You're the one in the gay hat, bro.

And that's why everyone that's not a giant dick likes 4e better.

I can taste the jealousy (level 1 spell: Taste Jealousy. It tastes *delicious*).

Never fear, for I am generous.

>>13237251
Oh yeah, we all love the people you hate on this side, you keep on believing that.

>>13237251

You are not a wizard, OP. You are a dunce. Wizard hats have brims, dunce caps do not. You'd know that if you weren't such a dunce.

Hexblades can beat you.

HEXBLADES.

Shut the fuck up.

For those of lesser intellect (aka non-wizards) who have not caught on yet, this thread is essentially for the discussion of how much better we masters of the arcane are than everyone else (Yes, even you druids. You're on the shitlist. Psions are cool though, you can hang out with us).

We're even a better shot with a crossbow than the rest of you.

Level 1 wizard : I cast magic missle and get cut in half the following round LOL

>>13237323

Level 6 wizard:

The Wizard Is Now Invisible!

I'm on a fly spell.

>>13237281
What's that? I can't hear you over the sound of all these disintegrates heading your way.

Also bullets.

itt

Dear pompous dress wearing bearded geeks:

Due to your inability to take a hit, you will never be able to go out and adventure without support. Due to your neglect of your body in exchange for mental pursuits, you are unable to carry a fully loaded ruck sack for more than ten miles a day. Also due to the above mentioned, you must rely on yout assortment of spells to get you through an entire day, as your martial prowess is laughable.

All these things added together means that while you CAN become super powered gods, without the aid of those tin can wearing men swinging a length of sharp steel around.

Sincerly, the guy who stands between you and the mob of orcs/trolls/umber hulks/anything that can pretty much kill you if it gets it's hands on you.

PS: Some things are smart enough to have anti magic fields. So are some fighters. Just saying.

>>13237355

That's what tensers floating disc is for, you peasant.

Also, a wall of iron is entirely non-magical. Think about that as it's incredible bulk flattens you, after being cast just above the highest point of your precious AM feild.

>>13237355
Some people (us wizards. ...Oh, and the psions too, them too) are smart enough to fly above the pitiful range of said antimagic aura and drop boulders we have reduced to pebbles through magic on you.

Here's a hint: They're not pebbles when they reach you any more.

Also, you can be replaced by summoned monsters and, at later degrees of prowess and with some investment, golems offer a much less mouthy guard.

Thief here, don't mind me, just sneaking up on you and stabbing you in the back.

>>13237348
Fort-save spells against Hexblades? You are a fucking moron.

I guess next you'll throw enchantments against them, right?

>>13237365
While your comment about the disc is correct, you are clearly a poser wizard or you would realize the wall must be placed on a solid surface.

I'm sorry cleric, but the magic domain does not make you one of us.

Wizard you are grappled. What do?

>>13237383

Not when I sleep inside my pocket of extradimensional space.

>>13237398
I already cast freedom of movement earlier. Your move.

>>13237384
Merely iconic and also the least messy. Did you miss the bullets? There are bullets too.

>>13237398
Dimension Door

To whom it may concern:

A vast majority of people are dicks, wizards included. Many of them choose to favor their minds heavily, preventing them from carrying their weight physically. These are civilian wizards. I went through basic, I did my time, and now I'm an artilleryman, combat engineer, and currently working black ops. I do this alongside fighters and rogues of all kinds, and they have their strengths- uniquely so, each of them. However, it stands that I had to step twice as fast to keep up, and now it's paying off, pure and simple. I take out my targets from more than two hundred yards out, am never seen, and never known.

Not all wizards are dicks, but just like a fighter- a good one will turn you into a bloody smear.

-Aleksei

>>13237470
System: Pathfinder
Stats-
STR 14
DEX 19
CON 12
INT 22
WIS 11
CHA 10

Notable feats: Endurance, Improved Unarmed Strike, Martial Weapon Proficiency (Axes)

[I love playing this character.]

>>13237342
next encounter, out of spells, cut in half LOL

>>13237470
>>13237484
Traitor to the cause! Even the magic domain cleric over there is better than you.

Wizard, please stick to arcane support and suppression.

Eldritch Theurge got this.

9d6 Eldritch Blast at 200ftl and the effect of a fireball, or any other damaging arcane spell, released on impact.

Best not get close, orcs. Stay by my fighter friend and get smacked around a little
9d6 20ft radius or 40ft cone, with same negative level effect and a fireball explosion from every target in the blast hit.

No DM worth his salt doesn't keep the casters in line by firing off more encounters then he has spells for if the caster gets uppity.

>>13237490

Sleep, colour spray, fireball, grease. I'm still fully-combat capable.

Wizards are LOSERS. Those spell reagents? Totally burned them all last night, along with the rest of your stuff.

>>13237523

Yeah, but how do you make sure that the fighters aren't already heavily damaged by that stage?

....what makes you think I need that magic weapon to hurt you?

I can pick up a ROCK and kill you. From a distance. Sorry, heavier than an arrow, so Windwall isn't going to work. Stoneskin? I can throw a lot harder than that and I know just how to make it hurt, even through magical armoring of skin - or non-magical; I can hurt dragons with a plain old knife. Oh, the old cloudkill and focecage bit? I'm faster than that; you'll need to work a lot harder to catch me in one of those. Flying away? I'll just hang out somewhere in these woods. Oh, it's your clairvoyance spell. Hi there! So you know where I am, do you? Well, I know you're not too far away - it's not that long range a spell....I can hear the wind ripplign through your invisible robe, wiz-boy. Come on, got anythign better? Oh, yeah, a death spell. Sorry, I have a few too many hitpoints and a good fort save. Oh noes, polymorph. Yawn. Try something that might WORK. Oh, a lightning bolt! Thank's for clearing my line of sight! Have a javeling....oops, you're staggered. Sorry about those improved crits. Well, you can run away or cast a spell now....better make it a good one. Don't bother with the quickened shit - well, you could, but my saves are too good for any of that to bug me.

You got one shot....run away or kill me...and if you fail....you're dead.

>>13237532
Feat: Eschew Materials
Feat: Spell Mastery
Spell: Secret Chest
-> Contents of chest: one spellbook.

Wizard can still kick your ass.

>>13237539
Someone already cast Butthurt on you.

>I can pick up a ROCK and kill you. From a distance. Sorry, heavier than an arrow, so Windwall isn't going to work. Stoneskin? I can throw a lot harder than that and I know just how to make it hurt, even through magical armoring of skin - or non-magical; I can hurt dragons with a plain old knife.

Hurt, not kill. You've got a turn to kill me, and then you're dog meat.

>Oh, the old cloudkill and focecage bit? I'm faster than that; you'll need to work a lot harder to catch me in one of those.
Bullshit. You get your turn of movement, and then bam, single cast and you're boxed.

>Flying away? I'll just hang out somewhere in these woods.
Feel free, I'm alive, and you're reduced to hiding. My victory.

>Oh, it's your clairvoyance spell. Hi there! So you know where I am, do you? Well, I know you're not too far away - it's not that long range a spell....I can hear the wind ripplign through your invisible robe, wiz-boy.

I know where you are. You don't know where I am. I don't wear loud robes, and your listen checks are NOT that good to detect me before I blow your ass up.

>Come on, got anythign better? Oh, yeah, a death spell. Sorry, I have a few too many hitpoints and a good fort save.

Death if you fail, 200 damage if you pass. You're maimed either way.

>Oh noes, polymorph. Yawn.
Fail the roll, and you're useless. That is far from unlikely.

Your saves are NOT good enough to negate everything by a longshot.

>>13237539
>Telekinesis
:V

>>13237539
That poor bastard is dead. What about the wizard who already has you in his sights from a hundred miles away?

See, it's funny, because due to a certain feat I took at character creation, I am stronger than the barbarian. That is how I do magic. Yeah. My strength.
You jelly?

>>13237588

That poor barstard still has most of his health left, and any number of raping spells to kick the fighters ass. Said fighter who apparently has every weapon for every situation, all of them enchanted, MASSIVE listen and spot checks, knows instinctively where everything is within a 10 km radius, will always hit, always do max damage, and always crit. He also has saves that will never fail.

>>13237604
Hold on, I'm going to create a rape spell... a literal rape spell.

Fighters exist to make better use of buffs granted by the wizard.

Lots of buff spells that wizards can't really make that good usage of, but a close combat warrior could.

>>13237539

Sorry dude, but there are ability drain spells without saves that can be maximized for the other kind of insta-kill. Wizards win, obv, every time.

>Implying I'm not a Cleric.

>>13237604

Sounds like 4e.

>>13237580
I see you don't know much about Pathfinder spells. That is why you would die.

>Implying I'm not a winged variant githyanki swordsage with weapon finesse, improved critical, and some overpowered exotic weapon, wearing antimagic armor. Mexican Motif.

>>13237647
>He plays Pathfinder

>>13237580
Death spell does not do 200 damage fuck you.

>>13237539
Oh look, the fighter has forgotten to take his medication again. I do believe he's hallucinating.

>>13237664
Not that guy, but why you not like Pathfinder?

>>13237654
>Implying your wings are actually capable of flight without magic and would not become useless for as long as you wore that absurd and useless armor.

ITT: BAAAAW.

Having played fighters, wizards, and clerics, I can tell you that you're all full of shit.

Maybe you should spend less time pouring over numbers and more time enjoying the company of your friends? Pretend you're playing D&D to have fun with friends and not win. Who knows. You might actually have some fun.

>Implying I don't have a spear drenched in Purple worm poison

>>13237687
Look up winged creature template in savage species.

Yes, yes I can fly.

Get the Arms and equipment guide too, for the armor.

OP here

>>13237691
Actually, I started this whole thread as a satiric "Wizards are assholes" thing, hoping to generate lots of hilarious wizard reaction images and general acts of magical dickery.

Instead I got... everyone taking it seriously and flipping the fuck out, sending this entire topic into a troll spiral that I had never intended and was not nearly as amusing as what I had originally hoped for.

In closing, I am Disappoint, /tg/.

>>13237666
PF death spell does 10 points per level if you fail save. Success and it does 3d6 +1 point/level damage instead. Forcecage has a reflex save to negate. Invisibility gives +40 to stealth of you are not moving, casting spells, or doing anythign other than hiding very quietly in one single place. +20 if you are doing anything other than that - and a fighter can have a +23 perception check by 10th level. Any spell that is fort based must be his highest level spell with specializations to have anythign more than a 50% chance to succeed. Will and reflex saves are significantly easier - as long as they are high level (quickening them means you have negated the bonus for it being his worst save), and he doesn't have the feats that give him rerolls (which lower your success rate significantly as well). Penetrating Strike allows a fighter to ignore damage reduction. their attack bonuses mean ranged weaponry is still going to hit a significant portion of the time at long distances against the highest AC's a wizard can amass at higher levels even without magical augmentation.

It's a little ridiculous in presentation, but it's fairly accurate otherwise. It makes the same sort of assumptions most people make about wizards in Pathfinder, except with a fighter bias.

That said, this thread is silly.

>oussum person
If you say so, Captcha-tan.

And then Tordek had consensual sex with Mialee.

>>Fighters are LOSERS. That +5 sword? Totally disjunctioned it last night, along with the rest of your stuff.
You are just a plain old fashioned dick, that is all. Stop roleplaying get out of the gamig group and kill yourself! The world is better off and nothing of value is lost.

>>13237726
Tordek has my sincere sympathy. No one should have to fuck Mialee. What was she blackmailing him with?

>>13237677
Paid for house rules

>>13237731
She was a wizard, she made him do it with her unnatural powers.

>>13237739
Working CR system. Fuck 4e and 3.5 alike. That shit was so messed up.

"That +5 sword? Totally disjunctioned it last night, along with the rest of your stuff."
"Why would y-"
"And I know its your birthday so I went out of my way these last few months to make you these in secret, a +5 Keen Vorpal Great Sword, It cost me quite a bit of gold and experience but its worth it to be your friend"

>>13237763
That fucking bastard. That goddamn bastard.

Any enemy so much as fucking touches that son of a bitch, they're going to be a fine red paste. I don't care if they're blue on the inside, I'll kill them until their paste turns red!

>>13237396
Magic is fake.

I once had a wizard with a 16 strength who actually took improved unarmed strike and improved grapple. He specialized in Abjurations and Necromancy. By level five he was merrily removing the left hands of his slain foes to make crawling claws.

I tell you all of this to that you understand that at level 11 when he had a +18 bonus to his regular dispel checks and effectively shut down most enemy casters and the DM threw a fighter at me when I was low on spells.

The fighter was geared towards grappling and had the feats from Complete Arcane that allowed him to bypass all of my buffs after the first feat. The DM gloated when he grappled and pinned me in the first round of combat. Then I smiled and commanded my 39 crawling claws to get the bastard. Beat him to a bloody pulp because I may not have a great bonus to grapple even with improved grapple, but I had alot of help. Beat him to a bloody pulp and took his left hand to add to my collection.

Wizards win 9 times out of 10.

And then the Werewolf-barbarian-frenzied-berserker-fighter in a suit of Golem Armor comes and rapes everything.
And i mean EVERYTHING.

>>13237751
>CR system
>working
Yeah no, Pathfinder futzed up the CR system completely. Look at new orcs, compare to old orcs. Three times the hitpoints, still CR1/3? They're more powerful than most CR1 monsters. It just gets worse from there.

>>13237804
Someone sounds like an anal pained individual who can't handle a challenge

>>13237797

That's the DM's fault for letting you mass an army so early in the game.

I mean, if you really want to exploit mechanics, just fucking get yourself a shade and have it end the world.

Yes, it can be done. In days.

>>13237804
I have to agree with this elegan/tg/entalman, though honestly competent DMs shouldn't rely on the CR listed anyways.

>>13237814
Or maybe it's a CR system that is complete balls defended by people who are equally balls

>>13237804

Orcs are tough by nature. I rarely use the HP listed. Usually I used two to three times as much.

For everything.

>Wizards
>Superior

Oh lawdy

>>13237823
>CR system works
>no it doesn't
>It works if DM fixes it

Muscle Wizard here. Don't mind me, just wielding the best of both worlds and surpassing all of you handily. Ho ho!

>>13237787
Remember those stories where people can't use magic because they don't believe it exists?

Reverse that. People are injured and actually killed by magic until they realize it doesn't really exist, and from that point on they are completely immune and are just seeing random idiots flailing their arms around and chanting, to no effect, except someone else dying.

The villains are wizards who want to stop the fighter, so they kill his loved ones who still believe. The fighter kidnaps and mindrapes them one by one until they stop believing in their own power, and die due to extended life via magic no longer existing.

>>13237834
>mage armor
Ouch.

>>13237804
Your ignorance is monumental.

CR=Character level -2. Alternatively....
CR=Character Level with no Wealth at all - in other words, any character class with the most basic necessities and no magical items at all. NPC wealth is a +1, while character wealth is a +2.
So if your players are not wiping a CR equivalent monster off their boots in a round or two, you're doing something horribly wrong. BBEG? That's a CR+3 fight at least, or a CR+2 with few CR=level minions as well. And if the heroes don't work together, both of those fights will finish them off. A CR+4 fight is a death sentence, because their spells won't work as it makes every single save, and no one will be able to hit it on anything other than natural 20s.

It works very well - in context. Out of context, especially compared to the nonsensical 3.5 CR system of pure failure and made up numbers, of course it looks silly.

>>13237818
Oh, I have to agree with you, if I had picked something a with a little more bite to it I could have ended the world easily enough, however that character didn't see a point in ending the world. After if he kills everyone he would no one to talk to.

Instead he simply wanted to amass as much wealth and power as possible while applying as little work as possible. For instance, he refused to do any house work. All house work as relegated to his collection of skeletons and crawling claws. He even refused to dress himself, having his minions do it for him.

Part of playing a wizard in 3.5 is knowing how far you can go without ruining the game you're playing in. So for instance my wizard was absurdly powerful defensively, but he was actually pretty terrible offensively because of my choices in character creation and where I decided to spend my money.

>>13237850
I can just see the torture scenes.

"RENOUNCE YOUR BELIEF IN MAGIC!" *STAB*

"but...AARRGHH...magic..is real!"

"RENOUNCE YOUR FAITH!!" *STAB*

>>13237854
And yet you completely fail to address the actual point which is that a CR1/3 creature is technically better than most CR1 creatures. All those words and you overshot completely. Amazing.

>>13237853

>Magic-Penetrating Fists

You jellyfish?

>>13237876
No....you're comparing a creature from a completely different and utterly broken system to a creature in a system that actually has math and planning behind how it is constructed. 3.5 monster====//////=====PF monster in any way, shape or form other than name and vague references to powers and abilities. It's like saying a M&M d20 Super is the same as a Champions d20 Super. The systems might be the same but the math is so different as to make them incomparable.

You make me a sad bunny.

It's true that wizards are almost always more powerful than fighters, but let's remember what we're talking about:

D&D is a game designed around fantasy tropes. In nearly every fantasy setting, the fighter is the hero. It's not because he's powerful in and of himself in most cases, but because he wields a magical sword.amulet/fate mcguffin that makes him drastically more important.

Fighters aren't 'main character' material, in and of themselves. My only real problem with fighters is their lack of skill points. Fighters should be loaded with class skills; almost as loaded as rogues, to reflect their specialized training, which is what sets them apart from mere warriors. Tons of skill points, stuff like knowledge history and tactics, charisma based skills like bluff and diplomacy for leadership, etc.

Wow, you are a moron bunny. I'm literally taking the CR1/3 Pathfinder orc and comparing them to other Pathfinder CR1 creatures and saying the orc is better. I'm not comparing 3.5, I'm only staying in Pathfinder.

Pathfinder done fucked up a bunch. Just accept it. They even kept the silly "Dragons are more challenging than other monsters of their CR" and then made that worse because apparently CR doesn't mean anything to them at all. Giants are much easier to kill now thanks to vulnerability to humanoid only spells but their CR either stayed the same or went up. Pathfinder took the CR system and made it make less internal sense.

>>13237934
That's bullshit, bro. What's the reasoning behind that orc.

>>13237959
Orc: The listed orc is not a CR 1/3 character because orcs have no racial levels. They advance by class, like most 1 and 2 hit dice monsters do. You take away it's class level and it's now a 1/3 CR creature because it has no wealth and an NPC character class.

Not that hard to figure out.

..,s...s...stupid f..f...fighter...It's not like I want a meatshield that makes good use of my buffs...I...I didn't ask you to help me on my journey to ultimate arcane power, so we....I...I mean I....can live in luxury.

>>13237982
An Orc Warrior 1 is far more threatening than virtually any CR 1 monster.

>>13237986

>>13237997
Who thought this was a good idea.

>>13237934

butwhyareyoumad.jpg

>>13238006
OTP non-canonical crappy fanfiction Shippers designed it, /b/ funded for the lulz.

Holy fucking shit, Wizards? Get the fuck out of here. You know how I got my magic powers? Fucking your mother, your sister, your girlfriend, your girlfriend's sisters and friends, the teachers that you sucked up to, their sisters, their mothers, their daughters, and everyone else with tits in the college.
You? You worked for it. Sucker. I can bench press a motorcycle and talk to chicks, you can... What, pretend that your intimate memorization of noble banners actually matters?
Well identify deez nuts, buddy, 'cause the Sorcerers are the master race, and always have been. Fighters are cool, because at least they learned something masculine in college.

Long story short? Old magic in the blood>Some Newfag who stole his shit from a textbook.

>>13237986
Goddamnit, now I'm going to have to make a horribly tsundere wizard.

>>13238006
I like this one better.

Wizards are faggots. Fighters are faggots. Suck my giant green cock.

>>13237990
Isn't that mostly because they've got a greataxe? Like, their senses are still atrocious, and they've got nothing to really commend them outside of battle.

>>13237990
Except for level 4 kobolds.

Holy fuck adept 4 kobolds, or magewright 4 kobolds, or even a warrior 4 kobold is a goddamn punch and a half.

They are all still CR1.

>>13238013
Wow, what a...
>Sunglasses
...Cool Guy.

CoDzilla is busy eating your tears as you scrape your shit off the ground

>>13237982
>The listed orc is not a CR 1/3 character because orcs have no racial levels

Are you a retard or something? Racial levels do not enter into it. The orc, as in the monster entry, is 1/3 CR. Levels have nothing to do with it, the base orc is supposedly a 1/3CR monster, three of which are supposedly CR 1. One orc on its own is better than almost every other monster at CR 1. And yes, it actually has listed equipment so none of that bullshit either. You're supposed to be able to take the base orc without adding any levels or other bullshit to it and drop it into an adventure. Pathfinder simply messed the CR up, and it's just one example of how horribly they did it. All they actually did was to make XP easier to calculate, none of the "actual math" behind CR calculation was touched.

>>13238013

This guy's got the right idea.

>>13237971
Orc CR 1/3
AC 13, touch 10, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor)
hp 6 (1d10+1)
Fort +3, Ref +0, Will –1
Defensive Abilities ferocity
Weakness light sensitivity
Offense
Speed 30 ft.
Melee falchion +5 (2d4+4/18–20)
Ranged javelin +1 (1d6+3)
Statistics
Str 17, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 8, Cha 6
Base Atk +1; CMB +4; CMD 14
Feats Weapon Focus (falchion)
Skills Intimidate +2
SQ weapon familiarity
Treasure NPC gear (studded leather armor, falchion, 4 javelins,
other treasure)

AC 17, touch 10, flat-footed 17 (+5 natural, +2 shield)
hp 11 (2d8+2)
Fort +4, Ref +0, Will +0
Offense
Speed 30 ft., swim 15 ft.
Melee morningstar +2 (1d8+1), bite +0 (1d4); or claw +2 (1d4+1),
bite +2 (1d4+1)
Ranged javelin +1 (1d6+1)
Statistics
Str 13, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 9,
Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +1; CMB +2; CMD 12
Feats Multiattack
Skills Acrobatics +2, Perception +1, Swim +8;
Racial Modifiers +4 Acrobatics
Languages Draconic
SQ hold breath
Ecolo gy
Environment temperate swamps
Organization solitary, pair, band (3–12), or tribe (13–60)
Treasure NPC gear (heavy wooden shield, morningstar, 3
javelins)
Special Abilities: Hold Breath (Ex)

Oh yeah, that orc sure overpowers a lizardman. But wait, there's more comparisons.

>>13238038
I feel as though this is a bold conclusion to draw from a 1st level encounter, where the weapon the creature is carrying is likely to provide over half of its damage on average.

What's that? You have a sword? I have a dire polar bear. What's that? You have a spellbook? I pray for my shit in the morning. And I have a dire polar bear. I also AM a dire polar bear. And have summoned 5 other bears. Casts as we trip you to death.

>>13238051
Drow warrior 1 - CR 3
CE Medium humanoid (elf )
Init +2; Senses darkvision 120 ft.; Perception +2
Defense
AC 15, touch 12, flat-footed 13 (+2 armor, +2 Dex, +1 shield)
hp 4 (1d8)
Fort +2, Ref +2, Will –1; +2 vs. enchantment
Immune sleep; SR 7
Weaknesses light blindness
Offense
Speed 30 ft.
Melee rapier +2 (1d6/18–20)
Ranged hand crossbow +3 (1d4/19–20 plus poison)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 1st)
1/day—dancing lights, darkness, faerie fire
Statistics
Str 11, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 10
Base Atk +1; CMB +1; CMD 13
Feats Weapon Finesse
Skills Perception +2, Stealth +2; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Elven, Undercommon
SQ poison use

Svirfneblin ranger 1 - CR 1
N Small humanoid (gnome)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 120 ft., low-light vision; Perception +6
Defense
AC 15, touch 15, flat-footed 11 (+2 Dex, +2 dodge, +1 size)
hp 15 (1d10+5)
Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +2
SR 12
Offense
Speed 20 ft. (15 ft. in armor)
Melee heavy pick +3 (1d4+1/×4)
Ranged light crossbow +4 (1d6/19–20)
Special Attacks favored enemy (dwarf +2), +1 to attack vs.
dwarven and reptilian humanoids
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 1st)
Constant—nondetection
1/day—blindness/deafness (DC 12), blur,
disguise self
Statistics
Str 13, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10,
Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +1; CMB +1; CMD 15
Feats Toughness
Skills Craft (alchemy) +6,
Heal +4, Knowledge
(dungeoneering) +4,
Perception +6, Stealth +12 (+14
underground), Survival +4 (+5 tracking); Racial
Modifiers +2 Craft (alchemy), +2 Perception, +2
Stealth (+4 Stealth underground)
Languages Gnome, Undercommon
SQ stonecunning, track, wild empathy +0

Yep, definitely want to fight that svrifbeblin over the drow. Yep. No, wait, I lie.

>>13238063

>bears

>tripping

>>13238063
Druids beat Wizards until 7th or 8th level spells, prestige classes pending, in my opinion.

>>13238066
Drow have always been terrible warrior races though, especially at low levels. There's even an old wizards editorial about it.

>>13238066
Fire Beetle - CR 1/3
N Small vermin
Init +0; Senses low-light vision; Perception +0
Defense
AC 12, touch 11, flat-footed 12 (+1 natural, +1 size)
hp 4 (1d8)
Fort +2, Ref +0, Will +0
Immune mind-affecting effects
Offense
Speed 30 ft., fly 30 ft. (poor)
Melee bite +1 (1d4)
Statistics
Str 10, Dex 11, Con 11, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 7
Base Atk +0; CMB –1; CMD 9 (17 vs. trip)
Skills Fly –2
SQ luminescence

Hyena - CR 1
N Medium animal
Init +2; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +8
Defense
AC 14, touch 12, flat-footed 12 (+2 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 13 (2d8+4)
Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +1
Offense
Speed 50 ft.
Melee bite +3 (1d6+3 plus trip)
Statistics
Str 14, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6
Base Atk +1; CMB +3; CMD 15
Feats Skill Focus (Perception)
Skills Perception +8, Stealth +6 (+10 in tall grass); Racial
Modifiers +4 Stealth in tall grass

Definitely want to fight that hyena instead of the Fire beetle....that's what you said right? How about that Orc instead of the hyena? That easily dazzled, reaaly stupid, negative will save orc vrs this hyena? I'd rather fight the orc.

>evidence prommisl
That's what I said Captcha.

>>13238058
"The weapon it's carrying" is still supposed to be part of its CR calculation, just like how adding levels or equipment to monsters will modify CR. If it's listed in the entry, that calculation has presumably been done. Also, it's not just the weapon, it's the Ferocity thing which lets them fight at less than 0hp, which effectively triples their hit points and makes any fight with orcs take much longer and be more dangerous - again, textbook CR calculation which Pathfinder just ignored.

And that's not touching the dragon "more challenging than other creatures of their challenge rating" bullshit, which Pathfinder then made even sillier. CR was bonkers and Pathfinder made it worse except for how you should calculate XP rewards, and even there there's a ton of incidental problems.

>>13238084
>Poison Use.
Because they're backstabbing assassins. I wouldn't want to fight face to face if I didn't need to worry about poisoning myself.

But in every cingle case, the CR 1/3 creature is noticeably weaker than the CR 1 creature - including his so called overpowered orcs.

ITT Only math. No fun.

>>13238101
3 orcs are sure as hell WAY more threatening than the 1 lizardman tho

>>13238088
You mean the orc that has nearly triple the total hit points of other monsters thanks to Ferocity? Which will deal more damage on a hit and which has a much higher attack bonus than most of the others which you conveniently left out of your wall of text quote?

What about that CR3 drow, too? What the fuck?

>>13238101
Eh, that's crap. So is the idea his Orcs are equivalent to the other choices. So is the idea CR is less fucked in Pathfinder than in 3.5e default. They carried over almost all the same issues with monsters, he just pointed out the dragon one for instance and that's completely true. It only matters if it mattered to you in 3.5e, IMO and if it did what are you doing playing Pathfinder?

>>13238094
NPC gear - including the weapon - is listed. Also, the weaknesses - negative will save? Light Sensitivity which means a sunrod reduces it's attacks by -1 to hit? Exploitable and well known weaknesses of orcs.

You want to know what a dragon is? It's a Barbarian Hid Dice Melee class X/Sorcerer X/Eldritch Knight X character build. Outsiders? Stright up Eldritch Knight from level 1 to their hit die. Fae? Caster X/Other Caster X/Mystic Theaurge-like caster X.

You can break down most of the monsters into classes by hit dice if you bothered. Instead of class abilities, they have racial abilities.

But hey, what do I know.

>>13238114
>Melee falchion +5 (2d4+4/18–20)
He didn't leave it out, but holy fuck yeah that's kind of high compared to the others.

>>13238127
You actually seem to think that all classes are equal when you break them down by levels and this makes CR okay. That's only true if you think a level 20 fighter is the same thing as a level 20 wizard when it comes to being a challenge to a party in a fight, and since wizards are deliberately designed to be weaker at low and stronger at high that's obviously not true at any level.

>>13238127
>You want to know what a dragon is? It's a Barbarian Hid Dice Melee class X/Sorcerer X/Eldritch Knight X character build. Outsiders? Stright up Eldritch Knight from level 1 to their hit die. Fae? Caster X/Other Caster X/Mystic Theaurge-like caster X.
Either you're kind of a retard, or Pathfinder are huge retards. Monsters are certainly not class-based using anything other than monster racial 'class structure' advancement in default 3.5e, and if you think they are that is a case of you capitalising on similarities to further an incorrect assumption.

>>13238013

Sorcs fuck yeah!


Is this guy really in a discussion with a "dumb bunny"?
he's dumb ffs just stop it and he'll go away

>>13238154
Paizo. The company that makes Pathfinder is Paizo, not Pathfinder.

>>13238137
Fighter Attack bonus at 1st level is on average a +5 with damage 2d4+4 damage with the same crit range - but he actually has a will save that isn't in the negatives, isn't going to suffer light sensitivity that reduces his to hit rolls drastically if he's near a sun rod, and his AC will be much, much higher along with more hit points. The caster's AC is going to be higher, and the orcs are literally helpless before him, while the fighter is going to be plowing through them like wheat because they can barely hit him.

>>13238154
Try breaking them down. I did.

>>13238127
>light sensitivity
Not affected by a sunrod. Good try though.

>>13238146
Debatable. A level 20 fighter can do some pretty atrocious things to a party if he's given the same credit for preparation and intelligence that a wizard is. These are the guys who automatically confirm critical hits and add double-digit modifiers to their Initiative, while potentially making use of items, wands and scrolls to emulate or counteract most of the nut-crushing effects that spellcasters can put into place.
While I admit that at the upper ends, a wizard is a far more dangerous enemy than a fighter or, say, a barbarian, at lower intensities of play this isn't a problem that surfaces often.

>>13238176
On the flipside, it probably is affected by the actual sun. So barring an already lopsided encounter, the Orc will be at a significant disadvantage.

>>13238173
But a level in one class is not equal to a level in another class, so it's a pointless exercise.

>>13238191
If you accept that as a given, then this is not something you need to illustrate, because the system is already irreparably broken. A class can be "worth" different amounts contextually, but for simplicity, treating them as being equal is easier mechanically.

>>13238189
Why would an Orc choose to fight in the sun? And since when does it shine in places like large caverns where you'd meet orcs in the first place? Don't try to paint this as an advantage for the players, sunlight is essentially not something they can control until very late in the game.

>>13238206
It's "easier" to do it that way because it's wrong. Sadly wrong, wrong in a sense that Pathfinder should have tried to fix it, but still wrong. Basing your math on a faulty assumption leads to a faulty conclusion. Even the Pathfinder devs know that the game was designed a certain way, and that this way includes classes not being internally balanced with one another, so treating them as equal elsewhere in the system makes no sense at all and will produce bad results.

>>13238180
doesn't matter what "intensity" you're playing at when "fighters good at low, spellcasters good at high" is a core assumption of the game system. You can't just ignore that assumption elsewhere in the same system because it's inconvenient.

>>13238207
It is a potential advantage, absolutely, and I will paint it precisely as such. Particularly when the only time it is not an advantage is when the enemy is given a marked advantage in having the environment precisely suit his needs, while giving the players no such courtesy.

>>13238235
I don't actually believe that this is a core assumption of the system. Where have you read this? Is this an operational principle upon which the game runs?

>>13238191
Is it?
Dark Stalker vrs Rogue 6th
Aboleth vrs Bard 7th
Minotaur vrs Ranger 4th
Sprit Naga vrs Cleric 9th

It doesn't take too much to figure it out. They're slightly weaker in general than their counterparts. Fighters and Wizards usually are stronger than these by a bit. when you get to outsiders and dragons, it's a lot of prestige classing into multiple-capacity stuff, as I said before. But....no, can't be true. Gotta be making it up. Sure.

>>13238243
In that case, it's an environmental advantage which would lower the encounter's total CR. It's not a way to balance the monster, though, because even with a -1 penalty his to hit is still higher than almost all the CR1 examples and he's still dealing more damage while having nearly three times the hit points to work with before he dies. That's not even counting how there are three of him and this is supposedly the same thing as fighting a lone lizardman.

>>13238222
The results are fine. I play this game every saturday, and none of this has been a problem yet.

This is something that's always weirder me out, I came onto /tg/ the first time, and everybody was arguing about the game I was playing (the older edition) as though it came to life and raped them in their sleep.
I had never encountered this, it was an entirely alien phenomenon to me, and I was forced to argue with people like you over it, despite your citations being entirely unobservable to my own experience. What do you expect me to think?

>>13238259
I would actually suggest that fighting in the dark would be an environmental advantage that should raise its CR, not lower it, as it is a scenario tailored to make it more effective than it should be given its natural weaknesses.

>>13238248
It was one of the design principles when third edition was first written, it was meant to carry on the same balancing method from AD&D into 3e. You can dig around ancient designer diaries (Monte Cook mostly) if you want to learn more, or just ask people on forums and learn that this is common knowledge. Pathfinder didn't change this, you can search on the Paizo forums for threads related to wizards VS fighters to learn that.

>>13238261
>the results are fine, for me
FTFY.

>>13238261
Maybe stop assuming that no one anywhere ever has a problem because your one single group didn't have a problem for starters? Maybe stop arguing about things you've not experienced for yourself and therefore don't actually understand?

>>13238289
As opposed to the result being poor, for you? Are these at all functionally different statements?

>>13238207
It's a weakness. You've never had players exploit a weakness when they could? Mighty weak players.

>>13238279
That's not how CR is calculated. Try looking up CR rules other than those directly related to monsters.

>>13238294
Maybe you should stop assuming that I ought to have a problem with something just because you have. How many perfectly good Pathfinder threads have I had to endure being called broken houserulings of 3.5?
What purpose do these accusations serve, except to challenge the veracity of my own experiences with something that I enjoy wholesomely, and without complaint? Your hypocrisy is stunning.

>>13238303
Okay, tell me how players are supposed to control the sun and then we'll talk. (No sunrods, sunrods don't work that way.)

>>13238285
Paizo altered them to fit different criteria - if it is combat functional at X level, and is fun to play, then it's good.

The monks are not the best class, but they do just fine when they have a party to work with; most people use monks in a way that is actually not as what their role in the core books is described as. Same with barbarians.

>>13238323
Don't go fight wars at night.
Solved! Where's my cookie?

>>13238321
So all arguments about Pathfinder not working for people are direct personal insults to you? Goddamn, you've got one solipsitic mindset there. Is me encountering a problem in an RPG a personal insult to you? Are people not allowed to discuss or complain just because you didn't run into the issue? Get the fuck out of your own ass.

>>13238331
Okay, now tell me how you're controlling all the orcs and when they decide to attack you.

>>13238339
Sir, when I do not have to endure your personal complaints about my passtime, I shall not bore you with my complaints about yours.

>>13238346
Don't put yourself in a position where you will be attacked by people in the dark.
This is called elementary strategy. Seriously though, cookie. Now.

>>13238323
.........you've never had your players try and draw their enmy out into a place where they are weaker than they could be through planning, trickery or settign up of traps? You've never allowed them to draw their enemy into a position of weakness? Or are they gung-ho hack and slash fuck the plan kinda players?

What's an orcs wisdom and intelligence again? 8 and 7? you saying your players can't trick them into coming out into a disadvantageous position out in the light when they're in a rage and gone all battle ferocity bloodlust mad?

No wonder your players have such a hard time killing your orcs - you made the orcs smarter and tougher than they're written up as.

>>13238348
Oh no someone insulted something you like on the internet, you're so special and unique and it's so unfair to you personally, surely this never happens to anyone else.

>>13238357
And all of those things would lower the encounters CR and are entirely dependent on the DM playing nice and having the orcs be dumb as shit, what the fuck is your point. (No, wis 8 isn't dumb enough for someone who hates and fears sunlight to charge into a battle in sunlight, that's just silly.)

>>13238365
I do not pretend to be the only victim of it, but I actively refrain from telling people that things they like are bad, because that's an entirely subjective judgement that cannot actually serve a purpose beyond offending people.
I am not the problem here. You are the problem here.

>>13238352
The entire game is about going into dark places known as "dungeons" so that you can have "adventures". Maybe you've heard of those. You're seriously claiming that the best way to win is not to play.

Fuck you both

>>13238379
>Wis 8 isn't dumb enough to
I stopped reading there, because I'm confident you don't understand just how dumb Wisdom 8 is. Wisdom 8 means you might not notice the sun rising while watching the sun rise. Wisdom 8 means that you are actually in a deficit of effectiveness when attempting to discern the obvious.

>>13238386
Factual mechanical problems with the game =/=irrelevant problem that can only offend people.

>>13238389
It's almost as though walking into what could only be described as trap-rigged deathtraps filled with enemies in their own element is... Unadvisable.

>>13238386
No, you are the problem here. You're the one who's trying to get people to stop talking about problems they have with a game. You're the one taking complaints personally and discussing things you have no personal experience with. You're the one getting butthurt when people don't like being told to shut up just because you don't like something they said. If you're getting insulted, it's only because you're making yourself a target.

>>13238397
Wis 8 is one point below average.

One. Point.

You're treating one point difference as the difference between a normal person and complete retardation.

>>13238402
Yes, but the inevitable conclusion of this mechanical analysis is to pejoratively label the game as mechanically broken, when it functions fine when not taken in a vacuum. If the result of this mechanical pondering were that the game is not perfect, I would not take issue with it, but given your hostility, and that axe of yours that seems to yearn for grinding (presumably on Monte Cook's neck,) I know already that your analysis is not intended to be neutral, or used for any such beneficent purpose.

>>13238421
One point below average in wisdom, two in intelligence. These are very dramatic lacks in intellectual integrity we're looking at here. Orcs are, frankly, dumb as shit, overconfident in their own (significant, granted) killing abilities, and foolhardy. They are not creatures that plan, particularly not if the opportunity for violence presents itself in a quick and easy manner.

>>13238409
I am not interested in whether or not you are insulting me. What you think of me is meaningless.
What concerns me is the poor faith in which your talks about your "problems with the game" are conducted. There is no suggestion for improvement, or context beyond that which is best framing of these issues in the most negative light possible in any given situation.
You, and here I speak of 'you' in a very general sense, are not simply discussing something, you are accusing it, and everything you say suggests that it is because you still hold a grudge against 3.5, or Monte Cook, or James Jacobs, or whoever it is today that ruined D&D forever.

>>13238451
>>13238421

And considering the caster in the party is supposed to be a night genius with no less than 16 and most likely 18-20, while the bard or sorcs have a 16-20 cha, and the priests will have 16-20 wisdom....you're saying the orcs can't possibly fall for trickery, baiting, and entrapment? I'm sure the players can manage to piss them off and trick and belabor them into doing something incredibly foolish which will let the casters and warriors maximize their destructive capability.

>>13238469
>because you still hold a grudge against 3.5, or Monte Cook, or James Jacobs, or whoever it is today that ruined D&D forever.

You know, I'm not sure I agree with you on the rest, but goddamn this is a good point. I don't know how many times I've seen someone accused of being an asshole spellcaster player for liking 3.5, when a lot of the people who played it and still play it played the classes that supposedly got the shaft in it. There's definitely bad blood there, and to a neophyte I imagine the bile must be bitter indeed.

That said, could you maybe, you know, stop whining? I know you're unhappy that we're arguing, but this is something that people do, and it isn't always because we want to ruin your fun. At this point, the pedantic argument of who's more of a self entitled cocksucker between you and Anon #4058305 over there are growing more stale than this exceedingly boring parallel conversation about orcs.

>>13238469
>There is no suggestion for improvement, or context beyond that which is best framing of these issues in the most negative light possible in any given situation.
He's not saying what to do because most people here already *know* how to fix D&D 3.5 so it's at least somewhat playable in the hands of players who prefer to play the less common archetypes in a class.

You forgot the greatest wizard of them all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWSi64WBy08

Why hasn't this turned into a rap thread yet? I'd start it myself but I can't insult people without feeling bad, man.

Gentlemen. I bring you a story.
Of one man, a bunch of wizards he had to kill and his fucking big hammer.
One of my friends is an alright GM...well, I lie, he's an alright person, most of the time (He used to be alright, but he's become a shit recently), but a shit GM. One day he decided to run a D&D inquisitor game, which was, effectivly 'Hurr Durr so edgy and grim! :)' we were above the law, in a world of dung farming retards and our job was to hunt down wizards and magic users and kill/torture/maim them.
And because my friend lacks all subtlety and GMing ability, every wizard was an innocent, our organization was kitten fucking evil and the tracks were obvious (Such as12 10th level guards in a random hamlet to try and keep us in check.)
This guy also hated me as a player, on a deep and personal level, any chance to take a pop at me and prove he was alpha nerd he'd take. Personally I didn't give a fuck and was there to roll dice and generally enjoy myself, but since we were the same age and everyone else in the group was younger, I was, apparently, a valid challenge to his authority and so 'fuck your character' in the most passive way possible.

>>13237239

HAHA you actually thought that was my real equipment? Ohh man, jeez you're fucking stupid. Also the poison I doused your food with last night should be taking effect shortly, the first symptom is a loss of spellcasting ability, about six hours after exposure to the first dose.

>>13239141
Everyone stats their characters and the GM suggests I take a goliath, while everyone else is human, I'm a bit unsure, but I'm the fighter, so fuck it, let's rock. I take a goliath and the Largest Hammer in the entire book, as a large weapon, huge damage and a hammer the size of a small horse was my tool of choice, I was a barbarian-come body guard come butler for our glorious master, the hammer is a glorious ancient weapon of my forefathers passed down from generation to generation and ect-ect (Basically, it's masterwork).
My dudes name is Biggs, because he is, and while he isn't that smart, or subtle, he is, a very, very good fighter and follows orders to a T, he's basically the ultimate manservant/body guard, since I can pick up my charge and carry them around one handed if I need to protect them.

>>13239162
1st session goes fine, random bandits, I roll a crit and do something crazy like 63 damage, turning one into a fine, bloody mist due to Sexy rolls, GM FREAKS OUT and demands I get rid of the hammer, because he couldn't pull bullshit if I had it, since I could, basically, murder everything, he hides behind 'game balance and to avoid you overshadowing the rest of the party', the rest of the party takes my side and says 'nah, we don't mind' since they know he'll throw us, 3rd level characters, up against fucking dragons if he gets a half decent excuse, just to put us in our place.
I like stories of the underdog, this guy, he liked to take the underdog and kick it in the balls a few times to make sure it was Really under.
Anyway, a bunch of hassal and fucking about later, he's basically forced by the chance of a revolution on his hands to let me keep my hammer (Now named the 'Big Iron' by the group.)
We reach a town, and suddenly, out the left field, the GM mentions how everyone in the entire country is a racist, I'm, basically a sub-human slave and not allowed weapons.

>>13239167
Never before mentioned in canon, or the background he gave us for the game.
Guards come and demand my weapon. My inquisitor backs me up, flashes her badge and tells them to fuck off, they argue a bit (Grounds for Exectuion for HERESY! but the GM is metagaming to get me and my hammer by now. So the guards are basically a voice peice for him.)
We go into the bar, where, for asking for a table, my character is nearly lynched...when I offer gold for someone to give us their seats, someone almost initates combat against me, because how fucking dare I ask for seats.
My solution to this, collapsable chair and a table I had in my backpack, GM rages when he realizes he can't force me into a 1920s style race lynching over a chair, I trollface.
Moving on a day, we found a wizard and burned down a barn, one of the PCs who joins us is a smart ass and bad mouths the inquisitor and caused the barn burning.
Not a single person blinks when the priest is released after being proven a murderer and arsonist, basically the GM lets them get away with it because 'so dark and edgy, you can do whatever you like because you're above the law'

>>13239177
This guy is being a twat to my master, so on the way out of town, I decide to take initiative and give him a broken nose, the Player and I talk, he doesn't mind, he agrees it's IC and will make for an interesting moment. we roll, he gets knocked over by a huge fist and realizes that, even if he doesn't respect her, he's going to have to be polite to my master because I have really big fists.
Suddenly, fucking 6 crossbow bolts from no where pierce my chest, doing crazy damage (One did 19...that's not even possible by the rules unless they're using some sort of 'fuck you' magic crossbow.) and 12 guards (In a hamlet of 3 houses and an inn) rush up and demand my head.
For hitting someone. When we were out of sight of the town...and theyshot me from something like 200 meters away.
Man fucking what?

>>13239180
When our priest and this guy burned down a Barn and killed at least 6 people.
And I'm a member of the motherfucking inquisition.
My inquisitor gets me out of it, since the entire group now knows it's bullshit.
We move on, this sort of passive agressive shit continues for a while, before me and 2 friends, the priest and the inquisitor, decide that the game is way too bland and we should spice it up with some character interaction and maybe a little conflict.
My friend, who's the sort of dude who plays paladins right, suggests we start a revolution, the inquisitor girl says 'right, forbidden love side quest with Biggs, and you and I can have a debating thing oing on, since your dude is cynical and my girl needs breaking out the idealism a little bit'; we decide against revolution on the grounds of 'don't want to ruin the game', but put it on the backburner as a possible response to more bullshit.
GM throws Biggs curveballs continuously, which I solve through a mix of applying my hammer, applying my backpack of bultering and generally being smarter than that fucker.

>>13239184
Game continues, Biggs and his charge get closer through several incidents, GM continues trying to kill me/ruin my hammer (By which point the hammer had taken on some symbolic role of 'Fuck the GM's bullshit'), all the while coming up with 'clever' new ways to try and get me weakened, like 'random encounter' ghouls jumping me for level and, permanant, XP drain and making the party feel like shit.
We continue onwards and Biggs and his hammer meet several wizards, who all live very short lives after meeting him, or convert and join us, including one Proto-BBEG who was something like 13th level.
What happened with the Proto-BBEG was that he appeared, at random, in a bunch of ruins we were in, tried to grab some 'stone tablet' and run off. I move in the way on my masters orders since guys running about arcane ruins are slightly suspect, he uses...I'm not even sure what the spell was, but it was basically a 'fuck your hammer' spell, to break my hammer...
He goes to move past me, I declare, with my gauntlets (Which the GM didn't know counted as a weapon) a sundering attack on the tablet, smash it, then grab the guy, or try to, then when he tries to fly off, I managed to nail him to a wall using a Javlin.]
One of the other PCs repairs my hammer. We continue onwwards down the railroad. GM now fuming with fury at me and my hammer of Wizard-jam making since he keeps sending homing BBEGs against me, who will attack only me, and I keep surviving, and each time he tries to damage my hammer, he rolls shit (He tried to fudge it but the Priest demanded he roll out in the open).

>>13239194
Eventually, things come to a head when the GM brings in a GMPC Inquisitor, to parade how GRIM AN GRITTY the world is, who we find looking for a witch in a little village in the ass end of no where. Now my dude gets bored and him and his inquisitor wander off into the forest because...well, off for sex time really (At this point, he feels nothing for her and she basically orders him to bone her, since, professionalism out the ass is his watch word)
We sneak off, and the GM (Who still hasn't realized what's going on between the two PCs since we do development in another window an he's oblivious to anything but his own plot.) has us run into a girl, who is basically a bargin bin version of Schierke from Berserk and all 'Lala, flowers, trees, wow, you're huge mister...can we be friends?'
Now it's never come up in the game before, but my dude had a little sister who he misses like hell, and this tiny child reminds him of her in a...well, abstract, not a goliath sort of way, and the GM really pushes on the friendship for them, she invites us to her house, ect-ect, we have a good time and, you know, finally! A NPC who isn't a raging dick or specifically made to fuck me over I think.
Oh irony.

>>13239201
Mr UBER INQUISITOR! asks for our help in finding the witch for 'questioning'; which is obviously inquisitor speak for rape, beatings, torture and burning.
My character and the inquisitor go in earch of the vile heretic; and 2 sessions later, Der Inqvisitor brings in a certain little girl on a chain, into the village centre, he found her first, and it's our friend! Oh what a clever twist!
Fucking GM.
He basically says to our Inquisitor 'Thanks for the help, going to make her admit it, then we'll burn her' the locals all gather around, and realize that the witch is well...ad prepare for a stoning, since WITCH! WITCH!
My character is standing right next to his inquisitor, and wants to help the girl...
But he won't, because of duty.
Our inquisitor is unsure...but if it's for the greater good of the nation...
Then the little girl, beaten, bloodied, afraid, stripped down and wearing only rags since they burned her get up since it was HERESY! says something, just one word that blows all the GMs shitty little snips out the water on the scale of 'I'm so fucking with you now'.
'Help.'

>>13239220
GM obviously means this as a dramatic 'You can't do shit or you'll die! Ha! Look how dark and grizzly it all is! See how you can’t do a damn thing, lololololololol!' moment.
Now I’m a bit of a moralfag, the GM knows this…he knows I’m going to intervene…because damnit, it might be a non-existent little girl, but this stands for something, I’m a paladin at heart and I won’t let her slip into the dark without fighting and I am fucking sick of the GMs bullshit.
My characters reaction.
" I do this of my own will, the others are not involved."
For a standard of that, he didn’t ask permission, he didn’t. care it would cause problems, he didn’t ask for her to let him, it is the first thing he has chosen to do for himself, off his own bat the entire game.
Our Inquisitor finally loses her rose tinted specs and realizes how fucked up this is.
She doesn't answer...but I did it anyway.

>>13239230
One quick Draw, a surprise round and one, very, very lucky double critical later with a called shot...The Inquisitor infront of us has no arm, he would be dead, but GM fiat saves him, he would have 'dodged with grace' but the group called bullshit.
My character grabs the chain, hoiks the girl up onto his shoulders, I declare her the new target of, several, feat buffs I had for my 'master' as part of the bodyguard thing and bull charge through the crowd, to escape with her. Obviously I've gone rouge.
The Mob gives chase, as does the apparently uninterested in his SEVERED ARM, GMPC inquisitor, his retinue and my own.
The chase is against me and the girl, but I have enchanced speed and enough Con to go for a week without stopping, plus my character was Prepared, food, water, a tent, EVERYTHING, I even had fucking tea, it was my bulter kit and I was prepared for any situation. The merry chase goes badly for me as the NPCs seem to be part homing pidgeon, or blood hound or something because they all seem to be getting above 27 on their tracking rolls, despite being 1st level dirt farmers and always find me.

itt; "some guy wrote a book once where one thing was more powerful than a different thing. u must b butthurt'd"

>>13239235
The entire thing comes to a head when I get the girl back to her cottage and hold up in it. Biggs is Chaotic evil, but he'll be damned if he'll let someone rape, torture and murder a little girl for nothing, even he has standards.
The lynch mob surrounds the house. The inquisitor starts firing them up and arming them, someone sets the house on fire, trying to smoke us out.
No dice bitch, I got a fireproof cloak and you said this place has a basement.
The GM is holding back the other PCs from the scene using Loltracking checks, to avoid them saving my ass.
We ride out the night under the roaring inferno.
Now you think seeing the entire place burn down would satisfy them, right? Assume I'm dead, move on.
Nope, they Know I'm still not dead.
Eventually, they find the basement. Well, Mr Inquisitor does. As they open the hatch, I declare a charge on them, I had an all night readied action for this and had it written down on paper.
I charge him. And hit for massive damage.
GM says he's fine, we duke it out. I take a hell of a lot of damage, but fuck it, I have cleave so I keep hitting mooks, then swinging through onto him to keep them at bay. Eventually, I use rage and tear him a new one, for a whopping 90 damage.
Meanwhile, one of my friends is writing something down in another window, a bunch of numbers.

>>13239241
The GM 'lol, he's fine due to being level 15 (I was, meanwhile, a 5th level character.)'
Now this guy who talks now, he's our local maths man, he doesn't talk much and is a bit bland, but he's a bro.
He pipes up and says 'He should be dead then'
GM "What?"
'It's statistically impossible for a 15h level inquisitor to have this much health. That attack would have killed him, look *Shows everyone, he's beek keeping track of damage, the magnificent bastard*'
GM: ...it's ma-
Priest: 'He's a radical inquisitor, he wouldn't use magic, bullshit, he's down.'
GM: '...he falls over, his retinue go to save hi-'
Me: 'Attack of oppotunity on them if they move into his space to pick him up, and for my next turn, whirlwind attack'
GM: ...roll
*Hit-hit-hit-hit-Something like every attack hit, I killed the 20 or so people swarming me, the other players removing them from the board for the GM*
Me: ...how much XP do I get?
GM: ...what?
Me: I killed a high level character, and several other high level ones. How much XP?
Massive shit eater on my face, he might be fucking with me...but he has to stick to the rules while doing it.

>>13239251
There must be more! MOOAAAAR!!!

>>13239251
GM: ...what?
Me: I killed a high level character, and several other high level ones. How much XP?
GM: The others were just moo-
Maths man: Right...by their BAB and HP...they were about...12th level...each, and the peasants were 5th. You should gain XXX XP.
Me: Right, I level up from that 6 times.
GM: You can only level up on-
Priest: Actually, you houseruled that.(Ironically, to use on a BBEG, who levelled up to try and murder the priest…)
Me: *Writing out already, I restat myself, take some levels in a few classes to save my ass from mobs...to be exact…pure levels in Paladin of freedom, change my Alignment to Chaotic Good, because hey, I’m now fighting the evil establishment, I’ve got to be respectable to be a freedom fighter right?*
*One huge fight later, in which the PCs arrive and move through the battle to join me. I’m on something like 10 HP when the priest heals me back up to full, the only reason I survived this long was my own, new, shiney Lay on hands.*
GM: Right! A crossbow bolt hits you in the head, you die.
Me: How much damage?
GM: None, you fucking die, you should be dead by now. You're flanging it. *Everyone stares...he bends in, rolls a few dice* 50 damage. You're dead.
Maths man: Actually, he's go-
GM: I don't care, he's bullshitting, that hammer was bullshit, so is this.
Priest: Oh the irony.

>>13239290
Maths man: You can’t do that
GM: I can, I’m GM, rule Zero i-
Ranger: I take the hit for him.
Everyone: ...what?
(The ranger dude, hell of a guy, a bit of a WoW addict and sometimes can be a bit of a powergamer and doesn't act for anyone else, only out of self interest.)
GM: You can't, h-
Priest: You take the arrow for him valiently, you feel it sink into your skin, but it doesn't kill you, the battle field judders to a halt and you realize that the mob is fleeing into the treeline.
GM: ...wha-
Priest: *Rolls a few dice* Mass cure medium wounds, everyone reagain *X* HP, you also level from that fight, twice.
My character turns to the inquisitor 'Is this really the world we wish to stand for..?'
Another window appears, the Inquisitor and the Priest, it turns out, have been talking.
They send me one word.
Revolution.
Old GM: You can't do thi-*Kicked from chat*

>>13239297
Priest: Ladies and Gentlemen, this is your new GM, and leader of the glorious Big Iron freedom fighters revolution, we have taken control of this train of a game and are currently in the process of derailing it, please remain clam and don’t invite the old conductor back into the chat. We are finding some diamonds amongst the shit of this game, so help me god.
Maths man: Viva, La Revolution.
And so the game turned into a game of dark and bloody hope, and Raw, raw fight the powah. We never let the old GM GM again and the entire group gave him a huge bellowing at on bullshit and, eventually, my PC ended up becoming the leader of the revolution, adopting the little girl (Inquisitor murdered her mother while we wern't watching under the old GM.) and married his inquisitor.
My hammer became the symbol of the revolution.
I took my hammer to the entirety of the country.

And that my friends, is the story of a Barbarian, who not only beat the wizards, but the GM.

The moral is, Wizards might be pretty awesome, but give a guy a big enough hammer and he can break the entire game.

>the other players removing them from the board for the GM
>Kicked from chat

So, was this IRL or on IRC or what's going on here?

>>13239312
Oh, you magnificent bastard.
You have earned one of today's Festive Hats.
Enjoy Your Festive Hat.

Modern master race here, your magic is obsolete and can't compete with my SCIENCE!!!

>>13239312
Yeah, that's some great fiction right there.

You did literally none of that, and don't pretend like you did either. If you did, someone would have taken a screenshot.

>>13239357
Postmodern Master Race reporting in. Your Science cannot compete with my geopolitical manipulations.

>>13239370
I, for one, am willing to accept it blindly as fact because the alternative is siding with you.
And... You know. You're a gay. So forget that.

>>13239392
there's no need to go ad hominem.

>>13239380
>Implying a postmodern world doesn't need science.

>>13239427
I felt the thread was lacking in unqualified pejorative commentary.

>>13239435
If you're willing to imply that the modern world doesn't teem with magic today, then I'll imply something equally preposterous about tomorrow.

Magic is everywhere, it is the sense of wonder the permeates and defines the world we live in. When it dies, science-true science-will die with it. But politics, that activity will persist until the sun goes out and the last sentient creature perishes in the heat death of the universe.

>>13239328
Over MSN. We basically all blocked him and started a new chat.
Biggs was grand, he was pretty much Guts, with a hammer.
At one point the dick GM set us up against demons, at 4th level. In a game where +1 weapons are HERESY!
His goal was 'Incredibly hard fight with loads of dead PCs, have them run.'
Biggs answer: I do so much damage that DR is nothing half the time. HAMMER TIME.
With back up from the priest, I effectively Guts vs Apostled them.

>>13239241
Why would a chaotic evil character be all about loyalty, professionalism, and service?

>>13239370
Don't be a dick.

It appears to be IRC or a program that allows players to move pieces, tokens, etc, looks legit to me. Either way, cool story.

>>13239370
Eh, it probably won't convince you, but here's a quick print screen of his old character sheet (At 3rd level, which we started at.)
I would go back through my logs and printscreeen the convo, but it's on my old computer and I'm on my laptop.
Your choice to belive me or not.

>>13239370
>implying that awesome shit can't happen in games
Fuck you, man.

>>13239556
Because they let me kill whoever I want without answering to jack shit half the time.I was for no one but myself and people I liked.
She was my master, thus I listento her, I wasn't pro-inquisition, I was Pro-one-inquisitor and the Glorious God-King (GM Rip off og the God-Emperor who helped man throw of the shackles of Wizard kind, I remade the entire religion for my personal tribe as instead of being a great leader of men and slayer of Wizards, he wrestled a Shape-shifted Druid-turned-direbear to death, fucked his wife and then rode off into the sunset, and could turn into a bear himself after eating the heart of the bear-king. Oh and intergrated the Druids into our tribe.
So my god was the Glorious God-King-Bear, and my character belives he was part bear.
Later in the game, I took a level in bear warrior, or whatever that shapeshifting bear themed prestige class is...and could infact turn into a bear. That shit was awesome in silly ways.)

>>13239312

Priest: Ladies and Gentlemen, this is your new GM, and leader of the glorious Big Iron freedom fighters revolution, we have taken control of this train of a game and are currently in the process of derailing it, please remain clam and don’t invite the old conductor back into the chat.

>>13239290
>GM: I don't care, he's bullshitting, that hammer was bullshit, so is this.
>Priest: Oh the irony.

Priest Dude is awesome.
Seriously awesome.

>>13239556
Because he's a Bard. Makes a good image.

Cleric > Wizard

This story needs a printscreen, it's brilliant.

Bwhaha, awesome

Biggs Iron, I am totally making your hammer a legendary item in my current game.
Also, I would be honoured to stand by a Paladin such as you, going for a total turn from CE to CG was a hell of a turn for the character.
Also, Maths dude is a bro, I wish our local rules Lawyer was such a force for awesome.

>>13239751
Wizard makes himself god, ordains himself high priest of himself, becomes wizard/cleric gestalt.

Bump for holyfuck awesome beating of a shit GM.

>>13240175
But what if he loses favor with himself? Wouldn't he lose all his cleric powers that he bestowed himself with?

Gentlemen all of us can work together and be just fine. I started out as a militaman when a village near mine was attacked and became a real fighter during a short ship travel. All the while i kept learning about the spellbook that I used to read in during my childhood of working for a wizard.

Now I am an Eldritch Knight. Some people insult me and seem jealous. They say, "Hey Max, how NICE that you have the weapon skill of a fighter and the magic of a wizard."

I say: "Golly, I can only train myself to be a bit tougher than a mage and not nearly as much as a fighter (6hp per level), I can't learn as much about magic as a wizard (first level of EKgrants no magic levels and no extra spells) and I gotta split my time for either working out or practicing magics. (No extra feats like a fighter, no free magical extra feats per 5th level like a wizard.)

Gee, Some people seem to think i got ALL of the good things of the two sides with none of the work. They also ignore that i have to work near double as hard to get both things that aren't as good as a specialists one thing.

I made my choice and don't regret it, but appearantly some other people i met do.

Printscreen that story ASAP, I believe it, but even if it was fiction, 10/10, fucking awesome.