How does our optimized-for-athletic-skills level 20 human ranger in Next/5e stack up an optimized-for-athletic-skills level 6 human ranger in D&D 4e? No magic items, just pure physical prowess. Let us see.

It is trivial for a level 6 human ranger in 4e to have Strength 20 and Wisdom 16, so let us go with that.

Let us give our 4e ranger a background that grants +2 Athletics. Let us also give them a theme that grants +2 Athletics at level 5; out of the 108 published themes, many of them grant Athletics bonuses. (Backgrounds exist in Next/5e, but work differently. Themes also exist in Next/5e, but were renamed "specialties" in the more recent playtest packets, and they also work differently.)

A 4e ranger receives five trained skills, and a human gets an additional trained skill. Let us train our 4e ranger in Acrobatics, Athletics, Endurance, Nature, Perception, and Stealth. Since the level 20 human ranger in Next/5e spend four out of their four feats on skill boosters, let us have our 4e ranger take Skill Focus (Athletics) for +3 Athletics, Skill Focus (Perception) for +3 Perception, and Kord's Force to make an Athletics check in place of any skill check.

Our 4e ranger is probably wearing chain armor, so their total Athletics bonus is 3 half level + 5 Strength modifier + 5 training + 2 background + 2 theme + 3 Skill Focus - 1 chain armor = Athletics +19, and their Perception bonus is 3 half level + 3 Wisdom modifier + 5 training + 3 Skill Focus = Perception +14.

Let us square off the level 20 Next/5e ranger (who is trained in only Break an Object, Climb, Listen, and Track, remember?) and the level 6 4e ranger in various tests of athleticism and perceptiveness, shall we now?

>Next/5e DM Guidelines, page 5: Climb at DC 30 to climb an oiled rope
Level 20 Next/5e ranger rolls twice and takes the higher result for 1d20+1d12+5, and all results below 10 on the d20 become 10
Chance of success: 27.75%

>4e Player's Handbook, page 182: Athletics at DC 20 to climb a slippery and unusually smooth rope
Level 6 4e ranger rolls 1d20+19
Chance of success: 100%

Score:
Level 20 Next/5e ranger: 0
Level 6 4e ranger: 1

The level 6 4e ranger has a 100% chance of climbing an oiled rope, even while in a rush, threatened, and distracted, and weighed down by chain armor.

>Next/5e DM Guidelines, page 5: Break an Object at DC 30 to break open a heavy door held by a metal bar or a masterwork lock
Level 20 Next/5e ranger rolls twice and takes the higher result for 1d20+1d12+5, and all results below 10 on the d20 become 10
Chance of success: 27.75%

>4e Rules Compendium, page 175: Strength at DC 20 to break open a reinforced, barred door
Level 6 4e ranger rolls 1d20+19
Chance of success: 100%

Score:
Level 20 Next/5e ranger: 0
Level 6 4e ranger: 2

The level 6 4e ranger has a 100% chance of breaking down a reinforced, barred door, even while in a rush, threatened, and distracted, and weighed down by chain armor.

>Next/5e DM Guidelines, page 5: Break an Object at DC 30 to break chains or manacles
Level 20 Next/5e ranger rolls twice and takes the higher result for 1d20+1d12+5, and all results below 10 on the d20 become 10
Chance of success: 27.75%

>4e Rules Compendium, page 175: Strength at DC 28 to burst out of iron chains
Level 6 4e ranger rolls 1d20+19
Chance of success: 60%

Score:
Level 20 Next/5e ranger: 0
Level 6 4e ranger: 3

The level 6 4e ranger has a 60% chance of bursting out of iron chains, even while in a rush, threatened, and distracted, and weighed down by chain armor.

>>24303985
more! more! Do the Amodeus ones!

>Next/5e DM Guidelines, page 5: Swim at DC 20 to swim in stormy waters
Level 20 Next/5e ranger rolls 1d20+5
Chance of success: 25%

>4e Player's Handbook, page 182: Athletics at DC 20 to swim in stormy waters
Level 6 4e ranger rolls 1d20+19
Chance of success: 100%

Score:
Level 20 Next/5e ranger: 0
Level 6 4e ranger: 4

The level 6 4e ranger has a 100% chance of swimming in stormy waters, even while in a rush, threatened, and distracted, and weighed down by chain armor.

>Next/5e DM Guidelines, page 9: Track at DC 25 to track a creature across bare stone
Level 20 Next/5e ranger rolls 1d20+1d12+5
Chance of success: 37.5%

>4e Player's Handbook, page 187: Perception at DC 25 to track a creature across bare stone
Level 6 4e ranger rolls 1d20+14
Chance of success: 50%

Score:
Level 20 Next/5e ranger: 0
Level 6 4e ranger: 5

I have to say, the way skills are turning out is definitely killing a lot of my cautious optimism that 5e might turn out alright.

>Next/5e DM Guidelines, page 8: Listen at DC 15 to eavesdrop on a conversation through a door
Level 20 Next/5e ranger rolls 1d20+1d12+5
Chance of success: 85%

>4e Player's Handbook, page 187: Perception at DC 15 to eavesdrop on a conversation through a door
Level 6 4e ranger rolls 1d20+14
Chance of success: 100%

Score:
Level 20 Next/5e ranger: 0
Level 6 4e ranger: 6

I'd complain about the reposting but this shit is just too fantastic.

This is a bonus round because it takes the level 20 Next/5e ranger and the level 6 4e out of their element. Two skilled wilderness hunters must now enter a city and gather information by talking to people.

The point-buy for Next/5e is incredibly restrictive. Let us be generous and give the Next/5e ranger Charisma 12, which is a significant chunk of their point-buy. Their Gather Rumors check bonus is thus +1.

On the other hand, let us just completely dump Charisma for the 4e ranger, down to 8. Their Streetwise bonus is therefore 3 half level - 1 Charisma modifier = Streetwise +2.

>Next/5e DM Guidelines, page 9: Gather Rumors at DC 15 to find what you need in a city
Level 20 Next/5e ranger rolls 1d20+1
Chance of success: 35%

>4e Player's Handbook, page 188: Streetwise at DC 15 to gather information in a typical settlement
Level 6 4e ranger rolls 1d20+2
Chance of success: 40%

Score:
Level 20 Next/5e ranger: 0
Level 6 4e ranger: 7

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So what can we conclude from this? High-level characters in Next/5e are incredibly incompetent as far as skills are concerned. Even when performing the tasks they are optimized for, due to a combination of poorly scaling skill check bonuses and high DCs, they simply cannot succeed at the tasks level 20 characters should be succeeding at. A level 20 character in Next/5e is fighting balors and pit fiends. Why does climbing an oiled rope or breaking down a barred door pose so much trouble?

They used 4e-style skill DCs without taking into account the dramatically reduced scaling of skills, basically.

Furthermore, characters in Next/5e have too little skills. The level 20 Next/5e ranger in the example above is trained in 4 skills... out of 26, or 15% of the skills. They can break objects, climb, listen, track, and... well, that would be about it.

The level 6 4e ranger is trained in 7 skills out of 17, or 41% of the skills. They can balance, tumble, break falls, and perform acrobatic tricks like a swashbuckler (Acrobatics); climb, jump, swim, and exert force on objects effortlessly (Athletics); perform physical activity all day long (Endurance); know everything there is to know about creatures and plants of the natural world, tame and handle animals, and forage for food (Nature); perceive things with all five senses with great acuity and track in the wilderness (Perception); and hide and sneak about with a panther's grace (Stealth).

The level 6 4e ranger is basically Connor/Ratonhnhaké:ton from Assassin's Creed III, leaping across tree branches without breaking a sweat, without ever tiring.

Why is the level 20 Next/5e ranger so incompetent in comparison?

And yes, I have sent this as playtest feedback.

>>24303985
Didn't you post this exact same thing earlier today?

I'm failing to see the problem. Is it because you are no longer a demi-god that you are posting this? Because if that is the case, I might try to get into DnD again after 10 years of being sick of what Wizards did to the franchise.

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And while we are at it, let us study how various NPCs and monsters tackle various skills. NPCs and monsters do not have skills, because a single line of trained skills for a single monster entry would simply be *too much*

According to the bestiary, a human war chief has Charisma 12 and a Charisma modifier of +1.

>• Hard (DC 20): Get an unruly crowd to move out of the way

>• Hard (DC 20): Badger allied soldiers into a fighting mood

>• Hard (DC 20): Goad a person into action

You have 1 hour to justify why a human war chief has a 90% failure rate to get a crowd to move out of the way, badger their own troops into a fighting mood, or goad someone into action.

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Also according to the bestiary, Asmodeus, Lord of the Nine Hells, has Charisma 30 and a Charisma modifier of +10.

>• Hard (DC 20): Get an unruly crowd to move out of the way

>• Hard (DC 20): Badger allied soldiers into a fighting mood

>• Hard (DC 20): Goad a person into action

You have 1 minute to justify why the lord of the Nine Hells has a 45% failure rate to get a crowd to move out of the way, badger his own troops into a fighting mood, or goad someone into action.

And before you ask, no, taking 10 is no longer in the game. They removed it because it would not mesh well with skill dice.

Now, at this time, it is probably worth pointing out that Asmodeus has an aura of authority that affects those who do not avert their gaze.

If you do opt to stare directly at the Lord of the Nine Hells and fail a DC 16 Wisdom saving throw, you get a debuff to your Strength checks, Strength saving throws, Strength-based damage rolls, and movement speed.

It does not affect any Charisma rolls in any way, and even if it did, there is always Unflappable, a feat we will soon be covering.

Asmodeus can also charm people, requiring a DC 17 Wisdom saving throw to resist. However, he has to use it judiciously: he can have only seven people charmed at a time, and afterwards, they remember that he charmed them. Considering his position as Lord of the Nine Hells, it is safe to say that he often has to use up all seven of his charm slots on his own devils, since he fails to command his own troops so often.

Asmodeus can also cast Wish... but only once per year. True cosmic power right there.

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According to the bestiary, Asmodeus has Strength 25 and a Strength modifier of +7.

>Formidable (DC 30): Break chains or manacles

>Formidable (DC 30): Break open a heavy door held by a metal bar or a masterwork lock

>Formidable (DC 30): Climb an oiled rope

In Next/5e, there is no such thing as a situational modifier. You either roll with advantage (roll twice and take the higher result), disadvantage (roll twice and take the lower result), or have the two cancel out. Advantage never stacks with advantage no matter what. Disadvantage never stacks with disadvantage no matter what.

So, even if Asmodeus had a hundred sources of advantage, he simply cannot achieve any of the above tasks, since a natural 20 is not an automatic success on an ability check or a skill check.

You have 1 hour to justify why it is utterly impossible for Asmodeus to break iron chains, break down a door held by a big padlock, or climb an oiled rope.

To quote the last thread:

"Great Lord Asmodeus has laid siege to the walls of your city for some reason... and there is but now one final trial before he enters and lays waste to the townspeople. Perhaps he will try to enter through the Pit of Despair. Climb the Oiled Rope and he might find himself in the Observatory. Break down the Barred Doors to get into the Shrine of the Silver Monkey. Release the monkey from its Iron Chains to unlock the Secret Passage to claim his prize. The choices are his and his alone.

"And like every other kid on that show, he goes home empty handed."

>>24304225
From the moment you roll initiative to the moment you gain XP, a level 20 character is a mythic hero who can punch the devil and surivive a nuke; why should non-combat abilities scale so slowly in comparison? Either it's lowe-powered or it isn't.

>>24304225
it's because a man who has spent all of his life training to be Man Who Climbs Ropes, and spends his off-hours FIGHTING GODS, is unable to climb a very difficult rope 3/4 of the time.

Not impossible, because it has a set DC, but very difficult. And he regularly fights threats to the existence of reality.

That's the problem.

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For that matter, do you know what it takes to imprison the Lord of the Nine Hells? A seal of the mightiest magics of the gods, perhaps? No; just toss him in the lockup with iron chains binding his wrists. For good measure, place him behind a sturdy door barred by a big padlock too. There. Asmodeus can *never* escape from this.

But Asmodeus has spells, you might say. He could Flame Strike his way out, or perhaps cast his once-per-year Wish. Well, he has spellcasting, actual spells, not 3.5-style spell like abilities. According to the rules for magic...

>Unless a spell’s description says otherwise, a spell requires you to chant mystic words, which constitutes its verbal component, and to have use of at least one arm to gesture, which constitutes the spell’s somatic component. Some spells also have material components, particular items or objects that are required for the casting.

>If you can’t provide a spell’s components, you are unable to cast the spell. Thus, if you are silenced or your arms are bound, you cannot cast a spell.

If Asmodeus's wrists are bound in iron chains, he cannot cast his spells, and he can never break out of them.

Good to know that if Satan comes for your soul, you can simply hide behind a sturdy door, and when the constabulary arrests him, all they need are some iron chains and a sturdy door to keep him in the slammer.

"Oh, the Lord of the Nine Hells? Tossed him in the lockup, we did. Shan't be getting out of that cell for a good, long while. Solid iron, those chains are."

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Asmodeus must be very tired after his countless, fruitless attempts to climb an oiled rope.

In the bestiary, several monsters are listed down as not needing to eat, drink, breathe, or sleep as part of their immunities. These include dracoliches, death knights, and elementals. Remember, they have to specifically list these things down for individual creatures.

Demons and devils have no such provision listed down. They still need to eat, drink, breathe, and sleep. This includes Asmodeus.

According to the bestiary, Asmodeus has a Constitution modifier of +7.

>Hard (DC 20): Stay awake for forty hours

If Asmodeus attempts the standard college student maneuver of staying up for 40 hours, Asmodeus will fail 60% of the time.

The Lord of the Nine Hells needs his beauty sleep.

>>24304257
>you have 1 minute to justify a DM having to do a little RP for an NPC and the NPC troops.
I can smell the buttmad. But seriously, try and get a competent DM if you think these are really going to be a problem. Or, don't play. I might give it a shot, since it's gonna scare all you WoW kiddies away.

>>24304204
Because climbing oiled ropes and breaking down sturdy barred doors are functionally impossible without some sort of other variable.

You are spoiled and expect high level characters to steamroll things that they strictly speaking shouldn't.

Why should a guy be able to break down a heavy ass well build door barred by a masterwork lock?

How the hell is a niggah gonna climb an oiled rope? Shits slippery.

Level 20 characters are incredibly powerful, but mainly through virtue of being really good at things, but even a master of a skill has limits. Very real limits.

Also, the game isn't finished yet.

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According to the bestiary, Asmodeus, Lord of the Nine Hells, has an Intelligence modifier of +8. Asmodeus also has no skills, because surely, a single line for trained skills would simply be *too much*.

According to the DM guidelines, the kind of Intelligence check it takes to identify a unique monster is...

>Formidable (DC 30): Identify a unique monster

In D&D Next, favorable circumstances give you advantage on a roll, meaning you roll twice and take the higher result. You never, ever gain a straight-up numerical bonus for a circumstantial benefit like this.

However, even with advantage, since the DC for the Intelligence check in question is 30, Asmodeus can never identify a unique monster.

You have 1 hour to justify why Asmodeus, Lord of the Nine Hells, has no idea who the other archdevils like Mephistopheles and Belial are, let alone what they look like or do.

Perhaps he has Alzheimer's? Why, what would happen if he was to spot himself in the mirror? He would not be able to identify himself!

This also explains why he has such trouble rallying his troops: They simply have no hope of recognizing him.

>>24304343
so... ignore the rules and have your DM make something else up?

Why are you bothering to play the game at that point?

>>24303985
So, really, isn't the problem here that the DCs are just too high?

Seems to me Next has adjusted the DCs to the high bonuses folks had in 4e, and didn't think to revise that when they switched how skills are rolled.

An easy fix, though a fatal error in game quality if they forget to. After all: Houserules are a symptom of a bug, not a feature of their own.

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According to the bestiary, a human commoner has a Charisma modifier of +0. Also according to the bestiary, Asmodeus, Lord of the Nine Hells, has a Wisdom modifier of +6.

>Contest: Fast-talk or con someone (against Wisdom)

>Contest: Tell a convincing lie (against Wisdom)

>Contest: Persuade someone to do something (against Wisdom)

>Contest: Convince someone to back down from a confrontation (against Wisdom)

Aggressor wins a contested roll in the event of a tie, as usual.

http://anydice.com/program/2140

You have 1 hour to explain why a completely untrained human commoner has a 26.25% chance of fast-talking Asmodeus, conning Asmodeus (e.g. selling him the Brooklyn Bridge), lying to Asmodeus, persuading Asmodeus to do something, or convincing Asmodeus to back down from a confrontation.

Meanwhile, a level 20 character with the highest Strength possible, the highest skill dice for Break an Object and Climb possible, Skill Focus (Break an Object), Skill Supremacy (Break an Object), Skill Focus (Climb), and Skill Supremacy (Climb) still has only a 1 in 4 chance of bursting out of iron chains, breaking down a door held by a heavy bar or a masterwork lock, or climbing an oiled rope.

>>24304369
>Because climbing oiled ropes and breaking down sturdy barred doors are functionally impossible without some sort of other variable.
Hey, you know what else is functionally impossible? FIGHTING DEMONS

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Let us try to optimize a level 1 diplomancer. The paladin is the only class so far that uses Charisma for any class features, so let us go with a paladin.

15 is the highest you can buy an ability score up to under Next/5e's point-buy. Add Charisma +1 for being a human or a lightfoot halfling, and another Charisma +1 for being a paladin...

The best you can scrounge up at level 1 is a paladin with Charisma 17 and a Charisma modifier of +3. For their four skills, each at a pitiful skill die of +1d6, let us pick out Bluff, Intimidate, Persuade, and Sense Motive. For their single feat, let us choose Unflappable:

>Unflappable
>You never let anything bother you, and always manage to put on a good face even when the odds are stacked against you.
>Prerequisite: Charisma 11 or higher
>Benefit: You ignore the effects of disadvantage when making Charisma checks.

Disadvantage makes you roll twice and take the lower result. According to the DM guidelines, the DM is supposed to give you disadvantage whenever your idea for a roll is terrible. Disadvantage never stacks.

>Disadvantage: Not every idea is a good one. A character might try to win the prince’s favor by bragging about all the bandits he or she slew, not realizing that the prince is an avowed pacifist. If an idea backfires on a player, apply disadvantage to the ability check or attack.

So, with Unflappable, no matter how poorly-worded the argument is, no matter how outlandish the lie is, no matter how absurd the circumstances are, our paladin ignores the "roll twice and take the lower result" effect of disadvantage.

Our level 1 paladin is at 1d20+1d6+3 for Bluff, Intimidate, and Persuade versus Asmodeus's 1d20+6 for Wisdom. How does our paladin fare?

http://anydice.com/program/2141

Our level 1 paladin has a 54.63% chance of convincing Asmodeus to give up his position as Lord of the Nine Hells, even with an argument as feeble as "Asmodeus, please go."

>>24304370

Maybe he's 2cool2care

What about the spells

Where's time stop, 4e didn't have time stop

>>24304390
>so... ignore the rules and have your DM make something else up?
yes, the DM usually makes things up.

>Why are you bothering to play the game at that point?
than don't

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Against a human commoner...

http://anydice.com/program/2142

They have a 78.54% chance of success when using Bluff, Intimidate, or Persuade, regardless of any outlandish arguments or deceptions.

Remember, kids: Convincing Asmodeus to do something is only 23.91% harder than convincing a dirt farmer to do something.

I think all of the above is sufficient evidence as to why D&D Next's skill system is made of silliness. At the very least...

1. Skills should be condense greatly, 4e-style.
2. Either skill bonuses should scale better, DCs should be lowered, or both.
3. Monsters need skills badly.

>>24304421
only because demons do not exist in our world.
If they did exist, who's to say beating em with swords and shit won't work?

Climbing oiled rope is beyond hard though. I only wish a word other than formidable was used, because climbing oiled rope is not just formidable. Its fucking nigh impossible.

>>24304451
I think he was trying to say that if your DM is fixing the rules for you in order to have them function, it means the rules don't work

>>24304473
At level 20, you can fire lasers from your eyes, kill several greater demons, probably at once, and rip and tear through countless hordes of people. But, no matter how many gods you've slain, you can't rip and tear through a sturdy door. Something's off here.

>>24304473
>Climbing oiled rope is beyond hard though. I only wish a word other than formidable was used, because climbing oiled rope is not just formidable. Its fucking nigh impossible.

Greased pole climbing is a regular competition all around the world.

If you know anything about rope climbing at all, you will know that climbing a greased rope is far easier than climbing a greased pole.

Here is a video of a man climbing a greased pole, solo: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YuRZzuyT-o

>>24304473
thank god we have you here in the thread to tell us what is possible or impossible

>fighting a demon with swords
possible

>climbing an oily rope after spending your life training to do so
impossible

>>24304315
>"Oh, the Lord of the Nine Hells? Tossed him in the lockup, we did. Shan't be getting out of that cell for a good, long while. Solid iron, those chains are."

We should make a setting out of this.

The devil imprisoned in the local gaol.

>>24304495
yar, got that, was just pointing out that DM has always had the option of bending or breaking rules

I wouldn't have taken such a strong stance if the shortcomings of Next where shown in a different manner than INOTAGODANYMORESHITSUCKS

>>24304552

Such as the manner "You can lock Asmodeus up in a cell with mortal iron chains and the GM has to hold the system's hand to even get it through this basic scenario without it pissing itself and crying"?

>>24304443
4E had Time Stop. It gave you 4 extra standard actions, which can't be used to make attacks. Simple and unambiguous.

I can tell there's not going to be any intelligent discussion on how to fix this, but instead just bitching about NOTMAIDEMIGAWDS
thread hidden

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>>24303985
> nearly impossible tasks are nearly impossible

>>24304638
>nearly impossible
>climbing an oiled rope
>can be done by regular dickheads
>can't be done by Lv20 D&D characters

>>24304584
Seriously being unable to break normal iron chains at level 20 is a fucking joke.
I mean the heroic strong guy breaking iron bonds is kinda a heroic fantasy staple.

not liking something doesn't give you the right to spam /tg/, Adslahnit.

>>24304638
What the hell is impossible about breaking iron manacles?
Strong in the arm heroes breaking iron chains is kinda a expected thing in heroic fantasy.

>>24304680
thanks, 4chan police

>>24304638
>The Lord of the Nine Hells can't break down a door
>Or recognize himself in a mirror
>Or lead an army
>Or stay awake for a relatively short length of time
>Or escape from chains

Real life humans can do all of these things. Somebody at the peak of potential in 5e can't.

>>24304343

When your proposed solution is to ignore the rules, it means the rules are not functional. And since the rules are what Mike Mearls is actually trying to sell me, he'd best have some better ones for the official release if he wants my money.

>>24304699
you're welcome

ps: search the archive, we've done this thread before.

>>24304707
>Or lead an army

He can pull it off 55% of the time, more than half of the time.

>Or stay awake for a relatively short length of time

He can do it 40% of the time, more than a third of the time.

He CAN do it.

>>24304748
If a real life military man couldn't lead his troops almost half the time, he'd be dismissed.

The average student can, and does, pull a 40 hour stint when they're required to. I'm sure you've got more than a 40% success rate at pulling an all-nighter.

>>24304748
Asmodeus, General of Hell's Armies, Leader of Ten Thousand Fanged Mouths, Flame-bearer, Bone-Crusher, He-Who-Drinks-Souls, can command his army...

...half of the time.

OP missed the point that mundane exploration is a constant challenge even for epic level adventurers. The fact that you're skilled enough to fight a demon should have no bearing on your ability to climb a slick rope. There are magical means to bypass trivialities at that point in the game anyway.

Just because you made it to high level does it mean you get the easy ride to glory.

>>24304748
>>24304781
>>24304787
>>24304707
> you roll for everything

>>24304781
>>24304787
Asmodeus succeeds MORE than half of the time.

>>24304832
"Hey good job fighting the boss of hell, guys! Really proud of you there. Good thing there weren't any slick ropes between us and the most powerful demon in the universe, or else we would /really/ have been in trouble."

>>24304864
And a real life human succeeds almost all the time. I think you're missing the point here.

>>24304864
the point he was mocking was that he fails /at all/

>>24304832
You mean, made it to high level and trained as much as possible at doing that specific thing which regular real life people do

>>24304835
>you can only be as good as you claim to be until the dice hit the floor

That's just freeforming, dude.

>>24304832
>There are magical means to bypass trivialities at that point in the game anyway.
So the mundane is a challenge to high level heroes unless they have magic.
In what way is that a good thing?

>>24304832
The OP specifically described a character who was as optimized as possible for climbing rope, not murdering things. The DC they'd have to meet is not possible, despite being a level 20 character who has mastered all possible rope-climbing skills.

>>24304864
Because 55% is so much more than 50% right guys?

Right...?

>>24304938
good enough to lead the Innumerable Legions of Hell, I suppose

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>>24304233
>>24304257
>>24304277
>mfw all of your arguments hinge upon the fact that monsters have yet to be given skill entries

>>24304928
Stop optimizing characters for bullshit.

Here's a better solution: Rope and Pitons. Now you can do something useful, like combat or healing.

>>24304966
>ignoring the climb-optimized lvl20 adventurer
>who spend all his life and career learning how to climb
>cannot climb a thing that normal, real-life people can

>Kord's Force
How would the 4e Ranger fare without this?

>>24304966
When they get skill entries, they'll be around the same level of incompetence as the players.

>>24304976
>Now you can do something useful, like combat or healing.

And people were calling 4e the WoW edition.

>>24305034
that is, failing 25% of the time to recognize themselves, break free from mundane chains, or command their own legions

>>24305048
Guess what. It's been this way since Chainmail.

>>24304976
>Missing the point entirely

>>24304207
He did. And he's still an autistic faggot

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>>24304432
>Our level 1 paladin has a 54.63% chance of convincing Asmodeus to give up his position as Lord of the Nine Hells, even with an argument as feeble as "Asmodeus, please go."

Oh god, I lost it right here.

>>24305080
I'm not missing the point when there is no real point of contention.

>I have no real argument, but I must rage.

>>24305106
No.
The point is by level 20 you should be able to do god damn incredible things. Not struggle with climbing a rope.

>>24305034
>implications

>>24305057
Exactly. So, even when they do have skill entries, we still have to deal with bellows of "WHO THE FUCK IS THAT GIT IN THE SHINY WALL?" every few days from the palace of Asmodeus.

Go the fuck to bed, Touhoufag.

Also, weren't you banned?

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>>24305087

>>24305086
>>24305106
are you seriously defending this? that Asmodeus, a DEMON GOD, fails to recognize himself in the mirror sometimes, even when trained for it?

That a man who has trained his entire life and career to climb ropes (and who sometimes fights dragons and demons, and defeats them), can't climb a rope more than 25% of the time?

You're defending that?

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>>24305153
>someblackguy

>>24304832
Meanwhile, Asmodeus, the fucking king of hell, satan himself, the very embodiment of lawful evil, can be persuaded to purchase the Sydney Opera House roughly 50% of the time by a random paladin who has literally just taken his vows, despite neither of them knowing what a 'sydney' is, and having little to no knowledge of opera.

This system is broken on a fundamental level. Whoever designed this pile of broken mechanics masquerading as a game needs to be added to the depopulation list for immediate euthanasia.

>>24305185
He gets the point.

>>24304369
>Level 20 characters are incredibly powerful, but mainly through virtue of being really good at things, but even a master of a skill has limits. Very real limits.


This is not the intended description of a level 20 character though. Level 20+ is called "Epic Levels" for a reason. Not all skill checks should be successes but if they spent THAT MUCH time into making sure they do 4 skills very well, by level 20 they had better be able to do those things with refined expertise. His point wasn't that 4e was so much better but just that they are using one half of a system without the other half there to make any fucking sense.

>>24305034
>When they get skill entries, they'll be around the same level of incompetence as the players.

Monsters are going to get skill entries soon, right?

Right?

Surely they wouldn't overlook such a thing for the next Next playtest packet... right?

>>24305185
Think about about this way. You're pissed off because a guy who climbs ropes has a hard time climbing an unclimbable rope.

He can climb any other normal rope, just not one that has been greased to the point where it's unclimbable. But at the same time he can still climb the impossible rope with measurable degree of success. What's your point? That your character can do the impossible, but only a little bit of the time?

>>24305210
>satan himself, the very embodiment of lawful evil, can be persuaded to purchase the Sydney Opera House roughly 50% of the time
Yeah, if your DM and party have the combined intellect of a dampened sock.

>This system is broken on a fundamental level
OH MY GOD!
A CHARACTER SPECCED FOR DIPLOMACY CAN DIPLOMANCE NPCS!

THE CLOUDS HAVE SUDDENLY BECOME WHIPPED MARSHMALLOW!

>>24305210
Why not just send a level 1 commoner at Asmodeus?

The commoner still has a good shot.

>>24305255
oh it's only been a year of playtesting, give them a little more time to send out complete packets

>>24305277
>The commoner still has a good shot.
At being brutally raped and murdered.

>>24305247
You've clearly never actually played a level 20 character from any edition that isn't 3.x or Pathfinder. D&D character are still supposed to be within human limits.

>>24305277
And that's how the last Asmodeus was born.
There's a nigh-infinite amount of commoners, each one trying for his job, just by talking him out of it, inadvertently setting themselves up to fail when the next guy shows up with a clever line and an earnest expression.

>>24305271
well, more laughing than pissed...

not impossible - if it were impossible, it wouldn't have DC, or even be listed. It would say, "Characters cannot climb oiled ropes."

>>24305271
It's not impossible. Real people can do it, and they're not even god-slaying warriors.

>>24305273
A LEVEL ONE CHARACTER SPECCED FOR DIPLOMACY SELLS AN IMAGINARY ITEM TO THE GOD OF LAWFUL EVIL

>>24305271
A greased rope is not unclimbable a normal iron chain is not unbreakable these are some pretty bog standard heroic fantasy actions.

>>24305321
IN A GAME OF PRETEND, A GUY IN HIS BASEMENT MAKES THE CHARACTER DO THINGS!

YAY!

>>24305301
>You've clearly never actually played a level 20 character from any edition that isn't 3.x or Pathfinder.

Or ADnD
Or 4e

25% chance to succeed in something that you spent 2 feats on and focused on the entire time leveling. How can you possibly be defending this?

>>24305273
Try "a first level character has a fifty-fifty chance of getting the king of hell to back down on the flimsiest of arguments." Now, if they wanted to spin it as something from lore, where trickster-type characters trick the devil so often I'm surprised he still has control of Hell, that'd be one thing. But I think it's pretty clear this is just bad math.

>>24305273
That same PC at level 17 has a 94% chance to convince Asmodeus to give up the throne by saying "Bannana Monkey, my Sock Puppet friend, says you should."

Whilst his friend Ropey Mc Ropeclimb the best RopeClimber in the land, using the exact same stat numbers and feat selections of skill focus and mastery - optimised instead to climbing rope, can't climb a greasy rope 3 times in 4.

So, one skill monkey can talk the lord of hell out of ruling his domain 94% of the time with a lame excuse, and another skill monkey can accomplish a task that even real expert rope climbers can accomplish only 25% of the time.

That's fucking broken.

>>24305339
Remember it's only 4 feats in NEXT, so it's not just 2 feats, it's half of all the feats you get.

All this Asmodeus impotence shit simply makes me think Next is written by a Debate Me I'm Atheist circlejerk.

And I mean that in the literal sense. A group of dudes sitting side by side rubbing the dick of the dude next to him while shouting out biblical inconsistencies. That's who is writing Next.

>>24305335
the point is that the skill system is broken, a year into development

not that we're playing pretend

>>24305310
yet there is still that margin of success, because even though it's nearly impossible, it might be if you're a really good climber or you have some sort of magic to aid you, or even both.

>>24304204
Thank you for taking the time to crunch these numbers and sending them to Wizards in the playtest feedback.

>>24305369
what does that have to do with anything?

>>24305376
The skill system's been fine this whole time. The most recent playtest fucked everything in the ass.

You want to complain to anyone, complain to WotC on their boards, not here. That won't get anything done

>>24305271
>ropes that people can climb in real life being called unclimbable
Hilarious.

And you're still ignoring the fact a devil lord on the level of gods can fail to recognize himself in the mirror or fail to lead an army.

The fact he he has ANY chance to fail stupid shit like that is the problem.

>>24305416
They made Gods all weak and sissy as though they have something to prove about it.

>>24305335
well then why have a system in the first place if you're just going to ignore it

>>24305328
For Hercules maybe, but not for robin hood, Odysseus or even Conan the Barbarian. They'd have to be clever and find some sort of method to break them or escape while still being bound by manacles.

They'd instead have to find a method to break the manacles over time instead of the straight DC.

>>24305350
This

TLDR: Climbing and Bluff despite both being equally focused upon through a character's career will either yield gamebreaking or non-event results.

>>24304504
being able to shoot fire from your eyes does not change how friction works

>>24305350
I think a better comparison would be the level 1 paladin diplomancing Asmodeus with a flimsy argument versus the level 20 rope climber.

54.63% chance for the level 1 guy to con Asmodeus with a flimsy argument...

27.75% chance for the level 20 guy to climb an oiled rope.

D&D Next i pure diarrhea and WotC needs to hire a statistician/mathematician/physicist to do some number crunching.

>>24305439
... okay, so you're saying that because
>5e skill system is fucked
it means that
>atheists are trying to disprove god
by virtue of
>making the a subsystem in a tabletop rpg nonsensical

is that what you're saying?

>>24305383
"It's okay! You have a small chance of success so everything's fine!"

Are you really this dumb?

>>24305447
>They'd instead have to find a method to break the manacles over time instead of the straight DC.

Like convincing the guard (with a solid 90+% probability) that they're actually the king and should be let go?

>>24305145
Touhoufag is a concept, not a person.

>>24305424
>ropes that people can climb in real life being called unclimbable

Show me proof anywhere than anyone in the world has ever successfully climbed a greased rope.

>>24305476
Sure. That's exactly it and you're not choosing to miss the point at all.

>>24305447
You really think Robin Hood, Odysseus or Conan couldn't climb a greased rope?

Dude, you can take all the time in the world you want. If you can't hit the DC to break the mannacles, you can't hit the DC. Whether you try once or a billion times, the D20 won't gain a side labelled "30" unless something gets really fucked with the laws of reality.

>>24305520

Climbing a rope is easier than climbing a pole.

People climb greased poles for sport, in real life.

Ergo, these people can also probably climb a greased rope.

>>24305447
>For Hercules maybe
Dude there are real life humans that can pull apart iron chains.

>>24305520
show me proof that anyone in the world has fought a demon

>>24305339
Seems reasonable to only succeed at a nearly impossible task only 25% of the time. You've pretty much got any other rope coivered, but you have trouble on one that's otherwise impossible except for the fact that you're so good at climbing ropes.

Besides, your whole argument is bullshit anyway. The skill systems isn't the meat of the game. Actually playing it is. Except for the fact that you're obsessing over not being able to do one specific task more than 1 out of 4 trie, something that is otherwise impossible for all but 99% of the population in reality, the system works out well as a way to keep the ball rolling without having to open the rulebook every five minutes to search for a specific rule.

>>24305461
Yes, that's also a great comparison. But I thought if we compared like for like, simply swapping out one skill for another, where one produces game breaking results and one makes you barely competant, that it would illustrate the problem with the skill system.

>>24305335
>resorting to self-hate

To anyone thinking they need to further argue that the skill system is fucked, please remember you are on the board where people will adamantly insist someone requesting they use a coaster in their home is wrong. If it is remotely possible to hold an opposing view you can believe a large amount of people here will hold it.

>>24305509
Whatever you say, Colette

What the hell is with these stupid high DCs?

>>24305564
>you're obsessing over not being able to do one specific task
No one is doing that.
There are multiple examples of the problem.
You're happy for example that a level 20 paladin, 94% of the time, can talk down Asmodeus from ruling hell by saying LITERALLY anything...?

>>24305564
Having a 25% chance to climb a greased rope at level 20 is fine.
As is having a 50% chance to bluff the Lord of Hell at level 1.

Do you seriously not see the problem here?
No horrible discrepancies anywhere?

>>24305543
Yes, there might be. They're strongmen. They've trained their entire life to be able to do feats of strength. They have to do very specific muscle exercises in order to do so. Just being strong doesn't make you capable of doing so in real life.

>>24305447
>For Hercules maybe, but not for robin hood, Odysseus or even Conan the Barbarian. They'd have to be clever and find some sort of method to break them or escape while still being bound by manacles.

Have a video of a real-life human snapping a chain just by literally flexing his bicep.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZff1eDhs5w

>>24305520
There's an event called a Spartan Race. Participants are required to lift a heavy object, using a lubricated rope. They are also required to climb a wall covered in grease, with the assistance of a rope that is too covered in grease.

There is also, as has been said, a contest held worldwide requiring participants to climb a greased pole. Climbing a pole is harder than climbing a rope.

>>24305619
>They've trained their entire life to be able to do feats of strength.
That's exactly what the ranger in the OP is.
He has trained all 20 levels to be good a climbing and breaking shit yet he can't reliably break chains.

>>24305619

You mean just like the level 20 character, who has spent half his feats on being able to break shit?

We're not raging that girly wizards can't snap iron chains here, the fucking DEDICATED STRONGMAN, WHO DOES THOSE VERY SPECIFIC EXERCISES WITH THE DIRECT INTENT OF BREAKING CHAINS, WHO HAS DONE THIS HIS ENTIRE LIFE can't do it.

>>24305613
>You're happy for example that a level 20 paladin, 94% of the time, can talk down Asmodeus from ruling hell by saying LITERALLY anything...?

Or a level 1 paladin can talk down the ruler of hell with the flimsiest of arguments...

54.63% of the time.

>>24305619
>They've trained their entire life to be able to do feats of strength.
Like the level 20 rope climber you mean?
Except he's trained his entire life to do feats of rope?
Except, y'know, he can't.
But it's ok, because his level 20 paladin buddy is now ruling hell. He convinced Asmodeus without breaking a sweat, and is now wearing a papre plate on his face that he coloured with crayons.
If anyone asks, he says "yes, I am Asmodeus." And they believe him. Without question.

>>24305564
>Seems reasonable to only succeed at a nearly impossible task only 25% of the time.
Guy, have you seen where it's been repeatedly said it is FAR from impossible?
Skilled people who are expert climbers can, and do, climb oiled ropes without assistance or gear.
In 5e, a skilled climber at the maximum height of his possible potential WILL FAIL more often than not in the same situation.
There is a disconnect between investment and reward, the same kind of disconnect there was in 3.x.

>>24305609
The fact that you think I'm him just reinforces my point.

>>24305707
So the Paladin can pretty much Chicken Boo the shit out of hell.

That actually sounds like a hilarious campaign idea.

>>24305707
What about the level 1 Unflappable paladin?

>>24305660
That's really not much of a problem in my book.

You can't always win.

>>24305741
The problem is some people can with much less effort.

>>24305736
It seems to me that 5e is built for discworld.
Hero's can't climb ropes and the lord of hell is a twit that routinely forgets what he looks like.

>>24305741

Unless you're rolling diplomacy, then you get to win between 50 and 90% of the time, regardless of who your victim is.

It'd be one thing if everyone was just weirdly incompetent. It'd be another if everyone was just weirdly competent. But it's neither. Characters are randomly hypercompetent and hyper-incompetent, depending entirely on which skill they happened to pick.

>>24305741
It's not a problem that a level 20 hero can't routinely perform a task that real world people can do?

>>24305741
There's a difference between "a slim chance of failure" and "a slim chance of success"

A character who's used half the feats he will ever get to be good at a skill should have a slim margin of failure, not a slim margin of success.

>>24305736
Yes. Yes he can.
In fact a very brave Paladin rolling very lucky could do this at level 1.

>>24305741
your book is really, really strange

>>24304370
This is just like the 3.5e bollocks about how commoners cannot recognise bears

Clearly the DC is for identifying a unique monster *you have never met before*

>>24305832
How lucky does the level 1 paladin have to be?

Doesn't he have to roll a natural 20?

>>24305842
I don't think it's a book at all.

On one hand this topic is naked trolling.

On the other hand, as a fan of everything but 4e, it is correct. The flattened math looks horrible. Oh well. Stick with your edition of choice, everyone.

>>24305886
How is it trolling?
It's pointing out a glaring and hideous flaw in a system open to public playtest.

How is it trolling to say "that shit is broken and here's why" when that shit IS broken.

>>24305886

As opposed to skill challenges, which absolutely did not require over a dozen patches before the numbers made anything approaching sense.

>>24305879

>>24304432
>So, with Unflappable, no matter how poorly-worded the argument is, no matter how outlandish the lie is, no matter how absurd the circumstances are, our paladin ignores the "roll twice and take the lower result" effect of disadvantage.

>Our level 1 paladin is at 1d20+1d6+3 for Bluff, Intimidate, and Persuade versus Asmodeus's 1d20+6 for Wisdom. How does our paladin fare?

>http://anydice.com/program/2141

>Our level 1 paladin has a 54.63% chance of convincing Asmodeus to give up his position as Lord of the Nine Hells, even with an argument as feeble as "Asmodeus, please go."

>>24305904
Comparing it to 4e characters using highly dubious metrics.

You're right, 5e has issues. It doesn't mean this isn't stirring shit.

>>24305454
You are a terrible person.

>>24305913
Dubious metrics being giving the 4e character an extreme handicap (14 less levels) and comparing the exact same tasks with similar DCs?

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Wait, guys, I think we are overlooking something.

How does the paladin identify Asmodeus so that he can trick him in the first place? I'm pretty sure he is physically incapable of identifying a unique monster, so he would just assume Asmodeus is a nobody and wander on past, right through his throne room.

>>24305779
The first Lord of Hell WAS a twit who can't recognise his own reflection.

Now, a Holy Man rules Hell, using the previous Lord as a Foot Stool. He's actually reforming the legions of hell to be crusaders for justice, spreading peace and love through the world.

Owing to a cunning disguise of a paper plate and his god-like ability to convince people of anything he says being true, no one questions this. Not even his foot stool.

>>24305927
>Comparing it to 4e characters
Dude, all these examples are self contained. Based solely on 5e Rules. It's not a comparison to anything.

>>24305986
That's why he goes around telling everyone to give up their hell throne because he has no idea what a demon actually looks like.

>>24305927
>Comparing it to 4e characters using highly dubious metrics.
The same optimizing inherent to the respective games, with the same set DCs of their respective games, doing the same tasks, is dubious metrics?

>>24305564
>Seems reasonable to only succeed at a nearly impossible task only 25% of the time.

But climbing a slippery rope is something that proficient sailors used to be able to do and had to on the regular so right there it's already a huge flaw in your argument.

>>24305564
>99% of the population in reality,

I highly doubt that only 1% or even only 5% of the Earths population could climb a greasy rope.

>the system works out well as a way to keep the ball rolling without having to open the rulebook every five minutes to search for a specific rule.

What the fuck does looking at the rule book have to do with the price of tea in China?

>>24305986
Asmodeus:'Who the devil was that? Musta been another butler. They all look the same lately :| "

I'm amused by the fact that you are criticizing D&D Next because the beta rulebook doesn't include any kind of global character development after lvl 10 nor skill entry in the monster description.

Didn't you realized that, maybe, they didn't add that yet? Like, they added combat development to see how the bonuses scaled through the levels and if their formula fixed the problems that 3.x had at higher levels, but without adding feats, skills nor extra content, as they are still seeing how their scaling mechanic fares, and not releasing a completed game.

>>24306033
Considering there's various underlying changes big and small to the system, yes. Each edition has different quirks and vagaries that alter the game in play and in optimization.

Besides, it's 4e. Using it for anything is an instant shitstorm.

>>24306045
Not OP btw, forgot to change name

>>24305927
But the comparison does it's job.

It outlines the fact that the 5e skill system is utterly broken to the point of being both fucking hilarious and tragically sad at the same time. An actual human being created this, and thought to himself, "Yeah, this looks good". This is something that actually happened.

Hell, Realms of Atlantasia had more goddamn thought put into it than this shit.

>>24305986
Everyone in Hell is required to wear name tags. Asmodeus insisted during one of his more lucid moments, or else after being briefly affected by some form of magic item that granted him a +2 or greater bonus to "identifying oneself in the fucking mirror"

>>24306056
But people want to form opinions and be right! Who cares about waiting for the finished product or accepting it's not a complete project! That gets in the way of BEING RIGHT ON THE INTERNET!

>>24306056

Irrelevant, seeing as how the skill system is shattered at level 1 and level 10 just as badly as it is at level 20.

>>24306091
The dudes mking 5e have been making this or a year. And they released it, as is, for public consumption when it's such a clusterfuck.

The whole point of their playtest is feedback.

This is feedback.

Hillarious feedback.

Is next just getting worse with each playtest pack?

>>24306111
Well, I concur on the matter that the skill system is stupid. But probably it will change at higher levels. At lvl 1 is not that broken, and it begin to get more broken as DC gets higher. I still hate it because they still use the freaking D20, which is horrible at comparing rolls (spot vs sneak, for instance), and adding more freaking dices doesn't fix the problem. They should use a freaking d6 for skill rolls, and add an extra skill die for trained skills, which gets better if you choose to. They would drop the d20, but the thing will get less stupid.

>>24306145
No. Read the last one: I assure you combat is great, far better than 3.x, classes are amusing and interesting, and the advantage, disadvantage thing is great. Also, random background for magical items. That shit is awesome.

>>24306056
>Didn't you realized that, maybe, they didn't add that yet?

Well it does explicitly state levels beyond 10 when talking about when you get more/better skill dice. Also regardless of what OP posted there's lots of shit wrong with DnD NEXT. If they release this anywhere close to what it is now it's going to kill DnD.

>>24306145

I think so. It seemed pretty cool when the first packet was released. Maybe it's just because everyone was still in the honeymoon phase.

>>24306145
The more paranoid part of me thinks they're deliberately relasing shit so the final product will blow us away. After setting our expectations so low with the playtest, even if they just produce something playable we'd be impressed.

However, the more likely and more terrifying reality is that they actually are just morons who don't realise how fucked their shit truly is.

>>24306226
>I think so. It seemed pretty cool when the first packet was released. Maybe it's just because everyone was still in the honeymoon phase.

Well it was really just because they did do a decent job at working towards changing magic users etc. It's just that the more info came out the more it outweighed anything good.

>>24306197
>At lvl 1 is not that broken
55% chance to talk the lord of Hell down from his throne by saying "that's a nice chair, can I has it?" is "not that broken"....?

>>24305301
Then why are most human soldiers, at most, level 6. No, anything past 10 has gone into damn near superhuman.

>>24306197
>dices
Get the fuck out.
Your right to post on /tg/ is revoked.

>>24306225
>If they release this anywhere close to what it is now it's going to kill DnD.
Of course, it's a freaking beta.

Skills are horrible, sure. But think about this: they add the skill progression at higher levels than 10, but doesn't do the same with feats. Why? Because they would need to create feats at higher levels, which requires time. But the skill die mechanic is simple to fix at higher level.

Still, just think about the skill mechanic at 3.x, 4.0 and 5.0. They are all horrible. Why is that? Because the stupid d20. When you have an array of numbers from 1 to 20, or you add and stupid skill progression, as 3.x had, or you add a very little one, and you get 5.0. Just change it to a freaking 3d6, or 1d6+extra dice for trained, and the system is suddenly fixed.

>>24305422
>Spreading information is bad
>Provoking discussion anywhere but the official forums is bad
WotCIDF, pls go.

>>24306197
A paladin can defeat the king of hell by running up to Asmodeus and shouting "Asmodeus pls go."

And 55% of the time, Asmodeus will fuck off. Just like that.

The other 45% of the time, Asmodeus fails to recognise the paladin and assumes he is another demon. Then he fails to recognise himself.

>>24306269
>Let's go back to the "no skills on monster" beta issue

>>24306314
>it's a freaking beta

They're at least a year into development. They should have basic shit like this together by now, especially if they're expecting a 2014 release date.

>>24306301
Not my freaking native language. But you understood me, so it's not that bad, isn't it?

>>24306314
3.x and 3.5 used D20.
But they also didn't allow level one paladins to rule hell on a good roll of that D20
The random result generator isn't the problem. The system in which that device creates results is the problem.

>>24306339
They're going to give monsters skills in the final release, right?

Right...?

Surely they can't be THAT dumb, right?

>>24306314
Or do what I do for 3.X

Increasing your skill ranks increases the upper limit of what you're capable of doing. Anything superhuman is when you need to start rolling.

>>24306371
>dices
>not that bad
Dude, you even used the correct plural later in your post.
There is NO excuse for saying "dices"!
Next thing you know you'll be telling me you use coasters!!!

>>24306364
>They should have basic shit like this together by now
They had 4 classes for a fucking year. It's like they are developing this shit like a freaking hobby or something.

Anyway, if they haven't, we cannot say that it is broken, because, well, it is not a thing yet.

>>24306411
Well, it is when in your language any plural is just a single "s" after the singular form. I'm just used to say dice, and sometimes that "s" slip.

>>24306383
>Increasing your skill ranks increases the upper limit of what you're capable of doing. Anything superhuman is when you need to start rolling.

I kinda like this idea but do you change the amount of points you can put into a skill? Seems like being rank 3 right off the bat for anything would be stupid that way.

Post skill tiers?

>>24306059
Why? Because you say so? Not everyone has the retarded 4e hateboner that you think.

>>24306414
>hurrdurrr guise, it's just a playtest, y'know, like an Open Beta, stop pointing out it has flaws!!!

Isn't that like, y'know, the whole fucking point of an open beta...? To, y'know, like, point out the flaws...?

When did it become "praise everything they create even if it's broken"...?

>>24306453
it more stop acting like it's the end of the world

This one's in the archives with the other one now.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/24303985/

>>24306453

Marketers learned a long time ago that encouraging tribalistic brand loyalty pushes more units than making good products.

>>24306449
I recently had a topic discussing the Wish spell turn into an 4e hatestorm because I said something remotely positive about 4e.

He has every right to suspect hateboners everywhere.

>>24306379
The random result generator is a problem precisely because of this. When you compare results, like in that lvl 1 against lvl 20 roll, you are arraying from 1 to 20, when the modifier goes from 1 to 10. You are making the modifier irrelevant when you are giving them a freaking d20 in the first place. Now change that d20 for 3d4, making the trained skill trading 1d4 for 1d6. Now the numbers change a lot if the monster have +5 and the character +3. If the skill is mildly trained, the monster would roll a d10, and the character a d6. Now the probability is kind of little, isn't it?

>>24306453
One thing is to point out errors, other thing is to say "The skills in monsters doesn't work at all" when there is no skills in monsters AT ALL, and another thing is to create a freaking thread composed of about 12 messages pointing out why a system that hasn't been worked at all (lvl 20 skills) is horrible and will be horrible.

>>24306197

Yeah the problem is WotC does not realize that d20 opposed rolls with small modifiers are terrible because the die roll allows even the most incompetent individual to beat a highly skilled individual.

>>24306216

> Next is much better than 3.x

Pretty much any rpg other than FATAL is superior to 3e.

>>24306562
>"The skills in monsters doesn't work at all" when there is no skills in monsters AT ALL

There's no guarantee they're even going to give monsters skills.

>>24306614
Yeah. And on 3.x, the problem was that you had to have a freaking huge bonus to fix that, which turned out into stupid things.

I hope that they drop the d20 someday. But I know they won't, because having a d20 system makes them the owners of the d20 system, or something.

Why do they still use that shit again?

>>24306484
Actually most people are oddly amused by it. And appalled.
>>24306498
Fair point. I direct you here... >>24306227
>>24306521
The problem is the system.
Not the dice.
You won't be changing a D20 system from using D20. Don't even bother speculating on it.
>>24306562
We're saying the entire skill system doesn't work. Not just for monsters. For monsters and for players. It's fucked. It's fucked without lube. In the ass. With an Elder Black Dragon's Throbbing Clammy Lizardhood.

>>24306637
>They gave no skills to monsters, which means that they won't.

Does that mean that we won't have a bard on 5.0 neither?

>>24306657
>We're saying the entire skill system doesn't work.
It doesn't. But the examples given up there are horrible.

>>24306678
If WotC is so reluctant to create a warlord class...

>>24306654
Because if they dropped the d20 everyone would scream that IT'S NOT D&D ANYMORE significantly more than they already will.

>>24306379

3.X skills were still fucked. The problem is opposed rolls with a die size as big as d20. To fix this you either need to reduce the die size (d6 or d8) or greatly increase the numerical value of static bonuses.

>>24306707
But when they changed to d20 on advance, everybody complained, and not much happened. Why don't they change it to 3d6 so we can be happy again?

>>24306703
While horrible, they are mechanically sound. Which serves to highlight the problem of the mechanics.

It's a stabdard rhetorical technique to frame true facts with a touch of hyperbole. The hyperbole doesn't make the truth any less true, it just highlights it.

>>24306720
>3.X skills were still fucked.
So?
We're discussing 5e skills. They're fucked into oblivion. It doesn't matter how they measure against other skills. They don't make sense when compared against each other.

>>24306748
I have been convinced by you, kind sir. I won't stop my rubbish about the matter.

Anyway, how the hell do you think we/they could fix the issue without changing the d20? Because I see no way at all.

>>24306654

Yeah that's exactly right. The only way to fix opposed rolls is either d20 and huge mods or small die and small mods.

But they won't implement big mods because most people cannot into math and they won't change to a smaller die because hurr muh nostalgia.

>>24304315
>"Oh, the Lord of the Nine Hells? Tossed him in the lockup, we did. Shan't be getting out of that cell for a good, long while. Solid iron, those chains are."

Aren't devils weak to cold iron?

>>24306748
it's not hyperbole if it's the actual mechanical limit of the rules provided

>>24306786

Fae are weak against cold iron.

Do you even mythology?

>>24306782
Larger bonuses, or lower the DCs across the board for a start.

Though honestly, I'd say go back to the fucking drawing board.

Thankfully I'm not a game designer paid for over a year by a games company to make a workable system.

>>24306822

There's still the problem of opposed rolls where the d20 just fucks things up unless you have huge static bonuses.

>>24306877
that's why previous fellows were suggesting a 3d6 skill roll system

>>24306820

In D&D, demons are weak to cold iron. Devils are weak to silver. Cold iron seems to be general-purpose anti-chaos (including Fey and stuff from Limbo)... silver being good against Devils and Shapeshifters makes a little less sense, but that's how it is.

>>24306877
opposed rolls will always be very swingy. What I might try were I on the design team is the defender rolling 1d10+5 instead of a d20, much less random but still having the fun of an opposed roll, make rolls of 15-20 even more of a YEAH! moment.

>>24306812
No, but it's hyperbole because a lot of these situations wouldn't crop up because logic.

Is it reasonable to asusme, for example, that a level one Paladin could meet Asmodeus to talk him down from his throne? Would any DM rule that Asmodeus canot possibly recognise his generals OR himself because RAW say so?

No. Of course not. But these ansurd situations highlight the problem with the rules.

The two least absurd situations that highlight the rules for straight 1-20 play are right here, IMO - >>24305350
>one skill monkey can talk the lord of hell out of ruling his domain 94% of the time with a lame excuse, and another skill monkey can accomplish a task that even real expert rope climbers can accomplish only 25% of the time.

Yeah. When we are talking about static DCs, the d20 works as some kind of d100, which is not bad. The only problem is with opposed rolls.

Comparing stats, and rolling only the skill die if trained? That could work.

>>24306911
>>24306877
Actually there just seems to be one very vocal dude who wants 3D6.

>>24306922
"Stop, you aren't allowed into Lord Asmodeus' throne!"
"Yes I am."*bluff check*
'Well ok then, go ahead."

>>24306962
Because they are awesome.

And because I have nothing else to do.

I find 3d6 too curved. 1d20 is really flat, but 3d6 is so curved that it feels hardly different than just comparing raw scores and not rolling at all. How about 2d10?

I think I would set it up as a skill challenge. 5 successes before two failures. Other PC's could help the paladin for advantage, but since they aren't unflappable they would have to give actual reasons.

>>24307017
2d10 pyramids hard - you'd have a glut of ~10 results, ie. every takes 10. You're more likely to get higher median results with 3d6

>>24307044
that's a lot of rolling for a single skill-check

>>24306990
Dude, with unflappable he could claim HE IS ASMODEUS and 94% of the time would succeed. Hell, he could walk up to Asmodeus and say; "You're Not Asmodeus, I am!!! You're an imposter!! Look!!" then proceed to show Asmodeus a Mirror.

It would work. It would not only work but Asmodeus would find it impossible to identify himself.

File: 1366250279931.jpg-(25 KB, 379x214, I am ok with this rainbow(...).jpg)

25 KB JPG

>>24303985
Awesome, harkening back to 1st and 2nd edition a bit here.

>>24306911

I don't like 3d6 because it makes it much harder to balance. A +1 bonus can either be almost worthless or amazing depending on how skilled you already are.

>>24304204
>And yes, I have sent this as playtest feedback.
Oh, okay. This answers the question I was going to ask. Here's hoping they take your input into consideration and tweak the skills system.

>>24306919

I think just switching to a smaller die is better. Opposed d6 rolls with current bonus sizes are much more elegant.

But of course, there's the problem of grognards and muh nostalgia.

>>24307048
It's not actually as bad as you think, 3d6 is smoother but it's not as big a deal as you'd think.
http://anydice.com/program/1388

>>24306917
silver isnt even inert, so having it effect things that are naturally very reactive like shapeshifters is odd. I dont get devils. If anything it should be gold that does it. It's naturally inert and causes chaos among people so it has a symbolic reason to affect both.

>>24307132
i think it's just a preference between the swinginess of d20 or the regularity of 3d6

>>24307131
Maybe you should read the thread.

>>24307131

D&D marketing pls go

or maybe you're just a retard who can't grasp how shit 5e's skill system is.

>>24306917
>>24307182
I beleive the point of Silver is that it's seen as "pure" and so the chaotic, changing forms of shapeshifters or whatever are less able to cope with it.

>>24307228
even then chemically it is never really found pure ever.

>>24307173
That's like I thought the skill die system worked the first time I saw it: you rolled that die (when it went from 1d4 to 1d12), and added your bonuses to that.

I think that could be cool. Like, you roll 1d4 for untrained. Whenever you train a skill, you progress it 1 category at a time. At lvl 1, you learn 4 skills, meaning that in those you would roll 1d6 instead of 1d4. Then, at given levels, you could train some skills. You could train new ones, or old ones, getting the old ones to 1d8. You could have 2 skills at 1d12, 4 skills at 1d8, and 6 skills at 1d6 at lvl 15, for instance.

And the Paladin, though he was little more then a common man with a sword an a cause, saw the suffering of the people. And at the request of the elders, went to speak with Asmodeus and beg the cause of the people.

And so he went into the depths of hell, where he was stopped many times, but every time the demons came before him he told them of his mission, and they found themselves unable to deny him.

Thus he came to Asmodeus and stood before the King of Hell on his throne and said
"Asmodeus, Please go."

And the Lord of Demons simply laughed.

Again the Paladin said
"Asmodeus, Please go."
And Asmodeus, high on his chair and secure in his position, took an interest, and asked the Paladin why he should do this. To which the Paladin replied;
"Asmodeus, Please Go."

He of Eternal Fire an damnation now took offense and looked the Paladin in the eye. The Paladin felt true fear then. His strength drained from his limbs, his movement sluggish. But he took faith in his cause and his righteousness, unflappable in his determination, and said
"Asmodeus, Please Go."

Asmodeus whiped his demons into a frenzy at this, the twisted abominations cavorting, their unbreakable iron chains rattling. But the Paladin saw this as no disadvantage, for his faith kept him strong. And through the demonic fesitivities he pleaded
"Admodeus, Please Go."

And Asmodeus stopped, confused that a mere mortal could do all this, and asked, in true bewilderment where a slip of a man got such courage, hoping that he could learn of valor and strength. But the Paladin only said
"Asmodeus, Please, Go!"

And Asmodeus looked into the man's heart and saw that it was strong, and pure. He knew that if he cast him into the flames the unflappable Paladin would never cow, and never surrender. And at the and of eternity there would still remain himself, and this Paladin. Asmodeus hesitated, wondering what had come before him. At this faltering the Paladin roared
"ASMODEUS, PLEASE GO!"

So Asmodeus left.

>>24304233
Oh for the love of fuck, are they doing those stupid cardboard cutouts without class levels again?
And here I was starting to get my hopes up. Le sigh.

>>24307258
But silver has always been considered "Pure". In a mythological and folkloric way.

>>24307261
So... Savage Worlds?

My sides have achieved orbit.

>>24307275
I "hope" that they are doing that because they haven't defined monster progression yet. But dear god, they are horrible right now. Interesting monsters, sure, but totally arbitrary.

>>24307062
Convincing Asmodeus to leave hell should take more then one skill check. It should take a night over drinks and calm debate.

>>24307266
I award you the entire internet. Wonderful stuff.

>>24307266
That sounds like an Adventure Time episode.

>>24307266

And people say it sucks to be a level 1 character.

>>24307326
The Bluffadin is actually Finn...?
FUCK, now it makes senses!!
5e is trying to be Adventure Time!
Suddenly all is forgiven. All these whacky mechanics are suddenly so meaningful and deliberate.

Can't we just get it FIXED?
The DCs are too high, but that's all they are: too high. If they were lowered so as to actually fit, that would be one problem fixed.

As for opposed checks, that does require a bit more effort. There's a REASON that situational modifiers exist, and just advantage/disadvantage won't make enough sense with some things as shown in the examples above.

So why not skill-die degradation?
If you'd have reason to give a double disadvantage, the skill die type drops by two steps. If this would take the skill die below zero, you now roll -1d4.

2d20 drop the highest -1d4 +- stat makes your odds against ol'Deus up there a lot worse.

Similarly, multi-advantages could increase die type by two steps, adding +1d4 instead if it would grow beyond d12.

>>24305447
>They'd have to be clever and find some sort of method to break them

Dis-/Advantage doesn't scale. You can have 15 different things working in your favor - rusty iron, a wedge bar, a door to sling the irons over, whatever else you can imagine to work to your advantage - it doesn't stack.

>>24304342

>Campaign where players are all various deities/devils in college

FUCKING FUND IT

>>24307187
I did, and I am pleased.

>>24307266
>Asmodeus whiped his demons into a frenzy at this, the twisted abominations cavorting, their unbreakable iron chains rattling.

You mean Asmodeus tries to, but fails 45% of the time.

>>24307461
Well, it doesn't help that they have no idea who he is.

>>24307448
You must be reading a different thread to his one then, unless you mean you're amused by how broken the skill system is. That I can understand. But to imply you're happy with it...?

>>24307461
Ran out of characters.Didn't want to break it up.

>>24307434
But school settings are awful. That's a bad idea and you should feel bad.

>>24307092
however, asmodeus himself could convince him too with counterarguments not-much-more-often right?

Sounds to me like a social combat track like in WFRP3 would do the trick here.

>>24307481
dude, he doesn't know who he is. What fucking hope does his army have?

It's like the whole of the nine hells are locked in a constant existential crisis...

>>24306056

>Wizards
>"Playtesting"
>Implying this shit isn't already printed up in some warehouse ready to be shipped at any moment

Welcome to how Wizards operates.

>>24307092
Who's Asmodeus ? You guys have been talking about that Asmodeus guy for a while now.

>>24307505

THEY CAN BE GOOD I SWEAR (at least for one shots or short campaigns)

>>24307526
Lord of the Nine Hells, the most powerful Devil (i.e. Lawful Evil outsider) in DnD

>>24307516
I do not understand. Could you elaborate?

>>24307505
Yo shut the hell up.

I had a school arc during one of my games. It was a floating school for adventurers. The hall monitor eventually became a recurring character because the players loved him so much.

A good DM can make any setting work.

>>24307510
Asmodeus wouldn't be able to convince the bluffadin of shit. As far as Asmodeus is concerned, he ISN'T Asmodeus, he just looked in a mirror and saw some demon thing, but he has no idea who it is. But Asmodeus himself just walked in and explained the situation.

>>24307516
Then why do they keep changing things? Like ripping out martial damage die?

This is most certainly an unfinished product, unless you think it's a conspiracy?

>>24307546
I don't get it. Who ?

>>24307568
They got rid of martial damage dice...?
I liked those... :(

>>24307588
He's an important guy. You wouldn't recognize him though.

>>24307222
You pick a handful of skill that you will be moderately inept at rather than completely inept. It is a classic, and your tears will be delicious.

As is your belief that a level 20 character should be able to do impossible things unaided.

>>24307588
Awww, shit guys, it's a DC 30 check. He'll never understand who Asmodeus is... In fact, how the fuck do I know who Asmodeus is...?

>>24304342
With 40 hours, he can simply take 20, unless under pressure (Such as being in the middle of an exam.)

>>24307556
He's probably referring in some way to the infamous Pathfinder playtest. It was a very public playtest of the rules that they quietly ignored when actually designing the game. But the publicity from that gave people the impression that Paizo was pretty saintly, so it boosted sales.

There as been a lot of conjecture that Next is doing the same thing, along with all the other Pathfinder-esque things it's doing. And some of the more bizarre rules changes between packets might point to some truth in this idea. Same with some of the ridiculous polls they've had.

>>24307616
you must have written it down previo--

OH MY GOD 5e IS MEMENTO

>>24307616
Holy crap, we're got some kind of over-god on /tg/!

>>24307616
Do what with who now?