>>29311485
>Pin the locations on a map, see if it matches a pattern.

Well, hello.

>>29311485
Might need to ask Caster for some help figuring this out, if our resident mages can't figure it out.
Provided we can contact her, of course.

Otherwise, I propose a totally mundane method of checking out any recent lists of missing persons in the nearest police box/station.
Gotta try to identify who the skirt belongs to at least, although it might be quite a long shot.

>>29311485
Welcome back


Now then- this is bad news. Time's running out. With how many runs there are and that we've looked into them some, if we had their locations could we mark them and see how these things are disappearing?

Like from a radius or in a spiral fashion?

I'd second asking for Caster's help.

>>29311485
Check with Rin; were the marks on leylines or other magically significant places? One place the marks had in common is that they were all on places that see lots of traffic; could that be significant?

Fess up AC-Guy, you took out all of 4chan last night, didn't you?

We grab paper, drawing up a rough map of the city. Rin immediately sets to work marking all the locations we saw for the markings, and we begin looking over what we've seen.

"Is there a pattern?" Sakura asks, slowly.

"There's something." Ris responds, frowning over it. "I'm seeing something, but I'm not sure what I'm looking at."

"How so?" Saber leads, looking at her.

"When we looked at them, these ones we decided almost looked like binding runes-" She gestures to some others. "Looked more like wards. And the ones down by the harbor and at the Train station don't look like either of them."

"So what does that mean?" I ask. "Let's focus on what we do know. What's going on with that?"

"I don't know. They don't quite make sense, laid out like this." Rin responds, looking at the map. "I'm overlooking something. I HAVE to be."

>?

>Overlooking something.

Her weakness is really obvious fine details, right?

"Rin, maps are flat."

"The Earth isn't."

>>29312196
I'm thinking we should fess up with Shirou reacting to the forest clearing even way before this day in particular.

>Harbor
Kirei was found hanging around there before his death, right? Could be his.
Unless I'm remembering things correctly?

>Train Station
No idea why it's neither binding nor warding.
Messes up with the too pattern since it's also populated/well travelled like some of the places we visited (Bridge, Shopping District, School)

Avenger might be rusing us from re-exploring the clearing again, I dunno.

>>29312196
Wait, there were different types of markings- what if we separated each type of marking- would that make a difference?

Also, what's the major difference between binding and warding- that change might be something to take into account?

Sorry, tangent.

Did we just write off the possibility that Avenger has access to other Servants? Cause if he's got Gilles, then that explains why he's not hunting servants for mana

Also, weren't we freaking out about missing women at the close of last session?

"The train station and the harbor bother me. I mean, it's supposed to be high traffic areas we saw all these right?"

"Well, no. All the binding ones were in high traffic areas. The warding ones almost seem to be steering away."

"And the train station is high traffic. It's the way most people come and go from town. But it's not binding or warding."

"So what could that mean?"

".... I don't- Rin. Maps are flat."

There's a profound silence as everyone at the table turns to stare at me. Rin contents herself with a flat 'What."

"No, I mean, you were talking about placement earlier. The Earth is more curved than the table we're drawing on."

There's a sudden look of comprehension on her face as she begins to draw notes and notations on the map, calculations and guesswork. "Alright, that actually makes some sense. If we look at it like this, we have two magic boundaries. The one on the inside is set to draw magic in, and the ones on the outside are meant to push it away."

"All over town?"

She nods. "Which is weird. The one would just be getting in the other's way....."

>?

>Completely insane theory time.

Alright, so Avenger drew the magic in first, and then pushed it away. My theory is that he used the kidnapped women (see the multi-grail theory from the last thread) to make the seeds for more grails, and then used the magic to help send them on their way. I mean, he put the weird marks on the in and out locations for the city.

He's setting up the sequel, and we're too late to stop him.

>>29313141
So its being drawn in, but also pushed out...

Two ideas:

1. The inner circle is drawing from some specific source within it's boundaries, and the magic-repelling circle is there to prevent outside interference or contamination

2. The opposing attraction/repulsion is designed to create magical turbulence of some kind.

Also, are their areas of effect fully spherical? Maybe if we look at them in three dimensions something will become apparent.

>>29313141
Maybe whatever he's doing needs precise amounts of magic, and used the second barrier to do that. Is there a way to check when the seals were placed?

>>29313141
Would it really? The one inside- what if it's gathering magic- or something about it inside and the one outside is keeping out other magic- like a quarantine?

>>29313141
>>29313365
3. The intention is to create a 'void' of magic between the two.

>>29313141
Where's it centered?

I have a horrible feeling it's designed to distribute corrupted grail energies all over Fuyuki.

>>29313141

What's in between the 'magic push' and 'magic pull' zone? A zone devoid of magic, or saturated with one?

>>29313141
Presumably the primary reason to do this is if you would benefit from there being a null zone as a buffer between the inner boundary and everything outside the outer boundary.

Could be acting as anything from insulation (whether to try and keep magical energy from leaking out or to keep that escaping energy from drawing outside attention) to a sort of widespread magical decontamination chamber, or any other number of things.

From our encounter with Avenger and his pickpocket helper:

>"My sister touched a weird marking at the mall, some kind of graffiti." She says, scared. "She said it looked like one at her school, student council business." She starts shaking. "When she touched it, she started getting sick-"

Were the marks at the school/mall warding or binding ones? If the former, presumably the sickness was a defense mechanism to keep people from tampering. If the latter, the sickness was a result of the binding itself, and probably Avenger-mud related, judging by how he wiped her memory.

Maybe worth seeing if that girl's sister has recovered, or gotten worse now that the marks are gone, using our concern for a fellow schoolmate to justify our asking.

>>29313427
A ring of saturation, with an inner vacuum and an outer buffer zone devoid of magic. I could MS paint this as soon as I finish my vidya session.

>>29313365
>>29313373
>>29313394
>>29313407
>>29313407
>>29313421
>>29313421
>>29313427

"It's not just pushing out magic by the sigils, it would be making the area inside magically dead. All of it, including the mana he would be trying to gather." Rin responds shaking her head. "And even if it worked like you were thinking it would be more efficient to just create some sort of container with a set capacity. This is a thousand times more complex than that."

"So do we have ANY idea what he's doing?" Rider asks, looking between us."

"Actually, he might have already done it." Rin replies, staring at the map. "We just have no idea what he might have done or why. But knowing that it's Avenger...."

The table has a tense silence around it.

>?

>>29313793
Is he trying to make a kind of tension trap or something? I get the feeling that this is some kind of setup where when one or the other side collapses, something catastrophic might happen.

Wait, how many days has it been since the war started? How many days until we're supposed to actually have to deal with Angry Manjew in the canon story? The fact that these things are fading and he's doing nothing to manage their upkeep disturbs me.

>>29313882
Addendum: What happens if Angry Manjew is summoned in an area devoid of magic?

>>29313793
>>29313906
...It'd be incredibly amusing if this is all Avenger trying to pull an Archer on himself.

>>29313882
>>29313906
>>29313968

I've already stated my theory. >>29313217 I'm just thinking about why, what was it, twenty girls or something vanished? What the hell is he going to use twenty grail cores for?

It's all sitting right here in front of me. I can tell by the way the narrative is going that we have literally everything we need to make a large plot leap, and I'm just too fucking stupid to put two and two together.

It irritates me to no end.

>>29313793
Didn't Avenger tell us he wanted to limit the damage he was going to cause? Like, he wanted to complete his evil plan while being as not-evil as possible. The interfering boundaries would make sense if the sucking field is Blood Fort Andromeda on a larger scale and the blocking field is designed to keep it within a certain boundary.

As to what his actual plan is we're in the dark as ever.

>>29314044
Are you me? I feel like I've done all I can and am just waiting for someone with a higher WIS to show up

>>29314078
So the sigils are just to keep his actual shenanigans as efficient and localized as possible? Seems like a reasonable theory. If it takes AC-Guy another twenty minutes to do the next post, we're probably on the right track.

>>29314044
AC-Guy has confirmed that someone came up with an easy win strategy early in the quest, but nobody voted on it, so he ignored it.
The same thing is happening now; if only one or two people stumble on the right answer, it doesn't mean shit. We have to actually vote for it to make it count.
Unless, of course, we go back through the threads, take every idea that works with in-character knowledge, and throw them at Rin and Ilya to see what sticks.
The problem there is that 'in-character knowledge' equates to 'almost nothing' for Shirou.

>>29314044
>>29314102

I think the real problem is AC-Guy is running this on advanced metaphysics and nobody here plays on his level.

If it makes you feel better, I'm only PRETTY sure I know what he's on about.

>>29314078
>>29314134
Except the sigils are gone.

>>29314190
Then HELP US.

>>29314170
I'm about to go to bed early, wake up in the morning, and reread the entire quest with a legal pad and make notes like a schizophrenic on a bender until something clicks.

You know, I think Sequel Guy is probably right. We just have no possible way of knowing that in character.

>>29314190
Hmmm, maybe reading Final Crisis will jog my 5th demension

So the runes are designed to disperse the prana without actually using any of it.

What was Satsuki's RM's effect again?

>>29314257
It drains and dissipates mana in the surrounding environment.

>>29314134
Efficient is a much better way to describe what I'm suggesting.

>>29314190
Point me in the direction of what you're seeing; I need to jog my associative memory.

>>29314195
We killed the vampire that was central to his plans. Someone on Team Avenger said they'd have to do it the hard way after all.

Is he trying to turn those girls into batteries? Is he cheating the system and bypassing the need for the death of heroes by making these girls into seeds and then making hotspots of prana around the city where they'll charge faster than normal. The fading sigils means all the energy is just about done being distributed.

I dunno, just another idea for the dart board.

>>29314257
>>29314286
What a shame we don't know this in-character.

>>29314201
>>29314308

I am specifically banned from helping the players because I've actually SEEN notes.

Metagaming, yo.

I'm just saying I'm having a hell of a time figuring it out for myself, and I KNOW shit.

>>29314348
Yes, but what we (or rather Rin) *can* extrapolate is the effect this has on spiritual beings. Such as Servants or, say, the Greater Grail.

What happens to dead Servants when there isn't a Greater Grail left for them to return to?

Its clearly unsolvable, so lets just stop thinking, declare that a witch did it, and go punch Avenger and tell him he's not living his life correctly.

This is the best solution I've got, sorry guys.

Can we just fucking project Avalon already? Then we can just tank whatever he throws at us and nuke him with Excalibur.
Seriously, we've been sitting on the damn thing for what, thirty threads now? Forty?

Well I have no idea and we've been flailing around for ages on this. Unless we get something to tip us off I vote we just try to sword the problem away.

In character Shirou isn't exactly equipped to deal with this unless the answer is sword anyway.

>>29314370
Darn, so much for that hope.

All right >>29314223, your job is to wake up early enough so that the thread is still here and to post anything that comes to the surface. Use qtg if the thread's 404'd.

>>29314400
They would disappear as the energy sustaining them dissipates, similar to destroying the lesser grail.

>>29314432
I love it. Let's do this, only with swords

I still want to know if anything of interest was in between the two barriers, and if anything of interest was inside the inner one.

>I really wish I could give you guys a hint or something.

>But I really can't give hints without ruining everything, given how interconnected everything is.

>>29314506
Write more, taunt less. You can throw us a bone later if you're that desperate to. You're actually amused by this, I can tell.

Goddamit, does anyone have those annotated notes?

>>29314547
found em
http://pastebin.com/BwhREMG6

>>29314506
TELL US >>29314477

>>29314506
Don't even act fucking coy with us. You are enjoying every second of this. You're squirming in your chair and trying as hard as you can to not giggle aloud you're so amused by how angry we are. Every QM is a sadist at heart.

>>29314545

>It's not as amusing as you might think, because we're basically teetering over the edge of all of the awesome shit leading up to the finale all happening.

>It's like, you know that giant climb at the beginning of a roller coaster? Basically you guys are sitting at the top, looking for the button that sends you over the edge.

>And I'm here staring waiting for you to hit the fucking button so I can do all the shit I've been setting up and foreshadowing for forty threads. Right now I'm regretting hiding the button so well, because I can't tell you where the button is without killing the suspense and sense of accomplishment.

>>29314585
>>29314477

>Not really, no. You technically had that bike-repair conversation with Gil in that zone, but that's the only remotely noteworthy thing.

>>29314652
It feels more like the button is just located on a dashboard covered with fake buttons.

we could randomly press buttons all day and we wouldn't find it

File: 1388992885317.png-(Spoiler Image, 250 KB, 360x400)

250 KB PNG

>>29314432
I like that mentality, it'll take us to good places.
Has anyone tried taking the Fuyuki City map and actually putting points where AC-Guy has told us the runes were? Maybe that would be helpful. It would probably be easier to spot things if we had a visual representation rather than a description of a visual representation.

>>29314652
Can you tell us if it's the map? Should we be focusing on this or looking elsewhere?

File: 1388992989346.jpg-(528 KB, 1371x600, GoddamnitAvengerFuckYou.jpg)

528 KB JPG

>>29314732

Well, lemme try then. No promises on accuracy though.

>Legend:
Red O - sucks magic
Blue O - pushes magic
Green X - neither binding nor warding
Small Black X - Fuyuki disappearances

Anyone else remember what other places had the runes? Help?
I recall someone else did something like this before, but it had two runes near the Church for some reason.

Also, it was a miracle that we were even able to detect enough of that bland magic through TWO runes (School and Shopping District) that we were able to arrive at the area with Avenger's trap.

I could see why Shirou concluded that said trap wasn't really tailored for him, at least.

Are both of the barriers still up? He could be trying to capture some specific mana, so the second whatever he wants hits the center zone, the outside barrier goes down. It could also be why he wanted the vampire, if it could drain the mana.

>>29314779
Wait, are both Sakura's and Rin's houses in the magically-dead zone?

>>29314690

>The metaphor is imperfect, because half the buttons would do something. You've already debated the correct button. You're just justifiably afraid of some of the buttons because they might cause the ride to explode and kill everyone.

>This metaphor has at this point, gotten away from us entirely.

>>29314745

>The map is one of several places you could be getting clues and information from. You don't actually NEED the whole picture to know the correct course of action here, and the map, if you were reading the clues correctly, might get you through.

>If you need more though, look for it. Do something else.

>>29314825

>No, some of the binding runes were near both, suspected due to laylines.

>>29314831
The problem of there being many buttons but only one "correct" one remains

>>29314853
Can we get a complete list of currently known markings? I think >>29314779 might be missing a couple, but I don't remember where

Maybe the prana void could be used to better track more magically powerful beings and Avenger used it to steal latent Magi or something?

>>29314831
Hey, AC-guy, I do have a quick question.

Kirei's body- was that ever found?

Secondly, have we, at any point, ever met Kirei and Avenger at the same time?

I'm a bit curious.

Observant guy here, with a philosophical observation.

When Alexander couldn't untie the knot, he cut it in half.

Let's ask Rin and Best Sister if either family has something like an ace in the hole for something like this.

Jewel Sword up in this, wreck Team Evil with the second magic.

>>29314910
OR MAYBE
FUCKING
AVALON

>>29314910
Alexander could do that because he held power

Compared to what we're up against, we hold little power

>>29314910
So what you're saying is, instead of trying to puzzle out the answer, we should Shirou up and beat it out of Avenger?

>>29314902

>According to Lancer, the Kirei's body was destroyed by Zouken. And yes, kinda. Kirei was inside bleeding on the carpet while Avenger and Gil assulted the Church the first time, and you spoke to him while Cain was fighting Avenger outside.

File: 1388993491570.jpg-(461 KB, 643x983, MY FACE.jpg)

461 KB JPG

>>29314902
>Kirei might have been Avenger all along
SQUAD BROKEN.

>>29314931
That's why we need the infinite prana generation of the Jewel Sword.

Or the incredible defensive capabilities of Avalon.

Or Unlimited Blade Works.

Or ALL OF THEM AT ONCE.

>>29314910
>When Alexander couldn't untie the knot, he cut it in half.
...Hey, what have we been arguing about that's tied to itself for some inexplicable reason?

>>29314957
And then Avenger pulls holy grail bullshit out of his ass and kills us and everyone we care about.

But maybe I'm thinking about this wrong... I'm thinking like a normal person, not like Shirou, I should be considering more Shirou-ish paths to take, like in F/SN when suicidal bravery was often what was necessary to stay alive

>>29314988
You know what helped there?
AVALON.

>>29314936

I'm saying that we should stop pissing about and start grabbing the biggest guns we can find, because we're around the corner from a boss fight.

Seriously, we should be 'contracting' Rin AND Sakura AND Ilya (though I wouldn't try and swing that last one due to inevitable shitstorm) while grabbing a jeweled sword and trying to find Avalon.

Or, if we wanted to end the war right now, we just rule-breaker ourselves and watch the ensuring clusterfuck unfold.

When was the last time we slept? Cause maybe Merlin can drop us a hint.

>>29315009
>rule-breaker ourselves and watch the ensuring clusterfuck unfold.
You know...when you think about it, this has like a 50/50 chance of going completely wrong or completely right.

>>29315009
We already found Avalon. We know EXACTLY where it is. We just need to Project it to get it out.

>>29315043
Do we have time for a two-hour snooze? Not a full night's rest, just enough time to get in touch with him, search through our thoughts, and see if our subconscious sticks things together.

>AC-Guy @ArmoredQuest 1m
>Holy -SHIT-, Observant Guy.
worry.jpg

>>29314910
>>29314958
>>29315009
I'm getting an idea.

>>29314958
Us and Avenger.

Ok, we know that there are runes set up to disperse prana in the city, and that other runes of unknown design are set up at what are presumably the most active public access/egress points in Fuyuki.

>>29315074
>>29315092
welp
so much for avalon

>>29315046
I vote for this

It's insane, exceedingly dangerous, and most likely won't succeed

A perfect Shirou plan in other words

>>29314910
Yeah, fuck it, lets just follow Broskander's example and cut the fucking mystery in half. We are clearly failing to untie it.

Posting merlin hints
>"Right then, the sheath needs a sword, right? that's part of why the curse ins there, but luckily you seem to have adapted well to it." He hesitates. "A mite too well actually. I wonder if you're what I intended to receive the gift." He sighs and shakes his head. "I suppose it's too late for such concerns. Listen, Lock and Key, Sword and Sheath. To succeed, you first need to fail and destroy the source of your Shadow, and kill yourself. Do you understand?"
>"Oh, so he put a memory block to try and keep you from being too preoccupied with tragedy. Whole mess of good that did for you."
>He leans in as though examining something about me. "So that's it then? You've somehow managed to trigger the link he set within Avalon? Meddling god-damned wizard. Oh well, I suppose I can't complain if he's helping me along this much."
Also
>"Dear Christ, she hasn't told you anything, has she?"
Somebody knows something. Maybe its saber and about the end of the 4th war, unless we did that already.

>>29315134
Damage it just enough to get someone to tell us something they shouldn't. We need to shake the hornet nest a little.

>>29315147
We need angry Shirou having a private interrogation discussion with Saber. She's been dodging us for basically the whole quest. She knows something.

We're making one of the Classic Blunders: Getting caught up in figuring out the "Why" rather than the "What". I'm with observant guy, we don't need to know exactly what Avenger is planning, we need to get the biggest guns we can and load them with high-explosive rounds.

I vote for tabling discussion of Avenger's plans and moving on to finding out how to fuck them up. Let's start with "Rin, what's the most powerful weapon your family has? How about you, Sakura, do the Matou have anything we could use against Avenger?"

>>29315147
RIGHT

LET'S DO THING

We should talk to Saber about stuff until she tells us what she knows

>>29315147
let's simplify this shit- Avenger saved shirou by using the grail. What if the sword is the grail and it's locked away, thanks to avalon?

Right now avenger has avalon, or a link to it and he's trying to get the grail out?

>>29315181
We need any and all severance magicks and devices we can find. No need to kill and destroy. We just need to be able to rip things apart and let the constituent parts squirm alone until they squeal and tell us what we need to know.

>>29315205
>>29315181
>>29315188
OK, so we're gonna go grab the big guns and a stack of rule breaker arrows, and interrogate saber while we're walking?

>>29315198
WE
NEED
TO
PROJECT
AVALON

>>29315230
>>29315251
We work on both of these.

>>29315230
I guess so?

Let's just hope this doesn't make everything go bad. It really does kind of feel as though AC Guy's given us thousands of possible solutions with only one actually being viable

>>29315279
At the same time, AC Guy is not the kind of person to throw us off a cliff because we started with our left foot instead of our right. I'm wagering we get one, maybe two BIG WARNING FLAGS something is going horribly wrong before we commit to a bad end.

>>29315205
>>29315230
Actually, I just realized that we actually have guns, and HE ammo to go with them. The joys of having Keery as a father. I actually meant that metaphorically, we need to bring the Tohsaka super magic to bear, along with the Einzbern and the Matou. These are the practicing heirs to the three Grail families, all capable.

And sure, let's try to project the sheathe.

>>29315307
we'll just assume the big warning flag is avenger bluffing
or a distraction
or something
where is taiga?

>>29315279
Well when we asked our one question, he said we had come up with three possible ways to break the setting, but nobody's gone digging for them yet.

>So is there a plan?

>>29315279

>It's not a 'one viable solution' thing. It's more like 'there's a couple of ways to win, and there's several ways to get there/figure that out.

>>29315357
>The thee plans presented to me went like this:

>>Plan one.

>Involved fixing/replacing the Grail. There is a way, and if you found it you're well on the way to an easy victory.

>>Plan two.

>A particularly creative use of Rule Breaker. Not going to specify beyond the broken Phantasm idea isn't the right one.

>>Plan three.

>Also know as the 'reverse major mistake' involves killing yourself at an appropriate juncture. Limited utility, but proper execution could lead to undoing a solid bad-end.

>>29315369
PROJECT AVALON

>>29315369
MASTURBATE FURIOUSLY

>>29315394

WE CAN'T.

THAT HASN'T BEEN AN OPTION THIS ENTIRE TIME. EVERYONE IS IGNORING YOU FOR A REASON.

>>29315369
I'm seeing that we collect armaments and have a loaded discussion with Saber, along with projecting Avalon. We've been blowing off doing that last thing for a long time.

>>29315373
Like I said, we've got the three Grail family heirs. We should be using this to our advantage.

>>29315394
We've tried before, I'm nearly certain.

>>29315369
Currently it looks like Attempt to project Avalon, talk to saber, and go get the big guns.

>>29315369
Yeah, prepare big guns and talk to Saber.

Pull out every overpowered piece of weaponry we can without blowing our brains out while trying to extract whatever information Saber is holding from us.

I think

Also wonder where Taiga is and hope she hasn't been kidnapped again because no one wants that to happen again

>>29315424
Why not. What evidence do you have that projecting Avalon is not possible?
>>29315431
Pretty sure we never did any such thing. Or if we did, we tried once and gave up.

>>29315461

Uh, the fact that we never had it, Avenger does?

Why do you think 'Rule breaker ourselves' is the fucking nuclear option? It cuts us off from AVENGER, which is the only thing keeping us both alive.

The reason Shirou in Canon could project Avalon is because it was a part of him for several years. This was not the case with this Shirou.

>>29315512
It has never been confirmed that Avenger possess Avalon.

>>29315512
Do you think Rule Breaker-ing Avenger instead of ourselves would yield a different effect?

Random stuff from the ebook
>Why can't the servants sense me when I'm in a box? Did you give me an enchantment or something?
>"They can't sense you because you think you're hidden. Honestly, you don't even need the box for that, you just need to really strongly desire not to be found while not thinking about your own existence. You, more than most, are exactly who you want to be."
>"Also, why is 'belief' a a big thing for us? Why the hell should we be able to... accomplish Magecraft or whatever, just by *believing* in whatever we need or is convenient?"
>"How do you go from 'Has avalon' + 'Makes swords' to 'Belief makes things happen.' "
>"To be fair, you're cheating. You shouldn't even be alive, but then I nudged things. And then other people nudged things, and now everything all confused.
Also 400+ pages of single space text

>>29315542

Would rule-breaking the same person have a different effect? No, I don't think it really will.

That's probably the death-threat Archer had over Avenger when they blew up the Matou house.

>>29315582
But we've already been hit with Rule Breaker, Archer used it to break our connection with Saber.

>>29315689
He used on ON SABER.

From AC-Guy's Twitter.

>I am now convinced every one of my players is holding a different piece of the puzzle and not sharing notes.

Alright, in light of this let's just see all our crazy theories and facts in one list and see how many of them are actually incompatible. I'll put an 'X' next to the ones we're reasonably sure are true.

>Shirou is a Demon.
>Dream Guy is Merlin X
>Kirei is still Alive.
>Avenger is behind the kidnappings X
>Sakura has babby problems X
>Avenger was building multiple Grail Cores.
>Avenger was apparently sending magic out of town.
>Avenger wanted a Vampire for some reason X
>>Given the circumstances, I'm lead to believe ANY vampire would work.
>Cain isn't dead, but off-screen.
>Avenger and Shirou are the same person.
>Bazett is sick, can't be cured normally X
>Bazett is still alive.
>Sakura doesn't have the Grail pieces X
>The Grail is Evil XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
>Grail Mud everywhere.

>AC-Guy @ArmoredQuest 16m
>I am now convinced every one of my players is holding a different piece of the puzzle and not sharing notes.
THE ONLY PIECE I HAVE IS AVALON AND I AM SHARING IT QUITE FUCKING LOUDLY THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>>29315754

So here's my new, unified theory for what's up:

>Avenger is blackmailing Kirei.
>Avenger got to mage guy who helped Bazett and Kirei summon Lancer.
>Mage guy attacks and poison Bazett, Kirei gets leverage over her by helping to heal.
>Lancer's now indirectly working for Kirei and therefore Avenger.
>Avenger/Gilgamesh have apparently been allied since the last war.
>At the end of the last war, Shirou made a wish, and it turned him into Avenger.
>Something clearly didn't go right, because we saw a copy of ourselves in the hospital room.
>Avenger went one way, We went 'Normal' Shirou path.
>Avenger is trying to either win the war for Grail-Avenger, or make it look like that while setting up his own failure.
>Made contingency plan involving a multi-grail war as a contingency of some kind.
>Merlin is probably banking on this for his own 'long term diabolical scheme'.

Thoughts?

>>29315754
The most prominent things that come to mind for me are whatever Saber isn't telling us about the fourth war, what the hell happened to us as a child (see: that fucked-up dream we had with Rider as passenger), and the meaning behind the "looping on itself" connection we've got stored inside of us. At least one of these things is absolutely paramount to our progress, and involves as either revealing everything about them, or manipulating the entity in some certain way.

What I'm getting from AC Guy is that if we take a more-likely theory and pursue it, someone, at some point, will unveil something that will finally give us the last hint we need. We just need to pick one avenue that we can pursue effectively and see where it takes us.

I'm just gonna list the traits of Dead Apostles here so we can puzzle out why Avenger wanted one.
-Localised time manipulation
-Ability to take something of another within itself to stabilise own existence
-Able to infect others

>>29315844
>Ability to take something of another within itself to stabilise own existence

This seems relevant.

What if...

>Shirou participates in Grail War. "Wins." Tries to live up to his ideals, fails, becomes Archer.

>Shirou(2) participates in Grail War. Meets Archer. Knows his future. "Wins." Tries to live up to his ideals. Becomes famous. Still fails. Becomes Avenger.

>Shirou(3) participates in Grail War. Meets Archer. Meets Avenger. Knows his future. Things get complicated.

What if Avenger wants Shirou to WIN and not just "win?" What if this is all a plot to turn Shirou into a superhero?

>>29315557
This makes me think that our desire to become a hero is what created avenger in the first place.

>>29315924
What.

>>29315940
Izzat you, Rin?

>>29315924
I think we're solidly at 'fuck being a superhero, I'm just going to protect the people I care about' right now.

>>29315768
Mine
>Kerry wanted someone to save at the end of the last war, spawning us.
>We are what we believe because we have the grail shards
>Merlin is helping us because ???
>Avenger is Shirou's shadow, so he had to have come second, possibly from Shirou's dream of becoming a hero
>This may be related to killing ourself at the right time

>>29315949
>What if Avenger wants Shirou to WIN and not just "win?" What if this is all a plot to turn Shirou into a superhero?

OR maybe it's all a plot to disillusion Shirou.
Archer already said killing him won't work.
Maybe the plot is to crush his belief, thus preventing him from becoming a Counter Guardian and/or Heroic Spirit.

>>29315975
>This may be related to killing ourself at the right time
Pretty sure AC Guy basically said that this course of action was a way to avoid a bad end going completely off the rails, not to get a good end.

>>29315980
This makes some sense, I guess? That conversation with Avenger and him saying he was stuck in a role he had to play, he was the 'villain' to our 'hero', etc.

Or something. I don't even know if I'm remembering it right.

>>29315980
>Archer already said killing him won't work.
That's because we're not the Shirou that becomes the original Archer, not because killing that Shirou would fail.

God damn, my fucking head
Let's just stake out Grail Summoning Sites or something

>>29316063
>yet another fucking plan
OKAY SO WE HAVE ELEVENTY BILLION DIFFERENT FUCKING IDEAS AND WE CAN'T DO ALL OF THEM AT ONCE.
>"Also, why is 'belief' a a big thing for us? Why the hell should we be able to... accomplish Magecraft or whatever, just by *believing* in whatever we need or is convenient?"
BUT WHAT IF WE COULD?

>>29315975
Didn't somebody (either Merlin or Avenger) confirm that we do have a soul (meaning we aren't a demon) but it's in a form that Saber doesn't recognize as a soul?

>>29316063
Seriously, let's just have a private, serious conversation with Saber about what the hell happened in the last war, and anything else she's been hiding from us. We no longer have the leisure of being considerate of her feelings, because it might get us all killed if we don't know.

Tell Rin, Sakura, and Ilya to compile a list of all magical weapons they can acquire related to severance and redirection of magical ties and energies, super weapons or mundane.

Then, we need to try our damnedest to manifest all things we have inside of us that are purely "Shirou", like that self-connection door thing, the bow, and so on. We need to look deep inside ourselves in a magical way and pull something out that is probably going to fucking hurt.

Talking it over with the others is going to get nowhere, because nobody has anything to grasp for, so we need to take action. Any action at all.

>>29316014
Exactly. Archer isn't our Archer. Avenger is.

>Then why doesn't he just kill us?
Because he doesn't want to 'just' not exist.
He wants to erase the entire situation we're in.

Combine this with:
>"...you just need to really strongly desire[...] You, more than most, are exactly who you want to be[...] 'Belief makes things happen.' "

>>29316097
Well, even if we decypher what in the shitting hell Avenger is trying to do, we don't have magicpower to stop it, unless you counting Saber or Rider bombing whatever that is. He's trying to summon the Grail, if we can believe that much, so might as well wait him in better places

>>29316134
And there we have it ladies and gentleman, 'do nothing' has seriously been suggested as a plan.

Alright, so since we're not doing anything of amazing productivity here, let's see if we can trigger the Jewel Sword flag.

Then, if nothing else, Rin will have the power to blast anything that might fuck with us to smithereens.

All in favor of asking the three Magi girls if there's anything special they could cook up?

>>29316167
Don't act like it's the worst thing imaginable. Doing nothing can sometimes do things. I just suggest minor relocations, is all
Although now that I think about it, it would include reking Assassin

AC-Guy, have we had enough of a "general" consensus on something to do for you to continue, or are you still waiting for us to come to an agreement?

>>29316192
I support this in my >>29316125 post.

>two and a half hours since last update
>still nothing resembling coherency
I stopped having fun twenty threads ago. I'm only still here because like fuck I'm going to let you win, AC-Guy.

>>29316302
I think if AC "wins", his literally everything will burn forever

>>29316302

>I'm trying. I'm fucking TRYING.

>I'm writing up the next bit right now.

>If it makes you feel better, any future Quests I run that involve Metaphysics getting screwy already had built in tutorial sections planned before I ever touched this.

>The fact that nobody has any idea what's going on is only a testament to how badly this shit got derailed.

>>29316323
And thus the Best Ending is revealed.

>>29316341
It's always hard to ride the line between obvious and obscure when it comes to stuff like this.

The fact that we have all the pieces but still can't think of shit really depresses me

>>29316302
I'm here cause I want to see the whole explanation at the end. Also, I haven't forgotten the chart we were promised.

>>29316399
We have all the pieces and no glue to stick it together with, if that metaphor makes sense.

That's what it feels like to me. We have concepts, things, and events, but we're lacking some little piece of context that makes it all make sense.

>>29316341
It's not just that nobody has any idea what's going on, the complete lack of any direction means that even if we DO somehow stumble onto the right path, the first hint of something shiny will send us careening off into the undergrowth once more.
I'm going to have to avoid the epilogue threads because I just know you'll trot out all the amazing plans we came up with that got ignored because OBVIOUS RED HERRING CHASE IT DOWN CHASE IT DOWN and I'll just be so fucking mad.
>>29316399
That's an issue of presentation. We do have all the pieces we need, but they're in a pile of all the pieces we DON'T need, all the pieces we need to NOT have, and all the pieces from 50 other completely unrelated puzzles.

About vampires, could that one be used as a vessel for souls?

"... Alright, we're rapidly getting nowhere." I say, after what feels like I've been staring at this map for hours. "There's something we're missing, or overlooking, or something. We either need new information or a new perspective, and this map is giving us neither."

"....Alright, so what are we going do about Avenger then?" Sakura asks, looking at me concerned.

"We're going to have to fight Avenger. And Zouken, as well as the Servants they have working for them." I say. "Does anybody have anything else we can bring to the table? Ancient magical secrets?" I say, looking to where the shed is. "Because all I got from my Dad amounts to 'shoot them' and 'don't be a mage'."

"The forbidden Einzbern magic is basically the Grail." Ilya responds with a shrug. "So, maybe I could do something with that when we get to the end.... but that would require us getting to the end first."

".... I think the total Matou combat capability and knowledge amounts to two servants and whatever Zouken has on him right now." Sakura adds, hesitantly. "Sorry, Sempai."

"I might have something actually." Rin says suddenly. "But I need to go back to my house to get it." She stands up, and wobbles slightly. Saber quickly grabs her, and they sit back down. "... Apparently I will be going to get it after I recover more." She continues with a blush.

"If Shirou went with you, you could go get it now." Ilya comments. "Rider could keep Sakura and I reasonably safe while you're gone. And Saber goes with you."

"I'm not sure I like the sound of splitting up when our sheer numbers is what's warding our enemies away." Rider comments. "But I'm not sure it would be wise to wait, either."

Rin looks at me, biting her lip.

[ ] Go now.
[ ] Later.
[ ] Other.

>>29316502
Go now, for the sake of exposition and progress. We can also discuss things away from Ilya, Rider, and Sakura. Rin and Saber are both people we could really use a thorough discussion with on the way there.

>>29316502
>Go now
>>29316445
Except you never have a way of knowing whether it's a red herring or actually important detail. There's no way people wouldn't chase it down

Also what about this?
>>29316448

>>29316502
[x] Go now.
[x] Text Issei, tell him to send Archer to 'another castle'.

>>29316502
>Go later
Try and take a nap to contact merlin

>>29316530
We can do that after we get back. Getting more weapons is much safer than taking a gamble on contacting Merlin.

File: 1389001367127.jpg-(5 KB, 120x120, latooni.jpg)

5 KB JPG

>>29316502
>[ ] Go now.

Time is against us.

Quick in, quick out.

Why every time I try to discuss meaning of vampire in Avenger's plan it gets ignored? You could at least have courtesy of telling me my theory is stupid or something

>>29316502
ONWARD!
FOR GLORY, BITCHES AND COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF SWORD!

>>29316583
It's honestly because I've got no idea what he might want to do with them. The most I could guess is it's something with storing energy for the grail.

>>29316601
Vampires eat people
Tsukihime teaches us that Vampires keep soul of people they eat within themselves
Thus a Vampire can be used as a vessel of souls

>>29316583
We simply do not have the information to understand the meaning of vampires in the whole scheme of things at this point in time.

>>29316616
Really? I must have missed that bit. I only remembered that they ate people because of some DNA degenration thingy

>>29316661
Also that
It's how Arc tried to explain Chaos: he ate too much animals

"I don't think time is on our side here. We'll go now, and hopefully be back before anything has a chance to happen."

I get some nods, and we leave the house together. I help support Rin while Saber keeps an eye ahead for danger. We walk along, with Rin in various stages of independence between lying on me to trying to walk with zero body contact.

"You seem.... nervous." I tell her, looking at her concerned.

She blushes. "I'm just thinking about when this is all over. I spent my whole life carefully cultivating this pretty little image of how I've wanted people to see me." She hesitates looking away. "I think that image is completely dead by now. Between not attending a single class in more than a week, moving around town at all hours of the day and night in secret, hanging around with strange people who clearly aren't local and the fact the world almost certainly sees us as a 'thing'." She lets out an irritated huff. "All that work towards a particular social standing and I've all but dragged the family name through the mud. And here I am, taking a boy home to a house where I don't have any kind of adult supervision to do god knows what in their eyes."

[ ] You don't like it?
[ ] It'll pass.
[ ] Where does Saber fit into that?

>>29316670
If she's worried about dragging her family name through the mud, her daddy already did it. But let's not actually say it
>Where does Saber fit into that?

>>29316670
[x] Where does Saber fit into that?
[x] Why do you care, anyway? Is it really that important in the face of how your friends and family see you?

>>29316670
>[ ] Where does Saber fit into that?

A boy AND an obviously foreign girl, Rin. the rumormongers certainly won't leave that bit out!

>>29316641
This >>29316616

File: 1389002534813.jpg-(54 KB, 247x244, 16.jpg)

54 KB JPG

>>29316670
>[ ] You don't like it?
>[ ] Where does Saber fit into that?

Poke, poke the tsundere.

>>29316670
>to do god knows what
About half of them probably think Shirou's here on handyman duty.

The other half think he's here on "handyman" duty.

>>29316700
I kind of like this one. A little bit of joking, a little bit of reminding her that even if casual acquaintances find it a little odd, it's a small price to pay for not having to be alone anymore. She's got friends who know the real her, and appreciate her for more than distant admiration of the school bigshot.

And she has her sister back.

Let 'em talk; she's a strong, independent japanese magus who don't need no man but doesn't mind having one regardless.

I blink slowly, thinking before- "Where does Saber fit into that?"

"What?" Rin asks turning to me. I see Saber give me a strange glance over her shoulder in the corner of my eye.

"I mean, on top of the whole me thing, there's also an obviously foreign girl going with us. Which would either make it not as bad as you think, or like a thousand times worse."

Rin turns crimson, and stares at me horrified. If I wasn't practically carrying her at the time she probably would have stopped walking. "W-what?"

"It's probably nothing to be concerned about Rin." Saber comments lightly from ahead. I feel Rin start to relax until she continues. "If they decide to suspect us, then the entire arrangement back at the house seems even more suspect, especially given Lancer's comments. Not only is there a third woman at the minimum, but there's also a child directly subject to those horrible influences." She looks back, seemingly oblivious to the fact that Rin's heart has apparently stopped beating. "If you're going to be worried about your image, I would be much more concerned about that than a simple walk to your home to collect some personal belongings."

I can almost feel the terrified screaming at the sudden revelation in her head when I decide to snap her out of it. "Honestly though, anyone who actually knows any of us knows that it's not as morally bankrupt as it seems on the surface. And while I can't speak for anyone else in our group, I really don't care what people think of me. Everyone I care about is going to be happy and safe, and I'm going to save everyone else in the bargain."

"But-"

"Rin, I understand your concern." Saber says from ahead. "But from what I understand, nobody who matters will care one whit about what might be happening behind closed doors because either you're happy or it's none of their business. The others are probably jealous for other reasons, and would play any card they could manage to hold."

>Cont.

>>29316897

Discussion ends as we pass by the rubble that used to be the Matou estate, still marked off and taped with signs of investigation. Rin seems to have calmed herself slightly, though I suspect a part of it is because we haven't seen anybody who might know us along the way.

When we reach her house, I get a weird sense of foreboding, and we slowly walk up to the porch.

[ ] Go inside.
[ ] Watch outside.
[ ] Other.

>>29316934
[x] Other.
"My spider-sense is tingling."

>>29316934
>Watch outside
A sense of foreboding pervades the area

>>29316947
I'm suddenly filled with regret at the missed opportunity to have our Shirou be a huge fan of Marvel and DC, and Western superhero comics in general.

Still, this, but make it "Shirou-sense" instead.

>>29316934
> [ ] Other.
"Your house wouldn't happen to be rigged with magical traps for use against mages that aren't affiliated with your family by any chance?"

>>29316934
[x] Other
Call out: 'We have spooky magic moving in, better make it quick'

>>29316934
>>29316947
>>29316969
this then
[X] Go inside.
don't let Rin alone if you have a bad feeling

>>29316934
"I have a bad feeling about this Rin"
>fucking twitter didnt show you posted anything but the comment about your players not sharing notes

>>29316969
Marvel Versus Capcom is a thing in Japanland. Even if Shirou was only 'very slightly' nerdy, he'd know about Spiderman and spider-sense.

File: 1389004110985.jpg-(49 KB, 242x295, 146.jpg)

49 KB JPG

>>29316934
>[ ] Go inside.

Shirou sense activated when we saw the house, not when we were inside.

Follow the girls in. If anything happens, we need to fight them out and escape.

>>29316934
>[ ] Other.
"You've got security precautions set up here, right? I'm getting a weird feeling, and I don't know if it's just that I'm too sensitive to the house's boundary fields or if there's something to be worried about."

"It's probably worth checking your security measures first thing to see if there's anyone unauthorized that managed to slip in while you were out."

>>29316962
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZZA-ElsORk

I hesitate in the doorway, looking back over my shoulder. "You have security here, right? Magically?"

"Yes, why?" Rin asks, suddenly concerned. "It doesn't seem to have been tampered with though."

"Maybe I'm just oversensitive to the wards then."

"Possibly." She responds with a weak smile. "It's never been the most inviting place." We walk inside, and Rin first goes to her room to retrieve some sort of material she puts in a sack. Then she goes into a study, retrieving some sort of a key. Finally, she goes into the basement. But before she does- "You can come with or you want, or you can stay here." She says calmly. "But if you're going with, I need to know so I can compensate to get you past the wards.

[ ] Stay with Saber.
[ ] Go with Rin.

>>29317222
[X] Go with Rin.

>It's like 2am here, so this next post will probably be my last one.

>If the thread's alive tomorrow, I'm willing to keep running.

>>29317222
[x] Go with Rin.
Why can't Saber come with?

>>29317222
Go with Rin.

Saber can take care of herself. Rin's weakened. We might not be able to beat a Servant, but I'm sure we can hold our own against one long enough to get Saber involved.

>>29317222
[ ] Go with Rin.

>Stay.

Rin apparently would need an extra effort to bring us with, and we wanted to talk to Saber anyway.

>>29317243

>She doesn't want to. Looking at her, she doesn't want to something fierce.

File: 1389005937110.jpg-(5 KB, 256x273, Descartes (1).jpg)

5 KB JPG

>>29317222
>[ ] Go with Rin.

Time for the D?

>>29317222
[X] Stay with Saber.
Let's have that talk with saber now

>>29317222
I'd kind of like to talk to Saber in order to get some things sorted, but being locked out of going to get Rin in case of trouble seems like a bad idea.
>[ ] Stay with Saber
>[ ] Other
Ask if Rin can temporarily key us into the wards anyway so that we have a way to get to her safely in case of trouble, or even in the best case scenario, if she needs us to come down and pack animal some sort of heavy magical junk back up the stairs.

>>29317222
>Go with Rin

>>29317222
Also, she needed to go get a key from somewhere else in the house, and has secondary wards that would need bypassing if she were to bring us down with her.

Tohsaka, inviting another magus into your inner sanctum? Your family really WOULD be scandalized.

>>29317261
Why?

>>29317365
Rin probably told her what's in there.
Kirei Love Shrine

>>29317365

>Because Rin's technically the only one who's safe down there.

>I'll start writing the next bit. I got distracted, sorry.

>>29317391
Eh, it's fine. Last we checked we still couldn't die, even when killed.

>>29317222
DUMB FUCKS YOU ARE LETTING AVENGER IN IF YOU GO IN

>>29317419
oh look
we ignored the warning flag

>>29317365
>>29317261
...oh god. I just had a horrifying thought. An unlikely one, judging by the parties involved, but still a possible one.

What or who does Saber instinctively find repulsive?

Gilgamesh is still around, and since he was Tokiomi's servant during the 4th HGW, he could easily have been keyed into the Tohsaka household wards.

>>29317428
WE ARE MAGICALLY THE SAME AS AVENGER

GRANTING US ACCESS GRANTS AVENGER ACCESS

>>29317434
fuck good point

better not go inside

>>29317439
>>29317434
>>29317419

>Are you changing the vote? I'm just wanting to be clear before I got more than a little bit in.

>>29317434
If this is the case, that means there's next to nothing keeping him from just walking right in our house's front door and fucking with all of our defenses anyway, so we're pretty much doomed.

>>29317453
Yes, let's play it safe.

>>29317453
Can we ask Rin if her compensation is a one-time thing? IE it lets one Shirou in, but not a second Shirou, assuming one exists?

>>29317482
That is a good question to ask, because I really really REALLY want to see what's inside, but the outside chance that it'll give Avenger carte blanche to march into Rin's sanctum isn't something I'd want to risk.

>>29317482
Oh yeah. We still have simac shenanigans to worry about, and Zouken and Assassin still at large.

Also, meta. I seem to recall a book that tried to suck Rin's face off in Fate/Zero. Might wanna have Shirou avoid that book.

>>29317482
I trust Rin to know enough about magical contract law or whatever the fuck she plans on doing so that she can exempt our particular meat-instance of Shirou from the wrath of her ancestral home temporarily, rather than giving a permanent blanket pass to all Shirous, past and present.

>>29317512
Yes, but while we're in there?

>>29317515
He'd have get past Saber first.

>>29317515
>>29317512
>>29317510
>>29317499
>>29317482
>>29317460
>>29317439
>>29317434

>This is entirely my own fault for bringing this level of metaphysics in.

>>29317520
But Shirou is already past Saber.

>>29317515
What about while we're in there? We've got Saber standing at the door ready to sword, and us inside ready to sword. Unless Avenger uses his hitherto completely secret ability to use us as a teleportation beacon I think we're good.

>>29317523
Yes, it is.
You could have just had Avenger be FROM AN ALTERNATE FUTUUUUURE but no.

>>29317523
Coin toss time?

>>29317523
Just do what we always do when all of the posters are confused beyond all hope.

Have Shirou ask Rin how things actually work in-setting, and then defer to her judgement.

the mystery of how we amassed the world's foremost collection of Rin Points is revealed; she's the one person besides Ilya who has half an idea what the fuck is going on in magical physicsland, so we rely on her disproportionately in order to have any hope of doing anything right.

>>29317545
Except her answers when asked how Shirou factors into anything generally boil down to 'I have no fucking idea.' or worse.

>>29317523

Just enter the fucking sanctum

>>29317559
>her answers generally boil down to 'I have no fucking idea.' or worse.
WELL, LOOKS LIKE WE'RE ALL ON THE SAME PAGE, THEN.

Just ask her what the deal with the ward bypass is. If the answer is "it's narrow and temporary", fuck it, go ahead. If the answer is "it will let anyone who ever met you in because of residual shirou residue on their chakras or some shit", don't do it. If the answer is "I DUNNO LOL", so help me.

>>29317595

Given the likelihood that Avenger is us, this seems ill advised. Ask Rin.

>>29317606
>residual shirou residue on their chakras

Lewd.

But yeah, let's go with this.

Has anyone informed AC-Guy of the little girl called AC?

>>29317679
?

>>29317679
What.

>>29317679
What.

AC, confirm or deny these:
>>29316616
>>29316448

I need closure

>>29317690
>>29317691

QM Quest

>>29317730
Oh. Fuck off back to your retarded circlejerk, please.

You gonna update, AC-Guy? I don't mean to bug you but I legit need to bail soon.

>>29317897
We're done for today

>>29317905

Someone should probably archive the thing, then.

>>29317905
You're not AC-Guy.

>>29317937

This late in the run when he said he was planning to wrap up soon, followed by a period of silence?

He probably fell asleep at the keyboard or something. I think it's like 4am in Alaska right now.

>>29317937

Yeah, but see: >>29317240

That was before the giant But If We're Avenger Then Who Was Phone kerfuffle. I'm betting he's lost consciousness by now.

>>29317971
Or maybe he's writing.

>>29317980

He's usually pretty quick on update writing, and hasn't posted in over an hour.

>>29317937
See >>29317240
shitlord

Threadly reminder that the Ebook can be found at http://pastebin.com/kbGzcbDb

>>29315557
I can swap out the single spaced version for the version with an extra space between each paragraph if you like.
Or you could just Ctrl+A and make it double spaced.

Whatever the vote I mostly say stay with Saber. We were looking for the opportunity to have a small chat with her anyway. What I really don't get is why everyone else is so insistent that we go down there. We have a suspicion that going down there could be bad where as staying with Saber allows us to talk to her. Why do some people want to get down there so badly?

>>29318243

Because if anything bad happens down there we can be there to aid a severly weakened rin? And that wards mean that we might not be able to enter easily in a hurry in case of an emeegency?

Correct me if i'm wrong but don't we have an ability to tap into wards or something like that?
If so, we could stay outside with Saber and if something goes wrong, we could probably use the wards to track Rin and force ourselves in.

>>29318374
No, that's not a power we've been shown to have. We hacked the Einzbern Forest a bit because the enchantment there was more passive and observational as opposed to actively hostile and fuck-off-you-shall-not-pass. We aren't going to be breaking in to a fortified place like the the Tohsaka inner sanctum by any method other than "hit wards with magic sword until they break", and I guarantee there is some unpleasant countermeasure in place to punish people who try to brute-force their way in. If Rin doesn't invite us in, we should assume we will never get in.

I would suggest cluing Rin into our suspicion of Avenger having the same magical signature as us, and asking her opinion. If she's fine with it, have us dialed into the wards so we can get in if we're needed, but stay with Saber.

That way, we can react to anything going on whilst also getting our Serious Discussion Time with Saber and ask her what in the hell she's hiding from us.

Also, two questions: a) Why do we care if Avenger can get into the Sanctum? We're about to leave it empty of everything we actually care about.
b) Why do we care about getting into the Sanctum? Shirou doesn't need to touch anything down there.


And as an aside, I support the plan of Rule Breaker'ing ourself. I think we should just get it over with already.

>>29318585
Why Rule Breaker? What would that accomplish?

>>29319657
Because for some reason we're attached to Avenger. And judging by what happened in our dream, it's cause we're somehow contracted to him and the grail. So break that contract and see what happens!

>>29319968
Worst case, the world explodes and Shirou and Avenger start making cameos in other quests.

Shirou fist fighting Red Joker in an idealism vs cynism fight on how to handle girls, when?

>>29318243
Why would Saber lie to us about the 4th war? I think the current situation would force her to spill the beans already. And we went with Rin to protect our girl, so let's not fuck this up!

>>29316667
I thought that was just Nrvnqsr Chaos being a walking mage-abomination whose existence defied the laws of nature, and was not a thing about typical vampires. Still, if we DID deal with a vampire like him...Hoo, shit...
>>29317727
Seconding this. Knowing this could help us puzzle together the reasoning.

>>29317523
I say we accompany Rin. Someone has to. if she passes out, we're down the one person who has a clue about WTF is happening.

Saber private chat can come afterwards.

>>29321313
>I say we accompany Rin. Someone has to. if she passes out, we're down the one person who has a clue about WTF is happening.
>Saber private chat can come afterwards.
This. I'm not afraid there's Gil in the sanctum or anything like that, I'm afraid she could just stumble, and fall downstairs. See>>29316670
>We walk along, with Rin in various stages of independence between lying on me to trying to walk with zero body contact.


* * *
Unneeded theorycrafting:

>>29313141
>"Alright, that actually makes some sense. If we look at it like this, we have two magic boundaries. The one on the inside is set to draw magic in, and the ones on the outside are meant to push it away."
>"All over town?"
>She nods. "Which is weird. The one would just be getting in the other's way....."
>>29312599
>>Harbor
>Kirei was found hanging around there before his death, right? Could be his.
>Unless I'm remembering things correctly?
So, Kirei was responsible for the limiting runes. They started to disappear after his dead, starting with the ones by the church. Now they're all fading away and Avenger's runes start working for him.

>>29315975
>>Merlin is helping us because ???
He's just a genuinely good uncle that wants Saber to have a happy life.

>>29321313
>I thought that was just Nrvnqsr Chaos being a walking mage-abomination whose existence defied the laws of nature, and was not a thing about typical vampires. Still, if we DID deal with a vampire like him...Hoo, shit...
That he was, but initially Arc didn't think he was much out of the ordinary

>>29323280
>He's just a genuinely good uncle that wants Saber to have a happy life.
Well, it's more like have a good field trip before she collapses dead from grievous wounds, like the reverse of waking from the haunt of a half-remembered nightmare, but fair enough.

Has this been archived?

>>29327782
No. Someone who knows how to do that should do that.

>>29327782
>>29328578
What should it be archived with? "In which Shirou wishes he knew knew what the hell Avenger is doing?"

>>29328875
"In which Shirou searches for answers and gears up."

>>29328875
>>29328937
In which /tg/ bemoans its lack of a metaphysics tutorial.

>>29328875
>>29328937
>>29328984
In which NOBODY, least of all Shirou, knows what the hell is going on anymore.

>>29328875
In which we discern the difference between a map and a planet.

>>29329062
>>29329021
In which we attempt to assemble a puzzle out of three different boxes and a Jenga set.

>>29329171
Perfect.

Guy reading back through the entire archive before we pick up again, here, was the first thread not archived? I am a tad irritated that I can't seem to read the first thread.

>>29330225
It didn't have the Fate/Stay Again tag. Here you go:

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/21336915/

>>29330225

Use the 'Grail-Kun' tag. It's the only one that gets every thread.

The AC-Guy tag only gets from after he took over the quest.

>>29330303
Many thanks. I'm basically doing some kind of self-referential argument as I make notes as to what happens. Make notes, come up with first question. Keep taking plain, unbiased notes until question is answered or made irrelevant, to be replaced by new question. Hopefully a rigid train of thought leads me directly to what I should be noticing.

>>29330303
>http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/21336915/
I would kindly like everyone to reread this whole thread and feel moderately uneasy along with me at how some of this dialogue pops out.

>Saber catches my sleeve. "Shirou, I know not her intentions here. Are you sure she's trustworthy?"
>I think back. Some memory seems to be pushing at the back of my mind, something I can't quite grasp. Something that says...
>"Yeah. I think so."

>He pauses, and looks at me. "The grail will grant the wish of whoever obtains it. If you wish to have nothing more to do with this... all you have to do is win. Anything you desire can be yours: money, power, women, purging that guilt your wear like a cloak."
>"Wha-" I feel dizzy. It doesn't makes sense for him to-
>"Kirei, don't go off topic. I asked you to tell him the rules. I didn't ask you to open up his old wounds." A voice cuts in.

>"I see. It is pointless to say anything to these kinds of people, so I was trying to take away his morality while he still misunderstood. …Heh, I guess it is true that compassion is not good for others. And I rather enjoyed it too."

Nrrrrrrgh.

>>29330988
Well. Shit.

>>29334866
So, I got a feeling about something. When we get a chance, ask Saber:

"So, how'd we win last time?"

See if we get a reaction out of her. I have an idea of what may be going on.

>>29335108
Although it would be amazing if you're on to something here, I don't think Saber could tell us anything really useful with how far we've gone off track.

>>29335390
If my theory is right, it won't matter. She should have a bad reaction to the "we" in that.

I'm not talking about the fourth war, here.

I'm talking about the fifth.

>>29335433
I know you're talking about the fifth war, and that we're apparently repeating it, possibly like in F/HA, except the loop lasts longer than four days.

I meant after the shock of the "we" wears off, Saber probably wouldn't be able to tell us much, if anything on how we won last time.

>>29335576
Yeah, that is true. Step one is simply to get it out of her, though. The details can come later.

I don't think it's looping, though. Archer in First Verse makes a quip about how surprisingly easy people can backstab each other, and he was implying we did something. I have a feeling we claimed the grail and did something very unwise with it for one reason or another, and here we are.

Hell, the "first" time you meet Ilya with Bahsahkah, she says "it's the second time we've met 'like this'". Kirei-sama was a bit less veiled in his foreshadowing.

File: 1389070982537.jpg-(241 KB, 566x800, Saber.jpg)

241 KB JPG

>>29314779
WAIT ONE FUCKING SECOND, THOSE RUINS BE MIRRORED.

Those X should have some sort of corisponding place at home and the shrine, where Shirou and archer are housed

>>29335784
So... Would Avenger be the previous us that won the grail and went back then? Because that would explain the Psuedo-brother thing. After all, there really isn't a name for a family member that goes back in time and interacts with themself.

...Not to mention the Vampire and the runes. The Runes vanished soon after the Vampire was killed. If Avenger is/was almost as incompetent with magic as we are, then he needed a mage to do stuff for him more than anything. Being a vampire was just a lucky bonus that ensured that the mage would be more likely to survive.

>>29336309
He's either the previous us, or a thing that spawned from us at the end of the fifth, in this theory. The latter proposition is more likely, as Avenger could then encapsulate any guilt, anger, hatred, and other negative emotions we had out of line with "heroic" standards during the war. We basically may have taken the grail, tried to make ourselves a hero, and gotten a Monkey-Paw-esque result because of it, where we get to try again to conquer our own regrets and mistakes in the form of Avenger meddling in the rerun of the war, which is why our connection seems to be self-referencing while also linked to another person, because we've chopped off, say, 5-10% of our self and made it into Avenger. It may also be why Avalon is all fucked up compared to the usual, and why we can summon a bow-thing, which is more of Archer's shtick.

*pulls out mirror*

AC-Guy
AC-Guy
AC-Guy

>>29337803
You just set his laptop on fire, and a moose pissed on his satellite dish.

Good job.

ia ia AC ftaghn

Armoured Core sucks Mech Warrior 2 is better any day of the week.

>>29337984
I would literally kill a small mammal with my bare hands to get a fully-functioning version of MW2 on my PC.

>>29337995
http://www.myabandonware.com/game/mechwarrior-2-31st-century-combat-34i

So yeah this work?

>>29338159
>http://www.myabandonware.com/game/mechwarrior-2-31st-century-combat-34i

No, it has an issue with incessant crashing and sound doesn't work. People have been fiddling with it forever and I've never seen a working setup.

>So, uh, my notification doohickey told me this thread died like, four hours ago. And linking directly to the link in my twitter took me to Foolz.

>I JUST found out this thread was still alive. Sorry guys.

>I'm still willing to run if we have enough people though.

>>29338282
I think there's two or three people around right now. I'm not entirely sure, though. That's only the amount of people talking. Could be more waiting about.

File: 1389077991974.png-(80 KB, 200x200, 1385965078780.png)

80 KB PNG

>>29338282
ONWARD!