn't feel like Zelda, thematically. This system, or what we have so far, hews a lot closer to the spirit of the games.
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:42 No.15007578
    d20 is awesome.


    for DnD. Stop trying to force other systems into it. It doesn't work. It never did. That was the problem with d20 modern. It works because it was MADE SPECIFICALLY FOR THAT GAME. It does not carry over well to doing something else.
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:43 No.15007585
    I would be ok with separating item and non-item skills, but only if (1) we can come up with enough non-item skills, and (2) if we can come up with enough to do with those skills to justify actually having them have ranks.

    Alternatively, rather than having separate skills, perhaps it would work to have a standard bonus based on experience? Even if we go with a level-less system, you can still say "for every X experience points you've earned, add one die to the pool for any check not governed by a skill". That way you can keep getting better at things without having a whole section for the skill and without needing to boost your attributes.
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:44 No.15007594
    d100 is just d20 with uselessly many possible results.
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:45 No.15007600
    That would be good. Include an appendix of optional rules for people who want a little more crunch in certain areas, but keep them out of the core system to keep things streamlined.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/21/11(Sat)23:46 No.15007607
    Sounds good to me.

    exactly how many points should we allow for each pool? I'm thinking maybe 9 points for virtues, 12 points for attributes, and... I don't know, 5 for skills?

    (and was my question on the magic meter's length ever addressed? I wanted some opinions on that one.)
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:49 No.15007627
    Sounds too high to me. Far too many dice. Really, I think everything should be capping out around like 5.
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:50 No.15007642
    5 for virtues
    10 for attributes
    5 for skills
    >> Bat Country 05/21/11(Sat)23:50 No.15007644
    That really depends on how much power you want one spell to take.
    If we did 2 or 3 mana per use of a magical item, maybe 1 or 2 a round for things like the Cane of Byrna, then 3 + Wisdom + Mental seems like it would fit pretty well.
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:52 No.15007659
    I'd say use a d10, it has enough granularity and you can easily use it to pull a d100 when you need it to

    I'd suggest you read Danse Macabre of Vampire the Requiem. It has social mechanics that are both simple and easily adaptable.

    All together this is looking more similar to a WoD or Shadowrun style system (although with simple adding instead of a bellcurve of successes), so you might want to consider a 3rd over-category of things like merits or perks or such to handle things outside skills and the virtue/Attribute scheme
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:54 No.15007676
    >(and was my question on the magic meter's length ever addressed? I wanted some opinions on that one.)

    I don't think it was. Personally, I think you should get magic points proportional to Mental + Wisdom. Should have some kind of multiplier on it, so you actually have a decent amount of points to magic power to work with, but the exact size of the multiplier depends on the size of the costs we decide on for the various spells. I don't think the |magic| skill should contribute to your magic meter, since expanding the magic meter in the games was always something separate from getting new ways to use the magic meter, and was something that only happened rarely.

    >exactly how many points should we allow for each pool? I'm thinking maybe 9 points for virtues, 12 points for attributes, and... I don't know, 5 for skills?
    That kind of depends on what kind of scaling we use for the point buy on the virtues and attributes. As for skills, I think it'd be better to have more like 8 or 10 points available at character creation, but put a cap on how many ranks you can have at any given skill to start out.
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:55 No.15007694
    you should expand the skills a little more to include things a little beyond what you just see in the games

    For example, unarmed combat/grappling

    the skills remind me for World of Darkness fighting style merits than say D&D skills since they open up more options
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:59 No.15007727
    >All together this is looking more similar to a WoD or Shadowrun style system (although with simple adding instead of a bellcurve of successes)

    That's really pretty far off. Roll&Keep + Linear Comparison isn't much like Storyteller.
    This post is what I based the suggestions we've ended up running with on, should explain the idea:

    Not sure if we're settled on successes or totaling up values for non-opposed checks, though.
    >> Anonymous 05/21/11(Sat)23:59 No.15007731
    Someone mentioned in the last thread that having the virtues be the sole determiner of the number of dice kept gives the virtues a bit too much sway, and that got me thinking, maybe we could make it so you can also use attributes toward keeping as well? Perhaps something like you could forgo adding dice from attributes in order to increase your number of dice kept, at a rate of one die kept for every two dice removed from the pool?

    That would make the attributes a bit more important, rather than just being essentially meta-skills.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)00:03 No.15007764
    That could work. Seems like it would open up more options for what you can do with an action, as well.

    For unopposed checks, like hitting a switch with an arrow, or a non-skill check like pushing a block, I imagine we could do something like "You need X number of roll greater than Y to succeed". for example, at least 2 rolls of >4 to push a heavy block. Say a character has 4 Power, 5 Physical, that shouldnt be too hard. The 1 Power, 1 Physical musician, on the other hand...
    >> Bat Country 05/22/11(Sun)00:04 No.15007771
    What we could do is have different weapons hit with different virtue/attribute combinations. Though having a Social-based weapon would be kind of bizarre.
    >> Bat Country 05/22/11(Sun)00:08 No.15007805
    This makes sense, basically just having a concrete set of rolls to oppose.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)00:10 No.15007828
    >Social-based weapon
    and now I'm picturing Link beating someone to death with his ocarina.

    I don't know about you guys, but I understand a system well when I see it in action. Someone want to throw up a mock character sheet to see how this works?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:11 No.15007838
    I wouldn't limit it to always being a certain roll

    depending on the style in which you fight you could very well use any of the three virtues. A wisdom/physical would lead to a defensive style, courage/physical would be a well balanced mix of offense and defense, and power/physical would be overpowering the enemy and such
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:11 No.15007839
    What about adding them to determine both?

    IE: Lets say they add up to a total pool of, lets say, 10 dice.

    You then choose to not roll as many of those as you want (up to half, rounded down), and instead, thats how many dice you keep.

    So the person in that pool could choose to roll 5 dice, and keep all of them. Or roll 8 dice, but only keep 2.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:11 No.15007849
    >What we could do is have different weapons hit with different virtue/attribute combinations.

    We already have that, as noted in >>15007372. For instance, heavy weapons like the Megaton Hammer are Power-based, while bows are Wisdom-based, and lighter blades (like the Master Sword) are Courage-based.

    All weapons should probably be physical, though. The only one off the top of my head that I can see being under mental would be Bombchus. Magic is all mental, though.

    Social weapons, though...lolno.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:16 No.15007901
    In that case, there's not much point in having distinct Virtues, Attributes, and Skills, apart from thematics.

    By having the different stats govern different aspects of the roll, you show their relative importance. With the virtues governing the kept dice count, they show themselves to be the most fundamental feature of the character. The attributes apply to a wide range of tasks, and if you let them also contribute to the kept dice count, but in a more limited fashion, you mark them as important, but not as important as the virtues. By limiting skills to only influencing the size of the pool, never the number kept, this shows them to be the most superficial aspect of the character.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:16 No.15007905
    Far too easily abused. We don't want people optimizing their dice distribution like that.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:17 No.15007910
    What the fuck am I reading?

    That is a horrible system. Why would ANYONE do that? You DO NOT put players in control of the bellcurve. That is extremely stupid. You can let them tweak it through stats, but actually giving them complete control over it? Not a good idea.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:23 No.15007962
    why not just have another stat which governs the number of dice you can keep that's seperate? Or just do away with the keeping dice thing all together.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:24 No.15007971
    or better yet, use skills to govern the number of dice you get to keep
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:24 No.15007979
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    So... what are the 'default'/generic assumed roles of the player?

    Is it like 4 swords, with each player being a split between the 'real' hero?
    Wind Waker, where there are a couple of people descended from sages, who all have a role to play?
    Or are they just random people trying to save the day?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:27 No.15008007
    If it were my call? PC's have the blood of heroes, whether it's a sage or some ancient knight (Which was apparently Link's heritage?).
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)00:28 No.15008018
    hm... Lots of disagreement on the Roll/Keep count...

    Personally, I thought the Roll Attribute + Skill, keep Virtue was fine. That basically boils down to your Attribute and Skill both determining your odds of success, and your Virtue determining the magnitude of your success.

    You can have tons of Physical and |Heavy|, but it comes right down to Power for how much beating you can dispense with that hammer.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:30 No.15008043
    and at that point everyone dumps their points into power and courage and wisdom get thrown to side
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:32 No.15008056
    >why not just have another stat which governs the number of dice you can keep that's seperate?
    That would be the virtues. That's pretty much their primary role; the bonuses to damage/magic/health are just add-ons.

    >Or just do away with the keeping dice thing all together.
    That would slow down gameplay tremendously. Seriously, why would you want to deal with a pile of fifteen dice every turn rather than just picking the four or five highest and using those?
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)00:32 No.15008066
    You seem to be overlooking that it's rather unlikely every single party member is going to play a |Heavy| based character. I can't see the party of 5 Iron Knuckles getting very far in their epic quest.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:33 No.15008077
    Unless you want to play a mage, or an archer, or a sneak, in which case you will put points in Wisdom.

    Every virtue has a role. Not every character will care about every virtue. That is completely okay.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:34 No.15008082
    then move to success based dice rolls, its quicker anyway and produces a good bellcurve
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:37 No.15008107
    except like >>15007838 said, saying that a sword is ALWAYS courage is a painfuly artificial distintion.

    Yes someone weapons will almost always fall into a single group but most of them will be free to fit into any area depending on how they are used
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:39 No.15008119
    I kinda pictured it as Majora's Mask, but instead of a single player switching masks, its just separate players all at once. Each has multiple roles, and would be useful for different things.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:39 No.15008124
    By success-based dice rolls, do you mean a roll-to-beat-target-number like what's used in d20 systems?

    That's a lot harder to make work with the Power/Wisdom/Courage paradigm, which is pretty much the defining feature of what we're trying to accomplish.

    At any rate, can we please stop trying to tear down what progress has been made so far and actually try to move forward?
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)00:41 No.15008144
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    I was making an analogy to address a different problem, I am aware not all physical weapons will use power. The |Heavy| group of weapons, however, it has pretty much been decided will be Power-exclusive. Pic related.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:41 No.15008146
    no, success based means like Storyteller or Shadowrun, where any die that comes as above X counts as a success. So lets say you are using a d6 then you any roll that comes up with a 5 or 6 is a success and then you just count the number of successes scored.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:45 No.15008171
    what I am saying is that only a very few weapons will only lead to a single virture being used
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:45 No.15008173
    I'd be open to allowing different fighting styles for different virtues as >>15007838 suggested, but it would be a bit more difficult to flesh out. For one thing, we still need to determine how the turn structure works...

    Should both combatants roll simultaneously, or should it be more turn based with distinct attackers and defenders for each roll? How virtue-based fighting styles work will depend on how we decide to do this.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:47 No.15008196
    the default target number on d6's would be 4. so 4, 5, and 6 would all be successes
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:47 No.15008199
    no it wouldn't just drop the stupid dice keeping crap. It works when you want to pidgeon hole things but when you have characters like Link who are the epitome of flexibility you want to use a system that can handle it.

    And here's something I do myself in storyteller regarding turns. The init order only says who goes first, you don't HAVE to go. If you choose to wait you can roll to interupt someone else's action so you can do the whole wait-and-see thing without getting gimped for it.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:48 No.15008208
    >If we keep hearts as 3 + Courage + Physical
    You have to remember that Link starts the game with 12 HP. Its just shown as 3 hearts, each divided into 4 sections.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:49 No.15008215
    really? I thought it was 5 and 6 were succeses.

    oh well using a fluid target number is dumb anyway, locking it and then just adjusting the number of dice in the pool works achieves the same effect much quicker.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:50 No.15008219
    >There will be a number of special abilities available to choose from, available in a tree setup under the relevant skill. More ranks in the skill gives access to more advanced abilities related to that skill.
    the different abilities can each be tied to one of the three virtues
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:51 No.15008235
    That still slows down play more than a roll & keep, and I fail to see what sort of benefit it would offer over roll & keep.

    If you can give a solid argument that something's wrong with the roll & keep system, we can consider changing it. Otherwise, just drop it. So far all that's been said is "hey, why not change it?", with no reasons given as to why it should change. And when changing the dice system means overhauling everything else we've accomplished, we're going to need something better than just "why not".
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:52 No.15008240
    What about a Mouse Guard/Burning Wheel style combat system, where you choose to attack and defend and what type of attack/defense you're going to use, then everyone resolves at once.
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)00:52 No.15008249
    Good point.
    No, shut up, the roll-keep thing is awesome and helps set this game apart.

    I think I prefer simultaneous, but this needs to be discussed... so does race.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)00:52 No.15008250
    Turn order was addressed in the prev. thread. Turn based, with Courage dictating Initiative was the general consensus. Though opting to delay and interrupt an opponent's action is certainly viable.

    When I was suggesting Turn-based earlier, I was focusing on how virtually every enemy in Zelda takes turns. It defends, then it flashes it's weak point and attacks. Or some will attack, then expose their weak point, then attack some more. Seemed like it correlated will with Turn-based combat.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)00:55 No.15008274
    We had already addressed that there were weapons/attacks that only did quarter-hearts or half-hearts of damage. (3 + Courage + Physical) x 4 would calculate HP, I suppose, but Hearts remain 3 + Courage + Physical.
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)00:55 No.15008278
    So... turns sort of like 40k with different phases devoted to different actions, maybe?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:56 No.15008289
    all it does is slightly skew the bell curve higher, which can easily be accounted for in a success based system by more dice or a lower target number.

    And simply wanting to keep a mechanic because it makes it unique is one of the worst reasons to do so
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)00:57 No.15008299
    Okay, as long as it's addressed. Last thread was damn long, I must have missed that in there.

    Just to clarify what exactly are we doing with the shield skill?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)00:58 No.15008309
    12 hp, yes, but still 3 hearts. Just like in the games, you could take damage in fractions of hearts.

    Also, I just realized if we're having a required minimum value of 1 for all virtues and attributes, it should probably be just 1 + physical + courage. That way your minimum starting hearts is 3.
    Or if we allow negative starting attributes, then adjust the number accordingly. Point being, if hearts = 3 + physical + courage and you can't have less than 1 point in any attribute or virtue, your minimum hearts is 5, which isn't right.
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)00:59 No.15008310
    Success-based systems are bland and played themselves out in the 90s. The Roll and Keep system is at this point integral to the system, or we wouldn't have the separate attributes and virtues. The issue is not under discussion.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)01:02 No.15008356
    >Shield skill
    That I myself wasnt too clear on. I believe it added to your Dice pool when defending against an attack. To black with a shield being something like Shield + Physical, keep courage (or wisdom)

    Hmmm... perhaps.

    I suppose now's as good a time as any to discuss race. I believe confirmed playable are Hylian, Zora, Goron, Deku Scrub, and Gerudo. With possible additions/supplements of Kokiri, Rito, Subrosian, Moblin, and Skullkid.

    any ideas for Racial bonuses?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:03 No.15008358
    >And simply wanting to keep a mechanic because it makes it unique is one of the worst reasons to do so

    Simply wanting to change a mechanic in a work-in-progress where everyone involved has been thinking in terms of that mechanic for much of the progress of the brewing just because another mechanic can give the same mathematical results is also a shitty reason. You still have yet to give sufficient reason to changing the mechanic other than that you'd prefer something else, so we're not going to overhaul all the progress we've made so far just because you said so.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)01:05 No.15008387
    Ah, easily missed point near the end of the last thread, but we discussed being able to take Attribute scores in the negatives, to please min/maxers. That way, if you really wanted nothing but a brutish Darknut, you could drop Mental down to -2, or take -2 Physical if you wanted a very fragile, but very cunning and adept Sage.
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)01:05 No.15008388
    I suggest that instead of races giving stat bonuses, they might just have abilities and bonuses to skills. For instance a Rito can roll Courage/Physical to fly, Gorons keep an extra die on any Bombs roll, etc.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:06 No.15008394
    >any ideas for Racial bonuses?
    I say to hell with racial bonuses. That's just my preference though. I hate 'em.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:07 No.15008403
    >>15008394 here
    this idea is good >>15008388
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:07 No.15008406
    Didn't someone mention Stalfos?
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)01:08 No.15008408
    While I agree that no Virtue bonuses should be given, I think that Attribute bonuses should be present. It personally doesnt make sense to me that you could build a Deku Scrub who can have as high Physical as a Goron.

    and, minor bit. I don't remember Gorons really being associated with bombs, as a race. Am I forgetting a game?
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)01:08 No.15008418
    As to the shield skill it occurs to me that it could also be used to roll to counter magic attacks with a Mirror Shield, and to shield bash (ala TP).
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:09 No.15008425
    I'd tell you it's quicker and allows for flexible appilications of the mechanics... but if you don't want to listen i'll leave and let you all make things more complicated than they have to be
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:09 No.15008428
    How are we justifying a Kokori leaving the woods?
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)01:09 No.15008430
    Ocarina of Time. Bomb flowers grow on Death Mountain. Gorons pick them and refine them into bombs. Also Goron Link being able to use powder kegs in MM
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:09 No.15008434
    I like this idea.

    Maybe even through a bit of what 4e did, and give each race a unique power?
    >> ANDRAMMELECH VII, DEMON MAJOR 05/22/11(Sun)01:11 No.15008463
    Makar and Saria left the woods, didn't they?

    then again Makar's a Korok and Saria was a sage, so that may be exceptions.

    >I'm more of a Wind Waker fan
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)01:11 No.15008466
    You have not demonstrated how it is appreciably more flexible. Please contribute.

    Special protection by the Deku tree, maybe?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:12 No.15008471
    If we're going with a turn-based system, shield skill could simply add dice to your defense pool. Or alternatively, it could be used to sacrifice attack dice for defense dice. For instance, if you had 3 ranks in shield, you could reduce the size of your attack pool by up to three dice, and add that many dice to your defense pool anytime you're attacked until your next turn.

    Making it turn-based makes it a bit easier to do virtue-based fighting styles, too. At its simplest, you could have someone using a Power style get a bonus die on the attack, but lose a die on defense, and vice-versa for a Wisdom fighter. Courage would get the baseline number of both attack and defense dice.

    And speaking of defense dice...since attacks are done with weapon skills, we'll probably need an evasion skill to keep up. That could also be done with a choice of styles -- either Wisdom or Courage.
    And if we're doing styles, we should probably also drop the bows = Wisdom/tools = Courage split for ranged weapons and let players choose between Wisdom or Courage for ranged...
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)01:12 No.15008475
    That would be why I dropped them from the "confirmed playable" list.

    What power would Hylians get? And I still somewhat believe some Racial bonuses make sense, since Gorons are unarguably bigger and tougher, on average, then other races, Deku Scrubs are as a rule more social (The merchant bastards are EVERYWHERE.) and so on.
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)01:14 No.15008494
    That's good thinking!

    We could just use Koroks I suppose. Or assume that the inability to leave the woods was a result of the first Great Deku tree to protect them, and in a timeline where the Kokiri are not transformed into Koroks that the second Deku Tree might let them go.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)01:15 No.15008502
    No classes... considering no levels... I like where this is going. Sorry i couldn't be on the ground floor for this, internet was out... for weeks.
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)01:16 No.15008512
    Hm. Hylians, as the favored people of the gods, could get an extra roll, perhaps.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:16 No.15008519

    Any other concrete examples for when to use skill checks for items, and what skill check results mean?
    Roll&Keep is probably the least familiar of the resolution systems around, since I think only L5R is the big system that's known for it.

    Stuff like Blade, Bow, and Tool are all pretty intuitive - you can hit things with greater accuracy, or use things more efficiently.

    But then some items are sort of inherently binary - like, the Cane of Somaria creates blocks. What does a higher check result mean in this case?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:17 No.15008530
    Bigger blocks! or that explosive thing that happens when you dispelled one in LttP
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)01:17 No.15008531
    More solid blocks or a lower MP cost or something.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:18 No.15008532
    I don't see why we have to force stereotypes. A brawler deku scrub could be pretty cool. Extremely tough 'bark' covering its body.

    Likewise, they might play a goron that grew up outside of the mountains, and thus doesn't have its skin made quite as tough from whats up there.

    As for Hylians, weapon/armor bonus. Hylians are one of the few races to actually USE manufactured weapons, most others use their natural skills.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:19 No.15008549

    I think the major disagreement is more from the fact that Roll&Keep is just unfamiliar. Like I noted, only L5R uses it amongst the many systems that get discussed on /tg/.

    If you could walk through some examples specific to the system it would probably help. It's just a matter of wrapping your head around what the numbers "mean", or more accurately, what they are an abstraction of.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:20 No.15008566
    Or it could just be a legend to them. In reality, once they leave they go "HOLY SHIT. The world is HUUUUGE. I want to see everything!" and then end up never coming back, and everyone just assumes they are dead.

    They are a race of children.

    That is totally something they would do.
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)01:22 No.15008577
    There you go. That could do.

    Not a terrible idea.

    Hah! True.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)01:22 No.15008578
    The Cane of Somaria itself is just part of the |Rod| skill, though. The most bare-ass basic of that skill would be the capacity to use the Cane of Pacci, and other mundane, but potentially useful, rods. A character with a very high |Rod| score would wield
    the Rod of Fire and napalm everything in sight, for example.

    good to have you with us!
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:22 No.15008581
    This is a good idea, but I would second Sir Scribes argument that at least some races should get attribute bonuses.

    Just some brainstorming here...
    *I like the bonus to kept dice with bombs
    *can roll Power/Physical to make a rolling attack to bowl over the opponent.
    *resistance (immunity?) to fire-based attacks
    *bonus to physical; penalty to mental? (as far as I can remember, most gorons didn't strike me as particularly bright)
    *breathe underwater
    *bonus to kept dice for swimming checks
    *weakness to fire-based attacks
    *bonus to mental, penalty to physical? (I seem to recall Zoras tending toward a more scholarly sort of lifestyle)
    >Deku scrubs
    *bonus to evasion due to size
    *bonus to stealth in woodland environs
    *bonus on Social checks to barter?
    *can roll Courage/Physical to spit seeds as a ranged attack
    *I'd say penalty to physical, but...I can't say that either mental or social makes sense for a bonus.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)01:23 No.15008590

    Like Kender

    only not at all shitty.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:24 No.15008593
    I like that as a justification. Maybe tie it in to how the Koroks go and try to plant new Deku trees in faraway places?

    That would make the koroks/kokiri some kind of bizarre druid/kender hybrid though...
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:24 No.15008595
    so can someone tell me what the current rolling structure is? You add what and what and keep what? What modifies it? How does armor, evasion, and blocking work?

    'cause i'm lost
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:26 No.15008615


    Examples of play would seem to be highly appreciated at the moment.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:27 No.15008620

    Actually, why not have something close to the 3.5 Racial Paragons system?

    Instead of putting ranks into a skill, you could put it into Sterotype, or Race, or something like that. If you have no points in it, your completely free from stereotypes, and able to build your character however you want. However, putting points into it would give cool and unique abilities, based on your race.

    Each race will basically just be a new skill tree, and you just pick which one you want at level 1, and can't change it.

    Or maybe add masks as items, that let you temporarily switch which skill tree you are using, as well as gain access to new ones, not available as race options.

    If you DON'T take the racial skills, then your race is more or less just fluff, with no impact on the game.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:29 No.15008633
    i guess you could treat it as a specialized perk tree or something, but in that case you need to provide sufficent reason as to why you wouldn't take it
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)01:32 No.15008655
    Why do we need to make Kokiri playable, again? What would be the point.

    As for whether or not to have racial bonuses... what are racial bonuses? What is the "baseline" for the system, and where do the other races fit on that line. It's pretty obvious Gorons are huge and made of rock, and Zora are fast fish people, and Deku Scrubs are crazy plant people... they can't all have the same stats. They can't even acheive the same minimums and maximums. Even a bark armored Deku is not going to be anywhere near as tough as a Goron of any type.

    For skills, careful how you divide them and what skill does what. While bombs, bomb flowers, and bombchus are all kinds of explosives, they are not used anything alike. A bombchu is aimed or driven down a path, it runs. Bombs, bomb flowers, and barrel bombs, are set or thrown. Skills are best divided by use to be more intuitive.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:35 No.15008681
    well if i knew how dice pools were put together with any certainty I could help out and all
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)01:36 No.15008694
    Roll Attribute+Skill, keep Virtue.

    >I'd say penalty to physical, but...I can't say that either mental or social makes sense for a bonus.

    Social does. They seem good at begging for their life and they're capable merchants.`
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:36 No.15008695
    Not really actually.

    Think of Link in OoT. He does not act like ANY other Hylian, because he wasn't raised with them.

    You can easily explain it as just not growing up around your race. And even if you DID, there are still exceptions. Malak was hardly stereotypical, In one of the games (OoT I think?) there was a Goron who wasn't like the others, and couldn't even roll into a ball.

    The list goes on. I think that at this point, pretty much every race has had at least 1 example where they didn't fit the stereotype even remotely close.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:37 No.15008704
    so if skills ALSO open up a tree of things you can do... double stacking seems like a bad idea

    and then how does that work in with the attribute + virture stuff since that makes utterly no sense when viewed in that light

    I really think using skills to dertermine what you keep is better than virtures because then you can more easily mix and match stuff to create specific effects more readily
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:39 No.15008718
    Here's an example of how the roll & keep, linear comparison system would work.

    Suppose character A is attacking character B. Both have Courage as their chosen fighting style. A has Courage 3, Physical 2, and Blade 3. A rolls 5d6 (3 Blade + 2 Physical) and gets 6, 3, 4, 2, 1. A keeps the three highest dice (3 Courage) and ignores the rest: 6, 3, and 4.
    B has Courage 3, Physical 2, and Dodge 2. B rolls 4d6 (2 Dodge + 2 Physical) and gets 5, 1, 5, 2. B also keeps the three highest (3 Courage): 5, 5, and 2.

    So then you compare the rolls in order from highest to lowest for both combatants.
    A's highest was 6, vs B's 5. That's one success.
    A's second highest was 4, vs B's 5. That's a failure.
    A's lowest kept die was 3, vs B's 2. That's success #2.

    So A got two successes. If A is wielding a weapon with a damage increment of 1/2 heart, that means B takes 1 heart of damage (2 successes * 1/2 heart increment).

    Armor reduces the damage increment of any weapon used against you. Suppose B was wearing armor that reduced the damage increment by 1/4 heart. B would only take 1/2 heart of damage from A's attack (2 successes * 1/4 heart increment).

    Does that help?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:40 No.15008721
    I thought it was canon that they stay young forever as long as they never leave the forest and once they do they start to age normally, kinda like Neverland I guess. Apparently there's a theory that Kokiri who leave the forest become Koroks
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)01:40 No.15008723
    Elaborate, I'm having a little trouble following.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:42 No.15008743
    ok that makes sense but that has more dice being rolled than D&D and will slow things down even more
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:43 No.15008751
    all the virture+attribute stuff in >>15007372

    is that just being thrown out? Because under what you presented you're going to need quite a bit more skills to cover climbing, general athletics, and so on.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)01:43 No.15008756
    Oh my god NO. Just add the roll cumulative, highest wins.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:45 No.15008767
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:45 No.15008768
    I like the idea of a "racial" skill tree, but I think there should probably still be some hard-and-fast racial effects. Barring some bizarre mutation, a Zora will always be able to breathe underwater, a Deku scrub will always blend in with a forest environment, and so forth. Even a Goron who grew up outside of a volcanic environment would probably still be pretty resistant to fire -- that thick skin has to have at least some genetic basis.

    If we were talking your typical humanoid fantasy races, I can see the argument against having hard-and-fast racial differences, but there are some pretty significant morphological disparities between the LoZ races that should definitely be reflected in the crunch.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:46 No.15008773
    actually I already understood that part just fine. it's unopposed rolls I don't get.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:48 No.15008791
    "No" to the linear comparison, or "no" to the whole shebang?

    I can see dropping the linear comparison, but I don't think the drop/keep aspect is too bad.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:48 No.15008798
    well while i don't like that system i would suggest having a set pool for the obstacle... but even that's pretty stupid

    really i'd only use that mechanic in a wargame, its unsuited to an RPG
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:49 No.15008805
    linear comparison i'm thinking, i don't like the keep and roll because i just don't see what it adds other than making it different but the linear comparison HAS to go
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)01:50 No.15008809
    >>is that just being thrown out?

    Not to my knowledge

    >>Because under what you presented you're going to need quite a bit more skills to cover climbing, general athletics, and so on.
    If I have it in my head correctly, for things that don't have skills, you roll virtue+attribute, keep virtue, but I'd have to ask Scribe to be sure.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:51 No.15008826
    that arrangement makes little sense espeically since you are giving the virtues double duty
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)01:51 No.15008828
    Yeah, you have 6 dice to roll, you keep the three highest capped by attribute, and then you total them. You try and meet skill checks or beat an opposed roll with the total, quick and simple.

    And if the roll and keep thing you described is what L5R uses I am staying away from L5R now.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:52 No.15008832
    Unopposed rolls go like this:
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)01:52 No.15008837
    I'm not seeing a problem with something pulling double duty. I'm just not seeing where the complaint comes from.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:57 No.15008867
    because you then start heavily skewing the worth of things.

    it's like dex in Scion, you shouldnt even waste your time with any other stat since having high dex is ALWAYS better

    fiqure olverlay

    you should try to keep everything with near distinctions so that the value between them all is clearly split

    and even then it makes the skills totally an artificial distinction; if you have a sword skill then why don't you have a speechcraft skill or climbing or whatever.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)01:59 No.15008885
    Unopposed rolls we're still trying to flesh out. Most likely it would be similar to >>15008718, but instead of comparing against someone else's rolls it's just a matter of any die over a certain number (which should be the same for every check; probably 4 or 5) being a success. If your dice kept value would be greater than your dice rolled, you shift dice from kept to rolled until that's no longer the case. The number of successes necessary reflects the difficulty of the task. Trivial tasks (ie, something that should be easily accomplished by most anyone) wouldn't require a roll.

    So let's say character A from before wants to leap across a chasm. It's non-trivial, but not particularly difficult either; you need to roll, but you only need 1 success to make the jump. Jumping isn't skill-based, it's simply governed by Physical and Courage. A's Courage is higher than his Physical, so for this test he moves one die kept to the dice rolled. Thus, he rolls 3d6 (2 Physical + 1 moved from Courage), getting 5, 3, and 2. A keeps the two highest (2 points left from Courage after moving one to the dice rolled): 5 and 3. Let's assume we decide the number that makes a success is 4. A has one success, so he makes it across safely.

    If the chasm was a bit wider, the jump might require two successes. If this was the case, then A's rolls above would not have been sufficient to make the jump, and he falls.
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)02:01 No.15008906
    Yes, but virtually everything in the game pulls a double duty. Skills both affect the rolling and offer new abilities, and Virtues keep on all checks and are part of rolls for non-skill checks. That's why there are Attributes, to help differentiate specific applications.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)02:02 No.15008911
    >Both have Courage as their chosen fighting style
    This just sounds silly. Obviously everyone is going to use their highest virtue as their "fighting style". Why even have the other two then? Just make melee=power, magic=wisdom, and ranged=courage, or something to that extent (i realize ranged=courage doesn't really make sense). and as I suggested before as you raise you rank in a skill and gain new abilities (as mentioned in OP) you get to choose between a power, wisdom, or courage based ability.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)02:02 No.15008913
    uhh... I actually mentioned Unopposed rolls here. >>15007764
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)02:04 No.15008939
    >Just make melee=power, magic=wisdom, and ranged=courage
    Not this shit again. I'm going to give you the short version. Ganon, the series' go-to guy for "Power" is one of the best magic-users in the setting. The end. Read >>15007372
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)02:05 No.15008951
    Hey Scribe. Have you thought about setting up a channel on Suptg's IRC?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)02:07 No.15008961
    seriously just switch to using skills as the keep stat so you can actually have those mixes be important rather than just shit on the side
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)02:07 No.15008964
    Fair enough.
    But what about the last part?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)02:08 No.15008974
    and that also helps when it comes to progression of stats since you won't have to have values being all over the place (assuming you're using XP cost to raise stuff)
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)02:10 No.15008995
    The talk of fighting styles came up because of the arguments earlier in this thread that restricting things to certain virtues results in pigeonholing. The fighting styles would let you use different virtues for combat, but with slight differences depending on the virtue chosen. One suggestion of how it might work is here: >>15008471
    >At its simplest, you could have someone using a Power style get a bonus die on the attack, but lose a die on defense, and vice-versa for a Wisdom fighter. Courage would get the baseline number of both attack and defense dice.

    I chose Courage for the example because, as the "balanced" style it represents the simplest way of doing it.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)02:12 No.15009012
    Oh. That I actually like. Sorry I didn't read the thread more carefully.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)02:12 No.15009014
    Your newfangled IRC confuses me. I'm relatively new to /tg/; starting this project one one of my first posts.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)02:15 No.15009047
    The problem with using skills as the keep die is that it becomes physically impossible to succeed with a task if you dont have at least one skill point in the skill. Admittedly, that COULD work, but I'm personally not keen on needing to take the |heavy| skill just to pound a switch down with the megaton hammer.

    feel free to disagree with me, I never said I know what I'm talking about.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)02:16 No.15009060
    >and that also helps when it comes to progression of stats since you won't have to have values being all over the place (assuming you're using XP cost to raise stuff)

    The rationale behind using Virtues for the keep value was actually because we didn't want the Virtue values changing very readily. It makes sense that you can improve a skill relatively quickly with training, but changing your Virtues is more a fundamental change in the nature of the character, so it should be a bit more difficult to accomplish.
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)02:18 No.15009092
    What if we started from a baseline of always keeping at least one die?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)02:19 No.15009095
    Just go here, and type in /join #LoZ

    Or whatever you want the channel to be called.


    Would be a much easier, and quicker way to chat. And would keep us from having to make 2 million threads and archive them all, because this probably won't be done in just 2 or 3 threads.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)02:21 No.15009119
    then you create a floor for the skills or divide them between skills that start at 1 and those that start at 0 (which required speical training or something)

    or since the whole linear-comparison thing sucks, have a skill at 0 half the result or something.

    plus since this isn't a video game there are plenty of OTHER solutions available
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)02:22 No.15009129
    Hmm... only problem is that I'm not really on 4chan as much as I'd need to be to monitor a chat; archiving is what helps me keep up with what I miss while I'm at school/work/LGS and so on.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)02:22 No.15009132
    well then you shouldn't have things like climbing, socializing, and such relying so heavily on them

    put them in skills if you are going to make the virtures slow to change
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)02:25 No.15009168
    for climbing and socializing, Virtue remains merely a keep value. Climbing is Physical, and Socializing is... well... Social.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)02:26 No.15009172
    Still, never a bad option to have. I agree that there should be an IRC to discuss stuff more quickly.
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)02:26 No.15009174
    Think of it like the difference between skill checks and ability checks in D&D.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)02:28 No.15009203
    and D&D is MONSTROUSLY RETARDED zombie stiched together by nothing more than nostalgia and inertia
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)02:30 No.15009231
    >put [climbing, socializing, etc] in skills if you are going to make the virtures slow to change

    That is an option we're open to. Notice the liberal use of the word "probably" at the end of >>15007245. That was intended to denote that although the current consensus is that skills for these things won't be necessary, this is not something that's set in stone and it can be changed if evidence to the contrary is brought to light.
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)02:32 No.15009249
    All I needed to hear. I'm quite prepared to disregard your opinions now.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)02:35 No.15009276
    This argument can actually work both for and against the current system; after all, D&D *does* have skills for things like diplomacy and climbing and such.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)02:37 No.15009297
    and look how poorly they are handled

    in a few rolls you can have an army of slavishly loyal followers

    Anyway I didn't mean to create a tangent, this isn't about D&Ds flaws.

    All I meant to do was draw a attention to an artificial distinction that serves no real reason.
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)02:38 No.15009313
    True, but our skill system seems to be going in a fairly different direction from that of D&D.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)02:38 No.15009322
    Well. I'm far too tired to actually provide constructive input anymore, So I'm going to nod off. Here's hoping we make this thread as productive as the last!

    (as a quick question - any thoughts on statting enemies? I'm gathering both zelda-fans and RPG-fans to help me beta-test this sucker when we have enough fleshed out.)
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)02:40 No.15009343
    Count me tentatively in to beta. Enemies should probably come last.
    >> Halfwing 05/22/11(Sun)02:42 No.15009367
    I'm down for a beta if you need players.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)02:46 No.15009410
    >All I meant to do was draw a attention to an artificial distinction that serves no real reason.

    I'll admit that the distinction is indeed artificial, but there is a purpose. The initial proposed skill system revolved around the items used in the games, and we wanted to try to stick to that as much as possible. We also felt that limiting the skill list would help streamline the game.

    However, at this point we already have stealth and (since we've settled on turn-based combat) dodge as non-item skills, it wouldn't hurt too much to add some more if it would help things go a bit more smoothly.

    The one thing I personally would be a bit leery about is that adding these as skills could lead to issues like you see in D&D where certain skills get completely ignored because they're too circumstantial to be worth sinking points into. Why put ranks in Climb if you may never have to scale a mountain?

    Admittedly, there are ways this can be remedied. You could give players enough points to allow for training a variety of skills (though this would also require caps on how much you can train any given skill at once, to avoid having some munchkin who ignores everything else and sinks it all into dodge and blades or whatever). Rolling the "orphaned skills" into more general consolidated skills would also help.

    TL;DR -- it'll take a little effort to make it work right...but then again, I guess that's what this thread's here for, huh?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)02:46 No.15009419
    and thats good

    but you need to make sure that everything important is covered

    you shouldn't leave gaps 'just because'
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)02:49 No.15009461
    well thats why you mash skills together that are outside of the scope of the game

    the ones that are more imporant are more granular, the ones that are less important cover more
    >> TKDB 05/22/11(Sun)02:51 No.15009482
    >(I'm the guy who started this thread, been contributing actively throughout. Just now decided to adopt a name.)

    Classes are still in session for me right now, but depending on how long it takes to get the system to a beta-worthy stage I might be able to participate.
    >> TKDB 05/22/11(Sun)03:02 No.15009573
    True enough.

    Anyway, I'm going to head off to bed here, but those of you who will be up can go ahead and work on fleshing out the skill list or whatever.
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)03:06 No.15009601
    We could create a divide between combat and non-combat skills. I think the skill list should be small if possible, if possible even shorter than 4e's.
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)03:07 No.15009606
    Well see it seems to me that's what we're doing by making all the existing skills item-related.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)03:09 No.15009624
    so then item and non item skills
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)03:13 No.15009657
    Sure we could, but why go to that trouble when we've got the Attribute-virtue thing and it seems to be working for most of us well enough?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)03:15 No.15009678
    because that's lazy design and if you're gonna do that you're better off just going to the d20 zelda thing and saving your time
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)03:17 No.15009694
    You say lazy, I say efficient and innovative.
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)03:30 No.15009820
    Do keep in mind we're trying for rules light, or at least I think we are.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)03:32 No.15009838
    with linear comparison? Either no one got the memo or this project is shooting itself in the foot
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)03:35 No.15009857
    If you can get past counting to 6, then it's not too hard to comprehend. The hardest part will be figuring out the ratios of how many to throw vs how many to keep FOR EACH AND EVERY THING. Easy to shorthand for, but there's lots to stat up.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)03:41 No.15009909
    did you not see >>15008718

    if you want rules light you should want to minimize the amount rolling and the amount of steps taken in doing so
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)03:49 No.15009965
    there's difference between the heavy/lightness of rules and the completeness of their coverage

    actually, creating a seperate mechanic to handle the exception area that needs another rule to cover it actually INCREASES the number of rules you have to have.
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)03:55 No.15010006
    The use of items is fundamental to the Zelda setting. Do you deny this?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)04:00 No.15010031
    Why would I deny that?
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)04:18 No.15010138
    Because the skill system as is is meant to reflect that.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)04:22 No.15010166
    And that necessitates that it shouldn't cover anything else?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)04:28 No.15010202
    gonna need a Riding skill too
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)04:31 No.15010211


    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)04:32 No.15010218
    Why not just use a butchered version of attack-combat-value and defense-combat-value? BESM and HERO system do this. Now, rolling under like that wouldn't quite work because of the range of attributes and whatnot, but it's a start.

    Player One has 3 physical, 3 courage, and 2 blade. This adds up to 8. They then add onto this 2d6.

    Player Two has 2 physical, 3 courage, and 4 dodge. This adds up to 9, and then they also add 2d6. If P1's score is equal or greater then P2, the attack lands. Alternatively it could be a single dice, for less of a curve, and to make attributes/virtues more important. And weapon bonuses would be pretty straight-forward to add, simply increasing the score based on the quality.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)04:34 No.15010225
    because apparently everyones set on this stupid roll&keep thing because it makes this a special snowflake
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)04:34 No.15010229

    This is very helpful, thanks! Allow me to communicate a couple of misgivings I have:

    One issue I think that might crop up is that a lot of Zelda is not based around dueling or making opposed checks.

    Many Zelda dungeons require you to interact with the environment - use your hookshot to reach a location, using your boomerang to flip a switch, pushing a block, and so on and so forth. That means most of the time checks will be made unopposed.

    Secondly, many environmental actions do not exactly lend themselves incremental results either - the switch is flipped when you nail it with an arrow - it's either on or off - it doesn't matter whether or not you hit the switch with three successes or one success - the switch is flipped.

    Same goes for items like the Cane of Somaria - most puzzles in the games do not require a bigger or better block, just a block. It makes the whole Roll & Keep system somewhat superfluous.

    This is of course, only a dungeon crawling issue, but it again depends on the objective you're going for - is it simply roleplaying in a Zelda setting? Then my criticisms don't matter. On the other hand, if you're trying to capture the feel of the Zelda games, then this might be problematic.

    Also, I could see some sort of guidance in terms of translating abstract successes into actual results as being very helpful. This sort of thing will be very familiar to players of dicepool systems like Shadowrun or World of Darkness, but for players and DMs from D&D, where rolls represent binary pass/fail conditions, conceptualizing what 3 successes mean might be difficult.

    In fact, I'm sure this is where 99% of the confusion lies; in most D&D systems you simply do not distinguish between degrees of success.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)04:36 No.15010236
    So far they seem more adamant on the attribute/virtue thing, but I honestly haven't read most of the thread. We'll see.

    Anyways. It's generally a good rule to stop repeating yourself when people aren't listening, and hope they do the same. Nothing will get done otherwise and it annoys other people.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)04:37 No.15010240

    To tl;dr this entire chunk of text:

    Zelda gameplay is based around binary outcomes - you hit/miss, switch on/off. Roll & Keep results in a granular outcome - this smacks of a mismatch.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)04:38 No.15010247
    in WoD you typically only a need a single success unless there's a threshold you need to meet, usually from an opposed roll or circumstances call for making certain things more difficult (like rolling to notice stuff, it might only take 1 success to notice there's a torch off in the gloom, but 3 to notice that it's linked to a trap or something)
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)04:42 No.15010277
    I see what you are saying. Of course, you could generalize the difficulty of challenges. Let's say that a simple task might be 15 or under, a medium one 20, and a challenging one 25. That's simple enough to remember, and would be a good target point for unopposed rolls related to skills. Naturally you would have to fine tune it, but it could feasibly work.

    D&D does not distinguish levels of success, I agree, other then crits. And that's really not much of a variety. Though, for rule-light systems, it may be best to let the GM look at the rolls and determine how great the result should be.

    And on the combat thing, definitely. Zelda fights were quite unique and counter-oriented. I'm just not certain how that would be applied to an RPG. I'll go read through the rest of this thread, see what I have missed.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)04:43 No.15010286
    I have this stupid notion that maybe if repeat myself enough times some or explain it in more simple terms then maybe it'll get though. I just don't think someone who repeatedly demonstrates an inability to analyze things properly should be left to design a system.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)04:46 No.15010305
    Do not try to force a video game mechanic onto a tabletop RPG. Many have gone done that road only to fail.

    If i weren't tired as fuck I could help create an approximation that allows for a nod to source while keeping things functional on an RPG level without eliminating options by the dozen.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)04:47 No.15010309
    >15, 20, 25
    jesus I hope you're not expecting these kinds of number to appear in this system
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)04:48 No.15010314
    Sometimes that doesn't work. Often enough I've taken inspiration at projects, and thought 'Hey, that is unintuitive', then mashed together a system. Perhaps if you came up with a working example and presented it others might agree moreso. Maybe.

    That or folk are dead-set on keeping something how it is, and if so it isn't worth the effort to convince them, right or not.

    Just playing the role of neutral dude.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)04:49 No.15010321
    What? Those look as pretty as any other number that one might try to roll over with dice. Did you read to the-

    >Naturally you would have to fine tune it, but it could feasibly work.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)05:02 No.15010392

    Agree most completely - the long critique I posted is not to suggest the solution is to pull more mechanics straight from the game.

    Overall I feel the bare bones of the Courage-Wisdom-Power triforce is really excellent and very true to the source material; and the roll and keep system certainly makes them very integral to the system - I don't think anyone is disputing this, or proposing a D&D style system anymore.

    I think the dicepool suggestion instead aims to simply streamline the whole process - rather than Triforce, Attributes, and Skills, simply have Triforce and Skills, simply have the Triforce statistics take the role of attributes directly.

    At least, that seems to be the argument.

    Still, I think one issue with this dicepool proposal is that it might result in overall lower character diversity; there aren't quite so many ways to make a character.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)08:26 No.15011575
    Yeah, that's pretty much exactly why we put in the attributes. A darknut is not a wizzrobe is not a salesman.

    As for how linear comparison complicates the game... wat
    It's just a matter of comparing whose individual dice rolled highest. Adding them together takes much longer.

    Having access to a partial victory mechanic does strike me as fitting, too. Even if LoZ combat often has a flow of attack/defense/attack/defense, there are often cases of ending up getting hit back, not moving away in time, etc.
    Plus partial victory feels dramatically appropriate. It leaves open both for the everyday things like just barely not making it across a gap and grabbing the ledge, to the cutscene-esque instances of two combatants striking each other simultaneously.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)08:59 No.15011786
    For unopposed rolls with the current system: have something like "3,3,3,3,3 (2)" where there's the static range of values to compare against and the number of successes needed in brackets.

    For people thinking the current system is slow:
    Not doing maths is quicker than doing maths.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)09:14 No.15011842
    i don't see a problem with the current system. it looks more complicated written out than it really is.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)09:24 No.15011892
         File1306070645.jpg-(138 KB, 600x849, Zelda-Comic-Style-2.jpg)
    138 KB
    This may still just be in the early stage of developing, but this ZRPG already looks promising.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)09:35 No.15011950
         File1306071323.png-(47 KB, 184x184, 1301653306505.png)
    47 KB
    So where would Majora's Mask stuff fall?

    Also, I still think we should have two groups of items/classes/settings, with some overlap. It's the best way to handle the split timeline issue.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)09:37 No.15011958
    fortunately this is a classless system
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)10:03 No.15012091
    I dunno if this thread is done or not, but as for the argument about "What? Scrubs as Tough as gorons? BULLSHIT"

    Add a mass attribute. It could be used for moving the character and dealing/subtracting damage as wealth as stealth and movement, so you don't have to give the race a specific rule for more stealth or what have you.

    Normal Human/Hylian is a mass of 3, Kokiri and scrubs are 2, fairies I guess would be 1, Gorons could be 4 or 5. 4 seems like a good place for Ganon. Anyway, just my two cents.I like what you guys are doing.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)10:06 No.15012104
    this will probably get rejected outright, but I like it so here goes:
    attributes = dice pool
    virtues = how many rolls you keep
    skills = bonuses to all rolls
    everything caps at 5. this would only work with d10's because with d6's it would quickly become nearly impossible to fail any average difficulty unopposed test.
    So say your shooting at a target of medium difficulty (7+ is a success) with a power 3, physical 3, bows 3. you roll 3d10, and because your relevant virtue is 3 you keep all 3 rolls. You roll a 4, 7, and a 1. The 4 would have been a miss, but because of your skill (3) with a bow it gets bumped up to a 7, which is a success. The 7 was a success anyway, but still gets bumped up to a 10, which would give you a nice edge in an opposed test when comparing your opponents roll. The 1 gets bumped up to a 4, which is still short of the mark, leaving you with 2 successes.
    This way attributes represent raw ability while skills represent just that, and even if you max out a skill you still have a marginal chance of failure on a test of medium difficulty and more difficult tasks can still be challenging.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)10:12 No.15012126
    I think this is a good idea
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)10:12 No.15012128
    Mechanical elaboration on my idea.

    What if you use mass comparisons for opposed checks to say, knockback? A Goron charges a Scrub, there's a difference of 3 in their masses, so the Goron keeps three more dice. If this ends up being more than he rolled, he simply keeps all of them. I think that would represent well that he's able to bring his full pushing/bowling capabilities to bear. Then the difference in masses can also be used to determine extra damage dealt or damage subtracted from the amount rolled, however that is going to work. Also, I advocate Hp instead of hearts. We can view it in terms of hearts, but when talking about damage, quarter and half hearts is a lot more cumbersome than 1 and 2 Hp. The Mass attribute could also govern how much gear a character could reasonably handle, the mass value of an item determining more of how cumbersome it is than it's actual weight. And, if it's not too pretentious, if mass WERE used, it'd give gorons a big advantage (especially in sumo wrestling(unless the opponent is wearing iron boots (+2 mass!))), you could also have a mind attribute for terms of magical power. A fairy could have 5 in that case and a goron could have 1. Magic scrubs is a little funny though. Well... they do blow magic bubble bullets.... Anyway. My ideas.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)10:14 No.15012144
    No, we keep the hearts. Loving the direction you're going, but it seems a little unbalanced right now giving a HUGE bonus to Goron rolling. Still, the mass stat thing is good.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)10:18 No.15012160
    I'd be more in favor of treating the hearts as wounds. Everyone gets three wounds before being incapacitated and gets a -1 penalty per wound to all rolls. Maybe mass could correlate to how many wounds you get or how many you can take before you start getting penalties.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)10:20 No.15012165
    Aw, c'mon. I just mean in term of finding how much damage was done. Conver to Hp, find out what was done, convert back to hearts. Saying, okay, it's a 1/2 heart weapon, I got 2 successes, so a 1 heart, and you're wearing 1/4 armor so you take 3/4 damage is a lot harder to say then, okay, my weapon does 2 damage, got 2 successes, so 4 damage, and you have 1 Armor, so 3 damage. And... that's 3/4 of a heart. And I DO think a Goron, if desired to be a true-blue mountain Goron, should be able to beat any lesser race in a pushing match, almost hands down. Unless that opponent is using magic or mechanical means to level the ground. As for their advantage in damaging things, yeah, it needs to be nerfed in some way. They have great torque, but being able to punch through anybodies chest is more of a Ganon thing.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)10:23 No.15012180
    >We can view it in terms of hearts, but when talking about damage, quarter and half hearts is a lot more cumbersome than 1 and 2 Hp.

    While this is definitely true, anyone who's familiar with the Zelda games (and who else is likely to play a homebrewed LoZ RPG?) will have no difficulty following. It's a little element that helps bring it closer to the flavor of the video games.

    Of course, if it helps to think of it in terms of wounds or HP you're welcome to do so, but officially it should stay hearts.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)10:24 No.15012185
    It's actually not that hard at all. You can do 4 damage, after you strike you have done 4 damage, that's a whole heart. 4 is a whole heart of damage. Iron Knuckles are among the few things that do multiple hearts worth of damage. A lizard dude with a knife does about 2 damage. Deku scrubs natural nut shooting ability does one damage or sometimes none. If you can't see how this relates directly to heart fractions, like 6 damage being one and a half hearts, then you just need better math skills.

    Come on, there is a difference between tedious math like the original roll and keep system suggested earlier, and actually difficult or simple math. We shouldn't balk at easy stuff like basic arithmetic involving 1 or two digits.
    >> Massfag 05/22/11(Sun)10:25 No.15012188
    *shrug* fair enough. It is pretty trivial and easy to change to suit yourself.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)10:25 No.15012189
    Disregard that, it seems I was ninja'd >>15012165

    Or, well...don't "disregard" per se, I think it's still an important point, but it seems we're actually on the same page to begin with.
    >> Mooglepies 05/22/11(Sun)10:30 No.15012225
    While it might make for sucky balance on the face of things, I'd say that Gorons SHOULD get massive bonuses for rolling. I can't recall seeing a Goron with a weapon in the games (feel free to correct me if I'm incorrect), so using their body in any way they can kind of makes sense.

    One way you could balance it out by using the natural bonuses that different races (Deku Scrubs can dig underground at will, for example) or just plain jump to the side. The thing about the Goron roll is that they find it very difficult to stop themselves once they start, which either screws them over because they won't be able to do anything else or else it just leaves them open to some kind of other attack if they miss.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)10:34 No.15012241
    LoZ RPG? Awesome, I've always been interested in one of tho-

    >Dice pools
    >> Massfag 05/22/11(Sun)10:36 No.15012253
    Hm, hm. How about this: A Goron cannot wear any armor (any damage reduction he gets is from his natural size and fortitude) and without some kind of special exception (I dunno how you guys want to deal with learning how to use items) can only wield heavy weapons (thinking of the Giant's knife, here) and they get a -1 to their keep pool for clumsiness, or bombs, which have some sort of scatter for being thrown (?). They seem like a kill-ya-or-miss-ya kinda race. And that roll should have a cool-down time. Even a forceful shove, should. Anytime in the game anyone pushes anything, they have to pause for breath.
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)10:38 No.15012270
    Now, see, if Mr. Doesn't-know-what-the-fuck-a-shift-key-does had made some effort to explain like that we might have gotten somewhere. Still, I'm concerned about that potentially necessitating a large amount of the work we already have in place.
    >> TKDB 05/22/11(Sun)10:39 No.15012273
    >Come on, there is a difference between tedious math like the original roll and keep system suggested earlier,

    Incidentally, I should point out that the roll & keep system contains NO actual math apart from comparing "is X > Y", and in the case of attacks the multiplication of damage increment by number of successes. The tediousness lies in the process of linear comparison, and even there I have to agree with >>15011842:
    >it looks more complicated written out than it really is.

    Let's compare the roll & keep, linear comparison system to a success-based dice pool like what's used in Shadowrun. In unopposed checks, the only difference between the dice pool and roll & keep is that with roll & keep, you discard all but your N highest dice. This is hardly a difficult concept to understand, and establishes an important role for the Virtues.
    In the case of opposed checks, the only difference besides dropping/keeping dice is the linear comparison, which is simply a way of determining a dynamic threshold for success based on your opponent's results.

    Now, I could potentially see dropping the linear comparison in favor of a success-count comparison as used in Shadowrun 4e if it proves too overwhelming, but as for the roll & keep mechanic itself, the difference in complexity between that and a regular dice pool is negligible.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)10:40 No.15012277
    I can't agree with this, it's too remote from that Zelda feeling.

    Applying it with d6s works fine, you just have lower ratings in your skills than on a d10 system. I think it'd still get messy, though.

    Mass: Good idea. Should be a racially determined attribute. Don't want it to have too strong effects, in order to avoid shoehorning. Some possibility of altering it (at chargen, probably), by say +1/-1, accounting for different builds, fatness, etc. Have it affect movement speed? I think there seems to be some correlation between speed and size, generally speaking, even though you'd figure a Hylian should run faster than a Deku, catching up with one is really fucking hard.
    Some racial abilities would play in here, Zora have their swimming, Gorons can roll. Actually, an idea: If base movement is decreased by mass, Gorons rolling could add their mass to speed instead. Maybe after one turn of moving at normal speed or so, if we want the buildup time. This means an unusually slightly built Goron would move faster than others normally, but not get as much speed in his roll, while a fat Goron walks slower but rolls way harder.

    Armor: Should probably apply to each hit, not the total damage.
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)10:41 No.15012290
    I dunno, this seems to do Gorons a lot of favors. And what about lightweight races like Deku or (eventually) Rito? What do they get to compensate?
    >> TKDB 05/22/11(Sun)10:42 No.15012304
    Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Honestly, I personally am usually on the same page with you, I don't really like dice pools. But for some reason, it strikes me as a good fit for this game.

    You specifically might be interested in the d20 Zelda game linked to in >>15007520; those of us working on this system just felt that it didn't really capture the feel of the source material.
    >> Massfag 05/22/11(Sun)10:45 No.15012317
    Deku can burrow, shoot bubbles, hide easily, skitter really fast, and are probably really accurate with a sling shot.

    Rito can fly, are musically and navigationally adept, and probably much better socially.

    Both of them would be a lot more capable magic wise, too. I suggested a Mind stat, offhand, which would be something that shows how good the race is at magic.
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)10:45 No.15012326
    To clarify, they're more maneuverable, but it doesn't seem like they get much defensively speaking, especially since we're not assuming a tactical, minis-based thing.
    >> TKDB 05/22/11(Sun)10:46 No.15012328
    I like the idea of mass affecting movement speed. That seems appropriate given what we see in the games.

    >Armor: Should probably apply to each hit, not the total damage.
    I may be misinterpreting what you mean, but I think that's how we're already handling it. Armor reduces the damage taken for each success your opponent gets on the attack, effectively reducing the damage increment of their weapon.
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)10:47 No.15012336
    Well it sounds to me like it's nothing that Physical and Mental couldn't already manage. A high-physical character is going to be pretty buff no matter what. Forgive my lack of clarity, it's early here.
    >> TKDB 05/22/11(Sun)10:47 No.15012344
    >I suggested a Mind stat, offhand, which would be something that shows how good the race is at magic.

    We have a Mental attribute, I think that's what you're going for. It's main use is for magic.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)10:48 No.15012360
    I don't like the huge emphasis on race this brings with it. Goron characters shouldn't HAVE to be big, nude brawlers. They should definitely be good at it, the best just looking at basic levels of it, but locking them in like that, no.
    However, making some things of less interest to them than they would be for others is definitely fine.

    And yeah, for the rolling, I think it should hurt like hell if used in combat, but you need some distance to build up to it, so you declare it one round, do nothing else, then the attack is actually executed the next. Sound good?
    >> TKDB 05/22/11(Sun)10:51 No.15012377
    >And yeah, for the rolling, I think it should hurt like hell if used in combat, but you need some distance to build up to it, so you declare it one round, do nothing else, then the attack is actually executed the next. Sound good?

    This actually makes perfect sense to me, especially since in-game the roll attack does usually involve a "windup".
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)10:52 No.15012385
    I agree. Seems eminently sensible.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)10:53 No.15012403
    That's what I meant, yes. It seemed to not be phrased like that before, though. Good, good, either way.
    >> Massfag 05/22/11(Sun)10:53 No.15012405
    Well, yes, but the argument earlier was that by using virtues, a Scrub can be as brawl-worthy as a goron. Virtues and abilities seem individual for the character. There needs to be some sort of racial statistic that gives the base ability of the race, which is then built upon by virtues. Perhaps you could pump a Scrub with power, and it's as good as a courage focused Goron in terms of physical might, but a power focused Goron (if the player wants to be REALLY creative with their character) should trump all other races in terms of staying power. We are just giving the player points to put in virtues upon creation, right?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)11:04 No.15012501
    I agree with this idea.
    >> TKDB 05/22/11(Sun)11:08 No.15012526
    >We are just giving the player points to put in virtues upon creation, right?

    That was the plan, yes. Probably on a scaling system, something like:

    >1 --> 2: costs 1 point
    >2 --> 3: costs 2 points (total cost: 3 points)
    >3 --> 4: 3 points (total cost: 6 points)

    Or something to that effect, anyway. I'm not sure exactly what scale would be best for keeping things balanced.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)11:08 No.15012528
    Yeah, I dunno if we'll end up at scaling costs or simple distribution, though.

    A really Powerful Scrub should beat the shit out of the common Goron, though.
    >> TKDB 05/22/11(Sun)11:35 No.15012710
    >A really Powerful Scrub should beat the shit out of the common Goron, though.

    I wanna see a drawfag on this. Just sayin'...

    A thought on the Mass mechanic -- would it perhaps be better to use a more general Size mechanic instead? It would include everything we've talked about for Mass -- movement speed, knockback effects, and stealth -- as well as affecting your ability to wear armor (like how young Link in OoT can't wear the special tunics obtained as adult Link). Thus, while Gorons wouldn't be completely barred from wearing armor, it would make it more difficult for them to find armor that fits.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)11:46 No.15012788
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    Everything in this post +1

    In my own opinion, I'm in favor of simple distribution for virtues. Though, perhaps Attributes could scale.

    >A really Powerful Scrub should beat the shit out of the common Goron, though.
    Picturing this made me laugh. Hard.

    I know you were just making an analogy, and I think we've decided on no races receiving an VIRTUE bonuses, but I pictured Gorons being Courage-based, as opposed to power, since Courage is our current virtue for resilience and endurance. Just my opinion, though.

    Unfortunately, regarding no armor for Gorons, the games have contained at least one armor-wearing Goron. Twilight Princess' miniboss in the Goron Mines. There wasnt a LOT of armor, admittedly, but still.
    >> Massfag 05/22/11(Sun)11:51 No.15012818
    X| Sounds like you're just changing the name and adding something extra. Whatever sounds better, though.

    Anyway, since we're concerned about pigeon-holing races, how about this:

    Each race has three archetypes. Big, Smart, and Brave. Just kidding, Power, Wisdom and Courage. Each gives different advantages and allows the race to be played in a different way, though each race would have a favored archetype.

    So, a Power archetype'd Goron would be like Darunia. Big (Mass (or size) 5)), muscular, solid and combat focused. Rigid and socially/magically inept, but god damn, can he wrestle down a dodongo and shove a bomb down it's throat. Wisdom would be like a Goron elder, you know, they're all small and shrivelled. Would have a mass (or size) equal to that of a Hylian, though just a little tougher, and would be maybe shamanic? Good with fire based magic? Courage would be one of those dopey looking ones you see everywhere. Big, friendly, well rounded guys, with masses (or sizes) of like 4. You can do that for all the races. That gives you flexibility within a race.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)11:52 No.15012828
    Size sounds good to me. Oh, and the heaviest armors could increase Size. Probably still reducing Goron speed even while rolling (ie only their inherent Size would have its effect changed).
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)12:24 No.15013065
    Items allowing you to change your effective size sounds like a good idea. It gives us a mechanic for the Iron Boots to use.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)12:30 No.15013121
    I think certain items should have 'tags' to say "I have this effect on these things".

    So Fire Arrows, Lanterns, Torches (lit), etc. all have the "Fire" tag that lights Torches, turns Keese into Fire Keese, make Bombs explode, etc.
    Bombs, Ball and Chains, Hammers, etc. all have the "Smash" tag that destroys certain walls, activates certain switches, etc.

    This could also work for part of the monster rules - Armos only taking damage from weapons with the "Smash" tag and so on.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)12:32 No.15013139
    This could work. Certainly in-theme with the games. Would we have an "Explosive" tag? Since bombs wreck Darknuts, for example, but the Ball&Chain do diddly shit.
    >> TKDB 05/22/11(Sun)12:32 No.15013141
    That actually sounds like a pretty good idea.
    >> TKDB 05/22/11(Sun)12:35 No.15013168
    Explosive makes sense. Probably could use an Ice descriptor as well. Possibly Cut and Pierce? I don't recall if there was anything in the games that cared about that or not...
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)12:38 No.15013195
    Pierce, not really, but as of WW and TP lots of things, like ropes, respond to being cut.
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)12:38 No.15013196
    You. You're awesome. Keep it up.
    Arrows and arguably hookshots pierce. Link can sometimes stab rather than slash. Moblins often have spears.
    >> Library Lass 05/22/11(Sun)12:41 No.15013211
    Besides, Piercing could be awesome. Who hasn't wanted to go all Scorpion and be like "GET OVER HERE!" with the hookshot?
    >> TKDB 05/22/11(Sun)12:49 No.15013282
    Speaking of the hookshot, should there be some kind of Grip or Grapple descriptor, for things like those masked enemies, or should that just be left to a case-by-case basis?
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)12:51 No.15013294
    Good thought. Grapple would also work for things like Morpha, or lightweight enemies.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)12:54 No.15013312

    If the enemy is heavy enough, you'd get pulled to them (which I think happens in the games). Then again, what are Iron Boots for?

    Actually, mentioning Iron Boots, they'd probably give you the same Mass/Size/whatever as Gorons, since you sink in water when wearing them.

    Also, Goron adventurers would be desparate for "Helium Boots" at the merest hint of a Water Temple.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)12:55 No.15013321
    Good ideas, good ideas! Just don't go overboard, making things so specific you HAVE to always have a particular thing on hand to accomplish anything. Shorthands for things that can be set on fire/cut/etc., though, excellent! But really, smashing? Is that to say then, that most things couldn't be smashed eventually? Of course, some things would be easier to smash or blow up than others, but still...
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)13:17 No.15013496
    How about, if an object or creature has more mass than you, you're pulled to it, if it has less, it's pulled to you. If it has equal mass, then either whoever fired the hookshot gets to choose (either they can dig their feet in or jump forward), or it becomes a contest of physical/power.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)13:21 No.15013515
    >it becomes a contest of physical/power.

    Dis idea I like.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)13:21 No.15013518
    I'm imagining hookshot'ing into a Goron's belly then trying to pull him down until he grabs the chain and yanks me flat on my face.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)13:48 No.15013734
    I may have to drawfag this later.

    Looks like noon-ish on a Sunday is a slow time for /tg/. I'm going to play some Twilight Princess and come back.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)14:29 No.15014046
    So how are you going to handle items that increase your skills and stats? Just giving a bonus? Like the Bunny Hood in Majora's Mask, that increased your movement speed and your jumping distance.

    Also, for the potential character sheet? To help out with Hearts? Do the Hearts display like health levels on a nWoD sheet. Have the hearts displayed, divided into fours; display say, 10 of them. Underneath each, have a box to fill in to show that you have those hearts. So you can get Heart Containers and stuff as magical items that make you more hearty. Or just increasing your Physical or whatever.

    When you take damage, however, do the reverse of NWoD. Instead of going left ot right, go right to left. Put a check inside the damage, going backwards from right to left.

    Example: Rusl the Hylian has 3 Hearts, so he has 12 sections. Rusl is stuck WAY away from Ordona and is locked out of Hyrule Castle-Town, and is trying to get to Kakariko before Stalchildren overwhelm him. He is hit by the arm of a Stalchild, taking 2 damage after whatever calculations. Rusl's player marks off 2 sections of his furthest-right heart; before he gets to Kakariko Village and inside it's protected borders, he takes five more, leaving him with 1 untouched heart, 1 heart with 1 tic, and 1 heart with 4 tics. To me, that's a good 'visual' way to represent the Hearts without just saying 'A heart is 4 HP' and gives a neat little feel to the game.

    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)14:44 No.15014149
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    Same guy. Also, on defenses. In most of the games, it seemed that defenses were pretty absolute, except in some specific cases (fire attacks when equipped with a Wooden/Kokiri Shield, fire of any sort as a Dekunut), why not just allow defense as a 'reaction' to being attacked. Not including armor (which, like in the original LoZ, just reduces damage), for things like Shields, Zora Fins, Dekunut Bark, or Goron Roll-Up, primarily. Like just swinging out the shield or whatever. Shields offset the damage done by the Shield's rating and your Shield skill, so a Wooden/Deku Shield is 1, and Shield of 3 offsets 2 damage. If you choose to react to an attack with Defense, then you benefit from this but that's your action; and you can't react with Defense if you've already taken an attack action that turn of combat, sort of like Dodge in NWoD.

    Doing it this way, you can't really turtle in combat effectively, as you'll be doing nothing but defending and probably fleeing.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)14:46 No.15014166
    Same guy. God I can't type. I meant 'Wooden/Kokiri Shield rated 1 and Shield skill of 3 offsets 4 damage'. I think I should get some caffiene.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)14:52 No.15014204
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    Same guy. Also, here's something I made for an RPGnet thread a couple years ago. Figured you might get some use out of it.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)14:54 No.15014214
    It's mostly good, but the R looks really off to me for some reason. Also, the border could stand to be shinier but it's not necessary.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)14:56 No.15014222
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    Well, all I did was stick the text on it with CS3 (it was for a 'what RPGs don't exist that should' thread), let me attach the un-texted background that I snagged (sadly, for the life of me, I can't remember where; a google search for zelda book cover might bring up something)
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)15:07 No.15014274

    I like it, especially if the hearts are in quarters.

    Also, instead of a little box, you could put a border around the edge you can colour in.
    Because I like colouring in.


    This sounds pretty good too, especially if there are special shields like the Mirror Shield that have a rating of 20 (or whatever massive number you like) against certain attacks.
    Although the reflection would probably be a special quality instead...

    "treatment matitsF", Captcha? When did you become such a pervy woman?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)15:29 No.15014432
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    >One of the trickier categories; this would probably include |stealth| and |bows|, and perhaps dodging as well? Needs some fleshing out.

    This makes perfect sense. Consider Sheik as the paragon of this combination and you know what combat with a Wisdom/Physical would be like. High mobility, stealth and items such as flashbombs, throwing darts, and bladed chains would be their forte.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)15:32 No.15014452
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    Yeah, I was thinking split them into quarters. When all of your quarters have a tic in them (don't color in, it's too much to erase, I mean, after about six months I have to recopy my NWoD sheets because of erase-wear, so that's the thought process there) you're knocked unconscious or dead or whatever.

    As well on Defenses, yeah. Certain Shields or defenses have other qualities to them, like the Mirror Shield reflecting energy (or like in OoT, absorbing then blasting) or the Zora's underwater electric shield doing damage (which could be modelled as a 'damage the attacker' special feature of Zora Fins for blocking, perhaps at the cost of some Magic Bar). IIRC (and I might go load up my cart and play again), the Darknuts/Iron Knuckles in the Spirit Temple, even with defending with the Hylian/Hero's Shield, will still do damage over your shield blocking, so there's precedent (I think) for having overwhelming attacks still do their reduced damage (like cracked bones from slamming a shield too hard, or slammed off your feet and into a wall or pillar for roleplay exposition of how the damage happens).
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)15:38 No.15014496
    Racial differences still haven't been settled. I kinda liked an earlier idea about a stereotype tree, where maybe every level you get points to put in generic things, like virtues or item skills, or you can move up the Racial stereotype tree where you get bonuses specific to the race. It could have three branches. No points for guessing what those branches are.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)15:49 No.15014558
    Goron, Deku, and Zora?

    Then where do Human, Kokiri, and Hylian fit in?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)15:49 No.15014560
    This really isn't that hard. Using Majora's Mask as the basepoint for the four main playable races. Each Race has something that they're good at and get bonuses to, and something they suck at, and get penalties to. Generally there are 2 bonuses and one penalty. This is assuming that points would normally be spent in skills or attributes on a 1-for-1 basis, which my race thing changes the formulae.

    Humans/Hylians/Hyruleans: +1 to any one virtue of their choosing after assigning Virtues (as chosen of the Goddesses), all Skills always cost 1-for-1 as they are the most common people and have their hands in everything. I can't really come up with a weakness here, though. :(

    Deku Scrub: Civilized Deku Scrub always benefit from +1 dice on any Social roll, due to the generally genial nature of the species. Deku Scrubs also have the capability to use their nature for short flight with thier leaves and to fire short-range Ranged attacks (equivalent to the Slingshot in terms of power and range); this ability costs Magic Bar. Deku Scrubs, being wooden, however, take an extra +1 dice of damage from any Fire-based source, such as a Fire Keese or Dodongo's breath attack.

    More in next post...
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)15:54 No.15014584
    Oh, whoops. I guess I wasn't clear. [Race], then three trees of racial upgrades, Wisdom, Power, Courage.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)15:57 No.15014609
    Zora: The race of aquatic beings have the natural capability of breathing underwater; additionally, this allows then a +1 die for mobility and action checks underwater. When a Zora defends with their fins in combat, they can spend Magic Bar to do 1 die worth of damage back to their opponent upon being struck. Zoras, however, are weak to ice magic; ice magic does +1 dice of damage to any Zora.

    Goron: Hearty and rocklike, Goron's are immune to all Fire-based damage (or perhaps just receive insane damage reduction, Goron Link was completely immune to lava damage) and gain +2 Size (and corresponding bonuses, such as potentially Hearts). Goron may also spend a turn rolling into a ball and using this for an attack; this ability costs Magic Bar. Gorons are huge and heavy, however, and always take a -1 to any athletics, speed or finesse-related Skill rolls (to be determiend by the GM or me when I go back and find the skill list), and take +1 dice of damage when underwater (to represent the autodeath drowning in MM).

    Gerudo: The Gerudo are lithe and speedy; Gerudo receive a +1 dice bonus to any speed, agility or finesse-based dice rolls (see Goron description above). Due to this, they are not as hearty however; Gerudo take +1 dice of extra damage when struck by Heavy weapons, and take 1 extra point of damage when Defense is Overwhelmed.

    ... okay, that's not bad stuff. You guys want me to do any other specific races, if you like those?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)15:59 No.15014624
    One thing I had also thought about as weaknesses for the other races was skill costs; but with a very fine skill list, it's probably not as good of an idea as I thought it was (which is why I went with more race-specific bonuses/weaknesses in my writeups). I'd have to alter Hylians, or at least find a good weakness to offset +1 virtue point.

    >locatio capability

    Well, captcha, most Hylians are good navigators, even without maps. so I don't think that'll work.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)16:06 No.15014661
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)16:10 No.15014685
    Gorons shouldn't have to spend magic to roll into a ball, what about that one goron from OoT that was CONSTANTLY rolling?

    The magic would be to add spikes, if we're going by how it works in-game.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)16:15 No.15014727

    If you have ideas for them, I'd like to hear them.

    Sample monster:

    Life: 1/4 Heart.
    Attack: 2k1.
    Damage: 1/4 Heart.
    Traits: Flying, Wanderer, Change (Fire -> Fire Keese, Ice -> Ice Keese).
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)16:16 No.15014737
    Increased speed. Spikes seem to be a "unique to hero" aspect, and make no sense biologically. Goron magic powers should also increase strength, toughness.

    Any zora love?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)16:18 No.15014749
    Sorry; I thought that was implied. We'll amend it to be 'While rolled into a ball, a Goron can spend one turn and <X> Magic Meter to grow spikes. These spikes deal damage as a <whatever 2-damage sword, equivalent to the Razor Sword in MM>. This costs <X> Magic to maintain each round; if the Goron leaves their rolling form, the spikes dissipate and must be reformed from scratch'.

    For Kokiri, let me think...

    Kokiri: Children of the Great Deku Tree, Kokiri are magical in nature. Guided by faeries, Kokiri are capable of using the aid of the faerie to analyze their enemies to find weak points, giving the Kokiri a one-time +1 dice of damage to an attack or find other secrets (at GM discretion, such as Hookshot Locations or Scarecrow Spots). Additionally, due to their magical nature, Kokiri gain +1 dice on any Magic roll. Due to their stature as children, however, Kokiri receive -1 (or -2, if appropriate) size, and all the penalties that would give (such as less starting Hearts), as well as taking 1 extra damage when Defense is Overwhlemed.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)16:22 No.15014770
    Wouldn't Deku also have a size penalty?

    I mean, the princess could fit in a bottle.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)16:22 No.15014772
    Eh. The spikes, since they required MP to activate, seemed a magical effect to me that Goron's might be capable of. Plus the idea of a Goron charging an enemy emplacement of Lizalfos and going 'HAH!' and growing spikes and destroying them as he bowls through their defenses is awesome to me.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)16:25 No.15014797
    The Princess was really a special case, since a lot of the other Deku (King, Butler, guards) were relatively the same size as the Hylians. I'd chalk the Princess fitting into the bottle to be a complaint about people having to pick up and toss Ruto around the belly of Jabu-Jabu in OoT or a 'story versus gameplay' segregation moment. Or perhaps related to their ability to scrunch down into the Deku Flowers.

    You could impose a size penalty on the Deku Scrub if neccessary, but they all weren't shown to be small. Also, I was thinking about Deku Scrub Link being immune to the poison in Woodfall, and I can't recall if this is the case or not.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)16:38 No.15014915
    Nope. He can just bounce over it.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)16:54 No.15015058
    which reminds me, deku scrubs can't swim

    I'm a fan of the idea that Deku scrubs have a LOT of weaknesses, but can do a number of things no other race can do to compensate for it

    for example, they could hide underground and LIVE in those flowers, in addition to being able to leap out of them, fire projectiles, bounce across water for a limited time, and a number of other things that are possible simply due to their physiology
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)16:57 No.15015080
    This is all true. Do we really want to go through and make the physiology of the races that impacting though? That means Hylians get fucked like humans in most tabletop RPGs with no real special qualities.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)16:59 No.15015106
    Where did this with size bonuses and penalties come from? I thought of size as something that had both positive and negative consequences.


    What do you mean by extra die of damage? And what is Overwhelming?
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)17:02 No.15015130
    (hello again)
    Most of these sound good, though I'm not entirely sure about the Gerudo, mostly just because I remember Iron Knuckles being Gerudo, though I could be wrong.

    One of my friends insists on playing a Twili, got any ideas for those? I'm thinking mental bonusers and resistance to darkness, with vulnerability to light.

    looks good, but what does "Wanderer" do? For something bigger, mind making beta stats for OoT-era Gohma? want to see how something big and tough, with a specific weak point would look.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)17:06 No.15015158
    Extra die of damage meaning extra die for rolling in the purposes of the R#K setup. Like if you are normally going to roll 4K2, you'd roll 5K2, giving you the chance for bigger numbers.

    Overwhelming was something I brought up when talking about Defense and shields above, and how in the Zelda games defense is normally absolute (if you defend with your shield, you generally take no damage), except for a few cases that I vaguely recall like a Darknut smashing the hell out of you with it's axe or hammer. Overwhelming was simply a term for 'if the damage exceeds the Shield values, the excess carries over' (IE: If something hits you for 5 and your Shield absorbs 4, you'll still take 1) that I stuck in the race descriptions.

    For size, I assumed that bigger size had benefits (like the discussion about Hookshoting a Goron's stomach and being pulled off your feet) and lower size beyond the 'normal' for Hylians had penalties, and was just kindof throwing out ideas.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)17:07 No.15015173
    The only Iron Knuckle that was a Gerudo was the brainwashed Nabooru. The rest of them were only exampled as constructs within the Spirit Temple, unless I completely missed something when I killed them.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)17:10 No.15015200
    Duly noted. I had forgotten only one was a Gerudo.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)17:14 No.15015237
    ...And in other news, Looks like that's our bump limit. This thread is on the page 15 express now.

    Who wants to make a new thread?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)17:15 No.15015248
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)17:16 No.15015257
    I figured we'd make it a bit more interesting than big = good, small = bad.
    Large Size leads to lower movement, stability, and being easier to spot. Smaller ones would move faster and hide more easily, but be knocked around more easily as well. Also, with the hookshot matter, being small is a positive if you want the transport aspect, while being big is good if you want to pull things to you.

    Yes, I am now imagining a bunch of Deku Scrubs hookshoting through the air.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)17:35 No.15015403
    Argh. started a new thread, and wrote down what we have so far in Wordpad to copypasta it over, but my internet's being stupid.

    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)17:53 No.15015587

    Challenge accepted. I'll put it in the new thread (hint hint).

    A multi-stage boss could be fun to stat too.

    "knonon one:", eh, Captcha? NONONON.

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