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  • File : 1307806914.jpg-(931 KB, 2000x2750, darknuts.jpg)
    931 KB The Legend of Zelda RPG Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)11:41 No.15229712  
    Previous thread: http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/15170866/
    1d4chan page: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Legend_of_Zelda_RPG

    The breakdown:
    3 Virtues: Power, Wisdom, Courage
    3 Attributes: Physical, Mental, Spiritual
    Some skills, mostly item-based in keeping with Zelda themes.
    A number of techniques/abilities, which are purchased a-la-carte with XP. Most of them will be tied to a specific skill, requiring a certain number of ranks in that skill to learn.

    The system uses a d6 roll & keep system, using linear comparison for opposed checks. This means that you roll X six-sided dice (with X = your ranks in the relevant Attribute + your ranks in the relevant skill) and only use the Y highest rolls (with Y = your ranks in the relevant Virtue). Linear comparison means that in the case of a contested roll (such as in combat) you compare your highest roll to your opponent's highest, your second highest to their second highest, and so forth. If one party in the contest has more kept dice than the opponent, the extra dice are treated as unopposed.

    Unopposed rolls are compared to a fixed success threshold, with a certain number of successes required to accomplish the intended task. For example, pushing a heavy block might require 2 successes, with success defined as a die showing 4 or greater; in this case, you'd roll Physical and keep Power.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)11:44 No.15229728
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    Character advancement is free-form, with XP investment improving skills and attributes. Virtues are extremely difficult to improve, and shouldn't change much over the course of a typical game. Techniques range from new combat moves (such as the jump attack and sword beam) to unique racial talents (zora creating an electrical field) and passive abilities (being able to walk across shifting sand unhindered.) Most techniques have a skill or attribute prerequisite before they can be purchased. Certain races may recieve XP discounts or lower prerequisites for certain techniques.

    Core races consist of Deku Scrub, Gerudo, Goron, Hylian, Kokiri, and Zora, with more under discussion. Each race gets a couple nifty abilities (eg, Gorons can roll into a ball and roll around, Zora can breathe underwater, and so forth), except for Hylians, who instead get a +1 to the Virtue of their choice (though this can't be applied to put any Virtue over the usual starting limit of 4). No other races get any bonuses to Virtues. Each race also has a Mass score, which affects movement speed, getting knocked/pushed around, use of the hookshot/clawshot, and so forth.

    Damage is measured in hearts, and can be dealt in fractions of up to 1/4 heart. Your character has hearts equal to 2 + Physical, making the minimum number of hearts 3. Hearts can be increased by increasing your Physical value, and by obtaining Pieces of Heart and Heart Containers, which will be distributed as rewards for beating bosses and tough puzzles and the like.

    Magic spells and items use Magic Power (with a basic attack spell using 2MP.) The Magic Meter is divided into blocks, each with 6MP. Starting MP is equal to 6 x your Mental value, or one block per Mental. Additional blocks can be aquired by improving your mental score and as rewards (like Heart Containers)
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)11:54 No.15229786
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    >Current issues

    Monster stats, techniques and spells, movement rules, XP costs and skill results all need work. There are many examples of these scattered across previous threads that need consolidation and then editing.

    Drawfags and writefags are much appreciated, as well as anyone who can assemble a PDF. We don't want this game to end up looking like the d20 Zelda version.

    Aside from some brief combat experiments, the system hasn't had much testing. Running a quick game can help fill in the holes or bring up problems that might have been overlooked.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)12:08 No.15229877
    Fluff should be easy. We've got all those games to make it. And Skyward Sword should add a detailed history to work off of.
    >> Drawfag Dump Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)12:14 No.15229924
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    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)12:15 No.15229936
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    Last one and current one are by JSCervini
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)12:16 No.15229940
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    JSCervini #3
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)12:17 No.15229945
    Although I like what has been created so far, the d6 roll & keep system still makes me confused. As in, extremely confused. And I'm not a retard as far as I know, I just don't understand the system =|
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)12:17 No.15229946
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    JSCervini 4
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)12:18 No.15229954
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    JSCervini #5
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)12:18 No.15229956
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    JSCervini #6
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)12:19 No.15229966
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    One by SirScribe, who got the ball rolling.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)12:20 No.15229972
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    Cz did a lot of character sketches.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)12:20 No.15229975
    This art is really awesome
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)12:21 No.15229980
         File1307809283.png-(230 KB, 699x832, Cz2.png)
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    Cz, #2
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)12:21 No.15229984
         File1307809315.png-(190 KB, 601x740, Cz3.png)
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    Cz, #3
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)12:22 No.15229987
         File1307809355.png-(186 KB, 594x743, Cz4.png)
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    Cz, #4
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)12:23 No.15229993
         File1307809393.png-(612 KB, 1400x1000, Cz5.png)
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    Cz #5

    >good eaties
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)12:24 No.15230005
    could someone post the character sheet?
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)12:24 No.15230006
         File1307809460.png-(258 KB, 840x739, Cz6.png)
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    Cz, #6.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)12:25 No.15230012
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    #7, last one by Cz that I could get.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)12:26 No.15230022
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    A few by me.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)12:27 No.15230030
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    TCN #2, sketch page.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)12:28 No.15230041
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    TCN #3, goes along with >>15230012
    on a proposed Deku technique to spit heavy weapons.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)12:29 No.15230050
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    Last one by me.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)12:30 No.15230062
         File1307809807.png-(21 KB, 738x550, Anon1.png)
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    And a couple by very talented anons.
    >> Timothy Turner 06/11/11(Sat)12:30 No.15230065
    From what I can see, in the GB/GBC/GBA games the rooms are 13x9... could that help with the speed decisions? Also, I have read what was said in the last thread (http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/15170866) it's either 5ft we want or 1 meter because
    a) cm will be a MASSIVE pain to use
    b) 5ft solves the small squares problem but means "everything" would have to be in imperial
    c) 1m means very small squares and means that "everything" would be metric, which is easier to work with.

    I would like to clarify, I am British and therefore work in/have experience working in both metric and imperial and have always done. I have to say that in /tg/'s it's FAR easier to just use imperial...

    Just me though...
    >> JSCervini !!L+hOixyXrvo 06/11/11(Sat)12:31 No.15230069
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    Thanks for posting mine.

    And damn, I like your style!
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)12:31 No.15230073
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    Another Anonymous picture, last of the image dump.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)12:33 No.15230083
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    My sheet, colors based on another talented poster's contribution
    >> Timothy Turner 06/11/11(Sat)12:38 No.15230125

    Say you (the PC) had 5k3 and you were attacking. You would roll 5 dice and keep three. For argument's sake lets say you score 6, 5, 4, 3, 2.

    Your opponent, though, has 3k2 defense. He rolls 3 dice and keeps 2. For argument's sake lets say he rolls 5, 4, 4.

    You both keep your highest rolls.

    You have 6, 5, 4.
    Your Opponent has 5, 4.

    Your highest (6) beats your opponents highest (5).
    Your second highest (5) beats your oponent's second highest (4).

    The third of your kept dice is unopposed. This is ignored.

    You have scored 2 hits as the unopposed dice is ignored.

    When 2 dice are equal, the system dictates who wins, but I am not sure who gets it in this system.

    That help?
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)12:44 No.15230161
    Was it ever decided what unopposed dice would do for attack and active defense? Last I read, unopposed dice on Active Defense would be auto-successes. Are unopposed attack dice also auto-success?
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)12:44 No.15230163
    Defenders win ties.

    I believe that unopposed attack dice counted as successes, so the attacker would have 3 successes instead of two.

    And for simplicity's sake, let's set it so that unoposed defense dice do anything, unless that turns out to be a bad decision through playtesting.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)12:46 No.15230183
    basic system so far is looking good, but how does work?
    >> JSCervini !!L+hOixyXrvo 06/11/11(Sat)12:47 No.15230192
    I would think that unopposed dice would do nicely in a tie situation, especially since the defender wins the ties, a'la Risk. In the scenario here >>15230125, the defender would win if he tied both opposed dice, even if the third was taken into account. It would add an edge of sorts.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)12:48 No.15230209
    sorry, i am a retard.

    How does magic work?
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)12:56 No.15230265
    You're close, but not quite. Unopposed dice in an opposed check aren't ignored, they're automatic successes; I guess that wasn't clearly stated on the wiki (I'll fix it right after this post).

    You roll Xd6, where X is equal to your score in the relevant Attribute + 1/2 your ranks in the relevant skill, rounded up (since skills currently give +1 rolled die for every odd-numbered rank). You then ignore all but the Y highest dice out of those you rolled, where Y is equal to your score in the relevant Virtue + 1/2 your skill ranks, rounded down (since skills give +1 kept die for every odd-numbered rank). The shorthand representation for this is XkY.

    For example, if you had 4 Physical, 3 Courage, and 3 ranks in |melee|, your attack roll with a sword would be 6k4 -- you roll 6d6 (4 Physical + 2 from your |melee| skill ranks) and keep the 4 highest dice out of that roll (3 Courage + 1 from your skill ranks). So if your roll was [3,6,4,2,4,3], your kept dice would be [6,4,4,3], and you'd ignore the other 3 and the 2.

    Then for opposed checks, we use a linear comparison system, which means you compare your dice to your opponent's in order from highest to lowest. For example, suppose your opponent's defense roll was 5k3, and he got [2,4,3,5,5] on his 5d6 roll, keeping [5,5,4]. The comparison would be as follows (your dice on the left).

    6 > 5 -- Success for you (deal damage equal to your weapon's damage increment)
    4 < 5 -- Success for the opponent (no damage for this die)
    4 = 4 -- Ties go to the defender; opponent wins this one too (no damage for this die)
    3 (unopposed) -- If you have more kept dice than your opponent, the extra dice are auto-successes. Since you have one unopposed die, you deal one automatic increment of damage

    Thus, you scored a total of 2 successes for that attack, so you deal two increments of damage. A typical sword has a damage increment of 1/2 heart, you'd deal 2*(1/2), or 1 full heart of damage.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)12:57 No.15230269
    Are you suggesting that unopposed dice break ties? I'm not sure I follow.

    >Current Skill List:
    |Melee| (Physical Power/Wisdom/Courage) - Swords, Spears, Fisticuffs, Polearms.
    |Heavy| (Physical Power) - Ball and Chain, Biggoron Sword, Skull Hammer, etc.
    |Ranged| (Physical Power/Wisdom/Courage) - Bows, Boomerang, Bombs, thrown weapons.
    |Shield| (Physical Courage) - Used both defending and shield attacks.
    |Tool| (Physical Power/Wisdom/Courage) - Hookshot, Grappling Hook, Spinner, etc.
    |Instrument| (Spirtual Courage) - Ocarina, Flute, Pipes, Drums.
    |Magic| (Mental Power/Wisdom/Courage) - Spells, Fire rod, Cane of Somaria. (spells are aquired like items)
    |Alchemy| (Mental Wisdom) - Potion Brewing, Bomb Crafting
    |Acrobatics| (Physical Wisdom/Courage) - Wisdom for defense, Courage for jumping and balancing.
    |Stealth| (Physical Wisdom) - Hiding, sneaking, all that jazz.
    |Sway| (Spiritual Power/Wisdom/Courage) - Influencing others, diplomacy and intimidation.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)13:01 No.15230301
    We seem to have come full circle regarding OP images. That's the same picture I began the first thread with.

    I can't contribute terriby well as far as Crunch goes, but I intend to run a beta campaign down at the LGS in a week. In the meantime, I believe we need a more complete list of items and techniques.

    Though, an issue that comes to mind, that I mentioned 3-4 threads ago was was decided to wait until later; How are we handling the mechanics of monter's weak points, a la Gohma?
    >> Sir Scribe 06/11/11(Sat)13:02 No.15230308
    herp derp forgot my own name.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)13:03 No.15230318
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    http://goo [DOT] gl/doodle/9qYa5
    >> Sir Scribe 06/11/11(Sat)13:03 No.15230324
    So did we scrap the |Craft| idea that someone mentioned, the skill for blacksmithing/glassblowing/general macguyvering?
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)13:04 No.15230343
    Magic hasn't quite been fleshed out yet, but I've had a few ideas I'd been kicking around.

    Offensive spells against a single target (such as the fire and ice rods from LttP) have more or less been established as being similar to weapon attacks. You roll a |magic| skill check against the target's defense (which probably should not allow shields, barring special exceptions like the mirror shield), and deal damage for each success, just like a weapon. Area-effect offensive spells work similarly, but you roll an unopposed check against a specified target number (probably dictated by the spell) and deal damage for each success to all targets in the area of effect.

    As for defensive, healing, utility, and buff spells, I was thinking it could be done as an unopposed |magic| skill check to see if you successfully cast the spell. Different spells or items would have different requirements, and you'd have to beat the spell's requirements to use it successfully. For instance, the Cane of Somaria would have a pretty low requirement, let's say just 1 success against a threshold of 2 (ie, 2 or greater counts as a success), whereas Nayru's Love would have a much higher requirement, something like 2 successes against a threshold of 5 or 3 successes against threshold 3.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)13:07 No.15230374
    It was generally decided that it didn't fit for a Zelda game, since players shouldn't really be allowed to craft their own gear. Alchemy can stay because it's just for relatively minor consumables (potions and bombs), but PCs shouldn't be able to simply sit down and craft themselves a sword or a hookshot or what-have-you rather than having to track down the appropriate NPC craftsman or dungeon.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)13:08 No.15230380
    We thought that things like that were more appropriate for NPC's to handle.

    I've been handling the brunt of the monster stats, so I've done them something like this.

    >Special: Dislikes Smoke (Weakness)- An explosive thrown into a dodongo's mouth between it's charge and fire breath attack ignores the dodongo's armor and does 2x damage.
    >Exposed Flank (Weakness)- The Dodongo has no armor on it's flank

    They're kind of hard to word properly, but hopefully they get the point across.
    >> Sir Scribe 06/11/11(Sat)13:08 No.15230382
    Ah, ok that makes sense. Glassblowing would be game-breakingly overpowered anyway.

    Not sure if trustworthy...
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)13:09 No.15230385
    How does skills like stealth work? also it would be nice if there were techniques that could give u advantages from hiding like maybe more damage to an attack, and those kinds of things
    >> Sir Scribe 06/11/11(Sat)13:13 No.15230432
    How are we doing flanks? 4e-style flanking, or are we actually tracking orientation in addition to battlefield position? I also saw the "Flanking" keyword applied to a monster or to; what exactly does that do?

    Stealth I imagined is a Physical Wisdom check against a creature's... I dunno. Spiritual Wisdom, let's say, in order to avoid being seen. And yeah, a bunch of the techniques with Stealth prerequisites are dirty ninja backstabbery.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)13:17 No.15230466
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    I proposed a sort of Facing mechanic, where defenders could defend against an area instead of just one creature.

    but for people who don't like/ can't use a combat grid, flanking could be handled by having a monster keep it's attention on one creature at a time, and certain techniques a la Wind Waker could let a character roll around to the back.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)13:18 No.15230479
    There should definitely be techs like that one for sheikah they would be awesome
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)13:24 No.15230547
    On the subject of stealth, should we add a |perception| skill to oppose the |stealth| skill? Having a skilled roll opposed by a skill-less roll doesn't seem like a good idea.

    Also, there was the idea that sneak attacks added your Wisdom score to your kept dice total (doubling the keep value if you're already using a Wisdom-based weapon, or simply increasing it if you're using a different kind), which I think sounds like a good way to do it, but the question is: should this be a standard thing anytime you get the drop on an opponent, or should it be a (low-cost, low-level) technique under the |stealth| skill?
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)13:29 No.15230594
    i agree that there should be an oppossed skil to stealth, that would make things more fair. But then, how do we qualify to try and make a stealth check?
    >> Sir Scribe 06/11/11(Sat)13:30 No.15230611
    Perception doesnt seem like it's varied enough to warrant an entire skill; We could bundle it into either Stealth (gotta be a dirty ninja to catch a dirty ninja) or Sway (Good at dealing with people; good at noticing them as well)

    As far as Skilled rolls vs unskilled rolls, Monsters dont have an official skill list to my knowledge, so...

    And I'd say make Sneak Attack a low-level technique, not an inherent Skill bonus. give it a very low Melee Prerequisite, and a low/moderate Stealth prerequisite.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)13:34 No.15230670
    Nothing else really seems appropriate for Perception, though. It looks to me like it's worth having as its own skill, if just to oppose Stealth. Considering all the nasty things that can happen when something gets the drop on you, I'd say it's worth it.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)13:39 No.15230711

    Then what would sneak attack do? does it gives u dmg increments? keep value? also, there should be some weapons that synergize with it i have something against someone sneak attacking witha a huge axe.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)13:40 No.15230726
    Would that work with a Willpower skill? (Spiritual Courage). I thought about it earlier, but it doesn't seem to have any applicaions outside of resisting spells or fear.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)13:40 No.15230731
    If you'll excuse my awkward playing.
    http://goo [DUT] gl/doodle/ccHKl
    To play yourself: 467 467 46709 78753 2353 467 467 46709 78075 7523
    http://goo [DUT] gl/doodle/HE1ap
    To play yourself: 532 532 532 32

    It's google.
    >> Timothy Turner 06/11/11(Sat)13:41 No.15230734
    I like the idea of perception. It could also be used for looking for bomb-able walls...

    Also, should I post the loot tables here to get looked over?
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)13:51 No.15230823
    See >>15230547

    I could see barring heavy weapons for use in sneak attacks, but I don't see anything wrong with allowing a one-handed axe (which would fall under |melee| skill.
    >> Sir Scribe 06/11/11(Sat)13:53 No.15230838
    Everyone likes loot.

    And alright, forgive my derp, I suppose Perception does warrant a skill. What techniques would be tied to it?

    Personally, if someone has enough ranks in |Heavy| AND |Stealth| a sneak attack, more power to them. In all seriousness, though, we could say Sneak Attack uses |Melee| weapons, not |Heavy|. It is theoretically feasible to sneak up on someone and bash them over the head with a mace or hammer, but Sneak Attack ond Stealth are both Wisdom based, so they bernefit Wisdom based characters, and by extension Wisdom-based weapons.

    I'd say a successful sneak attack adds Wisdom to your kept dice, as suggested earlier.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)13:56 No.15230860
    A hand axe is ok, but what i mean is that if there arent some advantages and disadvantages for sneak attacking with some weapons, we could get to the point that sneak attacing with certain weapons would be so powerful that then it would be pointless to even use other weapons.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)13:56 No.15230863
    If we wanted to take Perception and rename it to Acuity, we could potentially fit more into the skill than just noticing things. It'd probably still fall under Mental Wisdom no matter what we did though.

    I also noticed that Wisdom is the most prevalent virtue.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)13:59 No.15230877
    Random thought for a Perception technique off the top of my head...

    Spot Armor Chinks
    1 action
    Make a Perception check against [something]. If you succeed, your next attack against a chosen opponent within [close distance] ignores armor if that attack is made using a Courage- or Wisdom-based |melee| weapon.

    Something like that, anyway. Just throwing ideas around.
    >> Sir Scribe 06/11/11(Sat)14:00 No.15230879
    Remember, different weapons use different Virtues, and Sneak Attack is Wisdom based.

    Characters have limited points for virtues. If you tried to sneak attack with an axe or mace, you'd likely have 3 Power 3 Wisdom 1 Courage, which would mean 3 (Power) for the attack and 3 (Wisdom) granted by the sneak attack. 4 Wisom 2 Power 1 Courage, however, with a Wisdom base Weapon, would mean 4 (Wisdom for the attack and 4 (Wisdom) for the Sneak Attack. You get larger advantages for sneak attacking with a straight-wisdom setup than trying to use 2 virtues for one attack.
    >> Sir Scribe 06/11/11(Sat)14:03 No.15230904
    Spiritual, not mental. Spiritual is how close you are to the world, and how strong your connection is to it. Spiritual would be the go-to attribute for noticing hidden things and such. Just my 2-cents, anyway.

    That works, and I imagine another, high-level Perception technique could be the ability to track a creature even while it's invisible (Like a poe)

    What is Wisdom the most prevelant in? We're just talking about sneaky, dirty ninjas right now, for whom Wisomd IS the most prevelant, but many other characters dont give 2 shits about it.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)14:03 No.15230906
    This is a very elegant mechanic, i like it¡
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)14:08 No.15230930
    >Make a Perception check against [something]
    Physical Courage/Power maybe?

    Taking a look at the wiki, Wisdom appears more often than most other virtues. It's incorporated into most skills, defense, sneak attacks, and some weapons. With just Wisdom (and points into physical and spiritual), you can have good defense and offense as well as decent rolls for skills. I'm just saying that it seems like Wisdom is the go-to Virtue as far as pure crunch goes.
    >> Timothy Turner 06/11/11(Sat)14:11 No.15230954
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    And here is the loot table I drafted up (also in an image format):

    Monster Drop Table

    Roll 2D6
    02-04 : Nothing
    5-10 : Rupees (Green -> Orange incl. Rupoor)
    11 : Arrows/Bombs/Pellets
    12-13 : Seeds
    14 : Piece of Power/Guardian Acorn
    15-16 : Regeneration Items

    Arrows/Bombs/Pellets - D6
    01-02 : Arrows
    03-04 : Bombs
    05-06 : Pellets

    Seeds - D6
    01 : Razor/Armor(Roll 1D6 again)
    ->01-03 :Razor Seed
    ->04-06 :Armor Seed
    02 : Pegasus
    03 : Ember
    04 : Scent
    05 : Gale
    06 : Mystery

    Regeneration Items - D6
    01-02 : Heart
    03-04 : Magic Jar (Small)
    05-06 : Magic Jar (Large)


    Minimal Threat - 2D6
    02-10 : Green
    11-12 : Blue

    Low Threat - 2D6
    02-06 : Green
    07-11 : Blue
    12 : Yellow

    Medium Threat - 2D2
    01 : Green
    02-03 : Blue
    04-07 : Yellow
    08-10 : Red
    11 : Purple
    12 : Rupoor

    High Threat - 2D6
    01 : Blue
    02 : Yellow
    03-06 : Red
    07-10 : Purple
    11 : Orange
    12 : Rupoor
    >> Sir Scribe 06/11/11(Sat)14:12 No.15230957
    Hm. I personally had disagreed with Wisdom being the main Attribute for defense, since a Wisdom based character should either be in the back casting spell/shooting arrows, or ninja'ing so hard they're invisible, while a power based character would be a glass cannon or in so much damned armor that they've become a building. I had thought Courage should be the main Attribute for defense.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)14:15 No.15230987
    >I personally had disagreed with Wisdom being the main Attribute for defense
    I can agree with this. Having Active Defense be the only means of using Wisdom for defense (Acrobatics) might be the better course of action. Maybe. Anyone else have thoughts on this?
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)14:16 No.15230998
    I agree wisdom shouldnt be for defence, at least not physical
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)14:19 No.15231013
    I think it's fine. I think it was being lumped in with defense becuse the Wisdom based spells are largely defensive.

    So, Pasive Defense is now Physical Courage?
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)14:19 No.15231021
    This sounds like a good idea. Courage for passive defense and shields, Wisdom for acrobatic defense and parry (if you buy the skill).
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)14:21 No.15231029
    Also, if we make Courage the default Virtue for passive defense, that gives us a good space for a purchasable |acrobatics| ability to allow for Wisdom to be used for passive defense instead.
    >> Sir Scribe 06/11/11(Sat)14:21 No.15231033
    Physical Courage sounds good. I also figure shield would be largely Courage (For whatever aspects of shields needed a virtue, at any rate) except for blatantly power-based things like Shield bashes. What about dodging, though? Is acrobatics still Wisdom based for active dodging?

    and didnt we rename Shield to Guard and allow it to incorporate blocking with weapons?
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)14:29 No.15231093
    Why can't Shield use Courage for attacks, too?

    And I don't think it's a problem to rename it guard.
    >> Sir Scribe 06/11/11(Sat)14:32 No.15231109
    I just was using shiueld bashing as an example. I guess it would work the same way weapons do, with things like the Hylian shield being Courage, and giant darknut-esque heavy shields being Power
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)14:34 No.15231126
    where can i find the description for sneak attack? or is it the same as back slice?
    >> Sir Scribe 06/11/11(Sat)14:37 No.15231142
    If you're the same guy, you REWALLY like sneak attacks. We don't have an occifial stat block for it, but here.

    Sneak Attack
    requirements: 1 |Melee|, 2 |Stealth|

    While completely hidden from a creature, the PC may add their Wisdom score to their kept dice on their next attack. (Attacking a creatue reveals you to them, obviously)

    If anyone else has a better crunch for Sneak Attack, lemme know.
    >> Sir Scribe 06/11/11(Sat)14:38 No.15231149
    ok, mispelled "really", somehow, and forgot to mention that sneak attacks cannot be performed with |Heavy| weapons.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)14:41 No.15231160
    It may not be on the wiki; that thing really needs an update.

    The one issue I'd have with renaming |shield| to |guard| and allowing it to incorporate weapon blocks is that it makes a parry-happy swashbuckler a strictly weaker mechanical build than if we kept parrying as a technique governed by |melee|. If we have active dodging let you move a space, and shield defense give you bonus armor rating, we'd need to come up with something for parry defense to help it keep up. I'd rather just keep |shield| as |shield| and have parrying done by a |melee| technique, as proposed in the last thread.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)14:42 No.15231168
    Yes i am, i love stealth characters and all that parafernalia, thx for previewing it for me.
    >> Sir Scribe 06/11/11(Sat)14:43 No.15231184
    Hm, Parry could allow your Melee score take the placew of your Shield score in a block (obviously blocking with a weapon instead of a shield), and, if we make it a high-level technique, then you could also make an attack with the same action. Your thoughts?
    >> Sir Scribe 06/11/11(Sat)14:46 No.15231203
    (Ugh, I can't type today)

    another thing I thought of, while on the subject of Stealth, I think mass should affect stealth. Heavy Armor or Iron Boots would make sneaking much harder, after all, and a Goron is probably not as good at sneaking as a Kokiri or Deku, on account of size. I'm just not sure how to reflect it mechanically.

    >OSHIGE reyeta
    Captcha seems to have spotted a reyeta.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)14:55 No.15231261
    maybe -1 die in pool per mass over four and +1 per mass under?
    >> Timothy Turner 06/11/11(Sat)15:11 No.15231393

    This looks like it would work in theory.

    Could result in some players putting all their equipment on the tank and just weighing nothing and getting ridiculous sneak bonuses early in the game e.g Deku Scrub with no armour (or very little), a potion (weightless?), loot (weightless?) and a dagger (not 1 Mass) gets a +2 to doce pool straight out, 1d6 vs at least 3d6.

    This wouldn't be so much of a problem at higher levels, but at lower levels, it makes a stealthy character potentially unstoppable.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)15:13 No.15231407
    may i suggest that it would be 6 instead of 4 for penalty purposes? so a character would have a penalty for being more than 6 and a bonus for having a mass under 4. 5 and 6 for mass yield no bonus or penalty
    >> Timothy Turner 06/11/11(Sat)15:17 No.15231438

    That completely defeats the point of the Mass penalty as Gorons have a mass of 6 and therefor would be FAR worse than a Hylian at sneaking.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)15:21 No.15231463
    Well, about gorons having a mass of 6, i think they should have more default mass, and i think they should have bonus, (maybe in ball form attack) forhaving more mass.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)15:22 No.15231474
         File1307820120.png-(694 KB, 1500x1500, Lucen.png)
    694 KB
    Player Character concepts
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)15:29 No.15231537
    We talked earlier about Mass fitting into push and pull effects, and we came up with a set of catagories.

    >Light category: Mass 0-2
    >Average category: Mass 3-5
    >Heavy category: Mass 6-8
    >Superheavy category: Mass 9+

    Where Light creatures were moved 1 extra space by such effects, while Heavy ones moved 1 less and superheavy moved 2 less.

    Perhaps a similar system could be used for stealth? So a Light creature gets 1 extra roll die, and a heavy one gets 1 less?
    >> Timothy Turner 06/11/11(Sat)15:34 No.15231571
    If Deku Scrubs can have 2 i don't see why Gorons can't have 6. I do see what you mean about balancing, and I agree they should have some sort of compensation for the high weight class, but they DEFINITELY at least Mass 6.
    4 is just from light human to heavy human, 3 is approximately child weight, 2 is sub that. think up the scale 5 would be a significantly obese person, 6 would be morbidly obese. Compare a Goron to a morbidly obese person. Now think about how much denser Gorons are. Now you see why (even though it would be convenient) it would be inappropriate to change them to, say, a five?
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)15:40 No.15231618
    Yeah, i derped big time on that one, never mind me
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)15:44 No.15231663
    What are the current ideas about hiding? can we discuss em?
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)15:48 No.15231712
    We're talking about stealth right now, so nothing's stopping you.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)15:48 No.15231718
    The proposal in the last thread was a pair of techniques:

    Prereq: Melee 2
    1 action
    You've mastered the art of using your weapon to deflect incoming blows.
    You may take an action to ready an active defense using your |melee| skill (possibly required to be Wisdom based?) when wielding an appropriate weapon.
    >Possible edit for balance: Subtract 1 rolled die for parry defense using the basic Parry tech, and make an Improved Parry tech that negates this subtraction.

    Prereq: Melee 4, Parry
    Free action
    You've learned to use your parries to open gaps in your enemy's defenses, and exploit those gaps with lightning speed.
    When using a Parry defense, you may choose to subtract one {additional} die from your rolled pool. If you do, deal damage to the opponent for each success on that Parry defense roll, just as you would if you were attacking, in addition to the normal benefits for successes in an active defense roll.

    The skill rank prereqs might need a little tweaking, but this would give you an interesting choice for minmaxers -- do you put ranks into another skill to get a more effective active defense (either dodge or shield), or do you just pick up the Parry technique, letting you focus on |melee| but making your active defense slightly less effective?
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)15:52 No.15231775
    what are the prerrequisites to hide? and what advantages does it give??
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)16:38 No.15232171
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)16:44 No.15232221
    Seems to me that this would be pretty much common sense...
    Prerequisites are that you must have plausible opportunity to hide (ie, you can't just vanish into thin air in the middle of an open field in broad daylight).
    Benefits are that enemies don't know where you are, and thus can't attack you and won't react to your presence.

    Don't bump without content, we go through these threads fast enough as it is and /tg/'s not fast enough that 404 isn't really something we need to worry too much about.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)16:50 No.15232265
    maybe the system could use an adapted version of the errataed stealth rules of dnd 4e? Those rules are pretty complete.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)16:59 No.15232345
    Might be a little bit too crunchy for what we're going for. We're trying to keep this system as lightweight as possible, and spelling out specific details for precisely what conditions must be met for you to hide when this would basically just amount to common sense put into mechanical jargon seems pretty unnecessary.

    The one thing we should specify is how fast you can move while sneaking; other than that, leaving it up to common sense and GM adjudication is probably best.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)17:04 No.15232376
    What about this?

    Sneak Attack
    -Prerequisites: 1 |Melee|, 2 |Stealth|
    -XP Cost: Low
    Free Action
    Requirements You must be wielding a |Melee| weapon or a non-Explosive |Ranged| weapon.
    -While completely hidden from a creature, you treat your weapon's damage as +1/4H higher on your next attack.

    Hiding shouldn't require a prerequisite, as it's part of the stealth skill I imagine you would be hidden from a creature when you are no longer in it's line of sight. I don't know how to work that into stealth, though.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)17:09 No.15232411
    I rather prefer the added keep dice over increased damage increments for sneak attack. It helps to represent the advantage in hitting the opponent (since they don't know you're there, they can't react as well to dodge or block) and it keeps it tied in to Wisdom. And when you're potentially doubling your number of kept dice, that stands to add a lot of bonus damage increments, due to all the unopposed dice, so you're already getting the extra damage aspect of it.
    >> Timothy Turner 06/11/11(Sat)17:15 No.15232447

    Why not allow it to be taken more than once? Price could be low to start and x2XP every time you take it again, with a limit of maximum 5 retrains?

    x2 might be too little as it might be possible to overpower very quickly, but the principal still stands to make it still worth having at higher levels.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)17:15 No.15232449
    Im having trouble seeing how one pc could sneak attack with a melee attack from hiding.
    >> same mnitat Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)17:19 No.15232479
    the added dice is better than the dmg increment
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)17:21 No.15232499
    True, but keep in mind that you can very easily overshoot your Rolled pool if you add your wisdom score to your Kept pool. Not to mention that with a maxed out character, you are looking at a pool of 12k12. That is way too much.

    To model the accuracy, defenders could lose 1k1 on defense rolls when attacked by something they can't see, even if the attacker doesn't have the Sneak Attack technique.

    To keep it wisdom based, Sneak Attack could have a Wisdom prerequisite. I also thought of another technique to give dagger users (a Wisdom weapon) an extra advantage.

    -Prerequisites: 3 |Melee|, 3 |Stealth|
    -XP Cost: moderate
    Passive Technique
    -When you make Sneak Attack using a dagger, the sneak attack damage bonus increases from +1/4H to +1/2H.

    That gives beginning dagger users a damage increment of 3/4H.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)17:30 No.15232584
    >you can very easily overshoot your Rolled pool if you add your wisdom score to your Kept pool
    True, but didn't we decide to transfer kept-dice points to rolled when your keep value exceeds your roll? For instance, if you had 3 Physical, 4 Wisdom, and 3 |melee|, using a Wisdom-based weapon, your basic pool would be 5k5, and your sneak attack pool would be 5k9, which becomes 7k7.

    >Not to mention that with a maxed out character, you are looking at a pool of 12k12. That is way too much.
    First off, keep in mind that a completely maxed out character is *extremely* difficult to build, given the prohibitively high costs of increasing Virtues. Also, the high damage output from sneak attacks can be balanced by not making it like in D&D where anytime the target is remotely distracted you get sneak attack bonuses. I'd much rather see sneak attacks as rare but devastating rather than a way for a Wisdom character to consistently keep up with the damage output of a |heavy| weapon user on a turn-for-turn basis. Just make them work to get the sneak attack, and becomes all the sweeter when you pull one off for massive damage.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)17:35 No.15232633
    >and becomes all the sweeter when you pull one off for massive damage.
    *it becomes all the sweeter...

    Also, I should probably point out that the dice-transfer rule for lopsided pools will be necessary no matter how we do sneak attacks, since there will still be potential for scenarios where your keep count exceeds your rolled pool -- for example, a heavy-weapon fighter (high Power) who dumped Spiritual and has no ranks in |sway| trying to intimidate a moblin.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)17:38 No.15232664
    well, the prerrequisite that u must be hidden to make a sneak attack makes it more or less rare i guess.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)17:41 No.15232701
    I had thought that excess Keep dice were simply lost instead of going into the Rolled pool. I hadn't heard that anywhere else before.

    The thing about damage increments is that they multiply with every success. If a sword user (1/2H) gets 2 successes against an enemy, they deal 1H of damage. An axe user (3/4H) does 1+1/2H with 2 successes. It's more potent than it seems.

    What if Sneak Attack added your Wisdom bonus went into the Rolled pool instead of Kept? That would increase accuracy, and doesn't use the "extra Kept going into Rolled" thing which doesn't seem to make sense. That, or it could give you a flat +2k2 bonus.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)17:45 No.15232747
    We could try and treat excess rolled dice as if they had been rolled with a value of 1. Just giving them to the kept pool seems a bit overpowered because players might just ignore Attributes and Skills in favor of buying up Virtues, since having extra virtue gives you more Rolled dice and Kept dice.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)18:13 No.15233115
    I've been around since thread 1 and I'm pretty sure the consensus has always been that extra kept dice move to rolled, and that's what's currently on the wiki. I'm not sure where the losing extra kept dice bit came from.
    The problem with ignoring extra kept dice is that it makes Virtues meaningless without the Attributes and skills to back it up. Take the aforementioned example of the socially-inept fighter -- with his high Power score, he should be better at intimidation than a Courage fighter who's similarly inept in |sway| (though neither would be as good as someone with high scores in all of the relevant areas).
    Transferring extra keep points to rolled dice doesn't seem too unintuitive to me (you're just shifting the numbers until the pool is no longer lopsided) and keeps a high virtue relevant in all cases.

    Having sneak attacks add your Wisdom to your keep pool hits all the points we want to hit for the technique: better able to bypass defenses, extra damage, and keeps it Wisdom-based.

    >players might just ignore Attributes and Skills in favor of buying up Virtues, since having extra virtue gives you more Rolled dice and Kept dice.
    I don't think this will be a problem due to the high cost of increasing virtues and the cap of 6 on the Virtue score. A high Virtue only adds to your rolled pool if you don't have enough Attribute or skill points to match it, and each die moved to the rolled pool is subtracted from your kept pool. A player trying to use Virtues alone to make the character strong wouldn't have much success.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)18:23 No.15233237

    For example, based on a starting build of 4 Wisdom, 4 Physical, 3 |melee|, and 2 |stealth| (maxed for character creation), and based on the costs listed on the wiki for increasing Virtues, Attributes, and skills, we could make two different builds for the add-Wisdom-to-keep sneak attack:

    >Build 1: 6 Wisdom, 4 Physical, 3 |melee|, 2 |stealth| (max Virtue)
    Total cost: 77 XP
    Sneak attack pool: 7k13 --> 10k10 (-3 keep / +3 roll)
    Stealth pool: 5k7 --> 6k6
    >Build 2: 4 Wisdom, 6 Physical, 6 |melee|, 2 |stealth| (max Attribute and skill)
    Total cost: 52 XP
    Sneak attack pool: 9k11 -->10k10 (-1 keep / +1 roll)
    Stealth pool: 7k5

    Rolls are calculated assuming that skills add +1 rolled die at every odd-numbered rank and +1 kept die at every even rank.

    Build 2 has the same sneak attack pool and a comparable (I would say slightly better, since with the extra rolled die his keepers are going to be higher) stealth skill check at a significantly lower price.
    Also, both of these builds are assuming the player focuses on nothing but these relevant Virtues, Attributes, and skills after character creation. And given that we're looking at something like 5 XP per session, that means that even the more efficient build is spending some 10 or 11 sessions building up a single trick to the exclusion of all else.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)18:30 No.15233324
    Ok, you've sold me on the excess Kept dice issue, at least everywhere else but in a Sneak Attack situation. My fear for adding Wisdom to your Kept pool for sneak attacks is that it brings the cap for Kept dice above 6. even if that's a rare occurance, it gives the attacker way too many unopposed successes. Currently the monster's kept pools go up only to 5, possibly 6 for end-of-game bosses.

    A starting player with Wisdom 3 physical 2 and melee 2 (all reasonable scores) has a pool of 4k3 for a basic attack.

    With the current Sneak Attack rule, where they add their Wisdom to their Kept pool, they now have a rolled pool of 4k6, which becomes 5k5.

    That grants at least 1 unopposed success against any other starting player, even a minmaxed one, and at least 2 against all of the current Minimal Threat monsters.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)18:42 No.15233490
    Not to mention it's obtuse to ask your players to willingly invoke an exceptionary rule.
    >> Timothy Turner 06/11/11(Sat)18:56 No.15233673

    From what I see, either we need to find a way to limit how often this can be done *drastically* or weaken it by around 0k1...

    I suggest making sneak attacks only available on when a player has passed a stealth check against the enemy whilst under "superior cover" or is invisible previously then moving to attack from out of cover.

    That's just me though...
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)19:02 No.15233738
    I would argue that the unopposed successes are the entire point -- that's how you make sure bonus damage gets through. But I can see >>15233490's point that it would probably be better to avoid making players invoke a rule that was made to cover corner cases every time they want to use their character's signature move...

    But on the other hand, I can't help but admire the elegance of the mechanic. Like I said before, it captures everything we want to see in a sneak attack using a single modification...

    I guess what it really boils down to whether we want a mechanic that's simple to explain ("Add your Wisdom to your kept dice total") but frequently invokes one of the more complicated rules of the system, or one that takes several components to capture the desired effect (increased ability to hit the enemy, increased damage, Wisdom-based) but avoids rules that are kind of weird in and of themselves.

    Though thinking about it a bit more, I suppose it probably makes the most sense to have any attack made on an enemy unaware of your presence (whether you have the sneak attack tech or not) bypass defenses -- say, always rolls against passive defense even if enemy had active defense readies, and possibly makes the enemy take a penalty to the roll as well -- and then the technique gives a damage increment bonus. However, I will say I think the damage bonus should be more significant than just 1/4 or 1/2 heart. A sneak attack shouldn't be merely equivalent to a strike with a sword or axe -- it should be significantly more deadly as a reward for the extra effort necessary to set it up.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)19:06 No.15233772
    "A sneak attack shouldn't be merely equivalent to a strike with a sword or axe -- it should be significantly more deadly as a reward for the extra effort necessary to set it up".

    I agree with this statement
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)19:13 No.15233846
    Using passive defense is a good idea.

    Should we just say that sneak attacks do double damage, then? That increases average damage (1/2H) to 1H per success, which is enough to kill many creatures outright with 3 succeses. If you want to make daggers extra deadly, that backstabbing technique could bump dagger damage up to 2H damage per success in a sneak attack, something that not even Power based characters can achieve.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)19:14 No.15233859
    >I suggest making sneak attacks only available on when a player has passed a stealth check against the enemy whilst under "superior cover" or is invisible previously then moving to attack from out of cover.
    I doubt we'll be using rules for degrees of cover/concealment like in D&D, but I think it goes without saying that the enemy needs to be completely unaware of you if you want to make a sneak attack. While D&D's system of "flanking = sneak attack" is important for letting rogues keep up in combat in that game, it always struck me as a bit odd.

    I think a rogue who darts out of the shadows for a devastating sneak attack, then immediately withdraws to get out of sight to set up another hit a couple rounds later is a much more interesting figure than one who just stays in close and has his buddy distract the enemy a little so he can get a better shot at the squishy bits.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)19:15 No.15233871
    forgot my namefag.

    There's the issue of making the technique Wisdom based, though... but because |Stealth| is already Wisdom based, maybe a Wisdom prerequisite of 3 or so is enough.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)19:17 No.15233890
    i thought heavy axes deal 2H damage already? am i missing something?
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)19:22 No.15233926
    I dropped down the starting values of Heavy weapons from 2 and 1+1/2H to around 1H, to account for weapon upgrades later on during a game that would restore them to their original damage value.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)19:27 No.15233980
    Double damage would only bring a dagger (1/4h increment) up to par with a sword (1/2h), which is incredibly lame for the backstabbity types. If we're going to make it tricky to set up a sneak attack (which I think we should), we're going to need a significant payoff for the effort of meeting those requirements.

    What I was getting at with the Wisdom-based part was that I think the effectiveness of the sneak attack itself should be dependent on Wisdom. We could just make sneak attacks always key to Wisdom regardless of the weapon used -- it'd cause a little weirdness with stuff like maces, but nothing that can't be handwaved away.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)19:28 No.15233987
    A totally alternate proposal that seems less complex to this passerby: D&D has a suprise round of some sort that occurs -before- initiative and stuff. We could just have sneak attacks be an extra attack taken before the battle properly begins.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)19:31 No.15234018
    And then what would a backstab-happy ninja do after that surprise round? Pick away at the enemy doing piddly amounts of damage with no way of playing to his strengths to do anything meaningful?

    No thanks.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)19:37 No.15234078

    This idea turns the ninja concept fun for just one turn in all the combat, and that sucks
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)19:44 No.15234150
    I mentioned that daggers could be boosted to do a total of 1+1/2H or 2H damage per success with a sneak attack, which is very generous.

    And making it a Wisdom-based attack is a very good idea. Maces is one of the easier ones to explain away- you're thumping your enemy over the head.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)19:54 No.15234246
    >I mentioned that daggers could be boosted to do a total of 1+1/2H or 2H damage per success with a sneak attack, which is very generous.

    Looking back, I see that I derped and missed that you were referring to a separate technique to increase dagger sneak attack damage. At the time I posted that comment, I wasn't seeing where you were getting those damage increments from a simple doubling from the sneak attack.

    I'd still rather just see a flat, significant damage increase in the basic sneak attack, though. Requiring a ninja-type character to buy *two* separate techniques (one of which only applies to a specific weapon) to make their build viable where a swordsman can be just as effective entirely sans techniques doesn't strike me as very balanced.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)20:06 No.15234376
    Should the increase in dagger damage just come with the Sneak Attack, then? We could also expand the big damage increase to include all one-handed Wisdom weapons, including one-handed thrown weapons like needles.
    >> Tagman 06/11/11(Sat)20:08 No.15234398
    I did a thing with the monsters on the wiki.

    It's not completely there yet, but it's close enough.

    I want some way of helping GMs come up with "big puzzles" for dungeons, but I can't think of how it should work.
    For example, a desert/water dungeon (Oasis Palace, whatever) where you move water to remove quicksand, create pools to dive in, etc.
    >> Sir Scribe 06/11/11(Sat)20:24 No.15234549
    Perhaps a very low-level technique for Stealth could be a damage increase with Wisdom-based Melee weapons? That way a mage with a backup dagger would do 1/4 increments, but a dirty ninja would do more, to reflect their increased ability to discern the squichy bits from the less squishy bits.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/11/11(Sat)20:26 No.15234572
    I love what you did with the tables, but why did you change everything into quarter-hearts? It's much more confusing that way.

    I also feel that some of the tags need editing too, but that can come later.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)21:00 No.15235011
    I like that idea. Have the sneak attack tech give a flat damage bonus regardless of the weapon used, then have another technique that brings daggers and other ninja-style weapons up to par with swords.

    Something like...

    Sheikah's Strike
    Stealth 3
    XP cost: <low>
    Passive ability
    The damage increments for one-handed Wisdom-based melee and thrown weapons you wield are increased by 1/4 h.
    >> Tagman 06/11/11(Sat)21:05 No.15235061

    I can't give a load of reasons why I made it all quarter hearts (damage increments mostly being in quarter hearts and someone else making a fairly good argument for the idea are the main ones), but I'm fairly sure if I changed it the sorting wouldn't work for that category any more.

    Unless I made them like 1.5 and 0.25, which I don't think look as nice as 6/4 and 1/4.

    I'm mostly active on the wiki, so feel free to tell me what tags need changing now (hopefully not Freeze because I feel it's about right now).

    I wish the free DSiWare Four Swords was out now so I could experience how Nintendo did multiplayer puzzle design...

    Although I'm pretty sure it didn't involve "stipaves space.", Captcha...

    I also kinda want to stat up Oasis Palace as a sixth dungeon (so everyone's got at least 8 Hearts and at least 5 items to solve puzzles with, although I'm not sure what 5 items)...
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)21:21 No.15235235
    May i suggest the next racial skill
    Shadow veil
    * Requirements: Sheikah
    * XP Cost: ?
    * Actions: 1
    * MP Cost: 2
    This allows the sheikah to surround himself with cloaking shadows making him invisible until he attacks or until damaged, he may not turn invisible the next turn he losses this effect.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)22:00 No.15235620
    Just keep them as regular hearts, that's how we've been doing it.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)22:10 No.15235692
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)22:29 No.15235870
    May i ask who has the last word in modifying or rejecting things about the system?
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)22:31 No.15235890
    I do.

    >istrool authority
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)22:38 No.15235944

    What the heck does istrool authority means?
    >> Sir Scribe 06/11/11(Sat)23:17 No.15236351

    This seems like it would fit Twili more; Shiekah have only ever to be shown using Flash Bombs for such purposes.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)23:40 No.15236564
    If you're the final authority, what does this look like for Sneak Attack?

    You are hidden from a creature if the creature cannot or has not detected you.
    If you attack a creature you are hidden from, the creature takes a -2k2 penalty to it's defense against your attack.

    Sneak Attack
    -Prerequisites: 2 |Melee|, 2 |Stealth|
    -XP Cost: Low
    Free Action
    Requirements: You must be wielding a |Melee| weapon or a non-Explosive |Ranged| weapon.
    -When you attack a creature you are hidden from, your attack uses Wisdom instead of it's usual Virtue and does 2x damage.

    -Prerequisites: 2 |Melee|, 3 |Stealth|
    -XP Cost: Low
    Passive Technique
    -You treat daggers as having a Damage Value of 3/4H instead of 1/4H while using Sneak Attack.

    Assassin's Training
    -Prerequisites: 2 |Melee|, 2 Wisdom
    -XP cost: Low
    Passive Technique
    -Wisdom-based Melee weapons do +1/4H more damage.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag. 06/11/11(Sat)23:41 No.15236573
    Forgot my namefag again.

    All in all, a dedicated roguish sort could do up to 2H of damage per success with those techniques, and less speicalized Wisdom users can benifit from the general increas in Wisdom weapons.
    >> Anonymous 06/11/11(Sat)23:42 No.15236576
    What about this then?
    Flash bomb vanish
    * Requirements: Sheikah
    * XP Cost: ?
    * Actions: 1
    * MP Cost: 2
    The sheikah detonates a bomb at his feet and then he can moves turning hidden at the end of that movement remaining so until he attacks or until damaged.
    >> Sir Scribe 06/11/11(Sat)23:44 No.15236605
    Looking good, but I'm not sure about Backstab being dagger-only. Then again I guess we don't have any other wisdom-based melee weapons. I suppose we could add garrottes or something for sneaky bastards.

    and I was joking about being final authority.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag. 06/12/11(Sun)00:09 No.15236837
    Quarterstaffs and longspears are currently Wisdom-based.

    Also, someone on the wiki changed Bombchu to Ranged/Wisdom from Ranged/Power.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag. 06/12/11(Sun)00:11 No.15236849
    Quarterstaffs and longspears are currently Wisdom-based. Maybe longspears shouldn't get the bump, though. Or get moved to Courage and consolidated with lances.

    Also, someone on the wiki changed Bombchu to Ranged/Wisdom from Ranged/Power.
    >> Cz 06/12/11(Sun)00:27 No.15236989
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    I redid the Mystery Seed list from the last thread. Better? Worse?

    Mystery Seed Outcome Table

    1) Element
    -(Roll 1d6 Again)
    -1) Dud (Nothing)
    -2) Fire
    -3) Ice
    -4) Electric
    -5) Light
    -6) Dark

    2) Summon
    -(Roll1d6 Again)
    1-2) Minimal Threat
    3-4) Low Threat
    5) Moderate Threat
    6) High Threat

    3) Polymorph
    -(Roll 1d6 Again)
    1-3) Reassign Skill Points
    4) Reassign Virtues
    5) Reassign Attributes
    6) Change Race

    4) Invisible
    -(Roll 1d6 Again)
    1-2) Invisible for 2 Turns
    3-4) Invisible for 3 Turns
    5-6) Invisible for 4 Turns

    5) Create Dropped Item
    -(View Dropped Items List)

    6) Warp
    -(Roll 1d6 Again)
    1-2) 1 Meter in faced direction
    3-4) 2 Meters in faced direction
    5-6) 3 Meters in faced direction
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag. 06/12/11(Sun)00:33 No.15237069
    It might work best if you have them work like they did in the Oracle games: Copy the effect of one of the other seeds- Scent, Ember, Pegasus and Gale.

    You could use the Deku nut stun effect or possibly an explosion for the last two slots, or make up your own. I don't think that having ammunition summon creatures is a good idea.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)00:46 No.15237212
    Assassin's training might work better if we had it work for one-handed melee Wisdom weapons as well as thrown Wisdom weapons. That way we don't get staves and spears with it, and stuff like needles and shuriken would be included.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)00:58 No.15237311
    >Maybe longspears shouldn't get the bump, though. Or get moved to Courage and consolidated with lances.

    I like the idea of moving spears to Courage, but I think lances should probably stay a separate entity.
    Also, would anyone be opposed to renaming "longspear" to "pike"? I really dislike the name "longspear", and pike is a perfectly accurate name for the weapon we're describing. Also more appropriate for the technological/cultural level of the setting.

    >Also, someone on the wiki changed Bombchu to Ranged/Wisdom from Ranged/Power.
    This actually doesn't sound bad to me. About the only thing that makes Bombchus qualify for Power is the fact that they're bombs, but the actual use of them seems more like a Wisdom thing to me. Planning out the course and such.

    This seems ridiculously strong. I'm gonna have to second TCN's suggestion here >>15237069.
    >> Cz 06/12/11(Sun)01:05 No.15237371
    Ye shall receive.

    Mystery Seed Outcome Table

    1) Effects of a Razor Seed
    2) Effects of a Armor Seed
    3) Effects of a Ember Seed
    4) Effects of a Scent Seed
    5) Effects of a Pegasus Seed
    6) Effects of a Gale Seed
    >> Cz 06/12/11(Sun)01:10 No.15237415
         File1307855455.jpg-(20 KB, 362x380, istockphoto_1240652-scientist-(...).jpg)
    20 KB

    Not gonna lie, while this is far more balanced out, it does feels more boring. Ah well, we don't want this game to be a mess.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)01:18 No.15237503
    Once things finally start to take shape, we can implement some of the crazier things like summoning magic. For now it might be best to work out the big kinks.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)01:21 No.15237520
    as a avoid zelda player and someone who has tried running the zelda d20 game I would like to offer my services, I just want to know what we currently need to get worked on.
    >> Z-Cracka 06/12/11(Sun)02:05 No.15237936
         File1307858754.jpg-(214 KB, 625x778, Tyrm!Kid.jpg)
    214 KB
    Workan on character concept. Hylian Kid startan off with Power 4 and Physical 4. Endgame: He'll (Hopefully) be an adult, and more than likely can cleave an iron knuckle in twain.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)02:23 No.15238089
    I don't know if I like having razor and armor seeds on the list for mystery seeds; they're rather dull compared to the seeds from the Oracle games.

    I like the deku nut flash better as one of the possible outcomes. And for the last, how about ripping from D&D's Prismatic Spray and having sixes be a "reroll twice, use both outcomes".

    Sixes in the double-reroll do nothing...unless you get double sixes, in which case the GM has free license to come up with something amusing (but more or less harmless). For example, the subject's skin takes on a bright puce hue...

    Or we could just have the 6 be a reroll on a table of such things. That could be fun.
    >> Timothy Turner 06/12/11(Sun)02:27 No.15238125

    I agree here, I think that armour/razor seeds would be preeetty much useless on that chart. Either you want to stick with your first idea (which I rathere liked) or remove armour seeds and razor seeds and replace them with something better and more combat orientated.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 06/12/11(Sun)02:35 No.15238208
    I like the idea of Parry being used as part of counter-attacking, personally. Gives it a benefit different than other attack-avoidance options, and still useful.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)03:48 No.15238718
    I went ahead and changed the monster life columns on the wiki to use heart and fraction symbols, like: ♥ ♥ ½

    Much less confusing than the quarter-heart notation, close to the vidyas, and it (amazingly?) still sorts properly.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/12/11(Sun)04:11 No.15238831
    Thanks, that sounds really handy.

    I'm a bit wary of the wiki, since stuff that gets put up there is in danger of being erased or edited by someone else.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)06:52 No.15239712
    Thread done got archived.

    >> Tagman 06/12/11(Sun)07:13 No.15239813

    Huh, didn't know we had any sorcerers on staff.


    If bad stuff happens, you can roll it back to a previous version and continue on.
    Although that doesn't completely get rid of the bad stuff - it's still there in the edit history whatever you do.

    So much work needs to be put into the dungeon design rules to get them where I want them to be (simple, easy to use, etc.)... Especially with different races invalidating different things.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)07:48 No.15239993
    >colors based on another talented poster's contribution
    thanks. yours looks a lot better.
    >> Timothy Turner 06/12/11(Sun)07:48 No.15239997
    Sir Scribe, TCN or anyone else like that (if you know what I mean): is there anything else that needs doing Crunch-wise?
    >Monster stats, techniques and spells, movement rules, XP costs and skill results all need work

    I'm not sure what needs doing anymore or if someone else is doing any of this?
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)08:06 No.15240102
    methinks instead of having mechanics specifically for a sneak attack or having some sort of backstab technique maybe there should just be a general advantage gained from attacking an opponent from behind like negating their active defense or something and characters with stealth just have an easier time getting behind opponents. I think in most games they assume that characters pivot to face their attackers but are unable to do so when flanked thus they have flanking rules, so you could have flanking rules and just consider anyone who manages to sneak attack to be flanking for the first attack.
    watchu think?
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)08:47 No.15240376
    I notice the wiki only has low and minimal threat monsters posted. Did we never agree on stats for harder monsters like darknuts or did we just want to leave them up to the DM's discretion?
    >> Timothy Turner 06/12/11(Sun)09:05 No.15240486

    I don't think they've been written out yet.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)09:10 No.15240510
    Going to post some moderate threat monsters for review before I add them to the wiki. Before I stat them let's just agree if they are all in the right places:

    -----Minor Threat-----

    -----Low Threat-----

    ----Moderate Threat----
    Armos Statue
    Stalfos Warrior
    Hylian Captain
    Floor Master
    Ball and Chain Warrior

    -----High Threat-----
    Stalfos Champion
    Darknut Warrior
    Darknut Champion
    Iron Knuckle
    Lizalfos Ancient
    Wall Master
    Giant Poe/King Poe

    ----- Legendary Threat (Classic Recurring Bosses)-----
    King Dodongo/Helmasaur
    Dark Prophet (Phantom Ganon/Aghanim)
    Shadow of the Hero
    The Armos Knight Legion

    -----Immortal Threats-----
    >> Timothy Turner 06/12/11(Sun)09:17 No.15240556

    I thought the Ball and Chain warrior was high threat, but I could be wrong. Other than that, it looks about right.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)09:24 No.15240607
    I wasn't sure. He probably could be, but in link to the past he's one of the first enemies you fight. Probably a mini-boss in most cases.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)09:43 No.15240713
    Added to the wiki:

    Also still under development and undergoing brainstorming, here is a list of some basic armor and shields. In the current incarnation skills and virtues are probably best to NOT be used with armor, though shields will use them normally. The number after the dash indicates the damage increment (in hearts) by which the armor reduces damage taken, and anything after a second dash denotes additional modifiers. For shields, their values are counted for active defense only.

    Light Armor
    Woven Cloth Tunic----0 heart----wind resist, enchantable
    Tanned Leather----0 heart----electric resist
    Padded Leather----1/4 heart----electric resist
    Deku Vestment----1/4 heart----fire weak, water/ice resist

    Medium Armor (+1 Mass, -1 Acrobatics)
    Coiled Chain Armor----1/4 heart----results from stored ball and chain, penalties stack with other armor
    Darknut Half Plate----1/4 heart----can be converted
    Iron Chest Plate----1/2 heart
    Stalfos Regalia----1/2 heart
    Chain Mail----1/2 heart
    Blue Mail----1/2 heart----ice resist
    Red Mail----3/4 heart----fire resist, additional +1 mass

    Heavy Armor (+2 Mass, -2 Acrobatics, No Special Maneuvers while Equipped without Special Training)
    Goron Steel Raiment----1/2 heart----allows rolling
    Hylian Warded Mail----1/2 heart----spell resist
    Darknut Full Plate----3/4 heart----can be converted
    Gerudo Black Armor----3/4 heart
    Iron Knuckle Full Suit----1 heart----additional +1 mass

    Deku Shield----1/4 heart----1 extra die with active defense, fire weak, water/ice resist
    Armos Shield----1/4 heart----1 extra die with active defense, fire resist
    Iron Shield----1/4 heart----1 extra die with active defense
    Gauntlet----1/4 heart----occupies shield slot
    Great Shield----1/2 heart----2 extra dice with active defense
    Mirror Shield----1/2 heart----1 extra die with active defense, reflective
    Biggoron Shield----1 heart----3 extra dice with active defense, two actions to use
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)10:12 No.15240859
    Going to try to stat a few:

    -----Low Threat-----

    Mini-Moldorm--?--2 Hearts--8--5--Spiked Bump [Knockback 2]:3k3(2/4 Heart)--1--3k3--N/A

    Fire-Keese/Ice-Keese--?--3/4 Heart--1--2/Fly8--Bite:3k3(2/4 Heart)--1--5k3--Flyby Attack, Ignite/Freeze

    ----Moderate Threat----

    Armos Statue--Construct--4 Hearts--12--4--Crush:4k3(3/4 Heart)--1--Explode:5k3(1 Heart)--1--4k3(2/4 Heart)--N/A

    ReDead--Undead--4 Hearts--6--3--Drain Life: 8k8 (1/4 Heart)--1--4k3--Fearful Presence

    Gibdos--Undead--6 Hearts--7--3--Drain Life: 8k6 (2/4 Heart)--1--4k3--Fearful Presence

    Stalfos Warrior--Undead, Skeleton--6 Hearts--6--6--Sword: 5k4 (2/4 Heart)--1--Leaping Strike: 6k5 (2/4 Heart)--3--5k4(1/4 heart)/6k4 with shield up--Rise Again

    Wolfos--Beast--5 Hearts--5--7--Claw Swipe: 5k4 (2/4 Heart)--1--Leaping Strike: 6k5 (2/4 Heart)--3--4k4--N/A

    Dodongo--Dragon--5 Hearts--10--2--Bite: 5k4 (2/4 Heart)--1--Fire Breath [Charge]:4k3 (3/4 Heart)--4--4k3(2/4 heart)--Bomb Vulnerability [Ignores Armor]
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)10:34 No.15240983

    ----Moderate Threat----

    Moblin--Goblin--6 Hearts--8--6--Spear: 6k5(2/4 Heart)--2--5k4--Charge

    Hylian Captain--Human--4 Hearts--4--6--Trident: 5k4(2/4 Heart)--1--5k4(1/4)--Charge

    Like-Like--Ooze--6 Hearts--8--4--Engulf [Thieving]:6k5(1/4 Heart)--1--5k4(Armour)--N/A

    Lizalfos--Dragon--4 Hearts--4--6/Jump8--Sword: 5k4 (2/4 Heart)--1--Leaping Strike: 6k5 (2/4 Heart)--3--5k4--N/A

    Poe--Undead, Ghost--4 Hearts--1--5--Lantern: 5k4 (1/4 Heart)--1--4k3--Phase-Out

    Floor Master--Undead--5 Hearts--5--4/Levitate 6--Swipe: 5k4(2/4 Heart)--1--4k3--Surprise, Split (3 Mini-Floor Master)

    Mini-Floor Master----Undead--1 Heart--5--4/Levitate 6--Swipe: 3k2(1/4 Heart)--1--3k2--Grow (Floor Master)

    Beamos--Construct--3 Hearts--12--0--6k5(Damage)--10--4k3(3/4)--Bomb/Arrow Vulnerability [Ignores Armor]

    Ball and Chain Warrior--Human--5 Hearts--6--4--Ball and Chain [Heavy]: 5k4(1 Heart)--3--5k4(2/4)--N/A
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)10:54 No.15241069

    What about this technique? i think is great for a sheikah racial technique, i reckon that is a signature move for the sheikah as it is written in the the zelda wiki. Dont you agree?
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)10:59 No.15241104

    -----High Threat-----

    Stalfos Champion--Undead, Skeleton--8 Hearts--6--6--Ancient Sword: 6k5 (3/4 Heart)--1--Leaping Strike: 8k6 (3/4 Heart)--3--6k5(2/4 heart)/7k5 with shield up--Rise Again

    Darknut Warrior--?--6 Hearts--9--4--Great Sword [Heavy]: 6k5(1 Heart)--1--Unarmed Strike: 6k5(1/4 Heart)--1--6k5(2/4)---Remove Armor [Ignore Armor, +2 Speed, -2 Mass], Disarm [No Great Sword Attack]

    Darknut Champion--?--7 Hearts--10--4--Great Sword [Heavy]: 6k5(1 Heart)--1--Unarmed Strike: 6k5(2/4 Heart)--1--6k5(2/4)/7k5 with shield up---Remove Armor [Ignore Armor, +2 Speed, -2 Mass], Disarm [No Great Sword Attack or Shield]

    Iron Knuckle--?--8 Hearts--12--4--Great Axe [Heavy]: 6k5(1+1/4 Heart)--1--6k5(3/4)---Remove Armor 1 [Reduce Armor by 1/4, +2 Speed, -2 Mass], Remove Armor 2, Remove Armor 3

    Wizrobe--?--5 Hearts--4--6/Teleport 8--Fire Ball [Ignite]: 6k5 (3/4 Heart)--20--Lightning Bolt [Stun]: 8k6 (2/4 Heart)--5--Range--5k4--Summon: 3 Mini-blin

    Lizalfos Ancient--Dragon--6 Hearts--5--7/Jump8--Axe: 6k5 (3/4 Heart)--1--Leaping Strike: 8k6 (3/4 Heart)--3--Fire Breath[Ignite]: 6k5 (3/4 Heart)--10--6k5/7k5 with shield raised--N/A

    Wall Master--Undead--6 Hearts--6--4/Levitate 6--Plunge into Shadows[Grapple]: 5k4 (No Damage,Trapped in shadow world, Death of creature releases)--1--5k4--Surprise, Climb

    Giant Poe/King Poe--Undead, Ghost--7 Hearts--1--6--Sabre: 5k4 (2/4 Heart)--1--Lantern: 6k5 (1/4 Heart)--1--Fire Breath[Ignite]: 6k5 (3/4 Heart)--10--8k6--Phase-Out, Summon: 2 Poe
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)11:02 No.15241124
    I wouldn't make it a Sheikah racial ability. They might get it at 1 lower wisdom or 1 lower stealth than other races, but it should be open to nyone that wants to take it.

    Also, Sheikah aren't (entirely) a core race. We'll get around to them eventually but for now we need to finish ironing out the basics.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)11:05 No.15241155
    Ability should also require a weapon skill since that's what it is based upon. Something like:
    Stealth 3 (2 for Sheikah), Melee or Ranged 2
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)11:07 No.15241168

    Which are the "core" races then?
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)11:11 No.15241196
    >Core races consist of Deku Scrub, Gerudo, Goron, Hylian, Kokiri, and Zora, with more under discussion.

    Second post in the thread.
    >> Gurtyel Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)11:16 No.15241236
    I would like to help developing everything Sheikah related, Granted that u like Whatever content i may propose for them.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)11:17 No.15241249
    I think the idea was that we *don't* want sneak attacks to be based on flanking, a la D&D. See >>15233859

    Neat stuff!
    I'm no good with making stuff from scratch, but I am pretty decent with modifying stuff within a template, so I went ahead and split the Attack (Damage) column into one for the attack and one for the damage, so damage is now sortable too. I've only done minimal and low threat monsters so far, I'm going to take a break for breakfast here then finish up the rest. I'll probably do the same with Defense (Armour), unless someone else beats me to it.

    Just FYI, for some reason it doesn't like to sort the damage column until you sort the health column first, but after that it works ok.
    >> Tagman 06/12/11(Sun)11:19 No.15241273

    Has anyone outright stated what "wind resist" or "fire weak" mean?
    Is it like the racial "+1 Damage" things, where "wind resist" is one increment less damage and "fire weak" is one increment more damage?


    These all seem fine for now.
    Captcha wants to stick them through an "arencill Filter", then I'll render the remains down to Table fodder and feed the fiddly bits to the Tags.

    Might mutilate the Tables a bit, too - I want monsters to be sortable by attack accuracy and damage increment.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)11:20 No.15241276

    See >>15236564, and subsequent discussion of that post.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)11:21 No.15241289
    Haha, I beat you to it on the damage! >>15241249
    Though you're welcome to work on the attack accuracy, I didn't do that.
    Also, I just realized that minimal and low threat are all there are in the wiki in the first place, lol.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)11:24 No.15241308
    >----- Legendary Threat (Classic Recurring Bosses)----
    >-----Immortal Threats-----
    Do we want to include these at some point? Or would it be better to just write out good guidelines for stating your own dungeon bosses and campaign bosses and not rely on the rehashed classics that everyone knows?
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)11:25 No.15241316
    >a la D&D
    D&D doesn't consider facing. Just make it apply whenever they hit the target in the back or the target is unaware of the attacking character's location.
    >> Tagman 06/12/11(Sun)11:34 No.15241390

    I've already started work on it, so no worries.
    >> Timothy Turner 06/12/11(Sun)11:37 No.15241415

    I think the bosses from any of the games should be statted at some point because I know that if I end up playing or running this system, I would most likely use some of the bosses from the games.

    Considering facing makes sneak attacks / backstabbing easier, which is something we're trying hard to prevent. I don't see the problem with what we already have...
    >> Gurtyel 06/12/11(Sun)11:52 No.15241519

    Is this a good idea?
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)11:56 No.15241544
    It may not be related to facing, but it's still flanking-based sneak attacks. How you determine what makes the opponent "flanked" isn't relevant; what we're going for is that you need more than just flanking to pull off a sneak attack.
    As discussed earlier in the thread, we don't want sneak attacks to be an easy way for the stabbity types to just sit in close range and keep up with the heavy-weapon users as long as the party can keep the enemy distracted; we'd rather it be an infrequent but devastating hit-and-run "strike from the shadows" type of thing. Facing/flanking-based sneak attack rules make sneak attacks boring and commonplace.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/12/11(Sun)12:19 No.15241738

    Thanks for taking a stab at monsters. I made a list of potential monsters and their difficulties in the 8th thread: http://archive.easymodo.net/tg/thread/15139192#p15139618

    I'm still going to be working on them too. The way that monster difficulties are arranged makes me wonder if there shouldn't be "Mini-boss" or "Elite" catagories for monsters, since some of them are very difficult for their level. I can see Ghoma (from the original Zelda) or Dinolfos being a Moderate Threat miniboss monster, while Darknuts and Iron Knuckles are High Threat miniboss monsters.

    That's not to say that they should be taken on one at a time, but just to signify that they are much more challenging foes than any of the other monsters at their threat level.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)12:23 No.15241772
    No problem mate. We're all in this together. I actually was looking for your old post for a guideline but I couldn't find it at the time.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/12/11(Sun)12:32 No.15241846
    On a side note, is it possible to recover the old format for monster statblocks, or a way to arrange them into an easily readable format? It´s hard to read straight across for when GMs are going to run these creatures.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)12:35 No.15241865
    When we eventually get around to making a downloadable source we can put each entry into its own separate little stat block and give a little history and maybe a picture. For now though I think it's fine. Simpler is better.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)13:41 No.15242451
    Hod does attacking in gorons roll mode works?? how much damage? aoe or single target? power based right?
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)13:51 No.15242515
    makes sense. Or at least physical + chosen attribute.
    >> Sir Scribe 06/12/11(Sun)14:02 No.15242586
    In my own opnion, I think their should be more mass increases with armor, since mass does affect wind resistance, stealth, etc, with Iron Knuckle/Darknut armor having i'd say 3 mass (After all, they're [presumably] human, but have a mass of 12 in the beastiary) And those 2 armors in particular, for both PCs and Monsters, should offer more protection. Currently the highest-damage weapon I know of does 2 heart increments, and a full suit of Iron Knuckle armor, the most resistant in the game, drops it down to still 1 full heart. Maybe their high passive defense counters that, idk. The number just look weird to me; feel free to disregard.

    To my knowledge, Dungeon and Puzzle deswign still need tons of work, but I don't know if we should start on that yet. Seems like we should wait until we have all the other stuff we're discussing sorted out.

    If you want to go ahead and take a crack at it though, be my guest.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/12/11(Sun)14:05 No.15242608
    I would think that it's just a Physical Power roll. It should be powerful enough that it doesn't need the extra accuracy of a skill.

    Goron Curl- You can curl up into a ball as a Single Action. While curled up, you have 1/4H armor and cannot take any actions besides uncurling and rolling (see below). You remain curled up until you uncurl or are pushed or knocked down.
    Goron Roll- While curled up, as a Single Action you move twice your speed and make an attack against every enemy you move adjacent to.
    >Attack: Physical/Power, ½H Damage, Push 1
    >> Sir Scribe 06/12/11(Sun)14:07 No.15242618
    >Maybe their high passive defense counters that, idk.
    right, disregard me as far as armor values go. It only just registered that you would need to be ridiculously powerful to get more than one success reliably against a 6K5 or 7K5.

    >hardwood rtring
    I believe Captcha just named my Deku Scrub character for me.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/12/11(Sun)15:07 No.15243175
    What if Hylians, Gerudo and Sheikah were all grouped into the Human catagory? Their starting racial bonus would be a +1 to any virtue, like Hylians before. They would be able to differentiate themselves through racial techniques rather than a strange ability at character creation.
    >> Sir Scribe 06/12/11(Sun)15:32 No.15243369
    hmmm... how would that work, they reamian seperate choices, but have the same "racial" bonus upon character creation? and then they just have different techniques they can take? Or am I misunderstanding you?

    looked at the beastiary again; didnt Iron Knuckles do 2 heart damage increments? I believe we decided something along the lines of "Iron Knuckles arent to be fucked with. If one gets next to anybody who isnt a party tank, it WILL tear them a new asshole".
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/12/11(Sun)15:36 No.15243406
    That's right. Gerudo, Hylian and Sheikah all get +1 to a virtue (or whatever bonus we decide upon) at character creation, and thats it. But there would be discounts on techniques for certain races and race-specific techniques just for Hylians or Sheikah. They act as different flavors of "Human."

    And the bestiary needs editing, certainly. I'll go through and see if I can make changes without stepping on people's toes.
    >> Sir Scribe 06/12/11(Sun)15:38 No.15243424
    Ok, that works. The discounts seem like they would make Technique crunch a little too wordy in some places, though.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)15:48 No.15243517
    why not focus on the core races first before you go off on anything else also I am assuming you are mainly basing it off the ocarina timeline?
    >> Sir Scribe 06/12/11(Sun)15:53 No.15243582
    >why not focus on core races
    >discussing the core "human" races

    and it's based on the entire setting of the series; a GM can put a campaign wherever they like amongst the timeline. And what is the "Ocarina" timeline? OoT was the game that split the timeline in two in the first place.

    However it seems so far that the 7 years while OoT Link was stuck in the temple of time while all of Hyrule went to shit is a popular campaign setting.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/12/11(Sun)15:55 No.15243597
    1. We are talking about the core races.
    2. We aren't basing it off of any timeline in particular. Players can set their game in whatever Zelda world they want to. The core races are mostly from OoT because they're the most iconic

    I guess I meant lower prerequisites instead of discounts; something like a Sandwalking technique requiring 4 Acrobatics for all races except Gerudo, who can get it with a 3 Acrobatics. XP discounts might be too confusing, yeah.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)15:59 No.15243638
    I like that idea for human races. Makes sense to me.
    >> Sir Scribe 06/12/11(Sun)16:00 No.15243653
    hm... I suppose that makes sense. I would assume something like that would be far cheaper for a Gerudo. What kind of techniques would Hylians get?

    and something jsut came to mind; does Armor penalize Acrobatics? I got the mental image of an acrobatically dodging Knight in full heavy platemail. Perhaps while racial mass has no affect on Acrobatics, artificial mass (Hover Boots, Iron Boots, Armor) does result in bonuses/penalties?
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/12/11(Sun)16:09 No.15243757
    We could use this idea suggested here for Acrobatics as well as Stealth.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)16:13 No.15243800
    I feel like it might not be quite enough; after all, you can barely even move with the iron boots on in the games. I guess it kind of depends on how much weight armor adds, but I think -1k0 for every point of Mass added would be a good starting point.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/12/11(Sun)16:21 No.15243872
    Mass still affects your speed normally, so each point of Mass you gain takes a point away from your speed. The catagories thing could just be for skill checks. You can still duck and weave with boots on, but not quite as well.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)16:50 No.15244160
    Ah, that's true. I forgot about the Mass/speed connection.
    In that case, -1k0 for every mass category above normal should be fine.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)17:34 No.15244597
    so are you allowing river zoras as well as sea zoras?
    also why the addition of the kokirir considering they were only in 3 games.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)17:42 No.15244672
    River zoras will be in as enemies.

    And there's no good reason not to include them.
    >> Hero Ralph Wiggum !y.KCvh/R4I 06/12/11(Sun)17:45 No.15244692
    Do you guys still need writefag help? I'd be happy to of any assistance.
    >> Sir Scribe 06/12/11(Sun)17:56 No.15244793
    >> Hero Ralph Wiggum !y.KCvh/R4I 06/12/11(Sun)17:58 No.15244812

    What are you guys looking for specifically? World-building, city scaping, species back stories, etc. etc.?
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)18:08 No.15244913
    the problem with prerrequisites discounts is that for example if i want to make a traditional stealth sheikah (sheik like), i will want to create him with a lot of starting stealth points, so let say i want to take the flash bomb vanish tech described already, and normally it need a min of 3 stealth, but for sheikah it is 2 stealth i dont see the advantage here, because chances are i already have a high starting stealth endering the "sub-racial support" quite trivial. it would be just useful for an kind anti classical sheikah who doesnt want to be stealthy but wants that particular tech anyways (altough i have a hard time seeing how will he remain hidden after he uses it cause u know, he sucks at hiding). While i aggre with this kind of subraces system i just dont think the easier to get techs to be the way to go. We better make techs only usable for them than "help" them get certain techs easier. Or maybe we can just give them one or two certain techs (normally purchable for everyone)available for them since the beginning.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)18:14 No.15244962

    Please forgive my horrible writing (that post really sucked)i was kind of in a hurry when i wrote it. If you actually read it, thx for bear it.
    >> Timothy Turner 06/12/11(Sun)18:20 No.15245021

    Have we discussed this?

    Inb4: Hey. Listen!
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/12/11(Sun)18:25 No.15245057
    What are you good at? It's assumed that people playing the RPG will be familiar with the video games, but some fluff can help make understanding some things about the world.

    One thing that might be useful is descriptions of the archetypical Zelda worlds to give players ideas, like your typical Hyrule, the Great Sea, the Dark World, etc.

    Monster and race descriptions might be useful too. I'm having a hard time thinking of what specifically needs to be done, even though there's a lot.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/12/11(Sun)18:30 No.15245101
    It's been discussed, and I'm not sure if we've reached a consensus, but the idea is that a Kokiri's fairy can provide an advantage against an enemy.

    Maybe as a single action, a Kokiri can get a +1k0 bonus to attack and defense against a single creature (within 5 spaces) until the beginning of the Kokiri's next turn?
    >> Hero Ralph Wiggum !y.KCvh/R4I 06/12/11(Sun)18:31 No.15245109

    I'm pretty good at anything, as long as I have a specific task in mind, for example, fleshing out a specific race in this version of the world. Which, have you guys done any work on yet? Like, constructing the actual world and what it looks like and all that? I was just thinking, to keep in line with the Zelda feel, but to also give players enough freedom that they wouldn't feel railroaded into plots, we'd have to make a pretty big world. I'm talking tons of temples and villages, not just one or two territories heavily influenced by the franchise, I mean a functional Zelda world.

    I'd like to be a part of that.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)18:33 No.15245118

    Why dont we just use the zeldawiki.org page description for races and adapt from there. I dont see why we should change very much the descriptions they seem quite accurate already.
    >> Hero Ralph Wiggum !y.KCvh/R4I 06/12/11(Sun)18:33 No.15245122

    Keeping in line with how they were in the game, what if one of Kokiri fairy abilities were to inform the player of a specific advantage or disadvantage the enemy they were fighting has? Or maybe point out treasure they might not have noticed. Little stuff like that.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)18:38 No.15245167
    This is a very a good point. Simply reducing the prerequisites for a technique doesn't do you much good if you're playing to your race's strengths anyway.
    The best way to handle it is probably to give a standard flat reduction to the XP cost (probably just 1 or 2 points, since we're going with low XP numbers) for getting a racial technique, and simply tag certain techniques as Shiekah, Gerudo, or Hylian specialties.

    For example, if we gave a 1-point discount for racial techniques, then a rules block for a racial technique could be:

    Flash Bomb Vanish [Shiekah]
    Prereqs: Stealth 3
    XP cost: 4 (Shiekah 3)
    1 action
    Magic cost: 2 mp
    Detonating a flash bomb at your feet, you blind your foes and take the opportunity to get out of sight.
    When you use this technique, you may make a move action. If this action would put you in a position where you could hide, you may become hidden without need of a |stealth| check. You must still make |stealth| checks to avoid later detection.

    I've no idea of the XP costs and such there are balanced, but you get the picture.

    Also, since Hylians are the "balanced and flexible" baseline race, instead of racial techniques we could just give them a little bit of bonus XP to spend on whatever techs (and possibly skills?) they choose at character creation. Might be a little tricky to balance, though.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/12/11(Sun)18:39 No.15245177
    Right now, the idea is that there's no "set world" for the RPG, and that GM's can make up their own or adapt a setting based on a specific game.

    ...However, maybe it would be a good idea to have a sample "homebrew" setting. Close enough to the other games to allow for just about anything to happen (general enough to allow Wind Waker and Twilight Princess material to coexist) while retaining the landmarks and keystones of the series.

    If that seems like something you would like to do, by all means go for it.
    >> Hero Ralph Wiggum !y.KCvh/R4I 06/12/11(Sun)18:44 No.15245233

    I know what you're saying and I was thinking that to. Each game has its own unique world and challenges and puzzles, so having one flat world of stuff would go against the spirit of the Zelda universe. I'll see if I can't write up a sample setting anyway.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)18:48 No.15245273
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    I definitely think using the fairy guides for hints is the way to go. Kind of like using Knowledge checks in D&D, but probably not with a roll, and fairly limited in scope. In addition to giving tips on weaknesses and abilities of the foe in question, we could also use the suggestion here >>15245101 to give a mechanical advantage. Though perhaps we might not want to give the mechanical bonus in all cases...maybe just for the enemies that don't have any particular strategic factors involved?
    The same dice bonus could also potentially be applied to rolls made to solve puzzles, too.

    We should probably come up with sample fairy tips for the various monsters in the bestiary, and for any stock bosses and/or puzzles we stat up.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)18:51 No.15245300
    I would like to run some playtests, but i have one question, is there anyway somaone can give me an updated file of the rules? or i should just go with the wiki rules? does anybody keeps any kind of tracking about how the rules are going based in this discussions? something like an "official current version" of the rules. This thread has been going since yesterday and it would seem to me that one or two things have changed since yesterday.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)18:51 No.15245305
    You know, a fairy guide would be a good in-game medium for DM clue-giving.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/12/11(Sun)18:54 No.15245320
    The attack/defense bonus is supposed to model Z-Targeting, but the hint system is valuable too. Those could both be staring racial abilities for Kokiri, either seperate or consolidated.

    Some Kokiri techniques could let them use their fairy detect secrets or increase the attack/defense bonus.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)19:02 No.15245389
    Ostensibly the wiki is supposed to be the repository for current rules, but it's not very frequently updated and there's a lot of stuff that's missing.
    Maybe if I have some time tonight I'll try to go through the old threads and bring the wiki up-to-date, but I can't make any guarantees.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)19:07 No.15245423

    That would be very useful, i hope u can.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)19:55 No.15245836
    Question, the character creation section in the wiki says that the magic meter= mental+magic, but magic is nor a virtue, nor an attribute, wouldnt it be mental+spiritual?
    >> Sir Scribe 06/12/11(Sun)19:58 No.15245865
    Magic's a skill, bro.
    >> Cz 06/12/11(Sun)19:59 No.15245885

    I thought it was drummed up that we didn't want spiritual to be tied solely on Magic, so using the magic skill would be much more acceptable and logical. Especially if you plan on making a mage based character you'd focus more on Magic rather then Melee.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)20:02 No.15245913

    Never mind me, i just saw magic is a skill.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/12/11(Sun)20:14 No.15246059
    Your Magic meter is based on your Mental attribute.

    Trying to fix up the races again. It seems to me that Gorons are pretty darn powerful. They have the rolling ability, and can get techniques to resist fire, but currently they have no real weakness other than their speed. (Nothing in the games does Water damage).

    What do?
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)20:20 No.15246136
    well they can't swim...

    maybe give them fewer actions?
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)20:30 No.15246256
    I was about to suggest this actually something like
    Fairy Guide once per session you may ask the Gm for a hint on what to do, how to beat a puzzle, defeat a foe, etc

    personally I think fairies would make the perfect DMNPC they can't do a whole lot that takes away from the characters exploits but do allow the dm to have a voice in the group when there is no NPC around.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)21:27 No.15246926
    The fairy or any other "guide" if the GM includes one (like Midna or KoRL) should probably be allowed to do that anyway- It shouldn't replace the Kokiri's racial bonus.

    Otherwise, their racial bonus is "Once per day you can get railroaded".
    >> Hero Ralph Wiggum !y.KCvh/R4I 06/12/11(Sun)21:48 No.15247122
    >"Once per day you can get railroaded".

    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)21:50 No.15247138
    is it railroading if you need to know how to beat a puzzle?
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)22:01 No.15247236
    I guess I meant that the "Fairy guide giving hints" shouldn't be the Kokiri's racial ability, or at least not their only one. Compared to the powers that Zoras and Dekus get, it doesn't benifit them personally so much as it does the whole group. The accuracy bonus/ enemy hint system would be more appropriate for that.

    The GM could be able to speak up through a guide if the players are having trouble even if there isn't a Kokiri's fairy around, either.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)22:27 No.15247516
    Ok, reading the wiki, someone DEFINATELY needs to take a look at the damage increments of weapons. I can't help but have a problem with thrown rocks doing more damage than swords, and Heavy weapons seem to do low damage considering they attack half as often as normal weapons, and allow no sort of defense for the wielder.

    racial bonuses for Kokiri perhaps being the innate Z-target, as well as tips at the DM's discretion? and if you have a navi-like wordy bastard for a DM, just cram that fairy in a bottle.

    Vulnberability to Ice Damage? Living in a volcano'll do that do you.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)22:52 No.15247744
    I can format the monster stats for you on indesign if you want me to, since I am not so great at crunch.
    >> Sir Scribe 06/12/11(Sun)22:57 No.15247785
    Forgot my name again.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)23:05 No.15247844
    Changed the values back, once the "one attack per round" thing sunk in.

    Gorons with Ice vulnerability sounds fair, but Zora already have it. Maybe that's ok, though.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/12/11(Sun)23:12 No.15247889
    Forgot my name too.

    Here's what i have so far for the three most unusual races:

    Mass 6, Movement 4
    Goron Curl- You can curl up into a ball as a Single Action. While curled up, you cannot take any actions besides uncurling and rolling (see below). You remain curled up until you uncurl or are knocked down.
    Goron Roll- While curled up, as a Single Action you move twice your speed and make an attack against every enemy you move adjacent to. Attack: Physical/Power, ½H Damage, Push 1
    Goron vulnerability: Gorons take 2x Ice damage
    Goron Density: Gorons cannot swim and sink to the bottom of any body of water they enter. However, they can breathe underwater.

    Mass 2, Movement 8
    Deku Spit: Deku scrubs can fire seeds or Deku nuts as a Single Action. Atack: Physical/Courage, (variable)H damage, Range 5
    Deku Weakness: Deku scrubs take 2x Fire damage.

    Mass 4, Movement 6 (Swim 8)
    Aquatic: Zora have a natural swim speed, and can speak and breathe underwater.
    Zora Weakness: Zoras take 2x Ice damage.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)23:16 No.15247922
    How does Gorons being able to breath underwater make any sense? Maybe they can hold their breath for longer in case someone falls in and lacks any items that would allow them to breath underwater, but actually doing that as a natural trait just strikes me as completely odd.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)23:18 No.15247939
    I just realized something about the human races and the attributes.

    Gerudo - Physical
    Sheikah - Mental
    Hylian - Spiritual

    Thoughts on this?
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)23:19 No.15247944
    I like this and was actually about to post something very similar. Goron should also get fire resistance though.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)23:23 No.15247983
    Will other races like the Garo, Anouki, Minish, and Rito exist in this, despite being in different games?

    Can a character be human, but not Hylian?
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/12/11(Sun)23:24 No.15247989
    1) It makes it so that water isn't instant death for a goron, and allows them to be semi-useful in a water dungeon while still being a hindrance.
    2) Gorons can apparently breathe underwater in Twilight Princess.

    I thought so too, but that might have to be a part of Techniques instead, because Gorons are pretty powerful even without it.

    I can see "Goron" being almost like a class, in the amount of abilities it offers. They can do some crazy stuff.
    >> Sir Scribe 06/12/11(Sun)23:25 No.15247999
    >they can breathe underwater.

    ....also no. That's a bit limiting, especially since that would prevent players from optimizing a mal physical-based character.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)23:26 No.15248012
    > despite being in different games
    of course. we're making a Zelda RPG, not Ocarina of Time the RPG
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)23:28 No.15248032
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    Im creating this character that ill be using for playtesting, how is it going, did i mess up the rolls or something? insight is very much apprecciated.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)23:31 No.15248060
    >Vulnberability to Ice Damage? Living in a volcano'll do that do you.

    This has precedence. See: Majora's Mask, when their area got winter'd the fuck up and some of them got frozen into icy blocks.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)23:33 No.15248076
    I'm vehemently opposed to races becoming like classes, and I realize Gorons get a lot of perks compared to other races, but fire resistance is clearly one that they should have. They live in a volcano. If I remember correctly, in at least one of the games they can even walk through lava.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)23:33 No.15248082
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    >The Koroks are said to have once been the race of humanoid children-looking creatures called Kokiri, but by the time they meet a young Link upon the Great Sea, they have taken on wooden bodies. The Koroks became these creatures when they gave up their human selves for the ability to fly, with the help of an item called a Deku Leaf.

    Does this sound like a reasonable quest/reward for Kokiri?
    >> Sir Scribe 06/12/11(Sun)23:34 No.15248088
    >Gorons can apparently breathe underwater in Twilight Princess.
    That was one Goron, and still didnt make /any/ sense. Besides, for a Hylian to be useful in a water dungeon they need iron boots/golden scales AND a zora tunic/other underwater breathing apparatus. Gorons having a natural underwater advantage makes no sense.

    As someone mentioned earlier, Goron's would be clamoring for a XXXL Zora Tunic and Helium Boots at the notion of a water temple. Just as in a fire temple, the Goron would steamroll nearly every enemy while barely trying, because of fire resistance.

    A key thing that was brought up earlier was that we dont want to limit races to particular roles, because some people love the idea of a Goron mage, or Deku knight.

    Stupid laptop eating my posts.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)23:40 No.15248149
    I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that Goron keeps getting all sorts of powers and abilities, more so than other races. I can also understand that having that keeps it from insta death, but they could hold their breath for a reasonable amount of time, but Gorons are not designed for water. They're just not.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)23:40 No.15248150
    yeah i agree with this. The water dungeon should be the Zora's time to shine, and the fire dungeon the Goron's turn. It not only makes sense in universe, it adds a lot of game balance.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/12/11(Sun)23:44 No.15248175
    Water breathing dropped. And Fire resistance (Half damage) can be added in as a starting bonus, but I'm still not sure if that's too much.
    >> Sir Scribe 06/12/11(Sun)23:46 No.15248202
    Reviewing the Wiki, another concern caught my eye; did we change how shields work? If not, they seem to have become hideously overpowerd. I recall using a shield added you Shield skill value to your roll pool, not each shield having its own R/K bonus. The Armor Values I suppose I can believe, since we still need better shields to be... better. (I like the Biggoron shield, though. That'd make a helluva party tank.)
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)23:47 No.15248211
    well, i agree that u should be able to make a goron mage or a deku tank, however, it should be easier or more desirable to make a goron tank than to make a deku tank.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)23:50 No.15248225
    >and make an attack against every enemy you move adjacent to.
    this should probably be changed to
    >and you may move through spaces occupied by enemies dealing 1/2H damage and Push 1
    or something to that affect since you can't attack while rolled up
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)23:52 No.15248238
    I don't see what the point of having the shield skill is at all if the shields give their own r/k bonuses
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/12/11(Sun)23:52 No.15248240
    I don't think that Shields add to your defense dice (since using Active Defense already does that), but I think the advantage of using shields was that they reduced damage you took even while Actively Defending. Also, being able to use shield attack techniques is a pretty big perk.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)23:55 No.15248260
    who the hell added dice bonuses to shields? that's what the |Shield| skill is for. just delete that shit
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)23:56 No.15248273
    looks good to me.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/12/11(Sun)23:58 No.15248281
    That was back before we came up with Passive and Active defense.

    This makes more sense, revising.
    >> Anonymous 06/12/11(Sun)23:58 No.15248283
    >> Anonymous 06/13/11(Mon)00:01 No.15248304

    Well , if anybody has nothing to say about the character sheet ill proceed to run a simple encounter against a "rope".
    >> Anonymous 06/13/11(Mon)00:02 No.15248311
    Im going to stat up a few characters just to see how the chargen system suits me. I'll return with my opinions.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/13/11(Mon)00:04 No.15248331
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    The stats seem fine, but you kind of spraypainted over the Hearts and Magic Meter.

    There are little grey dots you can draw lines through to show what your maximum Life or Magic is.
    >> Sir Scribe 06/13/11(Mon)00:21 No.15248456
    How exactly did you get 6k4 ofor the dagger? I'm a bit lost...
    >> Anonymous 06/13/11(Mon)00:27 No.15248508
    Wisdom 3, Physical 4 (4k3) + melee 2 (+1k1), + daggers give +1k0 = 6k4
    >> Anonymous 06/13/11(Mon)00:27 No.15248511
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    my first attempt at character creation. Im trying to break the system, but this seems to have worked out well. The only problem i can foresee is that this mass 1 character has the same number of hearts as a mass 9 Goron, but then again there's something to be said for that.
    >> Sir Scribe 06/13/11(Mon)00:34 No.15248560
    Daggers give +1K? when did that happen?
    >> Anonymous 06/13/11(Mon)00:37 No.15248586
    it's been on the wiki that way for a while now
    >> Anonymous 06/13/11(Mon)00:49 No.15248667
    turn 1
    Me-> a1= move 6. a2= Atk dagger 6k4 vs 2k2---- 333435 vs 56 = 5433 vs 65
    result: (1/4)2= 1/2 H dmg to rope
    rope-> a1= atk bite 3k3 vs 4k2---- 363 vs 2211 = 633 vs 22.
    a2= 3k3 vs 4k2---- 5164 vs 5666 = 654 vs 66.
    result:a1= (1/2)3= 1 1/2 H dmg to me a2= (1/2)= 1/2 H dmg to me
    rope 1.5 h left, me 4 h left
    >> Anonymous 06/13/11(Mon)00:52 No.15248695
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    ok, so comparing these two shows a problem that may not be initially obvious. This mass 7 goron has far fewer hearts than a mass 1 deku scrub. Thoughts?
    >> Anonymous 06/13/11(Mon)00:52 No.15248697

    this is the map, I token is me and R token is Rope
    >> Anonymous 06/13/11(Mon)01:05 No.15248836
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    >> Anonymous 06/13/11(Mon)01:08 No.15248859
    it also doesn't seem to make much sense that a Mass 7 Goron only has Physical 1. Mass 5 sure, but Mass 7?
    >> Anonymous 06/13/11(Mon)01:11 No.15248890
    Exactly. People were saying they wanted to be able to play against type, and thats exactly what this build was trying to do. Making a mass 7, physical 1, 3 hearts character is possible within the rules.

    Im not saying it needs to be changed, im just pointing out that its there.
    >> Sir Scribe 06/13/11(Mon)01:21 No.15248978
    This is why Mass and Physical are 2 different scores. Who says all 7 of that Goron's mass is muscle? Maybe it's just an obese Goron. And remember, Physical isnt just about strength, it's also dexterity, agility, finesse, everything "Physical".

    and for hearts, here's an analogy. Fyrrus from Twilight Princess took 9-ish slashes to the head to take out of commission, and in this game he'd have a mass of AT LEAST 15. Zant, meanwhile, was at a nice even 4 mass and took a FUCKTON of stabs to decommission. If that's not an appropriate analogy (Zant being an endgame boss and all) look at king Bulbin. far smalle that Fyrrus or even normal Darbus, but still took more stabbities to drop.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/13/11(Mon)01:21 No.15248980
    Someone can be heavy and less than healthy. You can explain a high mass, low Physical character as being weak and overweight.

    Likewise, small characters with a high physical score could be in the prime of their life, or exceptionally hardy for their size.
    >> Anonymous 06/13/11(Mon)01:29 No.15249078

    what if i want next turn to hide behind a rock, i just move behind it and then suddenly im hidden (whithout any kind of check whatsoever)?
    also, it is a bitch to have to recieve automatic dmg everytime someone attacks just because the attacker keeps 3 and the defender keeps 2, if the attacker deals something like 1 1/2h per success the defender is screwed badly.

    On a side note, hod does initiative works against monsters?
    >> Cz 06/13/11(Mon)01:33 No.15249115
    Hey guys I've been growing complacent art wise. Wanna throw me some more requests? I can get to work on em sometime later tonight.

    >inputs, gratielo
    >> Anonymous 06/13/11(Mon)01:46 No.15249281
    a tiny deku scrub rogue-looking character, an elderly Zora wizard, a Goron warrior with a massive hammer
    and a female hylian with a bow and quiver. All arrayed in a "these are our heroes" shot suitable for a cover or chapter start.
    >> Anonymous 06/13/11(Mon)01:51 No.15249343

    i forgot to take into account power points and armor stats in atks and dmgs.

    Here is the corrected thing:

    turn 1
    Me-> a1= move 6. a2= Atk dagger 6k4 vs 2k2---- 333435 vs 56 = 5433 vs 65
    result: ((1/4)2)+(1/2)= 1 H dmg to rope
    rope-> a1= atk bite 3k3 vs 4k2---- 363 vs 2211 = 633 vs 22.
    a2= 3k3 vs 4k2---- 5164 vs 5666 = 654 vs 66.
    ar decrx#succes
    result:a1= ((1/2)3)-((1/4)3)= 3/4 H dmg to me a2= (1/2)-(1/4) = 1/4 H dmg to me
    rope 1 h left, me 5 h left

    Is this ok?
    >> Anonymous 06/13/11(Mon)01:56 No.15249394
    power points?
    >> Anonymous 06/13/11(Mon)01:59 No.15249423

    According to the wiki u get to incement 1/4 h per point in power to the total dmg u dealt with an attack action. I have a power of 2 so.....
    >> Anonymous 06/13/11(Mon)02:02 No.15249442
    what section of the wiki? I don't see it
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/13/11(Mon)02:02 No.15249445
    An adventurer holding a dodongo's mouth open and shoving a bomb down it's throat.
    A fat zora sitting on a rock, playing a lyre while various animals listen.
    A goup of adventurers sitting at a table in an inn, as a fried Octorok is brought to their table on a platter.
    A goron kid with two Gerudo kids on his shoulders.
    A Deku scrub skipping across a dungeon pool.
    >> Anonymous 06/13/11(Mon)02:04 No.15249456
    In the Basic System section near the bottom.
    >> Anonymous 06/13/11(Mon)02:09 No.15249501

    A stealthy dagger wielding sheikah jumping from a huge axe wielding gorons shoulders to attack some monster.
    >> Anonymous 06/13/11(Mon)02:11 No.15249517
    there's already one of a Goron throwing a Sheikah at a monster
    >> Anonymous 06/13/11(Mon)02:17 No.15249577

    Ohh yeah i have just noticed it, it is a great pic indeed, thx for pointing that out.
    >> Anonymous 06/13/11(Mon)05:53 No.15251156
         File1307958791.jpg-(67 KB, 429x410, 1297357488694.jpg)
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    I have no intention of reading the entire thread, but where would i play this?
    Is there some sort of online community i could join as apposed to IRL?
    >> Anonymous 06/13/11(Mon)06:00 No.15251184
    >Is there some sort of online community i could join
    at the moment, no. it's still very early in the development stage. we haven't even started any real play-testing.
    >> Anonymous 06/13/11(Mon)06:17 No.15251255
    Well, we should get around to setting up an online group of beta testers. I would be willing to volunteer my time
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 06/13/11(Mon)10:04 No.15252497
    Someone set up an IRC long ago that might still be useable for playtesting.
    >> Anonymous 06/13/11(Mon)10:06 No.15252516

    From the situation described in this post, how would one become hidden in the second turn? and if i wanted to melee sneak attack after im hidden how could i achieve it? any ideas?
    >> Anonymous 06/13/11(Mon)10:33 No.15252647

    well, i already started a playtest in this posts:


    but nobody seemed very interested, dunno, i even posted a detailed summary and the map as well as the character sheet. Maybe u could give me ideas as to what to try in next turn i already asked how can one get hidden from there but noody seemed to care hours ago. So.....

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