>>16923979
I think you're right, but despite forcing nature to bend to their will, it seems like they're closer to the earth than the dragons.

The previous thread offered a sword made of "steal", presumably forged from a thief; but what power would it offer?

Undead giants, made of stone as much as flesh, impossibly ancient and near unstoppable...

...

Campaign idea anyone?

A giant gave me a sword made of stories

It seems to get bigger every time I use it

I really like the idea of Giant's able to forge concepts.

If we want Godzilla, maybe a Wyrm polymorphed into a Giant and seduced his enemy's wife?

>>16924005
yeah, wow, we completely skipped talking about shadow of the collossus somehow.

That brings me to another point. Over Huge size, it becomes increasingly unrealistic for a medium creature to be able to harm these creatures. 3.x rules require you to enter the square of the huge creature. This doesn't seem to quite capture it.

Maybe there's a skill challenge which allows you to do extra damage after several successes?

>>16924005
from dragon 336

>>16923988
Oh absolutely, I just think that, as we dissect the magic side of things

1. both are old species symbiotic with magic
2. their magics are both direct manipulation of quintessence rather than writing mere spells like lesser species
3. both go about direct wielding of this quintessence in radically different ways.

For giants
>A giant picks up the rock, squeezes it and the rock remembers its true name is actually sword in the same way that a nerd remembers that his lunch and pocket money actually belong to the school bully.
fits pretty well.

Dragons on the other hand would use manipulation and coercion tricking the object into adopting a new name. As such dragons, creatures of chaos and fire for the most part, would have less permanent magics than those of giants but no less powerful.

First thread
(For posterity)
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/16908940/

A sword of Hope, sheathed in Despair; the sword grows to fit the sheath.

>>16924005
Hmmmm
>An evil lich has sought the kingdom of Ordumeer, the land under the Red Falcon insignia. This great kingdom has never fallen to siege, no matter how large an undead army the lich has raised they all fall. However, a man in a tattered robe spoke to the lich one day, and unveiled the resting places of seven ancient and strong Giants and the means to raise them. The lich uses his vast powers to raise the seven Giants, their bodies stuck as stone, but living once more. It is the kingdom's darkest hour, as the lich marches forth with his seven beasts.

So either the party tries to stop the raising of all seven Giants, or some way to re-kill the unkillable beasts.

>>16924034
I like the contrast in lifestyles we're looking at, too. Giants either stick to their home lands or live as hermits of sorts, making what they need (the world is practically Minecraft to them) while dragons prefer to be somewhat more social and lording over the lesser races to various extents.

>>16924034
In the last thread I suggested that magic didn't exist before the Giants.

>Magic didn't always exist, in the time of the gods and dragons, it was just there, like air, the raw energy. But when giants showed up, they "forged" this raw energy into usable abilities, though to them is was more like making tools (Giant Magic) than crafting great spells. When they wanted to build mountains, they crafted the raw magical energy into gloves to move the stones of the earth with ease, when they wanted to craft rivers and lakes, they forged the energy into boots to stamp the ground flat. Over generations of this magic forging, the energy just naturally bonded with the giants, giving them their natural Giant Magic. It was the elves and the humans who forged magic into weapons, it was the giants who forged magic itself.

There was a one off post about mortals learning to use giant magic, but that it'd take a lifetime.

I'm thinking of Charlemagne here.

>>16924059
I like it too. And like the Giants, who have lived so long, the magic of the Earth has bonded to their very skin, the Dragon's should have some natural growth of magic. One suggestion in the last thread was the oldest Dragon has the ability to control the hides of dragons naturally.

>>16924079
One post suggested that exceptionally strong humans, like really strong, become attuned to the giant magic in the Earth, and gain a weakened form. Like a warrior growing to Giant size on the battlefield.

>>16924082
Giants are creatures of earth and stone, dragons of metals and jewels... hmm.

>>16924095
just growing in size is lame.

Although now we have a reason for muscle mages to come into existance.

>>16924095
>>16924100
Martial paragon path anyone?

>>16924100
Doesn't always have to be flashy, but what else would you suggest?

>>16924099
Dragon's manipulative nature could be there basic magic. Not a cunning personality trait, but just their natural magical prowess seeping out. They goad a group of adventurers into doing their bidding with a gift of precious gems, a day after they get the gems, the gems decay back into stones, being manipulated into being gems by the Dragon.

>>16924108
That'd be pretty awesome. Could also make a good epic destiny.

>>16924113
I'm thinking of the Truenamer from tome of battle, except that they use strength for their skill checks.

>>16924116
That's more a fey/leprechaun trick, really, but I can see the idea.

I wonder what happens when a dragon and giant put aside their differences and become an odd couple team up.

>>16924129
There was a myth in the last thread about a giant who was always the same size, regardless of how close they were to you. Maybe those should be leprechauns

>>16924100
Well thats just one example. A warrior dedicated to battle would naturally yearn to be stronger in war, thus size changing would be a benifit, some may simply gain the muscle of a giant, able to alter the size of other objects instead, or they may hear the whispers of the Earth and the singing on the wind and have a rudimentary form of True Naming, able to forge low grade weapons from stones or wood. That would be a handy power, a warrior loses his sword? Grab a rock and pull it into a sword.

>>16924151
I just don't like the image of a human being so strong that he can get Bigger. It doesn't click right in my head. Maybe he can act like he's a larger size category or something.

>>16924129
Well it would be very rare for such opposing forces to unite, but it would certainly be a strong team.

>>16924162
Well the magic of the Giant's is that they out muscle reality. Physics form to their force. Human-Giant Magic would be very complicated a rare, since the Giant gained it through physical means, a human would gain weak versions of it through their own physical prowess. A human who grows due to Human-Giant magic wouldn't be a massive man, he would tower over the others, but it would be a strain, his body stretching to it's limits. It would be a simple ideal, "I am big, because I am strong!"

>>16924169
Pic related.
In fact, pic VERY related thematically.

>>16924108
>>16924100
>>16924095
It does fit with, as the last thread brought up, the fact that so many heroes of legend have been called giants eventually as their status in myth grew. Finn McCool being a good example.

>>16924108
I'd post Flex Mentallo again but he's already in the other thread. Yes though, it does seem that we're inadvertently developing a suitable canon and backstory for muscle wizards. (not that they really needed one)

The giant gave me a sword forged from great ambition.
The knicks and kinks only seem to sharpen the blade.

Come to think of it, isn't Paul Bunyan basically a more modern version of the giant myth?

>>16924234
He's exactly that, Bunyan was a giant.

>>16924234
Paul Bunyan is the Sweet and Low of mythology, crass, processed and invented advertising for the Red River Lumber company.

>>16924246
And he walked across America apparently responsible for every major landmark. That's a pretty giant thing to do.

I like the idea that giants show in places where smaller races are colonising and developing, and lend a hand- cutting forests and mining mountains to provide building materials, creating and diverting rivers and streams, fighting great beasts and such. They leave when the little people seem to be able to cope on their own. Nobody's sure why, maybe ancient pacts or something.

The giant gave me a sword forged from itself.

It can only be seen when the blade is quenched in ink.

>>16924261
Most modern mythology becomes inseperable from marketing, that's what I love about it. See also Santa Claus.

>>16924264
The last thread had a lot of ideas of Giants cultivating the land for smaller races, the Giants were the ones who tamed the chaotic, primal land in the age of the Gods. Another post suggested that Giants build things that take humans months or even years to build, as a hobby. Like a giant sitting at his table, constructing a grand castles or large towns like an old man would build model ships and cities. They could simply gift the humans with their works or trade them for something else.

>>16924296
Now i'm imagining a castle on a table.

Nerd Giants

>>16924300
Nerd giants who hire adventurers to act as miniatures for their table top games.

I received from a giant a sword forged of hard work.

The blade's potential is limitless. It becomes what I will it to be.

>>16924264
So Paul Bunyan?

A giant gave me a sword forged of regret. I've never used it.

Hey if we're going this route, why not have a quick digression about how giants fit in to modern WoD style settings where magic has receded and humans and technology appear to run the show?

Brand name giants like Bunyan or the Green Giant, or (getting back to the idea of men becoming giants as their legend grows) giants of industry, giants of popular culture and so on.

Aside from reacting somewhat like their fae counterparts, which seems somewhat obvious, (isolation, dwindling numbers, leaving to go back to giant country etc, etc. We all know the standard tropes for a magical species leaving a human world) how would those giants who stay adapt to the modern environment?

>>16924300
>>16924296
Paul Bunyan type giants are the equivalent of model railroaders or Warhammer nerds.

Oh the irony.

>>16924300
Well that could happen, but I, personally, have been treating the Giant's in these threads as...old people. They relax after a day in the fields, doing small hobbies and listening to the music on the wind. They enjoy simple things and don't take the little things in life for granted. They don't ignore the small races, they notice even the fairyfolk when humans are too dense to see them. A trip to Giant's Country would be like visiting the "old country", or a land of retirees.

>>16924316
Hell, why not have ALL corporations be giants? CORPORATE PERSONHOOD after all. There's a reason they hold our economy hostage, and the reason is because they can step on the economy.

Holy shit, this explanation fits perfectly with how we've described Giants so far. They're so powerful, they can change the very meaning of words just by force. They can turn corn into batteries, and lay iron tracks over the earth binding it to unified time.

>>16924316
Giants of that kid would naturally need a Glamour of sorts to live in the world without attracting human attention.

Perhaps they've become like trolls in that they assume inanimate forms by day... becoming large statues, sculptures, or machines... just about anything big. They awaken and act rarely, but when they do, they accomplish great and sometimes terrible things.

>>16924316
Well, unless said modern era leaks into Giant's Country, then they have no real concern with it. But it would probably be similar to how your grandparents react to new technology.

>>16924316
They become the totems of especially worthy (and large) mobile machines.

The internet's totem giant is a seer, his peers had no idea why he wanted to be the totem of such a weak machine instead of something grand like a ship or a bucket-wheeler excavator.

>>16924330
Old folks with hobbies are pretty similar to nerds in practice, just not always latching onto new stuff.

I do love the idea of Giant's Country being basically a big country retirement estate, where giants sit around talking about the old days and playing chess with real knights, kings and castles.

>>16924354
Polyphemus in a mask- the perfect totem of the internet. (and yes, maybe a Guy Fawkes mask)

And I'm wondering what happens when humans invent giant robots.

Ok, on the list of /tg/'s Giant revisioning we have:
>Fleshed out some origins
>Fleshed out their relationship with humans
>Fleshed out their abilities
>Fleshed out their relationship with Dragons

So theres still some obvious things we should work on, like how, exactly, Giant's came to be. I don't think the God's should have made them as an opposite to the dragons, they should naturally have come about some how.

And I feel Giant's Country should be fleshed out some if you guys like.

>>16924011
Still very physical, though.
I think they'd have to punch symbols of the things.
So like
>Forge me a sword of my love for my country, that it may never dull as long as I serve.
"Right, just give me your soldier father's old helmet."
*squinch squinch*

>>16924358
If we treat Giant's Country as a sort of retirement estate we could also have another part of the myth, where other races sometimes seek entrance into Giant's Country in hopes of living their last years in the mythical land of the Giant's.

>>16924342
Oh glamours are imparative. I've always seen most giants as knowing a few of them in addition to being innately magical creatures. Giants can alter base quintessence as a triviality, learn bits of hedge magic, cantrips and glamours as a practicality and occasionally study more traditional "mortal" magics such as alchemy or necromancy as a hobby for fun.

>>16924337
all of them might be a bit much unless maybe you're playing as the technocracy and you have to keep tabs on giants born out of conglomeration, popular belief, cultural relevance or merely scope of influence. It would probably be the same special unit called in to deal with Paul McCartney's ghost pissing on tourists in broad daylight as called in to stop Enron's legion of oil slicked mutant penguins from Awakening into a giant*

*giant like Leviathan, which was often depicted as a horde of children

>>16924371
Their origins could remain murky easily enough, with them being so old that even when asked it's hard to tell whether they're talking about a hundred, a thousand or a million years ago. But I'm just low on ideas.

From the other posts, I have a vision of Giant's Country that's a mix of Old World style simple rural lifestyles, dotted with various settlements of smaller humanoids with castles and landscapes made by the giants, and maintained like an ant farm or hobby railroad.

>>16924378
"Forge me a blade made of courage, so that it may never dull even in the face of hopeless odds."
"Very well, give to me an old, worn down shield and the tattered banner of an army"
>Giant squeezes together the shield, the banner, a spark of fire and a solid stone and makes a stone sword of courage

>Dragons
>Covetous
>Thieving
>Manipulate True Names
>Dragon hisses at you
>The dragon tells you you're a rock/canada goose/miserable little pile of secrets/etc.
>Oh look at that, you can't disagree
And dragons just got scarier.

>>16924371
I would agree. Giants, gods and dragons are all, or were all, on about the same level of things. They are creatures born out of the Tellurian itself. They're like... the platonic ideals that we use to explain everything else. (another reason why they're so good at forging concepts)

As to "Giant Country" I think by its very nature it should be kept a little vague. It can be accessed by many means. A beanstalk to the clouds is one way, there are also literal gates somewhere, and gates that can only be accessed on a Tuesday. There are songs you can sing that will take you there and there are roads you can walk. A man could get there by getting lost in the desert and you could visit briefly during your dying breaths in a hospital. The only commonality is that it is exceedingly rare for a mortal to make their way into this other world.

I do really like this mental image however:

>>16924358
>Giant's Country being basically a big country retirement estate, where giants sit around talking about the old days and playing chess with real knights, kings and castles.

>>16924392
Hmmm, that true. Like a band of scholars seek to find ancient Giants, covered in stone and forest as they fell asleep and have yet to wake up. When they awake the Elder Giant they ask "How were Giant's born into this world?"

The Elder Giant just scratches the hills from his scalp, plucking trees from his eyelashes and yawns, " 'Ell if I rememba kid." Then he gets up and walks off.

>>16924411
But it would only last a short while. It is much more difficult to manipulate the True Name of a living creature.

>>16924438
Actually, it's quite easy. Just convince the creature that it is something else, and it will do the rest. The convincing bit is difficult though.
An unliving thing is harder to convert, but easier to convince.

>>16924429
I like the idea of Dragons, Giants and Gods being..there. No real birth, no fantastical creation, just existing one day. Weve established the Dragons came first, possibly born from the chaos, then the Gods came, then the Giants came.

As for getting to Giant's Country, some people suggested you could stumble into it by getting lost on a mountain top and climbing back down, like the ways you stumble into Fairylands

>>16924454
Hmmm, I would have though living True Naming was harder. Hell, perhaps thats another opposite aspect between Giants and Dragons. Dragons are better at manipulating the True Names of living things, while Giant's are experts at manipulating the True Names of inanimate things. Thus Dragons could convert warriors and kingdoms to their side, while Giants can turn entire mountains to gold

>>16924378
>>16924409
The concept-alchemy is a very nifty take on it. One I think we should expand on.

That said, I ADORE Anon's idea of forging concepts themselves. It's just too "old magick" to pass up. And we get all these cool swords out of it too.

It harkens back to thinking of the gods, giants and dragons as platonic concepts. Ideas that create reality and from which all other ideas spring. A giant, a living pillar of creation, can forge the concepts around him into new ones.

Perhaps using physical objects as metaphors for the concepts and then forging those objects instead of the concept itself is simply an easier way of doing it for some giants. Or like a focus or sacrament in mage: Not needed by the powerful ones, but still helpful.

and thus giants do both depending on the time, place and concepts in question.

>>16924409
>>16924378
On the other hand, commissioning giants seems a little forward.
Probably end up more like
"Oh hey, you're the only person in town brave enough to come see the giant. I'll grant you a boon, if you'd like."
>Well, I'd kind of like a shield or armor, we're at war with the neighboring country and my son is about the age of enlistment.
"Hmm. I understand. Take this shirt, it was woven from threads of distant love and patience. He should make it back alive and well. Just remind him to write home every now and then."

And there's a good five or six different ways the story could go from there, but anyway. Fun to imagine a giant squeezing things into magic items.

>>16924467
I'd just say concepts are easier to grasp in giantland.
Like a giant can actually reach out and pluck a bit of the sun's fire there, or plunge a hand into the ground for some of the roots of the earth, or stretch out a hand to snag the tail end of the western wind.
In mortal lands, they're a bit more limited.

>>16924454
>>16924463
I like this.

Ties in with giant magic being more permanent and dragon magic being more of a display of power.

A giant will tell the rock it is a sword and the rock will believe him forever (whether through innate trust or bullying) meanwhile a dragon will lie and tell a human they are a rock and the human will be quickly convinced but slowly stop believing. A giant would have little luck convincing a human of anything through magic, likewise a dragon may have to resort to spells and mortal magic if it wanted to turn a rock into a sword. And then it would be "a rock that was magicked into a sword" rather than simply a "sword"

I love giant thread.com!

I just noticed this, but has anybody read into the Titanomachy?

The legend about the 10 year war between the Greek gods and the titans?

It seems to me like it's a War between the Neutral Good Titans and the Lawfull Good Greek Gods.

The titans- essentially just Gigantic humans were always all about helping humans, gifting fire, relieving suffering, and trying to help in anyway they could at the cost of keeping things a little savage.

The gods were more about constructing shit, sacrifices, and instigating law and order.

>>16924485
Absolutely. That too. I wouldn't want to set hard and fast rules about where and when a giant can and can't forge concepts though. The very nature of the idea kind of insists we don't.

>>16924467
Yes, this this this. The Giants, being old and powerful, intertwined with nature, the concepts of the world. They can't just grab "bravery" or "ambition" out of the air and stuff it into a rock, they take objects perceived as these concepts, a shield protects, thus it contains the concept of bravery, since the brave protect the weak, an old training sword, covered in abuse and age, holds the concept of hard work. Like you said, "old world magic" vibe, since an object that represents the concept would have to be old, having soaked in the concept for ages, the older it is, the stronger the concept is represented.

>>16924470
This is another important thing. Giant's wouldn't grant just anyone a weapon, or an item, forged by their hands, they understand how strong their objects are in human hands. They give them to the worthy, those that prove they can be trusted.

Another thing is the idea of normal Giant items being treated as incredible artifacts by simply being used by Giant's. Like gloves made by Giant's gift a human incredible strength, boots made by Giant's give a human who wears them a Giant's stride.

So dragons are supernaturally good at lying...
I have the urge to throw out a bunch of Orb of Dragonkind/Palantir-esque artifacts that dragons use to manipulate mortals with.

Also, to cover the 'Bigass Fiery Destructothings', perhaps their skill with deceit usually covers up a simmering pot of rage, so if they get tricked in turn or stolen from or the like, they're going to be passing out the poisonous fiery pain with a big shovel.

Venom also works with the lying image. Perhaps just their blood causes paranoia?

>>16924524
One of the ways for that story to go is 'The king hears about the shirt, sends men to beat the shit out of the guy and his family, takes the shirt and gives it to his son. But since the son and the king are both scheming bastards, it provides no protection.'
An even more traditional take would be the guy going back for another two boons, and the third boon working out to where the king and the prince both die, he and his son survive, and he becomes the new king and rules wisely and well, while presumably the giant does a more heroic version of the Gendo Ikari handsteeple and goes 'Just as planned.'

>>16924485
I believe this is good too. A man visits the Giant's Country seeking a weapon to save his home from an evil scourge. To help, an old Giant grabs the music off the whispering winds, he takes the warmth from the gleaming sunlight, the sturdy force of the Earth below, and the gentle laughter off the river, bonding them to solid form and granting him a powerful weapon. The Giant's Country OOZES magic naturally, concepts are easier to personify.

>>16924535
So the Giant manipulates the humans to make things better? It would fit for a Giant who hangs around the human world to help out.

>>16924549
Though it makes me wonder how terrifying a malevolent giant could be...

>>16924525
I like, a Dragon being a presence of fear, paranoia and lies. Dragon blood a potent poison as it slowly kills from within, dragon scale armor isn't just tough, but those that face it are twisted by the residue presence of the dragon the attackers are subtly manipulated to not harm the owner. An legendary weapon called the Horn of Dragons had the power to turn anyone who heard it's sound into a minion of the horn blower for a small time.

>>16924524
>They can't just grab "bravery" or "ambition" out of the air and stuff it into a rock

Hey, >>16924467 here. I feel I should emphasize I don't actually agree with this as it's phrased. I like to think of it a giant being able to forge concepts themselves, as they are creatures from before concepts. Creatures that invented concepts. Creatures that, indeed, forged concepts.

But for ease, convenience, forgetfulness and a host of other reasons most giants tend to use objects that represent these concepts and forge those rather than literally taking the idea of "revenge" and forging a sword out of it. They still could, but it's not as easy as taking the blood of your dead father, the cloak of the assassin that killed him and the broken lock that gave the assassin entry and forging those into a blade.

I see it as akin to foci in mage, instead of like spell components in D&D. Helpful but not the be all and end all.

>>16924549
Yes, but also with an aim of just letting them manipulate each other.
A shirt that only protects if there's a loving family to return to.
A ring that summons guards that only stop the unjust.
A sword that would rather cleave its wielder than strike an innocent man.

If you're a greedy enough schmuck to take items with giant moralistic warning signs attached and expect them to work for you, then you deserve what you get.

Also not quite on topic, but does anyone remember the Lloyd Alexander book 'The Marvelous Journey of Prince Jen'? The gifts from that are a good starting place.

>>16924590
Ah, I see now. Ok I get it. An Elder Giant could snatch "Kindness" from the air around a man and forge it, but it would be tedious and difficult, so its easier to focus the man's kindness through a coat the man gave to a homeless man.

>>16924605
Exactly so. Just my take on it though, /tg/ may disagree.

(Also I just can't bear to retcon out all the awesome "sword made of _____" stuff)

Would the giant magic be institutionalised but highly secretive, or would it just come naturally to them?
Also, has anyone here played Avalon Code? Because I'm definitely imagining something like that when I read this stuff.

I had an idea that could certainly work for a series of short stories. A young boy stumbles upon Giant's Country, and goes through a series of exciting and wondrous adventures with a gang of friends. Think James and the Giant Peach, but James is lost in a world of giant everything.

>>16924625
That'd make for great kids' books. A bit like The BFG, but more expanded on.

Kinda funny that the ideas we've all come up with are pretty damn interesting and mythic but nothing too 'grimdark' or over the top, for the most part. It's the kinda stuff you could make a great story out of.

>>16924617
I think it would have to be natural.

Giants came first. Magic as we know it came later.

Think of it this way (despite history and concepts of time maybe not existing yet)

Big Bang > Tellurian > Platonic concepts (gods, dragons, giants) > lesser concepts > language > magic > defined reality > modern reality > stasis

But that's a very oWoD take on the metaphysics.

>>16924617
It's natural. In the Age of Gods, Giants created magic from the raw energy in the air, they forged it to help them make tools to cultivate the world, such as making gloves from magic to help move rock, or making boots from magic to help stamp the ground for a lake. After eons of this natural magic forging the very nature of magic bonded to the Giant's, thus they have incredible natural magic. As discussed earlier, Giant's magic is also seeped into the Earth, so a human could gain a small tap of Giant Magic from being exceptionally strong.

>>16924578
A malevolent giant just gives the first person that asks a sword that kills ten men at a stroke and sits back to watch the carnage unfold.

>>16924645
>>16924617
From the last thread

>The Earth was made, somehow
>Dragons showed up, they were chaotic dicks
>God's came onto the scene, fought dragons for control
>Giant's showed up, dragons and giants fought, Giants made magic, giants tamed the world
>Gods made the other races, probably elves first, dwarves, then humans
>Giants helped out the young races till they started to get a strong foot hold
>Giants make a giant mountain, Giant's Country is made on the other side

Some of these things have changed and been reworked though.

>>16924646
>>16924645
Okay, it sounds even more like Avalon code meets Minecraft now.
I'm guessing you haven't played Avalon Code, so the idea is that you're an androgynous young boy who can alter the basic fabric of reality. Sword doesn't do quite as much damage as it should? Give it a fire attribute! Enemies resist fire? Give them the water attribute!
There was also some more profound stuff, like emotions and metaphysical concepts as 'components' that you could attach to weapons, armour, places, people, monsters. Cool stuff.

Y'know, between the modern totemic stuff, the ancientness and the ability to transform things with a thought, giants are starting to sound like a loose fantasy equivalent of Transformers.

>>16924659
To update it slightly then

Platonic Concepts begin to form
>The Earth was made, somehow
>First the Dragons showed up, they were chaotic dicks
>Then Gods came onto the scene, fought dragons for control
>Giants showed up, dragons and giants fought

Lesser concepts spawn from them. Ideas such as War and Language are born.
>Giants tame the world
>Gods made the other races, probably elves first, dwarves, then humans
>the lesser races invent "magic" from language using elements of giant wisdom, godly power and dragon lies.

The world is explored and defined, taking a single shape after years of being walked by giants and men alike.
>Giants helped out the young races till they started to get a strong foot hold
>Giants make a giant mountain, Giant's Country is made on the other side and the maps to it are lost

Giants are incredibly sexy in my opinion, maybe it's just that air of power and domination that 50-foot tall creatures give.

>>16924680
...and now I'm starting to get more ideas for that homebrew gumbo giant robot setting of mine.

>>16924680
More like Transformers are a loose sci-fi equivalent of giants.

After all if we're talking about the concept-giants in a technocratic setting from earlier, Optimus Prime actually would be a giant. Most other Transformers don't have enough pop culture recognition to Awaken as giants though.

>>16924680
>>16924714
Does anyone else like the idea of the earliest Battlemechs being built on the skeletons of ancient totally-not-Transformers?

Weve established that Dragons and Giants are contrasting sides, and deathly enemies. But how would the Gods come into the equation? Obviously the Gods possess incredible power, able to create races from scratch, but would they simply be just another type of concept manipulator like the dragons and the giants?
>Dragons control the concepts of the animate, they manipulate life and twist things, creatures of lies and deceit, greed and anger, but there control fades.
>Giants control the concepts of the inanimate, they change the stone, the water, the trees permanently, beings of sturdiness, strength, wisdom and creation, like heavy pillars their presence last for ages

So could the Gods be beings that control the concepts of life? They can bring life or death, creating races, they can bring fertility to the infertile, creativity to the uncreative, gifting inspirations and ambition. The Gods give the general the charisma to rally the soldiers, and they give thew soldiers the drive to march on.

>>16924709
I have an addendum to make.
>Dragons are chaotic dicks, and dick around with reality.
>Gods are creation engines, demiurges of reality that form the void into substance.
>Giants mold reality and give it permanent form and function.

guys, I really want to make a campaign based on this idea; unfortunately I GM only star wars game... Would it be too much to incorporate "giants" (maybe those who built centerpoint station) who forged the Force?

If they're capable of shifting their size in impossible ways and assuming multiple forms, how would they fight?
If they're benevolent towards humanity, and assuming they fight in an actual giant form, can they have howdahs on their armour, like this guy?

>>16924733
You mean like the life-size Optimus Prime statue in China?

And then there's the life-size Gundam statue in Japan...

>>16924709
By the lesser races inventing "magic" do you mean they invented the concept of manipulating magic into spells and such? I like that in a way, Giants created magic, but the lesser races created "magic"

tl;dr
>dragons are sociopathic Artists.
>Giants are aspie engineers.
>Gods are normal scientists.
That should tell you everything.

>>16924754
Well it's not that the Giants can change shapes. They, personally, can control their size to limits, but out side that they can change objects, turning stone to sword, or turning leaves to shields.

>>16924740
sure, though really I kinda like the idea of, in the time-before-time or whatever we end up calling it, gods, giants and dragons all being basically the same thing.

First there was nothing, then there was one thing, then that thing split into a bunch of core concepts that existed for a while and eventually came to call themselves dragons, giants and gods based on little mor than personality. Then as they continued to exist and continued to define themselves and create the world around them, they began to truly be separate entities or "species" and history retroactively made this true (because time didn't exist until it and other concepts were invented etc etc)

>>16924748
so basically
>Dragons are essence
>Gods are concept
>Giant's are substance.

>>16924753
That sounds like something that you could totally work with. Not sure how your players would take it, but worth a shot.

>>16924759
Dragons are the Joker, Giants are Dr Manhattan, Gods are Superman.

>>16924756
Yes exactly. I've been using the word "quintessence" mostly to refer to what giants, dragons and gods work with.

With language came spells, a lesser method of manipulating quintessence rather than genuinely channeling it.

>>16924791
Ah I see. So while Giants forged magic in it's original form, and the Gods and Dragons took to manipulating it, they all gained it's natural power. Humans and other races didn't have the sheer time to forge bonds with magic, thus they controlled the magic through spells and rituals. In a way, the small races have a basic idea of what the beginning trio can do naturally, they manipulate the concept of magic to use it as they see fit, turning the raw power into fire, or using it to charm a person, or to raise the dead.

My god /tg/...we have created the origin of magic.

>>16924767
Ah. I was just remembering that guy who talked about Leviathan being portrayed as a mass of children.

Also what would they look like? Obviously, they wouldn't all look the same, but generally speaking, would they look completely human, or more like the Colossi, which looked equal bits biologically, geologically, and architecturally formed?

>>16924815
>So while Giants forged magic in it's original form, and the Gods and Dragons took to manipulating it, they all gained it's natural power.
I figured that the Gods took on 'portfolios' in a way, for they were the First Gods, the Order from the Void. The power of the Dragon is to manipulate chaos, pure undefined energy, at it's most basic level, while Giants can control basic 'blocks' of existence.
Each of them is a facet of reality.

>>16924818
I think weve had a general understanding that Giants are human in appearances, or humans are giant in appearance. They would have beards, and hair, large noses and sunken eyes from age, they would be big, ugly humans. Could explain how the Gods created man, they made them using the Giants as a base.

Giants could look inhuman through possible magic mishap.

>>16924840
So you're saying each of them formed the first magic in their own way instead of the other two taking from what the Giant's created?

>>16924818
I'd say partially human and partially collossi.
Just turned up to eleven.
If a giant has a large nose, it takes up the middle half of his face. His eyebrows pretty much cover his eyes, and you can't see his mouth through the giant beard with birds roosting in it. The top of his head comes to a dull mountain point, with a snowy cap, his shoulders are broad as a range of mountains, and his chest is a barrel of epic proportions with rocky cliff texture on the muscles and gut. The beard is green, and gives the impression, if not the actuality, of a thicket of ivy large as a city, and even the nose has a mountainous point.

>>16924844
Y'know, everyone kinda agrees that giants are ugly, but what exactly do you mean by ugly? Is it just because they're big and you can see all their pores and zits and wrinkles and such? Do they have weird proportions and such?

I kinda like the idea that giants do look ugly but not necessarily unpleasant, more exaggerated and old, kinda like a gangly endearing caricature or a grandparent. A giant can be scary very easily when they want to, but other times they can look like your grandpa.

>>16924853
Correct. Dragons existed as entities of chaos and imagination that had gained sentience. They are like objective Daemons in this respect.
Gods are more like forces of reality. These are the First Gods, the god of Gravity, the god of Light, the god of Nuclear Force, so on.
The Giants are like the Old Ones, able to take what is and force it into useful shape, like the Webways.

>>16924864
I'd say 'Ugly' as in 'Exaggerated'.
>>16924855 here

If we put this much efforts into the giants, we're going to need more interesting fluff for the dragons than 'biglizard lol'.
Honestly, I hate to say it, but Skyrim kind of nailed what we were trying to do. They speak reality into being the way they want it. 'Combat is like debate for dragons'.

>>16924864
Yeah, thats kind of what I meant. They are like old people who have worked tirelessly their whole lives. Their noses are crooked and gnarled, covered in warts. Their brows are thick with hair, their eyes sunken under their brow and tired with age, their faces mostly covered in thick beards. Their hands would be a mess of calluses, cracked with age and work, nails chipped and dirty, thick veins bulging on the backs of their hands. Old people. But they certainly wouldn't be terrible, they would probably smell like rich dirt, old forests, the smell of age, but not of stinky old people.

>>16924878
>If we put this much efforts into the giants, we're going to need more interesting fluff for the dragons than 'biglizard lol'.
Dragons have been worked and reworked so many times, we felt little need to add to it.
>Honestly, I hate to say it, but Skyrim kind of nailed what we were trying to do. They speak reality into being the way they want it. 'Combat is like debate for dragons'.
You hit the nail on the head. Now drive it deeper, and add more 'mystic' and 'sorcerous' to it.

>>16924883
>But they certainly wouldn't be terrible, they would probably smell like rich dirt, old forests, the smell of age, but not of stinky old people.
Yup. These fellows walk through (And above) storms and hurricanes often enough they get fairly clean.
Also being living earth means you don't really have need to sweat.

>>16924878
Well we don't treat them as "lol big lizards" Dragons are the first. They were there before Gods, before Giants. They are the ones who saw the birth of the world, the chaos of existence, and they basked in it all. The God's arrived soon, and fought the Dragons for dominance, and then the Giants came, and they have been fighting since the beginning. Dragons took hold of the concept of the living, they take the words of man and beast, and twist them. A dragon could turn a well trained army into roaring barbarians with a few words, they could turn a king to their side with a simple whisper. They are natural beasts of manipulation and deceit, their very being is laced in natural twisting of living things. There control is temporary, unlike the Giant's permanence, so a Dragon could make you his slave for maybe a week, then you would snap out of it's spell.

Like this, but with a stone texture and stuff growing on it.
And at least a hundred feet tall.

And the top is literally a mountaintop.

>>16924898
I just imagined a Giant pulling a storm cloud from the sky and wrapping it around him and taking a shower in it.

>>16924907
> There control is temporary, unlike the Giant's permanence, so a Dragon could make you his slave for maybe a week, then you would snap out of it's spell.
Indeed, for before the Gods there was no permanence, all was Chaos, and an instant of control could mean an eternity of mastery over that thing, for as long is it might exist in the froth of un-named energy.
Dragons had no use for permanence till the World once was.

>>16924907
Only living things, though?
I mean, I definitely like the whole deceiver image they've got going there. But some mastery over the world at large should be expected too.
I just like the dichotomy we're coming up with- giants are taking profound, abstract concepts like love and faith and manipulating them physically and dragons take quantifiable reality and persuade it to change with just their words.

>>16924918
The Gods came onto the scene and manipulated the raw energy to bring the permanence of life and death, the eternal cycle, the Giants came after and brought the permanence of substance. Thats probably why the Dragons hate the Gods and the Giants, they ruined the decadence of chaos

>>16924934
> they ruined the decadence of chaos
That's pretty much what the Emperor was attempting to do, wasn't it?

>>16924926
Well Dragon's can manipulate inanimate things. But it's very difficult for them to do. It's as if your whole life you learned to walk on your hands and hold things with your feet. If you tried to walk on your feet and hold things with your hands, it would be a tad bit hard. Likewise, Giants find it difficult to manipulate animate things, where as they can easily change inanimate things permanently.

>>16924943
Well when I wrote it I imagined Dragons as cats. They spent their days rolling in the fields and sharpening their claws on trees, stretching out in the warm sun and just lazing about, then Gods/People showed up and made them learn to poop in a box, and not to claw the sofa, and eat this kitty food out of a bowl, and don't scratch that child, they put laws and rules up, then the Giants showed up, forced the cats to live in the house and ruined all the fun

>>16924958
Right, except in this case the Cats had as much power as they did pride and as little sympathy as they already have (which is none).

>>16924958
This seems like it should end up with the dragons endearing themselves to gods and giants, convincing them to provide them with food, treasure and pats in return for the honour of their company. Though that's basically what they do with humans.

That also reminds me of the idea I had of a Dragon Empire- when dragons are starting to feel their usual lifestyles are under threat from the crowding and independence of the 'lesser' races, and decide to band together and give this 'society' thing a shot for themselves.

>>16924980
Right, but the Dragons only do that because the Gods will sometimes listen and of course the lesser races will too. Also, they are Elder Trolls (pic related) who used troll science to make things work before the Gods came around.
However, they HATE HATE HATE the Giants, because the Giants JUST WON'T LISTEN and they JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND or something like that.
And remember, the Giants don't 'do' society. They build, they make, they interact, but they don't organize except to what degree they deem necessary.

Huh, this is really sounding more like psychopath libarts vs. aspie engineers the more I talk about it.

>>16925013
Ironic, since I'm pretty sure there's a surprisingly high level of overlap between actual psycho libtards and aspie engineers.

I imagine not all dragons would be the same, same as giants. As I said, wouldn't be surprised if there was the occasional odd couple teamup between a dragon and giant, and plenty of friendly debates. Both would have plenty of reasons to respect one another's power even if their thought processes were inherently different.

>>16925013
And that intense, burning, seething, pure LOATHING for the Giants eventually brought about the Great War[or whatever nicer names you can give it] Where Giants and Dragon's battled for years. Many Giants and Dragons died in the war, the war is what forged the majority of the world. The war ended when the oldest Giant and the oldest Dragon clashed and eventually became a massive mountain. Generally the Dragons never recovered from the war, soon becoming less of the Giant's rival and more of a pest. However, every Dragon holds that seething hatred, the current oldest dragon lives in that large mountain, waiting for the moment to call his brother's to arms and strike down the Giants

>>16925033
Most certainly.
There would be dragons intelligent enough to be 'good' dragons and align themselves with Gods or Giants.
There would be 'evil' giants who don't mind working with dragons to make some result.
I can even see a number of either side being fairly apathetic, or even some who try to learn from the other out of curiosity, jealousy, or a realization that the whole of magic is expressed in different areas of reality, or maybe they just want to become more powerful for some reason, so the dragon works with Giants and Gods to get a handle on how they do things.

>>16925033
How would the dragons look, too?
If they're creatures of primordial chaos, might I suggest the idea that they sort of phase in and out of being? Not to imply they disappear, but sometimes their bottom half will just be a swath of formless energy for a few seconds at a time.

>>16925055
Not necessarily- we all know what dragons generally look like, and I imagine they have a pretty strong handle on their physical forms, and appear exactly how they want to appear.

>>16925050
I can imagine there might be a sizeable number of giants and dragons who think the whole war thing was stupid, and dragons in particular don't want any part in some conflict that some other idiot started.

>>16925055
Only the Elder Dragons do that, bro. Just as the Elder Giants become one with the land in their slumber, the Eldest Dragons are still able to be one with the Void. In fact, many of these dragons exist, but they are outside of reality, choosing freedom over the comfiness of being able to bask in the sun on a pile of treasure. Of those eldest who remain in Reality, they are bound by the will of the Gods to a degree, and so your description is act for these dragons.

You know the style of Eastern dragons, who fly without wings? They exist in part ethereally, and their 'wings' are pure probability itself, the power of Chaos.

>>16925055
I think, to fit their nature, the Dragon's appearance would change over the ages. Perhaps before the gods they were just there, swirling voids of chaos, basking in itself. Then when permanence came, they chose a form to fit, possibly the "Eldritch horror" take, so those living terrors in the same vein as Lovecraft mythos are just really fucking old Dragons. After the war and as the ages passed they probably took on a more easy form, slowly changing into the more commonly seen Dragons of fantasy.

>>16925076
I like your style. It's the same style of the dragons from the Rift MMO.
HOLY FUCK THAT WORKS.
The Gods in Rift created the Barrier to keep the nasty dragons out so they wouldn't fuck shit up.
I mean, it isn't exactly what we've got, but it's thematically similar.

>>16925068
Which is why the Eldest Dragon possesses the power to control the hides of dragons. So even if his brothers refuse to fight, he can force them to.

>>16925076
Pic related

An Elder Dragon.

Or elder dragons are more concept than flesh, and the specifics are vague.
Like, if a dragon needs to reach something, it stretches out and becomes more serpentine, then goes back to a toadlike squat, then decides it wants to go out hunting so it flows up into a cattish shape and pounces into the air to become somewhat birdish and full on hawkish when it finds something to catch.

>>16925076
Now I'm imagining dragon fashion trends.
Prim, proper dragons who appear as the archetypall flying lizards.
Dress-down grunge dragons who look like oversized alligators with wings.
Douchebag hipster dragons who turn into three story tall murderous sparkling unicorns 'ironically'.

>>16925092
Here's an image of two Elder Dragons in combat.

>>16925092
Well can Dragons be concepts...if it was Dragons, Gods and Giants that created concepts? Though giving Dragons shape shifting powers along with their manipulation abilities is a good take on it. They should still keep a basic form, as they are now living by the concept of permanence thanks to the Gods and Giants.

>>16925113
Ah, you have a good idea. Allow me to expand it.
>Dragons are Concepts
>Gods create a space of Reality for Concepts to exist in properly.
>Giants come in and force the concepts into form and purpose.
>Dragons get pissy because their powers become lesser or fractured in the process.

>>16925113
Oh, the skin, eyes, and number of limbs probably stays roughly the same.
But the underlying shape shifting as you watch would be really weird.
Especially if it kept wiggling out from being hit with arrows or swords or the like.

The current Eldest Dragon in disguise

>>16925113
Dragons, even the most abstract ones, aren't bound to a singular concept, though. If the elder dragon says "serpentine" and it's this long, sinuous facsimile, or impression, of a physical thing, stretching across the entire sky, dominating but not really visible, more felt.
Then it's avian, and you feel the shadow of colossal wings you can't see
Then it's reptilian, and you imagine scales and slitted eyes and you shudder, but you can't imagine why.

>>16925139
Say, Isn't Nyarlathotep supposed to be some big conglomerate of existence given an ego?
I wonder what his Concept is, and what his position in Dragon/God society is?
Aside from being an ambassador to the Void, of course.

>>16925136
Well fuck now thats brilliant. The concept of Dragon changes, but the permanence of the Dragon stays the same. So it could be a normal dragon, then suddenly it starts twitching and parts of it stretch our and expand like putty.

>>16925145
>Dragons, even the most abstract ones, aren't bound to a singular concept, though.
But while in reality, they ARE. Somewhat, at least.
That's why they fought the Gods, and that's why they went to WAR against the Giants, because where the Gods just limited them the Giants went and laid down the law like Judge Dredd before he's had his morning quick-caff injection.

>>16925154
I don't like the idea of x dragon representing x concept.
I do agree that they're bound insofar as they have to pick a concept that defines them at that time, but I still feel that they should be able to change that concept at a whim, beyond a certain power level, at least.

And if dragons can shapeshift, and are consummate liars, and want to cause chaos...
Sorry to link, but don't want to wall o text explaining.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daji

>>16925162
Oh yes, certainly.
I was just making it clear that the gods are like parents who put the fence around the play pen.
The dragons cans till be whatever they want to be, but its more difficult now, and they can't just grab a whole lot of concepts and say 'MINE' like they could before Reality.

The common image if Dragons even has an idea of a changing creature. It's a reptile, a huge reptile, with wings, its solid, but had the power of flight, and it can breath fire, or sometimes other things. Dragons are shown in so many shapes and sizes and abilities.

>>16925090
>>16925112

I'm reminded of Void Dragons and the like from the Immortals Handbook.

>>16925152
It's less effort to change to a more fitting shape than it is to actually move the limb.
Hilarious awesome weirdness.

So, we got the Giants, ancient beings who brought permanence and the concept of substance to the world. Great, old men who forged the world from it's primal state

And Dragons, beasts from the beginning, the presence of the Void, of chaos. Terrifying, changing monsters who can control the minds and actions of man and beast.

Now we have to work with the Gods. What do they bring to the table?

So it looks like we've pretty heavily fleshed out the Giants and the Dragons(moderately), but what about the gods?

One of the oldest and most powerful dragons selected the archetypal flying lizard image when the Form was made.
He came to be infamous throughout the land, while the other dragons were still learning how to move with actual limbs, he was already the most well-known dragon there was, and stories about him were passed down.
Now, the traits he possessed are common knowledge, and, because that image is so strongly associated with the Concept of a dragon, weaker ones find it more comfortable to simply slip in to something like he used instead of expending the energy to fashion their own form.

Simply put, the flying lizard image is closer to the true Concept of a dragon, because it's the primary image people have in their heads.

>>16925186
> Great, old men who forged the world from it's primal state
I suddenly had a vision of the strength of the Giants having a giant sit there 'pushing' a ball of energy into the form of an atom.

This is how I see normal Dragons in this kind of setting. A mix of pure terror yet sticking to some forms of common Dragon-dom

>>16925192
Yup, that's about right.
WHere Giants fashion what tools they need for the situation at hand, Dragons fashion THEMSELVES into whatever they need at hand. They place no trust in tools because they trust nothing but themselves.
They respect and fear tools made by the Gods.
They loathe and despise tools and artifacts made by the Giants.
They really don't give a fuck about tools made by lesser creatures, which is often the downfall of less intelligent dragons.

>>16925190
Self-quoting, but that also gives me an idea for the place of the lesser races- they can shape concepts.
That was the gift the Gods gave them.
So, in their collective, unconscious way, they determine the very stuff that dragons morph themselves around and giants forge into objects

>>16925192
>>16925197
"The band of knight had traveled for seven nights in search of the dragon that had been terrorizing the countryside for ages. They had looked far and wide for the beast, searching for it's home. They had finally found it, a giant cave in the side of a mountain. The knights cautiously made their way into the wet darkness to face the monster that laid within. Their training would never prepare themselves for what they would face. They expected the beast they saw, a large reptile with large wings, razor sharp teeth and claws, and a swinging tail. They were met with that sight, but it wouldn't last, as the beast's body would shutter and peel open like a flesh and scale covered flower, rows a monstrous teeth covering each "petal", hissing tongues, lashing into the air as the monster lowered onto the cavern floor and rushed at the knights. This nightmare would be the last the knights would see that day."

/tg/ sometimes I am so damned proud of you.

This is one of those times.

>>16925192
It's a regular dragon until it thinks 'TEETH' *really* hard.

I think the basis of the Gods is they have the gift, the concept of life. They gave life to the chaotic new world. They gave the song on the wind, the laughter on the water, the rolling of the hills, they made the races, they made the plants and the rainbows. They give life and death, they make fertile the infertile, they sprout creativity into the empty. They gave the empty world a raw, fresh coating that the Giants would later cultivate and tame. Then they would give life to the world in animate form, bringing forth the races and creatures of the world.

>>16925232
Sortof yeah.
More than that, they made life POSSIBLE. They created a space in the void where things could exist in perpetuity, where things were not threatened by the terrific storms of energy within the Void.

>>16925232
>>16925240
The Gods are the Fundament. The First Gods would be better called Demiurges. The later Gods of worship and faith are a different breed entirely, and they are more likely to have once been dragons who attained their position through cunning, guile, power or pact. The First Gods remain, and it is only if or when they leave that the world will end.

>>16925240
So the Gods provided shelter to the seeds of life. Life probably existed in a way before the Gods, but the Dragons made it impossible to truly exist, the Gods came around and brought permanence to the chaos, allowing life to grow with their help.

The Giants are huge old people, the Dragons are shapeshifting, mainly lizard like beasts, so should the Gods be just a presence, or every changing young people?

>>16925247
The Gods are the glue thats holds Reality together. If they left, the world would be cast back to the raw force of chaos, the Dragons would be free from permanence, the Giant's substance would crumble. So they got a lot on their shoulders.

>>16925250
You'll have to differentiate a little.
The Dragons and Giants are species with a fairly broad spectrum of natures and existences, but the Gods are different.
YOu have the Demiurge, who make things work. You have the Overgods, who manage reality and watch out for tears in the fabric of their local reality (think Lady of Pain), and then you have regular gods, who are little more than obstructive bureaucrats who work to prevent anyone from growing so powerful and not under control so as to cause the Overgods any issues.
It's safe to say that the Vecna Ascendancy Incident got a LOT of gods surreptitiously fired and replaced with a fresh face, same name.

So here's a question.
What happens when a man goes to a giant...
And asks to become a tool?
"I wish to become the hero of my people. A powerful sword or invincible armor may fail or be stolen, a crown may be lost. Only a legend is immortal. I ask to be made a legend."

...Or is this more in the realm of dragons?
Speaking of which, the giants have giantland... Did the dragons similarly set aside a realm of fluid concepts and chaos for themselves? Perhaps sealed beneath the earth, a place where stone runs as water, fire stands like stone, and water floats like air?

>>16925272
Ah, so the God's are kind of a government of reality. Again I bring up the appearance. I think a young look is fitting, since the God's brought the possibility of life and the growth of it. Life and youth go hand and hand, so it would be understandable that the bringers of the concept of life would be young and lively.

>>16925274
>Did the dragons similarly set aside a realm of fluid concepts and chaos for themselves?
Nah, not really. Dragons are too individualistic for such an endeavor, and the Dragon King can only call them them to action, not to obedience (That only works on non dragons).
Such a place exists wherever the Veil is thin. Interestingly, there are a few dragons who generate a 'small' income of treasures and favors by making pacts with Giants to craft such 'resorts' of low-density reality.

>>16925283
Well, the First Gods wouldn't have much in the way of Appearance, or if they did I'd ask you to think in the terms of literal Biblical Angels. Function before form.

The Overgods are like Absolute Elementals of their planes. The plane of fire has an overgod whose vestments and face and other things are all things that represent Fire and all things tangent to it.
The regular Gods are as we already know them.

I'm leaving this fairly open for DM freedom.

>>16925274
The Giant would take a keen interest in the man for his dedication to his people, but I don't think a Giant would crush a man into a weapon. He would probably figure another way to help, to forge an item, armor or weapon to take the man's place like "I have forged a sword of heroes for you, those of your lineage will be bound to this sword, and as long as one of your bloodline wields it your people will be forever safe from threats."

As for dragons I think we all kind of agree that Dragons exist in both the mortal and Giant lands. They lord over the human lands with their powers, easily controlling the small races, while in the Giant's Country they are treated as pests, infesting caves near Giant homes and being chased out thusly.

>>16925274
>"I wish to become the hero of my people. A powerful sword or invincible armor may fail or be stolen, a crown may be lost. Only a legend is immortal. I ask to be made a legend."
The giant will ask for his gloves and his cloak, and craft them together with the words of a poet and the authority of a king to create a Cape of Legends, which will carry within itself a history of his deeds to be passed down for eternity.

>>16925309
A cape could still be stolen.

It seems to me more that the man is asking to become a giant. I'm not sure if the giant could help him.

>>16925317
More than that, ever heard of the Cauldron of Plenty? A Giantess labored to create a cooking implement to create any meal desired, of any portion needed.

Can you imagine eating a meal made by Giants? They have all the time in the world to raise the most succulent pigs in the world, the most relaxed and fat cows. Stacks of thick, juicy beef, towering high into the heavens, strips of fat bacon, crispy miles of pork. The sweetest of pies and cakes, finely aged wines and perfectly brewed beers. They have all the time in the world to work on the purest of flavors.

>>16925320
>A cape could still be stolen.
That's not the point. The Cape would be indestructible, it's words clear and beautiful and their inspiration and power true to all who read it.
The man who stole it would most likely end up returning it in respect, or end up passing on the legend contained within the Cape.

Well I gotta run to bed, im really tired. When I wake up I may open a new Giant thread if anyone would like to talk about this more, it's really exciting to rethink such old, heavily rooted concepts.

>>16925333
I've been up for about 24 hours now, because I'm sick but can't sleep because I'm sick.
Night. I'll see you later.

>>16925326
No, I think you miss the point, a cape is a physical thing.
A legend is not.

>>16925326
Isn't it the entire point? The man anon proposed wants to be shaped by giants because he fears any mere item being stolen.

Though credit where it's due: if you're proposing a kind of "anyone who steals the cape becomes the hero" thing that might work too.

>>16925352
>Though credit where it's due: if you're proposing a kind of "anyone who steals the cape becomes the hero" thing that might work too.
Uh, no, I'm implying that anyone who steals the cape will still spread the legend. That's why I included the concept of the poet and the concept of the king into it's auto transcribed words.

>>16925352
Like people who kill Lucius the Eternal. Only for good. And a cape.

I'd still like to explore the idea of a man asking to be molded into a legend though. Objects go against his request.

>>16925355
Then nevermind. Your idea does miss the point.

>>16925360
Oh well. I gave it a shot.
I figured "What is a legend? It is a story of past deeds that lasts into time immemorial because everyone knows it. How can they know it? By reading it. Why would they read it? Because the very words and the cape itself would be infused with unquestionable authority and it's beauty would inspire people to remember and spread the tale."

I don't really have that many giant pictures

So I guess I'll just post a dragon

>>16925371
Huh. I was going to guess that thing was a Giant artifact, but I suppose it makes more sense if it was a dragon with a more obscure form. Perhaps it is bound tot he child by oath and this is the form it was told to take?

>>16925369
That would work pretty well if the man was asking to become a legend because his motivation was immortality.

But he's doing it to become a hero that can protect his village and his people, so any item that can be stolen is a bad thing. His cape can spread his legend far and wide, and be whisked away to China to tell of his Glory there, but it doesn't do his village much good.

Those few modern mortals who stumble into giant country by one of the old roads, gates or ley lines (also known, of course, as dragon lines) would be in for a strange life.

>>16925376
Ohhhh!
Derp.
In that case his gloves and his plow are forged together with the strength a hundred men and the rage fueled by the love for one's own.
With his new sword he strikes with the justice of self-defense and purity of love.
In his gloves is his strength to fight, to be passed down for the times when the Sword of GIant's Compassion must be wielded again, for no mere man can wield such a blade.

Better?

>>16925389
> (also known, of course, as dragon lines)
I want to exploit this but I can't I've done too much already.

>>16925390
Still items that could theoretically be stolen (especially by a canny enough D&D party. They can steal anything and many put Prometheus himself to shame on a good day).

Though it's not like I have any better ideas how to honour such a request.

Honestly I still think he's basically asking to be turned into a giant and again I'm not sure if this man can even be helped.

>>16925395
Ditto but I figured I'd throw it out there and someone else would roll with it.

>>16925390
Now it's even easier to lose.
I was suggesting the idea because it's an interesting moral quandary.
Is it just to shape a man into something else, even if he's willing to go along with it? Can a giant even stick on more 'Courage' to what's already there, if they can punch around concepts?
Dragons, of course, might do it for shits and giggles, or even the reverse, or just be playing the man for a fool with some kind of dumbo feather bit.
As long as the hero wasn't coming after them...
Heck, I can see dragons dicking with each other by using their wiles to send heroes after each other.
Or even just giftwrapping people by telling them all they need to take down a dragon is this (perfectly ordinary) arrow and their own bravery.

>>16925423
>Now it's even easier to lose.
>I was suggesting the idea because it's an interesting moral quandary.
Ah, I see. I think, generally, Giants don't go fleshcrafting not because they can't or won't, but because it's less neat and does nto usually carry the same long-term benefits to the beneficiaries.

In this case it would be as simple as the giant grabbing the man lightly by the head, and 'pulling' until he was about 14 feet tall and proportional. Boom.

Oooh oooh okay here's the start of an idea. Work with me here 'cause I think I just kicked this whole quandary's ass.

So giants are very connected to the land they walk. They fall asleep and turn into mountains, their footprints create lakes and so on, and a man can become a giant if his legend grows (Finn MacCool etc)

So this man... he goes to the giant and asks
>"I wish to become the hero of my people. A powerful sword or invincible armor may fail or be stolen, a crown may be lost. Only a legend is immortal. I ask to be made a legend."

After hearing his final words on the matter, and being touched by the man's conviction and love for his people, the giant smiles and complies.

...

Years later the village has grown into a mighty city. Trade routes previously thought impossible have opened up and his people prosper like never before.

The man's last words?

"I am a river to my people."

I was thinking- we should have secondary races of giants and dragons that primarily inhabit the mortal plane and generally fit into the more normative forms.

Giants that are only twelve to sixteen feet high, dragons that are made of flesh and blood and cling to their form.

Call them the offspring of their more enigmatic namesakes and the mortal races.

Not that they're all just brutes or giant lizards. You have dragons running banks and masterminding the fall of nations, and you have frost giants who rule or once ruled advanced empires that may have fallen or create magitech wonders.

They still have the echoes of their parents true nature, only less so.

>>16925492
Rather have the results of meddling gone bad.
Militaristic, strength obsessed, and assholish ogres from the descendants of >>16925431
And people that asked for the power of dragons, and to the dragon's surprise (or not) got the strength and size and more importantly the flair for chaos.

Late to this thread but I like the suggestions that Giants, Gods and Dragons were once one and the same.

I think the gods should come about after the Giants.

The dragons were the beings that embraced the chaos. It was all they ever wanted or desired, The nothing of what came before.

Then came the giants. They crafted the world from the raw substances of the universe, shaped the planets and the stars, the mountains and seas. They crafted tools, and concepts and magic. They built and created but were not interested in ruling.

The gods came last, and took the Giants creations for themselves. The giant once it had made the earth, or the wind, or love or war had little time for it. They were too busy creating new things. So the gods took it on themselves to rule the things the giants made. They had great power within their chosen force but no influence beyond.

The war between the 3 has never ended. The dragons were chained in physical form by the giants, separated from chaos they seek only it's return. The god fearful of their power forced the giants into retreat into Giant Country, they were unable to beat them but the days of raw creation have been replaced with law and order under the rule of the gods, The giants content to build small things in piece and keep the dragons chained. And in turn the Dragons seek to manipulate and deceive the gods and their servants to undo the Giants work and secure their release.

lunch bump

also is this a giant, a dragon or a god?

>>16926575
A giant dragon god.

A dragon god of giants.

A giant of dragon gods

A god of giant dragons

A giant dragon of god


etc. etc.

>>16926575
It's a really pissed off whale.

I've been wanting to work traditional giants into my campaign setting, but I've run into some difficulty making them fit. I've already got some giant races: the trolls are the standard big, dumb bruisers, ogres are like trolls but innately magical, scheming and greedy, and wyrds are more fey-like, highly magical and evil, using their powers to control others and further their own ends. In short, I already have oversized races that fit the bruiser and intelligent giant archetypes.

What I was thinking of doing is making them elemental creatures. The plan was to have them coexist alongside the djinn on the elemental plane, as the main soldiers in their armies. The djinn would be the nobles, rulers, and mages, while the giants would be the warriors (of course some prominent giants could rise to power themselves). The elementals themselves would still be intelligent, but more feral and not within the civilized armies on the plane.

Thoughts on this method of incorporating giants? Bumpan great thread.

>>16928305
If Djinni and Giants are seperate species, then why do the Giants obey them?

>>16928427

Could be any number of reasons. Maybe the were enslaved via coercion or magic. Through this, they work of their servitude through military service, or obey out of fear of punishment

Maybe they see following the djinni to war as a means to a destructive end, such as weakening the political hold of the strongest djinni lords so they can usurp their power. Maybe they're just thick enough to be led around, and like smashin'.

Haven't decided yet is what I'm saying, still toying with the idea. But any of those ideas are possibilities. Thanks for the brainstorm fuel.

>>16928560
>>16928305
Oh well, they're your giants in your own setting.

>>16928737

Well is it a bad idea? I'm not trying to shoot down the feedback, I'm just working with it to come up with a solution. If the plot hole is still that crippling, I'll come up with something else.

>>16929318
No no, not at all. what I mean is that these threads have been working on a general fluff for Giants, Dragons and Gods as archetypes, not on how to include them into other settings.

Remember, you are the GM, what you say goes, and if you want to incorporate ideas from here, go for it, but don't try to add them in whole cloth, as that induces the crippling plot hole you mentioned.

>>16929350

Hm, good point. Fair enough.

How about dragons being less malevolent and more purely chaotical and unpredictable AND unable to predict?
So when a man asks Giant and a Dragon Giant will give him what he truly needs, and Dragon will give him exactly what he asks, and later that may or may not harm him?

>>16929751
I don't think the idea ever was to make dragons 'evil'. Just temperamental, whimsical, and somewhat sociopathic.

>>16929766
>Just temperamental, whimsical, and somewhat sociopathic.
While the giants are predictable, stubborn, and not very empathetic.
Ask a dragon for a sword, and you put your own life and fate at risk.
Ask a giant for a sword, and he may decide to say 'fuck you, here's a magic plow.'

>>16929777
>Ask a giant for a sword, and he may decide to say 'fuck you, here's a magic plow.'
>use magic plow to farm crops
>magically large profit
> purchase sword

>>16929802
Exactly!
Giants use the long term view of things, and if they deide to help you in the first place it means they've decided to care about your well being and those close to you.
So instead of a sword that would be without purpose after the battle, he gives him a magic plow that would continue to have meaning and purpose before, during, and after.
Giants make things to last, and they hate the idea of making something that would only be effective for just a 'moment' in their eyes.

Now Dragons, they are all about immediate solutions for immediate problems.

>>16929842
>Why do you want this sword?
>To kill the ogre that's terrorising my village.
>Adventurer gets sword that does 10d8 damage but disintegrates after the killing blow blow in a puff of flame, badly burning him.

>>16929777
I meant something like this.
Also, bringing Gods into equation.
The kingdom is starving after several disastrous harvest seasons
a god will turn soil fertile, but to keep it like that he wants worship.
A Giant will craft potent tools, with which through hard work humans in the kingdom will prosper. But these tools will work only if there's desperate need, and the lazier people in the kingdom become, the harder it is to distinguish them from normal tools.
A Dragon will forge heroic spirit in that man, and he will either slay the greedy ineffectual king and distribute his food stocks around the population, or will take a sword and conquer neighboring kingdom. Or he will become the greatest merchant world ever knew, and will form a guild that de-facto will rule the entire kingdom. Dragon doesn't knows, nor cares.

>>16929916
>a god will turn soil fertile, but to keep it like that he wants worship.
Good point there. Wheras dragons alter reality and giants mold reality, Gods can simply reprogram reality.
>Infertile soil? Let me just change (x)Soil=0 to (x)Soil=1.
Of course, only the Overgods have admin privileges. The lesser gods just each get a set of passwords for their domains.

>>16929942
The giants pull condensation and nutrients from other areas and punch it into the soil.
And the dragons ask it really nicely if it doesn't want to become fertile, please.

>>16929942
>domains
>Domain name
Oh lawdy, does that mean some god has an astral domain that looks like a 90's webpage?

Also, about "Blue God needs prayer badly" situation.
Not anywhere Gods have complete control. Sure, their power is tremendous, but not absolute. Only in their original place of birth - "sanctuary" they may do as they please. What gives God power over something is human prayer and worship.
So, gods are more of sentient programs, that lie in foundation of reality, than programmers.

>>16930045
Gods are like algorithms managing server hubs
Giants are like admins
Dragons are like 1337 script kiddies.

>>16930045
>So, gods are more of sentient programs, that lie in foundation of reality, than programmers.let's leave that to the regular Gods, since any damn mortal can pull a Vecna and be accepted into the pantheon of celestial bureaucracy.
The Planar Gods are more like AI's, who are both part of the system and programmers of the system.
The True Gods, the Demiurges, are the actual programmers of reality who take object functions and define variables.

>>16929966
i wanted to outline in >>16929916 that dragons are more keen in dealing with humans, than nature.
And Gods are more prone to just wizarding the reality.

>>16930074
>Gods are like algorithms managing server hubs
Some are, yeah.
>Giants are like admins
>Dragons are like 1337 script kiddies.
Giants and Dragons work differently from Gods, as they were already there before the Gods came.
>>16930085
>dragons are more keen in dealing with humans, than nature. And Gods are more prone to just wizarding the reality.
Yup.

>>16930085
Oh, that's definitely true. Living beings are generally easier to persuade with words alone than stones and trees.
Just pointing out that dragons can do those too, in a pinch.

Basically Dragons can persuade you so hard, you become Player Character.

The fighting between the Dragons and the Gods was more like a programmer 'fighting' bugs in the code that crop up out of nowhere. Neither side can do anything to the other directly, but they can disrupt each other's works.

>>16930184

Better yet, the Dragons ARE "bugs in the code". All the leftover abstracts and chaotic detritus cast aside and shaved off a finely forged Concept become Dragons.

>>16930796
I like that.
So we've got Elder Dragons who are bits of chaos and concept with an Ego that exist both outside and inside Reality, and their progeny, whom are bugs in the code of varying power.

>>16930831
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD4H-E0UT0Q
This is what it's like to be the plaything of a Dragon.