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  • File : 1310519352.jpg-(266 KB, 1200x776, Zelda_Twlight_princess_by_GENZOMAN.jpg)
    266 KB Legend of Zelda RPG Discussion Tech-Point gent 07/12/11(Tue)21:09 No.15560584  
    1d4chan page: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Legend_of_Zelda_RPG

    We need to flesh out Music a lot more; we basically have nothing. Magic is a little better, but still sparse. Of course, all drawfagging is much appreciated.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 07/12/11(Tue)21:30 No.15560832
    I have some WIP stuff I can try to add, including music levels and what they mean. In the meantime, here's some sketches (new stuff at the end).

    Kokiri and Deku Baba
    Gerudo mage and Stalfos
    Armos Statue
    Gohma (unfinished)
    Ghoma Larva
    Lizalfos and Octorok thumbnails
    River Zora and Geozard/Zora Warrior

    I'm still open for ideas.
    >> Dekufag 07/12/11(Tue)21:33 No.15560854
    Got me thinking. Deku: Can they summon Baba?

    Are we going to make magic and music separate?
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/12/11(Tue)21:34 No.15560864
    So here's my idea for a battle song:

    Symphony of Courage
    The melody of the song lights on fire the soul of the listeners and fills their being with resolve.
    Double Action
    Level 1: Allies within 10 squares of the musician gain +1k0 to attack, defense, and spell rolls.
    Level 2: Allies gain +0k1 to attack, defense, and spell rolls.
    Level 3: Allies gain a single extra action usable in the duration of the song.

    There's not any precedent for a duration of a song based buff, so maybe duration based on successes.
    Difficulty 4, 1 round per success.
    If I remember, we had thought about making the different levels of effect based on the user's Instrument skill.

    >>15560854 I believe we are indeed making music and magic separate systems.
    >> Anonymous 07/12/11(Tue)21:35 No.15560875
         File1310520958.jpg-(734 KB, 1200x2000, twili.jpg)
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    Work in progress on an armored Twili warrior.

    Armor is hard :(
    >> Anonymous 07/12/11(Tue)21:47 No.15560960
    I really don't think we should have any songs that are specifically designed for combat and only combat. Songs should be utility/plot-focused first, with combat applications as a side bonus. Music in LoZ =/= D&D bards.
    >> Dekufag 07/12/11(Tue)21:55 No.15561016

    This. I mean of course some songs would have functionality in combat but I mean yeah. No bards.
    >> The_Scientist !!heRPel6KTW6 07/12/11(Tue)21:57 No.15561026
    It's Zelda in a campaign setting? With actual rules?
    >> Anonymous 07/12/11(Tue)21:59 No.15561049
    Pretty much. More specifically, it's a system we're designing specifically to capture the overall feel and tone of the Legend of Zelda video games, as opposed to stuff that's been done like the Zelda d20 rules that just try to shoehorn LoZ elements into a system meant for something quite different.
    >> Anonymous 07/12/11(Tue)21:59 No.15561050

    Yup. Races, monsters, items, spells, all pulled from the games. Still in progress.
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/12/11(Tue)21:59 No.15561051
    Just trying to get the ball rolling, nobody's really messed with music and explored where it could go in a way that everyone agreed with. I just want to make Music useful in combat like all the other skills.
    >> Anonymous 07/12/11(Tue)22:00 No.15561061
    It just occurs to me, Link didn't have the Master Sword yet when he fought that boss, he was still using his Ordon Sword.
    >> Dekufag 07/12/11(Tue)22:02 No.15561089
    Would every player be automatic musicians
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/12/11(Tue)22:04 No.15561107
    Only if you put a point in Instrument. That and I believe songs are treated as items, so you may only start with a single song.
    >> Dekufag 07/12/11(Tue)22:06 No.15561126
    Alright alright. So putting a point in instrument would give each race its instrument.

    Would each race have a specific instrument
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/12/11(Tue)22:07 No.15561134
    Nope, you pick.
    >> Anonymous 07/12/11(Tue)22:07 No.15561137
    Music can still have some combat applications, it just shouldn't be the primary focus. For example, some songs might have combat applications related to their primary noncombat focus (eg, using the Sun Song to paralyze Redeads), and certain enemies (like Pol's Voices and Digdogger) are vulnerable to music in general.
    But not every skill needs to be equally suited to combat; |sway| has even less combat application than music, after all, and I don't think anyone thinks that's a bad thing.
    >> Dekufag 07/12/11(Tue)22:07 No.15561142
    Using all canon songs?
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/12/11(Tue)22:09 No.15561156
    Sway can help you avoid or start a fight. :P

    Only a few select ones like the Sun's Song and Wind's Requiem.
    >> Anonymous 07/12/11(Tue)22:10 No.15561163
    >That and I believe songs are treated as items, so you may only start with a single song.

    Well, you could start with up to three songs (assuming there are even three songs available as starting picks in the final version), but for every song you take you have to give up some other useful piece of starting gear. I'm pretty sure we're still planning on giving people 3 starting items, right?
    >> Anonymous 07/12/11(Tue)22:12 No.15561176

    Well, presumably we could come up with ways to apply every canon song in this system, but it'd be a lot of work and perhaps not quite worth it.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 07/12/11(Tue)22:13 No.15561193
    Songs behave differently than spells. While each spell has only one effect, many songs have multiple levels of effects. These levels determine the level of Music skill required to use the effect, as well as how often the effects can be used.

    Levels 1, 2 and 3 can be used as often as desired. (Rider's (Epona's) Song is level 1, Wind's Requiem is level 2 and the Command Melody is level 3, for examples of strength.)
    Level 4 effects can be used only twice a day. (the light attack of the Sun's Song, all Warp songs, the healing portion of the Song of Healing.)
    Level 5 effects can only be used once a day. (Speeding up or slowing with the Song of Time.)
    Level 6 songs only work under very specific circumstances. (campaign-ending effects like Oath to Order, Ballad of the Wind Fish)

    Songs are more environmental or spiritual than Magic spells. Instead of blasting enemies with a fireball, a music attack might wash enemies away with the tide, summon cyclones or cause them to stop what they're doing and dance.

    Song of Embers
    Wood and flame heed your song.
    Double Action
    Level 2: One Burning object or creature within 10 spaces of you now burns half as fast/ takes half as much damage from the Burning.
    Level 3: Choose a source of fire within 10 spaces of you. Make a Music attack against each enemy adjacent to the fire source, dealing 1/4H (torch), 1/2H (campfire, brazier) or 3/4H (bonfire) of fire damage per success.
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/12/11(Tue)22:13 No.15561201
    >>15561163 I'm pretty sure we're still planning on giving people 3 starting items, right?
    I think that's correct, yes. I know that we are having spells available as starting equip, but if you select an instrument, it comes with 1 song.
    >> Anonymous 07/12/11(Tue)22:18 No.15561249
    >I know that we are having spells available as starting equip, but if you select an instrument, it comes with 1 song.

    Personally, I like to think of it the other way around -- your first song comes with a free instrument.

    But that's just semantics.
    >> Dekufag 07/12/11(Tue)22:37 No.15561400
    imo Instrument comes with song, just cause.

    All instruments start with same song or would Deku Pipes start with like Sonata of Awakening? (Prevents allies from sleep, raises hidden doors/temples/etc etc)
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/12/11(Tue)22:40 No.15561431
    Probably choose from a list of starter songs.
    >> Anonymous 07/12/11(Tue)22:41 No.15561444
    You pick an instrument fitting for your character, and you pick any song you like from the available starting list (also something we need to work on, btw -- which gear, spells, and songs should be available as starting equipment).
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 07/12/11(Tue)22:43 No.15561463
    Starter songs would be very simple things, like Saria's Song or whatnot. The really potent magic would be handed out by GMs.

    I'll try and flesh out some more in a bit. Still trying to think of drawing ideas, though.
    >> Dekufag 07/12/11(Tue)22:45 No.15561475

    Draw Deku stuff ;)
    >> Cz 07/12/11(Tue)23:01 No.15561627
    Hey guys heres a song idea comin' at cha'

    Tango of Tongues
    Language is no longer a hindrance be it man or beast. This song opens your hears and mind to understand other creature's language.
    Double Action
    Level 3: You can comprehend a sentence spoken from the target.
    Level 4: You can understand the target for one hour.
    Level 5: You can understand the target and be able to speak their language for one day.
    >> Anonymous 07/12/11(Tue)23:04 No.15561648
    This can probably be significantly less rank-restrictive, I think. I'd think probably something like 1/3/4 should be fine for that effect.
    >> Cz 07/12/11(Tue)23:06 No.15561665

    Sounds good to me.

    >Came up with this song idea while listening to We No Speak Americano.
    >> The Scientist !!heRPel6KTW6 07/12/11(Tue)23:10 No.15561705
         File1310526654.png-(16 KB, 500x500, Korok Master Race.png)
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    >Korok is a playable race.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 07/12/11(Tue)23:18 No.15561786
    Awesome. I can see this being used in a Wind Waker game to understand ancient Hylian.
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/12/11(Tue)23:22 No.15561820
    D: I was just thinking about a song almost identical to this one. You beat me to the punch. Mine was based on levels determining the type of creatures you could communicate with. I couldn't come up with a good name like yours though. But, I did come up with another song.

    Harmony of Peace
    The song dispels all feelings of fear and anger, allowing a calm and thoughtful resolution.
    Level 2: The song protects the musician and his allies within 10 squares against fear effects.
    Level 4: The song is able to calm the anger and fear of an enemy, causing him to stop attacking the musician and his allies.

    Of course this won't stop anyone whose motive for attacking you doesn't involve fear or anger.
    >> Anonymous 07/12/11(Tue)23:25 No.15561868
    Which reminds me, What about books, tomes, scrolls, things of that nature.
    For example, the Book of Mudora from A Link to the Past, or the Tiger Scrolls from Minish Cap. Do those need set abilities, like translating runes and temporary abilities as a part of the important item list; or will those be up to GM discretion?
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/12/11(Tue)23:36 No.15561971
    Level 3: The song dispels fear and anger in any creature within 10 squares who is not in combat.

    We haven't really discussed much of that yet, so I don't know.
    >> Anonymous 07/12/11(Tue)23:40 No.15562011
    Look's like I finally found a way to help. I'll pull a list of notable items and see what I can do

    Unfortunately, I have very little experience homebrewing settings, so they may need some polishing touches
    >> Anonymous 07/12/11(Tue)23:40 No.15562014
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    Linework's finished, on to coloring!
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 07/12/11(Tue)23:42 No.15562024
    Well, the Book of Mudora let you read ancient Hylian, so that could have a similar effect to the Tangi, but for written language, unless the Tango is expanded to include writing.

    On the subject if Tiger Scrolls, they could be used as either an in-game explanation for learning new Techniques, or they could be free Technique rewards given by the GM.

    What other fun effects can we do with songs?
    >> Anonymous 07/12/11(Tue)23:57 No.15562177

    Not the guy volunteering to stat up a bunch of items, but yea I was noticing a lot of the items and whatnot from the games could easily be spells/music AND items.

    So the Fire Rod would just be a magical item that casts Fireball or whatever, giving non-magic specializing characters a chance to get their hands on a spell somehow for utility or mixed offense without having to rely on another player.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)00:02 No.15562231
    this is fucking awesome. can't wait to see it colored
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)00:03 No.15562246
    In OoT, Zelda's Lullaby was used to trigger story based events and dungeon triggers...including water levels...

    and Saria's Song was used for (limited) communication between people who knew the song.
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/13/11(Wed)00:05 No.15562261
    What we are doing with magic items like the fire rod and magic cape and such is to treat them exactly the same as if you had learned the spell. Or rather, the other way around (treat learned spells exactly as if you had acquired the item). There would be no functional difference in acquiring the Fire Rod or learning "Fire". You must have the required knowledge in magic, not just anyone can pick it up and use it.
    >> The Scientist !!heRPel6KTW6 07/13/11(Wed)00:08 No.15562288
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    Disharmonious of Rhapsody
    The song causes feelings of confusion and anger, causing disastrous infighting

    Level 2: The song projects from the musician and his past his allies within 10 squares causing rage (possibly making it hard for magic mobs to concentrate on casting).

    Level 4: The song is able to multiply the anger and confusion of an enemy, causing him to attack his allies.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 07/13/11(Wed)00:12 No.15562329
    Holy crap. I really need to get my computer back, all my drawings look awful in comparison to this done-up digital stuff.

    Yep. It's even similar in that you "wield" a spell in your hand like an item, even if it's a non-item spell. That way non-item casters don't have an advantage over someone using a spell from a medallion or rod. It's a flavor thing more than anything.

    Fun fact: the Sage medallions in Ocarina of Tome were originally going to be tied to spells like the medallions in Link to the Past, but were cut due to time constraints.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 07/13/11(Wed)00:15 No.15562366
    Oops, Time, not Tome.

    Oh my god.
    This is the greatest thing.

    >ounceFor Sengor
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)00:17 No.15562392
    I love you.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)00:25 No.15562472
    What about situational songs?

    I mean songs with an apparently useless effect, but could be used with other variables in the right time for a great result.

    Like the Wind's Requiem song, that lets you change the direction of the wind.
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/13/11(Wed)00:27 No.15562501
    We already have the Wind's Requiem on the wiki, but other situational songs like that would probably be campaign specific; the GM would have to create it.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)00:30 No.15562545
    >Fun fact: the Sage medallions in Ocarina of Tome were originally going to be tied to spells like the medallions in Link to the Past, but were cut due to time constraints.
    That makes a lot more sense now.

    Also, items to consider adding
    >Magic Powder - Key item?, Fun effects, weakness of some enemies.

    >Pegasus Boots - double land speed, dash attack, penalty to agility based checks (can't turn, hard to stop)

    >Cane of Pacci - Extra damage against soft-bellied opponents for a few rounds, perhaps using holes as elevators, environmental effects

    >Magic Rings (each with a minor ability, maybe a few major or quest related.)

    >Roc's cape/Mole Mits/Zora Flippers (stuff to emulate racial bonuses, although not as good as having the trait naturally.)

    >Power gauntlet {or ring, or bracelet} - bonus to grapple and lift/move heavy item, as though 1 size category larger

    I'll keep looking for anything useful to add
    >> Dekufag 07/13/11(Wed)00:36 No.15562623
    All I know is my first character is going to be a Deku with a weaponized Double Clawshot. Hells yes.
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/13/11(Wed)00:39 No.15562659
    Haha I can imagine all the fun that could be had with magic powder. I think we've already got some rules for most of those on the wiki or in previous threads.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/13/11(Wed)00:42 No.15562685
    IT HAS BEGUN: Just finished running the first session of my playtest campaign. Went well overall. A few things that came up were as follows:

    1. We like how mobs drop stuff when killed, but the system for dropping items needs an overhaul. Will post suggestion later, probably something similar to the random loot tables in the D&D 4E Essentials DMG (the best thing to come out of essentials).

    2. Allowing two attacks per round really slows things down when more than like 2 enemies attacking at once. Other than slowness, though, it seemed to be balanced alright with our heavy-weapon user.

    3. Falling damage came up. We don't have that yet.

    4. Improvised weaponry, or using a ranged weapon to bash somebody with. It's a ballista-sized crossbow, so I treated it like a greatclub heavy weapon and he rolled without skill ranks (which he didn't have anyway). The giant crossbow is custom made for the character concept. Ranged(Power), Range 20, 1H damage, takes an action to reload. It's Power because loading it and just holding it steady to fire are totally Power-based.

    5. Tracking enemy health and conditions, such as from the Ice spell. This one was kind of a bear. I was lucky and most enemies died the first turn they were attacked (they were bokoblins) or avoided all damage.
    5a: With the Ice spell, I used the more recent suggestion of stacking slows with successes until reaching 0 speed, at which point the target was frozen in a block of ice and had to spend an action escaping.

    We didn't have anybody with any techniques that got used, so how those function is yet to be seen. I may inflate xp awards to get this group along faster to test more quickly.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)00:46 No.15562733

    >falling damage

    All I can think of right off the bat is that Koroks and Rito should effectively be immune since their flight ability is just a controlled fall.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/13/11(Wed)00:47 No.15562742
    6. Also, quest rewards. A rough guideline system should be created. I had my group fight one battle with bokoblins, then a boss guy I totally ad hoc'd, rescued a sage in the mountains (not legendary sage, just knowledgeable guy), and they got a piece of heart and a magic item I've yet to determine. Waiting on the board to define a few more.

    7. Scavenging. We need a system for finding rupees, bombs, ammo, and randomly a fairy in grass, rocks, pots, etc. I was figuring once per day make a Perception roll, and you find stuff based on a table and a number of items based on your successes.

    8. Assisting. We currently have no assist mechanic worked in, and could probably use a basic one.
    >> Dekufag 07/13/11(Wed)00:48 No.15562753

    This still hasn't been put on the Wiki but Deku can fly too...
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)00:49 No.15562764
    With a boost from a deku flower usually
    >> Dekufag 07/13/11(Wed)00:52 No.15562802

    We discussed about two threads ago Deku having the ability to grow Deku Flowers/Deku becoming botanical engineers to further separate the line between Korok and Deku
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)00:56 No.15562855
    Did you use a map or dungeon for the playtest? If so, can we see it?
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/13/11(Wed)01:06 No.15562949
    Nope, just a trek through the mountains for now. Next session will be a forest, after that some plains with armies blocking travel, then maybe a desert briefly, and then finally a right proper dungeon.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)01:06 No.15562959

    >Gust Jar/Whirlwind - Knockback on large enemies, clears fog, direct hovering allies

    If the GM decides to run a campaign where "Only X race is allowed here", the Brother Emblem, or similar items, could be useful, also could help in Diplomacy checks against that race
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/13/11(Wed)01:07 No.15562966
    That seems... a bit unnecessary at this point, but not without worth.
    >> Dekufag 07/13/11(Wed)01:13 No.15563030
    I'm just pretty butthurt, I don't really see how two tiny plant people are necessary but hey, that's just me; apparently everyone else loves them. Korok's and Kokri--can they be in the same game?
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)01:27 No.15563186
    Technically Koroks have more right to be "botanical engineers", since they're planting trees all the time, but let's not open that can of moldorms again.

    Oh god did I just say that
    >> Dekufag 07/13/11(Wed)01:28 No.15563194
    Deku have been plantin' stuff and living in flowers since before Korok's existed :p
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)01:29 No.15563213
    It should be pretty obvious that the core races are just the races that have stood out the most throughout the source material and that their inclusion as a core race does not in any way imply that they must be playable in a campaign. It's always up to the GM to decide what races to allow based upon which of the games settings he chooses for his campaign.
    If the game is based on the world of WW then Kokiri and Zora will probably not be allowed (although there was at least one Kokiri in WW so their may be some wiggle-room there) and I don't remember Deku being in WW, but it has been for-fucking-ever since I played it.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/13/11(Wed)01:30 No.15563218
    They can if you change the lore a bit. Pretty much you just have to say, "One didn't come from the other. They are different kinds of forest folks. There are lots." That's how I'll probably work it for my games. Similar logic with Zora and Rito, especially since that change doesn't make any damn sense anyway.

    But yeah, there will probably be a lot more work put into making each race unique with special techniques and equipment and all kinds of stuff, but most of that will come after we get the basic system in right working order. Koroks and Dekus just happened to make it into the Alpha level we're in.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)01:51 No.15563456
    Which random drop table were you using? There were at least two competing versions.

    Falling damage could be 1/2H damage per space after 4 spaces of falling. It could be opposed by an Acrobatics/Defense check similar to how bombs are handled.

    improvised weapons could fall under Power, 1/4H for one handed weapons and 1/2H for two handed.

    You could record damage like any other game, on a sheet of notebook paper, counting up (or down) the damage taken. We could also make 4E-style monster cards, with hearts to fill in like players have. (speaking of, did they use the character sheets, and how did they like them?
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)01:55 No.15563488
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    Yes. Yes they can.

    You should be looking at the idea of two separate wood races getting some synergy on instead of... whatever this is you're doing.

    Besides, there's certain way you could differentiate the two; Deku's could get a ranged attack, Korok could get longer flight time since they weigh nearly nothing. heck; you could have the two both grow plants but- they both grow different kinds of plants separate from one another.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)01:58 No.15563516
    >speaking of, did they use the character sheets, and how did they like them?
    I'm still working on the high-res version. I was hoping to get it done before he started play testing, but I've been busy/lazy lately
    >> Temprary Combat Namefag 07/13/11(Wed)01:58 No.15563519
    Forgot my name again.

    This does need working out, and it might require careful study of the Zelda "formula" of overworld and underworld questing.

    This could use the random drop table as well, in addition to letting GM's stock specific pots themselves (bombs in a bomb-puzzle room, faries right before a boss.)

    As a Single Action, you can roll a check for your ally, and the ally adds half of your successes to their check. (needs work.)
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)02:03 No.15563559

    Been following this project for a while. Love it, good work to all!

    Gonna be up all night, figured I can do some drawfagging. Need guidance though... anything y'all need in particular?
    >> Temprary Combat Namefag 07/13/11(Wed)02:05 No.15563583
    It would be easy to refluff Rito and Koroks to fit into a game outside of the Great Sea.

    The Rito are a tribe of bird people who live in the cliffs - possible sharing Death Mountain with the Gorons, or in the Gerudo Valley, or a new landmark of your own devising. Valoo doesn't have any real connections to the sea, so he could be included without a hassle as well.

    The Koroks are a fey race, similar to the Kokiri and Minish but not necessarily directly related to them. They propagate and protect the forest, and are closely associated with the Great Deku Tree (possibly as servants instead of his helpless children, if the Kokiri fill that role.)
    >> Temprary Combat Namefag 07/13/11(Wed)02:10 No.15563622
    If you're good at drawing fur, try a wolfos, or goyira (the mustachioed boomerang throated from the original Zelda.)

    For scenes, we can always use more humorous or social pictures. A party hanging out around a campfire, a Gerudo/Hylian "date" (kidnapping), people ON A BOAT, festivals, whatever.

    Or you can tell us what you're good at and that might influence the suggestions.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)02:17 No.15563687
    Rito I can see working.

    But koroks not at all. Korok are canonically the kokiri given different form to suit their environment. The kokiri don't age and don't die, so when the world was flooded, their shape was changed to more effectively move about the land.

    The only reflavoring I can see working would be the koroks being kokiri from more watery forest areas while the regular kokiri are from more inland forest areas.

    Or if you want to tie them together with dekus, you could say that a korok is what becomes of a kokiri who gets lost in the lost woods and lives with the Deku Scrubs for a long period of time. They simply adapted to their new lifestyle.

    Hell, maybe we could even give kokiri the power to change back and forth between korok form. That might solve a lot of problems.
    >> Woodfag 07/13/11(Wed)02:20 No.15563721

    Synergy of the tiny plant people? Wouldn't that make it so non-plant groups would be "gimped"
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)02:24 No.15563757
    Its called "refluffing" for a reason. It's not required, but it's an option for people who want to work both races into the same game. If you can't bring yourself to deviate from the canon, then disregard it.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)02:24 No.15563760
    Expanding on this a bit,

    Kokiri and Korok would be a single race. By taking their fairy inside of them, they can transform into a korok. They'd gain all the properties of the korok race when they do.

    And on DM discretion, this ability could be disallowed so that you're forced to choose either kokiri or korok, if you have a game set in a setting where you don't want one of them existing or something.

    And regarding the whole korok/deku overlap, korok could have most of the same powers as the deku, just not quite as good, because they can also be Kokiri.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)02:36 No.15563853

    Mostly good at people-shaped things in dynamic poses.

    Been trying some wolfos. Kinda working, kinda not. Will try some scenes next.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 07/13/11(Wed)02:38 No.15563877
    Let's save the theories and debates until we have a finished game to use them in, particularly the ones that propose new game mechanics.

    On the subject of "synergies", some techniques just work well for both Dekus and Koroks (like a tech called Playing With Fire that lets them do a little extra damage with fire magic.) But I can see a few techs working for Koroks and Kokiri as well (like some stealth tech related to their fey nature.)
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/13/11(Wed)03:24 No.15564282
    We used the one posted on the wiki. Pretty much everything was what was on the wiki and GM resources section, with the exception of the Ice spell.

    That's... I'm not sure I like these ideas. Koroks and Dekus (at least currently) don't have any powers or techniques that are the same, nor should they. They are already different, and should stay that way, with more built on later to make each race unique.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)03:31 No.15564326
    Just throwing out some ideas. Please be gentle.

    Melody of Remembrance
    Gain total recall of potentially any event.

    Double Action
    Level 1: Whenever you play this song, the moment is 'marked' in the minds of whoever hears it. If you play it again later, everyone who heard it before will recall in perfect detail what was happening when the song first played. A new memory may be 'marked', replacing the old one.
    Level 3: Any memory may be remembered if the listener is willing, whether this song was played during it or not, but not necessarily in great detail.
    Level 4: A listener can be made to remember anything they're asked to, including painful or repressed memories.

    Locksmith's Ditty
    Open locks with the right notes at the right frequency.

    Double Action
    Level 2: Undo simple door-handle locks.
    Level 3: Unlock more complex locks, or locks on other things such as chests.
    Level 5: Activate special mechanisms that operate doors, such as entrances to secret passages.
    Level 6: Open certain magical seals, as determined by the GM.

    Ballad of Distant Echoes
    Play songs from a distance.

    Double Action
    Level 1: Throw the sound of this song like a ventriloquist throws his voice, up to 10 spaces, plus the result of your Music check, away.
    Level 3: Chain another song to the end of this one, playing it immediately after this song is done, but projecting it to the same distance as though you were playing it from there.
    Level 5: Play another song after this one, and project it and its effects to any location you've been to before, and know the precise location of.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)03:33 No.15564353
    >Throw the sound of this song like a ventriloquist throws his voice, up to 10 spaces, plus the result of your Music check, away.
    um... wat? why?
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)03:36 No.15564375
    Distraction, mostly. I dunno.
    >> Sir Scribe 07/13/11(Wed)04:51 No.15564884
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    Pic related to show that I haven't just been slacking off. Base coat of colors is done, and I'm today is a day for values, shading, and fine detail. wat think, nameless anon who requested the mask maker?

    Also, since it appears we have new thread participants, Ill go ahead and dump the drawfaggotry I've done so far for this RPG if y'all so wish..
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/13/11(Wed)08:27 No.15566122
    We decided there would be no way to bypass locks in the system. The finding and hoarding of keys is a pretty pervasive theme, and we wanted to keep it.

    I'm not sure the others fit very well, either, but they definitely demonstrate a way of thinking about it that I like. I just sort of question the usefulness, really.

    MAGIC/SONGS/ITEMS: Are what I think we want to stay focused on, just to remind folks or inform those just joining us.

    And for those just joining us and wanting to ask questions or contribute, please at least read the wiki. Please? Thanks. Let's keep it rolling right along.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)08:49 No.15566216
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    It seems to me that the technique is mostly useful if you're a rather... squishy musician. It would let you use those AoE songs from a distance, or the Song of Embers from a distance etc.
    For instance: say a song has a range of... a circle, with a radius of 5 squares.
    With the Ballad of Distant Echoes, that means that the epicentre of the radius can be 10 squares away.

    Since Hearts are directly dependant on Physical, and a dedicated musician would have higher focus on Spiritual, squishyness is rather expected.
    Unless you make Pic Related. Then you probably start with 3P/1W/3C and 3P/1M/3S.
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/13/11(Wed)10:23 No.15566629
    Another spell idea:

    Dispel (Wisdom)
    Rank 3
    Single action
    3 MP
    Duration: Instantaneous
    Range: 10
    Target: Single creature or spell effect
    Check: Opposed by |Magic|(P/C/W) or Unopposed - N(N), see description
    Any spell that has a duration greater than instantaneous can be ended prematurely. If the spell is sustained, the roll is opposed by the caster's Magic check, using the same Virtue as the sustained spell. If you have more successes than the opposed caster, the sustained spell ends immediately. If the spell is not sustained, roll against difficulty of the spell's rank. Each success takes 1 round off the spell's duration. You may only target a single spell effect at a time.

    I thought about having difficulty 4 on non-sustained spells, but then I got the idea to make the rank the difficulty. I like that one better. Also, I don't know what category this spell fits into. Defense? Healing? both or something else?
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)10:26 No.15566649
    Ooooh, very nice. The mask maker seems a bit pale, but other than that, it's pretty awesome. The clock face was a nice touch, and I shat bricks when I spotted a certain familiar face in the background...
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)10:30 No.15566673
    >Fire Magic

    Uh...better bring a fairy or dozen. Like the idea, actually.
    >> Cz 07/13/11(Wed)12:10 No.15567306
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    Do you mean like this?
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 07/13/11(Wed)14:38 No.15568515

    Ok, let me make this official:

    Playing With Fire
    Prerequisites: Deku or Korok
    XP Cost: 6
    Passive Technique
    You deal an extra 1/4H of fire damage per success when using Fire attacks.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)15:07 No.15568703
    Why not bump it up to half a heart and have the extra damage also apply to self-injuries with said magic?
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)15:12 No.15568733
    I don't think we have anything that gives self-injuries.
    I'm not too sure that we should, either.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)15:38 No.15568876
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    Deku Warrior Level -1.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 07/13/11(Wed)15:55 No.15568993
    Zelda's Lullaby
    >Passed down and carefully guarded through generations, this song signifies the musician's connection to Hyrule's Royal Family.
    Double Action
    Level 1: When this song is played to certain people or while standing on certain crests, something good might happen.

    Stone Beat
    >Your rhythm shakes the earth.
    Double Action
    Level 3: Make a Music Area attack against each enemy within 10 spaces. If an enemy fails their Defense check, they are knocked prone.
    Special: This song may have strange effects when played near certain features of the environment.

    Zeffa's Song
    >This tune summons a flock of friendly birds to swiftly take you away.
    Double Action
    Level 4: (Overworld) One round after playing this song, a bird appears for each member of your party and picks you up. The birds will drop you off at a certain Warp point in the world of your choosing.
    Special: If you are in combat, the bird will not come.
    (Combine with Song of Birds?)

    >Area attacks
    >When a spell, technique, song or item asks you to make an Area attack, roll an unopposed skill check for the attack with a Success Threshold of 3. (or 4? Or vary by the attack?)
    >The number of successes you make determines the difficulty of the Defense check the enemy must make. If the enemy fails the check, they suffer the consequences. 
    >If your area attack had a damage increment, they take one increment of damage for every one of your successes they did not meet.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)16:22 No.15569261
    Shit, I am so excited to play this man, you have no idea.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)16:35 No.15569395
    ...Hey, why not make Zelda's Lullaby make enemies/everyone-in-AoE sleepy?
    It IS a lullaby.

    >Logic cyoult
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/13/11(Wed)16:38 No.15569428
    Better not use Stone Beat indoors, might collapse the place you're in. Do you get bonuses if you're playing the drums?
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)16:39 No.15569437
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    Also, Zeffa's Song should have some application in combat. Just saying.
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/13/11(Wed)16:45 No.15569489
    "This song is for the bir-"

    But seriously, I agree with this.
    Level 5: Summons a swarm of cuccos to fight your enemies. Roll your Instrument check versus difficulty 4. 2 cuccos appear for every success.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)16:45 No.15569492
    The bird picks you up next turn and you can fly to any space within 20 spaces, or something like that.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 07/13/11(Wed)16:47 No.15569512
    It's more of a badge of authority than a sleeping song.

    It shouldn't be restricted to drums, but it could definitely be taught with drums (possibly by Gorons)

    That might fall under the Song of Birds, which you can use to get cuccos to follow you around and-

    My god.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 07/13/11(Wed)17:17 No.15569841
    Actually, I've never played Spirit Tracks, so I don't know exactly what each of the songs from that game do. If it let's you warp, then it should be merged with Zeffa's song (which is combined from LTTP's and Minish Cap's ocarina songs.) If not, they should be separate, with the Song of Birds including bird-control things (maybe an effect similar to the pears in WW?)
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)17:25 No.15569919
    I'm begging someone to run a test campain, I realllly wanna play this.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)18:16 No.15570398
    Are there any rules for cannons, or any other steampunk/Schizo Tech things?
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/13/11(Wed)18:22 No.15570466
    Hm, the utility of this seems like a good option for a Courage spell, actually. Should probably stipulate that for permanent effects it suppresses the effect for a number of rounds equal to your successes, but certain magical effects might not be subject to simple dispelling at the GM's discretion.

    That reminds me, did we want to have a special term for the person running the game? Some Zelda-themed title? Dunno if we could make it not lame, though, heh.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)18:33 No.15570558
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    Phew! Done.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)18:44 No.15570674
    The quality of the drawfaggotry for this project never ceases to amaze me. Keep up the good work, everyone!

    Since I can't draw for shit, I'll keep working on getting these spells finalized...
    To start with, I want to make sure everyone's ok with the updates to Ice and Faultline that I put up on the wiki yesterday. I've seen some pretty crazy stuff get slipped in there under everyone's noses, and I wanna make sure I'm not being that guy...

    Ice (Power)
    Attack (Ice)
    Rank 1
    Single action
    2 MP
    Duration: Instantaneous
    Range: 20
    Target: Single creature or object
    Check: Opposed by defense
    A beam of icy cold sails through the air.
    Roll a |Magic|(Power) attack with a damage increment of 1/4h (Ice). This damage is unaffected by armor, but is affected by magical damage reduction. Additionally, the target's speed is reduced by 1 for each success you score until the beginning of your next turn. If this would reduce the target's speed to less than half its base value, it is Frozen for 1 round.

    >Frozen: A Frozen creature is encased in ice, rendering it immobile and making it brittle. It can't take move or take any actions requiring movement. It gains 1/2 heart of damage reduction against Piercing and Edged damage, but takes 1 heart of extra damage from Crushing and Fire-based attacks.

    Mainly it's the Frozen status I'm concerned about, and how you get to it from the Ice spell.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)18:45 No.15570684
    Faultline (Power)
    Weakening (Earth)
    Rank 3
    6 MP
    Duration: See text
    Range: 10
    Area: 3x3 square
    Check: Unopposed - N(3) (see text)
    With a deafening bellow, the earth collapses in on itself, trapping nearby creatures under a hail of debris.
    The affected area becomes dense rubble, reducing ground movement across it by half (moving into an affected space counts as moving twice the distance). This effect is instantaneous. Additionally, roll an unopposed |Magic|(Power) check against a success threshold of 3. Each non-flying creature in the affected area rolls Mental Courage against a success threshold of 3, and subtracts the number of successes they scored from the number of of successes you scored. If the result is greater than 0, the creature is Dazed for half that many rounds (rounded down).
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 07/13/11(Wed)18:56 No.15570793
    In LTTP, the bosses were called Dungeon Masters, so maybe that would be an appropriate term. It doesn't matter to me, but if someone can come up with a fun title, we can use it.

    Jeez. I know I ask everyone this, but do you have an online gallery?

    Is there a way to simplify this? Possibly using the area effect mechanic? I don't think there's anything wrong with the spell's strength, it just seems a little complex.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)18:59 No.15570827

    Mmmnope, not since the last time you asked me. I'm the same dude as the one who did the Deku mage and the Goron battle musician.

    Anyways, will end up doing a Kokiri next, no idea what sort of class/character type s/he will be, but for now I'm going to try and finish OoT3DS.
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/13/11(Wed)19:08 No.15570912
    First, I wanted to thank you personally for taking the time to go through the threads and update the wiki. I know it's a lot of work.

    Ice looks alright. Should there be a qualifier on fire and ice that there must be line of sight for the spell to work? Or is that implied with every spell?
    >Mainly it's the Frozen status I'm concerned about, and how you get to it from the Ice spell.
    I'm not really sure what you mean. It's an ice spell, why wouldn't it freeze you? It looks fine to me.

    On Faultline, I notice that it says that the effect is instantaneous, and that if the spell succeeds, then the creature is dazed. Is that 1 or 2 actions lost per round? (I've seen both definitions in here and I don't think we've officially labeled them yet.) Is the area a permanent hazard then? If other creatures enter the area, do they have to roll against the effect too? Does the caster reroll his Magic or keep the last one?
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)19:11 No.15570939
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    A Korok party.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)19:31 No.15571085
    Hey guys,I think we sould stat the main charaters,like link, zelda, skull kid, and gannon.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)19:36 No.15571109
    ...Yeah, Link/Zelda/Ganon (not Gannon) are slightly out of the characters league.
    Or at least I think they are, being blessed by the gods and such. (Ganondorf would have Power 6, at least, while Ganon would have a whopping 2 higher.)

    Skull Kid is weak-ish, though.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)19:37 No.15571126
    wtf is this. Make them all Sudowoodoo
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)19:38 No.15571134
    Yeah, they would be OP sure, but we should stat them anyways, they might be useful.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)19:38 No.15571137
    >area effect mechanic
    Ah, you mean this up here? >>15568993

    I like the concept, it seems like it has a lot of potential, but it definitely needs some refinement. Cleaning up the wording a bit, this is what I'm getting from it:

    Group opposed check: A group opposed check is a special kind of check used to handle effects, such as area-effect spells and attacks, that are created by a single character and opposed individually by multiple targets.
    The attacker first rolls an unopposed check defined by the effect's description. Each defender then rolls an unopposed check with a success threshold equal to the number of successes scored by the attacker's check. Each defender then suffers effects as prescribed by the effect based on the result of his or her individual check.

    Assuming this is what you're getting at in the first place, there are a couple issues that stick out to me:
    First and foremost, it would be possible (though not likely, assuming the success threshold for the attacker is set properly) to get more than 6 successes on the attacker's roll, making it impossible to defend against (you can't roll higher than 6 on a d6, after all). Should this simply be allowed as a perk for those who work hard to excel in their field, or should we prevent it? You would need to max out the skill and have full starting ranks in both the Virtue and Attribute to even have a chance at it, and assuming a success threshold of 4 you won't have any reasonable likelihood of pulling it off unless you bought an Attribute point or two...and even still, the absolute maximum probability of pulling off an unbeatable area attack is only 8.98% for a completely maxed skill and Attribute.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)19:39 No.15571148
    Also, while it works pretty well for pass/fail stuff, it needs some expansion to be able to properly handle scaling effects like attacks. If it's purely based on the number of failed dice in the opponent's check, then a low number of kept dice to oppose is best, because it limits the number of potential failures. However, this is easily remedied by having effects of this type compare your kept die count to the defenders', and count an automatic failure for each kept die you have over the defender (and conversely, negate a failure for each kept die the defender has over you).
    >> GM numero 555 07/13/11(Wed)19:40 No.15571150
    Our group has actually been keeping a track of this forum and having play testing sessions along with making suptle changes to the wiki.

    Our assist mechanic is that the assisting player makes an unoppossed check (difficulty set by GM). The number of success he gets are added to the assistee's pool. Eg the assisting player gets 2 successes so the other players pool changes from 3k2 to 4k3.

    We are on our 3rd session of this and are thouroughly enjoying it. We don't find the combat slow at all and we will be helping as much as we can to further this project :D
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)19:42 No.15571175
    Well they would be strong, but not THAT out of the pcs league.
    At least if they were pretty high level, and all teamed up on him.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)19:49 No.15571222
    >Should there be a qualifier on fire and ice that there must be line of sight for the spell to work? Or is that implied with every spell?
    I think that would be an implied factor for any spell, yes. Probably should add that to the general magic rules on the wiki.

    >I'm not really sure what you mean. It's an ice spell, why wouldn't it freeze you? It looks fine to me.
    Mostly I'm interested in feedback on the specifics of the Frozen condition, and the particulars of how you get there from the Ice spell (the whole "if-speed-is-reduced-to-half" bit).

    >On Faultline
    The idea was that the difficult terrain is formed instantaneously, and thus stays that way permanently. The infliction of the dazing effect is also part of the instantaneous portion (only those in the area when the spell is cast are affected), and the daze lasts for a duration based on the check.
    Also, I went with the dazed = all actions, stun = 1. I think it makes much more sense linguistically, and I don't think anyone would have a problem with it unless they approach it thinking in terms of D&D 4e status effects. Copying the poor linguistic choices of another system just for the sake of making it a little easier for those familiar with that system seems to me like a silly way of doing things, and since I'm the one who went to the trouble of updating the wiki I went ahead and made the executive decision, lol.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)19:55 No.15571279
    I suppose so. The biggest benefit the Triforce gives them is immortality, to be honest.
    They were probably already maxed in their respective Virtue before the Triforce split, seeing as it chose the people who best represented the Virtue.
    But as for skills:
    Link has medium/high in most, 6 Melee/ 6 Shield/ little-to-no Heavy (see:WW)
    Zelda has Sage-level Magic, Music and Stealth. Probably a decent amount of Sway, being royal and all. Decent Melee, awesome Range.
    Ganondorf has high Melee/Heavy/Magic and good Sway(tricked the King in OoT).
    Ganondorf in Beast form (taking OoT/2d games as the example, ignoring TP) has inhuman Heavy, dual-wields swords the size of Link, is IMMORTAL, the most powerful being (wished for power) and near-invincible.
    If you can't hit his tail/shoot Light/Silver Arrows, you're screwed.

    Skull Kid, on the other hand, is a Skull Kid. Good at stealing stuff and Music, but not much else.
    Majora's Mask is a whole other can of worms.

    >But yeah, my opinions on their stats
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)19:55 No.15571280
    I like that assist mechanic. Basically, the first success you get on your assist roll goes to the assistee's rolled pool, then the second to their kept pool, then back to the rolled pool, and so forth, right?

    Also...you say you've been making subtle changes to the wiki? Would your group happen to have been the ones who butchered the defense system?
    When I went in yesterday to post the spells and combat actions, I noticed that somebody'd changed the descriptions under combat so that you were somehow comparing total number of successes in the linear comparison or something like that. Which is totally off, and I was a little irritated.
    >> GM numero 555 07/13/11(Wed)20:02 No.15571354
    Yea you got it there.

    Nope not us, we have been adding not changing. A group member added the idea of the song that changes you into animals and he also added a few skills.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)20:06 No.15571389
    Hey guys,have we made rules for masks that can change you into diffrent races/animals?
    (Ala majoras mask)
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)20:06 No.15571392
    Ah, so I take it that's where |smithing| came from?

    We'd actually had a similar skill in at one point earlier, but decided to drop it because it doesn't really fit the Zelda theme for PCs to be able to craft any old item they need. |Alchemy| was deemed acceptable since it's pretty much only good for cheap consumables that are relatively easy to come by in the first place (bombs and potions and the like), but we decided the crafting of mainline equipment like swords and spears and stuff should be left in the hands of NPCs.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 07/13/11(Wed)20:09 No.15571412

    The attacker's check determines how many successes the target has to make with their Defense roll, not the difficulty of the successes. I assumed the standard difficulty for an unopposed die was a 3 or 4.
    >> GM numero 555 07/13/11(Wed)20:16 No.15571458
    I thought that would be the case. Said member thought he would put it up anyway. The group are really enjoying the game.

    1 member that has never played the legend of zelda games, after the first session, went out and bought half the game series (I laughed a lot).

    Our party consists of a Rito that doesn't want to be a postman, a hylian (myself) that didn't enjoy his guard service so left the city and a Zora that likes to talk with his fists.

    An alright party, the Rito uses Wisdom based magic and is doing well with it. The GM really loves the Zelda series and is really into running the game.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)20:18 No.15571476
    So a successful field test? Excellent!

    Any problems?
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)20:23 No.15571502
    >The attacker's check determines how many successes the target has to make with their Defense roll, not the difficulty of the successes.

    I suppose that resolves the impossibility issue, and helps a little with scaling effects, but now we have a new problem: pass/fail checks are ABSURDLY difficult. And, in many cases, flatly impossible...

    Personally, I think having the attacker's check set success threshold would be easier to fix for the broadest possible variety of check types. Assuming a success threshold of 4 for the attacker, defenders will typically be looking at success thresholds in the 3 to 5 range, which is reasonable for an unopposed check. And the impossible success threshold is such an unlikely fringe case that I question whether it even needs to be addressed at all -- I don't expect buying Attributes will be a very common thing given the cost and the plethora of nifty techniques you could be spending your XP on, and unless you buy one or more Attribute points the best chance you have of creating an impossible check is a measly 0.78%. If it does prove to be a problem, we can just say that the success threshold caps at 6, and maybe give some other benefit (reducing defenders' keep pools, perhaps?) for rolling more than 6 successes.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)20:25 No.15571518
    That's encouraging news!
    I would like to second >>15571476's sentiment -- if you've encountered any snags or flaws in the system, we'd love to hear about them so we can fix them.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)20:25 No.15571521
    Yeah, there's a slightly clunky set in the last thread. It's been archived.
    >> GM numero 555 07/13/11(Wed)20:27 No.15571531
    No not really. One player did however ask if he could knock a Gerudo pirate unconscious. The GM ruled that if he did the Gerudo's physical of hearts with unarmed damage he will allow it.

    Also our rolls for time spent "searching" (cutting grass) was that for every 5 minutes roll on the low threat chart for loot and move up the chart for more time spent. GM put a cap of medium threat

    Also drop rates of hearts need to be increased. Kept getting magic pots for loot drops.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)20:30 No.15571550
    A side-note on the thread.

    How does /tg/ feel about Skyward Sword?


    Music is always relevant
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/13/11(Wed)20:57 No.15571758
    Ah, Ok. For frozen, I thought about maybe buffing the speed detriment to 2 sq per success. Then, if your speed is reduced to 0, you're frozen.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)21:17 No.15571921
    What happened to the simple loot table from before?

    1-2: nothing
    3: Rupees (1/5/10/20 by threat level)
    4: Ammunition
    5: Hearts (1/1/3/3)
    6: Magic Jar (2MP/2MP/6MP/6MP)
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 07/13/11(Wed)21:51 No.15572237
    I brainstormed a little on Transformations in the previous thread, reposting.

    >Two kinds of transformation- Complete and Scale transformations
    >Complete transformation is where your body takes on an entirely new shape and function. 
    >-Use a NPC/Monster statblock for your new form
    >-New rolls, not based on your current stats 
    >-Your Life and Magic remain the same, however.
    >Scale transformation is where your body remains the same, with only a difference in size.

    Most of what followed were ideas for scale and not full-body changes.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)21:55 No.15572259
    That'd probably be a bit cleaner than what I had.
    What about the Frozen condition itself? Good, bad, somewhere in between?
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/13/11(Wed)22:02 No.15572317
    I see no problem with the frozen status.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/13/11(Wed)22:22 No.15572455
    Please post new material in the threads for consideration by the community before adding it to the wiki, but otherwise always glad to see more contributions.

    I'm working on an overhaul for the drop system. I'll post it here when I'm happy enough with it to show. Should be a bit more dynamic.

    I think the easiest solution might just be to work it like 4E. When you reduce an opponent to 0 life, you can choose to incapacitate rather than kill. It's not the most realistic thing in the world, but it's simple and keeps us from having to create an additional mechanic for nonlethal combat.

    Also, how are you working magic for your Rito? For my game we're using only what's posted on the wiki, and my Korok mage is decidedly unhappy.

    MAGIC: I think I'm going to flesh out the alternate magic system I suggested earlier and post it for testing and consideration. Having spells available only as loot limits a mage's ability to expand. Other characters can pick up new tricks with techniques, but to get a new spell a caster has to wait for a quest reward or visit a nonexistent magic shop.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/13/11(Wed)22:31 No.15572529
    Also, while I agree that many of the most damaging magic should be Power-based, being completely unable to attack without a decent Power is pretty jacked. Weapon-users can choose from a variety of weapons based on different Virtues to do their thing, but a magic-focused character currently NEEDS Power in order to attack people with spells.

    I'll work on that alternate for consideration. As a rough outline, simple things like Ice, Fire, Push, Heal, etc. will be basic spell effects. A person gets one basic spell effect per rank in the Magic skill. A series of techniques modifies the dimensions of the basic effects, like Burst, Area, Charge, Sustain, Chain, etc. while increasing mp cost. Spells like Ice Arrow, Fairy Transformation, Din's Fire, etc. will be unique things that cost less mp or go beyond what the base system is capable of, and will still be treated like loot and handled through quest reward, so nothing we've done so far will be thrown out in any way, just worked in perhaps slightly differently. Most won't change at all, probably.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)22:35 No.15572568
    Alternate magic system? Are we adding even more complications to things before we finish what we're still working on?
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)22:36 No.15572577
    I don't particularly like the idea of getting a free effect for each rank in |magic| (not only does it feel like a poor fit in terms of the feel and style we're going for, but it also seems like it could stand to make mages considerably overpowered in terms of versatility), but I wouldn't be at all opposed to having |magic| techniques to modify base spells -- in fact, that seems like probably the best way to do techs for that skill.
    >> Cz 07/13/11(Wed)22:40 No.15572613
    I'm working on some more drawfaggin' and songs, but I really wanted to ask if there is a game I can be squeezed into for playtesting.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)22:53 No.15572750
    If there isn't, WE SHOULD MAKE ONE! ON SUPTG!

    Also, can't wait for your ideas/art.
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/13/11(Wed)22:54 No.15572756
    I had thought of this earlier. Having techs for magic that mirror meta-magic. Like one for increasing the area of an AoE or extending the duration.

    I can see how starting out as a mage can be frustrating. You only get 1-2 spells and can only get more very infrequently. Compare to DnD where you start as a wizard with at least 5-6 spells and get more pretty frequently in the early levels.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)22:58 No.15572794
    >Weapon-users can choose from a variety of weapons based on different Virtues to do their thing, but a magic-focused character currently NEEDS Power in order to attack people with spells.

    Just because you can't deal damage directly doesn't mean you can't contribute in combat. Power gets direct damage and a number of debuffs. Wisdom gets heals, defensive buffs, illusions, and some debuffs. Courage gets offensive buffs, mobility, battlefield control (pushing people around and such), and probably summoning if we decide to add that (which I think we should).

    Playing a Wisdom- or Courage-based mage in this game and complaining that you don't get direct damage spells is like playing a cleric or a beguiler in D&D 3.5 and complaining that you don't get direct damage spells. It's not what that character type is meant for, but it doesn't mean you're useless in combat -- you just have to approach combat as something a bit more sophisticated than just HIT IT TIL IT'S DEAD!
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)23:05 No.15572852
    >Compare to DnD where you start as a wizard with at least 5-6 spells and get more pretty frequently in the early levels.

    Of course, wizard's are pretty much universally recognized as overpowered in D&D...at least in 3.X, anyway, but given your statement I'm guessing that's what you're referring to anyway.

    But yeah, metamagic-type stuff as |magic| techs makes perfect sense. Techs for the other skills are basically all about applying your existing tools to exciting new uses, and that's basically what metamagic does -- it's just in this case, your tool isn't a sword or a bow, it's a particular spell.
    And even more than just improving existing aspects of a spell, I see nothing wrong with techs that add aspects too. For instance, a swordsman can take the Sword Spin tech to make his melee attacks an AoE, right? So how about something like "Burst Spell" to turn your basic Fire spell into an AoE? How about techs that let you splice effects of one spell you have onto another? For example, if you have a spell with the Wind elemental descriptor, you could take a tech that lets you add a pushing effect to other spells you cast.

    And so forth. It's not so much that our magic system is lacking in terms of the basic framework, but rather the framework is disappointingly empty since it hasn't been given nearly as much attention as mundane combat in terms of fleshing it out with techs and such.
    >> Cz 07/13/11(Wed)23:06 No.15572869

    I'm up to this, but I donno how to work IRC in the slightest. Who wants to make a channel?
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 07/13/11(Wed)23:07 No.15572879
    You should be able to purchase certain simple spells, though. Spells with unique, puzzle-solving effects would be reserved as treasure.
    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)23:13 No.15572944

    "/join #LOZ_RPG"

    >> Anonymous 07/13/11(Wed)23:24 No.15573073
    >You should be able to purchase certain simple spells, though.

    Honestly, I disagree. The whole "spells as items" thing is part of what sets the Zelda series apart from generic fantasy, and thus also something we should try to preserve in our game. I think giving ways to play with the effects of spells for creative and interesting new uses would be a much better way to give mages their fun than letting them get entirely new spell effects.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/13/11(Wed)23:27 No.15573102
    Do we really know what feel we're going for? The only examples we have to draw from are the games, really, in which you play someone who uses magic items and casts spells as a supplementary afterthought. Link is a fighter, first and foremost. Somebody who focuses their life on magic wouldn't use magic the same way.

    While I agree that non-damaging contributions are totally worthwhile, everybody needs at least some capacity to deal damage, and right now a Wisdom or Courage mage really can't. Wisdom and Courage-based spells should be primarily used for more control-based effects, with minimal damage thrown in to contribute.

    At any rate, I'll post what I get done tonight for consideration. My mage is reporting frustration, so I consider it a duty to try to make the magic system more satisfying.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/13/11(Wed)23:41 No.15573252
    Okay, here's what I've got for basic spell effects. A simple list of 7 things mages can do, maybe. Getting 1 per rank in Magic is too much, so I figure getting one for every odd numbered rank is better. Or, perhaps one at first rank, and then one at every even numbered rank, so max 4. Also, I'm not sure about having armor not count toward reducing damage from magic sources. Warded armor and shields can reduce more damage from magic, but having magic bypass armor as a rule makes it considerably more powerful.

    Basic Magics:

    Shield (Wisdom)
    Single Action
    Cost: 2MP
    Duration: Sustain
    Range: 5
    Target: Single creature
    Check: 3(2)
    Effect: The target of this spell gains 1/2 heart of damage reduction. This damage reduction stacks with armor.

    Fire (Power)
    Single Action
    Cost: 2MP
    Duration: Instant
    Range: 20
    Target: Single creature or object
    Check: Opposed (defense)
    Effect: 1/2H (fire) damage per success over the target. If the target takes damage, they catch fire and burn for 1/4H (fire) damage per round, taking the damage at the start of their turn until extinguished. The target or an adjacent creature can take a single action to extinguish the flames.

    Ice (Wisdom)
    Single Action
    Cost: 2MP
    Duration: Instant
    Range: 20
    Target: Single creature or object
    Check: Opposed (defense)
    Effect: 1/4H (cold) damage per success over the target, and the target's speed is reduced by 2 for each of your successes over the target until the start of your next turn. If the target's speed is reduced to 0, they are Frozen (as described here: >>15570674).
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/13/11(Wed)23:44 No.15573287
    Push (Courage)
    Single Action
    Cost: 2MP
    Duration: Sustain
    Range: 5
    Target: Single creature or object
    Check: Opposed (defense)
    Effect: Knockback 1. The spell is considered a Medium creature for the purposes of this effect.

    Heal (Wisdom)
    Single Action
    Cost: 4MP
    Duration: Instant
    Range: 5
    Target: Single creature
    Check: N(4)
    Effect: The target recovered 1H of life per success.

    Blast (Power)
    Single Action
    Cost: 3MP
    Duration: Instant
    Range: 10
    Target: Single creature or object
    Check: Opposed (defense)
    Effect: 1/2 damage per success over the target. If the target takes damage, they suffer Knockback 1. This spell is considered a Medium creature for the purposes of the knockback effect.

    Lightning (Courage)
    Single Action
    Cost: 2MP
    Duration: Instant
    Range: 20
    Target: Single creature or object
    Check: Opposed (defense)
    Effect: 1/4 (lightning) damage per success over the target. If the target takes damage, they are stunned for 1 round. (If we make armor count against magic by default, the secondary effect should be that it bypasses armor rather than stuns)

    That's all I've got for basic magics. Next it Techniques for modifying them into bursts, areas, chains, etc. Charge spell would probably be unchanged.
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/13/11(Wed)23:45 No.15573290
    Hmm... We should definitely stick with magic as items, but maybe split it into two sections. Have the spells as we do now: as quest rewards and dungeon treasure. These are the really good spells. Perhaps even make all higher level spells in this section. The other section of magic would be basic spells. These could be comparatively easier to obtain. These could be purchased with rupees from a magic shop or taught by a low-level sage or what not. Low level and basic spells would be in this section.
    With this setup, you can have a fairly decent array of spells in the beginning that aren't too hard to get, and higher more powerful spells in the mid-to-end game that are much more difficult.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)00:11 No.15573594
    >Also, I'm not sure about having armor not count toward reducing damage from magic sources. Warded armor and shields can reduce more damage from magic, but having magic bypass armor as a rule makes it considerably more powerful.

    That's kind of the point. Magic has limited usage based on your available MP (which is pretty much always considerably less than you have in terms of ammunition for a ranged weapon), and the ranges on spells are generally significantly shorter than the ranges for a ranged weapon. Or will be once we replace the ranges on the wiki with something that actually makes the slightest bit of sense -- seriously, whoever came up with those has no sense of scale. I mean, what kind of bow can only shoot 20 goddamn meters?

    And at any rate, the armor bypassing was mostly done on the basis of fluff reasons -- it seems to me that armor wouldn't make much of a difference against an attack that doesn't work on the basis of impacts or sharp edges. If that proves to be too extreme, I suppose we could let armor affect magic, but it should still probably be on a reduced basis -- perhaps half the normal reduction (rounded down), with Warded armor getting the full reduction?

    I think this is a good compromise. Basic spells are still easily obtainable, but still clearly item-like in nature.
    >> Cz 07/14/11(Thu)00:17 No.15573640
         File1310617029.png-(4 KB, 696x72, Song-of-Storms-sheet-music-smb(...).png)
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    More song ideas COMMIN AT CHA!

    Castrato of Charity
    -Give Energy to Ally
    1) Sacrifice 1d6 MP to any target who hears this song
    3) Sacrifice 1d6 HP to any target who hears this song
    4) Select a Skill, the target adds your skill roll's keep to their next roll of the skill you have chosen.

    Couante of the Changeling
    -Cast Illusion to disguise self
    1) Mimic a target's voice that you have heard within 24 hours, for 1 hour.
    2) Cast an illusion that makes you out to be an inanimate object of your mass or smaller.
    4) Transform into another person of your race that you have seen within the last 24 hours. This effect lasts for 1 day, and will fade upon taking damage.
    5) Transform into any creature you have seen within the last 24 hours. This effect lasts for 1 day, and will fade upon taking damage.

    Minish's Oratorio
    -Summon Minish to give a drop item
    3) Roll from a Minor Threat Monster Drop List and receive that item.
    4) Roll from a Moderate Threat Monster Drop List and receive that item.
    5) Roll from a High Threat Monster Drop List and receive that item.
    6) If this song is played during a boss fight, upon defeat of the boss receive one extra Maximum Heart Piece and the end of the fight.

    The Rich Man's Rococo
    -Alter your riches that you find.
    1) The next item you find will be a Green Rupee
    2) The next item you find will be a Blue Rupee
    3) The next item you find will be a Yellow Rupee
    4) The next Rupee you find you receive double the amount of the color.
    5) The next Rupee you collect will change into the next color higher then what was received. This song cannot raise a A Silver Rupee any higher.
    6) The next item you find will be a Silver Rupee
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)00:22 No.15573684
    I believe a castrato is a type of singer, not a type of song...perhaps "cantata" might be better?

    I won't comment on the mechanics of those now, since it's pretty late (I should have been in bed half an hour ago), but I will at least suggest that much.
    >> Cz 07/14/11(Thu)00:27 No.15573724

    Oh herp

    Cantata of Charity
    -Give Energy to Ally
    1) Sacrifice 1d6 MP to any target who hears this song
    3) Sacrifice 1d6 HP to any target who hears this song
    4) Select a Skill, the target adds your skill roll's keep to their next roll of the skill you have chosen.

    I also had two other ideas I haven't fleshed out, if you guys want to then by all means. I'm gonna be stating up something else real quick just in case we ever wanted to use it. It will also have something to do with my next drawing.

    Siphon Symphony
    -Steal from your enemy.

    Waltz of Wisdom
    -Find hidden objects/Speak to Spirits for assistance (Like Saria's Song)
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)00:33 No.15573767
    Magic users should be like Wizrobes.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)00:37 No.15573806
         File1310618220.png-(515 KB, 760x600, Wizzrobe_(The_Wind_Waker).png)
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    >> Tech-Point gent 07/14/11(Thu)00:39 No.15573833
    Explaining further:
    Spell ranks 1-3 could be found in a shop. (Maybe rupee cost 50/100/200, with level 3 only being found in specialty shops). Levels 4-6 would be the second type - only being rewards.

    I had also thought about limiting spells since the high availability of low level spells would quickly allow a spell arsenal with enough money. So I came up with having a max number of spells based on your Magic skill.

    Rank 1: 2
    Rank 2: 2/2
    Rank 3: 3/2/2
    Rank 4: 3/3/2/2
    Rank 5: 4/3/3/2/2
    Rank 6: 4/4/3/3/2/2
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/14/11(Thu)00:41 No.15573846
    But you still have the issue of a magic user not being able to do anything new until they go shopping. And you need a way larger selection of spells. For instance, you've got a single-target ice spell, and a neato area fireball spell. Want to do ice in an area? Need a whole new spell. This also really limits what you can do with techniques for magic. You could have one like charge, one for size of area, one for range maybe. All the techniques would do is make the numbers bigger, really, because changes in how the spells function just takes another spell. That's fine for D&D, but this a much more minimalist system with fewer character resources to spend typically.

    Also, and I think this is important, the VAST majority of spells would still be completely handled as items and given out as loot and quest rewards or taught by sages or whatever, including most of the spells on the wiki and suggested in the threads already. The purpose of the basic magic system I'm suggesting is to give somebody who focuses on the Magic skill to the exclusion of weapon skills something concrete to wield, and in a dynamic way based on the techniques they purchase.

    In any case, what's the feedback on the spells I listed? Do any seem over/underpowered or inappropriate? And I do stick by allowing Wisdom and Courage based spells to do -some- damage. Any caster with a 1 or 2 in Power is going to feel left out, especially given the overwhelming majority of spells on the wiki currently based on Power.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/14/11(Thu)00:44 No.15573870
    ... You realize you've created the 3.X magic system, right? Or something very, very much like it. The only difference is that you have mp and don't learn spells on your own. I'm just pointing that out, not saying it's a terrible idea.
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/14/11(Thu)00:47 No.15573890
    Well, 3.5 -is- what I'm most familiar with. It's not really surprising that I would draw on it, consciously or not, when creating a new system.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/14/11(Thu)00:47 No.15573894
    Good point on the magic vs. armor thing. And yes, weapons (particularly ranged) could use some reworking.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/14/11(Thu)00:49 No.15573916
    Of course, it's to be expected. I think we should endeavor on something more original for this system, though. At the end of the day I guess it's what people are happy with, but my current player isn't happy with spells being exclusively obtained as items or rewards, and the lack of techniques, so that's what I'm working to correct.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 07/14/11(Thu)01:12 No.15574105
    I made a few techs for wind magic users (specifically Gerudo and Hylian, but they're for any race) that should be on the wiki. If not I can repost them
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/14/11(Thu)01:12 No.15574108
    Alright, going over your suggested starter spells and critiquing.
    I don't think that any of the spells seem over/underpowered, but how many of them would you start with? What about characters that aren't dedicated casters with only 1-2 in magic (a semi-caster if you will)? Would semi-casters also get the full array of starter spells? Or perhaps you could give 2-3 of your starter items for the "starter-spell kit".
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)01:24 No.15574213
    What about DM discretion for handing out spells?

    In several of the games, many spells are granted by Great Fairies, who aren't deep within dungeons but simply hidden away in some areas.

    Use the fairies as a device for delivering spells to magician players as a reward? Like if the player has achieved some major goal, shortly afterward the party happens to stumble across a great fairy fountain and s/he can pick a new spell?
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/14/11(Thu)01:25 No.15574229
    My thought was you get 1 basic spell for your first rank in Magic, then 1 more for each even-numbered rank, so a person with maxed-out magic will have 4 of them, needing to find the more advanced spells from loot if they want to do anything more. If we keep to strictly giving out spells as loot/rewards, these would probably the ones you can choose from at character creation.

    Assuming we use the classification of basic spells I presented, there are some techniques for magic users, including a small rework of Charge Spell.

    Magic Techniques

    After using an Active magic technique, your next action must be either to cast a spell or use the Charge Spell technique

    Area Spell (Active)
    Requirements: Magic 3
    XP Cost: 3
    Actions: 1
    Effect: Your next basic spell that targets a single creature or object instead targets all creatures and objects in an area centered in an origin space within range of the spell. This increases the cost of the spell by 100% per meter outward from the origin space the spell reaches, to a maximum number of meters equal to your Magic skill.

    Burst Spell (Active)
    Requirements: Magic 2
    XP Cost: 2
    Actions: 1
    Effect: Your next basic spell that targets a single creature or object instead targets all creatures and objects in a burst outward from your own space. This increases the cost of the spell by 50% per meter outward from your space the spell reaches, to a maximum number of meters equal to your Magic skill.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/14/11(Thu)01:27 No.15574249
    Chain Spell (Active)
    Requirements: Magic 3
    XP Cost: 4
    Actions: 1
    Effect: Your next basic spell that targets a single creature or object also targets additional creatures or objects within range of the spell. This increases the cost of be spell by 50% per additional target, to a maximum number of target equal to your Magic skill.

    Charge Spell (Active)
    Requirements: Magic 2
    XP Cost: 4
    Actions: 1+
    Effect: The next basic spell you cast has its effects increased. This increases the cost of the spell by 50% for doubled effects. You may spend multiple consecutive actions charging a spell, adding an additional multiplication of the spell's effects and increasing its cost by an additional +50% per action spent charging. The maximum actions you can spend charging a spell is equal to your Magic skill.

    >"Flood detected" pssh...
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/14/11(Thu)01:29 No.15574275
    That seems kind of contrived if you did it regularly, but once or twice for the better, more advanced spells that's not a bad idea at all.
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/14/11(Thu)01:40 No.15574377
    This whole mix-and-match magic system is growing on me now that I see it in writing.
    I had a couple questions:
    About your Push spell: how is it sustained?
    On area and burst techs: the area progression goes like this: 1x1/3x3/5x5/7x7...etc?
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)01:48 No.15574454
    I don't know if it's been touched upon yet, but LoZ songs are world ending if put into even the slightest nefarious hands. Take the sun's song. Crops fail because some dick with a flute keeps it perpetually night.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)01:51 No.15574482
    The Sun's Song only effects the party's perception of time. Time passes normally for everyone else.

    I suppose you could be an incredible asshole to one farmer in particular, but that would be more effort than it's worth
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/14/11(Thu)01:56 No.15574519
    The progression for area stuff is 1x1, 2x2, 3x3, 4x4, growing out one more space each time. I forgot about the sustain on Push. It should be Instant like the others, I was using the Gust spell as a base and accidentally left the sustain thing in.
    >> Cz 07/14/11(Thu)01:56 No.15574522

    Which can also be a good quest starter.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)01:57 No.15574526
    For everyone else, it's as though the player vanished until sunrise/sunset.
    >> Cz 07/14/11(Thu)01:58 No.15574532

    Mind if I can get some feedback on these?
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/14/11(Thu)01:59 No.15574545
    Although the Song of Storms is one you could really cause chaos with.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)02:00 No.15574552
    Naming's a bit funny at times, but generally looks good.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)02:03 No.15574581
    With the rain, yes; but the entire region would be free of minor curses.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/14/11(Thu)02:04 No.15574584
    Charity and Changeling seem fine, though I'd use set numbers for the Charity one rather than 1d6.

    The others seem pretty broken, unless we limit how often you can use songs. Somebody could just play the Minish Oratorio until they were filthy rich, and the rank 6 ability is a tad on the absurd side.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)02:07 No.15574618
    anyone care to help create a template for creating spells and songs? perhaps it could be used to allow players to create their own spells and songs? here's what I've got so far

    >Instant/Delayed/X Rounds/Sustained
    >Touch/X Meters/Line of Sight

    >Instant/Delayed/X Rounds/Sustained
    >X Meters/Line of Sight
    >> Cz 07/14/11(Thu)02:08 No.15574625

    I thought there was a use limit.
    1-3 At Wills
    4 Twice a Day
    5 Once a Day
    6 One A Day/Plot McGuffin.

    The info's not set in stone so go ahead and make changes if you'd like. People said we needed songs so I just whipped this up.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/14/11(Thu)02:13 No.15574655
    Came up with another tech.

    Channel Spell (Active)
    Requirements: Magic 3; Melee, Heavy, or Ranged 2
    XP Cost: 5
    Actions: 1
    Effect: The next basic spell you cast is channeled into a weapon or piece of ammunition you touch. After that, the next attack with the enchanted weapon delivers the spell's effect as well as the weapon's damage. If the weapon attack is not successful, the channeled spell is wasted.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/14/11(Thu)02:15 No.15574678
    Ah, I had missed that, apologies. Minish is still broken, since you can get at least some small item for free at will. And the Rich Man's song is just peculiar to me, but I guess there's nothing wrong with it.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/14/11(Thu)02:17 No.15574693
    I'm not sure exactly how to work the spell effect. It could be purely based on your attack roll, or involve a separate Magic check. The former seems less clunky.
    >> Cz 07/14/11(Thu)02:20 No.15574714
         File1310624401.jpg-(19 KB, 349x287, 1307204980928.jpg)
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    See but here lies the beauty of it. They can make all the money they want appear in the grass, jars, loot drops ect. But they can't carry it all, unless they got a big enough wallet to fit it all.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/14/11(Thu)02:51 No.15574907
    Haha, I guess that's true, but it makes purchasing anything that doesn't cost more than your wallet can carry a trivial matter, especially since PCs could pool money for a large purchase, then refill all their wallets with a day of incessant flute music.

    Thinking about it, I like using a separate Magic check for delivering the spell effect after the weapon attack is successful. Means you need a decent Mental stat to blend your sword with sorcery.

    SO, regardless of whether we use the thing where you get a few basic spells for your ranks in Magic, how do we feel about the spell I posted here >>15573252 and here >>15573287 as being the basic spells you can choose at character creation? These would also be the spells typically available for purchase, if you want spells to be available for purchase at all in your games, with other spells having to be found as loot or given as rewards.

    I'm still for awarding them based on Magic skill, but if we're really opposed to that it's not a bad list for starter spells.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)02:51 No.15574910
    >Deal direct damage
    >Reduce or prevent direct damage
    >Restore health
    >Increase a stat or otherwise enhance certain actions
    >Decrease a stat or otherwise hinder certain actions
    >Add magical effects to items
    >Alter the size, shape, or state of an object
    >Manipulate an element or target made up of a particular element (control the direction of water and air currents, cause fire, light, or shadow to spread in a certain direction)
    >Alter the size or intensity of an element or target made up of a particular element (intensify fire, wind, water currents, light, darkness, make plants grow)
    >Summon an element(create fire, light, shadow).
    >Summoned animals will perform one of the following tasks before returning to wherever they came from.
    >>Retrieve an item
    >>Activate a switch, lever, button, or other trigger
    >>Perform a search for hidden exits or items
    >>Attack a single target
    >> GM numero 555 07/14/11(Thu)03:14 No.15575063
    The way our GM works magic is that the caster has focuses that he uses to nake his magic happen. The focus level tells him the highest rank of spell he can cast. He is currently equiped with a pendant rank 3 that channels wisdom based magic. Our GM also sayed that the focus can be stolen but you still KNOW the spell you are just unable to cast it.

    Sound ok? Our caster has only 2 spells but he is also. A wisdom based fighter using daggers
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/14/11(Thu)03:26 No.15575126
    That sounds like a decent way to work it, though I don't know about magic being implement-dependent as a rule. Seems too easy to dick over a pure caster. Are you only using the currently posted spells? If so it makes sense to double up with Wisdom-based fighting. What do you think of the system I suggested here?
    I'll probably try it with my mage for our next session to see how it works out in actual play, find any kinks or flaws.
    >> GM numero 555 07/14/11(Thu)03:45 No.15575232
    Yea, how you've done magic there looks a lot nicer. Our GM gave spells out as a quest reward as well as rupees (we were helping out a sage) and the caster is liking his wisdom fighting but thinks the mage needs a bit more fleshing out so yea. Looks good.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/14/11(Thu)03:51 No.15575267
    Giving out cool spells as rewards should still be the primary method of acquisition, but I hope people like the basic spells and magic techs I proposed to flesh out magic using.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)03:54 No.15575292
    if I could get some help/input on the template (>>15574618, >>15574910) I was thinking players could create their own basic spells by having modular spell components (>>15574618) to combine
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)04:34 No.15575486
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    > Deku Scrub mid-combat

    Just a quick doodle I did for this, enjoy!
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/14/11(Thu)04:46 No.15575542
    It seems sort of complex for regular use by players. The more variables involved, the more likely there is to be a snag in the system. Pretty much what you have is a list of the various components commonly found in spells, but there are no guidelines for how to put them together or balance them. Even if that comes later, there are a LOT of components to try to fit together, and I'm sure they will fit cleanly.

    The point of what I outlined was to give some basic effects and techs that people could mix & match to create a variety of effects without need for an exhaustive spell list or trying to mesh components. I just don't see the placing components together going smoothly.

    What it's really useful for, though, is as an out-of-game resource for players and DMs to create new unique spells for loot or quest rewards.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/14/11(Thu)04:48 No.15575554
    I'm considering adding a bit to Charge Spell. "Charge Spell can be combined with another Active magic technique, so long as the additional mp costs are paid for each."

    Would that be too much, you think?
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/14/11(Thu)06:10 No.15575904
    Updated the wiki with the climb/jump/swim rules from the last thread.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)08:54 No.15576650
    We already have a template that we're using for statting out spells -- if you look at the wiki, you'll see the pattern pretty quick.
    Elements shouldn't be something attached to every single spell and song, but rather just an added descriptor for the ones that do have an elemental association.

    Also, while I like your breakdown of spell types, I'd prefer not to use meta-terms like "buff" and "debuff" if we can help it -- it always feels more appropriate to me when spell groupings are named according to conventions that could be used in-character. "Enhancement" and "Weakening" were proposed in an earlier thread, which would make good substitutes for "buff" and "debuff".
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)09:50 No.15577044
    Hey guys, could someone edit the wiki so someone like me, a complete noob, could understand the mechanics?
    Like, make it the "for dummys" version, please, just explain the rules a tad more clearly.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)09:57 No.15577074
    I don't think it's that hard to understand.
    if something bothers you, just ask.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)10:08 No.15577136
    Conflict is resolved with a d6 roll & keep system, using linear comparison for opposed checks. This means that you roll X six-sided dice (where X = your ranks in the relevant Attribute + 1 for every odd-numbered rank in the relevant skill) and only use the Y highest dice from that roll (where Y = your ranks in the relevant Virtue + 1 for every even-numbered rank in the relevant skill). The abbreviated notation for this type of dice pool system is XkY. Linear comparison means that in the case of a contested roll (such as in combat) you compare your highest roll to your opponent's highest, your second highest to their second highest, and so forth. If one party in the contest has more kept dice than the opponent, the extra dice are simply treated as automatic successes.
    I think this means that you roll a certain number of 6 sided die, and add +1 to every even numbered Virtue that's relevant to the check, and every Skill you add +1 to every odd number. You use your highest die to determine the check,but what are the other die for?
    Sorry if I sound like a moron, I've only played one role playing game ever in my life.
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/14/11(Thu)10:13 No.15577156
    I agree with >>15576650
    Also, where would spells like mind control and dispel fit in?

    I guess we should settle this matter. When we say that something is within 3 squares, which of these better describes the covered area.

    - - - - 0 - - - - - - -0-0-0- - -
    - - -0-0-0- - - - - 0-0-0-0-0- -
    - -0-0-0-0-0- - -0-0-0-0-0-0-0-
    -0-0-0-x-0-0-0- -0-0-0-x-0-0-0-
    - -0-0-0-0-0- - -0-0-0-0-0-0-0-
    - - -0-0-0- - - - - 0-0-0-0-0- -
    - - - - 0 - - - - - - -0-0-0- - -

    I guess my real question is are we allowing movement and sq. counting diagonally or only up/down/left/right?
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/14/11(Thu)10:16 No.15577167
    You got most of it correct, but there's a part you missed. You roll a number of dice equal to your attribute (Physical, Mental, Spiritual) and -keep- a number equal to your Virtue (Power, Courage, Wisdom). Then you add a rolled die for every even level in the skill and add another kept die for every even level. Your kept dice (the highest that you rolled) are used to determine success
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/14/11(Thu)10:20 No.15577188
    Aww.. it ruined my ascii pic explaination.
    - - - - 0 - - - - - - - - - - -0-0-0- - -
    - - -0-0-0- - - - - - - - - 0-0-0-0-0- -
    - -0-0-0-0-0- - - - - -0-0-0-0-0-0-0-
    -0-0-0-x-0-0-0- - - -0-0-0-x-0-0-0-
    - -0-0-0-0-0- - - - -- -0-0-0-0-0-0-0-
    - - -0-0-0- - - - - - - - - 0-0-0-0-0- -
    - - - - 0 - - - - - -- - - - - -0-0-0- - -
    Also, I meant you get a rolled die for every -odd- skill level, and kept for even.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)10:26 No.15577214
    Thank ye, I will read more and if I have any questions, I'll ask you guys.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)10:28 No.15577220
    I think it would be fair to be able to stack as many active magic techs on the same spell as you want, provided you can pay the cost. Or at most, require a |magic| check with increasing difficulty for each additional tech applied.

    I like your system of basic spells and techniques to modify them -- I think that's a great way to run magic for this game -- but I take issue with your proposal of giving out spells with |magic| skill ranks. A dedicated magic-user already has more versatility than somebody dedicated to any other skill to begin with, and this only increases the gap.
    Consider the full implications of this. If we give out spells with skill ranks as you propose, a dedicated mage could start with as many as 10 different tricks, all using their primary skill -- 3 spells as starting gear, plus 2 spells for skill ranks, times two since each spell can be used in either its basic form or modified by the starting tech. A swordsman, on the other hand, has only two or three -- basic attack, a single starting tech, and possibly some sort of useful tool taken as starting gear (and most likely using a secondary skill).
    Even without getting spells for skill ranks, the mage still has the advantage, since there is the potential for a tremendous variety of "items" that all use the |magic| skill. No other skill can boast such variety, with the .

    I think >>15573290's suggestion of allowing basic spells to be purchased readily, combined with the flexibility already inherent in the |magic| skill, should give mages plenty of toys to play with as long as we make sure to have plenty of techniques to modify the spells (including at least two or three priced at 2 XP, so they're available at character creation). The problem isn't the basic system of how spells are acquired, but rather the lack of statted-out spells and techniques for working with them.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/14/11(Thu)11:22 No.15577543
    These are very good points, and I agree with them quite fully. No free spells for ranks, but having these be the ones you can start with and purchase fairly readily.

    I'll try to hammer out a clear-cut explicit explanation for how to stack multiple magic techs onto a single basic spell.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)13:02 No.15578241
    We should really have skills for cannons/steampunk/ ish stuff (Theres a fair amount in the zelda universe IE that bazooka Ashei fired near the end of twilight princesses) I recommend that building one would use Mental power, and using one would fall in between Physical Power(For the heavy and simple to use stuff) Physical Courage ( For the light and simple to use stuff).
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)13:13 No.15578334
    We briefly considered a |crafting| skill, but it seemed like something more fitting for NPCs.
    I heard a voice, as if a million artificers cried out, and were silenced.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)13:15 No.15578349
    I say we do it anyway, because crafting is fun and better too many options than too few.

    Besides, with that logic, we might as well just all play Link clones, and while I'm a fan of Four Swords, there are other games too...
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)13:43 No.15578590
    Alright,it would use mental power/wisdom.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)13:55 No.15578708
    How about this for a song?

    [INSERT NAME HERE], level 2
    All who have sworn an oath of loyalty or friendship to the musician can hear this song when played, no matter where they are.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)14:06 No.15578822

    Have Wisdom as a governing virtue for crafting, with each individual craft being governed by a different attribute, for instance:

    Blacksmithing - Physical/Wisdom
    Potion making - Mental/Wisdom

    Though I'm having some trouble thinking of crafts that would be governed by the Spiritual attribute.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)14:13 No.15578893
    How about this?
    Berserker spell, target will gain +3 Physical and +2 power for 3 rounds, he will attack who the closest person to him, with no preference over friend or foe, after the 3 rounds the target will collapse from exhaustion.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)14:17 No.15578926
    For a song, how about this?
    Birds eye view : Take control of a non hostile flying animal for 30 minutes, you can use this to scout and listen in on people. While in Birds eye view you will be left undefended and stationary.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)14:20 No.15578955
    Engineering mental/wisdom.
    I guess you could do something "Artsy" for Spiritual.
    Like masks, or interments, or enchantments, Something along the lines for that.
    >> adimal 07/14/11(Thu)15:16 No.15579593
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    Hey guys, been watching for awhile, and now I finally have some arts.

    Ugh, sorry, they're crappy and unfinished, but I just wanted to stop by and say I had something. I can clean these up in no time for ya. Here is a goron going into a roll, I guess. One more after this.
    >> adimal 07/14/11(Thu)15:17 No.15579615
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    Here is another I've done. I think its pretty cool. But I'm not certain about the anatomy and I'm positive that the perspective is all wonky. Any drawfags wanna help me with a quick look-over?
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)15:19 No.15579624
    Also,there should be a song that can Miniaturized/macroize things.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/14/11(Thu)16:40 No.15580416
    I'm not sure how appropriate that is for the system. So far nothing straight out boosts your stats, just provides bonuses to specific rolls.

    That's not too bad.

    Interesting, but I think the utility needs to be expanded on.

    For all of these, they would need to be fleshed out and scaled, of course, but there are a few interesting ideas here.

    I was going to work it like the latter, without penalties for diagonal movement or anything. It's just easier that way, and since I don't think we'll need to be laying down template and using measuring tape with this game the minor difference in distance on the game board is pretty irrelevant.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)16:54 No.15580530

    The arm and leg that are holding the dodongo's mouth open seem like they could be a little more tensed.


    We have a spell for making things fairy sized, but I don't think we have a song for that yet.

    Might not be something we want to do, we can't have spells AND songs for every thing, just one or the other for some.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)18:30 No.15581597
    I thought we got rid of crafting early on.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)19:24 No.15582214
    So, I'm working on finalizing/updating the spells from the video games, and I'm getting to stuff like Din's Fire and the LttP medallions that would really benefit from a concise method of dealing with area-effect attacks, so I'd like to go back to the AoE mechanics discussed earlier in the thread (>>15568993, >>15571137, >>15571412, >>15571502). How does this sound for a unified area-attack mechanic?

    Group opposed check: A group opposed check is a special kind of check used to handle effects, such as area-effect spells and attacks, that are created by a single character and opposed individually by multiple targets.
    The attacker first rolls an unopposed check against a success threshold of 4. Each defender then rolls an unopposed check with a success threshold equal to the number of successes scored by the attacker's check. The success threshold set by the attacker's number of successes can't be higher than 6; if the attacker scores more than 6 successes on his check, each success beyond the 6th instead reduces the kept dice total of each defender by 1.
    Typically, a group opposed check has one or more scaling elements (typically damage or duration). These begin at a base value proportional to the attacker's kept dice total, and are reduced by one increment for each defender success. If a defender has more kept dice than the attacker, each kept die beyond the attacker's kept dice total counts as an automatic success no matter what it rolled, just as unopposed dice in a direct opposed check are automatic successes.
    Some group opposed effects might not have scaling effects at all; in this case, defenders simply must make a certain number of successes (as defined by the effect description) in order to avoid the effect.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)19:25 No.15582223
    Example #1: Gor Igneus the Goron pyromaster uses an area-effect spell with a damage increment of 3/4 heart. He rolls 6k5 for this spell, rolling higher than 4 for three of his five kept dice (3 successes). Each creature in the area of effect then rolls their defense against a success threshold of 3, counting each kept die beyond the 5th as an automatic success. Since Gor Igneus kept 5 dice for the spell, the base damage is 5 × 3/4, or 3+3/4 hearts, so each defender takes ♥♥♥¾ of damage, minus ¾ for each success in their defense roll.

    Example #2: Impa the Shiekah uses an illusion spell with a duration dependent on a group opposed check to cloud the minds of her enemies and make her escape. She rolls 7k6, rolling above 4 for four of the six dice (4 successes). Each target of the spell then makes their opposing roll against a success threshold of 4, counting each kept die beyond the 6th as an automatic success. Since Impa kept 6 dice for the spell, the base duration is 6 rounds, so each target is affected for 6 rounds, minus 1 round for each success in their opposing roll.

    Example #3: Saria the Kokiri musician plays the Sun Song to halt a horde of ReDeads in their tracks. She rolls 6k6 for the song's area-attack mode, rolling above 4 for five of the six dice (5 successes). Each affected ReDead then makes their opposing roll against a success threshold of 5, counting each kept die beyond the 6th as an automatic success. The Sun Song's paralyzing effect is not scaling, so it doesn't matter how many dice Saria kept. Each ReDead that didn't make at least 3 successes is paralyzed for 2 rounds.

    >Fun fact: I actually rolled (using a dice roller program) for each of these examples. Saria had some crazy good luck...
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/14/11(Thu)19:42 No.15582474
    I really, really like these. It takes some reading thoroughly, but the examples help a lot, and in practice it seems like it would be fairly easy and quick to run.

    I had thought so as well. Crafting should probably be plot or side-plot driven, and handled outside the normal scope of rules. We could establish vague guidelines, but I'm not sure a crafting system would be called for in this system.

    With regards to the steampunk tech, all of that was fairly ancient/forbidden/lost artifacts, seen only rather rarely and probably not worth putting into the base system. That could just be my impression, though. I'd be open to seeing some brainstorming on it, but it would have to both fit into the system and be different enough to warrant inclusion.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)19:45 No.15582520
    FYI: We have 66 posts left until autosage (assuming this one doesn't get ninja'd).

    Also, we are archived: http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/15560584/

    Votes are good, you should vote.
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/14/11(Thu)20:09 No.15582841
    I see no problems in this design. It's a good solution to the AoE problem.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)22:08 No.15584057
    Alright, so if we're all cool with that area/mass attack mechanic...

    Din's Fire (Power)
    Rank 3
    Single action
    6 MP
    Duration: Instantaneous
    Range: 5 meters
    Area: 5 meter radius centered on you
    Check: Group opposed (defense)

    A burst of flame expands out around you, consuming all in its path.
    Make an area-effect |Magic| check with damage increment 3/4h (Fire), opposed by defense, against each creature within 5 meters.

    Nayru's Love (Wisdom)
    Rank 3
    Single action
    12 MP
    Duration: N rounds
    >Originally was suggested as 3 rounds, but I think this would work nicely as a variable duration dependent on a check.
    Range: 1
    >Could possibly be extended?
    Target: Single creature
    Check: Unopposed - N(4)
    A shimmering blue diamond encases the target, protecting it from harm
    The subject is immune to all damaging effects for the duration of the spell, but the caster cannot use anything requiring magic power until the spell ends.
    >The restriction on magic is taken directly from how the spell works in OoT, but we may want to drop it for our system.

    Farore's Wind (Courage)
    Rank 3
    Single action
    6 MP
    Duration: Indefinite and instantaneous (see text)
    Range: 0 and unlimited (see text)
    Check: Unopposed - 3(3)
    You instantly warp to a previously designated point.
    This spell is used in two phases:
    The first time you cast it, it sets a magical marker at your current location, which is visible to you as a floating green orb but undetectable to all others.
    Subsequently, you can cast it again to instantaneously warp back to the marker you set previously. This erases the marker; you must set another marker before you can warp again.
    You may transport yourself and up to one additional creature for each rank you have in |magic|.
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/14/11(Thu)22:42 No.15584422
    I think Nayru's Love should be higher rank, probably 4. Complete invulnerability is quite powerful and 12 MP is a lot for just a rank 3. Range 1 means you can casts it on someone else right?

    Do AoE attacks hit -everyone- in the area or just enemies? Does it hurt the environment too? Don't want to accidentally start a forest fire.

    No problems with Farore's Wind.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)22:49 No.15584487
    Good points on Nayru's Love. And yeah, range 1 means you can shield up a friend. Probably should actually be touch, come to think of it.

    I'm thinking Din's Fire and other AoE spells should do friendly fire and environmental damage. They strike me as being pretty powerful, so there needs to be some kind of drawback.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)23:35 No.15584910
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    Figured I'd give you guys another in-progress pic.

    I'm going to be at work for most of the day tomorrow, so I won't have time to work on it until late at night.

    Kokiri ranger!

    I keep unintentionally ratcheting up the detail on these characters :\
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)23:37 No.15584936
    I wish to see a female Deku Shrub.
    >> Anonymous 07/14/11(Thu)23:39 No.15584956
         File1310701177.jpg-(313 KB, 1300x700, dekuscrub_fire_2.jpg)
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    Good news, I already drew one!

    She's also a mage.
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/14/11(Thu)23:40 No.15584962
    Ooooh, I like the look of this one. The leaf choker is a nice touch. Keep it up
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/14/11(Thu)23:56 No.15585114
    I'd personally up the damage on Din's Fire to 1H per increment, but I'm assuming these spells are at the upper-middle end of the spectrum. I'd increase the range on Nayru's Love to 5. Farore's Wind seems fine.

    >>15584487, >>15584422
    I agree that friendly fire should be ON by default, with only specific spell and effects having exceptions. Should area healing/buffing magic have the same trait, affecting allies and enemies in the area alike?

    Nicely done so far!
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/15/11(Fri)00:05 No.15585175
    MAGIC: So I'd like a little more input on the basic starter spells (>>15573287, >>15573252) and techniques (>>15574655, >>15574249, >>15574229) that I suggested. I'll make minor fixes and tweaks before posting them to the wiki, but does this seem like a good list for spells available at character generation and for purchase? I'd like to get them on the wiki to make them available officially.

    Other spells will be considered "advanced" or "unique" and should have either effects that can't be duplicated by this basic list or that are more powerful/less expensive. Unique spells won't, as a rule, be affected by the currently proposed Active magic techniques, as they have predetermined values and should be better/different than what you could do with the basic spells + techniques.

    How's that all sound?
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/15/11(Fri)00:25 No.15585314
    I like the starter spells. Make the list available to characters at creation as starter items. Then make them available at shops in case they wanted to buy more. (Also in case there's a character that puts points in magic after creation. He needs access to basic spells somehow.)
    About the techs, I think you should be able to stack as many of them on a spell as you like with a single action, except for charge spell. That one should always require additional actions.
    >> Anonymous 07/15/11(Fri)00:36 No.15585384
    Lightning seems pathetically weak, and also not at all suited to Courage. Yes, lightning is generally considered part of the "air" element in most settings, and wind is definitely Courage-associated, but I don't recall ever seeing the wind-lightning connection at any point in any of the LoZ games. Lightning in this system feels more Power-oriented

    Also, I've given it a lot of thought, and I really don't think there's a need to make a damage spell for every Virtue. Just because Power isn't your strongest Virtue doesn't mean you can't do anything with it -- even if you max out Wisdom or Courage, you can still have 2 (or 3, if you're human) points in Power to use for Fire or Ice or what-have-you. You won't be doing very much damage, since the number of successes you can get is limited, but that's not the point of your build anyway -- you're primarily there for support and control, not blasting. You'll have the same rolled pool either way, because it's still using Mental and |Magic|, which you are focused on -- it's just instead of more kept dice at a lower damage increment, you have fewer kept dice at a higher one. I haven't actually crunched the numbers, but that strikes me as a wash.
    Plus, since Courage is mostly geared toward utility and offensive buffs, it strikes me as something you'd use for more of a gish build, so that right there accounts for your damage-dealing potential. It's just Wisdom mages who'd have a problem, and like I said you can still have Power as your secondary Virtue and be able to do some good.

    So I'd say cut Lightning and give Courage some kind of basic offensive buff, since that's more its focus. We could possibly also use something exploration-related for Courage as a basic spell, since the only Courage-focused spell in-canon is Farore's Wind.
    Ice I feel could probably go back to Power, but if there's enough consensus to make it a Wisdom spell I suppose I could deal with that.
    >> Anonymous 07/15/11(Fri)00:37 No.15585394
    As for the techs, I don't have time to look at them in too much detail, but I did notice that they all cost 3 XP or more, which is a problem since it means a mage can't have any |magic| techs at character creation. Whether we want to change the techs already there or just come up with new ones, either way works, but we do need to have at least one or two entry-level techs for mages.
    And finally, I don't se why we couldn't allow the |magic| techs to modify more advanced spells. Seems like a pretty arbitrary restriction to me, and it makes the techs significantly less attractive.
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/15/11(Fri)00:57 No.15585537
    I see where your coming from. It's kind of the same thing with Power concerning Heavy weapons and passive defense. High Power means you are focused on attacking foes. Courage and Wisdom should be more support and defense.

    You're also right regarding techs. There does need to be something available at creation. But, I would think that most spells would be able to meta-magiced with the techs, but specific ones like the Bombos Medallion or Nayru's Love would be insane with chain spell, etc, so we can't have that just for the sake of balance.

    A suggestion for the lightning spell: make it a 1/4H lighting damage enchantment for melee and heavy weapons.
    >> Anonymous 07/15/11(Fri)01:06 No.15585623
    Lightning is definitely canon and Power-based. Remember ALTTP?

    Also, can we try again with the crafting rules? Even if they won't see much use, better to have the option than to have it waved off as "suited to NPCs only"
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/15/11(Fri)01:22 No.15585739
    That's the idea.

    What's so weak about Lightning? It's minimal damage with a Stun. I sort of figured that was better than Ice, unless you manage to freeze someone solid.

    Also, about the virtues, the real problem with limiting anything that deals damage to Power is that it results in a vast overabundance of spells being reliant on Power, as is the case with what's on the wiki right now.

    Where I think the distinction should be made is in what the spells do, outside of damage. Power should deal more damage by default and have shoving or debilitating effects on the enemy. Wisdom should be control-based effects or defensive effects. Courage should be offensive bonuses and different kinds of environment effects.

    While you can contribute to combat in non-lethal ways, and I'm certain there are folks who will get satisfaction out of that, you'll inevitably wind up with the same resentment people have about being the group healbot in 3.X games. Damaging effects that involve strong control elements don't really fit well with Power anymore once the strong control element is introduced.

    As a more appropriate fix for Lightning, how about making the secondary effect that allies deal additional damage or get a bonus to attack the target for the next round?
    >> Anonymous 07/15/11(Fri)08:12 No.15588479
    Right, lightning itself is canon, what I meant was there nothing in-canon that's both Courage- and Power-based

    The thing is, given our breakdown of what kinds of effects fall under which Virtue, a Wisdom or Courage caster is only a healbot if you play them that way (or if the GM is a dick and doesn't give you anything other than heal spells). A Wisdom caster has illusions and certain kinds of debuffs, which puts them in the same kind of vein as a battlefield control wizard or beguiler if we're talking 3.5 classes -- and that's hardly an unglamourous role. And a Courage caster doesn't even get heals, so that's a moot point.

    And like I said, just because Power isn't your primary Virtue doesn't mean you absolutely cannot use Power-based spells -- it just means you're not going to be quite as good with them as one who focuses on Power. You aren't completely barred from dealing damage, you're just not as good at it -- which is exactly the same outcome as if we stretched to come up with low-damage spells for the other Virtues.

    Earlier, you compared the magic system to the weapon system, and how we have weapons for each Virtue, right? That is a flawed way of thinking -- we didn't say "okay, we need weapons for each Virtue" and come up with ways to make that fit; we said "okay, we have these particular kinds of fighting styles, which Virtues would they fall under?" And it just so happens that they split fairly well between the three Virtues.
    It's the same deal with magic, but since magic can do a lot more than just deal damage, there's a lot more to split up.
    >> Anonymous 07/15/11(Fri)08:22 No.15588520
    Has someone saved this on suptg yet? we lose half our Zelda RPG threads because no one saves them.
    >> Anonymous 07/15/11(Fri)08:23 No.15588530
    As for your claim that:
    >limiting anything that deals damage to Power is that it results in a vast overabundance of spells being reliant on Power

    I really don't think this will be the case when we flesh out the spell list fully. Remember that we're working with a very incomplete spell list at the moment -- judging by what's currently on the wiki will not give you an accurate idea of what the final product will look like.

    Also, while I won't necessarily say that anything that deals any amount of damage should go under Power, I will say that rather than actively trying to come up with damaging spells to fall under the other Virtues, we should focus on statting out canon spells and coming up with spells that would be fun/interesting/useful, and then assign them to the appropriate Virtues as it stands out to us given the effects.

    I'd say the better criterion isn't "does it deal damage?", but rather "does it have a damage increment?" A spell that deals a fixed amount of damage in addition to a scaling debuff or control effect puts the primary focus on the debuff/control; a spell taht deals a damage increment with an added debuff or control effect puts the primary focus on the damage. The former is a debuff spell with a side of damage, and so doesn't fall under Power unless the style of debuff is obviously Power-based; the latter is an attack with a side of debuff, and so fits better under Power.

    And finally, I will say again: cut Lightning, give Courage a basic buff spell. Regardless of how powerful or weak it is, we don't need that many different kinds of blasty spells in the basic list, and in it's current state it's completely ignoring a major class of effect that's one of Courage's main unique fields.
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/15/11(Fri)08:23 No.15588531
    >> Anonymous 07/15/11(Fri)08:43 No.15588629
    Yep, we're in there:

    And actually, we've only had one thread (out of 18, counting this one) not get archived. We're pretty good about that.

    On a similar topic, the countdown to autosage is at roughly 45 posts, in case anyone was wondering.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/15/11(Fri)08:58 No.15588715
    Valid points. I'm glad you clarified that not all damage-dealing spells will be under Power, because that's what I was thinking our criteria would be. I'm fine with having some minor fixed-damage applied to spells that are predominantly non-damage based, while leaving scaling damage to Power.

    I'm going to take these things into consideration and rewrite the list of basic spells. I'll still try to give an even spread to the virtues, but this time without compromising the themes of those virtues.

    Thanks for the input, everybody. I think the next list will be a lot closer to what we all want from the system.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/15/11(Fri)09:19 No.15588821
    Okay, that was easier than I thought with the new perspective. I changed a few things
    - Fire is now Burn, with reduced increment damage to balance the setting them on fire thing.
    - Ice is now Freeze, and is decidedly focused on control.
    - Threw out old Courage powers for more appropriate ones.

    Here's the second draft of Power-based basic spells:

    Burn (Power)
    Single Action
    Cost: 2MP
    Duration: Instant
    Range: 20
    Target: Single creature or object
    Check: Opposed (defense)
    Effect: 1/4H (fire) damage per success over the target. If the target takes damage, they catch fire and burn for 1/4H (fire) damage per round, taking the damage at the start of their turn until extinguished. The target or an adjacent creature can take a single action to extinguish the flames.

    Blast (Power)
    Single Action
    Cost: 3MP
    Duration: Instant
    Range: 10
    Target: Single creature or object
    Check: Opposed (defense)
    Effect: 1/2 damage per success over the target. If the target takes damage, they suffer Knockback 1. This spell is considered a Medium creature for the purposes of the knockback effect.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/15/11(Fri)09:20 No.15588831
    And the second draft of the Wisdom-based basic spells:

    Heal (Wisdom)
    Single Action
    Cost: 4MP
    Duration: Instant
    Range: 5
    Target: Single creature
    Check: N(4)
    Effect: The target recovered 1H of life per success.

    Freeze (Wisdom)
    Single Action
    Cost: 2MP
    Duration: Instant
    Range: 20
    Target: Single creature or object
    Check: Opposed (defense)
    Effect: The target takes 1/2H (cold) damage and their speed is reduced by 2 per success over the target's defense until the start of your next turn. If the target's speed is reduced to 0, it becomes Frozen.

    Shield (Wisdom)
    Single Action
    Cost: 2MP
    Duration: Sustain
    Range: 5
    Target: Single creature
    Check: 3(2)
    Effect: The target of this spell gains 1/2 heart of damage reduction. This damage reduction stacks with armor.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/15/11(Fri)09:24 No.15588849
    And here's the new, more appropriate Courage-based basic spells:

    Inspire (Courage)
    Single Action
    Cost: 2MP
    Duration: 1 round
    Range: 10
    Target: Single creature
    Check: N(4)
    Effect: The target gains bonuses to attacks based on the number of successes. For the 1st, 3rd, and 5th success the target gains an additional rolled dice, and for the 2nd, 4th, and 6th successes they gain an additional kept dice. The number of successes that a target can benefit from is equal to your Magic skill.

    Shift (Courage)
    Single Action
    Cost: 2MP
    Duration: Instant
    Range: 10
    Target: Single ally
    Check: N(4)
    Effect: The creature can immediately move 1 meter per success as a free action.

    I'm thinking Power and Courage could each use one more basic spell, something like crippling an enemy for Power, but I'm not sure what for another Courage-based spell. It should be something really basic and fitting with the virtue to be on the basic list. I wasn't a fan of Gust because shoving folks around seemed like more of a Power thing, even if you say it's done with wind, but I suppose it might still work. Forced travel? Hrm.

    How are we feeling about the second draft? More appropriate?
    >> Anonymous 07/15/11(Fri)09:38 No.15588946
    Ooh. Nice.
    Perhaps have something like Faultline for Power? Does x Earth damage and slows the enemy.
    Or maybe something that makes them weak to (fire) attacks. That could be fun.

    As for Courage, Gust seems pretty cool. If you make push enemies/allies/yourself, maybe make it let the target get pushed into the air for falling damage/limited transportation?
    I mean, being able to fly with magic is something you can do in Zelda. Wizrobes and Ganon so it all the time.
    And it sure isn't Power like we define Power. Unless they push the rest of the world down or something.
    >> Anonymous 07/15/11(Fri)09:41 No.15588970
    Looks pretty good to me.
    To fill out Power's list, perhaps we could use or adapt the Sap Strength spell on the wiki? I believe it was discussed as a potential starter spell.
    As for Courage, I think pushing with wind is fine there. It has some Power-type elements to it, but that's kind of Courage's thing in the first place -- it's a blend of forcefulness and tactics.
    >> Anonymous 07/15/11(Fri)09:50 No.15589028
    Sapping strength seems like a Wisdom thing. Power is about brute force; the direct approach, if you will.
    >> Anonymous 07/15/11(Fri)09:54 No.15589053
    I always felt like the more "sinister" forms of debilitating magic would be a Power thing, but I guess it depends on how you look at it. I was thinking of Sap Strength as more of a necromancy-type thing, which is appropriate for Power, but if you look at it as a mind-affecting kind of spell then it makes sense for Wisdom.
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/15/11(Fri)15:39 No.15592113
    I think on Burn the DoT part should take 2 actions to extinguish. Does it keep burning until they die?
    Blast looks good.

    A thought occurs about Shield. Does it block magic damage too? or only half or what?

    For another courage spell, Gust would be fine. It could also help the lighter races stay airborne longer.

    Overall an improvement I would say. The list stays closer to the virtue's ideals.
    >> Anonymous 07/15/11(Fri)16:45 No.15592674
    I would assume that the Shield spell would work against magic damage, particularly given that the Fire and Ice spells on the wiki state that their damage "is unaffected by armor, but is affected by magical damage reduction".

    That should probably be a general rule set down for magic -- unless otherwise stated by a specific spell, damage from spells ignores all reduction from mundane armor, but is affected normally by damage reduction from magical effects and Warded armor.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/15/11(Fri)17:19 No.15592983
    Yes, this should definitely be stated as a default quality of magic.

    Since magic ignores armor specifically, and Shield provides "damage reduction" then it would work against both, which seems appropriate to me. As for burn, I'll make it a double action to extinguish, so it's a more significant effect, and as of right now it burns till they die or extinguish it, but no check is required to put out the flames, just actions.

    How about these for the other Power and Courage spells?

    Cripple (Power)
    Single Action
    Cost: 4MP
    Duration: Sustain
    Range: 10
    Target: Single creature
    Check: Opposed (defense)
    Effect: The target takes a -1 penalty to their rolled dice for attack and defense per success.

    Lift (Courage)
    Single Action
    Cost: 2MP
    Duration: Sustain
    Range: 10
    Target: Single creature
    Check: N(4)
    Effect: You increase the distance the target can fly or jump horizontally by 1 meter per success, and increase the distance they can jump vertically by half that amount (rounded down).
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/15/11(Fri)17:26 No.15593063
    On cripple, -1 penalty means that a rolled 6 becomes 5, 5->4, 4->3, etc.?

    Lift actually doesn't seem all that useful. Jumping isn't really helpful in combat unless you happen to be flying.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/15/11(Fri)17:27 No.15593081
    The reason I made the techs cost 3 or more is because at character creation taking one would effectively double a beginning caster's capabilities, but they should be affordable after the very first session. I guess we could make Charge Spell cost only 2, though. That would be fine by me.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/15/11(Fri)17:33 No.15593149
    Yes, that's how Cripple works. It's pretty brutal, but has a minimum of reducing a target's attack/defense to 0k(whatever), at which point their kept dice move into rolled dice until it makes sense, then they roll.

    As for Lift, you're right about it not having a lot of great combat application. It's a fairly useful and basic utility effect, though, which is why I thought it deserved to be in the basic list for Courage. I mean, technically there's nothing that says all the basic spell have to be combat-oriented.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/15/11(Fri)17:44 No.15593287
    Wait, Burst Spell only costs 2. I guess if you don't want that one at all, you don't have any available starting techs, but again they are all pretty much available after the first session and as a DM I'd be more than willing to let folks hold onto those starting 2 xp until they could afford something they want.
    >> Anonymous 07/15/11(Fri)17:52 No.15593374
         File1310766726.png-(98 KB, 842x417, keese.png)
    98 KB
    Wasn't happy with the last keese I did, so here's a better one.

    Including fire keese and ice keese.
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/15/11(Fri)18:01 No.15593486
    :D I like the cartoony style.

    Oh, I misread it as if you roll 6 on a die, it counts as 5. The way you wrote it makes more sense.
    >> Anonymous 07/15/11(Fri)18:05 No.15593520
    Ah, you're right about Burst Spell. I guess I missed that last night in my quick skim before I went to bed.
    Charge Spell does seem appropriate for a 2-XP tech, though, so I support changing that.

    These look pretty good to me, though I think Lift could probably be switched to either +2 meters per success and/or a cost of 1 MP/round rather than 2 MP/round. Cripple's pretty nasty, but the high cost seems like it'd do a good job of balancing it.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/15/11(Fri)18:11 No.15593571
    Those are cool. I like them!

    I'll try to reword it to make it more clear.

    I think I'll reduce the cost to 1MP.
    >> Anonymous 07/15/11(Fri)18:36 No.15593891
    I think we should get in the habit of always expressing bonuses and penalties to dice pools in dice notation; +1k0 instead of "+1 to the rolled pool", -0k1 instead of "-1 kept die", and so forth.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/15/11(Fri)19:12 No.15594333
    Agreed, that will make things easier.
    >> Anonymous 07/15/11(Fri)19:17 No.15594396
         File1310771848.png-(1.32 MB, 2091x2028, korokstest2.png)
    1.32 MB
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/15/11(Fri)19:22 No.15594468
    Hey, can somebody upload the latest versions of the character sheet onto the wiki? Just realized it still only has the old ones.
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/15/11(Fri)22:22 No.15596010
         File1310782929.png-(19 KB, 1029x402, Area-Burst explanation.png)
    19 KB
    Oh right I had a though about area and burst a long time ago, but forgot to bring it up. Now, before you said that the range would increase like this 1x1->2x2->3x3, etc. That doesn't really make sense. If you increase the radius of the attack by one with each increment, then it would go 1x1->3x3->5x5->7x7 because it's increasing on both sides at once, not just one. I provided a pic to help explain. (Sorry for my poor MSpaint skills.)
    >> Anonymous 07/15/11(Fri)22:25 No.15596035
    rolled 88 = 88

    Oh, right. That makes sense.
    Are we sticking to the easier grid version, or are we going to try something more Euclidean?
    (Please don't try something more Euclidean.)
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/15/11(Fri)22:30 No.15596064
    Counting off every-other diagonal square as an extra square in DnD is a pain. I say just let diagonal moves = 1 square and call it a day.
    >> Anonymous 07/15/11(Fri)22:33 No.15596080
    rolled 51 = 51

    I could post that explanation for how pi=4 in DnD, with a circle being a round square, and a sphere a round cube, but I can't be bothered.

    It seems that discussion has calmed down a bit. Any suggestions for a topic?
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/15/11(Fri)22:34 No.15596091
    Hmm... *looks at the wiki for something to fix*
    >> Anonymous 07/15/11(Fri)22:58 No.15596248
         File1310785107.jpg-(351 KB, 1296x972, riverzora.jpg)
    351 KB
    So I know we've got another drawfag working on monsters, he's doing a great job and I have no intention of stealing his thunder, but it was a long, boring day and work today and I found my mind wandering.

    I remembered some of the discussion we had about Sea Zoras and River Zoras and the idea of reworking River Zoras to look more like a divergent species of Sea Zoras and well, I started sketching.

    So here's some concept progress I did. Started with the upper left, decided I wanted them to be stockier, sort of a dwarf to the Sea Zora's more elf-like qualities (generally tall, lithe, graceful), and then I realized that they still looked really different if the River Zora's tail was, well, where a tail should be and not on their heads like Sea Zoras, and that led me to the center concept.

    Anyways, if the other fellow's already made good progress on his own ideas, feel free to ignore these. I've just had a lot of ideas running around in my head all day and had to let some of them out!
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/15/11(Fri)23:04 No.15596290
    Right, you are correct. My mistake on the math.

    Well, the next thing that really needs work is that our equipment needs rupee prices, but that is possibly less important that stating out items like the boomerang, power bracelet, and other standard magical stuff to give to players.

    MAGIC: Any more input on the list of basic spells (>>15592983, >>15588849, >>15588831, >>15588821)? I'm going to take into consideration the fixes people have already mentioned, but I'd like to get these added to the wiki soon, unless they need more work.
    >> Anonymous 07/15/11(Fri)23:06 No.15596308
         File1310785611.jpg-(72 KB, 800x450, what the fuck is this shit.jpg)
    72 KB
    >square fireballs
    >> Senko 07/15/11(Fri)23:14 No.15596343
         File1310786060.jpg-(220 KB, 2000x1650, zora rogue.jpg)
    220 KB
    Quick Zora Rogue PC sketch, nothing special
    >> Senko 07/15/11(Fri)23:16 No.15596358
         File1310786195.jpg-(293 KB, 2000x1650, lizalfos.jpg)
    293 KB
    shit lizalfos sketch etc. etc.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/15/11(Fri)23:18 No.15596375
    Have you looked at the shape of fireballs in 3.X? It's still a square, just one with sawtooth sides and more annoying to deal with.
    >> Anonymous 07/15/11(Fri)23:21 No.15596402
    Needs art of Rito PCs :o

    I don't care if there aren't any.
    >> Anonymous 07/15/11(Fri)23:25 No.15596428
    Someone remembered my ramblings! Any chance of a more shark-like version of the Zora design? More inhuman and predatory while still being sleek.
    >> Your Friendly Neighborhood DM 07/15/11(Fri)23:27 No.15596441
    The Rito in my game is Onigiri "Riceball", the "Hero of the Sky!" as he likes to introduce himself. He wields a sword and a shield (actually a thick and very shiny serving tray he found and attached a handle to). He has an instrument, too.

    It is a triangle. Riceball is a moron who fancies himself a great hero.

    Drawfaggotry of him would be... hilarious.
    >> Anonymous 07/15/11(Fri)23:31 No.15596461

    I think at that point any resemblance to the original River Zora designs would disappear, and that's something I'd rather not have. All of the key markers those designs had (spiny fins, eyes with visible whites, grumpy fangs) aren't present in sharks.

    Plus - not very many freshwater sharks, let alone ones that live in rivers. Yea yea I know, fantasy, real world rules do not apply, but that's just how I roll. Sorry!
    >> Anonymous 07/15/11(Fri)23:31 No.15596464
    That's badass.

    If you're talking about me (the one who posted the keese, octorok and like-like), then don't worry about it bro. I just want the pdf to have some art for each creature. I'm not trying to hog glory or anything, so the more people contributing, the better.

    Same goes for >>15560832
    By the way, would the creator of those sketches mind if I clean up and color a few of them, or were you planning on doing that already?
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/15/11(Fri)23:32 No.15596475
    He...plays the triangle... You cannot imagine the enormous grin on my face.
    >> Anonymous 07/15/11(Fri)23:35 No.15596496
         File1310787337.png-(10 KB, 70x75, Link's_Awakening_-_Coral_Trian(...).png)
    10 KB

    Don't you fucking down on triangles, man!
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/15/11(Fri)23:39 No.15596525
    Let me try to stat out the power bracelet. Side note: Are we going to have equipment slots, i.e. only 2 accessories, no more that 1 quiver, etc.

    Power Bracelet (Hands)
    The wearer of the bracelet gets +2k2 on rolls lift objects and on opposed rolls involving starting, maintaining, or breaking a grapple.
    >> Anonymous 07/15/11(Fri)23:40 No.15596529
    This character is made of hilarity and win. We need a drawfag on that, ASAP.

    On the subject of things to discuss, I still have a bunch of spells from the video games to run by everyone, but I think I'll wait until the new thread to start on that since we only have a few posts left until autosage.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 07/16/11(Sat)00:08 No.15596739
    Can't stay long, just posting to say I hope our magic system is Zelda-like enough.
    >> Tech-Point gent 07/16/11(Sat)00:23 No.15596877
    I really think it's fine. The system we had before that was based almost completely on the games is like looking at half of a painting. Link was not a dedicated caster, so making a magic system that mirrors the games through Link's perspective would only make magic at best a side thought. We need to take liberties to make a system that would serve to model how a mage in the setting who puts all their time into magic would work.
    >> Anonymous 07/16/11(Sat)00:24 No.15596886
         File1310790287.jpg-(291 KB, 870x1200, kokiri.jpg)
    291 KB

    Linework's done, and that's all I've got for tonight. Expect more tomorrow night.
    >> Temporary Combat Namefag 07/16/11(Sat)00:41 No.15597052
    Thanks, but I'm hoping to scan and line them when I get my computer working again (these were taken with a phone.)

    I also think it's fine that every artist has their own style of how certain creatures or races look. For instance, I personally prefer the River Zoras as they are in the games, but as long as they're recognizable as River Zoras I'm happy to see them interpreted that way.

    Given the number of artists hanging onto this project (and the vast differences in art direction between Zelda titles,) it's good that we have a mix of styles. I personally draw in a slightly realistic style, but I love the Wind Waker art style so much that I'm overjoyed to see the cartoonier stuff (still wish we had some cel shaded art, though.) The Deku here >>15584956 is my all-time favorite piece so far.

    Since I'm pretty out of the loop on the mechanics discussion right now, are there any requests I can take? I was going to try my hand at Keese and Octoroks in my style, but anything's welcome.
    >> Inverted 07/16/11(Sat)00:52 No.15597126
         File1310791978.png-(1.12 MB, 2000x2000, zelda swim.png)
    1.12 MB
    Just a lil something I am working on. Hope that it will look decent upon completion!
    >> Anonymous 07/16/11(Sat)00:58 No.15597167
    FYI, we are on autosage.
    Working on a new thread, I'll post a link here when done.
    >> Anonymous 07/16/11(Sat)01:22 No.15597359
    New thread

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