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  • File: 1332895920.png-(83 KB, 400x241, Rpg_logo.png)
    83 KB The Legend of Zelda RPG Second Edition: Thread #3 TCN 03/27/12(Tue)20:52 No.18481896  
    First Thread: http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/18303811
    Previous Thread: http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/18384531/
    Google Document (Work in Progress but fairly up-to-date): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MfxgWI4fkqE9j1EEy8fOrglrcmGsZ9Z2iqXVVD6bwZ4/edit

    >The story so far
    The Legend of Zelda RPG project began as an idea by Sir Scribe in mid-2011 and received a sizeable amount of attention from the /tg/ community in the form of crunch, ideas, and art from talented drawfags. Interest in the project seemed to wane and all but died out in late August of the same year.

    The revival of the project begain in early March of this year and has made a good deal of progress, aiming to streamline and improve the ideas of the previous version. Many of the concepts are in the process of being hammered out.

    If you’re interested in the project, check the previous threads to get a better idea of the direction being taken. All critique, new ideas, fluff, crunch, and art are highly welcome and appreciated.
    >> Anonymous 03/27/12(Tue)20:54 No.18481918
    I'm always happy that you guys are still using my logos, even if I'm not actively working in the project anymore. :)
    >> TCN 03/27/12(Tue)20:57 No.18481936
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    One of the new changes is the revision of the dice system. The older project used a dice pool mechanic with Risk-style comparison that ended up scaling poorly and took little advantage of degrees of success. The current dice system is meant to be simpler and easier to scale:
    >Roll 3d6.
    >Take the median die (if you roll a 3, 4, and 5, you use the 4).
    >Add the appropriate Skill and Virtue levels to the kept die.
    >Compare to the target number.

    Being a Zelda RPG, aquiring new tools, spells and weapons is intended to be an important part of the game. Items avaliable to the player characters and environmental features placed by the GM have various “tags” that describe their function and capabilities. An item like a sword or axe may have the Edged tag, but something like Skyward Sword’s Beetle may have the Edged, Remote, Flying and Carrying tags.

    Giving different items with shared effects is meant to allow for ease of designing “lock-and-key” type challenges, where creative use of avaliable tools is required to succeed. The GM can review what items the characters have, and pull from a list of obstacles, hazards, and enemies that respond to the effects of those items.

    The LoZ RPG is intended to be setting-independent, compatable with any possible world, setting, or time period. The history, geography, and avaliable races are up to the discretion of the players.
    >> Character summary TCN 03/27/12(Tue)20:58 No.18481949
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    Race: Affects your starting Attributes and grants unique abilities. Races do not impact virtues or skills, allowing for less-restrained character concepts.

    Life, Stamina, and Magic: Statistics that are measured in Hearts or Bars with 4 points each. Life is used for hit points, Stamina is used to perform combat techniques and athletic maneuvers, and Magic is used to cast spells and fuel magic items. These are customizable at chargen and improved later through aquiring Containers during the game.

    Attributes: The physical characteristics of your character. Attributes have no effect on your dice rolls, but alter the ways you affect or can be affected by external forces. Your race determines your starting attributes, and they can be adjusted by certain items.
    >Size: How big you are.
    >Strength: Carrying strength, denotes how much weight you can push, lift, or throw.
    >Weight: How heavy or light your character is. Affects buoyancy and resistance to being moved by external forces.
    >Speed: How fast you can move, specifically in combat. Actual movement varies depending upon the actions taken. Jumping distances and alternate movement types (crawling, swimming, climbing) involve this Attribute.

    Certain items will boost or reduce these attributes. Iron Boots, for example, increase your Weight to 4, allowing you to walk against gusts of wind or an underwater current. Certain races already have these bonuses built in. Gorons naturally have Weight 4, so they can already do what lighter creatures need Iron Boots to do. However, they would need an item that reduces their Weight if they want to cross deep water without sinking like a stone.
    >> Character summary, continued TCN 03/27/12(Tue)21:01 No.18481966
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    Skills: Your character’s proficiency with certain tasks. You add your Skill level when using an action that requires that skill. Skill levels go from 0 to 5. Techniques and Talents may have Skill requirements that must be met before they can be used.
    The current skill list includes: Melee, Heavy, Hand-to-Hand, Ranged, Block, Dodge, Magic, Observation, Stealth, Music, Sway, Knowledge, and Riding/Piloting.

    Virtues: Courage, Power and Wisdom; Go from 0-5. They act as contextual modifiers; when using a Skill in a way (or with a spell, item, or weapon) that aligns with a certain Virtue, you add that Virtue’s level to your die roll. (Using a bow lets you add your Ranged skill level and Wisdom virtue level to your die roll, but throwing a heavy object uses your Ranged skill level and your Power virtue level.)

    >Courage is related to decisive action and adaptability. Link is an example of a Courage-based character. Swords, shields, and most utility spells are related to Courage.
    >Power is related to overwhelming force. Ganondorf is an example of a Power-based character. Hammers, heavy armor, and most offensive spells are related to Power.
    >Wisdom is related to subtle manipulation and careful tactics. Zelda and Sheik are both examples of Wisdom-based characters. Bows, daggers and most defensive spells are related to Wisdom.
    >> Combat basics TCN 03/27/12(Tue)21:06 No.18482001
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    Techniques, Talents, and most Spells are feats and powers avaliable to characters to choose from, and are purchaseable with Experience Points. Techniques and spells include new combat maneuvers (spin attack, back slice, and various combat spells). Talents are passive bonuses that alter your character or your techniques. Improved racial abilities (like the Zora’s electric sheild) are also purchased with XP. Background edges or perks (like owning a mount, having a certain standing in society) could be bought with XP at character creation as well.

    In a combat or otherwise dangerous situation, each player has 3 Actions they can use in each round. They can use these actions on their turn, or instead react to enemy actions outside of their turn. Example reactions include
    >Block: Uses the Block skill. “Stance” effect. Keep blocking and until you’re interrupted or take a new action.
    >Dodge: Uses the Dodge skill “stance” effect. Keep dodging until you’re interrupted or take new action. You can move
    >Parry: Uses the Block skill. Use a shield or weapon to deflect an attack. The enemy loses their next chance to react.
    >Interrupting Attack: Attack at the same time as an enemy (or use an item, spell or ability; such as throwing a bomb into the mouth of a Dodongo). Opposed attack rolls, winner hits.

    The intent of this system is to allow for a dynamic combat system that allows for players to react creatively to changing situations. The nitty-gritty of the combat system is explored in more detail in the Google Document and previous threads.
    >> TCN 03/27/12(Tue)21:20 No.18482123
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    >Current topics:
    Tag definitions: what sorts of tags should be made? What names best describe their effects?

    Skill/Virtue/Experience point rewards: Should these advancements points be awarded based on the phases or arcs most Zelda titles follow?

    Combat actions and racial abilities: What sorts of typical actions should combatants be able to take? Should there be a standard Tackle ability to base other powers off of, like the Pegasus Boot's charge and the Goron's roll? What sort of skill would it use? Should players be able to alternate between Blocking and Dodging without taking a new action?

    Stamina and Magic costs and regeneration: Should Stamina points and/or Magic points recharge slightly after each round? Is it simpler to have them remain static resources that must be replenished with potions and rest?

    Background Edges/Perks: Should starting perks use the same XP as techniques and talents? Should races with fewer abilities get more perks (or starting XP) than those with more abilities? Would "bad" edges be avaliable that give XP for being taken?
    >> Anonymous 03/27/12(Tue)21:48 No.18482316
    I don't play this, but bumping for casual interest.
    >> Anonymous 03/27/12(Tue)21:59 No.18482420
    didn't think people were still interested in this
    >> Anonymous 03/27/12(Tue)22:16 No.18482587
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    >> Anonymous 03/27/12(Tue)22:19 No.18482606
    People are still interested. What killed the last project was that people stopped archiving the fucking threads out of either laziness or some newfag fear of the mysteries of suptg.
    >> Anonymous 03/27/12(Tue)22:26 No.18482678
    Do you have any monsters down yet? I'd love to playtest this with my nephews. They really liked Windwaker.
    >> Ekoi !PpcsYfrVrw 03/27/12(Tue)22:35 No.18482770
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    Sheetfag from LoZRPG 1e here, do we have enough of 2e settled to where a sheet can/needs to be made?
    >> TCN 03/27/12(Tue)22:36 No.18482788
    There are a couple monsters in the last thread; the formatting for statblocks still needs work, but they hopefully get the message across.

    (Land) Octorok
    Life 1 - Init. +0 - Base Defense +0
    Small size - Strength 2 - Weight 2 - Speed 5
    Spit Rock • Ranged 5/10
    -Attack +1, 1H damage.

    Deku Baba [Plant]
    Life 2 - Init. +0
    Medium size - Strength 2 - Weight 2 - Speed 0
    Bite • Melee, Reach 2
    -Attack +1, 1H damage.
    Dodge +1, Block +1
    -Rooted: The Deku Baba cannot move from it's space. Knockback attacks stun it instead of pushing it.
    -[Edged] Thin Stem: Edged attacks against the Deku Baba when it's unable to react instantly destroy it.
    -[Fire] Flammable: The Deku Baba takes 1H of damage per turn from burning instead of 1/2H.

    Life 1/2 - Init. +1 - Base Defense -1
    Tiny size - Strength 1 - Weight 1 - Speed (Fly 6)
    Bite (1 Action) • Melee
    -Attack +1, 1/2H damage.
    Dodge +2 - Stealth +1
    Swoop (2 Actions): The Keese flies it's speed and Bites at any point during the movement.
    -[Wind] If hit by a Wind attack while airborne, the Keese becomes (Dazed? Loses a turn basically.)

    Bokoblin [Goblin]
    Life 3 - Init. +1 - Base Defense -1
    Medium size - Strength 3 - Weight 3 - Speed 6
    Boko Stick (1 Action) • Melee
    -Attack +2, 1H damage.
    Dodge +1 - Block +2 - Stealth +1
    >> TCN 03/27/12(Tue)22:49 No.18482927
    I think so. What we'd need is
    -Name, sex, age and race
    -Life, Stamina, and Magic meters (first one in hearts, the other two in bars)
    -Attributes: Size, Strength, Weight and Speed
    -Virtues: Courage, Wisdom and Power (Triforce to write numbers in.
    -Skill List: a space to note levels.
    -Skill+Virtue workspace for things like commonly-used attacks.
    -Base Defense (and probably block and dodge) spaces.
    -Inventory, with space to note tags or properties of items or the contents of bottles.
    -Rupee, Experience Point, Skill Point and Virtue Point spaces
    -Technique/Spell/Song (active abilities) listing and space for some notes.
    -Talent/Racial trait space (passive benefits)
    -Character notes/portrait and quest objective space.

    I wouldn't commit too much just yet, since things may change as we go.

    Also, as someone who did one of the earlier drafts of the character sheet, I'd love to make different versions for different "generations" (8/16 bit Zelda, OoT/TP/SS menu style, WW stylized) when things settle.
    >> Anonymous 03/27/12(Tue)22:50 No.18482933
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    Hey, sheetfag guy: What program do you use to make those? I am making a game and would like to get a sheet that looks that good.... (pic not related)
    >> TCN 03/27/12(Tue)23:02 No.18483061
    Back when I did a sheet, I just used PowerPoint.
    >> Ekoi !PpcsYfrVrw 03/27/12(Tue)23:05 No.18483095
    I'll prolly hold off until another rough-draft is created, in that case.

    And I'd prolly have no issue making special editions after the printer-friendly version is complete.

    I use photoshop, mainly. Bit of a starving artist so if you'd like to discuss business I could leave my email for you.(I'm pretty cheap labor too)
    >> Anonymous 03/27/12(Tue)23:13 No.18483155
    yes, please do. I will get in touch with you soon-ish,
    >> Anonymous 03/27/12(Tue)23:14 No.18483164
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    Holy hell, I love this. I love the mechanics, I love how few monsters this requires. I mean...the universe for this game is relatively small and that's WONDERFUL. It's like a tabletopRPG/boardgame hybrid.

    This is such a good idea, you don't even understand. Imagine how fun this would be. Aside from that, imagine how easy it would be to market. THIS IS AMAZING!
    >> Ekoi !PpcsYfrVrw 03/27/12(Tue)23:16 No.18483180
    Here you are good sir.
    >> TCN 03/27/12(Tue)23:38 No.18483427
    Glad to hear you're interested! The broad-strokes approach to stats and abilities is hopefully an appealing decision.

    On the topic of broad strokes, it was suggested in the previous thread to mark character and plot advancement with "phases" or "arcs" that Zelda titles tend to follow (they all follow the Hero's Journey formula to some extent). What was proposed last time was:

    >1.Call to adventure: Short phase, introductions and world establishing, often 1 dungeon. Characters don't leave far from home (Great Deku Tree, Forsaken Fortress, Hyrule Castle)
    >2. First Trials: The first few dungeons. The world gradually opens up here. (getting the pendants/spiritual stones)
    >3. Shit Gets Real: The general mid-game turning point or plot twist. Master Sword shows up around this point. Most of the world is open now and warping is more common (Forest Temple through Water Temple, getting the Sacred Flames)
    >4. Final stretch: The last batch of dungeons or challenges. Relatively short, marked by a increase in enemy difficulty. Whole world is open. (Shadow and Spirit Temples, Triforce shards)
    >5. Endgame: Assault on the BBEG's lair. Everything gets nastier. Climax and resolution. (Ganon's Tower, the Moon)
    >> Squish-e !!tYsOb/pTq3j 03/27/12(Tue)23:39 No.18483433
    I have a suggestion:
    Do away with the concept of experience points all together. Make the ability score improving mechanic the same as the max health, stamina, and magic mechanic.

    i.e. You improve skills through the use of Skill Containers, which are either acquired based on random drop relevant to the difficulty of the monster killed, or by dropping from specific enemies.

    I think this would be more true to the LoZ games, AND create a much more unique character advancement style. At the same time, it makes it infinitely easier to both understand as a player, and run as a GM. No keeping track of experience, no setting the amount of monsters to make sure the PC's are at a certain level at a certain place. Just simple, effective, and fun.
    >> TCN 03/27/12(Tue)23:51 No.18483588
    The phases aren't intended to be hard rules, but rather guidelines that could be ignored or adhered to as the GM desires. Each phase could assume that the GM distributes a certain number of skill points in each phase. Virtue points would be rewards for major quests or challenges.

    The phases could also be used as a baseline for measuring monster difficulty. The current range of monsters is;
    >Minimal Threat: Tiny enemies, mooks, or minions that pose no serious danger by themselves. Often come in groups. (Keese, Rope, Miniblins, Octorok, Zol, Stalkin/Stalchild, Deku Baba)
    >Low threat: More capable than minimal threat monsters. Slightly more health and begin to show unusual defenses. (Bokoblin, Peahat, Armos Statue, ChuChu, Hylian soldier, Bari, jumping Stalfos)
    >Moderate threat: The largest category. Monsters begin to have more elaborate defenses and weaknesses. Dangerous "duelist" type monsters start to show up here. Often make good minibosses for beggining characters. (Stalfos knight, Lizalfos, Moblin, Dodongo, ReDead)
    >High threat: Dole out and take even more damage than usual. May have more than 3 actions. (Mothula, Darknut, Iron Knuckle, Hinox, Gibdo, giant Stalfos, Wizrobe)
    >Extreme threat: Highly powerful monsters, usually powered-up versions of other monsters. Rarely fought outside of miniboss battles, but not quite tricky enough to be bosses themselves (Mighty Darknut, Grand Wizrobe, Stalmaster, Magmanos, Dead Hand).

    The skill level scaling of the PC's would generally follow the stats of the monsters. High and Extreme threat monsters would still be highly challenging and dangerous for endgame characters, but average threat monsters would become minor obstacles at that stage.
    >> Anonymous 03/27/12(Tue)23:54 No.18483622
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    also, we need monster drop charts
    thousands of them
    >> Squish-e !!tYsOb/pTq3j 03/27/12(Tue)23:59 No.18483690
    Yes, flat scaling for all monster types is no fun when dice rolls are involved. No one gets excited over new items and attack bonuses when it'll just make everything take that much longer to kill.
    >> TCN 03/28/12(Wed)00:23 No.18484007
    Part of the reason that Skills and Virtues use points is that each level of a Skill or Virtue is more expensive to upgrade than the last (1 point for level 1, 2 points for level 1 to level 2, etc). This is meant to provide a slight measure of deterrence against front-loading one skill at the expense of all others, since player skill level could quickly outpace the skills of the monsters (especially with a cap of 5). Random skill drops are also not wise for the same reason.

    Also to consider is that since Attributes are so broad, skills, virtues and talents/techniques are the main sources of character customization. Specialization and spend their rewards is easier to manage with points out-of game.

    Talents and techniques could be awarded like D&D feats; since most of them are already based on skill requirements, but Skills and Virtues should probably stick with points.

    Not sure there would need to be that many drop charts; a simple 1d6 roll (hearts, stamina/magic, rupees, ammo) would suffice. Each grade of monster could have improve the result (low threat monsters drop 5 rupees, average threat monsters drop 20, etc).
    >> Anonymous 03/28/12(Wed)00:30 No.18484119
    It lives! Uncontained Expanding Homebrew!

    Perhaps we could borrow from the second Link game, and have a random roll for every time the party travels a certain distance, with modifiers for events like setting up camp, firepits, stationing guards, whether the land is cursed...

    The idea of the party randomly being attacking in the night by a horde of Stalchildren seems appropriate, no?
    >> TCN 03/28/12(Wed)00:45 No.18484305
    Oh, I thought you meant loot tables.

    Sure, wandering monster tables wouldn't be out of the question; but they ought to be optional. If it's the sort of game with vast overland travel, they may be more useful, but not so much if the GM wants to handle getting to certain places with a grid and specifically placed enemies.

    That sort of thing should wait until some of the other bigger issues are taken care of.
    >> Quick combat rules TCN 03/28/12(Wed)01:46 No.18484897
    In a combat or initiative-related situation, every participant has a pool of Actions (or Action Points) to use each round. The current idea is to let players use as many actions in a row on their turn as they want, but have to wait between other combatant's actions to act again outside of their turn. Reactions are considered to occur simultaneously with the triggering action.

    Currently, the basic actions avaliable are as follows (techniques/spells/songs/items add more)

    -Make a basic attack with a weapon
    -Move your speed (actual spaces moved vary depending on terrain)
    -Dash (same as a movement action, your speed becomes 1.5 it's usual value, so a character with speed 6 would move 9 with one action when dashing. Costs Stamina)
    -Draw/stow an item*
    -Use a potion or bottled item*
    -Prepare defense* (+1 to defend/react to the next attack against you)

    *These actions are small; you can move half your speed as a part of one of these actions.

    -Block: Use the Block skill to block attacks. "Stance" effect; until you're interrupted or take a new action, you continue to block.
    -Dodge: Use the Dodge skill to avoid attacks. "Stance" effect; until you're interrupted or take a new action, you continue to dodge. Each time you dodge, you can move up to half your speed, for a total number of spaces equal to your speed per Dodge action. (A speed 6 character could dodge 3 spaces twice, or 2 spaces three times, or 3 once, 1 three times, and 0 for each attack after that.)
    -Parry: Use the block skill to stun an enemy when they attack you. When stunned, an enemy can't use an action or Reaction the next time they should be able to. You can also deflect some projectiles by Parrying.
    -Interrupting Attack: Try to use some attack action before the enemy does; Use attack rolls to decide.
    >> TCN 03/28/12(Wed)01:59 No.18484994
    If you can't (or don't) react to an attack, you use your Base Defense to oppose enemy attack rolls. Base Defense is generally non-upgradeable, and is probably -1 for most creatures.

    What sorts of other actions should be allowed or disallowed as Reactions? Should you be able to run away from an attack? How about chug a potion right as you're about to get hit? Base Defense could possibly be used for those things. The Parry action could be used as a regular attack as well, to stun an enemy without waiting to react (possibly as a shield bash, maybe only as a technique).

    How would we go about handling something like a Tackle attack? It would be a Bull Rush sort of move used to shove someone or something, possibly flavored as that 3D roll attack. It could even be used as a template for the Goron's rolling ability.

    If that's the case, what skill would it use? Should it just be your choice of your melee skills (Melee, Heavy, Hand-to-Hand)? Is this a good case for merging some of those skills together?
    >> Anonymous 03/28/12(Wed)03:55 No.18485962
    Bump for interest.
    >> Anonymous 03/28/12(Wed)10:40 No.18488769
    You should be able to switch between blocking or dodging when you take a "defense stance", but I don't see an upside to blocking in the first place. Other than using the same skill as parrying, why block when you can dodge?
    >> Anonymous 03/28/12(Wed)16:06 No.18491656
    Where'd all the people go? Did they vanish once actual mechanics were brought up?
    >> Anonymous 03/28/12(Wed)16:39 No.18491992
    They'll be back to finish it in seven years.
    >> TCN 03/28/12(Wed)17:13 No.18492351
    I'm still working on the project, I'm just not around all the time. I'll work by myself if needed, but I would hope to get some critique and external opinions on the project as it goes. That's why I'm putting it up on /tg/ in the first place.

    It sort of sucks not to get any input at all, though.
    >> Akhenaten the Frustrated 03/28/12(Wed)18:01 No.18492806
    I think it might be better to leave Dodge as a one-off Reaction and have Block be the stance. Dodge already has the benefit of allowing a character to move in addition to negating an attack, potentially forcing persistent opponents to spend another action to get close again.

    Block, as a defense, will be better in that one Reaction gets you multiple chances at negation. However, it leaves the user stationary and more vulnerable to more attempts, with a successful attack against them ending it. Assuming it works only when using a shield, this means that one hand is guaranteed full which allows only for 1 one-handed weapon. Then there's also the whole shields being weak against certain things bit.

    On the topic of Magic and Stamina, it depends how long we expect fights to last. Quick and dirty fights can probably be done with no regeneration. Protracted fights will benefit from regen in that it will make it more dynamic. It also allows for Techniques or Spells which consume all remaining Stamina/Magic to some effect without taking away too many options in later turns. I'm of the opinion that Regeneration should exist for both Stamina and Magic and that it should be 1 point/round per Bar (Regen = points/4), as I mentioned in an earlier thread.
    >> Akhenaten the Frustrated 03/28/12(Wed)18:23 No.18493012
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    I'm also reconsidering my previous position on skill caps. It would certainly help to prevent front-loading relevant combat skills, but doing so would likely leave a character dangerously short in other areas. An entirely combat-focused character might lose out on opportunities to effectively participate in other iconic areas of the game such as puzzle-solving, general exploring, and NPC interaction (when rolled for), and I think that's okay because it's what the player has opted for. Along with the increasing cost of skills per rank, I don't think it's as much of a cause for concern.

    Not to get too off-topic from the more important issues, but I was also thinking about starting skill points since we already know the minimums, maximums, and general weight of skills. Enough skill points to have 2 ranks (average) in a few skills and 1 rank in a few more should suffice. That would probably translate to around 12 skill points at generation. Dumping all those points into one skill would only yield one rank 4 and two rank 1, so that's one thing. Spreading them out would give a character one rank 3 skill and two rank 2 skills (or one rank 3, one rank 2, and three rank 1). Spreading them out even more would give three rank 2 skills and three rank 1 skills. Hell, if a character so desired then they could even get one rank in twelve out of thirteen skills.
    >> TCN 03/28/12(Wed)19:22 No.18493551
    Good to have you back.

    That was the original issue with dodge, in that it was far inferior in terms of action economy. I do think it's a good idea to come back to, though. If we allow it to be used during a blocking "stance" without ending it, and of you could dodge multiple times per action spent (maybe only twice), it could compliment blocking rather than compete with it.

    Blocking should be possible with a weapon as well as a shield, although the only downside right now is that weapons can't block ranged or area attacks (by default).

    Let's stick with the Magic and Stamina regen idea for now. The only issue with regenerating magic is that highly potent spells (aka the medallions) would get more mileage in each fight, which might not be too bad. Ridiculous MP costs (say, 7 or 8 bars) and friendly fire may be strong enough handicaps. Although; recharging 10 MP every round may be a bit much; maybe it could cap at 4 MP/SP per round?

    What exactly do you mean by skill caps? Do you mean limiting skill advancement by phase, or the maximum of 5 levels in a skill? If its the former, I agree that it's too restricting.

    I was thinking about 5 skill points at chargen, enough for one level 2 skill and two level 1 skills, but now that seems very limited. I suppose the idea was for players to have about 10 skill points total by the end of phase 1, so they'd have a few level 2 skills. Again, this was all based off of limiting early minmaxing. I can repost the list I drummed up about skill point gain, but I'm also still fine with adjustments to skill point distribution.
    >> Draft of skill point distribution planning TCN 03/28/12(Wed)20:38 No.18494287
    >Beginning of phase 1 (chargen): one level 2 skill
    >-Beginning of phase 2: A few level 2 skills, 
    >-Beginning of phase 3: A few level 3 skills
    >-Beginning of phase 4: One level 5 skill or a few level 4 skills
    >-Phase 5: A few level 5 skills

    >Total skill point costs for each level (including previous level costs)
    >-Level 1: 1
    >-Level 2: 1 + 2 = 3
    >-Level 3: 1 + 2 + 3 = 6
    >-Level 4: 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 10
    >-Level 5: 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 =15

    CharGen: 5 skill points: enough for a smattering of level 1 skills or a level 2 skill
    End of Phase 1: ~10 skill points total
    End of Phase 2: ~20 total
    End ofPhase 3: ~30 total
    End of Phase 4-: ~40 total
    End of Phase 5: around 50 skill points total.

    This is only a rough guide of a rough guide. At the end someone could have, at most, three level 5 skills. This seems both too limiting, and too open (level 5 skills avaliable very early). Suggestions?
    >> Anonymous 03/28/12(Wed)23:37 No.18496219
    Don't know if I can contribute, but bumping.
    >> TCN 03/29/12(Thu)01:12 No.18497330
    I suppose determining skill point costs can happen after, but it's fairly important to create monster stats, since their attacks and defenses will have to be appropriately scaled compared to the players.

    I'm wondering about combining Melee (one handed weapons) and Heavy (two handed weapons) into one skill. Hand-to-hand is it's own beast, involving grapples, martial arts and knives, but Melee and Heavy overlap considerably, especially when techniques are involved. This would also help solve issues with general physical attacks; something like the Tackle skill could use the higher of your Hand-to-Hand or Melee skill.

    Speaking of weapons; it may be a good time to bring those up. Early-game bows and one-handed weapons require 1 action to use and deal 1H of damage by default. Heavy, two-handed weapons deal 2H of damage, but take 2 actions to swing* (crossbows require 1 action to fire and 1 to reload). Heavy weapons often have reach and other advantages to compensate for their reduced accuracy.

    Sword/Greatsword - Courage - [Edged, narrow**]
    Axe/Greataxe - Power - [Edged]
    Maces/Hammers - Power - no tags by default, magical or improved versions can have the [Impact] and [Pounding] tags, letting them shatter rocks and drive objects into the ground.
    Polearms/Spears/Tridents - Power - [Edged, Narrow**]
    Staves - Wisdom - [Narrow**]
    Bows/Crossbows - Wisdom - [Projectile, Edged, Narrow**]

    *Maybe attacks that have "charge-up" actions attached to them would allow the user to move half-speed or every action spent "charging", treating charging an attack like a small action (like stowing a weapon).
    **The Narrow tag needs a better name: it's meant to indicate items that are thin enough to enter narrow spaces, like a small tunnel, between bars, or into a small, armored weakpoint.
    >> TCN 03/29/12(Thu)03:09 No.18498527
    Improved weapons (either magical ones or improved craftsmanship) are intended to become avaliable as the game progresses. They can be plot related (the Master Sword or some similar artifact) or simply a treasure that functions as a weapon (like the Megaton/Skull hammer; a Zora cutlass with a blade of water was suggested last thread). Regular second tier weapons deal 2H of damage instead of 1H, and second tier heavy weapons deal 4H instead of 2H.

    A third tier could exist that is not explored until the closing acts of a campaign. Fully upgraded or realized weapons would fall under this category (the "true" master sword, the Golden/Gilded sword). Standard weapons would deal 3H. Heavy weapons are already pretty beefy, and there aren't many game-related examples to look to, but they could deal around 5H or 6H if they exist.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/12(Thu)10:02 No.18500636
    Morning bump.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/12(Thu)12:47 No.18501719

    On Dodge and Block, isn't Dodging bad in that it gives opponents a chance to attack you at range or charge up to you with you relatively defenseless? Block, you're in a position to do the same thing next time and at little risk until then.
    >> TCN 03/29/12(Thu)13:05 No.18501847
    Glad to see some people are still interested.

    That's the reason Dodge was planned to be a defensive "stance" like Blocking up until now; if you dodged once, you could keep dodging until you were interrupted. It wouldn't put you at risk because you would still use your Dodge skill to react to that ranged attack or charge. Is that what you wanted to know?

    I'm wondering if Dodge should instead be useable in conjunction with Block, along with Parry; they don't end your blocking "stance" when used, but still cost extra actions. Letting you dodge two times for each action spent may be a good idea as well.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/12(Thu)14:51 No.18502497
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    >> Anonymous 03/29/12(Thu)15:12 No.18502642
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    Maybe give a penalty to using the same defensive maneuver more than once or twice in a row? To represent the enemy getting wise to what the character's trying to do, and stop LOL DODGE?

    To use an example, if Link keeps blocking behind a shield, eventually that keese is going to hit him from behind and send him sprawling.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/12(Thu)15:18 No.18502686
    I've come to the conclusion that Link, like DnD PCs, is not a Hylain/elf at all, but a monster who hunts other monsters.
    He devours the hearts of his foes to regenerate, and at his evolutionary peak, has a Vigesimal Cadiovascular System.

    That's not anywhere close to human.

    Let's not forget it seems to be ingrained in his very nature to be a boss with a sword and at killing monsters.
    >> Akhenaten the Frustrated 03/29/12(Thu)16:50 No.18503367
    >I was thinking about 5 skill points at chargen, enough for one level 2 skill and two level 1 skills, but now that seems very limited
    I was thinking that 12 might be too much, so perhaps we can settle somewhere in the middle at about 8 or 9? That would be enough for two rank 2s and two or three rank 1s.

    Phases in themselves don't really serve any purpose beyond skill limitation and gauging monster threat levels. If there are going to be no skill caps then skill limitation is a non-factor and the awarding of skill points can be more organic and arbitrary. Along those same lines, monster-PC comparison can be done on a current-skill-point basis rather than accelerating skill point totals to meet the expectations of a particular phase. I also mentioned in a previous thread that such guidelines suppose a large amount of planning and prediction on the GM's part. I feel that phases could only really be identified at the extreme ends and in hindsight. It's too much work for too little pay-off.
    >> Akhenaten the Frustrated 03/29/12(Thu)16:51 No.18503378
    >I'm wondering about combining Melee (one handed weapons) and Heavy (two handed weapons) into one skill.
    It might very well benefit from that. If the main source of customization is techniques and talents then it would make sense to leave the distinction between assumed playstyles up to those factors. I say do it.

    I would say leave something like that to decidedly narrow objects and weapons such as Rapiers, arrows, and possibly daggers. Things like swords and staves aren't so defined by their narrowness.
    >Maybe attacks that have "charge-up" actions attached to them would allow the user to move half-speed or every action spent "charging"
    Sounds alright, though I would probably just limit it to one half-speed move overall. This might help mitigate kiting while still keeping in tune with the heavy weapon user's assumed weakness of initial lack of mobility.

    How about we let Dodge move a character up to their full Speed? It gives the advantage of great repositioning while having the disadvantage of only directly negating one attack. It opens the possibility of avoiding future attacks via cover or simply exiting an area attack's radius. Blocking, meanwhile, can potentially prevent multiple attacks but leaves the character exactly where they are.
    Were we still going to have Parry cause the attacker to lose an Action?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/12(Thu)17:00 No.18503463
    How about a fraction of full Speed? Half, or two thirds?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/12(Thu)17:01 No.18503480
    I guess I'll just throw out all of the stuff I've been making for the "previous" version.

    Why are we making a 2e when the first fucking iteration wasn't even finished? Do we have that little an attention span?
    >> Akhenaten the Frustrated 03/29/12(Thu)17:07 No.18503526
    The previous stance form only allowed for up to half-speed movement with each Dodge, maxing out at the character's full Speed. However, if we're going to have Dodge be a single instance then it might be better to increase the immediate pay-off.

    Why make the previous version when there was already a d20 version? It's just a case of differences in approach. In this case, some of us felt the other one was a bit too clunky. It's not like it's going away, though.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/12(Thu)17:12 No.18503578
    This "edition" looks like a revision of the unfinished version. Zelda 1.0 is a more accurate title.

    >mercy mineces
    >> TCN 03/29/12(Thu)17:42 No.18503853
    8 skill points at the start sounds good. The "skill points per phase" was meant to be a rough estimate of the difficulty of monsters and challenges at those phases, but more organic distribution is preferable. Phases should only be used a planning suggestion or guide.

    I guess the need for a narrow/stabbing/thrusting tag for melee weapons is fairly limited. that sort of thing could be handled by a case-to-case basis (GM ruling that your weapon is too big to fit between some bars).

    A limit of one half-speed move sounds fair.

    I guess my idea of a dodge is a quick roll, flip or sidestep- a maximum distance of half-speed, maybe limited by having the movement be a straight line.
    >> TCN 03/29/12(Thu)19:52 No.18505175
    Allowing you to dodge twice with one action (as in being able to dodge again unless interrupted) seems fair, but somewhat clumsy. I can't think of a better option, though.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/12(Thu)22:49 No.18506904
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    Hey! Listen!

    What if we just keep defensive actions to one per attack against you?
    >> Anonymous 03/29/12(Thu)23:13 No.18507140
    Maybe also tack on something 'like each extra defensive maneuver taken in the same turn has a (-1 or -2) penalty', so someone can be overwhelmed

    Also, too many tabs. Oh god.
    >> TCN 03/29/12(Thu)23:37 No.18507386
    I'd rather avoid handing out penalties or bonuses without an exceptionally good reason.

    Do you mean, dodging and blocking against the same attack? Since that's what's currently in place; you can't React multiple times to one action.
    >> Anonymous 03/29/12(Thu)23:47 No.18507492
    For every attack, you can choose to Dodge, Block or Something once.
    >> TCN 03/30/12(Fri)01:19 No.18508444
    Then yes.

    Maybe multiple Dodges could be handled with a technique, instead of being the default? If so, it may look like this:

    Block: One Action
    -Use Block skill to defend. Stance effect, lasts until interrupted
    Dodge: One Action
    -Use Dodge skill to defend, move half-speed. Does not interrupt Blocking.

    Wheras if dodging twice were implemented, it could look like this:
    Dodge: One Action
    -Use Dodge skill to defend, move half-speed. Stance effect, lasts until user dodges a second time or is interrupted. Does not interrupt Blocking; user can choose whether to block or dodge their next attack.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/12(Fri)01:29 No.18508559
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    >> TCN 03/30/12(Fri)04:23 No.18510163
    One last post or the night. Sort of off topic from the Dodging discussion, but without input it's not making much progress.

    So, lets assume players get 8 skill points and 1 Virtue point at character creation. If we want to make talents/techniques all cost the same, like D&D feats, let's assume that most races start with an average of 2 or 3 talents or techniques at chargen. Those "slots" could also be used for background perks/penalties, which might be limited to character creation or attainable at any point during the game. Some sample background perks could be
    -owning a mount/vehicle
    -extra starting cash
    -benefits/penalties to social conduct in certain settlements
    -strange racial attributes, like making some races (zora and Gorons in particular) a size larger than usual. If Gorons start as Large size (2x2 spaces) by default, it may need to be a trait acquired later.

    These don't seem out of the question to be purchasable outside of character creation. What do you think?
    >> Anonymous 03/30/12(Fri)04:33 No.18510230
    Is there an archive or something of all the concept/fan art that this project spurned?
    >> Anonymous 03/30/12(Fri)05:14 No.18510445

    spurn (spûrn)
    v. spurned, spurn·ing, spurns
    1. To reject disdainfully or contemptuously; scorn. See Synonyms at refuse1.
    2. To kick at or tread on disdainfully.
    To reject something contemptuously.
    1. A contemptuous rejection.
    2. Archaic A kick.
    [Middle English spurnen, from Old English spurnan; see sper- in Indo-European roots.]
    >> Anonymous 03/30/12(Fri)12:52 No.18513604

    A lot of that art is being used here, that doesn't seem like "spurning".
    >> Anonymous 03/30/12(Fri)15:15 No.18514639
    How will child characters be handled? Just lowered Strength and Weight from the default race block?
    >> Anonymous 03/30/12(Fri)15:37 No.18514883
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    Makes sense.
    >> TCN 03/30/12(Fri)16:34 No.18515499
    Sounds fair. If gorons are naturally Large size, then playing an elderly goron could use the child modifications (lowered strength, weight, and size).

    What topic should get covered next? I can exposit ideas all I like, but that doesn't seem conducive to good discussions.
    >> Anonymous 03/30/12(Fri)20:47 No.18518274
    I think figuring out how Dodge works is the most important thing right now.
    >> Akhenaten the Frustrated 03/30/12(Fri)23:23 No.18520938
    I concur. Figuring out these defenses is a really core part of the game. It may be tiring to go over the same subject over and over, but we need to at least throw up out hands and arbitrarily declare one the victor.
    >> Anonymous 03/31/12(Sat)00:04 No.18521582
    Well, what are the current options for handling Dodge? So far it sounds like there's there's full stance, 2-dodge stance, and one dodge per action.
    >> Anonymous 03/31/12(Sat)03:11 No.18523797
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    One dodge per action, with a maximum limit on the number of actions you can dodge for, seems like the best choice.
    >> Anonymous 03/31/12(Sat)04:09 No.18524254
    A maximum limit? If it's one dodge per action, what's being limited?
    >> Anonymous 03/31/12(Sat)04:34 No.18524490
    I'd say one action per dodge to start, and allow for short dodging "stances" to be made as talents.
    >> Anonymous 03/31/12(Sat)11:40 No.18527280
    >> Anonymous 03/31/12(Sat)13:03 No.18527901
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    >> Anonymous 03/31/12(Sat)15:51 No.18528983
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    >> TCN 03/31/12(Sat)18:22 No.18529827
    Okay, one dodge per action by default, with more options through talents.

    I'd like to aim to make a playtestable version avaliable soon. What are we missing?

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