>I guess I just dislike what Tolkien did to fantasy.
You dislike that he made it?

>>25350829
Make your own setting then and use your idea.

I'm personally a fan of the traditional tolkien-esque fantasy. But my favorite fantasy setting ever is Elder Scrolls, I wish there was an entire world of tabletop material for it.

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There was an arc in Prince Valiant where he came across the last surviving band of neanderthals somewhere in Germany. It was actually pretty sad, since they were all perfectly intelligent and had art and knew exactly what was happening.

Also, Quest for Fire is one of my favorite movies.

Otherwise, I dunno.

>>25350860
It's not what he did, hit's that nearly all of fantasy seems to use his arch-types.

>>25350878

I agree. I wish people would have imitated Robert E Howard's take on fantasy instead.

They'd just be a stronger, smarter human. OP.

>>25350867
An Elder Scrolls tabletop has always been one of my most desperate wishes.

>>25350913
>stronger
Probably.

>smarter
Not really.

Most of their brain power was occupied by their optical system, which was like four times better than ours. But, in addition to taking up brain power, it also meant that they required almost twice as many calories per day as we do, which made them hard to sustain.

>>25350927
Fuck it, let's make one

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Dwarves are fine and all, but I just felt they lacked some realism and science. I don't want my settings to be hard sci-fi or anything like it, I would like for there to be some decent explanations and stuff given on races anatomy and physiology.

>>25350913
Untrue, Sapiens would be much more social and faster. In terms of intelligence, they're thought to be similar to us, a little lower I think.

>>25351006
There is one /tg/ is trying to make. It's called Scrollhammer. Look it up.

Maybe /tg/ could help me make a Neanderthal culture?

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>>25350878
Meh, they're basically just re-using the names and some superficial characteristics. By today's standards Tolkien's works would be more of a Viking age low magic fantasy than "Tolkienesque standard fantasy".

>>25350908
Meaning that the superficial trappings of his work would have been mercilessly copied and diluted the bland nothingness.

>>25350860

Apparently Fritz Lieber and Robert E. Howard and fucking anyone decent published in Weird Tales around the time of or even pre-dating The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings don't count ...

... because they don't have elves and orcs and goblins.

Which means your argument that Tolkien invented fantasy basically has to hinge around defining fantasy narrowly as things that at least take their cues from Tolkien, which I hope I don't have to explain why is illogical.

Robert E. Howard actually does feature and reference (fantastical, presumably, though possibly similar to some real ones--I don't really believe we've found them all, given recent discoveries) prehistoric hominids, as does Algernon Blackwood, quite a lot, and of course Lovecraft (cf "Pickman's Model"), though the latter two are considered horror rather than fantasy despite the huge amount of overlap.

If you mean hominids that really existed, well, they aren't fantastical, though fantasy can feature them--it probably doesn't because they're not particularly fantastical, however.

You could interpret the giants in Song of Ice and Fire that way for example, but they don't really conform to any known hominids in a scientifically accurate way. Hypothetically they could have existed, but e.g. gigantopithicus wasn't that smart and probably could never develop a language or use not-completely-improvised tools.

>>25350829
>I guess I just dislike what Tolkien did to fantasy.

If you don't like fantasy, why even read it? Sage for feeding the troll. 3/10, I responded.

Wasn't there evidence that Neanderthals aged twice as fast as humans?

Could be an important detail in a potential setting.

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>>25351033
"Superficial similarities"?? No, Elves are still the mary-sues they were when Tolkien made them, only a little tone-downed, Orcs are still barbarians who go around fucking shit up, Dwarves haven't changed at all, and there's still a big bad who's 100% super-duper evil. Fuck.

Now iv'e got this weird theory that I came up with after watching "The Thirteenth Warrior". The basic premise of the movie is that a small group of Viking warriors is put in charge of the defence of a small village in the far north. This village is constantly raided and attacked by these tribal primitives that look and act essentially like cavemen. They even worship some caveman fertility goddess.

Then, a few months later I read some random article that posited the idea that there were small tribes of Neanderthals that survived in isolation well into the early dark ages. That made me think of the tribal savages from thirteenth warrior, and then I got thinking how orcs and elves are originally from Norse mythology. Then it hit me.

Orcs are based on Norse experiences with Neanderthals!

So every time you see an Orc, just imagine him as a caveman.

>>25351033
>Meaning that the superficial trappings of his work would have been mercilessly copied and diluted the bland nothingness.

I like the trappings of the Hyborian age more than the trappings of Middle Earth though. Hyborian age is badass and Middle Earth is kinda fruity by comparison.

>>25350829
'Primitive races' appear in Howard's work, and hence, also in Frazetta's art. There are some unfortunate racial implications one could make about that fact, but really, orcs are drawn from the same set of inspirations, even if they have been made more fantastical. I imagine the reason they made them green-skinned was so it wouldn't be read as a 'dumb, strong, dark-skinned race' thing.

>>25350860
>Thinking Tolkien created fantasy
>Being this naive about the long and storied history of the genre

Come on man, Dunsany, Eddison, and Howard were doing this stuff a half-century before Tolkien. Plus, Tolkien's 'reinvention' was just a distillation of the Norse Eddas. The same year as the first LOTR book came out, Poul Anderson wrote 'The Broken Sword', which featured distant, high elves, deep-delving dwarves, a broken sword that must be reforged (and which is an evil artifact), an epic battle between good and evil, half elves, and a central character stuck between the two worlds of good and evil, man and magic. Tolkien gets more credit than he deserves.

>>25350829
Is it just me or does that Neanderthal look a bit like Vin Diesel?

>>25351088
In Eaters of the Dead it's heavily implied the savages are relic Neaderthals.

>>25351041
Of all of Lovecraft's works, why choose Pickman's Model as an example of his fantasy, when The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath is a much better example of fantasy.

>>25351093
So better not to ruin it by overcopying.

Also, read up on Feanor and Fingolfin.

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Because relevant

Wikipedia's map of areas of Neanderthal habitation!

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The Autumn tt wargame project has nine human 'Eidon' for its races. Each one has several sub forms, picture is just of the one Eidon that correlates with what we'd call white.

Its important to note that race doesn't define ideological affiliation in anything that has different sentient races. Even Tolkien had different elvan nations/kingdoms and men that ranged from Dale (?) to Rhun.

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>>25351235
> MELKOR! You thieving piece of SHIT!

>>25351044

There's nothing wrong with not liking the fact that fantasy has essentially become "Generic sword-and-sorcery with the same Tolkienien races over and over again."

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It doesn't just have to Neanderthals, it could be ape-men!

>>25351523
what about the small 3-4' tall monkey men, the really early hominids.

>>25351500

I know, I know...it's hard to ignore them sometimes.

>>25351551
Australopithecus? Or the hobbits on Flores?

I mostly look at history (IE old ass documents), so I've got some questions for you anthropologists out there:
* Was it true that most people a long time ago were way shorter on average?
* Do we think Neanderthals could have or did mate with primitive humans?
* and Did we all come from Africa?
I've done a bit of research on these things and there are an awful lot of conflicting assertions.

>>25351727
1.Depends, modern man was around 5'5 on average 10,000 years ago, and 5'7 20,000.
2. Neanderthals did mate with Sapiens.
3. Yes, we all come from the same group that left Africa 100,000 years ago. The multi-regional hypothesis is incorrect, as is the Out of Africa one that states 60,000 years ago.

>>25350829
They've got them in the D&D expansion Frostburn as a player race. Also I think the Marat in Codex Alera are supposed to be descended from Neanderthals (more directly than the human Alerans).

>>25351727
>Was it true that most people a long time ago were way shorter on average?
There is evidence of rather large humanoids as well, but for the most part our stature is a more recent development that comes from having plentiful nutrition and a preference for taller men.

> Do we think Neanderthals could have or did mate with primitive humans?
We know we did, people have neanderthal DNA in them. I heard asians lack any neanderthal DNA while Aboriginals have DNA of Denisovans in them.

>and Did we all come from Africa?

>>25351577
yeah austrolophithecus africanus, homo habilis, you know, those transition periods. they were all pretty small in size,

Its easy to imagine a small villiage based in tree house dwellings and using their slight frame, good dexterity to move around in the canopy of an old growth jungle.

using blow pipes as weapons (smaller ones so that it doesn't get caught in the branches.)

any sort of pygmy humans could work too.

>>25350874

William Golding, author of Lord of the Flies, wrote a book from the point of view of the neanderthals in a similar situation. "The Inheritors", well worth reading.

Forgot the last one.

Yes we did. The oldest remains of humans is found there and all anthropological evidence points towards humanity expanding from that region. Doesn't mean we know 100% where and when we migrated, but its rather conclusive.

>>25351088

In the book they were neanderthals. They changed it for the film because they feared that american audiences would not know what neaderthals were.

>>25351897

>We know we did, people have neanderthal DNA in them.

We're not so sure of that anymore. The latest research leans more towards both neanderthals and modern man developing from an earlier north-african population.

>>25352021
> The latest research leans more towards both neanderthals and modern man developing from an earlier north-african population.

Incorrect, Sapiens and Neanderthals split off 400,000 years ago from Heidelbergensis.

>>25351058
Yeah, they hit full adulthood at around 15 years.
>>25350986 they were actually around our intelligence (at the time), it's just that taking the extra time to mature allowed humans to learn more, which allowed us to invent better ways to waste Krog and take his sweet-ass cave for our own. And snu-snu with his wife.
And we sure as hell did with any Denisovans we found.

>>25351727
people were shorter on average like 100 years ago. though thats partly due to nutrition. (easy access to fresh fruits and vegetables all year long can do that to a species)

also many of the "missing link" species that are generally thought to be human ancestors are much smaller (and get smaller the older you go)

2. pretty sure there's some fossil evidence that might point to it. considering that people today mate with anything i wouldn't be surprised. nothing to do all day, following a mammoths trail for days, and you stumble upon a neanderthal woman, sure she might look dumb and be hairier than normal but her tits are just as soft and its a long way back to your cave. Its easy to think they'd pass the time.

3. yes, you can see where and when people spread by the dates of fossil record and all the oldest human fossils come from africa. and most of the other early hominids also come from africa, a lot more than anywhere else in the world (and in many cases the evidence points out that they also migrated out of africa.

It also makes sense considering the traits of african monkeys and how the type of terrain and its change would help the evolution along.

>>25350829
Good Christ, the Neanderthal looks like a construction worker.

Anyone else ever read H.G Wells take on early hominid-human encounters? "The Grizzly Men" I think.

It was totally inaccurate, portraying Neanderthals as bogeymen-like beastmen who can't look upwards, but was going off of horribly antiquated information.

However, it was interesting: Neanderthals as inhumane minds with child-stealing tendencies and a passion for killing people unawares. Really foreign and alien.

>>25352199
He reminds me of Vin Diesel

>>25352199
Slap a fedora on, and you have someone from the mafia.

>>25350829
is that vin diesel?

>>25351523
That picture is part of that hogwash theory that you can't reconstruct neanderthals like humans. My favorite argument from it was "Looks scary? It was our nemesis!" Fucking perfect example of placing presumption before science.

>>25352150
The maturing speed would make a difference in the long run. It's still amazing thinking about it, especially seeing a baby horse or pig walk minutes after being born.

Would they have been human like or covered with fur?

>>25350927

Friend of mine made an elder scrolls savage worlds conversion not terribly long ago.

>I guess I just dislike what Tolkien did to fantasy.

You mean invent it?

Read the Malazan Book of the Fallen. It has the T'lan Imass, basically a race of neanderthals who made their entire species immortal and undead to fight tyrant wizards.

>>25350829
I've been writing a setting where the orcs are basically neanderthals, who survived this world's ice age and well into a medieval period of development for the humans. Explains why they can cross-breed. Not sure how elves and dwarves fit in yet though.

>>25354124
whoops, not OP btw

>>25354031
Jump off a bridge.

>>25351727
>Was it true that most people a long time ago were way shorter on average?
Yes and no. Pre-agricultural humans were about the same height on average as we are now. The also had much better nutrition and more leisure time than most people up to about a 100 years ago.

Post agricultural people did tend to be smaller this is because grain and many other farmed foods while giving a higher calorie yield for calorie expended give a lower nutritional yield than meat, fish and wild vegetables.

>>25350829
Palentologist here.
This is relevant to your interests.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZbmywzGAVs

>>25354288
Yeah, that's a load of horseshit. The guy doesn't even have a degree in any field for making up shit like that, he was a theatre director.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/06/19/neandertals-were-monsters/

Short but good takedown.

>>25354288
>>25355273
Much better takedown here.
http://sciblogs.co.nz/bioblog/2010/10/31/killer-neandertals-does-this-one-really-stack-up/

The chief thing is that Neandertals made clothing which would not be necessary had they been furry assholes.

First time posting on /tg/.

Not sure I understand you, OP. Tolkien included a sort of Neanderthal race in his writings - the Drúedain. No offense intended, but if you have complaints about the state of fantasy literature then you should be pointing to authors in whose writings creativity and originality is absent.

>>25355273
Thank you.

>>25355322
Thank you.
But as long as we're on the subject, I think we can all come together in support of the 'Aquatic Ape' hypothesis, which is 100% verifiably not pseudoscience

>>25351010

no humans, you are the elves

then the neanderthals went extinct

>>25350829
Because the jews don't want the goy to make the connection between Homo erects and the black man.

>>25352251
I was jsut about to post the same thing before I read the responses.

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>>25356099

>>25356457
>Being offended by racism
>On 4chan of all places
Jude go home

>>25350867
Elder Scrolls is great. What is your favorite?

>>25351088
Orcs are not based on Norse Mythology at all.

Orcs are old English Demonfolk who live in the woods and raid towns.

Elves, Dwarves, haflings, and Orcs are hominids depending on the setting. It's likely DnD Elves are just humans who evolved into fae due to magical influence.

>>25353790
Oh yeah that was hilarious.

It completely throws out the thing that Humans and neanderthals could breed, and were probably not all that hostile with each other.

>>25356508
Everyone knows Morrowind was the best elderscrolls so far.

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>>25356529
My n'wah.

Dunmer, best mer.

>>25356099
You do know neandertals did not live in africa right?

They exclusively lived in the European area.

>>25356516
I always have Elves, Dwarves Halflings, Ogres and Orcs as hominids to explain half breeding.

Last game I did the adventuerers found ANCIENT ALIEN ruins that proved they all were genetically altered from the human base billions of years ago to each fill a different role in a large mega society.

Elves = Magic users and historians.
Dwarves = laborers and craftsmen.
Halflings = cooks, farmers and traders
Orcs = Army and Police force.
Ogres = physical labor and architecture.

Neanderthalers are one of the 3 main races in my Dark-Age-fantasy-with-maily-east-european-cultures.

Even after all these years, the blood of Gronn (which they are commonly refered to) still runs strong, and they are known for their great strength and survivability in harsh climates.

Oh, and their society is greek-based. As is most of the setting (East European mostly, with Mongorian Elves and Hussar Centaur)

>>25356485
>being racist
>in all seriousness

>>25356610

I have, sort-of, the same thing. After the Orcs and Gronn where created, They (godlings) made the Humans.

They liked the humans so well, that they created several variants of them (Pygmees, Gnomes, Dwarfs) who would beter survive in other climates.

Elfs where Fey who changed their forms so they could connect with/understand mortals. Eventually this caused them to become mortal as well.

>>25356590
In fact, the reason white people have so many differnt hair colors is because we fucked the neanderthals until gingers and blondes popped out.

Jim Butcher's Codex Alera kind of uses cave men, but they're more cave-elves, tapped in to nature and totems and all that bullshit

It's vin diesel!

I think Neanderthals are statted in GURPS (like a lot of things). There's also a modernized Neanderthal biomorph in Eclipse Phase.

>>25355510
Yea, no. The Aqautic Ape hypothesis is completely fucking debunked by modern paleontology. We are a savannah ape that never lost its bipedalness. This is the current consesus based on genetics and fossils.

>>25356833
>suspiciously specific denial

good work on sarcasm

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Neanderthals are already in D&D.

>>25356872
sorry, ive met to many people who are complete idiots about that kind of thing. its kind of a relief to know you dont subscribe to that idiocy.

>>25356893
And here I was hoping, one day, I could devolve into a fish. I live for nothing.

>>25356910
Just wait for the transhumanists to perfect day mods so you acn slap on a patch that makes you a fish for a day. Then you can be the inner fish youve always wanted to be.

>>25356936
In Eclipse Phase, there is actually a body you can be sleeved into that is a fish. Koi if I'm remembering correctly.

>>25356948
eclipse phase is neat

>>25356880
That's racist!

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>>25356880

>>25351163
I thought the same fucking thing, Anon. Vin Diesel fantasy race is go.

>>25357024
>>25357037
Fucking neanderthals and their love of anvils.

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Neaderthals look quite close to the popular concetion of dwarves.

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>>25357155

>>25357231
>>25357155
No... fucking way.

So there really is a reason there are no half-dwarves, you mix and you get, a Human.

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>>25357242
i still cant believe people dont think neanderthals were what we nerds call dwarfs, i came upon this realization like a decade ago.

>>25357294
So if you shave a dwarf you get Vin diesel?

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>>25357294

>>25357306
yeah, pretty much, Vin Diesel with large nose.

>>25357294
Except Neanderthals apparently were very slow, low energy hunters that relied heavily on ambush tactics to get food. They also had to eat about twice as much as we do. All adaptations for the cold. So they may have looked like dwarves, but they were very slow, plodding, conservative creatures.

>>25357294
>dat file name
I once came up with an idea for a low fantasy novel, where dwarves were actually Neanderthals, Orcs were kinda just a more violent off shoot of Homo Erectus, and Elves were a newly emerged more evolved form of humans... But I'm lazy and couldn't figure where to go with it other than the setting.

>>25357231
Oh god...
That sapien looks like Eddie Lizard.

>>25357331

I'm fairly certain that dwarves are usually also portrayed as slow and conservative.

>>25357331
So they kinda just hung out, lacked grace/subtlety, ate a shit load, and were set in there ways? Totally not Dorfs.

>>25357331
And a dwarf isnt slow and plodding, with a 20 ft movement rate. Isnt their culture pretty conservative? Take a Neanderthal and give it gods and magic and a great love of caves,which neaderthals have commonly been found at, and viola: dwarves.

>>25357353
you should see the original pic, that dwarf is Hung.

>>25357331
So Dwarves. Seriously think about it, there's a reason Dwarvish Beer is supposedly heartier than the beer of anyone else (more calories), and remember of the near man sized races, they tend to be less, speedy than any of the others.

Besides imagine the Neanderthals getting past the neolithic, you can't tell me they wouldn't fucking build forges everywhere.

>>25351897

The only people who lack Neanderthal DNA are African tribes in in the far south of the continent. All other peoples around the world picked up Neanderthal DNA when they moved out of Africa.

so lets take stock of what paleontology has given us: Dwarves-neanderthals, Hobbits-floriensis, and possibly elves-denisovans who would be delicious chocolate elves according to genetic sequencing.

>>25357440
or i forgot that denisovans could be orcs.

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>>25352021

It's pretty widely accepted that modern humans do have Neanderthal DNA. I haven't read any recent papers that argue otherwise.

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>>25350829

I can provide the stats >>25351886 mentioned if you are playing 3.5.

See pic for details. Includes race info, and primitive weapons.

>>25357489
Silly, thats not the pages for dwarves at all.

>>25357440
>>25357450

Why not both? And now you're thinking of Papuan-Abroginal Half-Elfs/Orcs

So what colour do you think neanderthals were?
Obviously it's unlikely any were black, but would they have been white, or would they have been yellow or brown and simply ate shitloads of fish?

>>25357375
I always thought of dwarves as being very energetic, loud, boisterous and aggressive. Not slow, quiet and methodical. Whatever fits your head canon.

>>25357592
White in the wider sense, or as in Caucasian European?

If the first yes (probably closer to current mideasterners), if the second, no.

>>25357592
well, you could look at the images that have been posted, because those are based on genetic studies about what their skin looked like.

>>25357600
well, if your well fed, and having fun with firends, yeah you can loud and boisteroious, and aggressive, but you wont be all the time.

>>25357478
Well, people of pure African descent don't. But that's about it.

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>>25357592

>>25357640
Wow Tordek really let himself go.

>>25357640
Well, modern (purely native) Africans are likely way blacker than our common African ancestors. And it's probably safe to assume Asians generally have less N.DNA than Europeans. And they range from kind of dark to holy shit you are pale. So I'd imagine Neanderthals, especially being adapted for living in an ice age, were pretty fucking white, naturally, but easily tanned from snow glare, breaks in weather, etc. Pale skin is a little more adaptable than dark skin, and severe climate changes were pretty common at the time, especially up north from where protohumanity was first dicking around.

>>25357640
Grandpa?

>>25357489
Thanks dude!

>>25357489
That bone bow is pants on head retarded. Bone bows were in fact composite bows made of layers of wood and horn, antler or bone. How the fuck is that thing supposed to even work I mean it even has joints.

>>25350829
Well in Malazan, there's a race of undead neanderthals who generally kick ass and are the progenitors of human civilization.

>>25350874
I fucking loved that arc.

I generally love PV.

>>25360028
good point. we regret to inform you, however, that you are being sent to an autism fema camp to be burned in an oven. good day.

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>>25350829
Barbarian fantasy races like orcs are the equivalent to cavemen.

Pulpy sword-and-sorcery material such as Howard's Conan have plenty of such races.

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>>25356099
Here's the typical Wizards of the Coast employee

captcha: swindling outidsi

>>25356099
>Homo Erectus discovered in Asia
>NIGGERS!!!

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>>25351163

>>25360209
>doesnt even read the thread
>posts silly argument that cavemen are orks, even though they look nothing alike

>>25351084
I take it you're one of those folks whose limit of actually reading Tolkien was when you read The Hobbit in 6th grade?

>>25360268
thats not a homo neaderthalus. thats a homo zinjanthropus and a horrible rendition to boot.

the more i look at it the more it seems to look like some smug asshole.

>>25351084
Tolkien elves are hardly Mary sues, because they deserve their position.
Like the other races are being tested in the Hobbit and LoTR, they were in acient times. They faced the test of failure (When Morgoth took to himself to kick their asses as throughly as possible. Case in point fucking Gondolin) the tests of success (when they eventually got over their pride) Etc.
They're better people by the standards Iluvatar set to them so now they get to travel to the west, Heaven on earth.
They're us humans when we'll put our shit together and start caring about better things than survival and immediate profit, this is why they get to live in an utopia and get to be better than you at everything.

Other autors Made them into Mary Sues, removing the books of backstory in wich they grow to be what they are. So you get hubristic Mary sue elves that still have to enjoy their Gondolin or their battle of unnumerable tears and never do because to most autors they don't need character grow to go along with their superpowers.

>>25360292
To be honest the Silmarilion is a ridiculously dry read and some of the other material borderline reads like an academic edition of lost texts.

>>25360310
I know, I just saved it because it's a great reaction image.

>>25350860

> Tolkien made fantasy

Confirmed retard.

>>25360310
You mirin' my no-forehead aesthetics?

>>25351486
>"Generic sword-and-sorcery with the same Tolkienien races over and over again."

Tolkien and the sword & sorcery genre have very little in common. Elves and dwarves usually don't exist in sword & sorcery.

>>25360358
small horrible epiphany: Leno's ancestor.

Are there any significant other branches of hominids, besides the obvious neanderthals? No time travel, it isn't a race unless it has branched off, no using cavemen as a "race."

>>25357345

> more evolved

I don't think you understand how evolution works

>>25360376
Ergaster is debatable
Floriensis
Heidelbergensis again, debatably (iirc it's mostly a matter of people not being sure whether it's a subspecies, or just a Sapiens/Neanderthalian)

>>25360376
Homo floriensis (hobbits)
Denisovans
Boskop men

>>25360319
Yeah, but even in LOTR the elves are hardly Mary Sues. They frequently get indignant and prissy (like when Legolas had to have a bag over his head when they first arrived in Lorien). It's the imitators that turned them into inscrutable master race Mary Sues.

>not having orks or some other big race as gigantopithecus

It's like you don't really want an interesting setting.

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>>25360376

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>>25360454

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>RAH RAH I HATE TOLKIEN BECAUSE EVERYONE ELSE RECYCLES HIS IDEAS
>THAT BASTARD HOW DARE HE DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT AT THE TIME
>I SHOULD GET MAD AT HIM INSTEAD OF THE PEOPLE WHO CAN'T BE ARSED TO COME UP WITH THEIR OWN IDEAS

>>25360560
>>25360454
Gigantopithecus is always my go-to giant humanoid race.

>>25360536
>>25360560

Based off these 2 images, which traditional/core fantasy races are which hominids?

Who's who in prehistoric DnD?

We need a name for our setting, I'm thinking Caves and Creatures, or CnC.

>>25360310
For added smugness, I had a prof who usually suggested as a joke that Neanderthalians, if they learned english, would probably sound like boston brahmins.

>>25360668
Mutants and Machetes.

>>25360605
>lol lets just pump out another tolkein ripoff, thats what those nerds want right?
>What, you want something new like a dragon man or a living construct, to bad, only variations on human ripped from tolkein for you.

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>>25360668

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>>25360752
That last one should be renamed "prehistoric feels".

>>25357478
>>25357411
>>25360393
>>25360403

Can someone source some of this stuff? Moreso the first two.

>MFW Tolkien thread becomes paleontology thread

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>>25360774

>>25350829
>what Tolkien did to fantasy.


I have yet to see another fantasy world where orcs are elves

>>25360716
>using Dragonborn, Warforged or Shardmind as examples
>acting like the people who made those things hated them
>players almost universally lost their shit over something non-Tolkien being included and hated Dragonborn simply because 4e

The reason Tolkien's ideas have been so pervasive is because people tend to like them. That doesn't excuse the lack of creativity, but it doesn't make it Tolkien's fault. People are content to read/buy/play Tolkien knockoffs and authors are content to create them, because the fact is anything else is usually deemed "too weird" for people to like.

>>25360794
Elder Scrolls orcs are elves that were cursed.

>>25360775
>Can someone source some of this stuff?
Something wrong with your Internet?

>>25360775
http://www.livescience.com/15754-neanderthals-immunity-boost-humans.html
http://www.livescience.com/16010-neanderthal-human-sex-interbreeding-offspring.html
http://www.livescience.com/9910-humans-neanderthals-mated-making-part-caveman.html
http://discovermagazine.com/2013/march/14-interbreeding-neanderthals#.UbYhjufVA7s

There. Now dont ever complain that i didnt do something for ya.

>>25360752
Poor guy, stumbling into the wrong neighborhood

>>25360852
I don't know the difference between good paleontology and bad?

>>25360878
LOVE

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>>25360922

>>25357489
If Neanderthals were still around this would have been so offensive

>>25360668

>homo sapien as elf - tall, thin, hairless, tools/magic
>homo erectus as mankind - shorter, stockier, hairier than elves, some tools
> homo floriensis as halflings - small, mostly hairless compared to mankind, small tools
>homo neanderthlas as dorfs - hairy, big brows, best tools small to mankind
>that huge guy second from the right as orks, like mankind but bigger, hairier, maybe less smart

In >>25360560, g. blacki as dumb giant beastmen, g. giganteus as smaller beastmen, hang out with g. blacki

How does this setup look to everyone?

>>25356610
The way I do it is to have 6 core races, forming into 3 roughly opposed pairs:

Elfs vs. Dwarfs
Sprites vs. Ogres
Orcs vs. Naiads

And I have every other race, man included, as a hybrid between the various.

Eg. Orc + Sprite = Goblin, Orc + Ogre = Troll
Elf + Ogre + Ent, Dwarf + Ogre = Gigas

And each of the opposite pairs results in a special species that's close to man:

Elf + Dwarf = Andal
Sprite + Ogre = Halfling
Orc + Nymph = Imp

The themes in your post largerly correspond to mine.

>>25356793
so i wasnt the only one.

>>25356610
>Last game I did the adventuerers found ANCIENT ALIEN ruins
was it not a place of honor?

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>>25361092
I agree. You know the truth is that we as humans have the best eye-hand coordination, long distance running endurance and are pretty frail compared to a lot of our relatives.

Elves are really just exaggerations of everything humans are best at. Running fast, shooting things, and being smarty-pants assholes.

Compared to our primate relatives, we ARE the elves.

Turns out elves aren't Asian or Norwegian. They're African.

Archived.
suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive.html
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/25350829/

>>25361223
Ah wait. I've thought it out.

Norwegians: High Elves
Asians: Moon Elves
Africans: Dark Elves
Americans: Keebler Elves

>>25361223

The universe we live in has pretty interesting world building. The author is talented.

>>25361223

Many uncountable years ago, perhaps a rogue hominid came across a group of homo sapiens.
Perhaps, as he scrathed his monkey asshole, he looked at them and thought a complete sentence, albiet a simple one.
Perhaps he thought to himself, Ooga booga, it's not rape if it's a human.

>>25361319
Oh goddammit.

Human slave, wat do?

>>25361343
>>25361319

>humams were the true elves all along!
>first thought: raep

Well done /tg/.

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There are many perpetual-barbarian big-and-dumb violent races in various settings: ogres, oni, gnolls, boggers, trollkin, trolls, Conan's pict's, real life's blacks and injuns or anyone who wasn't white post-industrialization.

>>25360274
>look nothing alike

If you weren't stupid you'd realize there are other measures besides appearance, by which standard orcs don't look like orcs as some are pig-featured or green and others aren't, and I was referring to behavior: cavemen would be savages in the game and orcs fill that function in game.

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>>25360314
Tolkien's elves were Mary Sues including in their background info because he was a tree-hugger.
-Settle near one of Gaia's light-trees
-Silver Elves are literally descended from a god
-although forging's supposed to be the dwarves specialty, elves forged the best stuff
-the height of human civilization, the Numenerians, still don't surpass high elves and derive their greatness from heavy contact with elves
-immortal
-most-blessed by the nature god, the most important in Tolkien's setting
-prettiest
-best at war
-best craftsmen

Please tell me, what was the weak point of elves in Tolkien's setting, because I didn't read one.

>>25361440

Reproduction.

They were all gay. All of them.

>>25361440
They have no soul and when they die, they die forever. Everyone else has an afterlife.

But not orks and goblins, who are just tortured and deformed elves.

Tolkien liked elves, but I think the race he had the biggest hard-on for were the pure, simple, incorruptible hobbits. The elves fucked up a lot. Humans were often greedy assholes. Dwarves were obsessed autists who couldn't get around to actually having sex and kids.

But those hobbits basically killed demons and godly monsters and just plain resisted evil better than anyone else. They're clearly the "best" race in Tolkien's estimation.

>>25361440
>>25361698

Stop talking about humans and start talking about which hominids were which core races goddamnit.

>>25361722

Stop talking about tolkien*

>>25361400
>has no idea what orcs are like, or primitive humans for that matter

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>>25361722
Hmm. Well we already decided that humans are elves by hominid standards, so let me rattle through the list of memes real quick.

It's not rape if it's a human.

Human slave, what do?

It's not gay if it's human.

There are no male humans.

Human shota mage, would you allow in your party?

Would you a Half human catboy?

How many spiders could you fit inside the vagina of a Dark Human?

Why does everyone who wants to play a dark human have to play a remorseful brooding loner trying to escape the evils of his society? Always chaotic evil, goddammit.

Why are humans all so unbelievably fucking smug?

Why do humans always bring so much useless fucking cloth to your fortress and flip out when you try to give them your wood scepter with a masterwork knob on the end?

Why do Humans radiate obscene levels of intense gay?

Why are there a million fucking varieties of humans? You've got your african humans, norwegian humans, asian humans, native american humans, mexican humans, canadian humans - some of these races aren't even very different! Condense that shit, WotC!
There, now that's out of the way.

>>25350829
What do you think Orcs are?
Elves are just a gracile branch of the family, dwarves are a robust pygmy.

>>25360150
Brigns up a point, when I read Frostburn it was one of the most WTF moments, it was literally one of these things is not like the other incarnate. I mean look at all the other primitive weapons (everything not named Icechucker) and even then, compared to icicle throwing crossbow, it's pants on head retarded, what the fuck are the spikes there for?

>>25361698
I'll agree Hobbits are the best race in terms of morals, a bunch of stoners will of course appeal to a stoner.

But as far as best overall, it's elves.

Even if they have no afterlife (source cause I don't remember that) they're immortal by default so they don't much need one.

>>25361803
You refer to orcs like they're real neckbeard.

>>25361313
Apparently he published his notes, but to several different people at different times. The notes show he apparently revised his worldbuilding ideas on a couple fairly minor things at we're not sure why one he considers canon. They're worth taking a look at, good shit in there.

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>>25360314
tl;dr:
>they're not mary sues
>they're CATHOLIC mary sues!

>>25362719
Fucking patch notes, Vanilla reality was best.

>>25361910

Dude, Elves were the eldest race, that means they'd be erectus or ergaster, not sapiens.

Then there was the guy at the start who pointed out that Neaderthals had better sight than humans, and also were stronger and better able to handle cold conditions - iirc Dwarves had dark vision in 2E, and let's face it, northern europe would have been like the cold ass dwarven mountain homes as far as early hominids would have been concerned.

Chimps are orcs.

>>25362996
We're talking physically, not necessarily an exact historical match. Homo Erectus would be a better match for Orcs physically.

>>25350829

Beasts and Barbarians is a Robert E. Howard esque Swords and Sorcery setting which does feature Neanderthals as villains. You might want to look at that, OP.

>>25363018
>>25362996

No, homo erectus are "humans", that really huge dude towards the right in >>25360536 is an orc.

>>25351010
Actually, Homo Neanderthalensis showed a more developed social system than both Homo Sapiens Idaltu and Homo Sapiens Sapiens at any given time.

As well, their larger skulls indicate a larger brain. Someone did mention an enlarged occipital lobe, but this does not necessarily indicate that the other lobes were thus smaller than that of Neanderthalensis.

Modern theory attributes an intelligence on par with that of a human.

>>25363186
And let's be honest, that's as far as we're happy to credit any race other than our own, especially the implications if said race is all dead.

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>>25361910
Humans are the mary sues of real life, everything makes perfect sense now.

>>25363186

Neanderthals = dorfs, we've been through this.

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>>25363276
wellp, now i feel slightly faggy

His skull looks niggerish.

>>25363585
and for your amusement ladies and gentleman an Australopithecus aferiensis. Notice the dull intellect and poor reasoning power of this simple ape.

>>25351251
>Being ginger is the same a nationality while all Mediterraneans are one race.

>>25363637
Well we soulless ones do pretty much look a like.

>>25363370
Did you not even look at OP?

Neanderthals are clearly Vin Diesel.

>>25363673
did you even read the thread?

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Actually I ran one "ice age didn't get as shitty" setting.

Neanderthals=dumb dorfs that use stone weapons and armor but have primal magic. There is also a subclass of Neanderthals who don't have magic and are a slave caste in northern regions.

Humans=humies/elfs pretty, tall, imperialistic, aggrandizing, generally enslave other races. They have the most developed magic and technology but all of it takes study, no sorcerers or spontaneous casting.

Fey=really small gracile humans combining elves and gnomes, fuck people up with magic innawoods and generally hate everybody but the humans who they trade with.

Robustus=orcs is made for fightin for hire!

Skinnies=7 foot tall jet black desert dwellers that are very skinny, basically drow. They are the other imperialistic race.

didn't neanderthals have problems moving their arms backwards?

>>25363758
They couldn't throw shit. Also their tools sucked dick and they never thought of a sling or bow.

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>>25356540
>Say Dunmer
>Post Chimer
N'wah what?

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>>25363276

What if homo sapiens are catgirls?

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>>25363882
I also direct you to the Furry fandom

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>>25363911

Let me introduce you to the Eldar Scrolls franchise's races and welcome you to /tg/; Home to the Half-Fae-Catboy meme.

>>25350860
Dafuq did you read? Wagner created fantasy, just not in book form - tolkien just mainstreamed it

>>25350867
even after oblivion and skyrim fluffraping that would matt ward put to shame?

>>25363547
Yeah, that's why I don't get the whole elf hate thing. Elves are basically to humans as humans are to other hominids, why the self-hate?

>>25351044
Please stop being stupid

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>>25363989

>implying there were any ES games after morrowwind

>>25363803
I watched a show about an excavation about a Neandertal cave.

The cave was inhabited by Neandertals for forty thousand years, and the artifacts and evidence from the very early days was identical to the most recent stuff. For forty thousand years they just went through the motions.

It's hard to picture forty thousand years of stagnation when you think about humans. I realize some 40kid will probably interject here, but I'm talking about real life.

>>25354031
FAIL.

>>25356508
go back to /v/ , we like to use our brains here

>>25356529
>Everyone knows Morrowind was the only decent elder scrolls so far.

fix'd

>>25356674
>comprehension failure

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>>25356719
*got raped by

fix'd

captcha:
HISTORY ntsdof

>>25357319
Sounds like win

>>25364078
We were hunter/gatherers for about as long as they were, honestly. They just didn't have the resources to begin agriculture, and may well not have even been able to survive early agriculture. They needed to eat a lot more than humans do. Famine was a constant companion to early farmers.

They could have simply been locked in the hunter/gatherer cycle by their own dietary needs, in spite of the fact that if they were alive today they'd be more than supplied with the diet they needed.

>>25360605
There were much better writers ebfore him that started fantasy, until he fucked everything up... go read some books for once, faggot

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>>25364027

You're implying that most generic fantasys, AND D&D, are tolkienesque when they pull far more heavily from dunsany and burroughs than they pull from tolkien, they especially don't pull heavily from the fucking hobbit, which is the only fucking tolkein book you seem to have read (and is also supposed to be a book within a book - it's literally the YA retelling of Bilbo's "real" adventures that Bilbo wrote and published in the LotR universe).

Then there's the issue that modern fantasy is all grim derp "humans only" settings these days and the genre as a whole has its roots in rennaissance arthurian legend you fucktard.

Read. Some. More. Books.

>>25364078
>It's hard to picture forty thousand years of stagnation when you think about humans.

You may find learning something about actual anthroarcheology will enlighten you - the majority of the existence of homo sapiens, more than a hundred thousand years of existence modern homo sapiens existence we did fuck all as a species.

The mesolithic, when technological advances really began to start happening (and about 30 thousand years after neanderhtals died out fairly regularly began only 14 thousand years ago.

40 thousand years prior to the mesolithic was a brief period of technological stasis for all the hominids, the paleolithic was dull as fuck.

Remember that a lot of that time was spent arse deep in iceages, it was not a particularly habitable period AND homo sapiens went through that weird bit when our numbers dropped to near extinction outselves - we'll never know if the neaderthals would have had their own mesolithic because they didn't survive whatever the fuck happened to them and we did.

(they probalby wouldn't have imho, but we won't know for sure until someone makes the inevtiable neanderthal/hitler hybrid)

>still arguing about tolkien

Can we get nack to cavemen please?

>>25364030
>Implying there were any ES games after Daggerfall

Get on my level. Oh wait, you can't, because you can't climb walls anymore.

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I Already sort of Have Neanderthals.

They're basically this transitional species between Humans and Dwarves and Giants and no one really knows if which race they're more closely related to.

Ostracized by everyone but Giants, they're a thoughtful, methodical, and intelligent race. They spend a lot of their time Crafting, hunting, and are often the Stewards or attendants of Giants.

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what about the aquatic ape?

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>>25364664
They sure do look scary

>>25350829
>I think it'd work well in a low-fantasy setting, I've yet to come across one though.

They do. /TG/ even built one that focused solely on proto-humans. Plus they're is a great tabletop game made by the french(?) about it. LURK MORE.

>I guess I just dislike what Tolkien did to fantasy.
>I guess I just dislike folklore
Fixed that for you.

>>25363637
These are not national examples, but .instead various observable divisions in the Eidon.

The artist (Captain Draw Fag) drew based it on my generalizations to make it easier. Gingers felt more interesting as a distinct human ethnicity instead of a minority of another.

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>>25364899

you wouldn't learn that from lurking, you'd need to trawl through 1d4chan forever to get past ALL THE QUESTS.

not that I'm mad or anything.

polite sage for off topic.

>>25365097
The lurk more was more in response to the fact that he claims to have never come across any thought or reference to using proto-humans in a campaign. If you loosely hang around her for more than a week you SHOULD see that.

>>25364899
>tolkein is folklore

Wat da hell you bin smokin' boy?

Seriously, its only folklore in the loosest possible way.

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>>25360328

>>25365214
I get everything bu starting sticks.

>>25365267
sticks for fire, im thinking.

>>25365165

Tolkien "borrowed" all his ideas from norse and germanic folklore and then applied a catholic world view to the overaching mythos and world and then sticking his own "middle england" race into it all with the hobbits to give the presumed to be english readership something to identify with amongst all the other fantastical crap.

Remember that in D&D, they're not called "hobbits", they're "halflings", because the tolkein estate could only copyright "hobbits" because it was one of the few truly original bits of the setting.

This btw is also why everything hobbit related in LotR and "the hobbit" is basically called "hobbity-thing", so you have "hobbiton" rather than an actual sensible place name like the elves and humans and orcs and dwarves get.

"where do the hobbits live?"
"hobbiton."
"where do all the other races live?"
"in places that aren't just their racial designation with an -on suffix."

>>25365267
>>25365316
It's a /fit/ reference. One of the routines they recommend for beginners is Starting Strength. The guy who made the picture was making a prehistoric lifting joke.

>>25365316
Yeah, but you only use one stick for fire.

>>25365378
That makes sense.

>>25365370
STRAIGHT OUTTA BUCKLAND
CRAZY MOTHERFUCKER NAMED TOCKO

>>25365378
ok, thanks, being a round ball i never venture to the land of lifting.

>>25365378
I believe it started in one of the Civilization Quest threads. I don't remember where exactly I picked up the picture, but it probably refers to how often sticks were used in primitive tech. Just a guess, never got into those threads myself.

>>25365390
You can use two. Just depends on what way you do it.

>>25365656
No, the second is a log. Sticks are too thin to get good purchase with even the bowdrill method and comically impossible with the fire-plow.

>>25365721
I suppose this fellow used black magic then. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EESQmxYPAw
Just like everyone else capable of doing this, including me when camping.

>>25366185
I think the issue is "stick" is a very vague term and I'm being pedantic in an attempt to save face on an anonymous imageboard.
tl;dr I'm being a douche.

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Ooga-bumpa

>>25351084
>mary-sues

You and everyone like you should die.

>>25369750

PEBBLES!

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>>25361910
>dark humans
>always chaotic evil
I'm laughing like an edgy teenager over an offensive tv-show

>>25361319
what body type?
>>25360979

Funny I should see this thread and this article today.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/06/130605-neandertal-neanderthal-bone-tumor-penn-croatia-science/

tl;dr Neanderthals got benign tumors just like us.