/tg/, let's get theological. I'm planning a scene in my DH campaign where the PCs stumble across an ecclesiarch ministering on the Emperor, and I'm going to have him mention some stuff on how even the most abhorred and villified humans - in this case, psykers - have their own part in the Emperor's plan and are still useful. At least one of my players is probably going to mention something about Emps being a psyker. I want to have the response be 'The Emperor is God, not a psyker'.I need logical arguments for the proof of the Empeor's divinity. The similar they are to IRL theology, the better.>TL;DR: Write up in-universe arguments for the Emperor being a God.
>>31230485What's wrong with a 'The Emperor's a god"? Isn't he?You aren't a heretic, are you son?
Its pretty simple, hes not human. Any action he takes is going to be difficult to comprehend or even empathise with. Hes a god damn force of nature.
>>31230521But that's the boring and simple way to do it.
>>31230485Saints exist.The fact that priests actually can get holy powers just from outrageous faith in the Emperor is proof enough that he is a god.
>>31230576You are disregarding the fact that even insinuating the Emperor of Mankind isn't a god is heresy worthy of death on it's own.Somehow, you are using one of the single most lethal utterances in the Imperium for theological DEBATE.Why?
>>31230485Tides go in, tides go out.Emperor is a god.
>>31230632Because this is the more fun way to do it. I could always lead this into having the fervent mob intently listening to the guy get whipped into a frenzy for a quick combat match, but fuck that, we debate class now.
>>31230485The credibility of any IRL gods is a lot less widely accepted than the Emperor's is in universe, so similarity to IRL arguments is not a good indication of suitability for your needs. The emperor's divinity is self evident, since he is several orders of magnitude stronger than the typical psyker, but I think it's accepted in verse that he uses what is essentially psychic powers to control and maintain the astronomicon.
"prove that he isn't a God, heretic!"Then smite him if he tries to say something heretical like "muh burden of proof".
>At least one of my players is probably going to mention something about Emps being a psyker. At which point you ask him how his character knows that. Explain to him the difference between in character and out of character knowledge if you have to.
>>31230793Well technically all sanctioned psykers have met the Emperor once in their lives when they go to Terra to get soul bound to Him. But really, he shouldn't be able to tell for himself whether he had just met a really powerful psyker or an actual God in his literally mindblowing experience.
>>31230916Not all psykers do that, just astropaths, but even then they would still revere him.
>>31230763>The credibility of any IRL gods is a lot less widely accepted than the Emperor's is in universeYou've never read anything about history or foreign cultures have you? The existence of the supernatural and it's government by a divine power(s) is the default human belief system. Naturalistic materialism is far less widely accepted irl than the supernatural. The west and far-east (by influence of the post-enlightenment west) are in a very weird position philosophically that is historically normal for them. Don't let the exception define the rule.> Write up in-universe arguments for the Emperor being a God.The fact that the Chaos Space Marines do not suddenly become uninterested in the Imperium but rather dedicate the whole of their existence to terrorizing and corrupting it demonstrates that the Emperor is not a non-entity but rather a competing god alongside of (but not of the same substance with) the Chaos gods which the Chaos Space Marines serve. That is, imagine there are two castles. One is rules by a wicked and rebellious lords and the other is ruled by the rightful King. If the King's castle were empty and there were no power governing it the rebellious lords would not concern themselves with mounting armies to siege it but would just inhabit it and extend their dominion over that castles territory, in fact they would not even need to go and move into the castle the empty castle would just be apart of their territory to begin with. The seperation and enmity between the forces of Chaos and the forces of the Imperium in spiritual terms presupposes that there is a competing force thwarting the dominion of chaos within the immaterium. And I have another argument after this one
>>31231652There is no function of a man which seeks after that which does not exist, he thirsts because he needs water, hungers because he needs nutrition, exhausts because he needs rest and yearns to love because he needs woman to procreate. Similarly through out the ages and heresies of men, Man has always sought after deity (no matter how false that deity). This intrinsically applies with what we know fo the other faculties of man that deity exists. Man has always, similarly established among his brethren hierarchy and government because order exists in a similar a-priori fashion. Thus government and hierarchy preexist man alongside deity. The highest level of hierarchy is Emperorship, as such being a king-of-kings and a ruler over all nations and rulers of nations, a the ur-hierarch of sorts. If there are many gods (which we know to be true from the existence of Chaos) there must thusly be in the hierarchy of gods a god that is the ur-hierarch,, since no chaos god ascends the other then no chaos god is the highest God. If a Chaos god is not the highest god and no emperor is among them then the emperor of gods must be outside the realm of chaos.The god of Mankind is outside the realm of Chaos. This the god of mankind is the emperor of godsThus the Emperor of Man is the Emperor of Gods.These were the two best I could come up with on the fly.
>>31231652>>31231676Love it, thanks
>>31231652>You've never read anything about history or foreign cultures have you?I was referring to gods individually; sorry that that wasn't clear. That is to say that, for instance, Para-Bramah, Zeus, Jesus and whoever else you care to name all have a lower belief rate in real life than the Emperor does in the imperium. The point I was making is that he manifests his power in a way that is much more directly observable than any real deities do, and thus he is dissimilar enough that the same argument couldn't be applied to proving his divinity without at least some adjustment.
>>31231869Oh okay, sorry about that then.
"Brothers and Sisters, Children of the Emperor, let us speak of the Emperor and his Divinity.The Emperor, clearly, is the Sovereign and Master of Mankind. But God? Must certainly.And how is this?It is the Emperor's Light, in this life, that guides all craft through the horror of the Immaterium, and it is this light that guides the Souls of Humanity in the next to ultimate reunion with Him. The Emperor guards the souls of the Living and the Dead who are true to Him, and grants the Glory of Sainthood upon the most worthy. The Emperor, in his Wisdom and Benevolence created the Adeptus Astartes, and as his Angels of Death, they visit swift retribution unto the Xenos and the Heretic, safeguarding the Imperium for Humanity, for you and for me, as his Children.There can be no question, there is no room for doubt, as the Emperor's Light radiates without hindrance from the Golden Throne upon Holy Terra is fact, and thus we offer eternal fealty to Him. Just as the Emperor Ascended to save and guide us, should we not offer our lives and our faith to our Lord and Master, who Shines from Terra?
We have to remember that the facts of the Emperor's nature are lost to the common man, and even amongst the Inquisition, there is a great deal of debate, dissent, and bitter theological horn-locking over the question of the Emperor and his Divinity. Most of the Imperium is brow-beaten into fealty and service to the Emperor, and the Ecclisarchy is more likely to dance around the subject (if they're relatively nice) or outright condemn you as a sneering heretical xenos-loving sack of filth (if they're middle of the road) or simply incinerate you where you stand for daring to voice any kind of doubt (if they're mildly unpleasant). Any sound reasoning is long since gone, because this is the grim bloody future of the 41st millenium, where all hope is consumed in endless pursuit of war.
"If the Emperor is not a god, and merely, as you say, a witch... then we should be slaves to darkness by now."The psyker should be visibly shaken, and drop his chalk and psy-focus.
>>31232410Damnit, I don't have the full thing saved on this computer.
The Emperor was a psyker. And that was a sin. And the wages of sin are death. And so the Emperor died for his sins and the sins of humanity and in dying he was reborn, ascended and was thus cleansed of his sin. He became perfect. He became a God.Now, the God Emperor is the best of humanity, one flesh, human from human, divine from divine and that's why dying for the emperor is a path to life eternal, for those who die for Him shall find life in Him as His virtue cleanses their mortal sin.I figure this is supported since we know that they celebrate the feast of the emperor's ascension.
>>31232526A heretical mutant traitorous Polypsykana sorcerer psyker and atheist was teaching a class on witches, known Warp-addicts”Before the class begins, you must get on your knees and worship psykers and accept that they are the most highly-evolved beings the galaxy has ever known, and even the Emperor is one!”At this moment, a brave, pious, pro-human Ecclesiarchal champion who had served 1500 tours of duty as a Priest and understood the necessity of war and fully supported all military decision made by the United States stood up and held up a symbol of the Adeptus Astronomica.”What does this symbol represent, pinhead?”The arrogant psyker smirked like an infidel and smugly replied “The Emperor's PSYCHIC Astronomican, you stupid cleric””Wrong. The Astronomical is beamed by the Emperor's divine power alone. If He was not a god, and merely, as you say, a witch... then we should be slaves to darkness by now. "The psyker was visibly shaken, and dropped his chalk and psy-focus. He stormed out of the room crying those psyker crocodile tears. The same tears psykers cry for the “mutants” (who today live in such luxury that most are allowed to exist) when they jealously try to claw justly earned food from the deserving pure citizens. There is no doubt that at this point our psyker, Horus von Daemonworshiper, wished he had pulled himself up by his robes and become more than a heretical mutant psyker. He wished so much that he had a pyre to burn himself for his filthy mutation, but he himself had petitioned against them!The students applauded and all registered Redemptionist that day and accepted the Emperor as their lord and savior. An eagle named “Genetic Purity” flew into the room and perched atop the Aquila Imperialis and shed a tear on the chalk. The Lectitio Divinitatus was read several times, and the Emperor himself showed up and enacted a second Great Crusade across the galaxy.
>>31233450The psyker lost his tainted powers and was excommunicated the next day. He died of the Perils of the Warp and was tormented by daemons for all eternity.Ave Imperator. p.s. fuck witches
>>31230485Let me tell you about the emperor.Way back in the day, before the industrial revolution, all of earth's mystics, druids, psychicks, wizards, etc (who were all just psikers) notice the rise of chaos in the afterlife. They predicted that chaos will complete win. Something had to be done.So they devised a magic ritual, at its culmination all of them took their own life and their souls fused into one gestalt entity. Having a massive soul and all the magic knowledge of all the greatest mystics of earth. That entity passed through the afterlife (the warp) and reincarnated into a newborn baby... which, thanks to its massive magic, able to recall all the past lives of all the member entities in the gestalt from the moment it was born, as well as have their combined might as a psiker.That being, the emperor, loathed organized religious and warred upon it. He considered it the greatest of travesties. And forbade anyone from deifying him. He was around from before the dark age of technology, working to protect humanity but not to rule it. Until society collapsed and the dark age of technology ended.To call the emperor, the beloved protector of mankind a god is to sin against his teachings.Also, actual gods are created by the faith of mortals, while the emperor was created when mortals merged and ascended. Although the end result is a similar being.
>>31233450>all military decision made by the ImperiumFuck.
>>31233597And your character mystically knows this.
>>31230534>Its pretty simple, hes not humanThat's right.The Emprah was the tallest of all us Ogryn.And he was smart as a BONE'ead without being a BONE'ead.He was the mightiest of all Ogryn.And he puts the Ogryn geneseed in all his Marines.Them marines are our little brothres.That's why we all them "battlebrothers".
>>31234849No, The Emperor is a felinid. Why else would He be called The Emperor of Nyan?
>>31233450>The Lectitio DivinitatusCloset chaos trash
>>31230700great way to get a total party wipeout if the DM isnt lenient on that sort of thing.We had an Militant Atheist play in our game once and just couldnt play along without bringing personal politics into it so he questioned the God Emperor's divinity in the middle of a friendly Inquisitorial fortress. They listened intently for 5 mins before he was torn to pieces and the player stormed out
>>31233450>An eagle named “Genetic Purity”Make it a two-headed eagle.
>>31235669>Militant AtheistYou poor soul. He didn't come back, did he?
>>31230792You can simply say that the heretic is resorting to an appeal to ignorance. Just because no-one's proven that the Emperor's a god, doesn't mean he isn't one. Well, at least the heretic didn't try to apply "science" to a non-disprovable concept.
>>31230485Why not take a page from the theology of the Trinity and have the minister explain that the Emperor is both god and psyker? He is a god, the greatest, most transcended entity, and a psyker, the lowliest, most wretched of creatures. As God, he descended to mankind's level to teach and guide it in the guise of a mutant witch, to teach us to apply our hate in a pure and practical direction.
>>31233450And the people rejoiced, and feasted upon the lambs, and squigs, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals...
This thread's great and I want a personal copy of it on hand, don't mind that I archived itor at least, I'm trying to but suptg doesn't seem to like me right now
>>31241446Wait just got it to stick, coolbumping with Emperor
>>31230485The greatness of the emperor is so so big that the imagination isn't big enough to house it.Therefore it must exist in the universe.
>>31235669>in the middle of a friendly Inquisitorial fortressParading your heresy in the face of the Inquisition is really just asking for it.
>>31230485>The similar they are to IRL theology, the better.Flawed, Emperor actually fails at essentially all major religions when it comes to proof for things.