>>7298957

I feel like I read a sci fi book about a planet of three gendered humans once. There was a third intermediate group called the Sa or something. Does anyone else remember this book?

You need a biologist here, though, man.

> Secondly, for a different race, I'm toying with the idea of the race having three sexes instead of the standard two (with all three taking part in reproduction). However, I'm unsure of how the logistics of that would work or if it's even really feasible.

A fairly simple way would be to make male/female/surrogate reproduction; Males and Females do the social heavy lifting, contribute gametes, and the "3rd wheel" incubates the children and raises them.

>>7299022

So, genetically, there would be XX, XY, and YY?

For increasing genetic diversity, the recommended methods are sexual reproduction, unstable mutation, transduction, and conjugation.

So, for your purposes, either they are extremely cancer-prone, surrounded by a cloud of mutualistic virii, or they try to touch everyone and everything.

>>7299022
The mommy and the daddy make the babies, and then the mommy lays the eggs in the unsexed individual, where they hatch into grubs and eat and eat until they are big enough to grow their first puppa!

So that's where babies come from.

>>7299240
Reminds me of a short story about a little girl of some bee-like species (in appearance from what i recall). The species reproduced by laying eggs inside the male. If he was too weak when the giant carnivorous larva came out... tough luck. Gotta get a new daddy. The girl gets to see her new brother/sister eat his daddy and gets a nice trauma.

If you want three "sexes" you could have a caste based society with the breeders as the "nobles" and the drones as workers and a place to lay the eggs so the larvae have something to eat.

Cue uprising of the proletariat.

>>7299187

How well would transduction and conjugation work for something roughly the same size as a human, though? I may be mistaken, but it seems like the sharp increase in size from bacteria to humanoid would complicate the processes immensely.

Why not a combination of meiosis and mitosis. Two, or more, beings converge, creating a biological lump, which then uses the combined genetic material to split off into several of different genetic variations.

>>7299326
Statioooooooooooooooooon

>>7299326

This....just no.

Sex isn't only determined by genetics. There's other, nongenetic ways to determine sex, such as gender determination by temperature during incubation. You have to figure out a system first, because there's likely to be a number of quirks involved.

>>7299313

For transduction, you would be dependent upon mutualist virii. The problem is how much control can be exerted over those virii that seek out and assimilate new genomes. Other than that, it wouldn't be too much different from mutation, just with a bit more restrain upon it. The real problem here is, fluff-wise, this strategy calls for intelligent critters with clouds of virii flying about them all the time, picking and choosing what DNA is to be assimilated by the host. They would almost always be sick, too.

Conjugation isn't much of a problem on a macro-scale. It's just that big organisms tend to favor stability over flexibility, but fuck it, this is fantasy, right? So, the important thing is that physical contact of a living cell to viable genetic material is needed. from there, the cells behind conjugate, and the cells behind that conjugate, and so on. The problem is the homeobox gene complex would have to be squirrely and self-correcting, otherwise you'd get weird freaky shit. So, all it would take is a handshake if the conjugator was strong about it, or sharing a kiss or a blood-brothers type ritual if not.

>>7299413

So, it's possible for everyone to be XX but still develop differently into male/female/whatever?

>>7299476

Alligators and crocodiles do this.

>>7299475

Conjugation seems like it'd be the best bet.

Would they be restricted in where they'd be able to obtain genetic information from? And would the obtained genetic information affect the living organism or only the organism's offspring?

Fun fertilization method: macroorganism injects virus carrying its dna into "host". Virus infects over your favorite body part, then mutates the infected cells to become a new embryo, acquiring generic information from the host in the process. The embryo grows over, fed by the host, until it bursts away, killing the host.

>>7299544

The only limitation is if they can get part of the conjugatee's DNA or if they have to take the whole damn thing, and how willing other people are to stand for this kind of stuff.

In the case of the former, selection criteria and methodology is up to you. Generally, this is the best they could hope for, and makes most practical the idea of it being for them, and not just their children. Where does their first liver come from? They grow it once they find it. It's really the RTS approach to making a viable critter.

In the case of the latter, they are walking piles of other people. They might even just pass that DNA into sex organs that recombine them into an egg that may or may not be viable. If not viable, they don't have kids until it is.

Or, they might just shift into duplicates of that person (fingerprints would be different, but however you want doppelgangers to work is up to you).

Of course, taking DNA from someone with terminal cancer would give it to you. So take of that what you will.

>>7299621

For a less lethal version, couldn't the virus just infect the host's reproductive organ's causing any children the victim bears to be that of the species that gave them the virus?

>>7299658
Sure, I guess. It has less of a 'aliens' feel to it, and more of a 'cursed womb'.

>>7299670

There is a parasite that does that to a species of crab as it is, except it also takes over their nervous system and makes them protect it's babies.

>>7299544

In conjugation, the SOURCE of the genetic code handles all the complex processes, if I remember correctly. As long as another organism is capable of 'handshaking', and is wont to do so, it should be able to recieve the material. Whether it can USE it, is another thing, but it's possible. I mean, for all the recipient knows, the new genes might KILL it(there's nucleases that check and degrade certain lethal codes, I'm sure). This really isn't reproduction as much as it is the transfer of genetic material from one individual to another.

And yes, depending on gene regulation, these changes may not be apparent in the organism, but may turn up in its children(such as a 'super puberty' gene that ramps up hormone production during puberty to create super-tall and powerful organisms), or it may be apparent immediately(lactose tolerance)

>>7299657

They don't HAVE to take the whole damn thing. Not if it was in its own, independent mobile element like some sort of plasmid.

Starfish and polyps, dude. Just release the extra mass and it reforms. Not every species needs to recombine genes, specially if they can suffer minor mutations when reforming.

If you want to combine genes, fine. One member gifts another with a piece of itself, the latter makes it grow into a fully functional independent egg, and puts it in safety. The egg grows feeding on the environment or whatever the host brings to it until it hatches, with a small but functional new being.

Here's a possibility:

The species is capable of absorbing cells/DNA from other organisms via special receptors in the skin. This DNA is migrated to the ovaries where it is pruned and fit in with one or more of the creature's eggs. It can give birth at any time (or maybe it requires some sort of psychological/biological trigger), and the child will be a mixture of the parent's DNA and the spliced in DNA.

>>7299782

cnidarians don't have a brain or ganglia. They're so incredibly, retardedly simple that they're capable of this. Seeing as how the OP was going on about races, I don't think this could result in anything other than dumb wildlife.

>>7299788

I doubt it would be on just ANY skin, since skin is dead. Perhaps it's a specific part. Also, how is the DNA 'pruned' and properly inserted? It seems like this would almost always end up in a dead offspring.

>>7299809
>(the species originally reproduced sexual until a virus came which fucked with the specie's DNA)

There is a virus that changed how something reproduces, in what seems to be a gene recombining, totally symbiotic way.

I :V at thee.

you rang?

>>7299839
>Also, how is the DNA 'pruned' and properly inserted?

Wouldn't some sort of pruning mechanism be necessary for any form of conjunction / transduction, in order to prevent the organism from suffering a fatal error?

For a species that reproduces via parthenogensis its hard to create genetic diversity if that is the sole way of doing things.
I guess in theory as bad as it sounds you could rip off the movie evolution and have that they live incredibly short lives and are about as stable as a glass house in san fran. That or set up so that the parent is constantly mutating. It's not a real world way of doing things but, Figure that with each new stimulus it begins to adapt. When it is exposed to one long enough it buds off a nymph of itself that is used to that enviorment.

If it leaves there it will suffer that mutation cycle again till it settles down.

>>7299954
yep actually its involved every time a cell divides. If its doing something to reproduce it would be a big stretch though given we can't tell what genes are good and what are bad outside of what's been established. It's possible to insert new genes but you need to get them in and around the proteins that run up and down a strand making sure all the ducks are in a row so to speak.

>>7300064

What about using it to keep DNA from species that are too dissimilar out? So only DNA from the same species (or similar enough to fool the pruning mechanism) would be used for reproduction.

>>7300087
it seems to me like that would make for very little variation

>>7300104
unless you have the "similar enough" set to chimps = humans, or something

>>7300104

It'd allow for at least the same amount of variation as sexual reproduction. As it'd just be sex via handshake.

> Secondly, for a different race, I'm toying with the idea of the race having three sexes instead of the standard two (with all three taking part in reproduction). However, I'm unsure of how the logistics of that would work or if it's even really feasible.

Male and female mate, then shortly after the female seeks a suitable mate from the third sex and practically gives the still tiny fetus to "her" by having a different kind of intercourse, where it receives a third set of genes. "He" just adds his genes without receiving the child from her.

>>7300142
(ripping a bit from Darwin's radio)

The third sex never leaves the 'female' Instead its the first part of the sexual reproduction. when this first fetus reaches an certain point in it's development it mutates into little more than new ovary. this ovary releases a new fertilized egg that is a modified version of it complete with new traits that were not there previously.

I am fascinated by the appearance that not a one of you have suggested that perhaps the three sex race has three gametes.

There is no good reason this can't work, just a lot of reasons that it is unlikely to confer a competitive advantage in a terrestrial situation.

Lets discuss further: Lets say that rather than having diploid cells, this organism actually works on the principle of having trisomy of pretty much everything. This also suggests that it will have a much higher rate of phenotypic characteristics determined by codependent alleles. It also means that this races statistical likelyhood of carrying a particular recessive allele through generations without expressing it is much larger.

Now from a TL;DR point of view, what you are going to see is:

Sex will be a kind of pass the parcel game, possibly taking place over the course of a week (IE Male bangs female, chemical changes as a result of pregnancy cause female to suddenly sexually prefer the third sex, who she then transfers the half-fertilised embryo to, which then combines with a third gamete to form a proper embryo).

This race will have a higher number of different feature sets than is seen in terrestrial organisms. We already have some codominance in hair colour, but they might well have 20 or more different hair colours as well as other things like skin colour, features etc.

They will produce the occasional genetic throwback that dates up to thousands of years into the past.

Now considering all these characteristics, in order for them to have competitive advantage, they very likely live on a world with extremely volatile conditions, IE a place with a tropical climate cannot reasonably be expected to stay tropical for a decade straight. Oh hey we are in ice now oh wait now theres lava everywhere.

That is my contribution.

>>7300190
That actually works pretty well I think most of us are used to diploid reproduction and it didn't cross our minds. It would work though the DNA RNA base would ten ways to screwballed.

>>7300190

Does it necessarily have to offer an advantage?

Wouldn't it be possible that it arose via some rather odd set of mutations and, while not necessarily offering an advantage, hasn't proven detrimental enough to be selected against?

>>7298957
One male, one Female and one to carry the young.

>>7300190
>>7300244

The species evolved very early in the history of the world when things were more turbulent. Since then, things have calmed down significantly, but the species has retained the trisomy.

>>7300190
> I am fascinated by the appearance that not a one of you have suggested that perhaps the three sex race has three gametes.
I did in >>7300142
But typo, I meant "OR 'He' just adds his genes without receiving the child from her.", calling the third sex "he" or "she" depending on whether he/she receives the child during the act or lets the mother keep it, two possible ways to have that race do it.

>>7300371
It was posted while I was writing that reply.

Anyway, I had this huge post planned out, but I got a field too long rejection and I CBF writing it all again, but basically the conclusions were this: Some social traits they have likely picked up as a result of their origins are:
-Eating their dead
-Strong altruism, even taking care of the weak runts that seem ill-suited to survival.

Another thing was this: Perhaps the planets ecosystem was split between triploid organisms that were able to stay in an area throughout the turbulences, and the diploid organisms that had to migrate constantly. This also means that the Triploids are exposed to a constantly changing rotation of predators, something that would be excellent for giving a selective advantage to long life and long memory, traits that encourage the development of civilisation.

The traits I mentioned above came from thinking about the triploids survival. Whenever the turbulence comes, a significant portion of the population die out from being ill-suited to the new conditions. Eating their dead ensures that the biomass their species loses does not go towards their predators, but rather remains within the species. Taking care of even the sickest of calves is selected for because when the next turbulence comes, there is a chance that the individuals previously poorly suited to their environment are now the ones that will thrive, and are now possibly the only way a mother has of ensuring its genes continue into the next generation.

Now that that gamete matter seems to be sorted out, I wonder what the socio-biological implication of the three genders would be? I mean, in terms of sexual dimorphism and such.

Humans have two gender, with relatively little difference between the two. In order for the three gendered approach to be advantageous there would have to be some reason or role for each of the two genders existing.

What comes to my mind is the following:

Humans basically have a two-tiered gender system. Males are slightly stronger and more aggressive, and usually exit and function on the outer perimeters of their social structures. (hunting, guarding etc.) Females are better at operating in complex social situations, raising children and functioning in the "home base" or the core of the social group.

A three-tier system might extend that structure.

Gender number one, call it the "Hyperfeminine", is the third gender which incubates and brings the infants to term, and raises them when they are very young. Their set of cultural/biological skills and abilities are similar to human females only exaggerated. They function almost entirely within the home-base, and are on average poorly suited for the outside world.

...

(this thread went far while I was writing but I'm posting anyway)
...
The second gender, call it the "Androgyn" has cultural and biological traits similar to human men, only to a lesser degree. They operate between the core "home-base" and the "wilderness". They farm and gather, build and occasionally hunt.

The third gender is the "hypermasculine". They are almost solitary or nomadic creatures who live in the periphery of the "home range", hunting, scouting and protecting the territory from invasion. They are physically and mentally well suited for this, well beyond that of a human male.

The Hypermasculine inseminates the Androgyn, and then Androgyn then passes the two gametes to the Hyperfeminine. The Hyperfeminines are only sexually attracted to the Androgynes, as are the hypermasculines, and the Androgynes are attracted to both.

How these three operate in a modern society is hard to say and up to OP. Maybe the versatile Androgyns are the "dominant gender", or maybe it's the Hyperfeminines, since they control reproduction. It may even be the hypermasculines, though that seems unlikely as they don't really hold a lot of cards in the end.

The advantages to this include the ability for, for example, the offspring to inherit genetic resistances to pathogens from the far traveling hypermasculines who are exposed to a wide variety of conditions and environments. As well as other advantages that bio-anons can probably come up with.

>>7300491
>>7300190

Potential race based on this:

Native to a continent/island that has been isolated from the rest of the world for some time leading to a marked difference in genetic diversity. The landmass has a large amount of volcanic activity, leading to large portions of life there being wiped out. The odd mix of mountains and valleys provides for unusual weather patterns with patches of tropical rainforest, desert, steppes, savanna, and temperate forests intermixed. The race populates every biome of the island.

The race has a high degree of sexual trimorphism. Females are very large and displaying a more bestial appearance, they occupy the role of hunter / warrior. Males are roughly more humanoid, occupying the role of gatherer as well as social roles. The third sex is slightly smaller than the males, but is more intelligent and dexterous than the other two sexes. They act as the race's thinkers as well as giving birth to the young.

Their civilization while altruistic towards their own clans, is fractured across tribal/ecological boundaries making conflict common.

Kind of unrelated, but all the talk about conjugation in asexually reproducing species kind of got me thinking about vampires for some reason.

Maybe instead of just instantly absorbing other people in a handshake, the species requires a blood transfusion. This can be voluntary or. . . not. The blood is held at first in some sort of biological "airlock" organ, where it broken down and then mixed with the host creature's DNA to test its viability as a future mate.

If it fails the test (90% chance) then the blood is expelled and the creature continues looking for another mate. If it succeeds, the captured blood is harvested for its DNA and implanted into an unfertilized egg, creating a zygote.

I just like the idea of these creatures roaming the earth, violently extracting blood from strangers with the same urgency as an animal in heat.

fap fap fap

>>7300635
>>7300621
Their cultural altruism in this version may be a result of neither the Hypermasculines or the hyperfeminines knowing who their genetic offspring are or who the genetic "father" of that offspring is. It also makes very convoluted netorks of 2/3 and 1/3-sibling possible. This means that in even a large community "everyone is related to everyone" much more than with humans. There being a less clear distiction between "us" and "them", genetically, would cause all of the members of the community to treat each other like family. It would be similar to the females of a chimpanzee troop mating with most of the males, so that nobody knows who the father of any given infant is, thus preventing infanticide by rival males.

This would of course make inter-community organization difficult as rival "tribes" would knoe each other chiefly trough the violent and territorial hypermasculines which inhabit their mutual borders. However, once androgyn-to-androgyn level contact would have been made, the two communities would quickly become one, as now the hypermasculines can only assume their genetic material may well have been transplanted into the other tribe as well.

Their altruism, may also be due to the fact that they have a separate third gender dedicated entirely to being hostile and paranoid, therefore removing the need for that impulse in 2/3 of the race.

>>7300808

Question, though. Given the same numbers in a community, would the triploids be more or less likely to suffer inbreeding problems than diploids?

>>7300795

... that does sound hot.

I'm sort of inclined to go with the gender trimorphism outlined in the post above the more recent, although certainly you have a point that the sex in charge of bringing the children to term is likely to be a thinker in its role.

The investment in the offspring constantly increases down the chain of reproduction, so the most male like gender would likely be the hunters/away team. The central gender have a significant investment of time necessary for reproduction but they still don't bring the child to term. They are likely to be the farmers, the merchants, etc. because of their role in mediating between the two genders, and not being rendered less mobile by sex. The final gender are leaders by virtue of having the size advantage on the gender that breeds with them, and having a monopoly on reproduction. They occupy their time with direction of the other genders as well as crafts.

I'd have it as such: The male gender are bestial hunters, that operate as a group on the perifery of a clans territory. They make periodic trips back to the center of the territory to induct new males into their pack, breed, and trade meat and reports on the clan territory for crafted goods and farm products. In matters of interclan diplomacy they also serve as the escorts and guides for the other two genders. Though the operate largely independently, they do intercept threats that are on a course towards the static settlements of the other two genders.

The central gender is phenotypically smallest, and is proportioned most similarly to the male gender, though slightly more dextrous. They breed with both genders in sequence.

The female-most gender are large as males, but have hyperfeminine proportions.

>>7300827
Less I suppose, since they have three sets of chromosomes, soy they have three chances of getting a well functioning dominant version of a gene, instead of just two.

One of the major problems in inbreeding is that the dysfunctional recessive genes start to pile up when you just mate in a small group where EVERYONE has that recessive genetic flaw, thus making it much more likely that both of your duplicates are dysfunctional.

>>7300827
Much less likely. Triploids should be able to marry their cousins for consecutive generations before any of the mutated regressive genes show through.

>>7300873
*recessive

>>7300841

How would the hypermasculine runts fair? Given the high degree of altruism due to greater familial bonds, they wouldn't be abandoned, but at the same time may not necessarily be able to perform adequately in their given gender role.

>>7300841
that's exactly what I was going at. I just wonder how those three gender would interact in a more developped civilization (assuming that they have one).

It seems to me like the middle or androgyne gender has perhaps the greatest chances of being dominant, since they have most control over reproduction, have the necessary skill set to engage in those activities which are most required by a forager-to-agriculturalist transition. Not really sure about that though.

OP probably has a good picture of how he wants them to be in their civilized in-game setting anyway.(?)

Ok, so we have hypermasculine hunters / warriors, androgynous social workers / farmers, and hyperfeminine philosophers / priests.

Any given community is lead chiefly by the hyperfeminine, with the androgynous acting as bureaucrats / goffers. The hypermasculine have a much smaller role and are pretty much stuck following orders.

>>7300928
>OP probably has a good picture of how he wants them to be in their civilized in-game setting anyway.(?)

Actually, the triple sexed race has been fleshed out the least, and I don't have a lot in mind for them at the moment. I have them to go to war against the humans with genocidal intent, killing off most of them and forcing the remainder to leave the continent, but that's about it.

Also, as a note, I'm loving the discussion going on in this thread.

>>7300905
I imagine that since the hypermasculines function as their own tribe within a tribe, any kind of runt equivalents would be taught to hunt, even though they'd be terrible at it. This way when the next turbulence comes and the hypermasculines are short of numbers, they suddenly have someone who knows, in principle at least, how to hunt, and is now suited to the environmental conditions, allowing them to lead the remnants.

There might even be some kind of specific social positions for such individuals, like scribe or something, the man in charge of observing and recording the traits of all the prey and predators that the tribe encounters between each pair of turbulences, so that 3 to 5 generations into the future they have a record of what to expect when the climate cycles back to its original position.

It would be their own sort of hidden culture. Whenever the turbulence comes, the scribe leads the whole tribe back to the rock of history, where the great chart is consulted to determine what animals they should expect in the megaseason to come. They then go back to the settlement and tell everyone exactly what tools they need to be made for the coming age if they are to hunt. One season they could be hunting deer, needing fast thrown spears and bolasses, but if the rock of history says mammoths are next, bitches better start making some boulder traps and grappling hooks.

Something like that.

>>7301005
It comes to my mind at this juncture that IF the development of civilization renders the hypermasculines "obsolete", in the same way that it rendered the hunter/warrior of human prehistory obsolete, then the hypermasculines may develop neoteny. (not a bio.fag, I'm a psych-major, but I think that's the word) It would mean that the hypermasculines may start, trough selection, in order to be more viable, begin to retain their adolescent form, looking more like the androgynes, into adulthood and sexual maturity.

This would of course kinda go against the whole point of having three sexually trimorphic genders in the first place, and may not be a great idea.

>>7301054

Hypermasculine runts as the learned subscaste. They act as field medics, keepers of lore, and possibly military strategists. Maybe they could act as representatives of the hunter caste in the government.

>>7301104

They could simply be upgraded from hunters to soldiers and police, or put their strength to work in construction.

>>7301104
That could really be their major social conflict, when the role of an entire gender is suddenly obsolete. I guess in the modern day they would be like backpackers, constantly travelling and doing oddjobs here and there, but as migratory swarms as it were. They might also be good mineral prospectors. Even then though thats not really enough to support a third of the population.

The last fallback would be that, like human males, only more so, their spacial perception is likely to be much higher; even if their aggression is higher also this still leaves them with a place in a modern society. Pilots, engineers, these are jobs that, even if the other genders could probably compete with them due to their aggression getting in the way of the job less, the males would be reasonably apt at.

And lets not forget that the males have a degree of hereditary ability to barter and trade, even if it is poor compared to that of the middlesex.

>>7301119
...or they may adopt a life more akin to the androgynes, which may not be a horrible reproductive strategy since they would give them access to many more adrogynes to breed with, than the average hypermasculine, if they will have him that is.

That actually kinda circles back to my whole neoteny post, since this kind of reproductive transition could cause neotenic tendencies in the males, if the old wilderness roving males ever became less important.

...an idea which, like I said, may not be a good one.

In general they would probably find a role for themselves in similar ways that very feminine men find a role for themselves in human society, many of which have already been suggested by you guys.

Mate selection / marriage in the triple sexed race:

Androgynous and hyperfeminine individuals undergo marriage and remain more or less faithful to each other for the remainder of their lives. However, on the flip side, sexual activity between androgynous and hypermasculine members is extremely promiscuous, to the point where it's hard to say which hypermasculine is the "father". Though, the exact circumstances surrounding this promiscuous sexual activity is up in the air.

>>7301273
I wonder of it would make more sense if it was the androgyns and the hyperfeminines who marry. They are after all both sedentary, and it would be hard to imagine the Andros and HyFems not forming somekind of semi permanent relationships, akin to marrieage. The HyFem carries the androgyns offspring and the Androgyn farms and provides shelter for the HyFem.

That's not to say that the HyMascs and the Andros wouldn't also have some individual loyalty to each other, but the I would imagine the distance and the changing circumstances of the HyMasc lifestyle would render those kind of tentative.

It just seems more likely that the Andros mate with the most suitable HyMasc available and then with the most viable HyFem they have been able to attract for themselves.

Maybe the roving HyMasc troops even only have one breeding leader...

...just brain storming. Some of these ideas may not be great.

>>7301273
>>7301363
wait I had my head up my ass there
you were saying the same thing as I was

My thoughts for sexual selection was the idea that the androgynes employ some selection for mates with hypermasculines, either by employing sex with them as a trade good (Therefore only the hypermales who are successful enough to be able to offer a deal very heavily in favour of the androgynes can mate) or perhaps by some other matter such as feats of strength, chalked kills etc.

HOWEVER since contact is only periodic, and androgynes don't really recognise hypermasculine individuals very well (Having not grown up with them their facial recognition for them will be poor), this mating is effectively promiscuous as the chances of two consecutive offspring of an androgyn having the same hypermale parent are very low. This uncertainty as to parenthood also helps with integration of new hypermales into their "pack".

I can't think of a method of selection in the next stage that seems right though. The reproduction rate must be fairly high, so the breeders can't be too discerning about when and with whom they mate, yet at the same time the breeders having sex with any androgyn who happens to be interested doesn't seem right for their role as leaders.

>>7301363

Well, the idea behind the massive hypermasculine / androgyns orgy is to maximize genetic diversity. Otherwise, it's entirely possible that only a handful of hypermasculine individuals would mate with the androgyns cutting the rest out.

>>7301405
Yeah.
This is why I still see the androgynes as the most likely leaders of the community, even if the HyFems occupy philosophical and priestly functions. The andro's role as sexual selectors in both the HyMasc-Andro mating AND the Andro-HyFem mating, gives them a lot of power. It makes no sense for the HyFems to be selectors, since they have no control over the identity of the HyMasc they are also effectively mating with. Sure the HyFems can be a little picky (the most Andro who is most adept at farming or spear-making would have access to the grewtest number, and there fore the highest quality, of HyMascs), but ultimately they have to trust the sexual selection of the Andro.

Nature you scary

Maybe we could take a page from /tg/'s interpretation of mithra and make the hypermasculine individuals release a pheromone that essentially makes androgynous individuals incapable of saying "no". Any competition for sex with an androgynous would be between the hypermasculines themselves, though it wouldn't stop some of the less fit hypermasculines from sneaking out at night to get some androgynous tail while they don't have to worry about the other guys.

>>7301476

>>7301468

I think that could depend on how the social roles are perceived. Because of the size difference, we might see Androgyn/HypFem relations be more one sided on the part of the HypFem.

>>7301468
>>7301479
We have a conundrum her. Either the HyMascs select the andros, and then the Andros select the HyFems, or Andros do all the selecting.

Is till think "Andos select for all" makes the most sense.

How about OP? How does OP need their society to be?

Strong HyMascs, sitting on their ass or fighting wars, maintaining wives or harems of Andros, who them maintain wives or harems of HyFems.
-OR-
Society being led by the versatile Andros, who maintain established relationships with HyFems, and the aggressive HyMascs being the "muscle" of the Andros.

>>7301519
>size difference

I'm not entirely clear on what kind of sexual trimorphism were looking at, or indeed that the race looks like in general.(?)

Do we already have something about that locked in. Not knowing any better, I've just assumed that the HyMascs are narly 7 foot tall motherfuckers, the Andros are kinda reverse traps and the HyFems are chick with dat ass and enormous tetaas. I realize that's not necessarily the case, which is why I'm asking: what DOES this race look like?

I think that andros should be picking the hypmales at least, regardless of the matter with hypfemales.

The andros are in a far better position to judge the relative success of the males, and pheromone shenanigans if any would be the breeders, since they are the final stage of conception, and will only be producing offspring with andros who have already had sex with a hypmale.

>>7301557

This race doesn't need to be anything in particular, as they've haven't been fleshed out to the degree that the other races have been (while I still need to work on specifics, the unisex, human, and dwarven races are more or less set).

Though, I don't think the choice for how mate selection works is necessarily so clearly divided. Mate selection could be more mutual with the HypFems and HypMascs competing for the best Androgyns who are also competing against other Androgyns for the HypFem/HypMasc of their choice. Alternatively, the HypFems could use their superior intellect and size difference over the Androgyns to run the entire reproduction gambit, and an Androgyn mating with a HypMasc who hasn't been approved by the HypFem could be a major social taboo.

>>7301621

I've envisioned the HypMascs similarly to you. Large muscled creatures resembling a cross between bears and gorillas.

As for the other two, I'm not so sure, aside from the Androgyns being smaller than the HypFems.

With regards to trimorphism:
The males are comparably large, as befits their role, they have to actually have the physique to beat shit to death with their bare hands.

The andros don't have any good reason to be particularly big, they don't carry children to term, and their menial tasks don't have size as a prerequisite per se, even though it may help a bit.

The hypfemales however have to carry children to term, in particular, hypmale children, who given that they grow up in hypmale society must be born in the same ballpark size range as an adult male, so they are probably once again male sized, but rather than that size being made up of RIP AND TEAR HUGE GUTS its made up of DEM HIPS and possibly DEM TITTIES depending on the type of creature this is.

>>7301660
>I don't think the choice for how mate selection works is necessarily so clearly divided.
Well obviously there would be a lot of give and take. Sure the HyMascs would want to mate with the richest and healthies Andros too, and the HyFems would be more attracted to those Andros as well.
>mating with a HypMasc who hasn't been approved by the HypFem could be a major social taboo
Sound cool too. If the HyFems are not just breeding cows, then surely they would wield some influence too. That specific kind of regulation, however, would be hard to exercise since the Andros and HyMascs interact outside of the realm of the HyFems. It really depend on how great of a role the superior intellect of the HyFems plays. No Andro wants to face a sexual embargo from all the HyFems of the community because hir is being suspected of mating with "off-limits" HyMascs, but again that is more like the power women wiled over their husbands on Patriarchal societies, not the other way around. Parochial power seems more likely to reside with the Andros, if it resides anywhere.

>>7301775
>Sound cool too. If the HyFems are not just breeding cows, then surely they would wield some influence too.

Well, as it stands, the HypFems are the thinkers. The philosophers, inventors, and priests, so they'd be capable of wielding a significant portion of power and authority. They're also large enough to use physical coercion against the Androgyns with relative impunity - domestic abuse would involve the Androgyns being beaten.

>>7301753
Sound ok. Not that it's absolutely necessary though. Primates with large amounts of sexual dimorphism, like gorillas, still bring male fetuses to term just as easily as female fetuses, so I suppose that it's not absolutely necessary for the HyFems to bee that much bigger than the Andros, if OP doesn't want to. HyMascs would probably have the longest growing period, and would probably reach sexual maturity the latest anyway.

>>7301862
Certainly the HyMascs will reach sexual maturity latest (Since they won't even have an opportunity to excercise it until they have ascended up the hierarchy to the point of being able to get a mate), but they need to reach maturity with respect to survival ability relatively quickly (Since their surroundings are a little less forgiving), and its in this respect that there is actually a difference between the genders, so you would start seeing trimorphism in children much earlier than terran species.

Considering that under natural conditions human childbirth death rates are not insignificant, Hypfemales would surely need to at least be a median in size between hypmales and andros.

>>7300873
Given this, it seems reasonable that this three-gendered group would form small, insular clans without a lot of outbreeding.

Also, consider the (unrelated) possibility of an indefinite number of genders. I think I'll make a note of this for my goblins.

>>7301849
ooook,
So what you're getting at is that the Andros are typically the subservient ones, despite being pivotal to the economy. If that's what you're getting at then it sounds like it's the HyFems and HyMascs who might form bonds and the Andro is just a subservient middle-man, who is kept in line and working by the HyFem while the HyMasc is away. Seems possible I suppose, even if unlike at first glance. I mean women have been next to property in many cultures even though they are arguably more pivotal and productive for a society than men.

I like the Andros being the real leaders more, but that could work too.

Does anybody have the skills to un-anime-fy the OP's pic? Because it is all kinds of awesome but damn I fucking hate every second drawing of a female on this board being weeabo crap.

>>7301941
At best the Hypfems would be choosing Andros who's judgement of what Hypmales are good mates are percieved to be the best. Considering that the Hypfemales are not particularly mobile, reside in the very core of a clan territory, and don't have sex with hypmales, and due to the difference in proportions probably seem like uncanny valley to each other, contact between the two opposite genders seems unlikely, save specific diplomatic instances or what have you, where things would likely be far too awkward.

>>7301963

Closest thing I have.

>>7301941

Well, even if they have better social skills, it doesn't necessarily mean that they'll be relegated to the role of merchant / politician. Their social skills could be put to use raising young, and appeasing HypFems/HypMascs.

>>7301941
...on second thought the HyMasc-HyFem pair seems unlikely since they are not sexually attracted to one and other, but to the Andro. The HyMascs would just be on the lookout for the best Andros, and not care which HyFem own that Andro.
...And since the Andro is the selector it would wield power over reproduction anyway. Unless HyFems owned Andros, in order for HyMascs to come and mate with. But still that makes little sense to me. And it would make for a very divided society where the two genders who matter have no loyalty to one and and other. It seems to make more sense with the Andros marrying HyFems (both wielding certain a undetermined portion of power) and the Andros going out and selecting HyMascs.

Of course both ways are kind-of possible so I don't suspect your players are going to call you on it either way.

>>7302005

Since HypFems are going to be thinkers / priests, it would make sense for them to be in relatively regular contact with the HypMascs. The HypMascs will want to go to them in order to gain the blessings of the spirits/gods/force. HypMascs chosen to be educated would spend time with HypFem teachers. And there's the possibility that a HypFem might refrain from becoming pregnant in order to travel with a group of HypMascs and act as the general.

>>7302047
>>7302005
Yeah, logically it would have to be the Androgynes who bind society together, with the HyFems being close second, and HyMascs being kind of vagabonds. The andros have the most economic relevance AND they are CAPABLE of being a sexual selector of HyMascs in a way that the HyFems aren't.

If Andros are subservient or irrelevant there are no family units, since it is hard for me to see the HyMascs and HyFems bonding long term, only to fuck the family dog.

>>7302047

HypMascs and HypFems could be attracted to each other, even if sex between them is meaningless. You have to remember that people can be sexually attracted to members of the same sex / children (and that depending on what culture you're in, this could be very common), even though no children will be born of such a union.

>>7302133
Sure they 'could' be attracted to one and other, but unless that is the norm it is unlikely to be a formal practice.

I guess it would be possible for the HyMasc and HyFem to sexually select for one and other, but in order for that to happen the Andro is relegated to the role of a non-selecting worker-bee, whom, ironically, is the actual one both of them mate for.

If the Andros are marginalized then surely individual HyMascs and HyFems might come together in order to maintain the Anro (or Andros) who are the most productive/sexually desireable, to both Hy-genders.

Family unit:

The Androgyn, HypFem, and any children. While recognized as family, adult HypMales are not seen as being parents, and mating with a HypMale may not even been seen as "sex" (or at least on a lower level than intercourse between Androgyns and HypFems).

For the most part, HypFems get to choose their Androgyn partner as well as making most of the important household decisions. HypFems tend to look down on Androgyns, viewing them as both weak and simple-minded (as opposed to the HypMascs who are simply seen as simple-minded). Nominally, Androgyns are to have HypFem permission before mating with a HypMasc; however, in practice they're usually given a blank cheque. HypMascs, while possessing preferences for specific Androgyns, aren't terribly picky and are willing to fuck any of them (with the more aggressive ones forcing the issue).

Child rearing is split between the HypFem and Androgyn. The HypFems do their part of the child rearing communally and act as teachers. The Androgyns take care of social issues as well as acting as general babysitters (unless the child is HypFem, they stay exclusively with their HypFem parent).

>>7302207
plus, if the andros are the marginalized underdogs that the Hy-genders simply use to reproduce and work, then it starts to sound like a ST:TNG episode-baaawwww fest for the plight of downtrodden trans-gender people, and seems too much like a shallow foil to the other races. The race becomes kind of a race of masculine men and feminine women, who just have this neutral worker bee cast they use.

If the power was divided roughly 40% Andro, 35% HyFem, and 25% HyMasc, each would have their role, and the race would seem more genuinely "different". Plus the Andros seem to hold a lot of the cards in their hands in terms of production and sexual choices, that is unless the HyFems are so much more intelligent that they dominate all the social organizations at the core of the community. Even then it seems like it would just tip the balance slightly more in favor of the HyFems, with the HyMascs staying about the same.

>>7302133
Consider yourself in their scenario:
A hypermale sees something that acts most like the gender they breed with, only large, and with all these creepy looking buldges all over it. It sure as hell doesn't look like it can survive on its own, it wouldn't last a moment in the wilds you know. The only sympathy you have for it is some vague recollection of your life from before you became part of the brotherhood.

A hypfemale sees something that actually looks threatening, an alien concept to them, but it seems to be on good terms with the Andros. They move around with a bestial grace far exceeding even the andros. They speak of a life constantly on the move, something utterly abhorrent in concept to you.

>>7302317

I'm not sure if mating practices alone are enough to qualify the Androgyns as the oppressed underdog. Even if they don't have the most choice when it comes to which Hyp-sex they mate with, they'd still be capable of wielding social power and would probably wind up being granted more rights than HyMascs. Potentially the HyMascs's only right might involve mating as property is dealt with by the other genders and anything they claim out on the hunt / battlefield is given to the family.

>>7298957
You shouldn't care about realism unless it's hard scifi. It's hard as fuck to get "realistic" results and it generaly fails at providing fun.

>>7302385
Attempting to get realistic results is the fun.

I just realise intertribal politics would be pretty damn weird since the closest analogy the Andros and Hypfemales have to another social group is the Hypmales. Considering those guys pretty much bugger off to do their own thing most of the time.

>>7302345

I think you're overplaying just how alien they'd appear to each other. There's also the possibility that them engaging in sexual activity with each other could help to cement social bonds in the community and help to keep HypMascs loyal.

>>7302409
well yeah
that
>>7300808
was my take on it...

Andros of different tribes would most likely be the ones to be most adept at getting along with one and other. No actually scratch that... those andros would be in competition for both HyMascs and HyFems. So it's probably the HyFems who are the diplomats since they would compete only for the Andros, who are relatively sedentary, and thus are unlikely to defect to the other tribe... I... think.
...or the Andros because they have goods to trade, unlike the hy-genders. Fuck I dunno...

>>7302456

Early stage negotiations are dealt with by Androgyns, because of their social graces; however, the more important diplomatic discussions would be done by HyFems since they are the ones actually in charge of government.

Comparing homosexuality to hypmales and hypfemales isn't really valid though, its more like comparing a guy wanting to fuck a horse because women ride them all the time. You don't even get to draw the analogy of wanting to fuck a woman as if they were a horse fucking her.

Not only is there no sexual imperative, but there isn't even an acclimatisation factor like theres is with human homosexuality.

I don't understand why the men want to live in the woods or whatever.

>>7302508
Yeah, but assuming that the three (pre)historically dwelled together, sex would likely be important to group cohesion. And it seems reasonable that whatever the state now, the males, being the baddest fuckers of the species, would have stuck around to protect the family. Isn't that usually the way predators do it?

>>7302517

Because they're aggressive hunters, and they get antsy when they have to stay in the settlement for too long. When they get antsy they start breaking things which pisses off the HypFems, and when that happens they get kicked out of the tribe.

>>7302486
If you are going to go ahead with this whole HyFems-dominate-the-andros bit, then you should probably think of some of the mechanism by which the the HyFems enforce their will on the Andros.

Physical force is one, though the HyFem is likely severely weakened and dependent during pregnancy, and their bodies, though slightly larger, are most poorly adapted for physical confrontation.

Restriction of freedom is another. There is a problem there however. In a patriarchal society a man could limit the activity of his wife into the home, where she was most of the time anyway. A HyFem can't really do that since all of the work and business outside of the household is taken care by the Andro.

Withholding financial support. Again, works for humans, but since the Andro is the skilled laborer it is the HyFem who is economically dependent, not the Andro.

Outside physical force. The HyFem could get a HyMasc to guard and coerce the Andro. Proble: the HyMasc wants to mate with the andro, not the HyFem, and seeks econimic reward from the goods produced by the Andro. The HyMasch need very little form the HyFem, and is more likely to help the Andro to dominate the HyFem, than the other way around.

Forced sexual compliance. Again works for humans, but HyFem can force the Andro all she wants. Unless the Andro is free to select and mate with a HyMasc nothing will come of it.

There is likely a good solution for more than one of these. The HyFems would need some reliable way (preferably more than one) to enforce their will over the Andros, if they are to be dominant.

I would say; solve some of those problems and then you're in business.

>>7302545
Just seems like they'd rather hang out and take advantage of the comfort, even if they like their hunting trips or whatever.

>>7302542
The thing is, sex with Hypfems isn't necessary for this.

Say theres a stampeding rhino-equivalent herd heading for the central village or something, the Hypmales will already be thinking "Those pretty andro girlies aren't exactly built to take on a charging rhino, if we don't divert the herd away there will be NO SEX NEXT TIME WE VISIT".

Hell, their society would continue to function exactly the same if none of the hypermales except for their top brass even knew about the existence of hyperfemales.

>>7302607
Doesn't the male have an interest in who mates with his andro?

HyMascs could possibly use their physical prowess to maintain harems of Androgyns/HyFems. Of course, neither the Andorgyns nor the HyFems really care for that scenario, so they work together to double team the HyMascs. As the ones raising the children, the HyFems and Androgyns instill a sense of honor in HyMascs that forces them into the role of hunter despite it not being as financially rewarding as the work performed by Androgyns. Additionally, HyFem priests maintain that HyMascs are impure and should minimize contact with the settlement thus reducing their power once again.

I suspect being an andro carrying a sem-fertilised egg but with no hypfems willing to recieve it would suck pretty hard.

Fear of that very scenario is probably one of the ways the Hypfems gain some social power.

The thinker implication thats been mentioned all over this thread comes from them not having as much of a say in whether their own needs are fulfilled or not, either there are andros feeding them or there aren't, etc. so idle hands find things to do. And in this case that might well be a combination of time-consuming crafting of goods and collaborating on a religion to give themselves power.

>>7302607
>>7302594
This shit right here.

Ultimately, The HyMascs and Andros exchange Goods (and sex) for protection (and sex). The Andros and HyFems exchange goods and shelter for offspring (and sex). Everyone needs something from someone, but EVERYONE needs SOMETHING from the Andros. And a lot of it is stuff which is hard to take by force.

That needs to be solved somehow, if the Hyfems are to wiled MOST power.

>>7302746

Well, as priests, the HyFems could always play the religion card. Do as we say or you're going to hell.

>>7302772
That's not going to happen for the same reason that every priesthood on the planet you live on is male dominated. Those with the power make the rules.

>>7302707
>>7302692

Imagine a situation where there is hot chick who is kept prisoner by a strange and not particularly attractive creature. The strange creature seems to be treating the hot chick badly. You frequently trade with the girl, she seems rich and industrious and makes useful things, and sometimes have sex with her. As a HyMasc how does this situation look to you.

Wouldn't you be incline to help the girl, to make the strange creature subservient to the two of you, especially is she asked you to.

Obviously it isn't that simple, but I'm just saying...

I see the most likely scenarios as HyMasc ruled Andro wives/harems, who have HyFem sub-wives/sub-harems. Or, andros have wives, and pic HyMasc mates.

As it is, the HyFems simply don't have enough cards in their hand to wield all the power. Solve that somehow. Make the fucking wizards if you have to, but as it is they simply don't have the kind of leverage the Andros or HyMascs have.

Depending on just how low magic the setting is, magical ability could be something restricted to HyFems. Even if most HyFems lack magical ability, the one with it would be able to wield a considerable amount of power. Any magical ability would also go a long ways to explain how they came to be viewed as spiritual guides.

>>7302772
Religious power is a start. It's enough to give them a clear and important role. That alone is not enough to make them absolute top dogs, though. All truly influential religious power in history has been backed by political, social and military power of some kind. If the world has functioning magic/religion then you might have to resort to that.

Who has the power to kick ass?

HyMascs. They rule.

All the rest is nonsense. Who are you to say otherwise? Are you an Andro? Boot to the head. A HyFem? Boot to the head.

HyMascs rule. Unless the other genders have special powers or superior organization the HyMascs reign supreme.

>>7302928
>superior organization

That's strongly implied since HyFems are more intelligent and Androgyns are blessed with social graces. If HyMasc rule proved to be unfavorable for both of them (and given how aggressive the HyMascs are, that's a very likely scenario), they could work together to steal power away.

>>7302928
That IS the other alternative, which I can see. However, the HyMascs are culturally and genetically nomads. They may require/prefer a high-protein, high-fat diet, which cannot be sustained by any other means that by living in the wilderness in hunting bands, or by herding domesticated animals, again in the wilderness. They are not skilled laborers (though I'm not sure why they couldn't learn), and they insular cultural temperament is unsuitable for sedentary life. They may also be highly territorial, against males outside of their own band, and HyMascs of another tribe marching up to their porch is simply not an option for them, so they patrol their range.

Remember that Sapiens out competed the neanderthal, who was phenotypically unsuitable for a lifestyle other than hunting big game, because they needed to eat like body builders to stay healthy.

All those points can be argued against, but if we want to keep the HyMascs in their role, those would be viable arguments.

>>7303015
Not to mention cultural-evolutionary viability of the whole tribe. A tribe in which the HyMascs would have sttled down, and lost their muscles, their territorial culture and their control of the land, would have been out competed by rival tribes in which that did not happen.

No body is saying that it is not possible for pockets of the race to have alternative social organization. Ex: an island dwelling culture in which there are no competing tribes or dangerous animals, so the HyMascs have adopted a sedentary life, eventually forcing the Andros into subservient position, and the HyFems into a sub-subservient position.

Evidently that would however not be the norm.

I feel like we've gotten some shit done here.
maybe this should be archived.

I would recommend reading Octavia Butler's "Xenogenesis" series (often sold in an omnibus titled "Lilith's Brood"). It's about a race of trisexual naturally self-genetic engineering aliens that come to earth to try and integrate what's left of humanity into themselves after a crazy group of rich dudes got together and decided to commit species suicide. I'd explain more about it but I'm high as fuck and don't feel like writing down what I just spent ten minutes telling to my stoner friend. Read up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenogenesis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenogenesis

>>7303080
Indeed. And this is also a good reason for the Hymascs to keep their weaker specimens around. Everytime two rival hymasc groups pass by each other, they are going to be gauging strength. If they could concievably mop up a rival group, they will, because suddenly they'll have access to a whole other settlement worth of mates. Having the runts towards the back of the pack adds to the numbers at a range too far away for them to determine how strong the individuals look. If a tribe doesn't keep their Hymascs running around beating lions to death, they'll lose fitness and gain a reputation of being easy to kill in rival tribes.

When an environmental turbulence happens, one of the first things would be to check on the rival Hymasc tribes. "Damnit, theres still some left", as they observe the men who, previously useless hunters, are now perfectly adapted to the climate.

And also, yes, archive.

It's archived at http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/7298957/

Ok, so, the trisex race has the strong brutish HyMasc hunters who live a mostly nomadic either hunter or herding animals outside of the main settlement. The Androgyns are the farmers and merchants, with a penchant for engaging in social activities. The HyFems are intellectuals and priests, as well as being the only gender capable of utilizing magic.

Socio-politically, HyFems are in charge thanks to their keen intellect and magical ability; however, they're aware that they need the Androgyns on board or risk losing that power to a Androgyn/HyMasc coalition. As such, Androgyns are allowed to participate in government by electing HyFems to government. HyMasc's aren't allowed to own property inside the boundaries of the settlement, and are indoctrinated from an early age to obey the HyFem priestesses.

HyMasc culture is effectively separate from Androgyn/HyFem culture. It places a heavy emphasis on strength, while also encouraging a sense of brotherhood and pack mentality. HyMasc runts are educated to allow them to act as tacticians, doctors, and chaplains to the HyMasc's outside the settlement. Additionally, it's not uncommon for a handful of HyMasc's chosen for their loyalty to be kept in the settlement as honor guard for the HyFem priests.

Inter-tribal relations tend to vary considerably, but there seems to be a slight lean towards martial conflict. However, such conflict rarely results in one tribe being subjugated by the other. Instead it gains "honor" for the HyMascs involved as well as hunting rights in the territory. It also keeps the HyMascs from looking inward to contemplate their lot in society.

Did we ever really decide what to do with the single sex race? All I caught was the proposition for freaky skin sex, and a couple other ideas I don't really understand that are based off of bacteria.

>>7303596
We did not, but I'm all for skin sex. Dry humping: not so dry any more.

>>7303596

I tossed this idea

>>7300795

out a while ago, but /tg/ was too busy talking about traps and DAT ASS to pay attention.