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  • File : 1306368902.jpg-(41 KB, 344x480, LoZ propaganda.jpg)
    41 KB Legend of Zelda RPG Thread #5: Yes, we are aware there's a d20 version out there. Anonymous 05/25/11(Wed)20:15 No.15051875  
    Old thread: http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/15029972/
    We now have a page on the wiki! http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Legend_of_Zelda_RPG

    >The super-condensed crash course; see the wiki for details
    3 Virtues: Power, Wisdom, Courage
    3 Attributes: Physical, Mental, Spiritual
    Some skills, mostly item-based in keeping with Zelda themes.
    A number of techniques/abilities, which are purchased a-la-carte with XP. Most of them will be tied to a specific skill, requiring a certain number of ranks in that skill to learn.

    The system uses a d6 roll & keep system, using linear comparison for opposed checks. This means that you roll X six-sided dice (with X = your ranks in the relevant Attribute + your ranks in the relevant skill) and only use the Y highest rolls (with Y = your ranks in the relevant Virtue). Linear comparison means that in the case of a contested roll (such as in combat) you compare your highest roll to your opponent's highest, your second highest to their second highest, and so forth. If one party in the contest has more kept dice than the opponent, the extra dice are treated as unopposed, with a success threshold of 4.

    Unopposed rolls are compared to a fixed success threshold, with a certain number of successes required to accomplish the intended task. For example, pushing a heavy block might require 2 successes, with success defined as a die showing 4 or greater; in this case, you'd roll Physical and keep Power.
    >> Anonymous 05/25/11(Wed)20:15 No.15051878
    Character advancement is free-form, with XP investment improving skills and attributes. Virtues are extremely difficult to improve, and shouldn't change much over the course of a typical game. There are a number of special techniques available to choose from, each classified under a relevant skill. Higher skill ranks are prerequisites for more advanced techniques.

    Core races consist of Deku Scrub, Gerudo, Goron, Hylian, Kokiri, and Zora, with more under discussion. Each race gets a couple nifty abilities (eg, Gorons can roll into a ball and roll around, Zora can breathe underwater, and so forth), except for Hylians, who instead get a +1 to the Virtue of their choice (though this can't be applied to put any Virtue over the usual starting limit of 4). No other races get any bonuses to Virtues. Each race also has a Mass score, which affects movement speed, getting knocked/pushed around, use of the hookshot/clawshot, and so forth.

    Damage is measured in hearts, and can be dealt in fractions of up to 1/4 heart. Your character has hearts equal to 1 + Courage + Physical, making the minimum number of hearts 3. Hearts can be increased by increasing your Physical or Courage values, or by obtaining Pieces of Heart and Heart Containers, which will be distributed as rewards for beating bosses and tough puzzles and the like.
    >> Anonymous 05/25/11(Wed)20:16 No.15051889
    >Last time in the LoZ RPG planning thread
    The major loose threads from the previous...um...thread...are:

    >Combat: How does it work?
    Leading suggestion is: 2 actions per round; each can be used to attack, defend, move, or use an item.
    Attacks roll [weapon skill] + [attribute], keep [virtue]. Each success deals 1 damage increment, as defined by the weapon. A knife might have a damage increment of only 1/4 heart, while an Iron Knuckle's axe might deal 2 hearts.
    Defense is simply roll Physical/keep Wisdom, unless you take an action to defend, in which case you also add relevant skill dice. Successes on defense have no effect unless unopposed; each unopposed success for the defense negates an increment of damage.
    Armor applies a flat reduction to damage increments of weapons used against you, to a minimum of 1/4 heart (except for the absolute best-of-the-best armor).

    >Skills: How do we keep them from bloating the rolled-dice pool and still have them contribute to your success in relevant tasks?
    Leading suggestion is to have every odd-numbered rank in a skill add to your kept dice total when using the skill, and every even-numbered rank add to your dice rolled.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/25/11(Wed)20:27 No.15051998
    Should I repost my origial combat summary from the previous thread, or does it seem like we've gotten past that part/ just don't need it anymore?
    >> Anonymous 05/25/11(Wed)20:29 No.15052022
    I think it could still use some discussion, since there were still some suggestions being kicked around for defense, like adapting nWoD's static defense mechanic.
    >> Race and Defense Guy 05/25/11(Wed)20:31 No.15052042
    I'd say we might be OK on it; if it's up on the wiki like my proto-race writeups, people can look at those there.

    As far as Defense and such, I'm good with whatever. I actually like the roll Wis/Phys that was suggested (I suggested swiping NWoD's Defense mechanism) and use that as 'passive defense,' with more dice added when you choose to Guard.

    Have we come up with any basic equipment stats so far?
    >> Race and Defense Guy 05/25/11(Wed)20:33 No.15052057
    If not, let me know. Everyone seems relatively satisified with the core Races, so I could totally take a few swings at equipment.
    >> Anonymous 05/25/11(Wed)20:38 No.15052103
    I don't think there's been much done on equipment, so you can take a stab at it. (No pun intended...)

    I was just going to add a section for combat rules on the wiki, when it hit me: we haven't determined a method for determining initiative count yet. It was agreed in an earlier thread that Courage should be the main deciding factor, but I don't think the roll & keep/linear comparison system will be so great for initiative. How does 2d6 + Courage sound?
    >> Race and Defense Guy 05/25/11(Wed)20:43 No.15052168
    I'd say either that, or use a normal roll, but ignore the linear comparison and simply count successs, in keeping with the rest of our system. Roll Cou/Phys and count 4+; highest goes first, then down the line? Maybe even add in some Acrobatics-based techniques that would add dice?
    >> Anonymous 05/25/11(Wed)21:04 No.15052391
    Ah, that makes sense. Treat it as an unopposed roll. Duh. Why didn't I think of that?

    Should Mental be allowed to contribute? It seems to me that mental reaction time could have just as much of an impact as physical reaction time, especially for a sage-type character.
    >> Race and Defense Guy 05/25/11(Wed)21:10 No.15052460
    Perhaps make that a technique that can be purchased, or perhaps a spell of some sort, to allow another Attribute to be subbed in for Cou? I understand the point behind it, but as with the discussion earlier of what Attr to use with weapons/items at times, it seems that speed reaction time would be the primary, with using your mental reaction time in place being something special. Or being so intimidating that enemies go below you (Pow/Phys).

    Looking at Swords right now; do we want to list them generically as Tier-based, or should I snag lists and run them up to, say, the damage equivalent of the Iron Knuckle's Battleaxe, at 2 Hearts/8 Damage (so in essence, Swords would have 7 starting with the Fighter's Sword at 1/2 Heart, probably Gilded Sword in the middle with 1 1/4, and Master Sword at 2?)
    >> Anonymous 05/25/11(Wed)21:12 No.15052490
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    now that we have 1d4wiki page.

    the .pdf is lost ??
    >> Race and Defense Guy 05/25/11(Wed)21:14 No.15052505
    We're not anywhere NEAR far enough along to bother with a PDF yet (at least, in my opinion). We're barely at a point where we can alpha test the mechanics we've made up here.
    >> Potential combat rules Temporary Combat Namefag 05/25/11(Wed)21:23 No.15052601
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    Ok, here goes.

    Heart meter:
    1 + Courage + Physical (minimum 3)

    Attacking: Takes one action
    [weapon skill] + [attribute] = # dice rolled
    [virtue] = # of dice kept

    Each Attack Success = 1[W] damage dealt to target

    Passive Defense: No action, done automatically when attacked
    [attribute] = # of dice rolled
    [virtue] = # of dice kept
    Active Defense: Takes one action, focused on one Attacker for one round.
    [Dodging and/or shield skill] + [attribute] = # of dice rolled
    [virtue] = # of dice kept

    Each Defense Success = no change, unless unopposed. Successful unopposed dice reduce 1[w] of damage from the enemy’s attack.

    Highest Dice are compared with the opponent's highest, second highest with second highest, and so on.
    Ties count as successes for the Attacker.
    Unopposed dice (where one opponent keeps more dice than their opponent) count as successes on a roll of 4 or higher.

    * * *

    This system still doesn't take into account armor and it's damage reducing properties. To better model that, perhaps the bit about unopposed defense successes should be removed.

    If not, perhaps the unopposed defense success should only come into play if a sheild is used.

    I'm no game expert, I'm just trying to summarize the ideas suggested and make things clearer to understand.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/25/11(Wed)21:25 No.15052613
    We also talked about Heavy weapons taking 2 actions, which seems like a good balancing act. It means you can't defend as well, or attack more than once in a turn.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/25/11(Wed)21:31 No.15052674
    In addition, have we talked about not opposing checks at all? So attackers and defenders just try and roll as many 4's or higher as they can? Just throwing it out there.

    >equating aseirly
    >> Anonymous 05/25/11(Wed)21:34 No.15052700
    I think the linear comparison is probably better. Especially at higher dice pool sizes, you're probably going to be getting a lot of ties anyway if you're just counting successes. Linear comparison makes it a lot more dynamic, a lot more potential for give-and-take.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/25/11(Wed)21:51 No.15052874
    Or rather, attacking with a heavy weapon taking 1 action, then needing a second action to bring it to bare again.

    >It balances the Heavy weapon's hideous damage output by limiting them to 1 attack per turn, and it also gives me the mental image of an Iron Knuckle ruining a guy's shit with his axe, then choosing not to recover, leaving the axe embedded in the ground just so he can punch the guy in the face in the same turn.
    >> JSCervini !!L+hOixyXrvo 05/25/11(Wed)21:56 No.15052938
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    Crunch-wise, I'm still hammering out what I can of another project, but I can contribute with drawfaggotry.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/25/11(Wed)21:57 No.15052942
    Ohh, I see it now.

    There's also some possibility for Wind Waker-type shenanigans, with opponents using each other's dropped weapons should they choose to leave them (or if they get disarmed.)
    >> JSCervini !!L+hOixyXrvo 05/25/11(Wed)22:15 No.15053009
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    >from seadivi
    Captcha's getting good...
    >> Race and Defense Guy 05/25/11(Wed)22:16 No.15053025
    I have this image of a Goron picking up an Iron Knuckle's Greataxe after it leaves it in the ground (from the above punch example), and using it to wail away on the IK. And it is AWESOME.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/25/11(Wed)22:20 No.15053059


    I'm a better artist than a game designer (but not by much) so now I have to contribute something to make up for what you've already provided.
    >> JSCervini !!L+hOixyXrvo 05/25/11(Wed)22:20 No.15053065
    Working on a goron design right now.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/25/11(Wed)22:22 No.15053076
    I fully intend to contribute Drawfaggotry for this project. Expect a Goron vs Iron Knuckle, good sir.

    Right, anyway, getting shit done. I missed the majority of the last thread's conclusion, Have we actually decided on how skills work?

    Last I remember is Skills, which contribute to the dice pools and dictate what level items a PC can use, as well as separate Abilities, taken in trees that make a character more customizable.

    i.e. two characters could both be Physical Courage based, and dump points into the Medium Weapon skill, but one could take abilities that make him a slice n' dice fencer while the other knocks bulbins around with a mace & shield.
    >> Anonymous 05/25/11(Wed)22:28 No.15053122
    a little disappointed that Rito still aren't on the core races list

    >every odd-numbered rank in a skill add to your kept dice total when using the skill, and every even-numbered rank add to your dice rolled.
    might want to reverse that so that your dice pool is more likely to be equal to or greater than your kept dice rather than the other way around
    >> Sir Scribe 05/25/11(Wed)22:31 No.15053155
    >every odd-numbered rank in a skill add to your kept dice total when using the skill, and every even-numbered rank add to your dice rolled.

    Bwuh? when did THAT happen? What happened to Roll Attribute + Skill, Keep Virtue?
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/25/11(Wed)22:31 No.15053157
    An easy way to tweak it would be to switch it around, with odd ranks going into the rolled pool.

    Then again, I'm still a little worried about the numbers getting too huge, but as it stands we need to get some kind of system done so we can move on.
    >> JSCervini !!L+hOixyXrvo 05/25/11(Wed)22:37 No.15053206
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    Wow, this one was tough.
    >> Anonymous 05/25/11(Wed)22:38 No.15053219
    see >>15051889
    >>Skills: How do we keep them from bloating the rolled-dice pool and still have them contribute to your success in relevant tasks?

    >switch it around, with odd ranks going into the rolled pool.
    that's exactly what I just said. and this is meant to address the issue of dice pools getting too huge. with the alternating system the maximum for dice pools and kept dice are both 9, which at least keeps them within the single digits. with the simple roll attributes + skills keep virtues you end up with maximum 12 dice pool and maximum 6 kept dice, which is ridiculous
    >> Anonymous 05/25/11(Wed)22:52 No.15053363
    >Heart meter:
    >1 + Courage + Physical (minimum 3)
    This seems a bit excessive. That means someone could start with 9 hearts, which is equivalent to 36 starting HP (I'm considering one quarter of a heart 1 HP), plus any armor and/or defensive skills or abilities one might take at creation.
    >> Anonymous 05/25/11(Wed)22:53 No.15053368
    Compiling weapon ideas. Hold on...

    Also, I know skill is specific to weapon (or weapon category) but do we want Attribute and Virtue to be weapon specific or character specific?

    Because if they're weapon specific I'm going to try to make a a few for each combination of Attribute and Virtue.
    At least this:
    And heavy and a light for each.
    A ranged and a close-quarter
    A long reach and a defensive weapon.
    >> JSCervini !!L+hOixyXrvo 05/25/11(Wed)22:55 No.15053387
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    Awww, ain't they cute?
    >> Sir Scribe 05/25/11(Wed)22:58 No.15053412
    Yes, I believe this practice is known as "being party Tank"

    Your question is kind of confusingly worded... I'll try to answer it.

    Groups of weapons are locked into Attributes. Actual close-combat weapons are Physical, Instruments are Spiritual. Magic is Mental. and so on.

    My main suggestion was that there are items in each skill group that lend themselves to different virtues. For example, in the |Weapon| group, you have things like knives, which lend themselves to Wisdom. Things like Longswords lend themselves to courage. A hammer or broadsword would be Power.

    in |Bows|, some types of bows might be Courage, while another might be Wisdom, allowing for different types of characters to both practice archery.

    In other groups, they are all a particular virtue. Power for Heavy, for example.

    Did that answer your question?
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/25/11(Wed)23:03 No.15053445
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    Zora are weird.
    >> Anonymous 05/25/11(Wed)23:06 No.15053470
         File1306379189.jpg-(1.11 MB, 1700x956, legend of zelda oot and mm wal(...).jpg)
    1.11 MB

    >> JSCervini !!L+hOixyXrvo 05/25/11(Wed)23:09 No.15053501
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    Damn Temp, that Zora is bitchin!

    And now, desert tranny! Go!
    >> Anonymous 05/25/11(Wed)23:10 No.15053520
    Ball and Chain (H, Reach, Sweep)- - - -Power/Spiritual (<3x2)
    Megaton Hammer (H, Stun) - - - -Courage/Physical (<3x2.5)
    Great Sword/Great Axe (H) - - - -Power/Physical (<3x3)
    Cane of Byrna (H, Ranged) - - - -Wisdom/Mental (<3x2)

    Hero's Sword (M) - - - - Courage/Spiritual
    Gerudo Scimitar (M) - - - -Courage/Physical (<3x.75)
    Long Spear (M, Reach) - - - - Wisdom/Spiritual (<3x1)
    Gauntlet (M) - - - - Power/Physical (<3x1)
    Hookshot (M, Reach) - - - - Wisdom/Physical (<3x0.5)
    Bomb (M, Ranged) - - - - Power/Spiritual (<3x2)
    Bombchu (M, Ranged) - - - - Wisdom/Spiritual (<3x1.75)
    Bow (M, Ranged) - - - - Courage/Spiritual (<3x1)
    Fire Rod/Ice Rod (M, Ranged) - - - - Wisdom/Mental (<3x1)

    Dagger, Needles, Deku Stick, Boomerang, Slingshot, Golden Bees, etc incoming
    >> Race and Defense Guy 05/25/11(Wed)23:13 No.15053549
    It took me a minute to realize you had done ascii hearts.

    The way I was going to shorthand heart stuff was just preface weapons with 'Damage is listed as a number, 1 through 8; these are each number is considered a quarter-Heart. So 2 would be marked on the Heart Meter as 1/2 Heart ticked in, while 8 would be marked on the Heart Meter as 2 ticked Hearts in full. It's easier to read at least to my mind, but whatever the group likes!
    >> JSCervini !!L+hOixyXrvo 05/25/11(Wed)23:14 No.15053561
    And quite frankly, I suck with humanoid plants, so I'll leave the Deku Scrubs to those who can do them well.
    >> Anonymous 05/25/11(Wed)23:15 No.15053566
    Dagger (L) - - - - Courage/Spiritual (<3x.5)
    Deku Stick (L) - - - - Power/Physical (<3x.75)
    Tome (L) - - - - Wisdom/Mental (<3x.25)
    Needles (L, Ranged) - - - - Wisdom/Physical (<3x.25)
    Sling Shot (L, Ranged) - - - - Power/Spiritual (<3x.5)
    Golden Bee (L, Ranged) - - - -Courage/Mental (<3x.25)
    Din's Fire (L, Ranged) - - - - Power/Mental (<3x.75)
    >> Anonymous 05/25/11(Wed)23:16 No.15053583
    Forgot Boomerang

    Boomerang (L, Ranged) - - - - Courage/Spiritual (<3x.5)
    >> Race and Defense Guy 05/25/11(Wed)23:21 No.15053641
    Boomerang should probably have the Stun tag; it tends to do that.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/25/11(Wed)23:22 No.15053651
    Erm, you must have missed the memo. Things like Ball&Chain and Megaton Hammer, and everything else under Heavy Weapons, are exclusively Power/Physical, through the sheer physical might needed to use them.

    The other thing is that the damage increments seem slightly high. I had pictured the Iron Knuckle Axe, which was 2 hearts, to be pretty much the highest an increment would go, and with tiny things like knives being only 1/4 hearts.

    And I'm not sure if you fully understand the "Spiritual" Attribute (that shit needs a better name, yo.) Spiritual governs social interaction, intuition, connection to the spirits of the land, and somesuch.

    Just my 2 cents, anyway.
    >> Anonymous 05/25/11(Wed)23:25 No.15053692
    Well then, should all weapon's be Physical since Spiritual is more of a social thing?
    I could see magic being Mental or Spiritual, but even bows and ranged weapons seem to be Mental or Physical.

    Also, yeah, sorry. I kinda only skimmed over the last couple of threads. These were just rough ideas.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/25/11(Wed)23:28 No.15053720
    So far from what I see, each item group has a specific Attribute, with only Virtues varying (except shit like Heavy)

    Weapon (swords, axes, maces, daggers) - Physical
    Bows - Physical
    Magic - Mental
    Instruments - Spiritual
    Rods - Spiritual
    Tools - Mental
    Heavy (Big hammers, greataxes, other huge shit) - Physical
    Armor - Physical

    and so on.
    >> Anonymous 05/25/11(Wed)23:31 No.15053760
    How are you determining the virtue/attribute associations? It looks completely arbitrary.
    Melee - Physical
    Ranged - Mental
    Magic - Spiritual
    That at least makes some kind of logical sense. I don't know about linking weapons to specific virtues, but if I had to I would probably do it along these lines:
    Big damage - Power
    Close quarters - Courage
    Requires strategy (hits multiple targets, risk of hitting allies) - Wisdom
    Whichever one of those is the most prevalent factor for the weapon is which virtue it gets linked to. The problem is that it's tricky to quantify any of those things, especially for wisdom.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/25/11(Wed)23:33 No.15053785
    What you have to remember is that not all items are weapons, since so, so many items in LoZ have combat applications and non-combat applications. For example, a Boomerang is in the Tool category, but makes an effective weapon when needed. A hookshot may not be the best weapon, but is one of the most important tools possible.

    before statting gear, we first need to categorize it. for example, Din's Fire would go under Magic, Ball&Chain under Heavy, Bombchu under Bomb, and so on. Then we don't have to list the Attribute needed for each and every item.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/25/11(Wed)23:36 No.15053814
    >Ranged - Mental
    >Magic - Spiritual
    We may need to rename Spiritual; way too much confusion is happening regarding what it dictates.

    >Spiritual Power indicates you have a strong soul and can influence people and well as natural spirits. Exerting force. Spiritual Wisdom shows understanding and knowledge of subtle forces, be they holding someone's attention in a conversation or feeling for the presence of a fairy. Manipulating force. Spiritual Courage is more inward, drawing people to you ("please help me!") and naturally bringing subtle flows of magic and thus faeries and the like to you.

    actual, active magic use, summon Din's Fire or lightning bolt's n' shit are keyed to Mental.
    >> Anonymous 05/25/11(Wed)23:41 No.15053871
    i did suggest in the last thread calling them "Body, Mind, and Spirit" in the last thread. My reasoning then was that if felt less like categories and more like essential aspects of your character, but now I think it might also be a little less ambiguous. At least the noun "spirit" has a completely different connotation to me than the adjective "spiritual".
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/25/11(Wed)23:44 No.15053900
    Personally, I thought that using 1/2 heart as the baseline minimum damage might be fair, but I might be underestimating the number of attacks a beginning character will be under.

    How will healing work? Will players need to smash open rocks and pottery to find hearts? It might be an interesting mechanic in long fights... but it still seems silly.

    I imagine groups will be able to choose what kind of settings they want to use. Not everyone will want a Wind Waker game, which is why Rito haven't been given much attention yet (but hopefully will.)

    At the same time, I don't think anyone will be clamoring for Tokay stats anytime soon.
    >> Anonymous 05/25/11(Wed)23:45 No.15053914
    Weapons should be exclusively physical. Possibly there could be a purchasable ability to let you substitute Mental for certain things, like bows (a la Zen Archery in D&D), but as a baseline it should all be Physical.

    Power should always the be the applicable virtue for |heavy| weapons, no exceptions, and as far as ranged weapons go should probably only apply to heavy hurled weapons like throwing axes and hammers. Courage has a pretty wide showing in both ranged and melee weapons in pretty much all categories except |heavy|. Wisdom should primarily be just for ranged weapons and the tricky finesse-type weapons like you'd see for a fencer or a Shiekah -- overall, the options for Wisdom should be pretty sparse compared to Power & Courage when it comes to melee.

    |Magic| is pretty much exclusively Mental (Spiritual being for more subtle magic, like with |instruments|), with offensive magic falling under the domain of Power and defensive/healing magic under Wisdom.

    Look over the Stats and Skills sections on the wiki, especially the stats, and you should get a better idea of where things fall.
    >> Anonymous 05/25/11(Wed)23:52 No.15053993
    Alright, Let's try this again. Obviously still going to need a lot of revision.

    Melee Weapons (Physical):
    -Power: Axes, Maces, Gauntlets
    -Courage: Swords, Daggers, Unarmed
    -Wisdom: Spears, Picks, Quarterstaff(Deku Stick)
    Heavy (Physical):
    -Power: Ball and Chain, Hammer, Great Sword/Axe
    Ranged (Mental):
    -Power:Bombs, Bombchu, Cannon
    -Courage: Boomerang, Needles, Hookshot
    -Wisdom: Bows, Seed Shooter, Slingshot

    Magic (Spiritual):
    -Power: Din's Fire, Fire Rod, Creation and Destruction Magic
    -Courage: Farore's Wind, Wind Rod, Travel and Enchantment Magic
    -Wisdom: Nayru's Love, Ice Rod, Healing and Protection Magic

    <Didn't include tool because anything that is both a weapon and a tool seems to fall under another category as well.>
    >> Anonymous 05/25/11(Wed)23:55 No.15054027
    I can't say I see how "Mind" and "Spirit" is any more obvious in terms of which stat magic falls under than "Mental" and "Spiritual". I think the confusion would remain either way.

    The easiest way to clear up the confusion would be to switch Spiritual back to Social, but I personally would rather not because then things that currently fit in that category (such as perception of subtle details, currently governed by Spiritual Wisdom) don't really fit anymore, and I feel like if we take that stuff out it turns it into the go-to dump stat for powergamers, not unlike Cha in D&D 3.5. Unless you're specifically going for a socialite or |instrument| build, there's little incentive to put ranks in Social. But Spiritual broadens the horizons of the attribute enough to make a case for investing in it even if you aren't planning to be the party face.
    >> Anonymous 05/25/11(Wed)23:57 No.15054042
    You may have noticed i pretty much went bludgeoning = power, slashing = courage, piercing = wisdom. I figure they require Brute force, close up finesse and precision planning respectively making each a good fit.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/25/11(Wed)23:58 No.15054057

    I like it.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)00:03 No.15054115
    I tend to think of Spirit as the following definitions
    >temper or disposition of mind or outlook especially when vigorous or animated
    >a lively or brisk quality in a person or a person's actions
    >a mental disposition characterized by firmness or assertiveness
    but, yeah, you're right
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)00:08 No.15054157
    looks good. daggers could just as easily fall under wisdom though. they tend to be piercing weapons after all. perhaps you could distinguish between knives and daggers where knives are slashing (courage) and daggers are piercing (wisdom).
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)00:08 No.15054162
    That's closer to the mark, though I think it could use a few tweaks.

    Needles should go under Wisdom. Light, easily concealable, very finesse-based -- that's a Wisdom weapon. If it's something Shiek is likely to use, odds are it falls under Wisdom.

    I'm not sure how you're getting "picks" under Wisdom, unless you're talking ice picks rather than mining picks. The latter is usually what I think of when I hear "pick" in reference to a weapon, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. And a mining pick is definitely a Power weapon.

    And while I can see why you think |ranged| = Mental and |magic| = Spiritual, I'm still not exactly sold on that interpretation, mostly because it leaves Mental Power with diddly shit. Bows you can pretty well justify as a primarily mental weapon; throwing hammers, not so much. And since pretty much the only thing Mental Power has going for it according to the original paradigm is offensive magic, moving magic to Spiritual leaves Mental Power a very lonely place indeed.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)00:11 No.15054194
    how about ranged weapons = mental and thrown weapons = physical
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)00:12 No.15054197
    Wouldn't Mental be very important for a lot of skills and item creation too though?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)00:14 No.15054219
    Hm, and given your explanation there I must concede that you're also right, at least in principle.

    While I hardly think it will clear up the first-glance confusion about where magic lies, I can definitely agree that it will help make it at least a little bit more intuitive. Every little bit helps, anyway. I can get behind this name change if the consensus swings that way.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)00:15 No.15054229
    the spiritual attribute doesn't really fall under the purview of combat anyway, so I think it'd be safe to have magic weapons (rods and such) be mental and reserve spiritual for non-combat items like instruments, as I believe was originally intended
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)00:19 No.15054258
    Mental itself will be, yes, but not in combination with Power. And the idea is that every Virtue/Attribute combo has something useful to do.
    >> Perverted (and Paranoid) White Knight 05/26/11(Thu)00:21 No.15054281
    Why switching the Social attribute into Spiritual?
    That adds some embellishment and baggage that I do not really feel appropriate compared to the other two Attributes, and almost certainly pulls most Magic-related checks away from Mental.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)00:22 No.15054288
    I agree with this.

    Although you could have some fun mid-battle stuff with spiritual things anyways.

    Ocarina gives haste/slow effects to nearby allies and enemies (extra action or one less action)
    Flute gives winds all about to knock down foes
    Harp gives slow regeneration to nearby allies
    Violin can causes growth of cover or slows enemy movement
    Guitar would give a movement bonus to allies
    Drums give damage bonus to nearby allies
    Horn give armor bonus to nearby allies
    Singing gives magic regeneration to nearby allies
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)00:23 No.15054298
    Yes, I agree. Spiritual really shouldn't be involved in combat beyond things like feints and intimidation. And probably noticing the Shiekah sneaking up behind you, since I believe we were going to have perception-type stuff fall under Spiritual Wisdom.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/26/11(Thu)00:23 No.15054307
    We had this discussion threads ago.

    I think the consensus was that Social was too narrow of a subject and Spiritual fit the theme of the virtues better.

    >political Chrodatl
    >> Sir Scribe 05/26/11(Thu)00:25 No.15054319
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    Please to be having a merry christmas. Drew the lineart for the Knuckle, couldnt fit the Goron on the page, said "Fuck it" and crapped this out. I'll re-draw it when I'm conscious again.

    Alright, lemme take a crack at this.

    |Weapon| - Physical
    |Armor| - Physical
    |Rod| - either Mental or Spiritual, I can't decide
    |Instrument| - Spiritual
    |Tool| - Black Sheep. Tool is so various that it could be anything.
    |Bomb| -Mental
    |Heavy| - Physical
    |Bow| - Physical or Mental
    |Shield| - Physical
    |Magic| - Mental
    |Stealth| - Physical or Spiritual
    |Acrobatics| - Physical
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)00:26 No.15054325
    Not to shoehorn in D&D mechanics or anything and I'm sure this has been discused before in a previous thread but the way I see it is this:

    Power/Physical=Strength+Constitution also Fortitude
    Courage/Spiritual=Charisma+Wisdom also Will
    Wisdom/Mental=Intelligence+Dexterity also Reflex
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)00:31 No.15054376
    This was debated in a previous thread, and the general consensus was that instruments should be kept to predominantly non-combat roles. There can be some room for creative application of songs (such as using the Sun Song to stun ReDeads in OoT), but overall instruments should be more for utility and puzzle-solving than actual combat.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)00:34 No.15054397
    T.C.G. has it right. Basically, it fits the setting better and helps round out a socially-focused character to have some usefulness away from civilization.

    If I may pull some quotes from the earlier thread:
    >Songs are a very mystical, flavorful thing, and care must be taken to prevent them from being used for cheesy things. Take the communication song example above. Let's say it only works if you're using it to contact the person who taught you the song, like the act of teaching the song was an important (if rather informal) part of the ritual. It's not that the melody is specifically magical, but that there is a certain magic to all songs, and those who are particularly Wise and Spiritual can tap into that magic.

    >Music can carry memories and feelings, and those memories and feelings can be made real. A peaceful song can heal weary souls (Song of Healing), or a troubled and driving melody can darken the sky (Song of Storms). A song can prove your feelings of loyalty (Zelda's Lullaby). Shared memories of music reconnects you with old friends (Saria's Song), and a song written to mark a memorable occasion can even return you - or others - to its location (Ocarina of Time's warp songs).

    >Spiritual Power indicates you have a strong soul and can influence people and well as natural spirits. Exerting force. Spiritual Wisdom shows understanding and knowledge of subtle forces, be they holding someone's attention in a conversation or feeling for the presence of a fairy. Manipulating force. Spiritual Courage is more inward, drawing people to you ("please help me!") and naturally bringing subtle flows of magic and thus faeries and the like to you.

    >I like the idea of Social having a use when you're at the bottom of a dungeon with just other player characters - it becomes the realm of subtle magics and detection.

    >outside of towns, cities and farms, it's knowing how to tell the difference between pollen in the air and a fairy trail.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)00:36 No.15054424
    So, after looking through the wiki, am I the only one that thinks Kokiri got a bit of the short end of the stick?

    Weren't they a chosen people of Farore, and not the Deku? And is being able to identify weakpoints going to be a huge thing in every (boss) battle or is this kind of just a stand in ability for their fairy friends? I assume we're also deciding that they can leave their forest without dying.

    I wanted to start stating out some monsters but I realized Zelda has such a wonderful variety of core monsters that it doesn't really need to be done to any great extent. Maybe later on in the project.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)00:47 No.15054531
    This seems like a good fit. Except for Spiritual applying to |stealth|; I can't for the life of me figure out how that's supposed to work.

    Also, Sir Scribe, when you have a chance you might want to look at the wiki; it seems the skill divisions as agreed upon by the community have changed a bit since you last checked.

    Taking my own crack at it using the skill list on the wiki:
    |Shield| -- Physical; predominantly Courage
    |Brawl| (gauntlets, grappling, unarmed, etc.) -- Physical; mix of Virtues
    |Heavy| -- Physical; exclusively Power
    |Melee| (primarily one-handed) -- Physical; mix of Virtues
    |Stave| (includes rods when used as a melee weapon and polearms light enough not to fall under Heavy) -- Physical; mix of Virtues
    |Ranged| -- Physical or Mental; mostly Wisdom and Courage, except for heavy thrown weapons
    |Tool| -- grab bag
    |Instrument| -- Spiritual; probably leaning toward Wisdom?
    |Magic| (includes use of rods' magical capabilities) -- Mental; Power for offense, Wisdom for healing/defense

    |Alchemy| (includes both creation and use of bombs) -- Mental (crafting, use of bombchu/bombling) or Physical (throwing a bomb); no idea on Virtues
    |Craft| -- Mental; Wisdom
    |Acrobatics| -- Physical; Wisdom
    |Stealth| -- Physical; Wisdom
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)00:47 No.15054535
    I thought that this made sense pretty well. Heavy weapons fall under power, some melee weapons courage, adventuring weapons/items courage, and magical or difficult to use weapons under wisdom.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)00:51 No.15054570
    Weak spots are intended to be a huge part of boss fights, in keeping with the video games, but even so, you're right, the Kokiri are getting shafted at the current stage of development. But the races are still under development, just like the rest of the system, so it's not like it can't be fixed. The stuff for races on the wiki is best taken as a sort of placeholder for the moment; once we get the underlying mechanical framework of the system in working order then we can really set to work on the races in earnest.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)00:57 No.15054611
    i would go with
    |Ranged| -- Mental; Wisdom
    |Thrown| -- Physical; Wisdom for light and medium, Power for heavy

    I just don't really see how Courage applies to ranged combat.
    I also liked the idea of separating melee weapons into bludgeioning/heavy = power, slashing = courage, and piercing = wisdom
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)00:58 No.15054618
    In terms of virtues it's actually not too bad, it's the rest of it (especially attributes) where the guy went off.

    Though I must say, I laughed at the mention of "Tome" in the list as a light weapon. Picturing a wizened old sage beating down a Stalfos with big old book...priceless!

    Probably not what was intended, but an amusing mental image nonetheless.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)01:02 No.15054659
    >I just don't really see how Courage applies to ranged combat.

    Personally, I feel like the bow has connotations of valor and heroism that would qualify it for a Courage-based weapon, especially if you think in terms of horseback riding, plus it's one of Link's most iconic weapons apart from the good old sword & board. But I can definitely see it being a Wisdom-dominant weapon, particularly given that it seems to be Zelda's weapon of choice.

    >I also liked the idea of separating melee weapons into bludgeioning/heavy = power, slashing = courage, and piercing = wisdom

    This isn't bad as a rule of thumb, but there will definitely be a number of cases where it won't apply. For instance, just to name something off the top of my head, a knight's lance is certainly a piercing weapon, but you'd be daft to make it based on Wisdom.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)01:03 No.15054665
    As the original poster of that weapon bracket, that was exactly what I intended.

    Gotta have something to do when you're out of magic and can't use that quake medallion.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/26/11(Thu)01:04 No.15054677
    >I just don't really see how Courage applies to ranged combat.

    Archey seems very Courage-centric to me. See also: Robin Hood.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)01:06 No.15054708
    Well then, that is pretty damn awesome. That needs to make it into the finished product. With the Wisdom/Mental base and everything.

    Does that make sense? Fuck no! Is it awesomely hilarious without disturbing game balance? Hell yes!
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)01:07 No.15054726
    I second this. I want to be a wizrobe with no magic beating shit down with tomes.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)01:09 No.15054737
    It could easily be based off of any of the virtues. A good old english longbow had a draw strength of like 120lbs, 55kg, so it could easily be placed under Power. Samurai babes or Zelda also might use the bow in a calm and orchestrated, practiced manner. Might be Wisdom then. And courage. Zelda, Robin-hood, etc.

    If I had to place it under something I'd go with Power or Courage.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)01:09 No.15054743
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)01:11 No.15054758
    >Personally, I feel like the bow has connotations of valor and heroism
    what I mean is that striking from a distance is much more of a tactical decision than a courageous one. there's nothing inherently courageous about using a bow. i could just as easily be seen as cowardly.

    >knight's lance is certainly a piercing weapon, but you'd be daft to make it based on Wisdom
    true, but I think a lance would also qualify as a heavy weapon, which would make it based on power.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/26/11(Thu)01:11 No.15054759
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    Well, we may not have Skills finished, but at least we've got everyone on the same page now.

    hehe... "page".
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)01:14 No.15054787
    I think you're looking at it the wrong way. sure you can think of courageous characters who are associated with using a bow, but that doesn't mean that their use of the bow is courageous. see >>15054758
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)01:17 No.15054816
    I also agree on wisdom for bows. Especially when we start getting into magic arrows and shit.

    Even though it is a classic symbol of the Hero of Courage he embodies all of the virtues at some point or another.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)01:20 No.15054845
    not to mention the main weapon associated with the Hero of Courage is the Master Sword and the bow is used more as a puzzle solving tool
    >> Library Lass 05/26/11(Thu)01:20 No.15054851
    Agreed. Bows should probably be Wisdom-primary, especially given the association with Zelda.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)01:28 No.15054959
    So, we should probably nail this down to a finalized agreed upon weapon set eventually but for now:

    >Boomerang also to Wisdom or Stay Courage?

    >What in-battle devices can we add for Spiritual attributes?

    >Should we break up our weapon skills into more categories? Right now we have |Brawl|, |Heavy|, |Melee|, |Stave|, |Ranged|, |Tool|, |Magic| . Should we start assigning what is associated with what?
    >> Sir Scribe 05/26/11(Thu)01:29 No.15054976
    >Should we break up our weapon skills into more categories? Right now we have |Brawl|, |Heavy|, |Melee|, |Stave|, |Ranged|, |Tool|, |Magic| . Should we start assigning what is associated with what?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)01:32 No.15055007
    Do they really warrant their own category?
    I guess we could make bombs, bombchu, cannons, and some other stuff all fall under there. Could also do tools though.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)01:33 No.15055016
    I think we needs a "thrown" category now that we are making that distinction for ranged weapons.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/26/11(Thu)01:36 No.15055046
    I personally think Bombs, Bombchus, Water Bombs, Cannons, Bomblings, Power Kegs, etc., belong in their own category.

    partly because one of my potential beta-tester players requests a bomb expert character.
    >> Quick Character Test Temporary Combat Namefag 05/26/11(Thu)01:38 No.15055065
    rolled 4, 2, 5, 1, 5, 6, 5 = 28

    Making a basic character from what we have so far, I'll try and minmax lightly so we can figure out where the flaws might be.

    Hiro, Hylian (based off of one of Tetra's pirates)

    Power:3 Wisdom:1 Courage:4
    Physical:4 Mental:2 Spiritual:1
    [Melee]3 [Acrobatics]2

    I have 9 Hearts, from (1 + Courage + physical)

    Already, my average sword attack is 7k4, rolling (physical + melee) and keeping (courage).

    Going from the earlier thread, each attack success means I do 1/2 Heart of damage, meaning I can possibly deal 4 Hearts with one action, or even 8 Hearts(!) if I attack twice. (This is probably unlikely to happen unless my opponent rolls poorly.

    Lets say that Hiro has to fight an Octorok on the ship early on. (since we don't have stats, I'll assume the octorok has 5k3 for his passive defense.)

    Hiro rolls:
    >> Quick Character Test Temporary Combat Namefag 05/26/11(Thu)01:40 No.15055095
    rolled 6, 4, 3, 6, 2 = 21


    Hiro keeps 6, 5, 5, and 5.

    The octorok rolls defense...
    >> Sir Scribe 05/26/11(Thu)01:41 No.15055107
    What's his mass? we already finished that mechanic. unimportant, but lacking a mechanic we've already finished bugs me.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)01:43 No.15055131
    So, is there a reason we decided a tie goes in the attacker's favor? Because it seems to me like that is going to make combat bloody and brutal with a lot of ties and people will die from very few attacks.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)01:46 No.15055151
    my first thought when I saw that was that it's usually the other way around (tie goes to defender) but I guess the decision is based on the target number mechanic: rolling the target number or higher is a hit.
    >> Quick Character Test Temporary Combat Namefag 05/26/11(Thu)01:47 No.15055159
    rolled 5, 3, 3, 5, 2, 2 = 20


    Wow, way better than I was expecting. The octorok keeps 6, 6 and 4

    6 = 6
    5 < 6
    5 > 4

    If we assume that the attacker's Ties and unopposed dice are successes, then Hiro scores 2 successes against his opponent, dealing 1 Heart of damage. (Out of an estimate of 3 for an Octorok.)

    Hiro takes his second action this turn to defend, since he's not going anywhere. Sadly, he doesn't have many points in Wisdom. He rolls 6k1 [(Physical + Acrobatics) k (Wisdom)]
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)01:48 No.15055170
    I feel like it should be the other way around. Especially when defense rolls are going to be really low if you don't devote your action to defense.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)01:50 No.15055191
    >If we assume that the attacker's Ties and unopposed dice are successes, then Hiro scores 2 successes
    that would be 3 successes

    6 = 6 success
    5 < 6
    5 > 4 success
    5 success
    >> Quick Character Test Temporary Combat Namefag 05/26/11(Thu)01:51 No.15055218
    rolled 6, 6, 2, 6 = 20

    Mass is 5, I assume. I left it out since I didn't know what it did yet.

    So his highest roll is a 5, which is now being compared against the Octorok's attack once it's turn rolls around. (4k3 for whatever reason, I'm trying to use average-ish numbers)

    >THE sconsom
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)01:55 No.15055254
    base mass for Hylians is 4
    what did we determine on how base mass could be altered?
    i would be in favor of physical 1 = -1 mass, physical 5 = +1 mass, and physical 6 = +2 mass, with heavy armor adding to mass. I don't remember what was decided on in previous threads
    >> Quick Character Test Temporary Combat Namefag 05/26/11(Thu)01:56 No.15055273
    Hurr. You're right, 1.5 Hearts.


    Aaand it looks like the Octorok did just as many Hearts of damage to Hiro (assuming it deals 1/2 a heart too).

    6 > 5

    So after one round both combatants dealt the same amount of damage to each other.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)01:57 No.15055279
    is anybody else in favor of this?
    >> Sir Scribe 05/26/11(Thu)02:01 No.15055320
    Players may choose to alter their race's base mass by 1 upon creation.

    Mass is unaffected by Virtues or Attributes.

    Fine with me, I consider it semantics anyway.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)02:13 No.15055440
    that's cool. while we're on the subject of mass, and since mass affects movement, what actual distance would a movement of 1 represent? 5 feet?
    >> Library Lass 05/26/11(Thu)02:15 No.15055466
    Seems kind of pointless to me.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/26/11(Thu)02:58 No.15055927
    That seems to be the baseline, though it could also be 1 meter. If people want to use Zelda sprites to make dungeon maps, a meter seems closer to the size of those tiles than 5 feet.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)03:17 No.15056102
    1 meter sounds good. Makes it nice and simple. In the last thread I think Sir Scribe said that movement would be 12 minus mass, which would make the average movement 8 meters (roughly 25 feet). I think a more realistic average for walking speed would be closer to 6 meters (almost right at 20 feet) or 6 inches if you're using models to represent your characters in combat or six 1 in. x 1 in. squares if you're using something like a grid or dungeon tiles. so maybe we could bring it down to movement = 10 - mass?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)03:43 No.15056328
    Just chiming in to say I support the Body/Mind/Spirit rename. They're more succinct, they're nouns (thus matching the virtues - consistency), and we get rid of some of the magical connotations of "spiritual".
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)07:07 No.15057486
    Spiritual technically doesn't have magic connotations, though.

    I think adjectives do fit better. Contrasts them with virtues, and gives us the Physical Power, Physical Courage, Physical Wisdom convention of naming, which sounds a hell of a lot better than Body Courage or Body/Wisdom.

    Also spirit doesn't mean that, anyway.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)07:19 No.15057615
    If there are to be normal weapon attacks used with Wisdom, those should be really weak. Honestly, I think I'd prefer it if there were none. I don't see why all virtues need to have the same kind of options. I'll repeat the sneak attack suggestion I did last thread (or was it two threads ago? I don't remember anymore)

    Attacking an enemy that is unaware of you lets you ADD your Wisdom to your kept value for the attack. Could potentially require an ability, but I don't think that would be necessary. Enemy unawareness would generally be acquired through Stealth, by means of sneaking up on them or ambushing them, for instance, but of course there would be other possibilities. This gives the Physical Wisdom character a strong combat option while not treading on the other virtues' toes, and it also gives just about anybody a small benefit (since minimum Wisdom is 1) in case they manage to catch their enemy off-guard.

    We could have abilities that let you use this in other situations, such as feints. Would allow things like swashbuckler stereotypes, which I say wouldn't fall under Wisdom, but Courage/Wisdom.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)07:47 No.15057852
    >Spiritual technically doesn't have magic connotations, though.
    Yes it does. When I see the word spiritual I think of spirituality, religion, and faith. In the context of the Zelda universe I think of gods, spirits, and magic, which is not what is meant to be conveyed by the attribute.

    >Also spirit doesn't mean that, anyway.
    Doesn't mean what?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)08:06 No.15057949
    >Spiritual technically doesn't have magic connotations, though.

    In the Zelda Universe it definitely does
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)09:12 No.15058287
    Adding Wisdom to sneak attacks isn't a bad idea, but there's nothing wrong with using it for certain weapons.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)09:59 No.15058611
    >true, but I think a lance would also qualify as a heavy weapon, which would make it based on power.
    A lance may be a "heavy" weapon in the sense that it takes two hands to use and deals a fuckton of damage, but it doesn't really fit our sense of "heavy" for this game. And the strong association with valor and knighthood put it firmly in the Courage camp.
    It's not really your own brute force going into a lance attack anyway; it's your momentum from your badass "I'm gonna charge straight in there and wreck shit!" tactic.

    >1 meter
    Yes! Metric ftw! America can suck it!
    [nospoilersontg]And that's coming from a born-and-raised American.[/nospoilersontg]
    I like that idea for sneak attacks, and I agree that Wisdom's options for melee combat should be pretty limited.
    Did we want to keep the rule of having the "fight defensively" option (-1k0 on attack to gain +1k0 on all defense rolls that round) switch you to using Wisdom, at least for non-heavy melee weapons?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)10:01 No.15058621
    >I agree that Wisdom's options for melee combat should be pretty limited.

    Ah, sorry, I should have added there, "but there definitely should still be options." It makes sense that, for instance, a rapier or an assassin's dirk should fall under Wisdom. Or a chain-based weapon, like a kusari-gama or something? That feels very Wisdom-y to me.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)10:09 No.15058680
    I don't like that courage doesn't have any in-battle options. Yes you could also take some power or some wisdom but really? All of the games have been CENTERED on an exemplar of courage and he seemed to do alright in a fight. Not to mention that he wasn't the most social of characters...
    >> Greenhorn Game Designer 05/26/11(Thu)10:25 No.15058793
    Combat suggestion:

    Ties to the defender, not the attacker.

    Perhaps have a buff or debuff that switches these as a spell or song
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)10:28 No.15058816
    wat? I think most melee attacks aside from heavy weapons are courage based. i'm not really sure how much of what has been in this thread has actually been accepted though, so I could be wrong
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)10:30 No.15058827
    Er, sorry. I meant spiritual. Mixed up my virtues with my attributes.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)10:32 No.15058853
    I'm okay with this. As it is it's possible some of the weaker starting characters to die in one hit, so it's a good idea to give them more of a fighting chance when it comes to defense.
    >> Greenhorn Game Designer 05/26/11(Thu)10:37 No.15058891
    I'm looking at another game that uses linear comparison: Risk. Ties are always given to the defender, otherwise you end up with attacker winning by sheer numbers.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)10:37 No.15058896
    well spiritual is pretty much just social, so the extend of it's combat applications would be stuff like bluff, taunt, and intimidate. sure you can find creative ways to use it in combat, it just doesn't really apply to weapons. you could maybe have a feint ability with spiritual as a prerequisite that lowers an opponents defense for your next attack, i guess
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)10:39 No.15058912
    I agree completely (not sure if that was clear in my previous post)
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)10:44 No.15058958
    Thirding this. Defender advantage is a must-have.

    Makes combat a little less imbalanced for the heavy hitters that way so they don't just go "I only need one action to end this fight with my min-maxed Power Darknut"
    >> try putting the name in the right field this time Temporary Combat Namefag 05/26/11(Thu)10:51 No.15059018
    I too, agree.

    What else needs changing for the combat itself? Are there any glaring issues that stand out from my test?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)10:53 No.15059031
    Other than that, it seems to be in order. What needs the most work now?

    Damage for weapons/weapon groups?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)11:25 No.15059252
    Light Armor (Physical)
    -Woven Cloth (0 dice, wind resist)
    -Tanned Leather (0 dice, electric resist)
    -Padded Leather (1 dice, electric resist)
    -Deku Vestment (1 dice, fire weak, water/ice resist)
    -Deku Shield (1 dice, fire weak, water/ice resist)

    Medium Armor (Physical, -1 Movement, -1 Acrobatics)
    -Coiled Chain Armor (1 dice, results from stored ball and chain, penalties stack)
    -Darknut Half Plate (1 dice, can be converted)
    -Chain Mail (2 dice)
    -Iron Chest Plate (2 dice)
    -Stalfos Regalia (2 dice)
    -Iron Shield (1 dice)
    -Gauntlet (1 dice, occupies shield slot)

    Heavy Armor (Physical, -2 Movement, -2 Acrobatics)
    -Goron Steel Raiment (2 dice, allows rolling)
    -Darknut Full Plate (3 dice, can be converted)
    -Gerudo Black Armor (3 dice)
    -Iron Knuckle Full Suit (4 dice)
    -Great Shield (2 dice)
    -Biggoron Shield (4 dice, two actions to use)
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)11:37 No.15059347
    Dice? Armor was supposed to reduce damage increments from incoming attacks.

    >Doesn't mean what?
    The same as spiritual. Having spirit and being spiritual are completely different things.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)11:39 No.15059356
    Rods (Mental, Consumes X magic)
    -Ice Rod
    -Fire Rod
    -Lightning Rod
    -Wind Rod
    -Water Rod
    -----Deals 1/2 heart damage at range, double if weak to element, half if resistant
    -Dominion Rod
    -----Conjure up an Armos to fight on your behalf. Only 1 can be summoned at a time.
    -Cane of Byrna
    -----Target can keep an extra die on all defensive rolls.
    -Cane of Somaria
    -----Creates a 1m cube block dealing 1/4 heart damage to any foe within the square and forcing them backwards. Can be used again to detonate the block for 3/4 heart damage to all adjacent enemies.
    -Cane of Pacci
    -----Switches the position of two targets. Can be used on items such as bombs and pots as well.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)11:40 No.15059366
    Oops, sorry. I assumed we were adding dice to the defense pool. I'll redo it with damage reduction. Although it will probably be 1/4 heart reduction for each die I had added anyways.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)11:43 No.15059388
    >-Cane of Pacci
    >-----Switches the position of two targets. Can be used on items such as bombs and pots as well.
    I understand the reason you did it, but I feel that it'd be best left to what it actually does: flipping things over. Switching the position of two targets is kinda ridiculous for such a silly staff as the Cane of Pacci, but the silliness of flipping things over can be turned lethal when you flip things over in combat.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)11:44 No.15059404
    Wow, that was kind of a retarded post. What I meant was that I think you're selling the Cane of Pacci short, even though it's silly it has uses and to just give it an entirely different effect seems like the wrong thing to do. If you think it's that useless, leave it out entirely.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)11:48 No.15059434
    I see what you mean. That does make sense.
    -Cane of Pacci
    -----Invert a target leaving it prone and unable to defend. Deal 1/4 heart damage.
    -Sand Wand
    -----Make an area of quicksand reducing all movement through it by 3.
    -Wand of Gamelon
    -----Stun an enemy causing them to lose their next 2 actions.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)11:49 No.15059443
    >Having spirit and being spiritual are completely different things.
    which is precisely the purpose of the name change. "spiritual" was originally "social". having spirit is much more of a social trait than being spiritual. "spiritual" tends to imply mysticism, especially in a fantasy setting where magic is real, and we've already established that magic is in the realm of "mental".
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)11:50 No.15059449
    Armor doesn't affect dice in combat, it just reduces damage increments.
    Also, I think rather than straight movement penalties, armor should increase Mass (which carries inherent consequences for movement). Acrobatics skill penalties are probably a good idea though.

    Your ideas for shields don't look bad, though. Having shields add defense dice on top of what's added by Shield skill ranks would make shields a better defense than dodging, but that doesn't seem too unfair given that shields have much less use outside of combat, and that a character specced for shield use isn't going to have as good a passive defense as one specced for dodge (since passive defense is Phys/Wis, same as Acrobatics).

    Also, I just went to the wiki to update the combat rules from attack wins ties to defense wins ties...who the fuck went all weeaboo retard on the techniques? "Tiger Scrolls"? "Hidden Techniques"? That's not how this works at all...

    Fixing that shit.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)11:51 No.15059465
         File1306425113.jpg-(103 KB, 486x340, rodchenko.jpg)
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    do you know what I hate?
    constructivist-style imagery which overuses cyrillic characters, even though it is in english.
    Also, too busy - no self-respecting constructivist would have the star cutting off half the castle.
    instead there ought to be a flat background, which, due to a better source image for link, wouldn't be obscuring of our brave hero's form.

    pic related - what's that, I can't hear you over the sound of how legible i am.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)11:53 No.15059485
    tiger scrolls wtf?
    also lol fizz/wiz

    >also. ollyto
    that too, captcha
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)11:55 No.15059499

    I'm so sorry, but I had to.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)11:56 No.15059513
         File1306425416.jpg-(29 KB, 300x436, Lenin.jpg)
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    As a native Russian speaker, I'm here to say that psuedo-Cyrillic characters are guaranteed to make your poster at least 300% more glorious. For increased glory, add red-ness.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)12:02 No.15059551
    Light Armor (Physical)
    -Woven Cloth (0 heart, wind resist)
    -Tanned Leather (0 heart, electric resist)
    -Padded Leather (1/4 heart, electric resist)
    -Deku Vestment (1/4 heart, fire weak, water/ice resist)
    -Deku Shield (1/4 heart, 1 extra dice, fire weak, water/ice resist)
    -Armos Shield (1/4 heart, 1 extra dice, fire resist)

    Medium Armor (Physical, +1 Mass, -1 Acrobatics)
    -Coiled Chain Armor (1/4 heart, results from stored ball and chain, penalties stack)
    -Darknut Half Plate (1/4 heart, can be converted)
    -Chain Mail (1/2 heart)
    -Iron Chest Plate (1/2 heart)
    -Stalfos Regalia (1/2 heart)
    -Iron Shield (1/4 heart, 1 extra dice)
    -Gauntlet (1/4 heart, occupies shield slot)

    Heavy Armor (Physical, +2 Mass, -2 Acrobatics)
    -Goron Steel Raiment (1/2 heart, allows rolling)
    -Darknut Full Plate (3/4 heart, can be converted)
    -Gerudo Black Armor (3/4 heart)
    -Iron Knuckle Full Suit (1 heart, additional +1 mass)
    -Great Shield (1/2 heart, 2 extra dice)
    -Biggoron Shield (1 heart, 3 extra dice, two actions to use)
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/26/11(Thu)12:02 No.15059559

    My only concern is that the Dominion Rod shouldn't summon an Armos, but should let you take control of certain constructs. It'll get enough use without the summoning, I think.

    I haven't looked at the wiki page in a while, but it's a mess, especially regarding tags and the "Dungeon Design" box.

    Tiger Scrolls were in Minish Cap, Hidden Techniques were in Twilight Princess. Both gave you new sword moves.

    If we're having players buy their techniques, they probably don't have to go out into the world to discover them. However, they might make nice rewards, giving a free technique in return for completing some quest.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)12:07 No.15059601
    now that I look over the wiki... That's not how armor is supposed to work either, at least if the fractional damage system was agreed upon (seems kind of limiting. Some fraction won't work like that like half of a weapon that deal 1.5 hearts of damage. Are we rounding up or down?). Damnit. Well, Let me try giving this one more shot.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)12:08 No.15059605
    >Tiger Scrolls were in Minish Cap, Hidden Techniques were in Twilight Princess. Both gave you new sword moves.

    Ah, I see. I recognized the Hidden Techniques from TP, but I haven't played MC so the Tiger Scrolls bit left me going WTF?
    But at any rate, it's stupid classifying them like that since they're purchased with XP.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)12:11 No.15059633
    What? Fractional damage? I've never heard of such a thing, and I've been in this since thread 1.

    Armor is and always has been a reduction of damage increments. It says under the combat section on the wiki:
    >Armor reduces the damage increment of any weapon used against the wearer by a fixed margin, but (except for the absolute best-of-the-best armors) can never reduce a weapon's damage increment to less than 1/4 heart. For instance, if you were wearing armor with an armor rating of 2, a weapon that normally deals damage increments of 1 heart would instead deal damage in 1/2 heart increments. However, this same armor would only reduce a 1/2 heart damage increment to 1/4, and would have no effect on weapons with a 1/4 heart damage increment.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)12:12 No.15059649
    Ah, see, I read that as a rating of 2 reduces 1 heart by half to 1/2 heart, but cuts a 1/2 heart in half to 1/4 heart with 1/4 heart the minimum.

    This makes much more sense. Thank you.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)12:13 No.15059654

    Ah, wait, I think I see where you might be getting that. The way the example is worded, it makes it look like "armor rating 2" divides the damage increment by 2, when in fact it means reduce the damage increment by 2 steps (1/4 heart per step). So a weapon dealing 1.5 hearts would be reduced to 1 heart by armor with a rating of 2.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/26/11(Thu)12:14 No.15059665
    Do the Heart values from the armor are how take damage off from each success, or all the damage a single attack action?

    So if someone hits you twice with a 1 heart dealing weapon while you're wearing chainmail (which has armor of 1/2 heart), do you take 1 heart of damage or 1 1/2 hearts of damage?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)12:16 No.15059676
    As it's currently being used, it takes off for each success.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)12:18 No.15059698
    my concern is that there still seems to be a lot of trying to convert the vidya gaems into an rpg when we should be taking this opportunity to make our own Zelda universe. I mean look at how different the worlds of each of the games are from one another. I don't see why we can't do the same and just do what the games do: create a new world while maintaining important elements that are consistent throughout all of the games. instead of trying to copy/paste every item we can think of from the games, why not come up with new items?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)12:24 No.15059748
    And what if people want to use existing items from the games?

    I'm all for coming up with new stuff, but we should make sure first and foremost to do justice to the existing material. And we definitely shouldn't make significant changes to what existing items do. If we make stats for the Dominion Rod (which we should), we shouldn't change it from a controlling item to a summoning item. That's just stupid.

    Now, making a new item or spell that summons an Armos to fight for you could be pretty neat. But don't just come up with new effects and slap them on existing items.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)12:26 No.15059760
    Using shorthand H=heart, XkY is x dice keep highest Y, A is attack, D is defense, Ma is mass, Mv is move, Arm is armor if applicable.
    ===Core monsters===
    -Armos (4H 12Ma 3Mv, A 3k3 for .5H, D 5k3, Special: Explode for 2H in 2meters)
    -Beamos (5H 20Ma 0Mv, A 5k2 for .75H, D 6k2, Arm 2, Special: Attacks all targets in a line)
    -Bokoblin (3H 6Ma 6Mv, A 3k1 for .25H, D 3k1)
    -ChuChu (4H 4Ma 4Mv, A 3k2 for .25H, D 3k1, Special: Electrified)
    -Deku Baba (1H 2Ma 0Mv, A 2k1 for .25, D 1k1)
    -Dodongo (5H 10Ma 2Mv, A 4k3 for .5, D 3k2, Arm 1, Special: Fire Breath at 1meter range)
    -Floor Master (4H 5Ma 5Mv, A 5k3 for .5, D 6k2, Special: Split)
    -Keese (1H 1Ma 6Mv, A 1k1 for .25, D 3k1, Special: Flying)
    -Octoroc (3H 4Ma 4Mv, A 6k2 for .5, D 4k2, Arm .5, Special: Ranged Attack, Submerge)

    Does this style look okay? Shall I keep going or stop this craziness? Obviously everything will need balancing eventually and maybe an estimated level.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)12:26 No.15059768
    >we shouldn't change it from a controlling item to a summoning item. That's just stupid.
    agreed. that's not what I was suggesting.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/26/11(Thu)12:27 No.15059773
         File1306427227.png-(1.4 MB, 1400x1100, The_Legendary_Captain_Linebeck(...).png)
    1.4 MB
    Because there is more than enough material in the entire Zelda series.

    People can run whatever games they like. If someone wants a darker, Link to the Past sort of game, or a very high-fantasy, Ocarina or Wind Waker type game, they can do that as well. GM's can choose specific tools or items to exclude if it doesn't fit their game, or make new ones. Players can pick races and skills that fit their chosen setting.

    As it stands, people are free to create their own specific game worlds. The RPG isn't trying to constrain them to one instance of the canon. It's for the people playing the game to decide that.

    The system is here to provide a game to play in those worlds with.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)12:28 No.15059792
    >-Beamos (5H
    beamos only ever took one hit to kill. you just had to hit it in a very specific spot that was constantly moving
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)12:29 No.15059801
    True, they should just have very high defense and very low HP. Maybe also a special vulnerability to explosives or arrows.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)12:30 No.15059803
    The post you were replying to was:
    >My only concern is that the Dominion Rod shouldn't summon an Armos, but should let you take control of certain constructs. It'll get enough use without the summoning, I think.

    Unless you were referring to the second part about the clutter on the wiki page...which makes even less sense.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/26/11(Thu)12:34 No.15059827
    Not bad, I have a hard time understandingg the shorthand, but that could easily be fixed by putting the values on lines and extending the abbreviations.

    Heart:4 Mass:4 Move:4,
    Atk: 3k2, 1/4H
    Def: 3k1
    Special: Electrified

    Does this work any better?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)12:41 No.15059865
    Leever (1H 3Ma 6Mv, A 2k2 for .5, D 4k2, Special: Burrow)
    Like-Like (4H 10Ma 4Mv, A 5k2 for .75, D 4k2, Arm 1, Special: Engulf on Hit)
    Lizalfos (4H 6Ma 8Mv, A 4k3 for .5, D 6k3, Arm .5, Special: Jump)
    Peahat (2H 2Ma 5Mv, A 3k2 for .25, D 4k2, Special: Flying)
    Skulltula (4H 5Ma 5Mv, A 5k3 for .5, D 4k3, Arm .25, Special: Climb, Web)
    Stalfos (6H 6Ma 6Mv, A 6k2 for 1, D 6k3, Arm 1, Special: Rise Again)
    Poe (3H 1Ma 5Mv, A 4k2 for .5, D 2k2, Special: Phase Out)
    Tectite (2H 4Ma 6Mv, A 3k1 for .5, D 3k2, Special: Jump, Water Walk)
    Wizrobe (5H 5Ma 3Mv, A 5k4 for .75, D 3k2, Special: Teleport, Ranged Fire Attack)
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/26/11(Thu)12:41 No.15059868
    Also, I think 9 hearts for a beginning character (like Hiro) is too much. I'd like to include short combat sequences (like a handful of keese) every now and then without making every encounter a big deal.

    Maybe 6 hearts could be the cap for a maxed out, level 1 character?

    I can see 1/2 heart or even 1/4 heart being the health for a Minion-type creature like Keese.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)12:42 No.15059875
    Yeah, ultimately that's the way we will want to list them. I'm just writing them out in shorthand for now to keep the posts brief and for speed of writing it out.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)12:43 No.15059885
    We could say your maximum Hearts is character level + 5. That way he can still get that benefit longer down the line.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/26/11(Thu)12:48 No.15059910
    I could even see it being as low as 4 or 5 hearts, if most low level monsters are going to deal in 1/4 or 1/2 heart damage increments, 5 hearts is pretty good for a healthy character.

    Once we get the right feel for numbers, I want to help refine monster stats.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)12:58 No.15059977
    Moblin (5H 10Ma 4Mv, A 5k4 for .5, D 5k2, Arm .25, Special: Reach, Charge)
    Bubble (2H 3Ma 5Mv, A 3k2 for .25, D 4k1, Special: Flying, Fire)
    Wolfos: (4H 6Ma 6Mv, A 5k3 for .5, D 4k3, Special: Flanking)
    Redead (5H 6Ma 2Mv, A 4k3 for .5, D 2k2, Special: Grapple, Frightful Presence)
    Gibdos (6H 7Ma 2Mv, A 5k3 for .5, D 4k2, Arm .25, Special: Grapple, Frightful Presence)
    Mini-Moldorm (3H 5Ma 5Mv, A 4k2 for .75, D 4k2, Special: Bump)
    Gohma Spawn (2H 4Ma 5Mv, A 3k1 for .5, D 2k1, Special: Climb)
    Darknut Guardian (6H 12Ma 4Mv, A 5k2 for 1, D 4k3, Arm 1.25, Special: If armor removed halve mass and armor and double movement)
    Darknut Champion (8H 12Ma 4Mv, A 7k3 for 1, D 5k3, Arm 1.5, Special: If armor removed halve mass and armor and double movement, if weapon dropped switch to unarmed [A 7k3 for .25])
    Iron Knuckle (7H 14Ma 3Mv, A 6k3 for 1, D 5k4, Arm 2,Special: Increase Movement by 1 for every 2 hearts lost)
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)13:13 No.15060091
    Obviously these are just rough ideas but I figured it would be nice to at least have some numbers to look at and start thinking about tweaking as we test out combat.

    So we have our weapons, armor, stat system, skill system, and combat system. What should be developed next or revisited and developed further?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)13:16 No.15060120
    But we don't have character levels.

    But being spirited is largely the domain of Courage.

    Expanding Social to Spiritual had some points, but I'll be damned if Social wasn't the clearest the attribute ever was.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/26/11(Thu)13:23 No.15060186
    Tags need refining, or culling at the very least. The wiki reads like programming code.

    Tags like Blow, Immobile and especially Switch X -> Y (Z) are kind of arbitrary and unescesary.

    I'm happier with environmental tags like
    >Flammable: When exposed to fire or hit with a fire attack, the object burns up or melts after 1 round. (exceptions can be made for things like Deku Sticks)

    Or tool tags like:
    >Edged: This tool can cut ropes, cords, vines, and other similar objects.
    >Blunt, Peircing

    Some are useful, but others are named strangely or are unnescesarily definitive.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)13:27 No.15060213
    Two actions to use the shield?

    Wasn't guarding just an action that you could do once a turn?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)13:28 No.15060224
    Get rid of the tags entirely. They're unnecessary clutter.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)13:28 No.15060232
    Normally, yes. I only made the Biggoron shield take 2 because I envisioned it as an enormous blockade wall to cover yourself and an ally. Not meant to be used in close quarters combat.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)13:33 No.15060266
    So, in case I haven't made it obvious, I like stating things a lot. I've done weapons, armors, and monsters.

    What else needs some tentative stat blocks?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)14:00 No.15060449
    Offensive Magic (Mental)
    -Power: Fire, Stone, Metal
    -Courage: Wind, Wood, Electric
    -Wisdom: Ice, Water, Light

    Support Magic (Mental):
    -Power: Damage Bonus, Destroy Enemy Defenses
    -Courage: Movement Boost, Slow Enemies
    -Wisdom: Accuracy (Dice Pool) Boost, Drain Magic from Enemies

    Utility Music (Spiritual):
    As the songs mentioned before.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)14:44 No.15060750
    Posible races to add in future installments:

    and several other weird things.

    Is there a reason sheikah aren't a main race? Because they are nearly non-existant in the games themselves?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)14:59 No.15060840
    We already have delineations for magic types.

    Magic : Mental
    Damaging/debilitating magic: Power, maybe the odd Courage spell
    Offensive buffs: I could see either Power or Courage working here
    Defensive buffs: Wisdom
    Healing: Wisdom
    Utility/Travel: Courage (ie, Farore's Wind)

    Songs: Spiritual
    Limited to utility/out-of-combat use, barring creative applications (eg, Sun Song stuns ReDeads).
    >> Darth Tag 05/26/11(Thu)15:01 No.15060861

    If you strike tags down, there'll be more unnecessary clutter than you can possibly imagine.

    ...But yeah, tags still need work... Like making Wind-tagged stuff (Gust Jar, Whirlwind, etc.) affect things with an effective Mass of 0 (poison gas, fans, people wearing Hover Boots, etc.) instead of having a whole other tag.

    For the character sheets, how about having them landscape with your Heart gauge in one corner, current Rupees in another, etc.?
    Basically as much like how the games presents that information as possible.

    Should make it easier for fans of the series to jump right in, right?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)15:02 No.15060864
    The main arguments against Shiekah as a distinct race were that (1) they're virtually extinct, and (2) they seem more to be an ethnic group under Hylians rather than a distinct race.

    Gerudo would fall as an ethnic group as well, were it not for the "no males" thing.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/26/11(Thu)15:12 No.15060963
    that is an awesome idea.

    I'll try scratching some stuff out
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)15:15 No.15060979
    I would say sheikah would identical, statwise, to hylians. Same with humans if you wanted to make that particular distinction.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)15:24 No.15061068

    om a side note.

    The text spelled in the pic would be
    Fjaee Nujaile.

    Бесплатные huryle is free Hurule in russian...
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)15:42 No.15061210
         File1306438973.jpg-(32 KB, 918x515, Zelda Player Sheet.jpg)
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    I'm trying it too. This is all I've got so far though.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/26/11(Thu)15:55 No.15061298
         File1306439740.png-(168 KB, 893x585, legibility is for squares.png)
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    Here's my fevered scribblings

    If nothing else, I like the idea of hearts being shown in the upper left corner, divided into quarters. When players take damage, they shade in their hearts to show how much health they have left.

    The back should definately look like one of the quest/inventory screens and list items (and maybe techniques or other information)
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/26/11(Thu)15:57 No.15061319
    Also damage for weapons could be shown as hearts too, to save space.

    >some toftweed
    >> Sir Scribe 05/26/11(Thu)16:04 No.15061398
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    >so maybe we could bring it down to movement = 10 - mass?
    mmh... problem is that if you decide to play a heavy Goron (7 mass), youll only be moving 3 squares a turn. Maybe it could work, it just seems a bit slow. But sure, I could go for 10 - mass


    Don't forget; big armors have their own Mass score. Like super heavy Darknut armor would increase Mass by 2, maybe even 3.


    Shiekah arent really a "Race". They're just a group of people with fuckawesome ninja training.

    Also I doodled this in Economics class, as a Hylian Swordsman I'm going to try and stat once we have techniques and starting equipment decided.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)16:18 No.15061548

    Having the Virtues set in the Triforce shape (Power [Red] on top, Wisdom [Blue] on the left, Courage [Green] on the right) was how I pictured it.
    I did picture it in full colour, though, which is a bit impractical for character sheets.

    The attributes could be positioned around the sides of the Triforce, with Physical on the left (opposite Wisdom), Mental on the right (opposite Courage) and Spiritual on the bottom (opposite Power), but that could have some negative connotations that shouldn't be there...
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)16:49 No.15061842
    I like the virtue scores each in a piece of the triforce, but I agree having attributes associated with virtues in any way will end up having unintended connotations, so they should be separate.

    Even if we don't do the character sheets in color, you can always just label the triforce pieces with a "P", "W", and "C". Maybe even as a watermark?
    >> Cú Chulainn 05/26/11(Thu)17:06 No.15062002

    Minish Cap or Majora's Mask? The Minish Cap version is humanoid, but evil, while the MM version is the good but fox-shaped kind. Or would you combine the two?
    >> Cú Chulainn 05/26/11(Thu)17:09 No.15062041
    Also, as far as Sheikah go, I wouldn't mind seeing them as a race, but at the same time not making them a race wouldn't bug me either. Some games make them out to be an entire race, while others make them out to be a clan of Hylians.

    I'm interested in what I've read so far. Might help out at some point if you need it.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)17:40 No.15062380
         File1306446042.jpg-(36 KB, 918x515, Zelda Player Sheet.jpg)
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    Did a little more. Like? Dislike? Any changes? Less hearts? More Magic?
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/26/11(Thu)17:41 No.15062391
         File1306446091.jpg-(190 KB, 720x653, gsg-daniela-thelostwoods.jpg)
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    How do we feel about the numbers for level 1 characters right now?

    As it stands right now, a freshly rolled character can have a maximum of 9 hearts (around 36 hp, or 18 sword strikes) , and a skill roll of 9k4.

    I think this is too good for a beginning character, especially if they're going to be improving those skills as they progress.

    instead of 1+Courage+Physical for starting hearts, maybe we could just change it to 1+Physical or 1/2 Courage + 1/2 Physical (rounding down).

    Virtues and Attributes could be capped at 3 for beginning characters instead of 4.

    Skills could be made more expensive, or maybe giving players only 5 points to buy skills.

    As it stands, unless players are going to level very slowly, they need to start off at a much weaker state than they're currently written.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/26/11(Thu)17:46 No.15062435
    Your suggestion for hearts removes the minimum of 3, and trust me, it's been decided that characters level VERY slowly.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/26/11(Thu)17:49 No.15062478
    I like it! could use some polish, and obviously things like Mass and Equipment, but other than that lookin' good!
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)17:50 No.15062486
    Working on it now. We'll see how it ends up.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/26/11(Thu)18:00 No.15062615
    What if hearts went from 3-6 then? 1 + 1/2 Courage + 1/2 Physical keeps the minimum at 3 and keeps the maximum at 5 for beginning characters.

    Even if it's just hearts, rolled pools are going to be pretty big by the time the characters level up. If we use
    >every odd-numbered rank in a skill add to your dice rolled and every even-numbered rank adds to your dice kept.
    it might be more managable (at the cost of being less straightforward)

    >suffering diystrod
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)18:02 No.15062639
    Very nice! I especially like the icons for the attributes, that's a nice touch.

    A few thoughts on how I'd improve it:

    -More subdivisions in the magic bar. I figure you'd use it as checkboxes to be marked off as you use it up, similar to hearts, so lots of small boxes makes sense than a few larger ones (even if most probably won't end up getting that much magic points).
    - On the subject of hearts, lines dividing them into fourths would probably be helpful.
    - Attributes should go over next to virtues
    - Rupees should go in a bottom corner, like they are on-screen in the games.
    >> Sir Scribe 05/26/11(Thu)18:06 No.15062698

    >every odd-numbered rank in a skill add to your dice rolled and every even-numbered rank adds to your dice kept.

    hm.... could work. I forget, have we decided that defense based skills (Shield and Dodge) are only taken into account if you actually take an action to defend? and that passive is only Attribute/Virtue?

    And we want to look out for loss of straightforwardness; the system is hard enough to explain to new people.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)18:07 No.15062714
    This is probably just nitpicking, but shouldn't Hylians have (limited) telepathy instead of +1 virtue? Or is that only for certain special Hylians?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)18:08 No.15062719
    >1 + 1/2 Courage + 1/2 Physical
    I like it. It feels more appropriate for hearts to be based more on the containers and pieces you acquire in your adventures rather than your stats. Rounding up with this formula keeps the minimum of 3 without giving characters loads of hearts right off the bat.

    >every odd-numbered rank in a skill add to your dice rolled and every even-numbered rank adds to your dice kept.

    I thought we'd agreed on that already? At the very least, we certainly agreed that we can't have all skill ranks contributing to dice rolled. That'll cause all kinds of mechanical problems with the probabilities and such.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)18:11 No.15062748
    >I forget, have we decided that defense based skills (Shield and Dodge) are only taken into account if you actually take an action to defend? and that passive is only Attribute/Virtue?

    That seems to be the consensus, yes.

    >And we want to look out for loss of straightforwardness; the system is hard enough to explain to new people.

    Agreed, though I think we can all agree that given the choice between a slightly more confusing system and one that simply doesn't work, the former is certainly more preferable.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)18:12 No.15062755
    Hylians with Telepathy ???

    explain you self
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)18:15 No.15062789

    LTTP has Zelda and Sahasrala contact you with telepathy. Something like precognition occurs in OOT. There are other examples, but I can't recall the specifics right now.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)18:15 No.15062795
    I really like how this is developing.

    Please tell me the wiki gets updated with some of this too :D
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)18:22 No.15062884
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    some of these monsters have a large heart pool, and it seems to ignore the blue red and sometimes green powerscale monsters have in the 2d games. also some monsters should be straight up invulnerable to damage without their destroying mechanic. if an enemy is immune to frontal attack in the game it shouldnt just have a giant healthpool it should be immune from all frontal attacks
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)18:27 No.15062934
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    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/26/11(Thu)18:30 No.15062956
    I think it's a given that bosses will have to be defeated with some environmental and item-based rigamarole to make them vulnerable, at which point the character(s) will have at least a round's worth of time to unload attacks upon it.

    Interestingly, Zelda Wiki refers to this as a Critical Point.

    >rojoregi languages
    ...Captcha thinks that the Book of Mudora could be used to solve puzzles.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)18:35 No.15062996
    im just saying octorocks have 3hearts and they are one shottable in zelda one with the wooden sword
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)18:39 No.15063034
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    ug i mean octork
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)18:42 No.15063059
    I know it's kind of nit-picking, but .jpg is for photos. Drawings and charts usually look better in .png
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)18:45 No.15063079
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    didnt make it, and 4chan doesnt detect a duplicate image
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/26/11(Thu)18:48 No.15063109
    The creator of those statblocks himself said that the numbers needed refining, and we'll get to them all in time.

    Personally, I think 1-2 hearts for an Octorok is a fair amount of health.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)18:49 No.15063116
    if 1 heart is 1 shottable then ya
    >> Race and Defense Guy 05/26/11(Thu)18:50 No.15063127
    I like this, except for the landscape design. But tha'ts just me. Also, Hearts need t obe divided into quarters so they can be ticked off from right-to-left as damage is taken, to save on erasing ala NWoD's left-to-right health track. This is why I had intially suggested a circle or box beneath each Heart to fill in completely to know which hearts are in use and which haven't been completed by a Heart Container or Pieces of Heart.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)18:53 No.15063146
         File1306450397.png-(23 KB, 918x758, Zelda Player Sheet.png)
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    How about now?
    >> Race and Defense Guy 05/26/11(Thu)18:59 No.15063193
    Cool! :) One additional thing I had thought of, how about putting a character creation summary at the bottom of the sheet, so that there's a bit of a cheat sheet to virtue/attribute/skill assignments, starting Rupees or equipmnt, and such?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)19:01 No.15063210
    Two hearts is pretty one-shottable as it stands, for that matter. One heart is pretty much guaranteed death upon contact with a decently skilled warrior.

    >Virtues and Attributes could be capped at 3 for beginning characters instead of 4.

    I don't like it.
    At 4 points to distribute, that means 3 2 2 or 3 3 1 only. That's pretty boring. Lowering to 3 points to distribute still just ends up with 3 2 1 and 2 2 2. At 4 points to distribute with 4 cap, we get three different options, and I'd prefer to keep that little semblance of versatility.
    I've been for the alternating skill ranks contributing to rolled/kept since we first discussed it, though. It's fairly elegant. I'd say rolled/kept/rolled/kept for the order. Would put the best possible roll at starting (with 6 points to distribute) at 6k6, with no other skills at all. Is a one-trick pony too strong? Even a combatmonkey, keep in mind that he'll have little defense to speak of. Dodging runs on Wisdom, and he's not put anything into shielding, so he's shit out of luck for running his defense on Courage.
    ... Courage IS default for Shield, right? Anybody disagree with that?
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/26/11(Thu)19:15 No.15063348
    I don't think that anyone's made a fuss about it.

    And I think we're leaving the cap at 4 still.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)19:17 No.15063363
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    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/26/11(Thu)19:24 No.15063440
    Are we planning on working skulltula tokens into the core game somehow? In the two zelda games they featured they were quest items with similar but different functions. In one it was an ongoing side thing spanning the whole world, in the other it was a limited test in a single dungeon, twice.
    >> Race and Defense Guy 05/26/11(Thu)19:30 No.15063506
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    I'd say they'd be a neat little quest item; hell, even give them an in-world descriptor of the shells left by Gold Skulltullas, if we're not going to have all of the 'boof! glowy skulltula token!' stuff.

    Also, a logo!
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/26/11(Thu)19:31 No.15063512
    I certainly hope not.

    I mean, if GM's want to include that sort of scavenger hunt to their game, itm ight be cool, but it shouldn't be an intergral part of the system.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/26/11(Thu)19:34 No.15063552
    Awesome logo

    I agree with this dude. Skulltulas in one game worked in a way in which you'd keep a running track of their collection, in another game they did not but were a short scavenger hunt easily completed in ten minutes. The purpose they served in Ocarina of Time was filled by Seashells in Link's Awakening. In only two games were skulltula tokens present, only in one of them did they work a way in which they'd need to be part of the system that way. They were essentially campaign specific.
    >> Race and Defense Guy 05/26/11(Thu)19:38 No.15063586
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    And yeah, this is all true. Perhaps mention them, along with Seashells, Pictographs and other stuff in the Quest/Game Design section?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)19:41 No.15063624
    Updated. Can't figure what character creation notes to put at the bottom yet. Not sure if we really have them solidly agreed upon yet.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)19:43 No.15063645
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    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)19:53 No.15063736
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    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)19:59 No.15063773
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    Vertical version for the guy who didn't like landscape style.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)20:05 No.15063826
    Planning on trying to dm this with a few friends

    One quick question: Where is the |Bombs| skill?

    i think one og my friends plans on playing a dekus scrub specialised in bombs
    >> Race and Defense Guy 05/26/11(Thu)20:07 No.15063832
    Bombs falls under |Tools|, along with Hook/Clawshot and other misc stuff.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)20:09 No.15063851
    Thanks i assumed it would be |Ranged|
    >and thrown weapons.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)20:09 No.15063852
    I think we mentioned possibly adding another skill just for bombs or for thrown weapons.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)20:17 No.15063899
    The original plan was to have a Bomb skill, which then got expanded to Alchemy for more varied kinds of blowing shit up, and now it seems to have up and disappeared completely.
    Just add it in again if you want to run it. It ought to be a separate thing from "tools." I'd suggest Power or Courage for blowing other people up, whichever you think fits best, and Wisdom for demolition work. Unless you want to use one virtue for all possible uses. That's fair, too, of course.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/26/11(Thu)20:21 No.15063932
    Wait, that still hasn't been changed? The same skill to use a bomb is the same as a clawshot or boomerang?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)20:29 No.15064002
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    That character sheet is abso-fucking-lutely beautiful.

    Seriously. Words cannot adequately express how pleased I am with these. You win all the internets.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/26/11(Thu)20:30 No.15064007
    Terribly sorry, it just occurs to me I did it again, stating a disagreement without re-stating the idea I prefer.

    Skills should be seperated by how they are performs. Bomb and bombchu are completely different. Bomb and Barrel Bomb are the same/similar enough to be the same skill. Hook, long, and claw shots would all be the same skill. Boomerangs would all be one skill. Rope and ball and chain would be the same skill with wildly different effects. Hammers would be one skill. Bows and crossbows it could be argued are different enough to be different skills. Gorons would use a giant knife or big hammer like a sword. Other races, not so much.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)20:42 No.15064103
    Too many, though. Too many and too specific.

    I don't really see how bombs and bombchus operate that differently, either. One moves straight ahead, the other stays still. The same principles still go for blowing things up. Maybe bombchus would apply Wisdom and regular bombs something else, but there's no need for different skills there.
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/26/11(Thu)20:48 No.15064151
    A bomb/bombflower/barrel bomb you light and throw yourself. A Bombchu you set down, aim, and it runs along a track, either straight ahead and over everything or with pre-planned turns.

    And is it really that many skills? I know I named a ton of items, but most are still grouped in the same skills for
    Tracked Bombs
    Bows and/or crossbows
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)20:54 No.15064212
    When did bombchus have preplanned turns? That must be one of the later games...

    And I figure |Bombs| is mostly about how to apply the bomb, not propelling means. It's knowing where at to launch it. Then it's just a matter of if you're throwing it yourself (physical courage/power?) or setting it down and aiming it (mental wisdom). It'd be pretty easy to be good at one thing and far worse at the other from base stats alone.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)20:55 No.15064223
    Thanks, i tried to make it as close to the source material as possible. Thinking of down-sizing the hearts though.

    Also, for Kokiri... Do you think their fairy companion should give them a one-time revive spell? Like an extra life for the immortal children?
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/26/11(Thu)20:55 No.15064227
    In Phantom Hourglass bombchus could have a path drawn for them that they would follow.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)20:56 No.15064238
    That makes sense from a simulationist perspective, but I think it might make the game a bit more complicated than we'd like it to be.

    Personally, I'd say put bombs under Tools and move the boomerang to Ranged. I feel like bombs fit best under Tools, but putting them there might make that category a bit too powerful, since you'd have three of the most iconic Zelda items (the boomerang, the hookshot, and bombs) all under the same skill, along with all the oddball stuff like the spinner. Of these three iconic items, the boomerang leans the most toward weapon-based usage (especially in the 2d games, what with its stunning properties and all), so I think it fits well under Ranged.
    >> Race and Defense Guy 05/26/11(Thu)20:56 No.15064239
    We have a plan for Boomerangs to have extra targets, ala TP and WW, as the skill goes up. Why not do the same with bombchu?
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/26/11(Thu)20:57 No.15064252
    Still, too many items. Tools and Bombs at least make sense to be seperated, since there's a whole family of bombs to be used (Water bombs, bombchus, cannons, remote bombs) while Tools are too broad a catagory to accurately divide up without leading to serious bloat.

    Also, I'm working on my own version of the character sheet with Publisher. If people like the other one better I might just make a cleaner version of that one.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)21:06 No.15064342
    Yeah, splitting up items like that seems like a bad idea. It'd make for a lot of skills with very narrow applicability, which disfavors those trying to make a generalist character, and will lead to several skills being immediately dismissed unless you're specifically planning to make a character built around that concept, simply because they're too narrow in scope to be worth sinking points into.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)21:12 No.15064416

    but wouldn't this encourage teamwork
    if you generalize item skills to much then the players don't really depend on eachother

    if i would want to play alone i would want to play a generalist character
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/26/11(Thu)21:14 No.15064429
    Serious bloat? Including the skills I have named, plus the skills we have, we still haven't completely filled the space for the skill list.

    It just doesn't make much sense that someone who is very good with a hammer is automatically very good with a hookshot or boomerang, despite having never seen one before.
    >> Race and Defense Guy 05/26/11(Thu)21:16 No.15064452
    Well, right now Hammers fall under the |Heavy| skill anyway, not |Tool|, according to the wiki.

    Also, thanks to whoever put my logo up on the wiki! :)

    Now I go back to trying to work out and more balance the races, while Ballad of the Wind Fish plays!
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)21:29 No.15064607
    Even as it stands now, the system isn't really capable of making a fully self-sufficient character. With the scaling skill rank costs, it's not easy to make a character who's actually *good* at more than one or two things.

    >Including the skills I have named, plus the skills we have, we still haven't completely filled the space for the skill list.

    Actually...that's not the case. If you applied your methods to the skill list up on the wiki, we'd wind up with 21 skills, with only 17 slots on the character sheet. And that's assuming you don't split up |instruments| or |magic| at all, which is a whole 'nother can of worms...

    At any rate, while I can see your point, there needs to be some balance between simulationism and gamism, and so far this project has been leaning more toward the gamist side. I mean, come on, we lump all aspects of your character's physical aptitude into a single stat! Simplicity is pretty important for this project, and detailed simulationism -- while certainly not a bad thing in its own right -- is anything but simple.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)21:33 No.15064635
    Well, the wiki was looking pretty dull, and it is a pretty nice logo...

    Also, glad to see I'm not the only one who's been put in the mood for Zelda music by this project. I've been listening to the orchestral version of the OoT soundtrack practically nonstop for the past week, and it has been glorious.
    >> Race and Defense Guy 05/26/11(Thu)21:38 No.15064689
    Hehe. Well, thanks anyway! Layering the Hylian crest, the LoZ logo, and the Triforce font for the RPG portion was easy. It's not perfect, but it's a start, right?

    Zelda music is a regular thing on my mp3 playlist. Whether it's actual game soundtrack stuff or remixes like the BotWF that I'm listening to on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPWEJMGxTBs), it's a pretty regular fixture of my mp3s, even on my iPhone.

    I'd rather be gamist than simulationist; we don't need skills for farming, appraisal, and other stuff that's more simulationist stuff. That's why I think what we have is fine as-is, with maybe a couple additions (I do think that, after above discussions, |Bomb| should be it's own skill for use of various types, with the different bomb types determining the Virt/Attr used, like Bombchu using Wisdom/Mental, or picking up and throwing the bomb for timed explosions using Cou/Phys.)
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/26/11(Thu)21:56 No.15064873
    Throwing out Technique ideas. Each of them I'm imagining having a more defined XP costs and requirements in the future, but for now I'll just say how easily a character might get them.

    [Jump Attack]
    Attack technique - Melee
    XP Cost/requirement: very low
    2-Action technique
    1st Action: Move 1/4 of your movement directly towards one enemy
    2nd Action: Make an attack against the enemy, dealing twice your weapon's damage increment with each success

    [Spin Attack]
    Attack technique - Melee
    XP Cost/requirement: very low
    2-Action technique
    1st Action: Focus weapon (no effect)
    2nd Action: Make an attack against each enemy within your weapon's reach.

    [Great Spin Attack]
    Attack technique - Melee
    XP Cost/requirement: High
    4-Action technique
    1st and 2nd Action: Focus Weapon (no effect)
    3rd and 4th Action: Move a number of spaces up to your movement and make an attack against each enemy within your weapon's reach

    [Sword Beam]
    Attack technique - Melee
    XP Cost/requirement: High
    1-Action technique
    Action: Make a weapon attack against one enemy within 10 spaces of you.
    Requirement: Must be wielding a sword
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)21:59 No.15064903
    Looks pretty good. You could probably also put which skill they fall under, if not what skill rank would be required. Presumably these would all be |melee| based, right?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)22:01 No.15064917
    >You could probably also put which skill they fall under

    Herp derp, nevermind. When I first read them I thought the "attack technique" bit was about what range it could be used at, but looking at the sword beam entry that obviously isn't the case. Carry on!
    >> Race and Defense Guy 05/26/11(Thu)22:04 No.15064956
    Are we making minis/maps/squares the standard here? If so, that's cool; I'll just have to make a mental note to abstract it out myself when everything is done (I just don't like minis/squares/maps, I hated it in the one SWSE game I played).

    Also, more mood music:
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)22:12 No.15065022
    I think given the nature of the source material it's almost a necessity...
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)22:16 No.15065053
    I think the simplest way to do starting hearts would be 2 plus physical. that way you get a minimum of 3 and a maximum of 6 and the math is extremely simple
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)22:20 No.15065085
    i'm guessing your asking because of the "move a number of spaces" wording. 1 unit of movement is 1 meter in game or 1 inch if you're using minis/squares, so you can easily do either one according to your taste
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)22:23 No.15065119
    Makes sense to me.

    A power focused player is extremely good in close combat and can take a beating possibly with some destructive spells.

    A courage focused player is extremely good in social situation, has utility based songs and has some useful stealth and magic combat abilities.

    A wisdom focused player is extremely good at range, can dodge blows like crazy, and is useful for lots of magic items.

    Sound about right?
    Was this intentionally, Warrior, Expert, and Spellcaster?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)22:40 No.15065247
    see the Stat section in the wiki linked in OP
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)22:41 No.15065261
    can someone remind me again why social was ever changed to spiritual?
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)22:45 No.15065287
    Can someone remind me again why we even HAVE a social stat? In a ZELDA game? I mean I realize people want to role play but do you even really need a stat system for this? It seems to me that a Powerful warrior can be just as charismatic as a Courageous speaker or a Wise sage.

    Although if I had to pick one courageous seems to fit charismatic best. Er... spirited I mean.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)22:53 No.15065379
    Stealth is under Wisdom, though. And Courage is combative.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)22:56 No.15065396
    To govern social interactions? I thought it pretty obvious.
    And yes, actually, that's what the system accomplishes. Well, I guess a Courageous SPEAKER would be better than the other two at it, by virtue of having focused on it. Which is fair.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)23:00 No.15065442
    Essentially, it was generally agreed that "spiritual" fit better than "social" for a LoZ setting, and that the name change opens up mechanical space for things that otherwise wouldn't fit very well.
    See this post >>15054397 for some of the arguments made for the name change in earlier threads.

    >It seems to me that a Powerful warrior can be just as charismatic as a Courageous speaker or a Wise sage.

    Of course they can, their charisma just takes on slightly different forms in each case by dint of their respective virtues.
    The Powerful one is imposing -- perhaps not overtly threatening or intimidating, but at least having an aura that commands respect.
    The Wise one is discerning -- excelling at logical, well-reasoned arguments, able to pick up on the finer points of the attitudes of others, and possessed of poise and social graces.
    The Courageous one is inspiring -- commanding loyalty, and generally coming across as a likeable and trustworthy individual.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)23:01 No.15065449
    social was also meant to cover instruments/music if I remember correctly, which has always been and integral part of the Zelda universe
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)23:06 No.15065510
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    God yes. I submit a potential cover. Keep up the good work!
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)23:07 No.15065516
    Of course, I should clarify that any individual can attempt any sort of social interaction. The Powerful warrior can attempt well-reasoned diplomacy, but he probably won't be as effective at it as he would in simply imposing his views on others by sheer force of presence. Similarly, a Wise individual could try to intimidate someone into submission, but would probably have more success trying to talk him down rationally instead.

    It's just a matter of what you're trying to do. If you're intimidating, browbeating, or otherwise being forceful and imposing, you use Power. If you're being discerning and rational, use Wisdom. If you're trying to inspire, either to explicit loyalty or simply to a friendly disposition, use Courage.
    >> Anonymous 05/26/11(Thu)23:44 No.15065852
    So... Anybody want to update the wiki with all the new stuff in this thread?

    I'd do it myself if I had any know-how.
    >> Library Lass 05/27/11(Fri)00:07 No.15066092
    To put it in rhetorical terms, Power is Ethos, Wisdom is Logos, and Courage is Pathos.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)00:13 No.15066167
    There are dozens of trinity relationships here:
    Power, Wisdom, Courage
    Body, Mind, Soul
    Ethos, Logos, Pathos
    What Is, What Was, What Could Be
    The Earth, The Sea, The Sky
    Man, God, Animal
    Father, Mother, Child
    Life, Death, Rebirth

    And many more I have no doubt.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)00:42 No.15066415
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    how does developing different hypothetical characters using what we have so far sound to everyone?

    like, us actually coming up with a character concept, and properly statting them using our current system

    this would both be fun, and help us determine anything that still needs to be worked out
    >> Boomer !!bcdVCSUmpgT 05/27/11(Fri)00:44 No.15066439
    Goron! Roller and Hammerguy!
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)00:48 No.15066472
    Light Armored, Guitar playing, Stealth Assassin, Spear/Harpoon Zora
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)01:04 No.15066591
    Just threw this together, using the current system on the wiki. You people should go update it-

    >Name: Banril
    >Race: Hylian
    >Concept: Sagely oldish dude. Classic wizardly image, gray or white hair + beard a necessity. Scottish-accent and pipes thrown in for good measure.

    >Hearts: 5
    >Magic: 6

    >4 mass
    >6 movement

    >Courage ooo
    >Power ooo
    >Wisdom oo

    >Mental oooo
    >Physical o
    >Spiritual oo

    >Magic ooo
    >Alchemy o
    >Instrument (Pipes) o

    The health seems a bit high for a starting wizard-ish character, but I suppose it's not something to complain about. Just having the health more physical oriented may make more sense.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)01:08 No.15066618
         File1306472889.jpg-(213 KB, 1600x1135, hbt___zora_designs___tmml_by_n(...).jpg)
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    dual hookshot or clawshot wielding zora

    you always find a hookshot or something like it in the water dungeons, so I've always wanted to see a zora fight with them

    the introduction of dual wielding the things in Twilight Princess only made this better

    also, it's been shown that zoras can use their fins as natural weapons, so he could use that if hookshots or clawshots don't do damage, but are regulated to stunning effects, much like the game

    with the hook/clawshots he'd be an incredibly mobile combatant, so maybe a focus on physical/wisdom?
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)01:11 No.15066656
    >The health seems a bit high for a starting wizard-ish character
    another reason why I think we should just use 2 + physical for starting hearts.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)01:26 No.15066780
         File1306473995.png-(415 KB, 783x584, Dangoro1.png)
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    better idea? dual clawshot and iron boot wielding goron

    pull enemies to you
    punch them to death

    either one sounds cool though

    >> Cz 05/27/11(Fri)01:27 No.15066784

    Name: Holden
    Race: Hylian
    Concept: A young adult heavy hammer user that dabbles in some defensive spells. Most likely was a guard or knight just introduced into an army.

    Mass: 4
    Movement: 6

    Hearts: 6
    Magic: 5

    -Courage 2
    -Power 3
    -Wisdom 3

    -Mental 2
    -Physical 3
    -Spirtual 2

    Armour: 1
    Heavy: 3
    Magic: 1

    I'll most likely give a pass at drawing him later.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/27/11(Fri)01:30 No.15066803
    Sounds fair to me.

    I'd like to see a fat zora character, like Teto or the king from OoT. Possibly in a musical support roll.
    Also, a sneaky Deku sniper might be neat.
    Goron wrestler
    Goron elder (like those guys in the Goron Mines.)
    Gerudo alchemist/philosopher

    The only race I can't put a spin on is the Kokiri. Their innocence is pretty intergral to their character.

    >Dogs, formom
    Captcha wants transformation magic.
    >> Cz 05/27/11(Fri)01:38 No.15066863
    Other characters I've considered was-

    A Pyromaniac Deku Scrub (Theres a way this can work I just know it.)
    A Kokiri Pickpocket
    A Gerudo Ranger
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)01:41 No.15066890
    That first sounds incredibly awesome and workable. Either a fascination with lighting things aflim akin to reverence, or a twisted skewing of pleasure at other things and them-self being burned. It would no doubt be interesting.
    >> Cz 05/27/11(Fri)01:52 No.15066993

    Name: Skew
    Race: Deku Scrub
    Concept: A Deku who likes to watch objects and evil creatures burn after attacked with fire. Burns on a part of his body which now is thorny hardened and charred.

    Mass: 2
    Movement: 8

    Hearts: 5
    Magic: 5

    -Courage 3
    -Power 1
    -Wisdom 2

    -Mental 3
    -Physical 1
    -Spirtual 3

    Ranged: 1
    Alchemy: 3
    Craft: 1

    Yet another character I need to draw later. Heh.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)01:53 No.15067004
    >Their innocence is pretty intergral to their character

    that doesn't mean they can't be absolute cocks

    case and point: Mido

    a kokiri sniper would work

    use their fairy to aid in targeting, use a smaller bow of appropriate size, strike right in an enemy's weakpoint while they're distracted by the rest of the party
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)01:55 No.15067023
         File1306475747.jpg-(11 KB, 250x265, George-Takei-oh-my.jpg)
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    >Burns on a part of his body which now is thorny hardened and charred
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:05 No.15067107
    hardass kokiri sniper who lost his eye to some keese, now wears a keese-skin eye patch and has a personal vendetta against the fuckers


    but uhh... how are most kokiri supposed to leave the forest?

    are they all just going to be on super special missions from the deku tree? maybe it turns out that they totally can leave the forest but they've never tried?

    maybe skullkid would be a better pc race, as they can be pretty amicable
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:08 No.15067127
         File1306476502.png-(174 KB, 277x472, Skull_Kid_Artwork_(Ocarina_of_(...).png)
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    fuck yeah, skullkid!
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:09 No.15067139
    Hmm. Almost want to bump up the mass more, and I wasn't too sure how to get a instrument/charisma character done. Here's a crack I took at the Zora, anyways-

    Name: Ois-Und
    Race: Zora
    Concept: Rather large and almost obese looking Zora. He is a man of shrewd character and dominating personality, ideally suited for working as an emissary to the Hylian folk. Off the job he is rather paternal and grandfatherly, and has secret flights of fancy regarding adventuring.

    Hearts: 3
    Magic: 6

    5 mass
    5 movement

    Courage o
    Power ooo
    Wisdom ooo

    Mental ooo
    Physical o
    Spiritual ooo

    Instrument (Flute) oo
    Tool oo
    Ranged o
    Magic o
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:11 No.15067158
         File1306476712.gif-(34 KB, 125x120, 1304389259234.gif)
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    you're still using hearts = 1 + courage + physical
    stop it. it's bad.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:13 No.15067176
         File1306476803.jpg-(115 KB, 1280x645, hbt___zora_designs___rrrr_by_n(...).jpg)
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    guy on far left?

    also, is there a way to increase mass at character generation?

    maybe there should be
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:14 No.15067185
    you can adjust your mass by 1 whichever way you choose at character creation
    >> Cz 05/27/11(Fri)02:15 No.15067192

    My bad dude, was just following the wiki rules. Whats the other way to use it then?
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:15 No.15067197
    Good god, that's like some crazy spawn of Totoro and Zora. Would work.

    On mass- you can increase your mass by 1 at character creation, but this also decreases the speed by 1.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:17 No.15067208
    the alternatives that have been suggested in this thread are:
    1 + half courage (rounded up) + half physical (rounded up)
    2 + physical
    A final decision has yet to be made on this. I'm personally in favor of the latter.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:17 No.15067210
    Instead of being a doucenigger about it, recommend something that works.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:19 No.15067226
    i already did earlier in the thread
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:22 No.15067254
    Wasn't douchey so much as incredibly blunt.

    But yeah. I think 2+Physical sounds pretty good for starting health. Would decrease starting melee people's hearts by 1ish, and everyone else is only 3 or 4 hearts, unless they bump up their physical capabilities. Much better then the wizard-sage having 5 hearts right off the bat.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:22 No.15067258
    Hearts and Magic both start at 3.
    Then the player can but them up as a skill.
    >> Cz 05/27/11(Fri)02:26 No.15067284

    I like the 2 + Physical as well. Skew's hearts went down to three but really that makes alot more sense, hes a Scrub a small non melee character so have like close to 5 or 6 hearts may seem alittle crazy. And my Hylian's Hearts only went down to 5 instead of 6 which sounds more balanced as well.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:28 No.15067311
    shit, I didn't even look at how magic was being derived. I definitely don't think it should be derived from a virtue though.
    I think 2 + physical works fine for hearts, but starting magic at 3 and letting it be bought up might be a good option. that or it's 3 + your magic skill
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:31 No.15067330
    That may be better, it it was 3+magic, or 2+magic skill or something. Every character made so far in this thread seems to have 5+ magic. There isn't really an obvious attribute/virtue/thing for it to be based on, however.
    >> Cz 05/27/11(Fri)02:34 No.15067352
    I don't think it should be starting at 3. Not all creatures are magical, or have the build to use magic. But it is Hyrule and its magic it's pretty relevant to the game, I think it should be 1 + Magic Skill, or 1 + Mental + Magic. Or even 1 + Half Mental + Magic.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:34 No.15067355
         File1306478045.jpg-(302 KB, 769x738, c96ae777a5c9bb5e.jpg)
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    increased mass
    iron boots
    target crotch armor

    come at me bro
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:35 No.15067370
    it could be 2 + mental, since we've established that magic is covered by the mental attribute. that also makes similar to how starting hearts are determined and thus simple to remember. or it could be 3 + magic skill. either way that's only for determining starting magic. any further points in magic must be bought separately during character advancement.
    how about just mental plus magic?
    >> Cz 05/27/11(Fri)02:38 No.15067392

    I like it.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:38 No.15067394
    Leaning toward 1+magic. Assuming that a simple spell would be one chunk of it, and a large AoE spell 2, then that fits in nicely with the 1-4ish range. Someone completely unexperienced in magic can't pull of anything but the most simple of spells, once.

    1+1/2 mental+magic would bump that up by .5-2, giving a range of 1.5 - 6 starting magic.

    1+mental+magic a range of 2-8. Seems a bit high that way.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:40 No.15067411
    That's actually pretty simple and seems to work. Plus the whole "previous people deciding it should pertain to mental attribute".

    Disregard this.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:42 No.15067416
    I made a few different suggestions in that post. are you responding to the very last one? mental + magic?
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:43 No.15067434
    Mental+Magic, yes.

    Why does that seem so natural?
    >> Cz 05/27/11(Fri)02:44 No.15067445
    Lets retry Skew for shits and giggles with the alternative Heart and Magic stats


    Name: Skew
    Race: Deku Scrub
    Concept: A Deku who likes to watch objects and evil creatures burn after attacked with fire. Burns cover a part of his body which now is thorny hardened and charred.

    Mass: 2
    Movement: 8

    Hearts: 3 = 2 + Physical
    Magic: 3 = Mental + Magic

    -Courage 3
    -Power 1
    -Wisdom 2

    -Mental 3
    -Physical 1
    -Spirtual 3

    Ranged: 1
    Alchemy: 3
    Craft: 1
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:46 No.15067454
    Missing a virtue point, I believe. Don't you start with 1 in each and get +4 to spend?
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:47 No.15067457
         File1306478821.png-(56 KB, 387x480, the_legend_of_goron_by_hawklf-(...).png)
    56 KB
    because it's what all gorons want

    and what you want

    you are the gorons
    >> Cz 05/27/11(Fri)02:48 No.15067471

    ...Herp. My bad.

    Name: Skew
    Race: Deku Scrub
    Concept: A Deku who likes to watch objects and evil creatures burn after attacked with fire. Burns cover a part of his body which now is thorny hardened and charred.

    Mass: 2
    Movement: 8

    Hearts: 3 = 2 + Physical
    Magic: 3 = Mental + Magic

    -Courage 4
    -Power 1
    -Wisdom 2

    -Mental 3
    -Physical 1
    -Spirtual 3

    Ranged: 1
    Alchemy: 3
    Craft: 1
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:50 No.15067488
         File1306479023.png-(1.47 MB, 999x1397, Zubora_and_Gabora.png)
    1.47 MB
    I want to be THIS goron

    badass giant warrior smithy

    also, his boyfriend there could count as a kokiri, I guess
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:52 No.15067502
    pretty sure his boyfriend is a hylian
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:54 No.15067519
    he's young link size if not smaller

    that's not a hylian
    >> Cz 05/27/11(Fri)02:54 No.15067523
         File1306479292.png-(44 KB, 120x206, Tingle.png)
    44 KB

    Tell tale signs of a Kokiri. Check for fairies.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:54 No.15067524
    I think the new formula make much more sense. And it seems to be slightly more varied- everyone doesn't have 5 or 6 health this way. Here's a random goron with min-maxed physique, for the health and whatnot.

    Name: Segoron
    Race: Goron
    Concept: Goron juggernaught who is a bit too touchy-feely. Is a fitness freak, and takes delight in his stature, especially in presenting it to others.

    Hearts: 6
    Magic: 1

    7 mass
    3 movement

    Courage oo
    Power oooo
    Wisdom o

    Mental o
    Physical oooo
    Spiritual oo

    Brawl ooo
    Armor oo

    >Come at me, bro
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:56 No.15067534
    hylians come in a wide range of sizes. and he has facial hair. kokiri are all children.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)02:57 No.15067551
    awesome. I went ahead and updated the wiki. the wording could probably be better, but it gets the point across.
    there's character sheets further up the thread if you wanna try those out.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)03:05 No.15067608
    Alright. It's faster to use a random .txt editing program currently instead of editing those image sheets. If I was better at some programs I'd try to make those editable .pdf's.
    >> Cz 05/27/11(Fri)03:07 No.15067621
    Lemme try my Hylian's restat to see if it fits right before I head out for the night.

    Name: Holden
    Race: Hylian
    Concept: A young adult heavy hammer user that dabbles in some defensive spells. Most likely was a guard or knight just introduced into an army.

    Mass: 4
    Movement: 6

    Hearts: 5
    Magic: 3

    -Courage 2
    -Power 3
    -Wisdom 3

    -Mental 2
    -Physical 3
    -Spirtual 2

    Armour: 1
    Heavy: 3
    Magic: 1

    Oh yeah, far more balanced out for the character's configuration.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)03:12 No.15067665
    Cool. And that health and magic /is/ much more fitting, rather then 6 and 5. I'm liking the larger ranges.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)03:30 No.15067815
    I guess I'll take a shot at it

    Name: Luka
    Race: Gerudo
    Concept: Gerudo scout focused on stealth, mobility, and using ranged combat to keep her enemies at a distance so she can flee if she's spotted.

    Mass: 3
    Movement: 7

    Hearts: 4
    Magic: 4

    -Courage 1
    -Power 2
    -Wisdom 4

    -Mental 4
    -Physical 2
    -Spirtual 1

    Stealth: 3
    Ranged: 2
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)03:44 No.15067928
    Looks good. And when I think of Gerudo, I think of melee, so that's an interesting twist on agile-desert-woman-shenanigans.

    Hopefully next thread people will work through weapon/magic stats, so we can see more precisely how these characters would work.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)03:45 No.15067930
         File1306482308.png-(237 KB, 576x576, Goron_Portrait__Darchu_by_Red_(...).png)
    237 KB
    Name: Boomer
    Race: Goron
    Concept: Bomb craftsman extraordinaire, he quests to find new and unique materials for creating bigger and better booms. Primarily wields bombs, of course.

    Mass: 5
    Movement: 4

    Hearts: 4
    Magic: 4

    -Courage 1
    -Power 2
    -Wisdom 4

    -Mental 4
    -Physical 2
    -Spirtual 1

    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)03:47 No.15067940
    I wanted to pick a couple of characters from this thread and pit them against each other for an example of play, but then I realized I didn't have weapon stats
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)04:04 No.15068044
    Mass/movement should add up to 10, and I think you went over on skill points. The wiki page has the costs for the ranks of skill.

    Would have been interesting and helpful, yep, but the system isn't quite there yet.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)04:07 No.15068063
    this guy >>15068044 is right. your movement should 5, and max starting rank for skills is 3. also to get your alchemy to 4 would cost 5 points and ranged to 2 would cost 2 for a total of 7, so you're one point over
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)04:10 No.15068085
         File1306483846.jpg-(1021 KB, 1417x1232, Goron_Mob_by_JohnnyCago.jpg)
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    yup, see that now

    guess I read the chart wrong the first time

    Mass: 5
    Movement: 5

    Hearts: 4
    Magic: 4

    -Courage 1
    -Power 2
    -Wisdom 4

    -Mental 4
    -Physical 2
    -Spirtual 1


    this look better?
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)04:12 No.15068094
         File1306483964.jpg-(1.89 MB, 1000x1242, 1304979304030.jpg)
    1.89 MB
    I don't think the thread is being bumped any more

    new thread time?
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)04:19 No.15068133
    Looks perfect.

    I'm off to bed, but feel free to.
    >> Library Lass 05/27/11(Fri)04:32 No.15068207
    Nor spells. We need to get on that too.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)04:38 No.15068247
    >People can run whatever games they like. If someone wants a darker, Link to the Past sort of game, or a very high-fantasy, Ocarina or Wind Waker type game, they can do that as well. GM's can choose specific tools or items to exclude if it doesn't fit their game, or make new ones. Players can pick races and skills that fit their chosen setting.
    Great. Then I'm adding Rito to the wiki. If you don't want to use them in your setting you don't have to.
    >> Library Lass 05/27/11(Fri)04:53 No.15068329
    I'm all for it. If you feel like, do Koroks too.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)05:01 No.15068383
    all I really did was add them to the core list. I need to figure out how to handle flying before I put them in the detailed race section.
    Do Zora seem unbalanced to you? They get to breathe underwater, move underwater without making any checks, deal damage on a successful shield roll, and get a natural ranged weapon, but their only negative is they take +1 ice damage. I think the whole "blessing" section should be removed for them. Same for Gorons. I think the roll ability is quite sufficient.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)05:07 No.15068417
         File1306487244.jpg-(364 KB, 1077x1644, 1306034538441.jpg)
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    I think the "blessings" should be reserved for spells available only to members of that species, personally

    only magically inclined members of different species should be able to magically electrify themselves or sprout spikes, and these "spells" would be useless to other species, so maybe each race should have unique areas of magic that compliment their physiology only available to them
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)05:09 No.15068424
    i'm down with this
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)05:14 No.15068446
    except for Deku. I think their "blessing" should just be a racial ability that works with anything that fits in their mouths and it shouldn't require magic use. I also don't get why they get a social bonus.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)05:16 No.15068459
    and all the humanoids should have access to stuff none of the three elemental can

    maybe it would pertain to their elemental weaknesses

    zora can't cast ice spells, deku can't cast fire spells, and gorons can't use water magic

    personally, I think the the three elemental races need more unique attributes

    gorons can roll up and rest anywhere, for example, not requiring a bed or shelter

    deku shrubs can bounce on water for a short time and are universally capable of entering the ground and even living within special breeds of flower

    flight may also be universal for them

    given this, water breathing and excellent swimming abilities don't seem too extraordinary
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)05:21 No.15068481
    all they shoot is nuts, though

    though that does add some interesting variables for pc's

    custom ordered "deku bombs" that can be fired from the mouth

    shotgun styled spreads of deku seeds for close combat

    something should determine the range and accuracy of this though

    but deku bubble firing should be kept as a special deku spell that they can learn

    there's no harm in keeping it
    >> Library Lass 05/27/11(Fri)05:22 No.15068484
    >and all the humanoids should have access to stuff none of the three elemental can
    >maybe it would pertain to their elemental weaknesses
    >zora can't cast ice spells, deku can't cast fire spells, and gorons can't use water magic
    I am strongly against this. One of my friends already has plans to make a Zora with an ice magic focus and I don't really see a good reason for it.
    Breathing underwater is pretty situational. Just saying.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)05:27 No.15068511
         File1306488471.png-(276 KB, 600x413, Phantomganonww.png)
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    well zoras seem to be incredibly susceptible to being frozen, but I agree that it was a bit of a stretch

    so magic should be restricted based solely on physiological incompatibility?

    nobody but gorons can grow spikes when rolling for example, and only zoras can electrify their fins

    or should there be no restrictions at all? maybe just racial preferences or specialties
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)05:27 No.15068514
    >but deku bubble firing should be kept as a special deku spell that they can learn
    erm... how did that go again? it wasn't in the wiki. I'll add it as a "blessing" for the time being if you know the mechanics
    >Breathing underwater is pretty situational. Just saying.
    their fins count as blades, how's that?
    >> Library Lass 05/27/11(Fri)06:09 No.15068699
    We'll see. I do come from the 4e school of design, so races having too substantial of penalties doesn't really sit right with me.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)06:16 No.15068725
    water breathing and natural movement under water plus natural weapons
    +1 damage from ice hardly seems too substantial in comparison. it's not really clear what plus one damage means, though. i'm guessing it means plus one damage increment, so if it's a 1/2 heart ice damage then they take 1 full heart
    >> Library Lass 05/27/11(Fri)06:26 No.15068773
    Yeah, that seems totally fair, all things considered.
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)06:30 No.15068798
         File1306492238.jpg-(394 KB, 1400x1676, Zora_Link___Musical_Tuna_by_Ri(...).jpg)
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    they also have the ability to freely speak and communicate underwater come to think of it

    also, was the zoras just sort of materializing from underwater an actual ability of theirs or just a graphical inadequacy?
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)06:55 No.15069011
    made some adjustments to Goron (added shield bonus in ball form) and Zora (added fins as natural blade weapons) and moved their "blessings" to the Technique section with respective racial requirements.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 05/27/11(Fri)08:46 No.15069665
    New thread?
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)08:47 No.15069676
    working on it now
    >> Anonymous 05/27/11(Fri)08:50 No.15069697
    here you go >>15069694

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