>player makes an atheist cleric.>says shit like "That wasn't Pelor, that was just some light refracting in some swamp gas.">plays the character like the D&D equivalent of Karl Pilkington>mfw
>>33785942You had me at Karl Pilkington.
>>33785942>player makes an atheist cleric.h-how does that even fucking work? Were you the GM? if so why did you let him run this and not call it out as bullshit right at character creation?!I know I'm probably blowing it out of proportion but it's really bugging me, cleric has to be the one class where the atheist thing Does. Not. Work.
>says shit like "I'mma fix 'em up.">scratches off a cast of "cure light wounds">party paladin tells him he can heal because of the gods>cleric gets all put-off>"I rubbed some fucking dirt onnit and told him te quit being a fukkin baby."
>>33785942>That was just some swamp gas!>We're in the tallest mountain range on the continent!>A bird did it then!>A bird reflected the light to look like Pelor's light?>No, it had something shiny in its talons and flew by at the right moment!>That seems even more improbable.>Oh, shut up.
>>33786033Eberron setting. Learn your sum.
>>33786033>Cleric's god has poor self-esteem and hardly believes in himself.Cut him some slack. His god is just having a hard time.
>>33786033>Were you the GM?>h-how does that even fucking work?I've made him the accidental cleric of the goddess of luck. She thinks this is hilarious.
>>33786090>Eberron setting.that setting can go strait to hell.
>>33785942Technically you can be cleric of a cause. Someone actually could be a cleric of aggressive atheism. Though they'd need to destroy temples, artifacts, and worshipers of any deity.
>>33786115Aside from the some oddities from normal rules, the setting itself is pretty great. Sounds like you just mad.
>>33786099Hell's Bells...What if his God was like David Brent?
>>33786124Could you be an extreme narcissist and be a cleric of yourself?
>>33786235A cleric of muh dick
>>33786235You presumably might even start gaining Divine Ranks if you make it high enough.
>>33786235DON'T BELIEVE IN YOURSELF OR YOUR FALSE GODS. BELIEVE IN ME, WHO BELIEVES IN YOU.
>>33786115The races in Eberron are my biggest pet peeve about the setting they have clear differences between the different demi-human races like the Aerenal elves and the Khorvaire elves. but they all have the same stats which have no bearing on their culture or physiology. Aerenal elves should have some sort of bonus to necromancy and talenta halfings should get a bonus to ride and handle animal, it's not that hard keith.
>>33786067This is great. Can we get more.
>>33786235You'd have to make will saves to resist looking in mirrors and be distraught at even a single hit point being knocked off, but why not?>>33786258Cleric of dragon dick? Favoured enemy, female dragons.
>>33786235>>33786258Hold on nows, this guy: >>33786124is talking about eberron setting rules. 3.5/pathfinder, the gods are actual beings, and grant the clerics powers. Eberron, the magic comes from the devotion to the subject. Or something like that.
>>33785942>PC plays a cleric of Cher>MFW he believes in life after love
>>33786033Depending on the system, in Pathfinder and, I'm pretty sure, 3.5e you don't have to be a cleric of a deity. Just a cause
>>33786215>the setting itself is pretty greatrules have nothing to do with it, I personally think the setting is stupid and lame. You don't have to agree with me, and if you like it fine, I don't care. I still find it lame.
>>33786390I've never really been a fan myself and I can't really pinpoint why, the setting just feels really lackluster to me.Although I'm actually running some pre-made eberron adventures right now and my group loves it. I'm not even really sure why since I'm not really that into it.
>>33786456I mean except the race thing, I know why that annoys me >>33786308
>>33786090Can't be Eberron. Pelor is Greyhawk, or generic 3e D&D.
>>33785942https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VAwxbEdGUgThis needs to be your characters holy book.
>>33786367Yeah you've never had to have a deity as a paladin or cleric. You can just pick one of the alignments and say that's your cause (Good, Evil, Law, Chaos, etc).>>33786456I feel the same way. Everyone I know loves Eberron and I think its mostly because of the lightning rail and airships. You could probably add magitech to any fantasy setting and get a similar experience.
>>33786113Nice solution. I assume she's also considered the "trickster" goddess?
>>33786235here's how it worksnote this does not apply in 4e or 5e, where clerics are explicitly servants of the gods and nothing else.
>>33786500Personally, I love Eberron because of the Dragonmarked Houses and their influence on the main continent.I love shit like that, be it in Battletech or what have you.
>>33786476>not wanting actual racial diversity in your game>hurr let's all play humans, in an all human setting, but put masks on and forget they're not real>durr if it looks different, it's just as good as actually being differentIt's like your characters are LARPing or something.
>>33786500>>33786531That's the weird thing, it has a lot of cool elements that are great when taken individual but somehow just don't work for me as an ensemble.
>>33786531Forgot about that. Weren't they just like the Great Houses from Battletech + magic powers?
>>33786552what are you even talking about?
>>33786576do you even go full retard?
>>33785942>play an atheist in a larp where i've met gods>HUUUR U A BAD ROLEPLAYER responses start at any given event>the dark god is more powerful than your shithead god>and I knew that guy before he went all incorporeal and could beat his ass>all it takes to kill the idiot you worship is the right weapons>ergo, your god is weak and is no more a god than that fucking tree over there>ALL HAIL THE TREE....My character is an asshole.
>>33786563Fair enough. DMs have been stealing bits and pieces from various setting and putting their own spin for their own setting since the start of D&D, don't see why anyone should be forced to use a setting wholesale. I nabbed Hommlet/Temple of Elemental Evil stuff and dropped them into my own custom setting game, just with readjusted flavor/deity influence/etc.
>>33786527so my character's philosophy is 'I'm the best'. And he's going to embody that philosophy so it'll never die.
>>33786552You clearly misunderstood me, I'm saying it annoys me that despite the diversity of the subraces their stats are all the same and don't reflect those cultural/physiological differences. For example Aerenal elves, Khorvaire elves and Valenar elves are all totally different but they all have the same elf stats despite the obvious differences between the subraces. The same is true of the halflings and dwarves of the setting.
>>33786308I thought the fact that Eberron didn't turn each different culture of a humanoid race into a new subrace was one of the nicer points of the setting. There are racial feats specific to those from a certain region, like Aerenal Arcanist for Aerenal Elves, Bladebearer of the Valenar for Valenar Elves, and Dinosaur Wrangler for Talenta Halflings that are decent choices for 1st level feats in a typical game.
>>33786565The Dragonmarked Houses are effectively the powerhouses of industry in the setting. They each hold close to a monopoly over various services/goods, and while not actually "royalty" like that are present in the various nations, are practically treated almost as such. They hold some major sway.Think of it almost like corporations run amok with governments having to play ball, but with magical backing.
>>33786308That's just a different philosophy that Keith Baker has compared to some other folk. I understand and appreciate the point of view, but I'm also okay with having a bunch of different subraces.I remember that the 3.5 Player's Guide to Eberron brought in/placed a bunch of various subraces and other newer races within the setting, for people who want that sort of thing.
>>33785942I played an atheist cleric in a ravenloft game (he maintained clerical magic just required believing in something, and that what that something was didn't matter.He maintained he would worship any god that could prove their existence, and ended up converting after some cultists have him Vecna's street address.He was still good aligned, but Vecna obviously existed so atheism didn't make sense at that point.
>>33786332Actually, clerics of concepts are native to the 3.5 PHB.
>>33786629>ALL HAIL THE TREEAnd then a handful of radical fringe outcast druids form a cult surrounding that specific tree.Good job.
>>33786657the relevant text here is that your philosophy needs to be "so compelling that it attracts magical energy and faith", and needs to gain "widespread acceptance and belief".it's not enough to simply have a philosophy, you need to convince people to really, really believe it first.
>>33786280I ran a game once where the players were priests of Not-Kamina, a CG deity of Freedom and Strength. Neither of them were clerics.A Wilder with feats focusing on touch attacks and unarmed combat and a Soulknife with a large great-hammer of psychic energy. When asked about their powers they explained it as their fighting spirit made manifest. Their god does not grant miracles, he shows his students that the power has always been inside them all along. Together they travelled across a wasteland of ice and sand on a quest to do the impossible. They ignored requests and warnings from NPCs with religious fervour. They punched dragons and negotiated with talking fish and challenged grim mountain spirits to drum battles in a psychedelic daze. The characters were built in a way that was totally unoptimized yet somehow completely overpowered.It was one of the most bizarre and entertaining games I'v ever ran.
>>33786500>You could probably add magitech to any fantasy setting and get a similar experience.which is wierd because I know that's a pet peeve of mine, I'm just saying "magic is their technology" is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. But that's just me, I have no problem with advanced (i.e. modern) technology, and lots of magic, just as long as they are kept somewhat as two different things.>I think its mostly because of the lightning rail and airshipsThey must be desperate because I can name at least 10 other airships cooler than the ones in Eberron.like the one posted here, which could not exist in Eberron,
>>33786500>Everyone I know loves Eberron and I think its mostly because of the lightning rail and airships. You could probably add magitech to any fantasy setting and get a similar experience.Eberron has more going for it than airships, lightning rail, and warforged. The magitech elements are the most visible but they don't go as far as settings that focus on magitech.Eberron also has a main continent that pretty much came out of WWI and all that entails, another continent dominated by psychic North Korea, a bizarre wasteland created by a disaster that no one has how the hell happened, dragons with more motivation beyond gold and princesses, gods aren't big name celebrities, and a prophetic device built into world that tells of potential events. It helps that the setting was built with rules and current genre paradigms in mind.
>>33786235Technically, yes. But if you lose faith in yourself you would stop having spells. It would be like falling.
>>33786235Have that in my very party right now.
>>33786881What if you go around screaming how great you are until enough people start questioning it?
>>33786527I was pretty sure Paladins and Clerics in 4e could manifest power solely based on belief in anything, in which case it just used their willpower to tap power from the astral sea.
>>33786500Don't forget that Eberron was built with one rule in mind: if it exists in a D&D splatbook it can be found in Eberron
>>33787051>Eberron has more going for it than airships, lightning rail, and warforged.I wouldn't know, I can't get past the lame.though...Probably having the setting introduced to be by power-gammer man-children who could really give 0 shits about actual roleplay and setting lore (and yes even the DM is a hard-core power-gammer) probably didn't help my opinions.
>>33787083It's like a weird magical catch 22 if you ever did too, you lose the ability to cast spells because you lose faith in yourself. Since you fail to provide yourself with you divine spells to which you are accustomed thereby losing further faith in yourself. And it continues to perpetuate itself, it's a vicious cycle
>>33786669The different racial cultures are not different subraces, they are just different cultures. The different cultures allow the races to take region/culture-specific feats and prestige classes without having to keep track of minor changes in racial ability. Different cultures will likely have different classes being common, so you are likely to see a Khorvaire elf as a commoner or expert but few Valenar elves are not warriors, fighters, or rangers since their recent ancestors were mercenaries.You don't have to have different racial abilities to reflect cultural differences when you can do that with classes, skills, and feats.
>>33787254What do you find lame about airships, lightning rail, and warforged? Is it like the setting is trying too hard to be different?Yeah, it sounds like you were introduced to Eberron by people who only looked at the surface for new toys.
>>33787203same thing that would happen if you did that in real life
I thought atheist clerics were monks. More centered on a philosophy then a deity.
>>33787423it's possible to play a cleric devoted to an ideal rather than a deity. I got a cleric in my party devoted to righteousness and purging evil (glory bonuses a shit tho)
>>33786763So that's when this shit started.No, you're a cleric you need a god or gods. Something that grants you the power to create miracles, and they have power over the concepts they cover or define.You want a cleric of atheism? Play a wizard.
>>33787484Read the OP, he's just having a laugh.
>>33787484That's what I thought. That a cleric casting "spells" is just manifesting their deity's will. Their "spells" are actually prayers.
>>33787484Depends on the settings. Plenty of settings are "Here are your gods. They run reality. You want a piece of that pie? Pick one you like and follow his rules. Otherwise get out."Some are"There are gods, they just control a lot of magic and serve as a nice focus for faith and worship. Your faith in them channels divine power back at you through their ideals. Bit like having a prebuilt character option. If you want to go more freestyle can worship these concepts."And then some settings are "Gods are dead. We got no idea where you get your powers from. Shits whack yo."And a few other variations. I think they all can work. A cleric of atheism is just stupid though.
>>33787337But some of the stats are culturally derived, mostly things like weapon/armor/skill bonuses. like valenar elves should probably get scimitar and double scimitar prof instead of the traditional straight bladed weapons to reflect their cultural origin, they get those because of martial training not because they have an inherent ability to do so. Similarly Talenta halflings would probably get a bonus to ride/handle-animal instead of move silently and climb because they spend their lives riding dinosaurs through open plains instead of slinking around city buildings and alleys. My point is that it is exactly because of the cultural differences between races that they would have different skill/feat/wpn bonuses.I admit the differences I'm talking about are really minor and I usually implement the changes myself anyway. I know it really shouldn't bother me at all but it does.I respect that other people have different opinions about how races are best implemented in ttrpgs but this is mine.
>>33786527>>33787237In 4e Clerics can choose to either to follow a god or a domain. Paladins have to follow a god since their whole schtick is a warrior in service to a god.While I'm not sure about other settings in 4e all divine characters (except Invokers) get their powers from divine rites and rituals not from the gods themselves. So technically you could con your way into being a Cleric.
>>33787555I agree with you to a point. While it would be nice if official material often reflected this by giving you variants, there are only so many pages in a book and sometimes you are working on a budget. Any GM worth his salt though will atleast consider a reasonable request like "Hey my halfling is from the plains instead of the usual city-scape. Can I trade out my racial bonus to stealth with some more appropriate skills?"
>>33786235I once experienced an interesting variant of this in 3.5e I was DMing. The guy was a cult leader and the faith his followers had in him enough to give powers equivalent to a low level cleric. He'd keep converting people as the campaign progressed, so he'd get increasingly more powerful.Dubious at best in terms of lore, but if I wanted deep, well thought out fluff that I couldn't bend or outright ignore whenever it suited me, I wouldn't be playing DnD
>>33787518I've had players who cherry pick shit just because and excuse it as some bullshit belief in themselves.Belief in yourself is called self-esteem, it doesn't grant any goddamn divine favour or power.
>>33786115if you be shit talkin eberron i will fucking cut you.
>>33787623>I've had players who cherry pick shit just because and excuse it as some bullshit belief in themselves.Then, as the DM, you should tell them that your game is supposed to be more serious then that. I don't see why that means all games need to be run like that, though, just because that's how you prefer to run them.
>>33787644Eberron a shit
>>33787595Yeah that's basically what I do. Like I said it's minor and I know it shouldn't bother me, but it does.
>>33787484it goes back to AD&D, see >>33786527it's probably intended to cover things like buddhist or taoist priests.note that it's not "your power comes your faith", which is a common interpretation. you're still drawing power from the favor of an external source - either a force, or from the collective belief of society in a particular philosophy. these things simply aren't singular, sentient beings like deities, but they behave in a similar way - kind of like "the force" from star wars.
>>33787484No, fuck you. I'll be a cleric of skepticism and you can't stop me! I'll channel the power of logic and reality! My spells will specialize in dispelling the magic of deity-based clerics!
Recently in another thread I got a PF setting book called Thunderscape. I guess its taken from old games by the same name. Would not know never played them. The setting itself though is really cool. If you like Eberron i would suggest giving it a try. Leaning more on the 'steampunk' instead of 'arcanepunk' bit but I still like it. Cherry pick some stuff from it for other settings. If anyone has already looked through it, I have suggested to some others you could do a passable Deus Ex type game with it.
>>33787484or i can just not do shit you tell me, random dick on the internet
>>33787708You could be a cleric who ascribes to a philosophically skeptic doctrine. That's an entirely possibly and decently sound character concept. You would just adventure to determine the nature of truth, especially insofar as the nature of the gods is concerned.
>>33787649Clerics, Priests, and Paladins have divine magic, right. This means their power is of the divine, of divinity and thus gods. Whether or not the gods are actually real, they need a divine focus of their power thematically otherwise you're just a wizard that can wear armor. The only way i'd allow you to get a cleric of yourself, is if you fancied yourself a god. If you want to just cast spells, but not have any of the trappings of the divine, be a wizard. I wouldn't allow cleric of atheism period, as that is the opposite of belief in a divine.
>>33787693>your power comes your faithyour power comes from* your faith
>>33786033>h-how does that even fucking work? He is enlightened by his own intelligence. He doesn't need some phony god's blessing.
>>33787048> I'm just saying "magic is their technology" is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.You are a bad person and I feel bad for talking to you.Most of the fantasy genre suffers from the authors trying to incorporate idea s that they haven't really grasped into their settings just because.Magic and Tolkien races are the two biggest offenders. Thus the idea that magic would be kept separate from technology while the root of the word "technology" itself comes from "trickery" and which has always been about exploiting natural phenomena. Guess what magic is in most of these settings?More likely than not if a persons will could affect reality it would be called physics..The original idea of magic required for there to be a god or spirit or something outside of the norm that could affect changes to the environment . After you understand the process and can control it reliably it ceases to be magic.
>>33787555Ah, you make a good point with the minor things. Like switching the longsword proficiency elves get to scimitar proficiency for Valenar elves and moving the +2 skill bonuses.I was thinking that you wanted something more drastic, like all Valenar elves are wood elves and Aerenal elves are grey elves. I dislike that approach because it tends to pigeonhole races/cultures in a game to being only good at one thing and mediocre at everything else.
>>33787843It depends on the campaign setting really, I agree that playing an atheist cleric is pretty dumb if you're playing in a campaign setting where there is not only an established pantheon of deities but they are also accepted to be actual beings which exist in some form and channel divine power.However if you're playing in a game where there is an alternate source of divine power, like an omnipresent energy that exists from the creation of the universe that deity level powers can channel and grant to their clerics but certain individuals learn to channel it (Ur-Priests and the like) athiest clerics are a viable option.
>>33787843you've no comprehension of what atheism actulally means and are the precise reason feadorafags shove their dicks in peoples facesalso read the rules, clerics don't need gods
>>33787950>Magic and Tolkien races are the two biggest offendersyou talkin' shit about Tolkien, mate?No, but seriously, are you? Because I'm not sure that complaint is very applicable.
>>33788024Damn the rules. A Cleric/Priest that doesn't have the trappings of the divine is just a wizard.
>>33788011I mean that's basically what Ur-Priests are Athiest/Agnostic Clerics
>>33788068All that guy needs is a fedora.
>>33788056yes but the average dm thinks of divinities as zeus or vishnutell me, what do buddhists worship?
>>33788124even the christians think their god is zeus and act confused whenever they see wheels within wheels
>>33788084For you M'lady
>>33788046no i think he means having elves and shit without actually considering how that effects the world at large
>>33788231Now all he needs is a neckbeard, a poorly made katana he bought at a mall, and a waifu body pillow.
>>33788124Buddhists worship the concept of the void, aka Nirvana, ultimate nothingness. Thy follow the scriptures of their sage Gautama Buddha and his lessons of how to achieve Nirvana.Also, I said the trappings of divinity, not actual divine. A cleric that doesn't pray, have symbols, gestures, or doctrines/scriptures is not a cleric. They need dogma, something greater than the self that they believe in, and from that they get power. Without that, they're wizards.For example, a Buddhist cleric would have powers related to divine oneself from situations, how to live well with less, and even greater actual realization of void in the world. Their healing wouldn't heal wounds, but divine the self from pain until no pain is felt.
>>33788293What about a cleric of the "self"? Things like independence, freedom, and personal growth. It'll essentially amount the same as a cleric of himself, but it looks a bit nicer.
>>33788229Worse, most fantasy doesn't include any reasoning behind the existence of different sapient or indeed *any* sapient beings other than these guys were made by good/evil gods. If this reason exists it does not imply anything beyond the existence of Tolkien races- a god never decides to make a new race in the middle of the story for example- and the effect of something nonhuman being able to talk to people is ignored (do animals have souls? do elves?).This is before we get into nitpicking territory of widely diverging biology all having the same diet. I can't eat Thai but I bet you I could eat Orc. The question remains whether or not thats cannibalism.
>>33788293And there you have your atheist cleric"human independance from deities" is as good a concept as any
>>33788461I'd allow that, if they took it to divine lengths, and the powers were all about freedom of movement and improving the self, healing the self. No powers that effect others at all, and certainly no goddamn smiting or fireballs or any of that shit. Their doctrines are all about self empowerment, but they cannot magically improve or help others, for it is requires that others must help themselves.
>>33788502That sounds more like anti-theist cleric to me. Maybe just humanist cleric if you were going for less bite.
>>33788502Buddhists aren't atheists. They're non-theists. There is a difference.So they would actually by nontheistic clerics.
>>33788293> A cleric that doesn't pray, have symbols, gestures, or doctrines/scriptures is not a cleric. By that measure I'd qualify as a cleric as well and so would any character whose ever stubbed their toe.
>>33788461>it looks a bit nicer.Fuck that. Go full grimdark and make this your holy book.
>>33788559So you can cast magic then? Teach me your ways.
>>33788553Atheist and non-theist are synonymous. They simply mean the lack of belief in a god or gods.
>>33788587Yeah they are literally the same in almost every conceivable sense.
>>33788566Well, in the sense of "nicer," I meant in a meta context. It looks cleaner, more palatable to the audience. I could completely believe the character refusing to make use of his divine arts for mercenary or ideological reasons.
>>33788610...they're spelled differently. That's all I got.
>>33788587>>33788553I don't know about the exact terminology, but theres a difference in concepts.There's "People who don't think the begins called gods exist" and then other people who think "the beings others called gods are really just something else that we shouldn't worship"Richard Dawkins is an example of the first, some Buddhists, most 'atheist' Clerics, and the Emperor are examples of the latter.
>>33788619That's the one way
>>33788624>There's "People who don't think the begins called gods exist"Atheists.>people who think "the beings others called gods are really just something else that we shouldn't worship"You mean this guy?
>>33788624At the very least non-theism is a subset of atheism, they may not be exactly the same but they are closely interrelated terms, to nitpick over the semantic differences between the to is dumb.
>>33788559"If Not-A then B" does not imply "If Not-B, then A".
>>33788553There really isn't. Maybe it's different in America, they seem to obsess about this stuff , but the difference in believing that there are no gods, there is no evidence in gods and the gods don't matter is so negligible as to fit into a single denomination of any religion (if atheism were a religion instead of a feature of religion, right now we're talking about it in the wrong terms, a cleric of chastity or a cleric of charity is a better comparison than a cleric of Pelor).
>>33786527So I could be a Cleric of Libertarianism?Holy Friedman!
>>33788664>>33788661Its like if I was a follower of Pelor, a skeptic in D&D wouldn't say "Pelor doesn't exist", because in most settings divine magic makes it obvious he does. Instead, the skeptic would say"Pelor is not philosophically worthy of your worship" and then argue from there.
>>33788682There is actually. Atheism is a subset of nontheism, so all atheists are nontheists, but not all nontheists are atheists. Agnostics technically fall under nontheism.
>>33788685Domains: LIberationOther domains: None
>>33788566That's not full grimdark anon, It's full retard.
>>33788682As a positive (explicit) antitheist atheist verging on theological noncognitivist, I can attest that there's no difference in the technical sense, and that poster is just applying window dressing.>>33788710Agnosticism is not a valid position in itself. It's a modifier applied to atheism or theism. It means either you don't think you know enough to be sure or your don't think it's possible to know enough to be sure.
>>33785942"I always wanted to kick a Lich up the arse"
>>33788753>Not a cleric of industryPleb.
>>33788753Heralds: Deities of libertarianism use a level 20 Ron Paul as a herald.
>>33788819I disagree with you. Agnosticism is the position of not knowing, period. Ignosticism is what you're thinking of, which it's not possible to know for sure, because if there were they're greater than us to know.
>>33787950>>33788469You.I like you.
>>33788819How is agnosticism not a valid position? I would argue that our inability to establish objective truth the only valid position is to acknowledge that we can't know anything, less so the existence of a god or gods, or any divine presence whatsoever.
>>33788904Because it's saying "I'm uncertain, but my preference is this." You aren't positive, but you lean a certain way. And you do lean a certain way, don't say you don't.
>>33788871>>33788904Ignosticism falls under agnosticism. It's essentially the second version I described.As far as agnosticism as a position in it's own right, here's the problem. Theistic claims are positive claims that require evidence to support them. This makes atheism the default position in terms of logical argument. An agnostic person would therefore default to being an atheist, but can be a theist via Pascal's wager or some-such line of thinking. Being an atheist doesn't require a person actively reject the existence of god(s); it means they don't accept claims of existence. When people say they're just agnostic, what they really mean is they're agnostic implicit atheist.
>>33788956Not necessarily, it's more like saying "I acknowledge the possibility that a god or gods exist or that there are none, or that any possible number of answers could possibly exist, however these things are essentially unknowable". Whether or not someone leans a certain way doesn't negate the validity of the system of belief.
>>33788995And it fundamentally doesn't answer the question of what that person believes. That's why it's a qualifier; it changes or softens that answer, but does not and cannot replace it.
>>33788989I disagree, every agnostic i've met is a pragmatic agnostic. Essentially they don't know and don't want to. Their existence has little effect on personal human affairs and should be of little theological significance.
>>33786308Maybe they do not get a change in the core book or in 4e, but i do believe they get different stats and starting stuff depending on where they came from.I think the only kind of elf not stated in the book is drow, but i think they assume you are using drow from the monster manual just with no Lolth
>>33787950>the authors trying to incorporate idea s that they haven't really grasped into their settings just becauseI have, and magic is really only alluring if you look at it from a meta-perspective.take electric lighting, why would someone want to run incandescent lights through their house when you could cast a light spell? well a light spell has verbal and somatic components, enough that body armor could inhibit it, so which is easier, flailing your arms around in a very specific motion while speaking the magic words every time you need to take a latenight piss, or just flip a switch and be done with it? Or would you prefer to spend 350+ gold on a regular basis for wands of light? provided a wizard is in the area to supply them.let's face it even when you have magic available, non-magical tech is still more practical.
>>33786280Read the fucking quote you just posted. He believed in Simon, not in himself.
>>33789021But it does answer that question, you seem to believe that every person has to accept one or the other possibility when that is simply not true.People can accept that they can't know and therefore do not have to make a choice between two (or more) equally invalid options.
>>33789076They very well could, I'm only familiar with the 3.5 materials.
>>33789058Then that's apatheism, which is a justification for atheism.Again, with regard to questions of whether positive claims are true, the logical default is disbelief. Atheism is the logical default. It only seems like this isn't the case because the vast majority of humans believe in at least one god.
>>33789093If that's the case, they're just trying to evade the question.
>>33786669That's not a setting problem, that's a problem with mechanics. Hopefully the 5e subraces feature will fix this though; that's kind of what it's for.>>33787337Subrace and culture are not and never have been distinct concepts in D&D. Except with humans because they're afraid of being called racists.
>>33785942>Atheist ClericAs a DM you should pretty much strip him of his powers after a few sessions.I GO TO CAST A HEAL>Nothing happensNo god = No clerical powers.sorry.steer him into refinding his god if he wants his powers back.
>>33787541>"Gods are dead. We got no idea where you get your powers from. Shits whack yo."What setting is this? Closest I can think of is Dark Sun which is "Gods are dead. No powers for you".
>>33788989Pascals wager is fundamentally flawed and I dislike that it is used so often and proposed as a counter to atheistic beliefs. Under pascals wager he seems to conveniently forget that faith is explicitly necessary as an entry to heaven, simply living as a christian does not guarantee that. You can't simply fake faith especially to an omniscient god. Furthermore with the varieties of religion that seem to require beliefs in their doctrine to the exclusion of all others in order to achieve ascension/nirvana/paradise/heaven betting on one religion would be specious at best.You would be better living as a virtuous atheist than a "fake" christian/muslim/whatever who pays lip service to a god they don't actually believe in.
>>33789082>let's face it even when you have magic available, non-magical tech is still more practical.>implying that "flipping a switch" is all that's required to light a room with electricity>forgetting about how one must first also understand the mechanics of collecting, using, and conducting electricity through a wire into a (assuming incandescent lightbulb, because you mentioned it) vacuum, where it will encounter a different wire of a substance that will resist the flow to the extent that heat will build up in that substance, not enough to melt it or overheat the delicate glass bulb but just enough to glow a suitable amount, and then allowing that electricity to complete its circuit so the whole thing actually fucking works>implying that all of this is somehow easier than (depending on how magic in your setting works) flailing your arms around in a very specific motion while speaking the magic words every once and a whileWhat the hell kind of logic is that?
>>33789161The rules say you don't need a god to cast spells though so that's a bit of a dick move.
>>33789161see>>33787518Also, you should probably see a doctor about that stick up your ass.
>>33786033>Not knowing ur-priests existJesus, 3.5 kiddies.
>>33789125It's not, it's giving the only answer that's logically available.
>>33789181I wasn't arguing in favor of Pascal's wager. I was just using it as (I wager) the most common example of how someone could be an agnostic theist.I agree with you, but that's not really relevant to the argument at hand.
>>33789188Depending on the setting, normal people might prefer to go through all that effort because they don't want to put in all the pain and effort of studying magic, or even have the ability. Also, depending on the setting, the wizard might not even be able to use the lightbulb anyway, because his ambient magic screws it up.
>>33789166It's nietzche's personal setting: "Grimdark the Nihlisming"
>>33789082The Ancient Greeks invented the steam engine.Which is easier- strapping it to a metal pole and feeding it fuel or invading foreign lands, capturing slaves in war and having them carry your stuff?
>>33789110If i can find the ebberon race guide for 3.5 in one of the trunks, i will confirm it. It also makes shifters look like they were not just shoe horned in to make a beast men race.
>>33789220Well, yeah, it depends on the setting. But the guy I was responding to said>magic is really only alluring if you look at it from a meta-perspective.Which, in the context of a setting where there is no electrical infrastructure and a light spell is a couple second's wavy-arms-dance and an ounce or two of mana, is obviously bullshit.
>>33789216Ah I kind of skimmed your post before, I get where you're coming from now that I read it with more scrutiny.
>>33786885And this is now my next character.
>>33789204Ur-priests exist in 3.5,Complete Divine, p 70.
>>33789199>Divine Spells>DivineYeah you need a god for that.Really a dm should strip powers as soon as a player can't answer the question "Who's your deity?"I'm an atheist, but Clerics should always have a god.Why not go for a dark cleric? Evil gods? murdering children?
>>33789310What if you're a cleric of not a god but a demon or some similar lesser being? Also, the rules explicitly disagree with you.
>>33789310You shouldn't need a diety. A belief in a higher power, perhaps, but that's a broader and more nebulous claim, and opens up a few more options.
>>33789310In 3.whatever, Clerics can get powers from worshipping an impersonal ideal as easily as worshipping a personal deity. This is spelled out explicitly multiple times in the PHB.This is just the default assumption, of course. There are some settings in which you DO need a god (Forgotten Realms), some settings in which NOBODY gets any divine magic (Dark Sun), and some settings in which nobody is sure if ANY of their gods exist, but the magic had gotta come from SOMEWHERE, right? (Eberron)
>>33789361Templars get divine magic from the sorcerer kings,
>>33789361There are other classes that work off of this as well. I think Kinsie or whatever they are only have to swear fealty to an ideal or lord and the power grants them the weapon upgrades.
>>33788262I need to clear my browser history now.
>>33789493Oh my god, that's great
>>33789493This makes me euphoric
>>33786527That is fucking wrong. 4e core says clerics can be devoted to concepts and causes instead.
>>33785942I am now imagining this guy stuck in a medieval high-fantasy setting and just genuinely not enjoying himself. Now, I'm not talking about a character who's attributes are inspired by him, I mean this motherfucker just wakes up one day in goddamn Middle Earth and decides he's probably somewhere in Bumfuck, Bumfuckistan and has to try to find his way back. I can see it now>"A bloody draggon? Sod that, mate. Why don't we go back to that village a little way back. They didn't have a shower but at least I could actually eat their bread. I didn't have to worry about these midgets trying to steel me things, and there wasn't some homeless man, bugger-en-all-hell talking about 'hocus pocus' an' magic fairy dust
>>33789622He's enlightened by his intelligence score
>>33789591Ye Buffoon Lost In Tyme
>>33789750Racist! Buffoon is a 15th century term for a black pirate.
>>33788469Fun fact about DnD 4e, one of the races in the PHB3 is actually 40 years old. As in the race itself didn't exist until 40 years ago.
>>33786629I'm getting some edge from this post, especially since humans can be killed by "the right weapons" as well, but that doesn't invalidate that there are people in positions of power that others pay respect to, seek the advice of, and obtain protection in exchange for service from. Gods would be an even greater extension of that. It seems like your character just really, really, really holds a grudge against religious people in general, or he's mad that his mom and dad made him skip out on the town market every Sunday to go to sermons.
>>33789976Dragonborn I'm guessing?
>>33789976It's humans. I knew it all along, you fuckers just showed up out of nowhere one day while i was taking a nap.
>>33787302but then you accomplish a difficult goal and realize you don't need your magic to change the world around you, suddenly your magic flows through you once more.
>>33789976Wilden, right? The plant guys who showed up as nature's response to lovecraftian shit from the Far Realm getting all up in its grill.
>>33788710No. Atheism and non-theism are exactly the same thing. Non theism is the definition of atheism.If you ask someone "are you a theist?" And they give any answer except yes then they're an atheist.
>>33791074What is, agnosticism, Alex?theism is complete belief in a higher power, whereas atheism is the complete belief in there being no such power.Agnosticism is the belief that there is no way to prove or disprove it, and that it doesn't matter much either way.
>>33791115No, Agnosticism is a statement about knowledge, I.E. if you know or don't know that god exists. Atheism is a statement about belief, if you believe in god or not. So you can be an agnostic atheist (you don't know if god exists, but you don't believe that it does, the most common type of atheist), gnostic atheist (you know that god does not exist), agnostic theist (you don't know if god exists or not, but you believe that it does) or a gnostic theist (you know god exists).This is grossly simplified of course, but works for this thread.
>>33787568Paladins in 4e need not actually be Faithful or Pious, they are granted their powers through initiation rites and rituals by the Holy Order they belong to. Once invested with these powers, they can only be taken away from the paladin through another set of sacred rites and rituals. Furthermore, not every order adheres to the faith of a specific deity; some adhere to tenets and values which espouse the championship of a particular virtue, such as Valor, Sacrifice, Compassion, or Justice.
>>33789996Not sure if joking or confirmed for never even touched 4e.
>>33786033Ur-Priests and Athar
>>33785942So an Ur Priest then, ok.
>>33786280I read this in Pastor Richards' voice.
>>33789980No, he just refuses to worship anything he can kill. By his logic, that would require worship of a number of mortals as well. That and every god he's seen has been an evil creature. ESPECIALLY gods of nature or light.
>>33786033They can always pull the "cleric of a concept/virtue" card, but I wouldn't allow it because how the hell are you going to draw power from your unbelief in the god? ESPECIALLY when there's a spell that let's you talk directly with said gods.
I can finally use this.
>>33789188The difference is that once you have sufficient infrastructure in place, you can cheaply mass-produce incandescent lights. You don't have to understand shit, as long as someone else does. Casting a light spell is easier than building a lightbulb from scratch, but you don't have to build a lightbulb from scratch since you can get them for half a copper from the corner store and all houses everywhere are connected to the nation-wide electric grid. In most settings I've seen, people can't or won't do that with magic.And if they did, would there be any reason to call the force you have harnessed "magic"? Electricity, if you think about how it actually works, is magical as FUCK. An invisible force that holds all matter together, that can be made to flow by performing certain actions, such as moving a magnet near a coil of wire. It's only technology instead of wizardry because people collectively understand how it works. If the people in your fantasy setting could analyze and automate their magic to the point where magic lighting was so cheap only the rich burned candles, they would no longer see it as magical.
>>33793142>All the Athar want is to part the veil, discover the secret behind everything, and look on the face of the unknowable.These guys seem like the ones who bring Elder Gods into standard fantasy worlds.
>>33785942This is retarded. I disapprove.Athiest clerics don't work, and they make everyone involved seem really dumb.
>>33785942I've seen one where a non-magical Wizard hit someone with Dominate Person.> HE WAS WORKING FOR ME ALL THE TIME.
>>33787885Stop triggering me.
>>33789021"faith" isn't a binary state. It's not an on/off switch.
>>33785942So to go with every other fucking moron who has never read the rule books, I must ask the question.Wouldn't an athiest Cleric just be a really shitty Fighter?
>>33794503When you cast the spell... nothing happens.
Atheists in settings where gods are perceivably present only work if they're atheists in the sense that they believe that the gods are not actually gods, but simply overpowered dickholes with a superiority complex and a fanclub.
>>33795583that doesn't really disqualify something from being a god
>>33795610Tell that to the setting's atheists, see if they believe you.
>>33795571Or a fantastic Warlord.
A cleric who's an atheist sounds like something Terry would write.
>>33789091He knew telling Simon to believe in himself would mean nothing since Simon already had low self esteem so he wouldn't consider his own belief to be worth that much. That's why Kamina tells Simon to believe in him because Kamina is awesome and if he believes in something then it really is a big deal. Later on, after they had been through some adventures he tells Simon to "believe in the you who believes in you". What Kamina was doing was pretty much what religion at it's best does; he created an outside force that truly and absolutely believes in the little guy. If you think your shit then believing in yourself will do jack all. But if you believe in some stronger force that knows you have some hidden strength to do what needs to be done it kind of means something more, at least it delays the knee-jerk "I suck" thoughts long enough for you to get the job done.
>>33794563Karl is the hero we deserve.
>>33795809“But that was just it - hate was exactly the right word. Hate is a force of attraction. Hate is just love with its back turned.” >guy hates the notion of gods and clerics>fate makes him her champion and cleric>whenever some miracle happens he curses the notion of it being a miracle and fate>his rant works like a prayer
>>33792923I meant more of during character creation you have to choose a god to follow as a paladin while a cleric can choose to follow a domain instead. Any non Invoker doesn't HAVE to follow their faith but there may be consequences if they don't. Except Runepriests since their powers are more knowledge of the alphabet than channeling divine power.
>>33795809He actually did at one point, I believe. At the very least there were some humorous footnotes about atheists on the Disc having their windows blown out by thunder more often than most people.
>>33796402As an aside. If you are a divine character and you fuck up so royally that you bring actual lasting shame to your god they can come down and strip you of your powers but this an exception and almost never happens to people who betray their faith.
>meets his doppleganger>"How do I know which one is me?"
>>33785942>Karl PilkingtonWell at the very least your player gets that if you're gonna play an atheist in a setting where gods exist and interact with mortals on a daily basis, you might as well make him an ignorant moron.
>>33795809Actually, already did.http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/index.php/Dorfl
>>33786124>Technically you can be cleric of a cause. Someone actually could be a cleric of aggressive atheism. Though they'd need to destroy temples, artifacts, and worshipers of any deity.Can you be a cleric of Nihilism?
>>33798210Nihilism sounds to me more like an absence of a cause, but I'd let you do it. Sounds fun as long as one of the party members was cheery enough to provide a foil.
>>33798436>but I'd let you do it.there is not let you do it.gm fiat allow anything, that is not the question
>>33798486Then why bother asking in the first place? To see if the rules, which are infinitely bendable, allow it?Go nuts, I guess.
>>33798546I think the best approach is the following.Want to do it? Make it good. How? Funny, incredible, fascinating, something. Can't? Try harder. Try your damnedest. Still can't? Let it die.
>>33798210it's listed here as a philosophy that can support priests >>33786527but it ultimately comes down to what the specific setting or DM allows
>>33796402Paladins can be devoted too ideals like clerics.
>>33798903Nope. In the 4e PHB 1 it says "As fervent crusaders in their chosen cause, paladins must choose a deity". It then goes on to say your alignment must line up with your gods but the 4e alignments are so loose that it doesn't matter.
>>33798973And 4e Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, one of the core essentials books, says otherwise. Please stop assuming that the first published material for a work is the most correct.
>>33798973Huh. I guess my DM house ruled that silly restriction then.
>>33786033>not being a cleric of an ideaThe point of a cleric is faith = power. Faith doesn't necessarily have to be in a god.
>>33798436Depends on your perspective. From an Absurdist perspective, any absolute stance on the existence/nonexistence of meaning(and the nature thereof) is considered a leap of faith, including nihilism. I'd allow it.
>>33800036(same anon)Matter of fact, I'm playing a Chaotic Good nihilist cleric right now in a game of Pathfinder. I took the Evangelist archetype, so he gives horribly bleak speeches about the hopelessness of the party's plight and how all their efforts amount to nothing more than flailing in the void, and the party gets a morale bonus for it. It's great fun.But the cleric has a god(Azathoth), so I don't think that really counts.
I'm going to bet that Atheist Cleric is a top-notch tsundere.
>>33788707Thank you.I've been itching to run a paladin with that for some time now.
>>33800190>>Chaotic Good Cleric(Azathoth)>>Cleric have to be within one step of their deity>>Thus Azathoth is Chaotic NeutralWhile I would disagree, I respect your opinion
>>33786756I played a cleric in ravenloft that didn't believe in the undead. He went about blasting "lepers" with holy magic to cure them of their disease, proclaiming them "uplifted to heaven" when they blasted apart. I think a vampire tore him in half in the end...
>>33800929I figure you can't really be evil if you just don't know/care. Is a toddler evil? The same principle applies to Azathoth.Though I did look it up a couple months into the game and it turns out Azathoth's canonically CE in Pathfinder. *shrug* What the DM doesn't know won't hurt him.
That sounds pretty funny to be honest.
>>33801590>Azathoth's canonically CE in PathfinderThat's stupid and goes completely against Lovecraft. None of the Old Ones (except for Nyarlathotep) are evil. They're just uncaring, completely incrompehensible and so utterly beyond anything recembling human morals.
>>33801649Taking that to its logical conclusion I'd say that PF's alignment system would not apply to the Old Ones, as they are on a higher level of existence than it.
>>33801649If I were the one to rationalize it, I'd say they're mechanically evil-aligned because you'd have to be pretty fucking evil to want to summon or awaken them, and that their alignments as cleric power sources have pretty much nothing to do with their actual alignments as characters.But then, I'm not on the Paizo staff, and I personally prefer to think of them as CN, so you can pretty much take that with a grain of salt.
>>33801649it goes against lovecraft, but it fits D&D/PF. good/evil aren't just human morals there, they are fundamentals of the universe. when you port over characters into pathfinder, they play by pathfinder rules.
>>33786113get him a hat that sayswizzardred robe optional
>>33801732>>33801763Except Azathoth never does anything evil. He just sits at the center of the universe and drools. He's not the blind idiot god for nothing.
>>33801987Well, arguably, since the entire universe is his dream, Azathoth does everything, good and evil. But it should still balance out to neutral, unless you're in a really saccharine world or a really grimdark one. Either way, waking him up kills everyone, which most people(though admittedly not all) would think of as evil.
>>33802104Seeing as the universe is his dream, wouldn't he be Good? Seeing as, as the universe is his dream the ingrained definition of 'good' would be 'good according to Azathoth'?
>>33785942>plays the character like the D&D equivalent of Karl Pilkington10/10 would game with eternally
>>33802104I read through every single one of Lovecraft's stories recently and I don't remember any actual references to Azathoth dreaming up the world. He sleeps and dreams at the center of the universe, yes, and he is the direct ancestor of many of the Old Ones, yes, but nowhere was there ever mentioned that he is the source of reality.
>>33802184>implying Azathoth has a concept of "good"
>>33802324Eh. I may have misremembered that detail, then.
>>33802331If the universe is his dream, and good exists in the universe, then yes, he does have a concept of good.
>>33802389If so then many other do as well because it is something I hear often but that I didn't actually find anywhere in Lovecraft's writing. It might come from Derleth or something, but that man so obviously missed the point of everything Lovecraft wrote that I don't see why he's considered part of the mythos at all.
>>33802400For Azathoth, good/evil has the same sense as green/blue.
>>33802571Thanks, I was trying to articulate that.
>>33802571Of course.This does not, however, mean that we cannot be a colour.
>>33802653what does this even mean
>>33802687Your skin has colour, your eyes have colour, your hair has colour.
>>33802715Azathoth doesn't. He's beyond color. Beyond definition.
>>33802798Are you seriously fixating on the metaphor?
>>33802798True, but the statement I was working off claimed that morality was to him as colour was to us.If we can have colour as part of us then it stands to reason Azathoth could have morality as a part of him, just as appearance rather than personality.Besides, in PF Azathoth is CE, and we started off talking about PF, so...
>>33802864It's not that hard to understand. Azathoth has no color or defined shape for he is simply the sprawling chaos at the center of the universe. Yet he is, supposedly, the source of both color and shape - just as he lacks morals and is yet, supposedly, the source of that as well.Of course, in Lovecraft's writing, Azathoth was not the source of morals, because Lovecraft did not believe in them as he was a nihilist. The entire point of his works was that humanity was ultimately insignificant in reality and that the knowledge of that will eventually drive us all insane as we struggle to find a meaning that isn't there.Azathoth wasn't an actual god according to Lovecraft - just a very powerful alien entity which humanity had come to refer to as a god in a feeble attempt to categorize the incomprehensible.
>>33794490Reman best god emperor
>>33802899>If we can have colour as part of us then it stands to reason Azathoth could have morality as a part of him, just as appearance rather than personality.This, my friend, is raw sophistry. As theother anon said, you're fixating on the metaphor.
>>33795890Except that's bullshit. Rewatch the part before Kamina dies where both he tells Yoko the story about the time he and Simon almost died.
>>33803399OK, let's look past the metaphor then:Azathoth is the creator and inventor of morality, which exists as one of Azathoth's thoughts.Gee, yeah. Azathoth totally has nothing to do with morals.
What I never got is how the hell you could be an atheist in one of these worlds with miracles and magic. I mean, in real life, it's probably one of the more rational choices (Though I'd say agnosticism and refusing to get caught up with retards regardless of what they do or do not believe is best) unless you have some sort of personal conversion experience. But in shit like D&D you can worship a god and literally get magic powers and shit. What I would think would be more common as an opposing force is not someone saying "God doesn't exist" but that "God is lying", basically the idea that the thing the priests and clerics and paladins are worshiping and fighting for isn't what it says it is. It's giving them power, yes, and it has divine power, but perhaps it isn't the benevolent being it says it is.
>>33804081Well, it's more like Azathoth imagines us, and we believe in morality. But Azathoth also imagines all kinds of other impossibly alien creatures, with beliefs of their own that are just as ridiculous to Azathoth as ours. Azathoth is the ultimate cause of belief in morality, but Azathoth is also the ultimate cause of all kinds of mutually exclusive worldviews that have nothing to do with the concept. Humans, in their delusional and unwarranted self-importance, believe that morality has any significance to Azathoth, but the truth is that it has no more significance than the notion that the moon is made of cheese, or that meat turns into maggots.
>>33804523We were referring to how Azathoth would logically fit into PF though, where morality is an objective force.
>>33804616And it is in PF. But the dichotomy of good/evil is only as significant to Azathoth as the dichotomy of hot/cold, or the dichotomy of life/undeath, or the dichotomy of magic/antimagic. Just because mortals form an emotional attachment to ends of some of these dichotomies, doesn't mean Azathoth does. Would you claim that Azathoth prefers hot over cold weather?
>>33804992No, I would however claim that azathoth acknowledges 'hot' as being hot, and 'cold' as being cold, as it is the being that defines them.
>>33804081>>33804523I thought Azathoth was Nuclear power.
>>33805170he is "nuclear" in the sense of being central to the universe, not in the sense of being related to nuclear power.
>>33805057Azathoth doesn't acknowledge anything, Azathoth is too damn incoherent.
>>33804523>Well, it's more like Azathoth imagines us, and we believe in morality.But Azathoth is also the one who imagines morality.>with beliefs of their own that are just as ridiculous to Azathoth as ours. Azathoth is the ultimate cause of belief in morality, but Azathoth is also the ultimate cause of all kinds of mutually exclusive worldviews that have nothing to do with the concept.But just because Azathoth doesn't believe morality has any signficance, doesn't mean it doesn't. If the guy who imagined GPS thought it was a stupid idea, that'll never be useful or important, that doesn't mean GPS isn't a smart, useful, important idea.It just means that maybe an idiot god is wrong about a lot of shit.
>>33786235I fucking want this.
Man, all the Cthulu Mythos stuff just pisses me off eventually with how stupid and up-its-own-asshole it gets sometimes, Azathoth in particular.So the guy is the end all and be all of the Elder Gods, or whatever, and all of creation is his dream, or it's him, or its all of them at the same time, it doesn't seem to make much sense anyways.But they always go on about the pipers. If all of creation and everything and here isn't even void without Azathoth, what the fuck are the piper supposed to be?
>>33786756>He maintained he would worship any god that could prove their existence, and ended up converting after some cultists have him Vecna's street address.
>>33805693Honestly, it's the fans more than the creator.Lovecraft had no problem with Conan kicking Cthulhu's ass because man in his natural state is not concerned with all this nihilistic bullshit.
>>33787541My DM's current setting has us in a world where all the gods and devils and such buggered off leaving the world half-baked. As a result we have incredibly fucked-up climate and general meteorological weirdness. The closest thing we have to magic is a rare metal that's scattered around the world that's apparently left over from the great exodus of the gods.