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  • File : 1306099792.jpg-(190 KB, 756x1188, Twilight Princess.jpg)
    190 KB Zelda RPG Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)17:29 No.15015368  
    Old thread is http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/15007189/

    Right. System so far - Your stats are divided into three main categories: the Virtues of the triforce (Power, Wisdom, and Courage), your character's basic Attributes (Physical, Mental, and Social), and your various skills (most of which are related to item classes -- bows, blades, heavy weapons, etc).

    Conflict is resolved by a roll & keep d6 pool, using linear comparison for opposed checks. This means that you roll X dice (with X = your ranks in the relevant Attribute + your ranks in the relevant skill) and ignore all but the Y highest (with Y = your ranks in the relevant Virtue). Linear comparison means that in cases of a contested roll (such as in combat) you compare your highest roll to your opponent's highest, your second highest to their second highest, and so forth.

    Character advancement will be classless, and may or may not be level-less (we haven't quite decided that yet). There will be a number of special abilities available to choose from, available in a tree setup under the relevant skill. More ranks in the skill gives access to more advanced abilities related to that skill. Whether abilities will be obtained along with skill ranks or separately has yet to be determined.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)17:31 No.15015379
    Unopposed roles funtion as a set number of successes to overcome. For example, To push a heavy block, two rolls of >4 would be required. One would roll one's Physical, and keep one's Power.

    Core races consist of Hylian, Zora, Goron, Gerudo, and Deku Scrub, with more under development. (Well, more development than the current ones.) Races recieve no bonuses to Virtues, save Hylians, who recieve +1 to a virtue of their choice.

    Each character has a Mass/Size, determined by race and armor, and influenced by other items. Mass/Size effects sinking/swimming, use of hookshot, resistance to knockback, and so on.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)17:34 No.15015393
    Race Guy here. You want me to repost the base five Races (Hylian, Zora, Goron, Gerudo, Deku Scrub) here for reference? I still have the last thread where I posted them open in another Chrome tab.

    For advancement, I really don't think a level-based advancement fits Zelda. You should hand out XP/AP/whatever you want to call it points, and have those things be spent on skill ranks and such ala WoD. It's the easiest way to keep some type of Zelda aesthetic without adding in levels.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)17:35 No.15015416
    Each weapon has a specific increment of damage - i.e a sword dealing 1/2 heart per increment, while an Iron Knuckle's axe would deal 2 hearts per increment. When attacking, The number of successes you acchieve over your opponent determines how many increments of damage you deal to them. Shields add to one's dice while defending, and Armor reduces the base damage increment of an enemy's attack.

    A character's heart meter is determined by 3 + Courage + Physical, and one's magic meter is Wisdom + Mental.

    yeah, one sec, lemme finish copypasta'ing my complement of what we have.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)17:36 No.15015422
    Here's what we have for skills so far. As you can see, most are related to item use, in keeping with the theme of the video games. The list is currently open to expansion as needed.

    |Blade| - Sword, Knife, Axe, etc.
    |Armor| - Magic Armor, Zora Armor, Darknut Armor, etc.
    |Rod| - Cane of Somaria, Fire Rod, Cane of Byrna, etc.
    |Instrument| - Ocarina, Flute, Pipes, Drums, etc.
    |Tool| - Hookshot, Boomerang, Grappeling Hook, etc.
    |Bomb| - Waterbomb, Powder Keg, Bombchu, etc.
    |Heavy| - Ball and Chain, Greatsword, Hammer, etc.
    |Bow| - Fire Arrows, Ice Arrows, Light Arrows, etc.
    |Shield| - Mirror Shield, Hylian Shield, Kokiri Shield, etc.
    |Magic| - The spells from Ocarina of Time, the medallions from A Link to the Past, etc.
    |Stealth| - One of the few skills not specifically related to item use.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)17:37 No.15015425
    Skills for social interaction and most physical feats such as climbing, jumping, riding, and so forth probably will not be necessary, since they can probably be resolved simply through the Attributes and Virtues alone

    While certain Virtue/Attribute combinations go better together than others, there's at least some application for each Virtue in the Physical, Mental, and Social arenas.

    Quite straightforward; Power governs the use of |heavy| weapons and general feats of strength. Power also contributes to damage dealt in general, even for weapons not specifically governed by it.
    Power governs the use of offensive magic, both of the damaging and debilitating varieties.
    Power governs the more forceful types of social interaction, such as intimidation and browbeating.

    One of the trickier categories; this would probably include |stealth| and |bows|, and perhaps dodging as well? Needs some fleshing out.
    A match made in heaven. Of course, Wisdom governs knowledge of lore and useful information. It also governs defensive and healing magic, and increases your overall magical capacity.
    Wisdom governs social graces and logical rhetoric. Diplomacy and civil discussion goes here.

    Courage governs the use of |blades| and |tools|, as well as riding, climbing, swimming, and other feats of adventurous derring-do. It also increases your total number of hearts.
    Naturally, Courage governs tenacity, resolve, and...well, courage. It also governs the use of magic for travel and utility (think Farore's Wind).
    Courage governs your ability to inspire people -- either to perform heroic deeds, or simply to trust and like you. Courage has a big impact on first impressions.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)17:40 No.15015454
    of the Virtues, they each of an intrinsic benefit outside of roles and skill. Courage increases the Heart meter, Wisdom increases the Magic meter, and Power increases the damage output of your attacks.

    A base for the hookshot's function was devised, with a successful hit having the following effects, depending on Mass. If an object or creature has more mass than you, you're pulled to it, if it has less, it's pulled to you. If it has equal mass, then it becomes a contest of physical/power.

    That's all I have compiled, feel free to check the old thread and its predecessor for more details and discussion. Additionally, feel free to point out anything I missed. Alright. Let's continue. Where were we?
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)17:43 No.15015489
    Ah, forgot to mention, I had a thought. Should we give Masks their own Skill, or should we allow anyone who finds a Mask to get full benefits from it?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)17:45 No.15015500
    I wonder if Size/Mass shouldn't affect the Heart meter as well? A Goron should, by default, have a bit more capability to take damage than say a Kokiri. But are we going to just handle that with armor/defense ratings and let it be?

    I'd like to know more about weapons and armor; from the Keese descriptive in the previous thread, I'd assume that everything has a damage rating of 1 to X (I'd say a good threshold of damage would be 12, which is 3 hearts per hit if it does it's full damage). Also, what did you, OP, think of the Overwhelm idea regarding the Shield defense that I posted in the previous thread? I guess I should call myself Defense and Race Guy.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)17:45 No.15015504
    3 stats: Power, Widsom, Courage

    Power: Strength, Toughness: How hard you hit and how much punishment you can take.
    Wisdom: Intelligence, Charisma: How proffecient you are.
    Courage: Toughness, Dexterity: How much punishment you can take and how little you give a fuck.

    Also bed time, bump fortomorrow
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)17:46 No.15015519
    I think Masks should fall under Magic if they require any special uses, but mostly Masks should probably just give a bonus (or in the case of Transformation Masks, the bonuses/penalties of the race into which they transform). So Bunny Hood, while equipped, adds to Courage/Physical, or the Mask of Truth adds to Wisdom/Mental in addition to the talk to animals/Gossip Stones/read writings effect.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)17:48 No.15015536
    Umm... was this in the original thread? I thought we were just doing Power/Wisdom/Courage and then Phys/Ment/Soci underneath those for kindof rules-light or generalness? Or are you just adding potential descriptors.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)17:51 No.15015567
    >or should we allow anyone who finds a Mask to get full benefits from it

    This one. Don't see how one could be skilled at wearing masks.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)17:52 No.15015575
    Er, that's not quite it, but...

    For Overwhelm, my understand of how Shields worked was that they simply added dice to your defense pool. Say, a Stalfos swings at you with his sword. For the sake of example, let's just say he rolls 4, keeps 3. The defending player has 3 Courage, and 4 Physical, so they would roll 4, keep 3 as well to try and defend against the attack. If the defending player had 2 ranks in the shield skill, however, (I'm picturing more ranks in Shield = you can use bigger and better shields) Then he would instead roll 6 and keep 3, against the Stalfos' 4k3, offering a higher chance of succeeding and denying damage.

    Is your suggestion something along the lines of some heavier attacks denying shield, or something to that effect?

    I don't actually think that mass should effect hearts, since Link himself is admittedly rather scrawny, but can take a HELL of a punch with all those hearts he has. Characters with more mass will generally have higher physical, I think, so that will tie into Heart count.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)17:58 No.15015633
    It depends on how we're handling defense.

    Gorons are pretty slow and they're huge targets, so they're probably easy to hit. If that's the case then they definitely should have more hearts to represent their girth and rock skin.

    A fast Hylian like Link is probably a hell of a lot harder to hit than a Goron because he's always dodging around and stuff. It would make sense that he wouldn't be able to take as much damage when he DOES get hit.

    Have only been skimming through the threads, so let me know of this sort of thing has already been addressed.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:00 No.15015656
    Addendum: Let's keep in mind that Link at the end of any Zelda game probably represents a ridiculously powerful character. He doesn't start out with that many hearts.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:00 No.15015664
    Yeah, Now that I've looked at some other stuff, I see where I was making a mistaken assumption. The Shield theory I had put forward had Shields essentially as an interrupter of attack, and essentially a way to prevent incoming damage at the expense of doing anything else that turn (like throwing up your shield in the games). But seeing it written out like you did makes it make more sense, and Overwhelm is a pretty moot point without the thought process I had (which was, admittedly, a half-formed method itself!)

    My orignial suggestion was based on an assumption of Shields not applying on the initial attack roll and only applying if they were chosen to be used, against the incoming damage after being successfully hit, rather than against the attack roll itself. In that instance, damage would be subtracted from the shield rating, to a minimum of 0. Any damage above the rating of the shield (say an Iron Knuckle's 4 against a Kokiri Shield of 1 and a person wearing a Basic Tunic of 1) carries over, strikes against armor and is reduced again, giving a final damage rating of 2.

    Does that make sense?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:04 No.15015698
    As an addendum, I forgot to mention, Defending with a Shield is considered an action, so uses up your action that turn, and can't be done if you've already made an attack that turn (unless, say, the Bunny Hood lets you have 2 actions due to it's speed increase). It's essentially a way to go 'Oh shit, I'm in trouble here!' and try to keep yourself alive longer than you would without a shield. Which means Shields are important and useful, but not overpowering outside of their innate magical qualities like the Mirror Shield.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:04 No.15015700

    Let's not use Link as an example. He's a fucking ubermensch. He'd be able to dodge like a ninja AND take a hit like a brick wall.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:05 No.15015711
    Eventually we should work in rules for shield bash and reflecting projectiles to make shields more useful, but I think that can wait until we have the basics solid.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:07 No.15015725
    Reflecting is probably best left to 'if you successfully defend against the projectile, half of the damage is done back to the enemy' for the Mirror Shield and equivalents, like the Zora Fin's defensive electrical field. For something like the Master Sword and baseballswinging energy, I'd say that's probably more a quality of the weapon and a successful Courage/Physical roll against what successes the attacker got?
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)18:08 No.15015735
    I like the idea of taking a full action to defend at the cost of an attack... how about this -

    Shield, like all other skills, is added to the Roll count alongside Physical. However, but taking a full action to defend, one can also add their shield skill to the KEEP pool as well. i.e, in my analogy above, the Phys 4, Courage 3, Shield 2 player would have a standard roll 6 keep 3 while on the recieving end of an attack, but can forego attacking to turn that into a roll 6 keep 5. That way, a shield-wearing player can defend against something with... say, roll 5 keep 4, which would normally do an automatic damage increment, on account have having 1 kept die unopposed.

    make sense to you?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:11 No.15015766
    Sure. It lines up with the rest of the system, keeps the Zelda visual of 'OHSHI-*SHIELD!*' against an enemy, and works within your Rk# system. :) Glad I could contribute something else.

    Right now I'm going through the race writeups I dumped in the last thread and altering them. Mostly to account for Size for the Kokiri and Goron, and to alter the Kokiri and Gerudo's 'take an extra damage when Defending' aspect.

    Speaking of Defense, how are we handling defending with non-Shield weapons, such as Gerudo using double scimitars? Or should that just be noted as a 'flavor text' and ranks of Shield just mean 'you can defend against incoming attacks'?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:12 No.15015768
         File1306102332.png-(7 KB, 301x267, 1265577281941.png)
    7 KB

    Alright, just throwing my two cents in here. Haven't read all the stuff in the old thread so apologies in advance if this shit sounds bananas.

    As far as Wizdom/Physical goes I would put all dodge and counter skills in there as well as feats that require loads of technique, physical activities that are counter-intuitive in their performance etc. Unfortunately I'm waaaay to tired to come up with any examples.

    Also, for Power/Physical I would suggest having it increase either hearts or some type of damage soak. I blame this on Ganondork. Of course, such prowess could come from talents or similar bonuses. As I said, no idea what was posted in the last thread.

    I hope this thread stays alive until I wake again. Good luck!
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:14 No.15015803
    Parasitic Armored Arachnid: Queen Gohma
    Life: 9 Hearts.
    Attack: 4k2.
    Damage: 1/2 Heart.
    Traits: Spawn (Gohma Larva), Armour 1 [1/4 Heart less damage per attack], Webspinner, Climber.

    I don't really know the best way to stat it...
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:16 No.15015823
    That sounds like a good way of handling it, but I can think of one issue with foregoing an attack to use the shield: We don't want to get situations where one person gets to attack every turn and the other person is forced to use their shield every turn or take a hit, with no way to counter. Basically, we don't want whoever attacks first to be able to press a relentless assault. We need to design the rules for things like dodging and shield bashes so that they can be used to open up counter attacks.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:16 No.15015827
    9 Hearts seems like a lot (36 total Life). Did Queen Gohma take that many hits from th Kokiri Sword (which did 1 damage per) to actually die? Or am I wrong in assuming that damage is solely a factor of the weapon, and damage is weapon + overflow from the roll?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:19 No.15015851
    Well, you don't have to defend every turn if you don't want to. At least that's how I view it, coming from a background of NWoD where this is pretty much the Dodge mechanic just as a die roll. It's a tactical issue; do I defend and take no damage, or do I willingly take 1 or 2 (or more if I'm a poor Kokiri fighting an Iron Knuckle) damage and be able to hit the enemy for damage in return? Or do I defend and retreat, and try to find another method to deal with it (get range, hit with magic; or flee down the corridor and try to get out of the cavern).
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:19 No.15015852
    I think defending with weapons should be handled the exact same way as defending with a shield, perhaps as detailed here: >>15015735

    However, it would probably be less effective, and it shouldn't let the user reflect projectiles and use shield bashes. Basically, the shield needs to be useful in ways other than basic defense, just as it is in Zelda games.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)18:21 No.15015880
    Hm.. the problem is... we've been trying to be as thematically close to LoZ as possible, but that layout doesnt really depict how most bosses need to be stunned, or can only be harmed on one particular spot.

    How about a monster-only trait "Impregnable". Monsters with this trait count as having a completely ridiculous armor rating (say, i dunno. 8.), but have a weak point with no armor at all. That way, someone who goes for a brute force character might be able to power through a boss' defenses, but a more effecient method is attacking it's weak point. further, some creatures could have vulnerabilities to certain types of damage (say, piercing for Gohma, Crushing for Volvagia, etc) that stuns them if it hits their weak point. Your thought. I'm making most of this up as I go.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:22 No.15015883
    Well yeah, we just need to make sure that using a shield to defend still allows you to reposition yourself to go on the offensive if you so choose.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:23 No.15015898

    Yeah, I think we definitely need to have special rules for enemies that are considered bosses/minibosses. That should go on the list of things to work out once we have the basic combat down.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:24 No.15015905
    Do we really want unopposed dice to be guaranteed hits? I could see it being 3+ or 4+ for them (2/3 or 1/2 chance, respectively). A superior foe would beat you down eventually, but with some good rolling and a bit of luck you could weather an attack unharmed.

    Sacrificing offense for defense works well in that you can block damage really well, but you don't get an opportunity to strike back, so you can't rely on it in the long run.

    I was thinking of the option to return blows instead of trying to just defend them. This would be analogous to your full defense in that it's giving up one of offense/defense to strengthen the other.
    Giving up your defense for the turn would mean your hits on the opposed roll would deal damage to the enemy. Next part is relevant for this.
    Two considerations for how defending works: either there's no difference between canceled rolls and hits for the defender, since all he's doing is preventing damage, or cancels cancel, and every hit for the defender negates a hit for the attacker. This latter system carries with it the risk that it takes FOREVER to punch through someone's defenses.
    So I suggest we go with the former (no functional difference between hitting and canceling). However, if you counterattack, and cancels still prevent damage, then is that too strong? If that's the case, I suggest that when you counterattack, you still take damage for dice that would have canceled otherwise. Armor would still apply as normal, of course.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:24 No.15015907
    I think a template for monsters would be in order down the road, that includes Armor/Weakspot Armor in addition to the Damage rating (which to me looks better as a flat number, like weapons, but whichever works for the game itself).

    So for, say, Queen Gohma
    Parasitic Armored Arachnid: Queen Gohma
    Life: 3 Hearts (12)
    Attack: 4k2
    Damage: 2
    Armor/Weakspot Armor: 4/1
    Traits: Spawn - Gohma Larvae (DMG: 1, ARM: 1, ATK: 2k1), Climber (+1 to Wisdom/Physical)

    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)18:25 No.15015920
    that should say "Your thoughts?" at the end there.

    Part of what we've contemplated so far is that Skill values don't just add dice, but also open up new abilities. i.e, enough points in |Blade| and you can do Spin Attacks, or Ending Blows.

    Similarly, Points in the Shield skill could offer abilities like Shield Bash, which counts as a full-defense action, and stuns an enemy for one round, or Deflect Projectile, which is self explanatory.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:25 No.15015922

    I'd suggest making it so if you defend with weapons, you only use half of your Shield skill to the roll, to show the increased difficulty of blocking with weapons and such.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:30 No.15015958
    This is actually better than my idea. May I expand upon it?

    Boss creatures get the trait Weakspot. This weakspot is generally a particular point on the body (such as Queen Gohma's eye, or Bongo-Bongo's hands) which, when hit, stuns the enemy. Enemies who are stunned have their Armor reduced to 1 for <X> number of turns, though they can still act and attack (just to be fair, after all!). After these turns have elapsed, Armor returns to normal.

    This makes Kokiri an invaluable party member with the faerie, as well as we could make up spells like, say, Din's Insight in order to find the weakspots.

    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:32 No.15015975
    I like this idea a lot. I think it would make sense if less skilled shield users could only use shields to block attacks, while advanced users could actually stun their attacker with a successful block.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:32 No.15015982
    Looks like a start. We'll need to account for methods for getting at weak spots (people just saying they attack it would be incredibly boring and defeating the point, wouldn't it?)
    Re: Climber
    Climbing ability, and all other such things (like Zora swimming) shouldn't be dice roll bonuses. They're how these things move. Swimming for a Zora is like walking for Hylians. If we're making them roll for that, then everybody would have to roll for walking. Obstacles and turbulence would be handled as for anybody, either you can handle it or you can't. Maybe simpler if you don't need to worry about the swimming while you're handling it, though...
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:37 No.15016014
    I think that's a cool way to work in getting info on a boss's weakpoint from Navi or whoever.
    Bosses should definitely have special rules for how they receive damage / expose their weakpoint.

    Possible example: Once tentacle-monster's 4 tentacles have been destroyed (2 hearts each) tentacle-monster becomes stunned and exposes its weakpoint for 3 turns. Tentacles regenerate at the end of 3 turns.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:38 No.15016036
    I wasn't really envisioning it as mobility or method of movement; in my mind, Climber was representative of Queen Gohma's stealth on the roof as she scuttled around up there then spat out babies on you. Just like Lanmolas would have Tunneling, which would allow them to attempt surprise attacks after combat has already started (which is, I guess, the same thing that Climber is for Queen Gohma). Perhaps the Traits should be capabilities, like Surprise (which is then defined as 'can surprise attack after combat starts') and such.

    For getting at the weak points, I like >>15016014 's idea. For some bosses it'd be hard to come up with some, but for others it'd be pretty easy (Gyorg gomes to mind, stunning with an arrow into the body).

    Mobility should come into play with aspects of characters out of their environments (Zora swimming awesomely but Goron's sinking like a rock and barely able to move, thus having finesse/agility penalties underwater worse than anyone else unless they have XXXXL Zora Tunics), but that's just me.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:42 No.15016065
    Usually movement in Zelda games is determined by the items you have, so you're right, it shouldn't be determined by die rolls.

    I think we should still have skills for them, however (maybe call them traits or something to differentiate them). For example, zora characters might have an innate Swim 2 skill that allows them to swim underwater. Hylians might have a Swim 1 skill that lets them swim on the surface, but they can obtain Zora's Flippers / Silver Scale / Zora Armor that gives them Swim 2. Similar things could be done for climbing, lifting, things like that.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:43 No.15016075
    Well, my point for Zora still stands.

    I was thinking Gorons literally can't swim. They sink, and have to walk/climb their way out again. If the pit is unescapable, they're in deep shit. Otherwise it's mostly a matter of holding your breath and getting out.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:45 No.15016094
    Well, yeah. They just sink (which in MM was just like falling down a bottomless pit). I was more trying to give a penalty beyond 'I have to hold my breath' for Goron's underwater, which is why I was suggesting a penalty to agility-type rolls.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)18:45 No.15016097
    Speaking of inescapable pits, I have a question. How do we handle bottomless pits/falling into lava? Logic dictates that such things be instant-kill, but in the games all that happens is returning to the start of the room and losing 1 heart.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:48 No.15016128
    I'd say ignore the bottomless pits and don't use them; for lava just have it had a Hazard Rating in damage, mitigated by some armor (so a Goron Tunic/Armor ignores it), and do damage ala the Fire Temple.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:49 No.15016139
    I think the game logic will have to take a beating here, and we'll just have to do damage with them. Not instant kills (unless it's a REAAAAAALLY long fall), but unless you get your ass out of that lava ASAP you're dead.

    Or we could just institute that kind of respawning mechanic but that feels pretty damn immersion killing.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:49 No.15016149
    I guess that all depends on how true we want to stay to the games.

    Do we want this to be a Zelda-flavored RPG, or a pen-and-paper simulation of a Zelda game?

    Personally, I think that the very presence of endless pits would kind of shift things towards the latter option, as endless pits generally don't exist in the real world, and thus don't lend themselves well to realistic rules...
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:51 No.15016167
    I prefer a Zelda-flavor and decent-mechanic-adaptation RPG (which I think we're doing alright with, with what we have) versus p&p sim.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)18:52 No.15016179
    I like the idea that lava should be very dangerous, but shouldn't do realistic damage (Tons of damage per turn rather than instant death).

    Bottomless pits are just... I don't know. I feel like they kind of belong in Zelda, and yet I can't think of any way to effectively work them into the rules.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)18:52 No.15016188
    >Do we want this to be a Zelda-flavored RPG, or a pen-and-paper simulation of a Zelda game?
    First one. Right, disregard my question.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)19:01 No.15016266
    Well, you could still have deep rifts and stuff, give people a decent chance of saving themselves and getting out of them. Many kinds of wall are climbable, for instance.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)19:04 No.15016295
    Yeah. Regular pits (with variable depths) would be workable, maybe with other stuff at the bottom (water, sludge, pit full of Wallmaster spawn). Could let them make Courage/Physical checks as reflexive actions when falling to, say, grab the wall and drag themselves to a slow point (or use a weapon to do so), and such.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)19:21 No.15016468
    Bumping. Also, thinking about monsters for down the line. I like what we've gotten so far, above. I also like the idea of using Traits for special powers. So here's some potential lists of special traits. Some of these would be workable on other creatures as well.

    Surprise: Covers any stealth-based ability such as Bongo-Bongo's invisibility, Queen Gohma's scuttling or Lanmolas' digging. It allows the creature to take an action to hide itself, and make a Wisdom/Physical check (which we'd give some base rating per trait I guess, like we were doing for Attack?) to make a surprise attack against the target(s).
    Spawn: The creature is capable of spawning <X> number of smaller versions of itself, which have a predefined set of ATK/DMG/ARM attributes. Wallmasters are a regular monster that would have this.
    Shell: Functions like Shield Defense for a PC, up to and including Reflecting.
    Knockdown: The monster's attacks have the Knockdown/Knockback capability. Large monsters like Bongo-Bongo or Iron Knuckle would have this.
    Element Charge: Can give itself an elemental property for damage, as long as there is an appropriate source of the element around. Fire Keese are a perfect example of this.

    I'm still working on some.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)19:34 No.15016596
    Climb/Swim/Fly for things that can move as such without needing to roll. Also, it was in the last thread, but your "Elemental Charge" was dubbed "Change", for specific criteria changing what monster it is.

    On the subject of PC's, looks like we've decided that blocking with a weapon uses one's Shield skill, but cannot be used for special shield abilities like Shield Bash. I'm thinking of building a few mock character sheets as test runs, but we need to decide on 3 things.

    1) How many points to allow for Virtues, Attributes, and Skills;
    2) Which costs are linear, and which are scaling;
    3) We need to finally decide on racial bonuses.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)19:41 No.15016691
    Bottomless pits are home to Pitmasters, creatures that feed off the feelings and life-force of the fools that fall in.

    It kindly places them at the doorway of the room, so that they may cultivate more delicious feelings for when they next fall in.

    I think multi-stage bosses should have a stat block like:

    Life: 3 Hearts | 4 Hearts
    Attack: 3k2 (Random) | 5k3 (Ranged, Explode)
    Damage: 2 | 3
    Armour: 5 | 2
    Weakness: 2 (Smash) | 1 (Melee)
    Traits: Immobile | Flying

    For a theoretical "Egg that causes rocks to fall from the ceiling with its rocking / dragon that flies around blowing up the entire room" boss.

    Also, I think I forgot to say that "Wanderer" was supposed to represent the Keese's random movement.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)19:41 No.15016692
    I still assume that those wouldn't be neccessary, unless we're going to do the same for Zora (Swim ranks automatically) and such. If so, then we'll just call it 'Mobility' and have it be specific to the creature type. IE: Gyorg has Mobility, defined as equivalent to 3 Ranks of Swim or somesuch.

    I'd say the only way to figure out balance for points is to do some tests. Perhaps a 7/15/7 split for Virt/Attr/Skil to start, then go up and down from there?

    I'd say costs are scaled for attributes, linear for skills. Was there a maximum rating for each that we were going for? I'd say, let's figure out that, then we can go on linear/scaled (I'm a fan of scaled costs though). Also, were we going to make Virtues purchasable? If so, I'd make it expensive, like increasing Blood Potency in NWoD Vampire.

    For races... gimme a few to post some updated/edited ones. You already included Hylians: +1 to a Virtue of their choice though, which I like the best for their thematics.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)19:44 No.15016730
    Where the hell did everyone go...?

    I propose 6 points for Virtues, with linear costs, minimum 1 per Virtue. 12 points for Attributes, with slightly scaling costs (each 3rd point increases cost by 1). Minimum -2, but only 1 Attribute may be below 1. 10 Points for Skills, with each level costing the number it would be (going from 0 -> 1 would cost 1 point, going from 3 -> 4 would cost 4 points).

    Anyone want to give their 2 cents?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)19:47 No.15016762
    Oh, we're going with negative scales? I totally forgot that. That throws off what I had had in mind, yeah; I had assumed everything started at 1 or 0 for Virtues and you bought them up, and all Attributes and Skills started at 0, and you bought them up with, at creation, a 1-for-1 cost, with scaling coming later on.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)19:48 No.15016778
    >You already included Hylians: +1 to a Virtue of their choice though, which I like the best for their thematics.
    Is that to be their only bonus, though? Someone mentioned a capicity to reroll, which I like. Maybe reroll 1 die per R&K pool.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)19:56 No.15016877
    For skills, let's institute a maximum of 6 or so, which depicts near-absolute mastery with that type of item. Perhaps every even number grants a new ability. Additionally, some items have their own levels, and can only be used by someone of sufficient skill. some basic items would be level 1, so just basic knowledge is needed to apply the item, while things like the Gilded Sword, or Mirror Shield, or Fire Rod have higher levels.

    Virtues will only be purchasable very, VERY rarely. Like, "finding a piece of the Triforce" rare. Attributes and Skills, however can both be bought with Points gained through XP. perhaps Virtues can be bought as well, but for drastically, completely exorbitant prices.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)19:57 No.15016887
    I'd say a reroll of a die of your choosing (maybe up to some Virtue number of times per session?) is fair, but you must keep the reroll, even if it's lower than the original.

    Zora: On successful Shield Defense, a Zora inflicts 1 Damage on the enemy who attacked her; this ability costs <X> Magic Meter. Zora have a natural Ranged-type weapon (launched fins), with a Damage rating of 2. Zora gain an automatic 2 ranks in the Swim skill (which negates mobility penalties other races would have). Zora take +1 damage from Ice-based sources.

    Goron: Goron may spend 1 turn in rolled-up form to generate magical Spikes that function as a 2 Damage weapon; each turn this is active, the Goron spends <X> Magic Meter. If the Goron leaves the ball form, this must be reformed from the start. Goron gain +2 Size and all that that entails. Goron take +1 Damage from Water-based sources.

    More in a couple minutes...
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)20:01 No.15016921
    (I still find the Zora fin-launch thing weird as hell)
    In my own opinion, shouldnt Gorons receive some sort of bonus to Physical? or are we treating Attributes like Virtues in that no race gets bonuses to them?
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)20:01 No.15016923
    I am still against the linear comparison and the dice check thing. Cumulative rolls are faster and more intuitive. And definitely point buy for all stats, no need for levels.
    >> TKDB 05/22/11(Sun)20:02 No.15016934
    >10 Points for Skills, with each level costing the number it would be (going from 0 -> 1 would cost 1 point, going from 3 -> 4 would cost 4 points).

    I really do not like the idea of scaling costs for skills. I'd say give 6 points to spend on skills at character creation, with a flat rate of 1 point per rank, but cap it at no more than 3 ranks in any given skill to start off.

    As for the rest, the attributes look good, but I'm a bit confused on the virtues section. You say:
    >6 points for Virtues, with linear costs, minimum 1 per Virtue

    By that, do you mean that Virtues start at 0 and you're required to put at least 1 point in each (giving a maximum of 4 ranks in a single Virtue if you only put the minimum in the others), or do you mean the Virtues start at 1 and you still get the 6 ranks?

    The latter seems way too skewed; you shouldn't be able to get that high a score in any Virtue right off the bat. And in the case of the former, why not just start the Virtues at 1 rank and give 4 points to spend? Same end result, less confusing.

    Attributes look pretty good, though. Might need a little tweaking after playtesting, but as a starting point it seems ok.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)20:04 No.15016954
    As far as we know, only Mikau had launchable fins, and most agreed they had to be some sort of attachment, even if they were and organic attachment taken from shells or harvested from coral. Mikau is also the only Zora warrior we see until twilight princess, where the Zora wear armor and use pole-arms, with no fin launching from any of them.

    Only Mikau's sonic abilities used up his magic meter. His fin abilities were non magical.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)20:04 No.15016957
    This looks like a lot of fun.

    Character inventory should be something to consider. Sure, characters get artifacts that are their primary means of interacting with the world, but that leaves no room for a very iconic kind of item: the bottle!

    Bottles hold your powerful consumables. If it has a significant effect, doesn't have an item skill associated with it, and it's not a special kind of item (I'm assuming that masks will have their own rules), then you need to store it in a bottle.

    Bottle items can be used without any chance of failure by anybody who holds the bottle, and the effect they have is usually very powerful, unless you're just using it to store a fish or something. Potions are a big deal, after all.

    PCs should have to work hard for their bottles.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)20:06 No.15016978
    Kokiri: Kokiri are able to suss out enemy weak spots with an appropriate roll via their Faerie Guide. Being small, Kokiri gain -2 Size and all that entails. Kokiri take an extra point of damage from all non-Magic sources.

    Deku Scrub: Deku Scrub are capable of generating a short-range Ranged-type attack, with Damage 1 by spending <X> Magic Meter. Deku Scrubs benefit from +1 dice on all Social interactions. Deku Scrubs take +1 Damage from all Fire-based sources.

    Gerudo: Gerudo are capable of using weapons as a full Shield Defense. ... this is the one where I'm coming up short.
    >> TKDB 05/22/11(Sun)20:06 No.15016988
    Cumulative rolls are slightly more intuitive, I'll give you that, but not really faster in actual gameplay time. It's a lot easier to simply compare higher vs lower numbers than to figure out the high numbers, adding the totals, then compare the totals. Taking the sum actually ADDS a step, and even those who are usually good at mental math can have derp moments where it takes them a good 10 seconds to figure out the sum of their dice.

    It takes slightly longer to explain the rules, but once understood it actually helps streamline gameplay.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)20:07 No.15016993
    I thought that the period made it clear. The only thing in Zora that requires magic is the electrical field. The Ranged weapon was just the only thing I could think of that kindof worked; I guess we could strip it and just give them the Swim Ranks and the electrical field?
    >> TKDB 05/22/11(Sun)20:08 No.15017000
    Yes to this. All of it. Bottles = win.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)20:09 No.15017009
    Aye, bottles are glass, glass is uncommon and valuable. An beginning party would attain one bottle to share amongst them, cue puzzles involving liquids or things to catch, and tossing the bottle to the knocked out guy so the Fairy can rez him in the boss battle.

    Higher level parties, everyone is at 12 hearts at least, everyone has at least one bottle to themselves, along with their personal arsenals. A few characters may have found some sort of divine connection... and the scrub still needs a fairy to rez him when the party gets hit by the dragon's fire blast. Poor wood dude.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)20:09 No.15017016
    Hey Boomer were you been, ever gonna finish twilight princess?
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)20:09 No.15017020
    Regarding Virtues, i meant the former. automatic 1 in each, aaaand... I'm not sure about 4 points to spend, but I cant think of a better number. 4 it is.

    Skills, mmh, I was suggesting scaling to encourage versatility, which is a key element of the games. Sure, you could make a swordsman with 4 in |Blades| and 0 everything else, or you could get a 2 in 3 different skills, and a spare 1.

    I guess it just comes down to which works better for the system, I'm by no means an expert.

    This leaves us with attributes. Which I guess we're keeping? Did you have a different number to suggest re: starting point pool?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)20:13 No.15017055
    What are our maximums going to be? We need that before we can determine what starting point allocations should be.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)20:13 No.15017058
    Dummio the Crash Test Hylian Knight:

    Power 2 | Wisdom 2 | Courage 3
    Physical 4 | Mental 4 | Social 2
    Blade 2 | Armour 2 | Shield 2 | Heavy 1

    I'm not sure I did that right, which is bad. There might need to be a bunch of tables...

    Sample environmental tags:

    Burn X: Fire effects destroy it in X turns.
    Crack: Can be destroyed with Smash or Explode effects.
    Switch X: Changes state of X when struck.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)20:14 No.15017067
    Ahhh, that is what you meant by the shield. Sorry, thought you meant the fin shield.

    But yeah, all the fin abilities I think work best as unique Zora weapons. The electric and/or sonic field is the MP using thing. How about a Zora can have EITHER an electric or sonic field, but not both. Each damage type of course effecting creatures different ways. So electric immune creatures like those damned jellyfish survive the electric field but can be stopped or harmed by the sonic one. Certain creatures are unharmed by the sonic field, whether or not it still blocks them, and then you get creatures that are weak to sonic attacks like in a few games.

    How does that sound?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)20:15 No.15017073
    Works for me!
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)20:15 No.15017079
    Kokiri getting a size penalty and Dekus being normal size is weird, I mean, Deku Link was fucking TINY, and adult link is a good deal bigger than a Deku. Also, what about a Deku's burrow/I AM A PLANT ability?

    Gerudo need resistance to heat/exhaustion, and a decent capacity to be lithe and agile compared to other races.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)20:16 No.15017091
    >12 points for Attributes, with slightly scaling costs (each 3rd point increases cost by 1). Minimum -2, but only 1 Attribute may be below 1.

    This sounds messy as hell, and is likely to cause negative rolls.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)20:17 No.15017097
    Unfortunately, unless someone can buy me a better internet connection, I cannot stream anymore, not until after boot camp...
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)20:18 No.15017108
    Magic songs.

    Zelda's full of magic melodies! Some of them even work on mundane instruments, though the more powerful effects require magic instruments as well.

    Magic songs are based on the Wisdom virtue and the Mental attribute. Magic songs don't have combat-related effects, so if you know the song and have a sufficiently magical instrument to play it on, you'll automatically succeed. So where does that leave the role of the virtue and the attribute?

    You could make it so that they determine the upper limit of the number of magic songs you can know at once. Alternatively, the combined scores must exceed the magicalness of the song.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)20:19 No.15017116
    Many Deku's we see are regular Hylian size though; many of hte Business Scrubs, the Deku King and Butler we see are roughly the same size as a Hylian adult, the business scrubs most notably. Kokiri are always child-sized. Deku Link was little 'cause Link was a child.

    For Deku's, burrowing is more of a terrain feature rather than an innate ability, I'd say. I mean, you can't burrow without a Deku Flower there. I suppose we could include 'Can burrow into Deku Flowers and launch for short-range, limited flight' in their description.

    For Gerudo, then.... Gerudo gain a reroll effect like Hylians do, but only for agility/based rolls, and take -1 Damage (to a minimum of 1) from Fire-based sources?
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)20:20 No.15017131
    I am not sure about Kokiri as playable, something about it just feels... off. I'm going to shut off that thing squawking in my brain about it until it can present a good reason, and I shall be totally supportive of the forest folk with the assistant fairies until such reason can be found.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)20:20 No.15017137
    Starting caps of 3 on skills, saaaaay... 5 on attributes. No starting cap on Virtues (you only have 4 points to spend anyway)

    Simon, the Crash-test Hylian Swordsman
    1 Power, 4 Courage, 1 Wisdom
    4 Physical, 0 Mental, 4 Social

    3 Blade, 2 Instrument, 1 Bow
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)20:23 No.15017167
    Heh. I was asked to do Kokiri earlier, so I'm doing it. :) Plus it makes for a good support class with high magic capability and the ability to find Weakspots.

    Okay, starting caps are good there. What about overall, 'end of game' maximums? Are the 10? 15? What is the maximum that something can be bought to?
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)20:24 No.15017172
    Most Deku are half Link's size, the business scrubs are only taller than child Link, not taller than an adult Hylian. Even a scrub of the same size would mass less than a hylian of comparable size and I figured we were using a "mass score", thus giving a goron the size of a scrub a big advantage in wrestling a scrub.

    Most full grown deku scrubs are smaller than full grown hylians, only being bigger than child link. The only thing close to a larger deku was the king scrub in Majora's Mask, and his body was closer to child link small, it was his massive overgrown bulb that was so huge.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)20:24 No.15017174
    Maybe you're right... What would you suggest instead?

    I was actually thinking that Songs (the |Instrument| skill) would be keyed to Social, not Mental. and, as with magic, you would find songs, and your skill would determine if/how well you could play them
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)20:25 No.15017188
    So let's give Scrubs a -1 to Size then, easy enough to alter. The business scrubs and king and butler looked bigger, but it has been a while since I've played Majora's Mask.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)20:27 No.15017201
    How does a cap of 7 per Virtue (not that you're EVER going to get that high), 10 per attribute (requiring serious dedication a a given attribute to get even by endgame), and 6 per skill, as a suggested earlier?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)20:28 No.15017218
    Minimum of 1 in attributes as well. Otherwise you flat out wouldn't be able to attempt a lot of relatively simple things.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)20:28 No.15017219
    Yeah, gotta practice music. Zelda's Lullaby would be a simple song anyone can learn, Bolero of Fire would take some skill, and so on. Certain songs require multiple instruments. Certain songs only work on certain instruments. Most songs work on most instruments though.
    >> TKDB 05/22/11(Sun)20:29 No.15017222
    Well, it's not too bad, but it could perhaps use a little tweaking now that I think about it. Look at how it works out for the costs to advance an attribute to a certain level:

    >-2: 0 pts
    >-1: 1 pt
    >0: 2 pts total (1 to get from -1 to 0)
    >1: 3 pts total (1 to get from 0 to 1)
    >2: 5 pts total (2 pts to get from 1 to 2)
    >3: 7 pts total (2 pts to get from 2 to 3)
    >4: 9 pts total (2 pts to get from 3 to 4)

    So you could have two attributes at 2, and one at 0. Or one at 3, one at 2, and one at -2. Or one at 4, on at 0, and one at -1...

    Yeah, the current system skews the values pretty low. And for certain combinations you run into issues with leftover points. For instance, if you put two attributes at 1, you've spent 6 points, leaving you with 6 to put into the other attribute...which is more than you need to get to 2 in that attribute, but not enough to get to 3. And you can't put the leftover point into one of the other attributes either.

    Looks like it will need some work after all. I'd try to work something out myself, but I really need to take a break from 4chan right now to study for an exam I have tomorrow morning.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)20:29 No.15017224
    Those seem fine to me; I totally missed the suggestion earlier. Sorry. :( Your starting caps seem fine also; I'd suggest then, that XP gains be small ala NWoD, 1 or 2 per session, and the costs essentially be new rating x 1 or new rating x 2 (so to go from 3 to 4 is 4 or 8 XP).
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)20:30 No.15017240
    Keep in mind, Majora's Mask is mostly played from child link's perspective. Most of the NPCs are bigger than him, of all species. Try talking to business scrubs as Mikau.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)20:38 No.15017261
         File1306111107.jpg-(1.81 MB, 2540x3165, 1300903057357.jpg)
    1.81 MB
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)20:39 No.15017279
    Kokiri are a little weird just because they're supposed to be peaceful and we never actually see them do much in the games.

    I guess you could make them good with support magic, or give them a bonus to simple ranged weapons like slingshots, but it still seems weird.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)20:40 No.15017283
    Now, size is something that's actually interesting to have negatives for. Assume your normal Hylian is Size 0. A Goron might be Size 2, a Deku Size -1, and a Kokiri Size -2. Maybe allow for a modifier for build (+1 for large, -1 for slight).
    Subtract size from some number to determine a base movement rate (in Zelda, bigger is slower, generally speaking) and stealth (need to account for possible negative rolls, maybe 1k1 is lowest it can get).
    Smaller gets pulled to bigger when hookshoting.

    What are the mechanical benefits of being bigger?
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)20:40 No.15017286
    Ok, fired up Majora's mask, standing next to a business scrub... dude is on a flower and wearing a fez, cause fezzes are cool. I cannot get on the flower but I know I am as tall as his hat as Mikau!
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)20:41 No.15017312
    Got on the flower! Mikau is not taller than the fez, but taller than the business scrub. Mikau is normal Hylian adult height.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)20:43 No.15017334
    Gah, correction! Mikau is slightly shorter than most of the adult Hylians present...
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)20:52 No.15017371
    Bigger characters are harder to knock around, more difficult to pull with a hookshot, and better and pulling things to them with a hookshot. Bigger characters are worse at hiding, and at a certain threshold, they sink in water.

    Smaller characters are easier to knock around, easier to pull with a hookshot, better at using a hookshot as transportation, better at hiding, and float easily.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)20:56 No.15017410

    You should be able to make up your own magic songs to call any horses/scarecrows/green Megazords you know.

    I think there needs to be some sort of position tracking for traps to work.
    Blocks of terrain (water, land, pit, etc.) and different sorts of connections between them (one-way, hookshot-only, etc.) seems like an interesting idea.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)21:02 No.15017486
    Oh definitely. Definitely customizable songs for your personal effects. A Hylian falconer needs a personal falcon call. A Gerudo needs a personal horse call. A Kokiri needs a personal deku scrub call AND THAT FREKKING SCRUB BETTER LISTEN! Annoying scrubs...
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)21:04 No.15017501
    I have this awesome image of Mido smacking around a Deku Scrub with a Deku Stick.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)21:04 No.15017510
    Right, add Size to knockback stuff. Both for resisting and for pushing others? Sounds good to me.

    Tossing people around will need to have some kind of effect, too. Be it simple extra damage from impact, or something relating to having to waste time moving. A matter for the detailing of combat. Definitely needs knockback, though. Very Zelda.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)21:06 No.15017526
    As if Mido needs anyone else to bully. I'd want to drag a scrub before the deku tree, aim it's sight at the face of its deity and chew it out for attacking random passers by.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)21:10 No.15017569
    Thought we were going with mass for knockback. Let's say you have a young hylian, a young goron, and an adult scrub. all the same size, but different mass. The Goron would have an advantage to pushing the hylian, and an easy time pushing the scrub. The hylian would have a disadvantage pushing the goron, and an advantage pushing the scrub. The scrub would have a disadvantage pushing the hylian, and a hard time pushing the goron.

    Contested pushing, without any weight shifting or momentum turning skills, just pure hands against each other forward pushing, the goron of similar size wins every time with the higher mass score.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)21:14 No.15017606
    Ehhh, I think it would work if we just fit mass into a general size rating. Even though your three examples are roughly the same height, the goron still has a lot more girth and volume than the scrub.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)21:14 No.15017611
    That's why instead of "Size", I had suggested that we use "Mass"

    Someone mentioned archetypes and such, so for variation how about this - a character with a 1 STARTING score in Physical has minus 1 Mass, 2-3 no change, and 4 or 5 gives plus 1 Mass. So a not-at-all physical Goron would have only 1 Mass, while a very Physical Deku Scrub would have 0.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)21:16 No.15017632
    Scrubs get pretty portly looking too. But they aren't rock, not even wood, but shrubby plant fibre.

    In an earlier thread they came up with the mass score instead of the size score and it was beautiful.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)21:18 No.15017647
    Mass, Size, it's just a name. It'll be the same thing anyway.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)21:24 No.15017695
    Scrubs are lighter than Kokiri. Elegy of Emptiness statues, remember?
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)21:25 No.15017714
    alright, swap Scrubs and Kokiri so Kokiri have -1 mass and Scrubs have -2?

    also >>15017611 switch 2-3 and 4-5 to 2-4 and 5, respectively. only the extremes of the physical scale should affect mass.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)21:30 No.15017746
    (kinda feels like I'm talking to myself, but)
    actually, maybe Power should affect Mass, instead of physical. After all, if you go Wisdom/Physical in hops of a sneaky git, you dont really want to be huge and burly. On the other hand, a Power based magic user I can still see as being relatively ginormous.

    Is anyone else still in this thread?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)21:37 No.15017809
    I'm around. I dunno, I think it would be simpler to just toss in a choice of build as well for that 1 adjustment. That way you can more easily make that range of characters there are in Zelda. Even Hylians vary pretty wildly in size. An unusually big whatever could be muscular or just fat, a small one might be short or gaunt. Yes, I've been using "Size" for it when "Mass" is more accurate (though not perfect either), but "Size" just sounds better in context.
    Power already benefits things Mass/Size benefit, no point in double dipping things like that. I mean, Power IS the virtue for tossing things around and not getting tossed around.
    >> Race and Defense Guy 05/22/11(Sun)21:39 No.15017824
    I'm here. I've just been having dinner and getting medicated. Stupid spring colds.

    I think that Size is where we're going off here. You could call it Resistance, and do the same stuff with it, perhaps?
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)21:40 No.15017831
    True, I suppose. So, in addition to Virtues/Attributes/Skills, upon creation a player also chooses to have -1/0/+1 to their Race's average Mass?
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)21:47 No.15017895
    I honestly did not expect what was so simply resolved in one thread to get so damned complicated in this thread... people forget about it for a while and when it comes back up what was easily agreed to yesterday is a point of contention today.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)21:51 No.15017933
    But we didn't agree to anything about this last thread. And it's not a contention, we're just discussing implementation.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)21:55 No.15017967
    The part that is being discussed now though is the part that no one was against earlier. Mass score, NOT size score. Size score someone brought up and nothing was decided on THAT front. Mass effects other mass, giving bonuses to throwing, knockback, what hookshots drag, et cetera.

    Next we just had to hammer out numbers, and instead we are re-explaining how mass works.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)21:58 No.15018008
    The only part I want clarification on is how/if variations in mass are decided. We seem to agree that not ALL Gorons are +2, not ALL Kokiri are -1, so how are the variations decided?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)22:00 No.15018022
    Allow someone to spend an attribute point at creation to bump it up? Or something similar?
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)22:04 No.15018040
    And is +2 and -1 enough variance? I love the way you have penalties to more mass, though, so allowing someone to select their mass, having to decide if they want to be an agile character or a heavy character, seems great.

    I wanna smack the guy that said mass and size are the same. He needs a dictionary.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)22:08 No.15018094
    another thing, a little thing, was that a friend of mine said "No one likes to be negative anything, or 0." He has a point, in that hearing "-2 Mass", you automatically assume that's a detriment, when in actuality it has positive and negative effects. I think we should do

    Deku Scrubs - 2 Mass
    Kokiri - 3 Mass
    Hylians, Zora, Gerudo - 4 Mass
    Gorons - 6 Mass

    before variations from build are applied.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)22:11 No.15018115
    I said they were the same thing here, for these purposes, in this system. I was never talking about another Size score, it's just naming. "Size" just fits better in a Zelda game than "Mass" does, is all. They're just names for something that doesn't represent either term accurately.

    And I was also the guy who said to have mass be both positive and negative, AND suggested the choosable adjustment. Just so you know.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)22:15 No.15018146
    Sure, was what I was thinking at first anyway. Just set up a table for the bonuses/penalties and it'll be all cool. We have a scale up to 7, with 4 in the middle, giving adjustments of at most 3 dice from size, at the extremes.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)22:20 No.15018187
    We may have to find effects for 7+, given that we had decided that heavier suits of armor and other items would affect Mass. For example, if a Deku Scrub wore HoverBoots, or if a Goron wore full, heavy platemail or Iron Boots.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)22:28 No.15018253
    Yeah, there is a reason for that. To have zero mass or negative mass, to have zero strength or negative strength, or any of those concepts, are all counter intuitive concepts that also imply a baseline at zero. There are many, many reasons not to like it and not to use it.

    So that second thing there, with Goron's at a mass of 6, is awesome.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/22/11(Sun)22:32 No.15018278
    >Goron in Iron Knuckle armor with Iron Boots.

    Nothing, would ever, EVER, knock him over. The ground thunders with each step. Upon his armor is emblazoned his creed...

    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)22:39 No.15018349
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    so it seems as if different races will have access to different types of magic that are dependent on their physical qualities

    is that the case?

    like, gorons can buff themselves with flaming fists, or rolling spikes and the like, zoras have different kinds of magic for swimming and generating electricity, dekus have magic bubbles that don't rely on the presence of nuts and flight

    gerudos and hylians can be "all around" spellcasters who have personal, but not racial specialties
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)22:45 No.15018400
    And there are some really big monsters around, too, so yeah.

    Well, assuming he could actually take steps... He'd be a very slowly advancing wall.

    Oh, and I just did up some small examples of a pushing contests between big, powerful deku and fairly everyday gorons (in the build and virtue regard, anyway)

    5 power 4 physical size -1
    3k5 -> 4k4

    2 power 4 physical size +2


    3 power 4 physical size -1


    1 power 4 physical size +2

    As you can see, depending on exactly how these results are used, the importance of Power here gets huge. (also depending on if unopposed dice are 50% success rate or 100% or what)

    Increments for knocking people back, maybe? In a pushing contest, loser gets pushed back the difference. If one is pushing/throwing back another who's just resisting, also pushed back difference in hits, but only if the one getting pushed loses. In a collision, both get thrown back as many hits as the opponent got.
    Okay, last one is kind of iffy, but it's a cool effect! GM adjudication on if it applies, either way.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)22:47 No.15018413
    Well... Not really. They have some racial magical thing, but that's usually just one ability. I don't see any reason to start making up a bunch of racial spells for each of them.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)22:48 No.15018425
    Maybe not racial spells, but what about spells that those races favor because they compliment their style and abilities?
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)22:51 No.15018440
    Well, that would be a logical extension of having different style spells, I guess? A flaming fists type deal might be more common with Gorons than with the weaker, more weapon-inclined races, but if one of them decided to do the Ganondorf thing he'd definitely pick it up.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/22/11(Sun)22:57 No.15018508
    How are we going to calculate movement speed? My thought was to have movement speed equal 8 minus Mass, but that would give a hefty Goron a measly little 1 movement. Though, my thought re: rolling was that a Rolling Goron used his Mass as his movement speed, to show that it was a momentum-based movement. Thoughts on this? (Though I'm going to have to duck out for a bit; have things to do)
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)23:03 No.15018562
    Well, simple answer. Apply the modifiers instead. Using 8 as the base number, we get fat Gorons at 5 and slight Dekus at 11. Base movement 10 gives 7 and 13, slightly less than twice as opposed to slightly more. You guys figure out what it represents and what number is good, I need to sleep a bit.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)23:17 No.15018707
    X minus Mass for speed seems like a good system, but I think the value of X needs to come from playtesting and whatnot.
    >> Anonymous 05/22/11(Sun)23:59 No.15019137
    rolled 33 = 33

    It makes sense for Gorons to have flaming spells like that.
    What are they nearly immune to? Fire. So they wreathe themselves in it because nearly everything else in the world is hurt by it and they aren't.
    Zora conduct electricity because, ages ago when they were simple hunters, it allowed them to kill their prey quickly and efficiently. Kokiri know healing and travel magics because they never knew war, and thus have no need for anything that doesn't mend a broken bone or teleport you home when you get lost in the forest.
    I can see Gerudo as being proficient in Ice magic. You get the ice arrow from then in OoT, everything in the desert heat should be fire-based and weak to cold, and it helps them keep their homes regulated (magic ice blocks so they don't have to sweat all the time).
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)00:01 No.15019163
    Maybe they'd ADD their modifier instead of subtracting it. Darmani was crazy fast while rolling, even without spikes, and he was probably more massive than your average Goron, too.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)00:04 No.15019193
    I think this should be based on their Power/Wisdom/Courage scores. If they have 4 points to distribute, one is going to be higher than the rest, no matter what. So... Maybe Power gives an extra Mass point, Courage keeps it normal, and Wisdom lowers it by one?
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)00:13 No.15019278
    Oh no, I just joined this thread after reading it (and the other two) on my phone... AND NOW IT'S DYING.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/23/11(Mon)00:19 No.15019328
    Darmani only seemed slightly more massive than the average Goron. He also was a Goron racer and would best be statted as having put skill points into rolling.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)00:33 No.15019481
    So we need to have Race as an actual skill then.
    Points in it should add to that race's stereotype, like they were saying before.

    Gorons could gain +1 to speed while rolling for every point, and maybe learn the Goron Pound and the spikes this way, too.
    Zoras increase the max amount of damage they can deal with their Electric Shield, at the expense of more magic power.
    Deku Scrubs' magic bubbles may hurt more, and they can fire Deku Nuts with impressive force as well.
    Gerudo gain the ability to defend with two weapons better, becoming able to parry missiles and even magic with their weapons (works even for a magic-user or heavy character, not just twin-blades)
    Kokiri could... hm... gain a dodge bonus, maybe, to reflect their agile and pacifistic natures? Not too sure on them. Maybe someone else should take the wheel on them.
    Hylians could gain better ability with items they normally can't use. Link was swinging around that Megaton Hammer JUST fine the moment he picked it up for the first time. Could allow a Hylian to be an even better Generalist.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/23/11(Mon)00:37 No.15019517
    This could work. A Power based character is bound to be big and burly, and the reverse for Wisdom. Sounds good.

    Alright, for movement speeds, looks like its 12 minus Mass (A fat Goron having Mass 7, giving it movement 5, and a scrawny Deku having Mass 1, giving it movement 11). Exceptions to this: Gerudo get an untyped +2 to movement speed, Gorons use Mass + 3 for Rolling speed ( take a look at Hot Rod Rolling Goron from OoT, or the goron's roll from TP. they're fast, but not even close to the fastest things in the game.), and Zoras gain +3 speed while swimming. This cool with everyone?
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/23/11(Mon)00:44 No.15019572
    That is just silly. Skills should be skills. Link should not be the basis for all Hylians, he is an exceptional hero. And with the way the gameplay worked, his skill was also the player's skill. It's possible for a person to play and suck at certain tasks, having to redo it again and again, essentially having a Link that spends 10 bombs on a puzzle that only contains one, and spends forever fighting Dark Link because he sucks at using any of the weapons Dark Link is weak against.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/23/11(Mon)00:52 No.15019645
    Zelda being an obvious wisdom based character was not less massive than other Hylians, though. And generally more powerful people don't increase mass very much, and sometimes merely focus mass.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/23/11(Mon)00:58 No.15019695
    >Zelda being an obvious wisdom based character was not less massive than other Hylians, though.
    Well, that's an odd statement, because looking at her physical frame, it seems obvious that she weighs a good deal less than Link, the obvious courage base character, and WAY less than Ganondorf, the obvious Power based character.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/23/11(Mon)00:59 No.15019705
    Derp, "It's an odd statement" depending on what you mean by "massive"
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/23/11(Mon)01:02 No.15019739
    How about this, she is not less massive by having more wisdom. Her mass remains at a Hylian average. So decreasing mass for higher wisdom scores would make playing certain characters impossible.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/23/11(Mon)01:02 No.15019740
    As another example, look at the Twilight Princess Goron Elders, obviously Wisdom, and considerably smaller than your average Goron. Darbus, however, being ALL POWER ALL THE TIME, was a solid 2 feet taller than any other Goron.

    other examples would be both the Zora King from OoT and the Deku King from MM, who could be argued to be Power/Social based characters (because king), and they were both bigger than average for their race.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/23/11(Mon)01:04 No.15019757
    Not sure if being fat counts as being more powerful. And The wisdom based characters you named were also oooooooold, which is what happened to their mass.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/23/11(Mon)01:04 No.15019759
    Then should we make the deviations in mass available to the player upon creation? You're pointing out what's wrong with my suggestions, but I'm not hearing any from you. (at least on this particular issue, mind you. You've been loads of help elsewhere.)
    >> Sir Scribe 05/23/11(Mon)01:07 No.15019780
    re: Zora king being a tub of lard. Think of it this way: Power/Social is largely intimidation/steadfast demands, and a big guy is more daunting than a small guy.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/23/11(Mon)01:14 No.15019848
    Yeah, i liked the idea of choosing ones mass at character creation, along with all the penalties and bonuses it confers. Part of the reason I wasn't suggesting anything, the idea I support was already given here, sorry for the miscommunication.

    Yeah, choosing your mass seems to be the best option, with your mass defaulting at your species average, and then you adjust it up or down however much. This will make for probably a lot of trimmed down sheikah and bulked up Gorons, but I would expect as much from hero characters attempting to get the most out of their abilities.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)01:14 No.15019853
    Yes, that would be best. Or give them a chance to increase in mass after a number of experience boosts.

    Why not just have a mass modifier directly coordinated to power? Or strength? Once someone gets to a certain point, their bulk increases from sheer muscle and imposing-ness.

    Alternatively, one with low Strength or Power might get a hit toward mass. Perhaps if one Majors in Wisdom/Intelligence, and ignore Power and Strength, then they take a mass hit?
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/23/11(Mon)01:17 No.15019874
    Really, really... Zora king was more intimidating...

    "mweep, mweep, mweep, mweep, mweep, all of hyrule's water passes under my ass and balls, mweep, mweep, mweep, mweep, mweep..."
    >> Sir Scribe 05/23/11(Mon)01:20 No.15019896
    Oh you know what I mean. The man (fish) had Power. Maybe not Physical, maybe not Mental, but he had Political (Social) Power. The fact that he dipped his balls in all of Hyrule's water and no one called him out on it is evidence of that.

    ANYWAY, I'm fine with letting players choose their Mass deviation, and all the pros/cons that come with it.

    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/23/11(Mon)01:22 No.15019920
    In all fairness, pretty sure the Hylians boiled and filtered their water like the romans with the aqueducts, since the entire Zora kingdom had their entire bodies in it. So his ass and balls made little difference.

    >> Sir Scribe 05/23/11(Mon)01:28 No.15019970
    Ok, getting back on topic now.

    Actually, it kinda looks like we're almost the only 2 left in this thread, and I'm going to bed soon.

    In the meantime, thanks so much for all of your contributions so far. I hope you will all continue to support this project!

    Now, it seems like we've pretty much got character creation covered. I suppose the next thing to move onto is skills, and what abilities having sufficient levels in a skill grants. earlier in >>15016877 I suggested that For skills, let's institute a maximum of 6 or so, which depicts near-absolute mastery with that type of item. Perhaps every even number grants a new ability. Additionally, some items have their own levels, and can only be used by someone of sufficient skill. some basic items would be level 1, so just basic knowledge is needed to apply the item, while things like the Gilded Sword, or Mirror Shield, or Fire Rod have higher levels.

    Sound ok to you?
    >> Library Lass 05/23/11(Mon)01:30 No.15019994
    Seems a good start. I haven't been contributing much this thread, but that's more because I don't have strong feelings about the mass debate.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)01:30 No.15019996
    I would say start with the average mass (Hylians, Zora, Gerudo: 4) and assign to them the average movement rate (let's say 6) and then everyone else's movement rate is adjusted inversely proportional to their difference in mass from the average.
    So we get:
    Deku Scrubs - 2 Mass, 8 Movement
    Kokiri - 3 Mass, 7 Movement
    Hylians, Zora, Gerudo - 4 Mass, 6 Movement
    Gorons - 6 Mass, 4 Movement

    I think this seems fair.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/23/11(Mon)01:36 No.15020065
    Oh hey, it's Library Lass!

    I thought this had been resolved...

    First off, what abilities come with levels. Let's start with Blades.

    level 2 - Spin attack (strike all adjacent enemies), level 4 - Ending Blow (Instantly Kill a stunned enemy), level 6 - Sword beam? use a sword as a ranged weapon?
    >> Sir Scribe 05/23/11(Mon)01:37 No.15020075
    Second thoughts, ending blow is overpowered. Swap for that rolly hit-from-behind thing?
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)01:52 No.15020235
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    right, so hylians and gerudos should have spikes magically grow out of them when they roll as well
    >> Sir Scribe 05/23/11(Mon)01:55 No.15020271
    Ok, Self bump in the guise of progress.

    for abilities granted by 2/4/6 ranks in a skill -

    Blade - Spin Attack, Backslash, Sword Beam
    Armor - Ignore flinching, Resist Knockback, Armored Momentum (gain movement instead of losing it for heavy armor)
    Bomb - Craft bomb, ???, shaped explosion (Can make non-friendly-fire bombs)
    Shield - Shield Bash, Deflect Projectile, Perfect Guard (able to defend with a shield and attack in the same turn)
    Heavy - Staggering Blow (knock enemies back on a hit), Iron Grip (use a heavy weapon one-handed), Worldbreaker (heavy weapons do explosive damage and gain bonuses to break objects and armor)

    that's all I can think of for now. anyone else?
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)02:04 No.15020349
    I would go with Ending Blow for level 6 sword. It deals massive damage but only works on enemies who are knocked prone.
    >> Library Lass 05/23/11(Mon)02:04 No.15020351
    I'd make Craft Bomb higher-level. Being able to use the bomb at all might take training. Oh, or perhaps using cannons, ala Wind Waker. Or Bomb arrows? I dunno man.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/23/11(Mon)02:07 No.15020383
    Bombs - Combination Bomb(turning existing bombs + arrows into bomb arrows, or rigging bombs to be fired from a cannon), Craft Bomb, Shaped Explosion?

    Sounds good to me.
    >> Library Lass 05/23/11(Mon)02:14 No.15020433
    There you go.
    As to sword beam it might just be an item property.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/23/11(Mon)02:20 No.15020489
    Any ideas for the other skills? I thought maybe things like Trick shots and Sniping for the Bow, but wasnt sure how to implement them.

    Tool also eludes me.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)02:25 No.15020526
    For bow, perhaps-

    Move while firing / Something about moving targets / Snipe?

    Where snipe is a bonus to hit some part, or allows you to hit some part, or a range increase? Not too sure.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)02:28 No.15020551
    Tool - Quick Use (Can use as a standard/partial/as part of your turn, even if it normally requires standing still), Dual Wield (For dual boomerangs or Dual Hookshot shennanigans), not sure about the top-tier ability.
    The first was inspired by when I used the Hookshot while running away from a boulder in the Spirit Temple using Z-Targeting. Really hard to aim the sucker while on the run.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/23/11(Mon)02:33 No.15020593
    Quick use sounds good to me. For a top tier... How about "Improvisation"? Can build any level 1 Tool using random scraps and 1 turn of prep time.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)02:34 No.15020602
    Oh wow.
    MacGuyver? In MY Zelda game?
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)02:36 No.15020614
    it's more likely than you think
    >> Sir Scribe 05/23/11(Mon)02:39 No.15020630
    It's more likely than you think.

    For bows, how about Strafing Shot (No penalties for movement), Improved Range, and Headshot (automatically deal maximum number of Successes to an unaware enemy)
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)02:45 No.15020681
    Rod - Efficiency (Costs half magic to use, minimum 1 point), Rod Bash (Use as a 1 heart weapon, can activate the rod on a hit for triple cost to use it's effect, if applicable), Dual use (Can use a rod twice in one round)
    Magic - Extension (Double length of all spells with a duration), Great Fairy's Gift (Double your magic points), Enlarge (Double radius or the number of targets of all spells with more than one target)
    >> Sir Scribe 05/23/11(Mon)02:48 No.15020708

    Stealth - Withdrawal (stealth role to hide after making an attack), Perfect Sneak (counts as invisible while sneaking), Assassination (Attacking while hiding does not reveal your location)

    That just leaves Instrument. Any revisions to make on what we have?
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)02:53 No.15020740
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    >> Sir Scribe 05/23/11(Mon)02:54 No.15020749

    >> Sir Scribe 05/23/11(Mon)02:55 No.15020759
    On that note, time for my daily coma. Adieu, /tg/. Hope this thread continues to live and be prosperous!
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)03:01 No.15020785
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)03:22 No.15020905
    Guy who came up with the item names here.

    Totally wanna play a Courage-Physical Hylian Palace Guard. Under the current rules, he'd probably have:
    Power 2, Wisdom 2, Courage 3
    Physical 4, Mental 2, Social 2
    Blade 3, Shield 3, Armor 2, Tool 2
    Did I get the points right?
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)03:27 No.15020934
    item powers, I mean.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)03:32 No.15020966
    We should define how instruments work a bit better before coming up with abilities for them.

    Obviously you play songs with them and they have effects. I'd guess all of the songs from the zelda games would probably be included, from Song of time, to Wind God's aria, to Ballad of the Windfish.

    Here's what some might do (in plain terms rather than gameplay terms.) How and to what extent these work would depend on when you're able to learn them, to be balanced and the like. Some songs might only work with certain instrument types.

    Bolero of Fire - Manipulate Fire.
    Scerenade of Water - Manipulate Water.
    Minuet of Forest - Manipulate the roots of trees.
    Requiem of Spirit - Speak to/summon the dead.
    Nocturne of Shadow - Create illusions.
    Prelude of Light - Illuminate dark places.

    Song of Time - Manipulate the flow of time. (Only works on an Ocarina)
    Song of Storms - Summon a storm.
    Sun's Song (aka Song of Passing) - Changes between day and night. (Doesn't actually manipulate time, just the location of the sun.)
    Zelda's Lullaby - A key to entering some areas sealed off by the royal family.
    Ballad of the Windfish (aka Song of Awakening, aka Sonata of Awakening) - Wakes up anyone/anything sleeping nearby.
    Song of Healing - Heals the spirits of the dead, with the potential to turn them into a mask.
    Song of Soaring - Allows you to warp to a location with an owl statue. (Or maybe anywhere you've been, depending on how high level a song it would be)
    Goron's Lullaby - Puts gorons who hear it to sleep.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)03:32 No.15020971
    and some more

    Farewell to Gibdos - Wards away Gibdos.
    Melody of Darkness - Drains the life force from someone as you play it.

    Tune of Ages - Something to do with time travel?

    Wind's Requiem - Change the direction of the wind.
    Ballad of Gales - Summon a cyclone for a wind attack

    Command Melody - Take control of a willing creature.
    Oath to Order - Summon four giants for an ultimate attack.

    Some of them would obviously have to be balanced or changed though.
    >> Library Lass 05/23/11(Mon)03:35 No.15020993
    >Some of them would obviously have to be balanced or changed though.
    Rather substantially, I think. Keep this alive til tomorrow afternoon.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)03:38 No.15021012
    Link was able to play the Song of Time on pipes, drums, and a guitar. I'd say it must be any magical instrument.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)03:44 No.15021053
    It'd be cool if each song had 3 levels of mastery, with 3 different effects. The abilities would stack, so at level 3, you could use any of them. And most songs would be difficult to master, so the Level 3 effects would be like the epic tier broken wizard spells in DnD. What level of mastery you play the song at would depend on your instrument skill. All the songs would have different skill requirements for their mastery levels.

    Like for the song of time,
    Level 1 (need instrument level 2) - Cause things with the emblem of the Door of Time to react in some way.
    Level 2 (need instrument level 4) - Slow down time, raising your speed and dodging capability.
    Level 3 (need instrument level 10) - Go back in time 72 hours.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)03:46 No.15021066
    Correction, I didn't mean EVERY spell, but some spells.

    Some would just have one effect, and a required skill level to play the song. Maybe some would have 2 levels as well. It wouldn't have to be limited to 3.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)04:01 No.15021151
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    > mfw /tg/ gets shit done

    every board on 4chan is in chaos while /tg/ is halfway to building a completely playable rpg from scratch. Again. Every other board can suck it.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)04:06 No.15021185
    And this is why I still come here.

    So... what other stuff needs done? Item lists and a template for them?
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)04:17 No.15021278
    And since I have nothing better to do, I'll do some more. Pretty much all the numbers are tentative, really.

    Song of Healing
    1 (Requires Instrument level 2) - Grants peace to the dead, giving you a bonus to diplomacy against poes.
    2 (Requires Instrument level 3) - Heals an ally for 3k2 hearts.

    Song of Soaring
    1 (Requires Instrument level 5) - You sprout glowing wings and can fly a short distance.
    2 (Requires Instrument level 8) - You can warp to any outdoor area you've visited before. This can only be used outdoors.

    Command Melody
    1 (Requires Instrument Level 1) - You take control of a willing creature, allowing them to act during your turn.
    2 (Requires Instrument Level 6) - You take control of an enemy for one turn.

    Song of Storms
    1 (Requires Instrument Level 1) - You cause it to rain.
    2 (Requires Instrument Level 3) - You summon a lightning storm.
    3 (Requires Instrument Level 8) - You summon a fierce hurricane.

    Tune of Ages
    1 (Requires Instrument Level 3) - You can activate dormant portals with certain markings on them.
    2 (Requires Instrument Level 6) - You send a target hurdling through time.
    2 (Requires Instrument Level 10) - You can create a portal to a random time. Your location will stay the same, and the portal will stay open until you enter it again to return to your own time.

    I didn't do any of the attack-ish ones because I'm not really sure what kind of scale would make sense for the numbers.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)04:19 No.15021295
    that and a definitive and concise summary of character creation would be nice. Other than that we're well on our way to being able to assemble a pretty solid PDF of this thing.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)04:21 No.15021310
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    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)07:02 No.15022391
    bump before sleep
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)07:49 No.15022691
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    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)07:57 No.15022731
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    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)09:35 No.15023116
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)10:25 No.15023307
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    Bumping with awesome.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)10:31 No.15023330

    So, this pic bothers me. It's obviously laid out in this higher -> lesser being, light -> dark order (goddesses > sages > triforce bearers > spirits > mortals > demons > the dead)... so what are the giants doing down there with the demons?

    Surely they should be up there with the fairies and the windfish or something?

    Fucking awesome apart from that though.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)10:34 No.15023347

    Musicians will be this game's equivalent of DnD's wizards. I'm calling this shit now.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)10:34 No.15023350
    those giants are creepy as fuck

    i don't care what anyone says, they are pure evil
    >> Sir Scribe 05/23/11(Mon)10:43 No.15023394
    Sorry, but I thought it had been decided that the maximum level for a skill was 6.

    Should we raise that cap, or just for Instruments?
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)11:08 No.15023532
    this is wrong by the way.

    the bulk of hyrule's water supply flows out of zora's fountain down the western waterfall that passes in front of the entrance to zora's domain. the water inside of zora's domain is tainted by king zora's taint, but that's it.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)11:09 No.15023546
    That, or use the Level 6 cap and make skill progression slower somehow.

    I liked the suggestion from >>15020966 about using some songs to "control" various elements. Maybe those options need fleshing out? I think they would work best as transportation/ movement aids, such as cooling lava to walk across or creating short "tunnels" of wind (to glide on with a leaf or similar tool.) Might allow for more creative puzzle solutions.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)11:10 No.15023554
         File1306163425.jpg-(50 KB, 294x300, Map_ZorasFountainFrozen.jpg)
    50 KB
    forgot my image
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)11:33 No.15023743
    I thought I'd try to summarize character creation, but we need to settle on minimums for attributes, points for them and skills, and if their costs increase.

    I don't think 0 attributes and negative ones are a good idea. We haven't even developed mechanics to take that into account! With the 1 minimum for attributes and virtues, we get a 1k1 roll for your weakest things. You can still attempt things, but only the simplest you can expect to succeed reliably on.

    Also, with 4 points to distribute among virtues, you could pour them all into one for a 5 1 1 split. Is that acceptable? My kneejerk reaction says no. Cap it at 4 (for character creation) and we get possible distributions of 4 2 1, 3 3 1, 3 2 2. Capping at 3 gives 3 3 1 and 3 2 2, which could be kind of boring. If we only gave 3 points with a 3 cap we get 3 2 1 and 2 2 2.
    I suggest a 4 maximum with 4 points as a default. Adjust for power level if you want a higher or lower power campaign (suggesting cap = points available as a guideline for that).

    Okay, having some ideas. I'll get them in the next post.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)11:44 No.15023821

    Virtues: All start at 1, 4 points to distribute 1-for-1, maximum of 4.

    Attributes: All start at 1, 5 points to distribute 1-for-1, maximum of 4.

    Skills: All start at 0, 6 points to spend (?), cost per point going up by 1 every odd number, as such:
    Skill Total cost
    0 0
    1 1
    2 2
    3 4
    4 6
    5 9
    6 12

    Hell, I dunno if this is a good idea, but it encourages some spreading out at character creation while still allowing you to go autistic on one field.

    The reason for no scaling costs for virtues and attributes is simple, there are too few of them for the math to work out. Either you go with some certain spreads, or you waste points. Which sucks. Skills are plentiful enough that it isn't a problem.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)12:18 No.15024104
    What does a 0 in a skill mean, then? Can you not use that skill at all?
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)12:30 No.15024213
    Essentially, you know jack shit about it. You can still attempt it (most of them, anyway), but you're just rolling with the most basic of your own abilities. It's the difference between knowing a modicum of sword-fighting and waving around a sharpened metal club.

    I'm slightly concerned about how large potential dice pools have grown, but if we hadn't put some stops in before it'd be far worse. Steal from Alderac's roll and keep some more and say that when you would roll more than a certain amount of dice, you add excess ones to kept dice instead?
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)12:48 No.15024359
    I liked the idea in the older thread about how the minimum possible health a character could have at the start of the game is 3 hearts.

    Need to think of advancement.... Is this still being discussed somewhere? I haven't really participated but would like to.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)12:58 No.15024444

    Songs that control elements might invalidate items that have limited control over elements (Gust Jar, Fire/Ice Arrows, etc.).
    Something to watch out for.

    You can still use it, but you'd be using swords like clubs and shooting arrows off in weird directions.

    What if instead of Social, you have Spiritual? Although I can't think of any uses for Spiritual that Social can't cover except for becoming a spirit when you die.
    There are quite a few spirits in the Zelda games, though.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)13:04 No.15024495
    What's the use of Spiritual, then?
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)13:05 No.15024501
    Just remember that the games already contain multiple sources of that stuff (primarily fire) what with Lanterns, Fire Arrows, the magic Din's Fire, and the Fire Rod. I think it'd be fine to allow people the ability to dick with elements/the environment via multiple paths so they're not forced to pick one specific thing.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)13:09 No.15024533
    I think songs should have exactly one, highly specific function. Nothing more complicated than the Song of Soaring.

    The Bolero of Fire doesn't manipulate fire; it warps you to Death Mountain Crater. Dig?
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)13:11 No.15024543

    What if everyone started off with 3 Hearts, you can have a maximum of (3+Courage+Physical) Hearts and gaining more Hearts happens fairly quickly? That could be interesting.
    Or horrible and annoying...

    Physical, Mental, Social = Body, Mind, Chatting?
    Physical, Mental, Spiritual = Body, Mind, Soul.

    Spiritual could also cover religious stuff better than Social, I guess.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)13:12 No.15024546
    Same person as this.

    What if you want a song to manipulate fire? Better invent one. This song makes all fires in the immediate vicinity burn brighter. This other one extinguishes them, but not if they're too big.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)13:13 No.15024555
    What if the song enhanced elementary abilities?

    For example, Bolero of Fire increasing the damage of fire arrows and area of effect for DIn's Fire.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)13:14 No.15024563
    I like this idea. Those sorts of songs could be used as bard-style buffs.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)13:15 No.15024573
    Yeah, but that has limited usefulness. Why bother warping when you can walk there? Unless your GM is a huge jerk, getting from places you've been before overland shouldn't be as tedious or dangerous as in the games.

    Maybe as a compromise, give each song a single function, but include are plenty of them with useful effects?
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)13:16 No.15024577
    I would be cautious of straying from effects that are too far from the games' precedents.

    I propose this rule of thumb: if it could be used for combat, make it a potion, not a song. You're not gonna be whipping out your fishbone guitar in the middle of a swordfight so you can power up your Force Lightning. Use a bottle of Old Man Fisherby's Electric Eel Stew.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)13:23 No.15024648
    >getting from places you've been before overland shouldn't be as tedious or dangerous as in the games.

    Why shouldn't it be? Having to fight through a dozen tektites, climb a mountain and avoid getting crushed by falling flaming rocks was among the most fun things about the games.

    And if the party REALLY wants to avoid this type of stuff, they could just warp to the top using a song.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)13:56 No.15024923
    music seems like it's starting to get overpowered. I think we need to reign in its uses to much more specific things, like what you see in the games.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)13:57 No.15024934
    agreed, thats a major part of the game

    agreed 110%. Music's use in combat should be negligible if anything. That's a lot more in keeping with the source material anyway.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/23/11(Mon)13:59 No.15024947
    I would have it that, just like in the games, you have to get there that usual way first, and then depending you might be able to learn a song that warps you there.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/23/11(Mon)14:03 No.15024975
    One song, one effect, even if you find multiple uses for said effect.

    Like the sun song, it only did one thing technically, but look at how many situations it fit into.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)14:05 No.15024988
    yeah, i think that works a hell of a lot better. Even if the song only does one thing, you're still going to find tons of uses for it.

    also, puzzles are going to have to be a huge part of the game, right?
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)14:08 No.15025006
    Up to the GM to decide. I have no interest in forcing adventure design on people.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)14:12 No.15025032
    The concern im having is that the game is going to end up being a generic fantasy roleplaying system that just happens to be set in the Zelda universe, as opposed to being a real Zelda RPG. So far most of the system seems in keeping with the feel of the games, but its still something for everyone to keep an eye on.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/23/11(Mon)14:13 No.15025045
    You know it, a big part of the game will be puzzles and sidequests. If you've seen me stream playing the Games, OoT, MM, WW, and TP, then you know my take on the puzzles and side quests.

    The puzzles are not arbitrary. they get called arbitrary, but it's not like "suddenly a crossword puzzle or you can't unlock the door" like in a Bioware game. If you look carefully, you'll realize that places like the water temple are a waterworks, meant to be operated by a crew of zora. Or the shadow temple was a place of industrialized necromancy for the bloody total war of Hylia's past. But now, with centuries past and the stuff half broken and one man alone without the equipment to operate the place, it's become a puzzle.

    The sidequests are never arbitrary either. People genuinely need your help. You ARE the only one available to catch the chickens. You do have time to play a game or you wouldn't be dicking around on this farm. You, with the horse, totally can deliver the frog on time. And if not you, then who? No arbitrary boar pelt quests or milk deliveries, but actual chores, missions, or games specifically to waste time with.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)14:19 No.15025079
    I always though of the temples as having been just that: temples. The puzzles are only puzzles to Link because he doesn't know the complex religious ritual that the ancient Zora priests used to unlock the door, or whatever.

    In any case, the puzzles are an incredibly important part of maintaining a zelda-esque feel as opposed to being DnD in Hyrule. They're not mandatory if a DM doesn't feel like using them, but if we're making a PDF for the game we should definitely include a section on puzzle design for the GM.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)14:22 No.15025100
    But how do we know every game will take place in hyrule? It's like putting in a skill in DnD that warps you to a certain city in Eberron. It'd be useless for most people.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/23/11(Mon)14:23 No.15025110
    I agree on that, the places being temples and having religious significance to the people using them. That gets into fluff territory more than game functionality, but we are totally on the same page.

    Aye, a section on puzzle design, some pre-made puzzles, and puzzle tables. And nothing wrong with taking puzzles right out of the game. Taking puzzles right out of the game may be where we have to start. The differences between puzzles in Regular OoT and Master Quest can provide incredible insight on puzzle design as well.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)14:24 No.15025116
    true, but then again the song just wouldnt exist in a game set in a different place. It doesn't exist in the other games in the series, why should it exist in the RPG?
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)14:26 No.15025129
    I'm glad im not the only one who thinks the puzzles are essential, but that's still pretty far in the future. Its not even something that would be included in a core rulebook, more of a thing for a DM's guide.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)14:27 No.15025137
    For the warp songs, perhaps they teleport you to a certain location for each different area/region/whatever? For example, if you're in Termina and play the Minute of Forest, instead of teleporting to the Lost Woods you get sent to somewhere deep in Woodfall?
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)14:27 No.15025140
    You could make it so that an early skill for Instrument players is something like "Time dilation" which makes it so that you can play any song instantly. Time freezes when you play your instrument, like in the games.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/23/11(Mon)14:28 No.15025154
    The RPG covers the whole of the setting, so it exists because death mountain crater exists, even if you never go there and never learn it yourself.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)14:30 No.15025174
    If your setting doesn't have a Fire Temple, then obviously you wouldn't be learning no Bolero of Fire. Warp songs are a part of the setting, not a part of the system; let the DM come up with his own.

    Why would you ever need that, unless you were playing the songs in combat, which would be pointless?
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)14:31 No.15025177
    Unless you're playing these songs on magical instruments, they mostly wouldn't have the same/as much of an effect. For truly reliable, instant teleportation like in the games, you'll need a unique artifact like the Ocarina of Time, which is something entire campaigns could be set around getting.

    Mind you, that isn't to say playing the Bolero of Fire wouldn't demoralize a band of goblins or help morale in ways not easily explained, but instant transportation? You'd better have a lot of factors in your favour for that sort of divine help.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)14:32 No.15025180
    yes, but songs don't really have combat effects in the games. That's what im trying to caution us away from. Songs should be useful, and powerful and effective, but they should not be able to blast enemies with fire or something.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)14:33 No.15025189
    Playing songs in combat was the point. I liked the idea of some songs buffing stats like a bard, and you'd want to do that during combat.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/23/11(Mon)14:37 No.15025212
    Nah, I like the idea of being a bit more realistic than the games (as the games slide to more and more realism anyway) and having that pressure as whatever is bearing down and you have to play the tune for whatever effect it has. If you can really play, 6 to 8 notes shouldn't be too much trouble.

    The main reason for the time pause in the games was due to the fact that you're not really there, you don't have a guitar, and realistically portraying that, especially when what you really have is a controller in your hand, would be next to impossible. Allowances have to be made in videogames for the limits of the man-machine interface. In RPGs, you can just describe what is happening.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)14:40 No.15025229
    well there could be songs that require a special Instrument and songs that don't

    if i remember correctly Link used a normal Ocarina before obtaining the Ocarina of Time
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)14:41 No.15025235
    This makes the most sense.

    I think maybe each instrument would have its own set of songs. Some songs would do different things on different instruments.

    But the songs would be included in the item description, rather than being their own unique thing. If you got the Ocarina of time, you could play the song of time with it, but that would be a legendary artifact that you'd have a bitch of a time obtaining.

    And of course, you could "play" any song on any instrument, but I meant they would only have effects on certain ones.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)14:41 No.15025240
    Still something made from wood of an enchanted forest, by a Sage, and magical in its own right (communication)...
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)14:42 No.15025245
    That was a fairy ocarina. It was still magical, just less magical.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/23/11(Mon)14:45 No.15025264
    Earlier in this very thread we agreed most songs work on most instruments. Some songs only work on some instruments. Some songs only work on one kind of instrument. Some songs only work on a specific, unique instrument, like the Ocarina of Time with the Song of Time. And some songs require multiple instruments, like the Ballad of the Wind fish and a few others from various games.

    A Koholint Island game would have a party basically trying to put together a band to awaken the wind fish.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)14:46 No.15025278
    You'd need a magic instrument and sufficient numbers in the appropriate stats to play it. Maybe set it up so the magic instrument gives you a gigantic bonus to your ability to play magic songs.

    Warp songs are just one effect. There are also simpler ones like the Sun's Song (the party rapidly travels forward through time to the next sunrise or sunset unless interrupted) or Saria's Song (a specific example of a general type: communicate telepathically with the person who wrote the song).

    Songs are a very mystical, flavorful thing, and care must be taken to prevent them from being used for cheesy things. Take the communication song example above. Let's say it only works if you're using it to contact the person who taught you the song, like the act of teaching the song was an important (if rather informal) part of the ritual. It's not that the melody is specifically magical, but that there is a certain magic to all songs, and those who are particularly Wise and Spiritual can tap into that magic.

    Music can carry memories and feelings, and those memories and feelings can be made real. A peaceful song can heal weary souls (Song of Healing), or a troubled and driving melody can darken the sky (Song of Storms). A song can prove your feelings of loyalty (Zelda's Lullaby). Shared memories of music reconnects you with old friends (Saria's Song), and a song written to mark a memorable occasion can even return you - or others - to its location (Ocarina of Time's warp songs). A song that that makes you feel as wistful as the wind might also give you the wind's speed (Zelda 1's magic flute).

    Basically, hippie shit.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)14:51 No.15025310
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)14:51 No.15025311
    I like the part about specific songs requiring specific instruments. The song might be magic, but maybe it's only PART of the magic, and the rest is contained in the instrument.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)15:01 No.15025388
    Man, you sound like Shiek and Impa...

    Are you a Shiekah?
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)15:06 No.15025432
    thats not bad from a mechanics standpoint, but looking at it in terms of the source material it doesn't really fit. Link doesn't get stat buffs from songs, and he doesn't use them in combat. If we're trying to keep a Zelda feel then we keep songs out of combat.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)15:08 No.15025450
    I am an owl.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/23/11(Mon)15:10 No.15025474
    He does use some songs "in combat" but that's usually because the song has a specific effect and beating the boss is part of a puzzle.

    In other words, agreeing with your point and expanding on it. No bard style stat buffs, this is not re-skinned D&D. This is Zelda.

    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)15:30 No.15025646
    I don't actually have anything to contribute, so I just dropped in to tell you guys to keep up the good work. I am liking this very much so far. You've made a single nameless, faceless anon proud to be a fa/tg/uy.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)15:32 No.15025658
    exactly. The song may do something to the environment which may in turn deal damage to something, but it shouldnt make fire shoot out of your Ocarina and it shouldnt give stat buffs.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)15:41 No.15025745
    I was thinking it could manipulate elements slowly, as to open a gap in a wall of fire, or grow vines over a wall to make it climbable. Of course, the song needs to be played constantly to keep the effect going.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)15:43 No.15025759
    If you want to open a gap in a wall of fire, push a block in the middle of it. Or cut off the gas line. Or dump water from the ceiling. Or press the fure-turn-off switch (it is rusty so you need something that hits with a certain amount of force) on the far side of the room, and fucking book it.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)15:45 No.15025785
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)16:12 No.15025991
    >>15023821 again

    Looking over the numbers, I'm not sure how many points to distribute on attributes should be given. I'm assuming the 4 maximum at creation.

    Possible distributions with 5 points:
    4 2 2
    3 3 2
    4 3 1

    Possible distributions with 4 points:
    4 2 1
    3 3 1
    3 2 2

    And just for the hell of it, 6 points:
    4 4 1
    4 3 2
    3 3 3

    I'm not sure what seems preferable between 5 and 4 points. I don't like 6, it appears to just inflate things more.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)16:20 No.15026070
    My take on the songs:

    Bolero of Fire: Warp to world's fire-themed dungeon
    Serenade of Water: Warp to world's water-themed dungeon
    Minuet of Forest: Warp to world's forest-themed dungeon
    Requiem of Spirit: Warp to world's desert-themed dungeon
    Nocturne of Shadow: Warp to world's dark-themed dungeon
    Prelude of Light: Warp to world's non-dungeon temple (Temple of Time, for example)
    Song of Time: Screw with time (magic Ocarina only).
    Song of Storms: Brings down the rain.
    Sun's Song: Chnages day to night (magic instruments only)
    Zelda's Lullaby: Opens and activates things.
    Song of Healing: Heals spirits, removes cruses, makes masks.
    Saria's Song: Communication with certain individual.
    Epona's Song: Tame animal/summon familiar.
    Wind's Requiem: Changes wind flow and strength.
    Command Melody - Take control of certain person/object.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)16:29 No.15026144
    >Song of Storms: Brings down the rain.
    Make this one require magic instruments.
    >Sun's Song: Chnages day to night (magic instruments only)
    This one just passes time rather than changing day to night, so it doesn't need a magic instrument.
    >Song of Healing: Heals spirits, removes cruses, makes masks.
    In order of increasing magic. Get stronger effects from having more magic involved.
    >Saria's Song: Communication with certain individual.
    Communicate with Saria. X's Song: communicate with X, assuming X wrote it.
    Wind's Requiem: Changes wind flow and strength.
    >Command Melody - Take control of certain person/object.
    They must be willing and able. More useful for magically responsive objects, designed to be controlled.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)17:22 No.15026630
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)17:32 No.15026707
    Saria's Song can also have funny effects in forests, especially ones with a magical history.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)17:38 No.15026782
    >Missing the entire point of the song in this game
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)17:40 No.15026812
    We don't need to slavishly follow the game, you know. It's a starting point, not the be-all and end-all, and there is precedent.

    Besides, the idea of inadvertently waking up a fairly hostile enchanted forest is amusing.
    >> Library Lass 05/23/11(Mon)17:59 No.15026979
    Amusing maybe, but really, really not in keeping with what it does.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)18:10 No.15027110

    I'll just go with 4 points in both virtues and attributes for now, under the system outline I made here, a fairly stereotypical Link-wannabe swordsman might look like

    Power 2, Courage 3, Wisdom 2
    Physical 3, Mental 2, Social 2
    Blade 2, Shield 2, Bomb 1, Tool 1

    POWER SOCIALITE (for instance, the Deku herald from the first thread)

    Power 4, Courage 2, Wisdom 1
    Physical 2, Mental 1, Social 4
    Skills... Ah, well, we don't have much particular to that.

    Bomb expert!
    Power 2, Courage 2, Wisdom 3
    Physical 3, Mental 3, Social 1
    (Bomb 3, other skill 1, other skill 1) or (Bomb 4)

    There's a lot of flexibility so far in how to make a given concept. That's pretty cool to me.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)18:25 No.15027272
    but the use of those specific songs is unecessary

    just come up with your own songs that fit your players and setting and have them perform the effects that you'd like

    if you want temples, then get your own temple warp songs

    if you're specifically following the path of Link then unless someone's there to teach the song or you have some divine inspiration, it doesn't really make sense for you to even know the song
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)18:27 No.15027293

    Prelude of Light: Warp to world's light-themed temple (Any Temple might get full of evil.).

    The more I think about it, the more I really like the terrain block idea I came up with in >>15017410.
    It doesn't track exact position, but since it explicitly states how you get from one area to the next (Hookshot, activate 5 switches, use a key, etc.), it might make puzzle design easier.

    Something that should get decided on at some point.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)18:45 No.15027459
         File1306190709.png-(371 KB, 675x540, Sheik_by_Art_Fiction.png)
    371 KB
    Scribe, you're probably not around at the moment, but as I said in the last thread, Wisom/Physical should be very stealthy, tactical combat

    appearing only when they want to be seen, using flashbombs, throwing needles, and bladed (even electrified) chains

    Sheik is of course the ideal to which any wisdom/physical character aspires to, and the gerudo warriors with the scimitars would be other examples of such builds
    >> TKDB 05/23/11(Mon)19:09 No.15027684
    Loving the progress so far, everything's coming along nicely.
    I like the idea of renaming "Social" to "Spiritual" and letting it apply to songs (although there will probably be very few cases where songs will actually require a roll).
    I also support keeping songs limited in scope, though I don't think we should necessarily limit ourselves solely to those songs already in the games. Bolero of Fire should still simply be a shortcut to the fire temple, but if you wanted to add a Scorching Scherzo that had some limited fire-related effects on the surroundings (for instance, igniting torches and similarly flammable objects) even though no such thing exists in the games that would be perfectly acceptable. As long as its primary role is utility or otherwise non-combat, and the effect is specific and clearly defined (even if it's just a case, as with Zelda's Lullaby, of "this song activates things that are keyed to it"), it should work. Songs should not be a substitute for true magic (there's a whole different skill for that).
    Of course, this is not to say that songs should never have any combat applications whatsoever, only that those applications should be extremely limited and require some creativity (eg, using the Sun Song to stun Redeads in OoT).

    >if you're specifically following the path of Link then unless someone's there to teach the song or you have some divine inspiration, it doesn't really make sense for you to even know the song.
    That's kind of the point, as far as I'm aware. Songs, just like pretty much everything else, have to be tracked down and obtained. There could be a few exceptions that a character could compose himself, but these should be limited to a small selection of the "weaker" songs (such as Epona's Song).

    Which reminds me, we should probably think about putting rules for mounts/pets/companions/etc. on our to-do list. Probably can be put on the back burner for now, but something to keep in mind at least.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)19:13 No.15027717
    The Gerudo warriors strike me more as a Courage/Wisdom mix. They've got the stealth, but also the upfront offensive.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)19:15 No.15027740
    >I like the idea of renaming "Social" to "Spiritual" and letting it apply to songs

    I don't. I don't really care what's used for music, but a Spirit or Soul theme doesn't even give the implication of covering the same things Social is for. What's the use of it? And what does it have to do with music, anyway?
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)19:19 No.15027780
    you could just add a 4th attribute for soul and then lump magic and stuff in there
    >> Library Lass 05/23/11(Mon)19:25 No.15027851
    That kind of diminishes the use of Mental, though. Power/Mental and Wisdom/Mental are both generally magic-focused.
    >> Library Lass 05/23/11(Mon)19:26 No.15027864
    Well, Wisdom/Mental does other things, but Power/Mental has gained a particular association with magic.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)19:29 No.15027889
    Spiritual is the third attribute, and it governs social skills. Makes more sense that way.
    >> TKDB 05/23/11(Mon)19:29 No.15027894
    Are we in agreement on the fighting-style rules proposed in the previous thread? The idea was that at character creation you could choose to use any one of the three virtues for your keep value on most weapons (though some things may be restricted to specific virtues, such as really heavy weapons with Power), and you'd then have modifiers to your combat rolls depending on which virtue you chose. A Courage-based style would be balanced, with no changes. Power style is aggressive but reckless, adding a die to your rolled pool on the attack but subtracting one from your pool for defensive rolls. Wisdom style is cautious, adding a die to your defensive pools but subtracting one from attack.

    Also on the subject of virtues in combat: I think we're all agreed that Power should add bonus damage to attacks, but I don't think it's been determined yet if this should be on a per-success basis (effectively increasing the damage increment of any weapon used), or just a flat bonus on any attack that hits, regardless of the number of successes rolled. Personally, I think it should definitely be the latter case; increasing damage increments feels like it would get too powerful when the kept-dice pool gets too big. Even if we assume nobody will get a Power score over the starting cap of 4, that's still a potential 4 extra hearts of damage if we assume 1/4 heart of bonus damage per point in Power and all 4 kept dice are successes.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)19:31 No.15027910
    I think we should wait for Sir Scribe to come back before making big decisions like changing/adding new attributes.
    >> TKDB 05/23/11(Mon)19:36 No.15027983
    There's going to be a certain level of abstraction in any game system to where things don't make perfect sense. I find it easier to say social interaction falls under the purview of the Spiritual attribute than to say musical instruments fall under the purview of either Social or Mental; being a musician myself, I know that neither of these is really true. And given the flavor of how music works in the Zelda universe, it really is a pretty "spiritual" sort of thing. Plus with how limited social interaction is in the Zelda games, it feels more appropriate to have a Spiritual attribute than a Social one (even if it's simply a matter of nomenclature with no actually mechanical differences). And the name change opens up mechanical space for things that otherwise might have resulted in bloating the domain of the Mental attribute.
    >> TKDB 05/23/11(Mon)19:38 No.15027997
    It's really just a name change to the existing attribute that's being discussed; I think we can safely discard the idea of adding another attribute at this point in the process.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)19:39 No.15028003
    Power/Physical: overwhelming force ("rock")
    Power/Mental: strong, flashy magic
    Power/Spiritual: willpower, intimidation (see: Ganondorf pulling the sword out of his chest)

    Wisdom/Physical: ninja bullshit ("scissors")
    Wisdom/Mental: protective, subtle magic, book-learnin'
    Wisdom/Spiritual: persuasion, deception, music

    Courage/Physical: fancy, versatile weapons ("paper')
    Courage/Mental: morality-based magic, getting hints from the DM
    Courage/Spiritual: inspiration, leadership, purity of heart
    >> TKDB 05/23/11(Mon)19:51 No.15028146
    I'm not sure if you're trying to summarize or contribute your own take...in the latter case, you should know that we hashed out most of that ages ago. See >>15015425. Which your post mostly lines up with, but for a few exceptions.

    Though really, that post up there need a few updates.
    I'm pretty sure Wisdom/Physical is settled as the home for all your stealthy, nimble, ninja-type stuff.

    Instruments I believe will be added to the purview of Wisdom/Spiritual, though I suppose it could be argued that the particular virtue involved depends on the type of song.

    Blade skill probably isn't going to be governed by any particular virtue anymore, assuming we go with the fighting style rules. And it's up for debate where tools and bows will fall. I don't think they should go under the fighting style rules, since they don't really make sense under Power, but it also seems kind of arbitrary to restrict them to one virtue when either Wisdom or Courage could make sense. Perhaps we should work out a secondary style for these cases?
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)19:54 No.15028178
    In-series example of the various Virtues as they correspond to magic:

    Power: Ganondorf zaps Link with a wave of dark energy, raises zombies, and makes his castle float. These are going to seem disproportionately strong because most of the time Ganon was doing them with the power of the Triforce. Also, the fire and ice arrows.

    Wisdom: Zelda disguises herself. The Sages summon Link into the Temple of Light. The seals on the miniboss in the Arbiter's Grounds. Using various magic mirrors to travel into various alternate dimensions. The Lens of Truth.

    Courage: The Master Sword being powered up by various means. The Sages communing with their predecessors. Most transformation masks. Most things that fairies do.

    All the really powerful shit, like the seal on the Door of Time, the Master Sword's anti-evil properties, locking an entire country in stasis, traveling through time, etc. is going to require the three virtues in balance.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)20:14 No.15028373
    I think it'd make more sense to state when what virtues apply, depending on circumstances, than making a choice like that.

    Consider, for instance, Wisdom/Physical. Stealth, deliberate movement, understanding and knowledge. Seem the obvious thing to do, is that you get your Wisdom as kept dice for surprise/sneak attacks and similar circumstances, in addition to or instead of what you'd normally use.
    Courage and Power are more straightforward, but I'm sure we can find similar circumstances to encourage either. Limitations by items on what can be done, of course.
    Basically, let fighting styles emerge from what the virtues do, don't just say "choose this and get these modifiers."

    And I'm still against the Spiritual renaming. The name just doesn't fit at all. Spirit also doesn't fit, the closest we've got to what that would mean is Courage. If you think Social doesn't fit, okay, but come up with something that actually fits better.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/23/11(Mon)21:05 No.15028892
    Alright, so change Hearts to 1 + Courage + Physical.

    Sounds good. Add a cap of 3 to Skills upon character creation, though.

    I personally like 4 points.

    looking good. I asked the Deku Herald guy about skill sand he agreed with me that Instruments sound like a very Social Skill, and also asked for Tools and whatever Deku Nuts would be. He likes Deku Nuts.

    I'm back. Yeah, Wisdom Physical is Stealth, Subtlety, and other such sneaky gittery. Gerudo Sworddancers strike me more as Courage/Physical, though, but I don't really remember much of them other than Oh god spinning blade chick.

    I'm back. Looking so far, I don't really like Social being renamed Spiritual... but whatever. I had already thought that Social would be the go-to for a musician.

    Fighting Styles I think are a yes. Someone want to try and list what each fighting style would be, and what are set in stone? (i.e. Heavy being Power/Physical only)
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)21:06 No.15028907
    Stop using / and the names make more sense:
    Physical Power
    Physical Wisdom
    Physical Courge
    Mental Power
    Mental Wisdom
    Mental Courage
    Social Power
    Social Wisdom
    Social Courage

    Just for comparison's sake:
    Spiritual Power
    Spiritual Wisdom
    Spiritual Courage

    I support the "spiritual" rename, myself. Spiritual Power indicates you have a strong soul and can influence people and well as natural spirits. Exerting force. Spiritual Wisdom shows understanding and knowledge of subtle forces, be they holding someone's attention in a conversation or feeling for the presence of a fairy. Manipulating force. Spiritual Courage is more inward, drawing people to you ("please help me!") and naturally bringing subtle flows of magic and thus faeries and the like to you.

    I dunno, just spitballing here. I like the idea of Social having a use when you're at the bottom of a dungeon with just other player characters - it becomes the realm of subtle magics and detection.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)21:14 No.15028974
    Naturally, most instrumental music is about subtle flows of magic being used to great effect, like guiding trickles of magic into a brief almighty torrent to affect time and space around you. Most of the spells have a very strong natural and spiritual theme to them. Spiritual/Social would also govern animal kinship too, I suppose. I doubt someone without great Social/Spiritual prowess could ever meet a Keaton!
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)21:16 No.15029000
    Well, what do you think of the idea to try making styles more... "If you attack in this manner, you use this virtue", rather than "choose a virtue, these are your mods"? To some extent, this would involve making a few different types of actions and keying them to virtues, but leave people with the choice during play, not locking them into something at character creation.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)21:19 No.15029043

    You make a nice and good case. So Spiritual Wisdom is as much understanding the arguments as understanding who you're talking with so you can choose the right arguments to present.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/23/11(Mon)21:23 No.15029086
    Ok, when you put it THAT way, it makes more sense.

    AS for fighting styles, this is a loose suggestion so feel absolutely free to shoot it down, but how about different items lending themselves to different virtues? Say, a TP Darknut's broadsword and the Ordon sword both use |Blade|, but the former lends itself to Power while the latter lends itself to Courage? meanwhile, Knives lend themselves to Wisdom?

    Going along with that, you could say that a Bomb lends itself to Courage, but a Bombchu or Bombling needs Wisdom to use effectively?

    Again, just blowing out my ass here. Feel free to offer up something better.
    >> TKDB 05/23/11(Mon)21:30 No.15029134
    That could work too, though it would probably make things more complicated both from a design and a gameplay standpoint. You'd need to have at least a few basic combat maneuvers that would allow for players to consistently be able to use their better virtue without requiring ranks in a skill. If I were to name a few ideas off the top of my head...
    For Power, I think a mechanic similar to what was proposed for the fighting style would work, just make it optional. Possibly make it a scaleable thing, where you can deduct multiple dice from your defense to add to attack, and possibly even allow some increase of kept dice with this transfer? And of course, heavy weapons would use Power as a default.
    Likewise, there could be a defensive fighting option based on the effects proposed for the Wisdom style, and Wisdom would also apply to sneak attacks and similar things. Maybe there could be some kind of parry/riposte mechanic that would fit here too? And stuff like knives, rapiers, and chain weapons, could use Wisdom as a default.
    Courage would be the default for medium-weight weapons like Link's sword, and would be applied for special abilities (like the sword spin) used with these weapons. Shield maneuvers would probably fit well here too.

    Speaking of sneak attacks, should that be a basic use of the stealth skill, or should it be a special ability under the stealth tree? I like the skill-based ability suggestions mentioned earlier in the thread, but I was thinking it might be nice to have a few more available to give a little more variety. Make it an actual tree rather than a simple linear progression of "always ability A at skill rank 2, always B at 4, always C at 6." And at the higher levels, you can choose either a more advanced ability, or another basic ability.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)21:32 No.15029167
    Exactly. And outside of towns, cities and farms, it's knowing how to tell the difference between pollen in the air and a fairy trail. Some people are just more naturally attuned to mystical things. A Hyrulian child with high Spiritual Wisdom for their age spends most of their time running and sneaking around the pretty gardens outside the castle, chasing wisps and fairy trails. They'd also be well-spoken, if perhaps a little odd and precocious to a less wise adult.

    A person with great Spiritual Power and low Physical Power seems to fill a room with his presence even though he does not seem all that strong. Weaker fairy-like creatures immediately scamper or fly away, or are cowed into freezing in place. On the opposite side, a person of low Spiritual Power and high Physical Power will likely be an oafish brute - unsubtle, indelicate, and exerts force without concern for details, but most people would naturally think low of him for his lack of charisma.
    >> B.O.B. 05/23/11(Mon)21:36 No.15029218
    Just putting my name on these when I come archive-diving later, I've often posted anon and completely forgotten what I've contributed to stuff (if anything).

    Basically, Zelda games have always had a strong Spiritual aspect to them. In Twilight Princess, everyone you see in the Twilight is nothing more than a flickering soul - the obvious connection between Spiritual connections and Social connections is fairly clear, and I think it helps us move away from the three generic categories White Wolf are so fond of (not that I dislike them, I'm an nWoD player myself) and towards a more appropriate thematic feel, without going too far away from solid mechanical roots.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)21:42 No.15029289
    That sounds like a great way to do things. It would certainly help spice up the weapon variety in the game so that, say, swords of the same size aren't all completely identical.

    It kind of fits with the whole Zelda feel as well, with a kind of "Only a truly wise hero may wield this SuperFancy Magical Zora Halberd!" vibe.
    >> TKDB 05/23/11(Mon)21:57 No.15029473
    >how about different items lending themselves to different virtues

    Definitely a good idea, though it could be a little tricky to pin down certain items. For instance, bows: Wisdom or Courage? Same problem for hookshot and boomerang.

    Also, if we're doing optional aggressive/defensive combat modes rather than hard-and-fast, always-on combat styles, do we want to limit certain items from being used in those modes? For instance, a giant battleaxe can't be used to fight defensively and use Wisdom on your attack rolls? Or maybe just it can be used defensively, but still uses Power rather than Wisdom as you usually do when fighting defensively?

    And speaking of combat modes, should we think up a way to use Courage for a typically Power- or Wisdom-based weapon? We have aggressive attacks for switching to Power, and defensive fighting for Wisdom, but what would you do with a Courage style?
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)22:02 No.15029516
    I'd assume a giant sword to fall under Heavy, myself.

    Maybe it's not necessary to lock so many things down, either. Heavy weapons use Power, but Blades (which I consider to be more a category for and "normal" sized handheld weapon, basically anything you'd feasibly use with one hand) could use either Power or Courage, depending. Everything else about the virtues might serve to differentiate enough anyway.
    Really light weapons like daggers and such could use Wisdom or Courage, or possible any of the three.
    Though actually, I think there need not be any at all that are specifically usable with Wisdom. If we go with adding Wisdom to kept dice for sneak attacks, but it still running primarily on Courage (or even Power? but probably Courage), it would mean a super sneak would have halfway weak face-to-face combat ability, but if you don't notice him coming, you're in for a world of pain.

    Of course, this means getting that kind of drop on people is good for just about anybody (depending on if you can use Heavy with it or not, of course), since it'll be at least 1 extra die, but for the Physical Wisdom focused, it'd be a priority.

    I figured it'd trigger as long as you managed to sneak up on the target, which would just necessitate successful stealth. Something most wouldn't be that great at.

    Does this mean Spiritual Wisdom is what you notice sneaks with? Do we need a skill for it?
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)22:03 No.15029527
    >my first text field too long!

    And finally an idea for armor use: An Armor skill allowing use of heavier armor. If you don't have sufficient skill for it, you subtract the difference from your Physical rolls, representing your inability to move properly. If the roll is reduced to 1k0 or less, it means you flat out can't move. You still get the reduced damage that comes from wearing the armor, though.
    If Gorons are supposed to be particularly resistant to damage, we give them an inherent armor rating of some certain value. Since it doesn't stack, it's either for them to invest more points to get armor that has an effect for them, or simply do without.
    All under the assumption that inherent armor isn't unbalanced, of course.
    >> TKDB 05/23/11(Mon)22:06 No.15029553
    If I'm not mistaken, I think we've hit the bump limit. For the new thread, I think we should update the virtue/attribute descriptions to reflect the progress we've made in defining the mechanical space for each (including the name change from Social to Spiritual, if we're set on that). And I like >>15028907's suggestion of how to refer to the attribute/virtue combinations, I think we should use those for the new thread.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)22:12 No.15029626
    I think the only defensive maneuvers that should involve Wisdom are dodging. No Wisdom based weapons, aside ranged ones, maybe. I could see bows falling under it, but any face-to-face combat style using Wisdom, I don't get. I don't think everybody need to be able to do everything equally well, either.

    Using Physical Wisdom to avoid blows makes sense, but then you can't use a shield. Too much skipping and tumbling. The traditional strafing with the shield up is a Courage thing, don't you think?

    I've been thinking we might want some sort of acrobatics skill. Could be used for dodging in that case. Might be bloat. Unsure of interaction with Armor.
    >> Anonymous 05/23/11(Mon)22:18 No.15029676
    Physical Courage is definitely the domain of back-flipping, rolling, sword-clashes and running with your shield up. Physical Wisdom is more Sheik's thing - Flash-stepping, unarmed dodges, and the like.
    Physical Power is moving in a straight line through your opponent, dangerous end first.
    >> TKDB 05/23/11(Mon)22:34 No.15029865
    I'd say stuff like fencing with a rapier fits with Physical Wisdom, but it should definitely be a "dodge and parry until a see an opening" sort of thing.

    If nobody has any objections, I'll go ahead and start the next thread, since we're in the fast lane to page 15 at this point.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/23/11(Mon)22:45 No.15030007
    Sounds good. Stick a link to it here when you make it.

    I personally think we should go with >>15029086, where some types of item are keyed to a Virtue. However, the only really contested skill is currently |Blade|, which is kind of unique. Perhaps Using Power with a Blade decreases your Defense Dice next turn, increasing damage this turn, while Wisdom has an opposite effect, being the footwork and positioning equivalent to a total defense action with a shield.

    Meanwhile, with other skills, thing's like medium armor are Courage, Heavy armors are Power, and light and straight-magic robes are Wisdom, while all are inherently Physical. Bows are Courage OR Wisdom, inherently, Heavy are Power, inherently, and I mentioned my thoughts with Bombs.

    We've also already confirmed that different Magic spells and Rods are keyed to different Virtues, with things like shielding and healing Wisdom, buffing and utility Courage, and straight offense, like Din's Fire, are Power.
    >> TKDB 05/23/11(Mon)22:47 No.15030034
    New thread >>15029972

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