"Senatus Populusque Romanus"
They use the old Roman agrarian system of latifundia, and combine their version of Roman culture with the Catholic religion and use Red Scare tactics to convert unsuspecting villages to their cause.

>>13470924

"The Union Makes Us Strong"
Having sprungup in the MidWest, where labor and agriculture existed side-by-side and have a strong history of organization, they combine Northern style American patriotic imagery with union and grange movement ideals and slogans. They are more likely to belt out "There Is Power In A Union" and "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" than the Internationale. They have a craft-guild technocracy (with guilds organized into levels of rank based on seniority and skill, rather than a general elected committee) in the cities and a cooperative commonwealth system (within the context of private property, tied to families and communities rather than the principles of highly individualistic commerce) in the farmlands. Where there is common property, society is highly divided through hierarchical trade guilds to ensure competition and meritocracy; where there is private property, society is highly unified through one broad class-based union/grange (the Fraternity farmer-labor union) to ensure solidarity and mutual aid.

"With God Our Vindicator"
The plantation system of paternalistic manorialism rather than feudalistic vassalage is used here. They heavily rely on conscripted and hereditary indentured labor and try to minimalize social mobility.

"We Are Free Men Though We Are Poor"
The flies in the Plantation League's ointment, those who rebel against being forcibly rolled up into indentured labor, having their town land appropriated by a country squire and themselves reduced to sharecroppers, and against the authority of the League in general. The Freemen function like an agrarian democracy in the Jeffersonian model, a yeomen's republic of small-plot farmers that keeps skilled trades and scholarly knowledge alive with volunteer libraries, universities, and a well-functioning postal system.

???
Feudalists

"Crece A Medida Que Se Va"
The new pueblo system is working nicely.

"Strength In Our Limbs"
Most large, expanding cultures are agrarian - focusing on intensive agriculture that can support a leader class, town tradesmen, and commercial city or to. The Nomads are a large culture of pastoralists, who practice herding and mixed farming which can be done in shorter periods on worst land than intensive farming. They were formed by the hardy survivors fleeing the East Coast megacity death-traps, rolling up upstate New York, Pennsylvanian, and New Jersey farmers with them as they mass migrated. They share an interesting blend of cultures, combining folk tales and naming each clan after such (ex: "Clan Fianna", "Clan Maccabee", "Clan Petro Loa", etc.)

"Remember The Alamo"
Texas fuck yeah

yeah, sticking by my "will work with whoever is preserving knowledge until i acquire a mild sickness that eventually kills me due to the unavailability of "high tech" meds"

and as for the way things happened...
"Its like dealing with the world's most narrowminded GM who is trying to put the party through an unpassable puzzle. Every answer "well, if all electrical devices are destroyed, we will make more" is countered with an on-the-stop cover "yeah, electricity does not even Exist like that any more" which prompts more workaround "well, steam power could.." and more response "nope, compressed gas cannot perform work any more. or magnets either.. gosh, why are you guys not solving this?"

and then the DMPC wiccans ride in to save the day and everyone facepalms."

my least favorite apocalypse scenario. because it seems dumb.

"For The Horde"
Nazi vikings from the North

The richest communities would move to locations where they have fuel for burning and a major river to utilize as a power source. Compressed air and steam power would be used for applications where the watermills aren't viable.

It's important to know what does and does not work first.

If wood still burns, you can do a FUCKLOAD of technology. We could still get blimps, make explosive crossbow rounds, etc.

Don't need to put up with some faggy roman farmers or mobs of peasants when you fly over them and burn the fuck out of their caveman luddite asses.

>>13471041 wiccans

I think pretty much everyone on /tg/ would be quite happy to forget any mention of wiccans for this improved version.

I'm creating a knowledge hoarding society of re-enactors (got tons of em) with trained militia armies in the style of the late medieval Swiss over in the UK (fuck yeah pikes, halberds and a whole lot of stubbornness), so you'll have to get a boat. Bring salted fish. ]
Also on an unrelated note, is the Nutopia project still going? I've not been able to check in in months.

i shall revive the old traditions and way of life.

raidan, traidan, and hot girl kidnappan.

>phaelor flame
hmm.

I don't know why people really have a problem with the idea of technology not working.

You know when your tv remote doesn't work for some reason. Or none of those 30 matches could get the fucking barbecue to light despite you rinsing it in lighter fluid. That's what's happened.

It's magic end of.

Physics hasn't changed. Gravity is the same. Electricity still causes lighting storms. Gunpowder should still theoretically explode. But the moment you try and use any of that stuff for a non-medieval technology, it just won't work.

Your hot air baloons, won't fly, your steam turbines won't turn. Why. Because the Godss said fuck you. And they're Gods. They can do that.

The change is about what would happen, with modern thought morals and experience, were you thrown into the past or something like it and the political and social systems that could occur given the scantiest of resources.

It's about is democracy and humanitarianism workable given the lack of anything approaching infrastructure or does autocratism present better chances for survival as a society.

It's not how fast can we work around the infinite power of the Gods to close of loopholes.

>>13471152
>Nutopia project
major stalls clunking up the place when it is impossible to get enough people together about anything, much less play a game together.
current plans call for NU to exist as an EP modification/setting.. if only we could figure out exactly how.

"Order from Gods Fire"
The followers of The True Kingdom believe that they are chosen by God to bring about a new Eden. Led by a small Theocracy that orders all its followers to burn away (or steal) any remnants of the old world that do no fit the "Divine Plan".
Based in mountainous areas (to be "close to His Word") TTK specializes in metallurgy and weapon-making. But technological progress is slowed by the strict Theocracy
While deeply corrupt and violent the TTK are rapidly coming to odds with the Romans over borders and beliefs.

>>13471202
Hot air balloons still work, but firearms don't.

>>13471296

You utterly miss the point.

>>13471334
I was clarifying some points, not refuting any.

>>13471363

Well that's fine then.

What'd be the best way to get a fort up? I know they're heavily dependent on what is available, and frankly any settlement that lasts is going to have to expand from it; with urban areas being deathtraps in any apocalypse situation, and rural areas not really being great at being enclosed for defense, a good stronghold would be bloody handy for survival and asserting authority.

But its hard to come across good stone masons, the quarrys needed wont be there and many forests would really be unsuitable for building much more than the occasional log cabin due to lacking the specifically maintained trees needed for good large beams and planks.

Considering the limited resources of the area where I live I would have join the part-time hunter/pirate/fisher community on the coast as the shipbuilding seems the only tech job available.

Too bad that the design of this scenario effectively prevents any kind of universities from forming even though they existed during Middle Ages. When people notice that God is genuinely stopping new inventions from ever working they will soon lose interest in anything mental that isn't just for entertainment. Societies forming would be incredibly nihilistic as there is no hope of better future.

"GUNPOWDER STILL EXPLODES BUT GUNS DON'T WORK" is retarded. Render gun powder inert or it makes zero sense, gods or no gods.

Even still, there's nothing to stop people from making spring-powered dart guns or zip guns.

Firearms don't rely on 'magic' or even a lot of science.

FUNDAMENTALS DON'T WORK = retarded. Like saying metal can't get sharp in your setting so no one can use knives.

l2n make settings.

Rather than say "x doesn't work", just say "there is no x here, but if you got your hands on some, it WOULD work". This way no one gets bogged down arguing your lack of sensible mechanics and instead will dream about stumbling over one.

>>13471566
It doesn't explode. It still burns, but slowly. It's described as a change in the ideal gas law that prevents pressure buildup or rapid release of energy from gas.

>>13471539
Concrete or cement, but it's still a pain. In a pinch, a palisade wall or earthworks would suffice -- primitive is better than none at all.

>>13471548

I think universities would still be very useful, if only to keep people trained in things maths for architecture and logistics, and particularly researching survival guides, history books, diy manuals and basically anything that would help people relearn and keep learning how to make things without having to rely on a few generations of trail and error.

Theres books out there on all sorts of useful things and its very likely a lot of the people who still maintain otherwise forgotten skills like weaving by hand, butchering or hell even cooking with fire will be caught up and die along with a lot of others. Its why the re-enactors and other types (in first world countries at least where many such things are simply hobbies) turn up as a potential force, its a whole lot of people who outside of hitting each other tend to have a surprising amount of knowledge and ability in making stuff, often without even power tools, that suddenly becomes very useful again rather than simply a hobby.

And getting that knowledge out to as many people as possible (unless trying to keep it controlled for the sake of controlling the supply of information) is probably best achieved by teaching people in universities and having large numbers study, experiment and so on to find out just what can be done.

>>13471566

That is retarded. Combustion machines not working is a nice, elegant conceit - like "magic exists" or "ghosts are real".

Don't put your eccentric aspie limitations on the entire body of roleplaying and fiction in general.

Anyone who thinks this is a valid setting has no understanding of rudimentary physics.

We would die if gas pressure didn't work as it does in combustion simply from our own internal gasses and humors. Fuck your handwavium shit.

Either explain it or nix it.

>>13472035
>combustion not working
>elegant
>like magic

You are the aspergers.

>>13472035

You realize that COMBUSTION AND BURNING ARE THE SAME FUCKING THING, RIGHT?

If wood and coal burn and gunpowder still explodes, WE HAVE COMBUSTION.

If there is fire, there is guns. And if for some reason there is a Magical God who frowns upon guns and makes them not work but is allowing the existence of fire, what kind of fucking retarded god is this?

This setting is for autistic cunts.

>>13472491
The engineer of the book goes through this. FAST combustion doesn't work. Things still burn, nothing explodes. Pressures don't build up past a certain point. Certain kinds of electrical conduction don't work. It's a very specifically targeted effect. He wracks his brain over how this can be achieved and constantly curses the DAMNED GIANT SPACE BATS!
Plus, it made for a good story.

I'm with the Bearkillers. The whole series went down the drain after Lord Bear's awesome final battle.

>>13471788
There is a limit for the knowledge you actually need when the progress is artificially limited. Building wooden houses for few people isn't hard and neither is planning irrigation ditches.
After a while people would reach the end of information where every possible solution would have been tested and working answers would have been printed on easy to read guide books. No one would have to know why things work like they do, they would just have to follow instructions.

First few decades people would probe loopholes to know the rules of their new statical world, after that the thirst for knowledge would settle down. All education would be just about learning the procedures that are proven to work knowing that those solutions are the only ones available. Math would probably survive as a hobby but the practical uses for it would be minimal.

>>13472632
>Math would probably survive as a hobby but the practical uses for it would be minimal.
Siege weaponry was here. I need lots of numbers run on the spot to be accurate.

>>13472491

Can't accept a simple, one line fantastic conceit - one no more nonsensical than "magic", "aliens", "faeries", etc.

Calls us autistic..

idontthinksotim.jpg

>>13471788
There is a limit for the knowledge you actually need when the progress is artificially limited. Building wooden houses for few people isn't hard and neither is planning irrigation ditches.
After a while people would reach the end of information where every possible solution would have been tested and working answers would have been printed on easy to read guide books. No one would have to know why things work like they do, they would just have to follow instructions.

First few decades people would probe loopholes to know the rules of their new statical world, after that the thirst for knowledge would settle down. All education would be just about learning the procedures that are proven to work knowing that those solutions are the only ones available. Math would probably survive as a hobby but the practical uses for it would be minimal. People have built stuff needed for everyday living for thousands of years without the aid of engineers so they would manage to do that again.

The static world would take the ability to work for better tomorrow from the people. After the limits of technological progress would have been reached there would be no reason to think big anymore.

Bump for the yesterday crowd, who should be rolling in around this time.

WHERE IS MY MIDWEST RESISTANCE GROUP!

bump

Cult Mechanicus

Like the Church Universal and Triumphant, the Cult Mechanicus believes the Change was a punishment brought about by mankind's use of technology. However, unlike the CUT, the Cult believes the cause was a lack of reverence towards machines. Initially a small group of individuals, the Cult now counts members in the thousands spread across the world. The Cult believes that pre-Change technology will be restored if a proper respect of technology is instilled in humanity.

As i was saying last night the there will be places in the Mid-west that wont accept the commies rule willingly Indiana,there will be stubborn and armed resistance!

>>13470995

>Red Eye on Black

These seem like pretty chill dudes and not, ya know, rapists and murderers and evil villains.

>>13473655

They'll probably either be too small and unaffiliated to make a large faction of their own or will be converted by Nord, Romulan, or PPA agitators.

>>13472460
Just read the fucking book.

Coal still burns, you say?

Repeating hand-crossbow fights on trains.

>>13473759
You commie swine it won't be just that one place I was putting a spotlight on where i live but in other like New Rome they will have similar problems these people who don't wish to summit to above factions need a voice. A generally sang term for groups who don't want to do what the big boys,beside anarchists. And doing well at it.

How about Teabaggers

>>13473906

>Repeating hand-crossbow fights on trains.
>Trains

NO YOU CAN'T DO THAT THAT REQUIRES STEAM WHICH REQUIRES USING GAS UNDER PRESSURE AND YOU CAN'T HAVE THAT NOPE THAT'S TECHNOLOGY

nofun.jpg

>>13473906
>>13473983

>>13471632
>It's described as a change in the ideal gas law that prevents pressure buildup or rapid release of energy from gas.

>>13472491
Goddammit. It's said fairly early goddamn on that "Aliens did it". They did it to be wankers, but they did it.

They also somehow transferred Nantucket to the past so that hippie environmentalists can get raped by jaguars, but that's another story.

>>13473995
>It's described as a change in the ideal gas law that prevents pressure buildup or rapid release of energy from gas.
Life would end. Fast.
Fantasy and soft sci-fi authors should never explain anything. It is so much worse to watch them molest science than to just have them say 'here is how things are, I ain't 'splainin' shit'.

>>13473684
hey, they kinda stop being villains once the main guy died off. It's kinda heavily hinted that once the chosen one finally marries his one-true love they'll move the PPA into a less stratified system.

>>13474006
Speaking of wasn't there a plan to get back at those asshats.

>>13474026
you don't get it. It's not a natural, explicable change. It's a deliberate and obviously artificial change that allows normal expansion up to a certain point, then swiftly robs it of force past that point.

>>13474006

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S._M._Stirling#The_Emberverse_series
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sword_of_the_Lady

By aliens, you mean gods. Gods who kill 95% of humanity since they think that's a good way to save it.
Gods who bestow magic swords.

Celtic gods.

>>13474034
dunno, haven't read the new shit (everything after Meeting at Corvallis). I'll probably go buy them from webscriptions pretty soon.

For some reason I like the idea of combining the Stirling's Change with Brin's Practice Effect. The fundamentals no longer apply to man-made explosives and electrical systems...and that includes the second law. So, for the machines that The Change still permits to exist...the more work you put into them, the more work you get out of them.

Hit people over the head with your favorite stick long enough and the stick becomes a kick-ass war club.

>>13474058

No in the last thread there was.

>>13473983
There are repeating bolt weapons, but driven by muscle or water power rather than steam.

>>13474026
It sort of is like that, as it is described in-universe by an engineer with limited equipment. Perhaps I should have described it as a character's guess rather than give the impression that it was word of god.

>>13474049
damn. wow.

I much prefer his Draka series. That was some straight legit alternate history work.

>>13474094

My comment was about the train, not the weapon.
You cannot have a shootout on the top of a speeding train, as that would involve technology, and the gods in this setting have a hardon for preventing humanity from having any decent tools to work with that would allow them to advance once more.

>>13474111
wait, so how the fuck did Nantucket end up over in the past then? And why do THOSE fuckers get to use all the technology they want?

>>13474132

Because FUCK COHERENCY, that's why.

Also, Neopaganism. Why? No fucking clue.

Why TG are talking about a derp authors bad plot devices instead of the stuff we came up with in the last thread and trying to improve and add on to it.

>>13474249

You good we need more of,loves the flags by the way.

>Gods... I hate Wiccans. My grandfather hated them too, even before they tried to get into the chaplain corps.
>Do you think I'd be out here on the frontier if I felt otherwise?
>Yes, Rome needs a strong frontier.
>No, Rome doesn't need unwashed hippies clamoring at her gates. That's why I'm here. To bring Roman order, to stinking San Francisco. Revenge? That'd >be good too.

>This war with the hippies won't take long, and when it's over, I've got plans. The Santa Cruzians. The Reddingites! The Freznans and the San Joseans >too, and then... To Los Angeles. To New Rome.

>After all. The man who controls Rome... Controls the world.

VENI

>>13474108 I much prefer his Draka series. That was some straight legit alternate history work.

For me that series has the same problem; he just can't come up with a plausible setup for the story he wants to tell.

The whole backstory of the Draka is fucking ridiculous - a tiny British outpost in Africa somehow develops a completely unique culture overnight then technologically advances at a completely insane rate and takes over the world. Despite 95% of them being uneducated slaves who couldn't invent shit. And slave-owning cultures being historically the most technologically stagnant.

You see this men this is the symbol of evil hate it !

>>13474351
The romans in the last thread brought a lot to the table, but they're looking a bit underdeveloped now. Do you suppose they're running slave-plantations like the real Rome did? Because that'd probably result in the same economic/cultural problems it did historically.

Looking at the maps in the other thread, one must wonder how the Romans, and the Eye of Sauron are even aware of the communists in the east. I guess with the highway system already in place, getting from one place to another would be pretty easy (comparatively) once you got around the cars, so word might've reached the other lands eventually.

>>13474411
I think it's safe to call the Draka Mary Sues. I don't recall them losing even a single battle on page.

Unless they stick to you work your you pay your taxes you keep what you work and you are free to do want you as long as you obey the law. No real need for slaves.

Enjoy your minor rebels against evil overlords and your minor reactionaries against the people's union!

>>13474472
I doubt genuine slavery could ever occur, but something more like serfdom, with prominant citizens owning parceled out farmland from the fertile regions of California (initially) and then conquered regions.
Historically, this basically let you conquer something, and then immediately settle it with the soldiers you took it with. It may or may not work here, too. Slavery actually dispossessed many soldiers of their farmlands and resulted in rebellions as the labor was taken up by unpaid slaves, so nixing it might actually make the system more profitable and sustainable, rather than less.

Slavery was, ultimately, just a way to give the citizenry a more visually pleasing spoil of war than the rest of the quasi-crap you bring back form Gaul. It wasn't that profitable outside of salt mining.

I would pay good money to see the MacKenzies strung up. I guess I'll have to settle for them going up on crosses. Hail Rome. I guess. Kind of a presbyterian, so I doubt I'm welcome there, but I'll watch the executions.

>>13474411
The idea was that, like America, they mostly prospered through immigration. At first just unconsciously, but later on they deliberately encourage the leading lights of Western society to come over. And then once they become a superpower, the pressure from America forces them to continue to progress technologically. Stirling actually mentions this expressly in Stone Dogs, that without external enemies, the Draka would tend to stagnate.

>>13474565
Yeah, now that I think about it, that's true, they really should have had a Vietnam analogue at some point. Although I guess their failure to take over Great Britain sorta counts.

>>13474634
lolwut????

Slavery was HUGELY profitable. The reason the legion was such a draw for people was because of the large slave plantations that the patrician class fostered, slowly pushing out the "free" common romans. It's one of the reasons for the death of the republic actually.

>>13474565
>>13474411
>>13474108

The Draka novels postulate a dystopian slave-holding militaristic (white) African empire founded by British Loyalists who escaped to South Africa after the American Revolution rather than to Canada (as in our history). They were later joined by French Royalist émigrés, Icelandic refugees, and demobbed veterans of the Napoleonic Wars, then by tens of thousands of defeated Confederates after the American Civil War. Stirling provides a timeline for its historical development through the 19th and 20th centuries, first as the Crown Colony of Drakia (for Francis Drake), gradually breaking away from British control to become the Dominion, then the Domination, of the Draka. The Draka culture is remarkable for combining a strictly race- and class-based hierarchical society with near-complete gender-equality (including female soldiers in integrated military units in combat roles). The Draka are greatly outnumbered by their slaves, and quite ruthless in maintaining their rule. Compared to current western society, nudity and sexuality are much less taboo among Draka.

As a result of the intense manpower pressures stemming from their conquest of Africa through the 19th century, all Draka are liable for service in the military/security forces, and the Draka-only Citizen Force is by far the deadliest and most advanced military machine on the planet. But there are never enough Draka (only 30 million or so at the start of World War II) to go around, and the bulk of the Domination's Armed Forces are made up of "Janissary" Legions recruited from the Serf population. The Citizen Force provides the élite cutting edge, while the "Janissaries" are the cannon fodder.

Yes, these totally sound like the kind of people able to utilize the vast natural resources of South Africa in order to create a military-industrial complex that could take over the world.

>>13474593
Thank you

>>13474735

>the bulk of the Domination's Armed Forces are made up of "Janissary" Legions recruited from the Serf population. The Citizen Force provides the élite cutting edge, while the "Janissaries" are the cannon fodder.

You know what happens when you give an oppressed majority weapons?

Revolution.

>>13474634
By all accounts, the Roman agricultural system was very effective on its own. If replacing slave labor with paid peasantry halved its effectiveness, it would still be about 50% more effective than 20th century Russia. I think they'll manage.

I'm actually amazed at how little talk of the military angle is going down. We've got the collected military histories of Earth to draw upon, what will warfare look like?

>>13474411

Oh, I forgot to mention that the culture and education for the tiny percentage of non-slaves is ENTIRELY martially focused, yet somehow their science is about a century better than everyone elses.

Again though, the weirdest thing about the whole setting is just that their culture comes out of fucking nowhere - they're an outpost of the British Empire, then like thirty years later they're all pro-slavery atheists with this weird Fascist/Randian/Nietzscheist hybrid philosophy that they all adhere to with religious fervor.

>>13474791

lots of hit run shoot bow run type,why people don't like to get down dirty guns have spoiled us for far too long my guess your see lots of range. Bows and slings

>>13474801

Actually I can see the culture part. Tories, Dutch Calvinists, French Royalists, Confederates, White Russians, and intellectual exiles from all over. I think the result would be something pompous, arrogant, and fucked up in the head.

>>13474777
in the books, the Janissaries proper (of the WWI-WWII era) are more like a middle class between the Draka citizens and the common peasant classes. And then once the atomic age rolls around, they just drop all that shit and start using lobotomized gorilla dog hybrids. And yeah, Stirling does mention tons of revolts. He also mentions that they get put down pretty fucking severely and that they are the impetus for turning Draka society into the Sparta-esque militaristic society it becomes.

>mfw less love for the communist faction tonight.

Come on guys, they don't even get a flag? Don't get a sum up at the start of the thread? They were an important force yesterday!

>>13474791
It'll probably mostly come down to stereotypical conceptions of soldiery in each region. The communists were mentioned to have billhook (sickle-halberd, think about it) phalanxes and cavalry with hammers. Rome... Well yeah. The Sunsworn would probably be a more advanced adaption of old Aztec warfighting, and so on.
I'd actually be the most intimidated by the Sunsworn in this case, if those guys were up to snuff technologically they'd have been unstoppable... But then, one could make a good case that if they had been, they wouldn't have been nearly as impressive as they were.

From Wiki:

The series has been criticized on various places on the internet for giving the Draka an impossibly fast-spreading and technologically advancing society, as well as for assuming that the British would have tolerated the Draka's harsh slavery tactics.[2][3][4][unreliable source?] When asked about these attacks on the implausibility of the series in an interview, Stirling answered:

There’s a small internet industry of ‘proving’ that the Domination couldn’t happen. I consider this a complement (sic). How many people go on at great length trying to prove that vampires and werewolves don’t exist?[5]

>How many people go on at great length trying to prove that vampires and werewolves don’t exist?

>Stephanie Meyer is a good author because people try to disprove vampires and werewolves

>>13474801
>"science century better than everyone else"
It's not. If you read Stone Dogs, everyone pretty much agrees that America has the Domination pretty much beat as far as standard of living goes, and that America is WAAAAY more advanced in electronics and slightly better at materials. Where the Draka are better is in genetic engineering, simply because they don't have pesky qualms about human experimentation.

>>13474873 There’s a small internet industry of ‘proving’ that the Domination couldn’t happen. I consider this a complement (sic)

>People point out that my shitty fantasy series is riddled with plot holes and I'm so dumb I took it as praise.

>>13474857
I'd say that whichever side shakes off the survivor-mentality that will have possessed its people first, and starts fielding real armies will dominate the hell out of their surroundings.
That's probably why we've got these large factions in the first place. The New Romans rebuilt the Legionary system, and even in its half-assed initial stage that'd be enough to crush every gang of kids in California who think they know Guerilla Warfare.

Similarly, the PPA has its cadre of SCA thugs who make up its initial army, and while the SCA is the baby back bitch of the historical fencing community (and I shudder to consider it a member) it's still something, and that's why they ended up with Oregon and Washington.

I will agree... God help everyone near the Aztecs. Do you know what it took to stop them? Three plagues at once, half of the rest of the Natives, and then SPAIN.

>>13474857
So given what info we have (which is of course subject to change), who would win in a straight fight, neo-Romans or neo-Communists? Roman's are packing the legion, communists the aforementioned phalanx heavey cavalry combo. Assume both have some horse archer mercenaries and decent artillerymen.

>>13474882
start another thread somewhere else please these topics are not relevant to this thread. Lit would be a good place to go.

>>13474937
Similarly, that's why communism grabs the northeast. A ideology built around community and unity in a population that already accepts the ideas. Get a large enough group working on and protecting a farm, and when the cannibal hordes die out, you're ready to roll huge areas of land, one farm at a time.

>>13474938
Entirely contingent on who you ask... And other factors we don't know.
For one thing, it would take decades to get the Roman Legion back to its historical competency, so they're probably not the ass-stomping machine we know them as. Their famous logistics are still getting the kinks worked out, and they probably don't have the engineering thing down so well.

Similarly, it took a thousand years to actually figure out how to make pikemen work, and re-breeding warhorses would be hell. There's also the infamous logistical nightmare that is everything communist.

So I'd say it's a toss up at any given time... Which is probably as it is meant to be. There's also the question as to where the war is taking place. They're on opposite sides of the continent, so they're probably fighting in... What, Utah? Montana?

>>13474791
my guesses

The PPA have a brutal feudal system just to support an over developed caste of martial nobles, knights are their bread and butter. The Sons of Romulus are a Roman army with a country attached to it. The Nordic Horde are part Mongols, part Vandals, part Orcs. Plantation League have lighter/less armored gallant lads from planter families as light cavalry supported by their house forces (the manor/plantation levies) and supplement this less than ideal arrangement with heavy use of small professional mercenary forces the way the Italian city-states used. Lots of horses in Texas, so they probably have a large cavalry without it being a class stratification nobility kind of thing. Their horse army is highly mobile and supports the irregular foot militia.

The Union are highly organized. I would say a combination of English longbows of doom fighting and small unit tactic Adolphus the Great pike formation type stuff. The Nomadic Clans travel with their families and livestock, and that's how they fight - expect actions of manly bravado and unconventional tactics, as well the infamous Hungarian circled wagons shielding bowmen. The Freemen are essentially the early US, so give them spearmen and bowmen formations, but they are less disciplined than the Union and more Greek than 17th century Swede. However they are Ben Franklins and Tom Jeffersons with good universities and postal services, so expect SCIENCE! tricks. The Sunsworn are Hispanic/Anglo/Indian Southwest hybrid culture, so I don't really know - what do you think?

>>13474938

Romans,why private ownership, they have commies don't people who love freedom, and are greedy, join them. With their Superior number they zerg the commies to death.

>>13474853
>>13474853
>>13474853
>>13474853
>>13475014
>>13475014
>>13475014
>>13475014

The Union guys. Midwest? Like we discussed yesterday. Only one guy was ever like "they're in the Northeast with the librulz", the response to that was "Northeast starves out, urban survivors escape and become migratory Nomads".

The Union are the Midwest commies.

We can make them more Bolshevik and less Abraham Lincolny if you'd like.

>>13475037
>Rome, zerg rush.
>Implying that the vast majority of the citizens would own anything, instead of just working the rich man's field.
>Implying communism wouldn't simply be a continuation of the communal and democratic living that would likely take place in many places in the early years anyway.

yes we need to know they fighting. so how a meeting in the great plains sounds the most logical. how would war happen and who would have the advantage and who would win?

>>13474938
Most likely via proxy-warring. They're too far away to fight directly, but their client-states will receive support through them to anklebite expansion on either side.
The same will probably be true for the other factions as well. Most military deployments would probably be there in an advisory role to provide training, equipment and logistical/strategic support for the local boys trying to halt their enemys' expansion.

Rome would get those jackasses with the wolf-head hats, the Communists would get classical revolutionaries with berets and sweet facial hair, I'll bet anything that the Texans would field a sort of Texas-Rangers force who go about on horseback and provide policing support as well as training "deputies" abroad, and the Aztecs would send... I dunno. Jaguar warriors maybe? Guerilla fighters who move in and strike terror, to soften up the enemy for their local allies.

Cold War: Sans Nukes.

>>13475052
Communism could take place in various parts of the north east (Maine, Vermont, hell, even upstate new york or parts of CT.) The main issue is that they seem to have been changed from Medieval Hammer and Sickle to Angry Union Workers.

See, in between threads I took the comments about the commies and thought that essentially having centrally managed agriculture from the cities would be the Great Leap Forward all over again.

So instead I devised the idea to make things work.

The craftsmen in the cities, rather than having a large class based union of the workers that elects a bureaucratic committee that runs everything in the name of the workers, has a guild system. Senior masters of the trade run the guild, journeymen below them, apprentices below them; and each trade's guild are competing with the other guilds of the other trades for access to the limited resources. It would be a technocracy and could actually function.

Meanwhile in the countryside, things would return to the natural order of agrarian life. Private ownership of farms by families, but competition and buying and selling of the land is very much minimized - because you have private property so rather than having more market mechanisms to exacerbate that you have a broad class based union to compensate for that fact.

So in the city where things are collectivized you have hierarchy and competition, in the countryside where things are privatized you have democracy and cooperation.

The market exists in the collectivist cities, as a technocratic labor exchange between the trade guilds, while the family farmers and individual communities of the countryside come together in one big cooperative commonwealth - rather than struggling against each other in a zero sum game.

Where there is a collectivization, you have a market to compensate for that; where there is private property, you have socialist cooperation to compensate for that.

What do you think?

>>13475124
I guess it's a sensible reaction. Nobody in America would seriously strive to emulate the Soviet Union. If anything, that would be a pejorative label slapped on them by their enemies. They claim to stand for a strong egalitarian society of logical share and share alike, but would be faced with populaces seeded with the fear of an oppressive red menace.
Which... In all fairness, they would have to be. Some freedoms always vanish in the throes of organization.
The real question is, whose propaganda are you predisposed to believe?

>>13475070
>>Implying communism doesn't lead to totalitarianism

The Federated Boroughs of Cook Inlet said hi. If you aren't eating people, you just aren't doing it right.

>>13475180
As a citizen of Rome, I must ask you, frate, what do you have against totalitarianism? Rome is openly fascistic, they have people who carry Fasci (seriously, it's a bundle of sticks that represents unity) around to remind people of it.

They invented that shit 2000 years ago, and everyone who joins Rome, must go in with their eyes wide open to that fact: You are consenting to live in a society that spits in the face of the entire enlightenment period. You are fucking Voltaire in his grave.

If you have no problem with this, like me, then Rome is for you. A practical culture for an unforgiving world. But do not pretend that we are the lesser evil. We are simply the more survivable evil.

>>13470914

No, Steve, we had this entire campaign, twenty years ago; every D&D group ever has done something like this, and honestly? Even done well, it's not that interesting.

>>13475180
>implying communism isn't one of the two systems that would inevitably lead to a lack of government, the other being its far right counterpart, anarchism.
>>13475169
The Communists system would be almost the same as that of the romans, except there would be no "ownership". There may be a guy who calls the shot's on the farm, but he's not the "owner" or the "leader", he just happened to be the best at making good calls.

>>13475244

I know brother I was merely pointing out how funny it was that the Marxists filth claims they will have democracy. Ha!

NO YOU FAGGOTS

NO

LAST NIGHT'S THREAD WAS SHITTY AND RETARDED ENOUGH

>>13475271
Which is why Rome shall succeed. When you give something that is his and no one can take it away from him he fight to the death for you.

>>13475324

But what do the peoples of the Union fight for, ideas that fail,half promises of a better tomorrow. No people want something more than that!

>>13475290
They will not have democracy, but that is no fault of theirs. Democracy is a myth, the sort of thing Greeks invent to fool others into thinking that they are sophisticated. Rule by the people is impossible, as they will inevitably appoint leaders, who will themselves inevitably re-appoint themselves. Democracy is self-destructive, it is unfair. It was best described as "Two wolves and a Lamb voting on what to eat for dinner."

Perhaps they will sign a social contract, or a constitution, or establish a parliament or a separation of powers, there are any number of things they could do, and all will be equally ineffective at changing the nature of Man. They will have an Emperor of their own, whether they call him Imperator or Chairman.

Remember, Frate, that the enemy is no fool. He is misguided of course, because he is an enemy of Rome, but were he a fool, he would have died with the change. This is a world for the strong and the sharp, and it behooves us to assume our enemies to be both.

>>13475324
Sure, the owner will fight. He may even fight well. But there will be fifty peons beneath him that resent him getting all the money, and think that the idea of a community farm is pretty good.

>>13475354
What makes Rome any better, if they do not even try to empower the people? A failed democracy is still preferable to a totalitarianism.

>>13475388
Then the so called peons who work the owner can fight fight/earn land of their own and prosper.

>>13475423

And have the chance for land. Instead of nothing at all!

>>13475442
If by nothing at all, you mean communal ownership of everything. Hence cooperation instead of competition. Which in turn leads to less internal strife.

The issue here seems to be that people seem to be confusing the branch of communism proposed here (ie: Communal farming, really viable in a medieval world), with HURR DURR SOVIET UNION

>>13475388
This is not as likely to happen in a pre(post?) industrial society. Those 50 peons must contend with the fact that they are eating today, and their children are eating today. But if they revolt, they will eat well tomorrow... And the next day, they will be crucified by the Legion.
Without the equalizing factor of a diminished martial class, firearms, and huge disaffected urban populations, a people's revolution is essentially impossible.

Further, should any man desire his own land and properties, all he need do is join the Legion! Survive for a few years, and you'll have your own plot and your own peons, the way God intended.

>>13475392
A failed democracy IS totalitarianism, but unlike ours, it is an ineffective one. Rome embraces the notion, it goes forth with the understanding that its motives are entirely self serving. It is built around stability and efficacy, not idealism. In fact, that could be its watchword. It is not an idealistic society, but a practical one.
That being said, preserving The Republic would be ideal, it is just... Unrealistic. Particularly in the beginning. Perhaps once the cities are walled and the people are eating, we may speak of democracy within limits.

>>13475496
I must agree with the communist.

Communal farming does make perfect sense, even within our own system. Agrarian communities are functionally identical in pretty much any society. The difference is, of course, that those who serve Rome must give up some of their produce to support the urban population. In return for this, they are given protection by the armies. So this necessitates some different organization on the part of the Latifunda system... It matters little.

>>13475599
Actually, like I said, they would be identical, sans ownership. The communists would give some of their food to large towns and cities too. Except instead of then using the money to pay for the tools and similar handiwork of the city dwellers, they would recieve those for free, because they need them, so giving them is the right thing to do. Similarly, the army only fights because the community needs it to protect the values of the state.

>>13475524
>>13475599
As much as I enjoy this brothers I must sleep.
I shall see tomorrow if this thread is here. Valeo.

full on race war! may the best race win!

i'll just finish reading the series and do what they do!

Oh good, this thread again. I had a thought about the last one this morning, and I'm glad the OP is just enough of a fag to give me the opportunity to voice it.

All science fiction/fantasy (SFF) works rely on some significant premise as their core shtick. It's the future, aliens invaded us, magic exists, magic just now comes back, whatever. In addition to the usual standards of writing, how the shtick is handled becomes a major factor in how good an sff work can be:

Great science fiction/fantasy makes a change to its world and follows the ripples as they percolate through society and eventually profoundly effect every page in ways that you could never have predicted but make absolute sense. The change is as natural and believable as a factoid in a history book, and often about as dry.

Good science fiction/fantasy makes a change and justifies it and its effects via thirty page diatribes exhaustively detailing them, should the reader be interested or sometimes not.

Mediocre sff is much the same, but without the thirty pages of exposition. Generally aliens did it. And it doesn't affect the world nearly as much - everything is stock [setting], plus change glued on top.

Bad sff doesn't even do that. Shit just happens for no reason, and doesn't change a damn thing otherwise. Often the change isn't even internally consistent - sometimes it applies, sometimes it doesn't who the fuck knows.

Terrible sff starts off as bad sff, then tries to give a bullshit nonsensical reason why the premise makes no sense, then usually drops the whole thing with a "jeez guys it's not the point."

Guess which ones this is?

>>13475392

Except the failed democracy will get overrun by the totalitarians, who tend to treat foreign peasants even worse than their own.

Also, most of you Rome fanboys are completely off. This isn't Caesar's Legion, so you can go fuck yourselves with all this "most survivable evil" bullshit and trying to sound all badass. The ancient Romans weren't a bunch of hippies and ACLU lawyers, but they weren't brutal survivalists either. They had distinct values, such as civic responsibility and, at least in theory, some degree of liberty for Roman citizens.

Also, you're completely overlooking the fact that this isn't ancient Rome, this is 21st century America. The technology might not be much different, but you can't pretend that there hasn't been 2000 years of change in political philosophy. Some Enlightenment ideals are going to be found among the Sons of Romulus, whether you like it or not.

>>13475639
I understand what you said, but I am disagreeing.. Albeit from an oblique angle.

One of the decided differences inherent to the Roman system is that as an Empire that is decidedly militant, its primary goal is not survival and quality of life, but expansionism. For this, the people must be given the impression that they have something to gain beyond a new hoe or a plow. The very minor lack of ownership, that very lack of money within the Communal system, is all the difference in the world.

The key is that within the Roman system, quality of life is invariably lower by mean. The same amount of labor and resources, but some people have more, and thus, most people have less. But this is acceptable to the Roman mindset, because class mobility is a term of military service away. What this means is that the state is constantly egged towards expansionism, to secure more land and more resources, so that the people can retain their dream of being that one in a hundred who join the army and end up a land tycoon in Bologna. Or... Nebraska, I guess.

But yes, at core, the agricultural system is the same. A farmer from one could switch places with a farmer from another, and little would change except he's got to jump through different hoops to get what he wants.

>>13475743

Um, no. By your definition, the only good SF is hard-as-diamonds SF, and Philip K. Dick would be only a mediocre author. Sometimes, all you need or want is a quick hand wave to let all the cool shit happen, or, like PKD does, get thrown into an alternate/future reality, and have the setting develop and explain itself over the course of the book.

Actually, including a 30-page manual that's required to understand the rest of the book seems downright amateurish. It's basically pulling an FF13.

>>13475786
I feel you are getting the wrong vibe off of this hypothetical Rome, sir.

What Rome represents is indeed the most survivable evil. Not only that, but that is all that excuses it in principle to begin with. Nobody here desires it to be Caesar's Legion, because that plan was doomed to failure from the very start. It destroyed, but it did not rebuild. It was based on conquest, not on proper Imperialism.

The idea of this "New Rome" is that civilization will benefit more from a return to the pragmatic expansionism of Rome than it would from an attempt to rebuild the world based on values and philosophies that cannot survive in a pre-industrialized world. Civic pride, the privilege of the Roman citizen, devotion and loyalty to the Empire, these are integral to the idea of Rome. But to say that these things do not come at the cost of an evil is preposterous.
An expansionistic oppressive state whose stated purpose is placing the Roman above everyone else? It is certainly evil. But it is an evil that takes care of its people, and offers others this care as well. It is an evil that does not exclude anyone except by their own volition. It is an evil that civilizes lands and lays the groundwork for a survivable civilization wherever it goes.

I use the term evil facetiously here, but frankly, that is the only way I ever use the word evil.

>>13475743
The first thing everyone will admit about this series is that it is poorly conceived. But the fun of this thread is that we are subverting the ridiculous assertions of the actual series with our own, equally ridiculous, but far cooler assertions. Rome? In CALIFORNIA? I mean seriously dude.
You've got to remove the stick from your ass for a minute, it's obviously tickling your brain.

>>13476016
Basically this. We are lifting the cool elements of the setting (PPA, New Roman Empire), and mixing them in with outright replacements for lame factions (This would be the mongol canadians, communists, and texans taking the place of CUT and the Wiccans.)

>>13476122
Hey man, I LIKED corvallis

>>13476016

Goddamn right Rome in California. Although technically in the actual series they're in what, Idaho? And mixed with the US military? I actually really liked those guys.

>>13476199
Yeah, they were like really big. Then Stirling fagged them up, as he is prone to do. But I think they were like from new mexico to close to wherever the Bearkillers and friends are.

Sons of Romulus: professional army dominated by medium infantry w/ strong engineering corps and heavy use of fortifications/siege weaponry

Portland Protective Association: martial class of heavy cavalry/heavy infantry supported by lightly equipped conscript levies

Nordic Horde: horsemen (mongol style archers-slash-fighters) raid all year 'round, mixed infantry go a-viking between planting and harvest

Plantation League: citizen-soldiers, light cavalry from the planter caste and house footsoldiers from the sharecropper caste, supported by small professional mercenary companies

Texas Republic: professional and highly mobile horse army (archers and lightly armored lancers), supporting irregular militia called up as needed

Union: large semi-professional army - pike formations and longbow partisans

Nomad Clans: a martial people by dint of being migratory and always open to attack; wagon circling bow shooting, charioteers, fast infantry, unconventional tactics

Sunsworn: professional army of lightly armored well armed infantry (like the Romans, but trading medium armor for faster movement and additional projectiles), volunteer light cavalry

Freemen: citizen soldiers in the beginning, but the army called up in the time of emergency is growing permanent as attacks keep happening; spear and bowmen with volunteer guerrillas and steampunk toys

thoughts?

>>13476193
I live in Corvallis and it freaked me out to see the name here. Anyone else read the books?

God DAMMIT, he spends half of the third book talking about how the good guys just barely manage to build up an army big enough to fight the PPA, the armies are ON THE FIELD, the catapults are firing at each other, and what happens? The huge battle you were expecting? No, a fucking sword fight. I mean yeah, between two awesome characters, but come ON, I wanted a real battle.

>>13476330
Cook Inlet: Cannibal rangers. Big on bows, sneaking around, and living in the deep woods where they do what they please (think of Craster).

Less memorable, more stand-up forces include pike and marine troops (light armor), who will only eat you if they really need to.

If this setting is going to be remotely realistic, the first faction to perfect Mongol-style warfare will conquer everything east of the Rockies.

Stand firm, lads!

>>13476622
Except people have these nifty history books. The only way the *mongols conquer everything is if they get big before the opposition wises up. Then it doesn't matter that they have effective counters, they can just swamp the enemy with superior numbers and logistics.

Using parts from aviation and other discarded tools, I take pneumatics and make massive pikes, with tar on the tip of the 4 foot long metal spear. Lighting the tar and using massive Ethanol distilleries, I make the most advanced army in the land, consisting of 500 men on the front line with Flamethrowers. We go from place to place, as the Bearkillers did, cleansing those who revel in tyranny and filth, and helping those who wish to escape the tyrants.

We are The Seraphim's, mercenaries to the free. For a price of course.

>>13477020

Clan Fianna of the Nomads make their stand

For Rome and Rome's Church!

>>13476622
Mastering such a method of warfare is basically the same as living it, and such a culture could not proliferate in large enough numbers any place in America to seriously threaten as large a swath of land as you're talking about here.
The steppelands in which the great golden hordes brewed were the size of the entirety of the United States, and they operated basically in a vacuum of urbanization. America is completely different. It's an untenable option.

>>13477082
I am almost positive that the plural of Sepharim is Sepharim.

I would play this. It's all there, and each side has something to love and something to hate about it. I can taste the bitter rivalry already.
Personally, I'd like to see a Mordheim-style game with these factions. Celtiberian style Mexican mercenaries in the service of Rome, having badass falcata-duels with Aztec Jaguar Warriors in the ruins of Mexico City? Wolf-Masked infiltrators fighting Texas Rangers over the ruins of an old library? Vikings from the north scrapping it out with Mormon warrior-priests?

Hell fucking yes.

Additional reading.

>>13477675
isolated monastic communities preserve the history and knowledge of the world-that-was by transcribing everything from history books to scientific dissertations to mechanical blueprints.

>>13477197
Seraph singular, seraphim plural.

>>13477675
Oh snap, I remember this, the "Children of Fallout" bit, where they thought Fallout was some sort of fucking demon, right?

Over in Europe would be a scary place, with all the eastern europeans being some of the best placed to survive, and since my country is full of Polish immigrants anyway (and we're honestly better off for it I'd say) heres to being friendly towards a new Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth.

Just don't think about invading, I've got castles, pikemen, archers and enough trouble fighting the damned French pirates already.

How well could we get trains working with sails btw?

Could be potential for great long distance stuff. We shouldn't just be trying to re-create the past after all, but seeing what crazy shit we can do with the leftovers of the present. Like how you get people in some countries using bows with strings made of rubber and bungee cord and arrows make from sharp metal rods, or leaf springs from cars re-forged into machetes (its good steel after all, and better to forge rather than just carve).

>>13478021
trains with sails.. a tiny maybe?
not entire long linked up trains, but a stripped down truck frame with rail wheels perhaps? and a mast, rigging, etc. Might work, on Some lines, for Some times, and heaven help you if there are tunnels around that next corner.

>>13481546
Actually, muscle-powered trains would definitely still work, those ones from the old cartoons with the two-handled pumps?
If you just scaled those up, you could probably arrange something resembling mass transportation.

>>13481546
Yeah small trains rather than mass cargo hauling jobs. Just thinking of ways to use train lines, because they seem ever so useful. Tunnels would be a hell of a problem on many routes but that leads brilliantly to the next post.


>>13481732
Muscle powered, that's a damn good idea, perhaps rather than a pump a wheel to push around (mill style) would be better on a larger scale? Perhaps some sort of combination like the old oars + sails way of boats (train triremes?) with a collapsible mast to get through tunnels. Though some tunnels would still be full of train from the moment of change, quite probably crashed train. Still, good opportunity for salvage there.

Thankfully train lines here run through villages so whilst the stations may have been closed for decades the potential to link up again without having to be in a town is still too good to miss. Maintaining the lines for any usable distance though would be a bit of a nightmare to start with.
I could certainly see a network of fortified train stations popping up and people roaming around following the track for the sake of trade and conquest.

Does compressed air still work in this world? As in can you still compress gasses?

Because there were military air guns back during the 16th through 18th century. More powerful than muskets of the time. More expensive though.

>>13482208
Might be possible, but the compressed air thing If I remember right isn't all that effective. might be better to use use all the really strong springs that are around and create big crossbow-like weapons out of them.

Thinking on that line, isn't portable siege weaponry (rather than siege weapons that have to be built on site) is surprisingly easy with all the wheels, tires and road networks around?

Whilst cannon is not an option I'm betting some surprisingly efficient large weapons could be built, easier than infantry weapons anyway which'll probably have to fall back on the traditional staple of bows, crossbows and slings.

Image related in a spring powered weapon way.

>>13482352

Yeah, it should still be quite possible to make, say, a ballista on a wheeled artillery mount. After a couple generations rubber tires are going to be nonexistant, so you'll have to go back to steel-shod wooden wagon wheels.

>>13481732

You're probably just better off with horse or ox-drawn trains. You'll be limited in max speed, but the extremely low rolling resistance means your animals could pull a much heavier load than they could with a conventional wagon.

>is it too early to point out that the 'alien space bats', in their quest to save us from ourselves,
>have locked humanity in an endless cycle of suffering, filth and disease?
>oh, right, sorry..


anyhow.
>>13482518
might be correct in the long run, but in my mind's eye i can see stripped down metal skiffs, like those professional rowing shells? with a team of people "rowing" the drive mechanisms gears and sending the small craft zooming along the train line at impressive speeds.
just, you know, for awesomness?

and it might be the most effective way to spread information between some cities (once you go around with a huge crew of labors to tilt the old trains off tracks/drag them to a spur to be taken apart)

>>13482567

Well yeah, but like a regular train handcart, the only use for that is moving a small amount of passengers. Not good for moving cargo.

>>13482597
>>13482567

I'm sure there's all sorts of ways to rig up old train cars, particularly those flat ones that shipping crates are stuck on, with exercise bikes or rowing machines to get teams of people quickly powering back and forth between places, carrying small loads or passengers.

Being able to travel dozens of miles in a day without needing horses would be a serious communications advantage for any forming empire.

>>13482703

Train cars are HEAVY. They're built with the assumption that you have massive engines to get them rolling. You're basically building a complex machine so a bunch of people can do a horse's job less well than a horse could.

You want speed? Send a lightweight handcar, or a guy on horseback. You want to move stuff? Animal-drawn train. Trying to go halfway will just end in pain.

>>13482208
Compressed gas builds pressure to a certain extent, not enough to be all that effective.
>>13482352
Springs would work well, and with modern knowledge we would be able to construct some fearsome siege equipment.