Evil.

Brainwashing of any sort is evil.

For that matter, I've always wondered why Charm Person doesn't have an "Evil" descriptor. That spell's real name should be Enslave Person.

It's hard to find an ally so powerful as a foe, and when you get right down to it if you have the power to flip one over to your side it is a powerful gambit. Getting the power of a matron mother on your side could be very useful.

That said, try and learn from every story where this is done ever, and be aware that she is going to remember sooner or later, though at least that should make for an interesting game.

>>14506126
charm person does not work like that. there is a spell called dominate you know

When she regains her memories you guys are fucked.

Someone losing their memories and becoming a better person is a fine trope but it ALWAYS ends badly for the person who caused the amnesia deliberately.

That and that was a pretty damn evil act. You just rewrote a persons very core identity. The line between that and erasing them from existance entirely is a thin one.

Thats what happened to Darth Revan in KoTOR

Made for interesting gameplay and WTF moment when you finally find out.

The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.

>>14506150
>>14506126
>>14506133

He's not talking about Charm Person.

He's talking about... fuck, what are they called... I think Programmed Memory and Mindrape. They're high-level spells that let you fuck someone's entire personality over.

>>14506167
>>14506126

who cares about what's "evil" and "good" as long as it gets the job done?

>>14506189
confirmed for evil alignment

>>14506129
>>14506145

Well yeah, that's why I'm wary. Is there any way I can soften the blow, maybe make her more sympathetic for genuine? My character has a decent charisma.

>>14506189

Confimed for enemy of JUSTICE!

It's not the tools but the result that makes action "evil" or "good".

>>14506197
More like confirmed for true neutral
He doesn't give a shit, just does what's told.
To be fair, OP, I don't think mind control is evil. It's practically the same as killing someone, really.
Depending on who you do it to, it gets less serious.
Still not anywhere near acceptable for a good party unless it is necessary.

>>14506207

Anyone?

Is it evil to mindrape a polymorphed any object stone-to-fleshed self-carved statue female clone of yourself into having your exact mind?

Is it evil to do this a few hundred times so you've got a whole host of female clones who think exactly like you?

Is it evil to then polymorph yourself also female and then live the rest of your natural life in ecstatic hedonism on another plane?

>>14506248

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

CLEAVE AND SMITE is the only proper answer to evil. Anything else is probably evil.

While I'm here, I might as well request the source of OP's image.

>>14506248

That sounds very impractical.

It would be a much easier thing to just Clone yourself repeatedly and then change each clone to female.

Also depending on your original appearance you may want to change the general look of the clones to become sexier.

>>14506111
There's a spell in the Book of Exalted Deeds to do that to evil outsiders, so no.

Mindraping can be said to be worse than murder because in D&D souls exist, and death on the material plane is little more than leaving a hotel lobby. If you have any kind of magic at your disposal, dying is an entirely trivial obstacle - you don't even need a new body. Altering someone's memories, on the other hand, means fucking the soul directly, i.e. causing permanent damage. Also angering the gods who had dibs on it.

Is it evil to petrify your party members, stone shape them into exotic, beautiful women, flesh-to-stone them and then mindrape them to think they are my concubines?

>>14506303
>It would be a much easier thing to just Clone yourself repeatedly and then change each clone to female.
Clone doesn't actually make a living being, it makes an inert duplicate of a creature that only comes to life when the original dies.

As such, you STILL need polymorph any object, AND mindrape as it won't have the memories.

Polymorphing to something more appropriate in shape would also be suitable.

>>14506327

Umm...YES!

This should not be something that needs to be asked.

Yes, taking away peoples freedom = evil.

>>14506349

What's the idea behind giving each copy your own memories? Wouldn't it be better just to let them be relatively "blank" personality-wise?

>>14506327
>Is it evil to petrify your party members, stone shape them into exotic, beautiful women, flesh-to-stone them and then mindrape them to think they are my concubines?
>petrify your party members, stone shape
enjoy having dead adventurer bodyparts strewn over your carpet.

Think of it like this: if you remove the petrification step, you'd be "shaping" them like beautiful women by putting them in a woman-mould and compressing them until they're the same shape.

Lots of broken bones and squished organs.

Evil. Also a waste of a thousand gold pieces worth of unguents.

>>14506380
... Ribbon? When did you get all grown-up and angry?

>>14506378
Well, whatever gets you off, I guess. I rather enjoy the company of myself, but you might like mindless slaves like that.

Actually, here's a good point: can you grant other characters XP by mindraping your experience and memories into them?

>>14506398

No. Nothing you do an bestow character classes or experience levels to anything, short of Wish or Miracle.

>>14506111
If I were you I'd be worried your wizard doesn't start considering the rest of the group inevitable fair game.

Ok, so using mindrape is evil, because it has the [evil] descriptor.

How about using programmed amnesia, from Complete Arcane? It's exactly the same spell but doesn't have the [evil] descriptor. Permanent, too.

>>14506419
But if I polymorph something into ME, doesn't it get my class levels and all that crap? Or is it what, a level 1 commoner?

Brainwashing Is a step beyond killing them. At least when they die they're still themselves. But when you take their personality? That's just playing meatpuppet with them.

You know all those times someone says "death is too good for you" but then decides to do something stupid? Instead, THAT, when you actually mean it, is when you pull out that helm of reverse alignment.

Now if you mean mindrape in the "like the tentacles on schoolgirls, but all in their head until they break", they'd be better off normal-raped. You're smack-dab in evil-action territory. You didn't convince them to change their ways, you stuck your mental cock in their brain and fucked'em till it was butter which you then sculpted.

This isn't to say it may not be a useful, or ultimately "she helped us do more good in the end" situation or all the like. But that's just like how assassinating a tyrant isn't in and of itself a good act, and may in fact still fall under "you evil fuck", though it'll ultimately be for the greater good.

If you outweigh that massive stain on your record with being good 'n propa, its not necessarily "you will always be evil", but someone who was in only 'average' standing for their alignment is gonna shift you over the line, at least till the weight of your actions sneaks you back where you were.

At the very least, this 'new' person needs, and deserves, to be treated as not-the-POW/Animal you might be inclined to treat the drow-bitch as before this happened. You want her happy with her new views when the inevitable "NO. I AM YOUR FATHER" comes about.

>>14506474
>use programmed amnesia to ensue utterly evil person does good
>no longer evil person is effectively dead
>now good person uses powers for good
>evil person not sent to hell due to death where only eternal torment awaits them
>instead is just completely destroyed and replaced by a good person, who will probably go to Good afterlife instead

>this is clearly an evil act of playing meatpuppet with them and you are a terrible terrible person

>>14506293 here. Might as well ask for artist of the OP's pic, if source is not available.

>>14506500

You are destroying a person. Helping a different person to go to a good afterlife does not make up for not mearly killing a person but unmaking them.

The means are evil the ends are good, whether the ends justify the means is a question of how your character feels about those kind of things, and how willing they are to compromise their morality.
Like, it would be unacceptable for a Paladin, but a CG Bard might have no trouble with it.

>>14506126

Because the person at least can't be forced to do something absolutely against their principles without needing to make a save/check for that.

So, if you want someone to commit an evil act for you, charm someone evil or caveat at their neutrality.

So is knowingly putting a Helm of Opposite Alignment on someone's head always an Evil act?

>>14506558
>people's personalities survive eternal torment perfectly intact and aren't reduced to mindless fleshless spirits eternally wailing in anguish

As a paladin, would you rather kill a person permanently, or send them with you very hand to be tortured eternally?

Because this is EXACTLY the choice here.

>>14506500
Other than the fact that the 'good' afterlife isn't always much better (if any different) from the 'evil' one, you still destroyed them, tore their personality and made someone else instead. That's the kind of 'final solution' BBEGs do to 'purify' the world all at once, except you're doing it single-target, not AoE.

Plus, there could've been some rewards in said 'evil' afterlife that they won't qualify for anymore atop it all. Or they just get punished instead of a job there, because of the weight of their previous acts compared to their new ones.

There's very few religions that pretend you can be a complete monster and as long as you feel bad about it in the last moments of your life you'll be total-good-rewarded because you somehow deserve it.

Usually the kind that tell you its not rape, pillage and murder if they're unbelievers because you're "saving" them from a terrible fate of not being you.

>>14506631

As a paladin would you rather kill someone, or unmake thier very being, make them might as well have never existed. Sending someone to the afterlife they earned for themself isn't evil in an of itself, destroying a persons very soul is.

>>14506631
in a world of paladins, the people they kill go wherever they deserve to go, according to their religion/way of life

in other words, its their victim's decision, and that of their god

because that kind of thing can't be decided upon by a man

>>14506639
>there could've been some rewards in said 'evil' afterlife that they won't qualify for anymore atop it all

Preventing evil individuals from getting rewarded by evil deities in evil afterlife? Sounds exactly what a truly just man should strive to do.

Would using polymorph and programmed amnesia on yourself to turn yourself into someones hot elf girl sex slave be an evil act?

>>14506676
Nah, that's in the hands of the gods and their servants.

The just man makes sure they don't wreck up the living world too bad.

On a serious note. Would it be possible to rehabilitate a villain? Say she's wounded, her schemes destroyed, and the choice is death or trying to help her. Is there any established way to do this WITHOUT fucking her mind over?

>>14506755

Befriend the crap out of her.

On a more serious note, yeah, there is. Most villians are not in it because they concider themselves evil but becuase they think they are doing the right thing.

Thus it is possible to convince them they were wrong. Most people who truely believe they were doing the right thing will want to repent after that.

>>14506755
Offering her repentance the usual way is viable.

>>14506755
Well yes, I've had players who did it and have done it myself when I played.

>>14506772
>>14506774
>>14506776

Some villains are not redeemable.

A drow matriarch would not be. Under any circumstance.

>>14506789
So you kill them or send them back to the drow to punish on their own.

>>14506789

Not so sure about that. I'd say it's possible but it's the work of several years at the least, more likely decades.

>>14506772
What about someone that knows they are doing horrible shit but thinks or knows it is the only way to achieve their goal?

>>14506789
All villains are redeemable

>>14506808
Well it's not possible to reform everyone, just like it's not possible to corrupt everyone.

But goals are easily subverted.

>>14506805

I'm thinking of the option to reform Viconia in Baldur's Gate II. It should be possible.

>>14506820

you're asking for it, aren't you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Z3aY0uELTQ

>>14506364

No, taking away a good person's freedom = evil, but taking away an evil person's freedom = punishment, like jail.

That said, I wonder if there is a spell not to unmake a person, but to put their personality into a sleep-type dormancy while placing a copy of yourself in the driver's seat and gaining access to their memories and powers?

That way, evil mage = you mage and evil dragon = you dragon which you can ride on.

D&D is not a game of "turning the villain into my waifu" you dumb fucks.

Look at what you're fucking posting.

>>14506858

What the fuck anon.

What. The. Fuck.

>>14506862
Nonsense. DnD is all about the evil waifu.

>>14506647
So, torture as punishment is ok as long as they werea bad person?

I'm not following here.

Assume for a moment that there wasn't an afterlife in a homebrew campaign; killing someome permanently erases their life from existence.

NOW is it evil to mindrape instead of kill?

>>14506858

You're clearly thinking smalltime. Place your personality in any hot slut you find = hot slut willing to become your fucktoy. Hell, you could build a monstergirl harem that way.

>>14506858
No.
Even in jail one has freedom. Freedom to think about what one has done (ideally) and freedom to decide to be a better person, or freedom to end yourself or freedom to come back a thousand times more hardcore.

Brainwash = No freedom.

>>14506879
You don't even need the slut, use Polymorph Any Object in stages to make the individuals you're going to insert yourself into (hurr hurr)

>>14506894

Polymorph can be dispelled. Better to use an actual slut.

>>14506862

Not nesseserily a waifu, no but redeption should not just be for hot villians. Everyone deserves a chance.

Not that it's a BAD thing to redeem cute villians, it's just not limited to them.

>>14506808

Depends what that goal is. If there is a way to help them that does not involve such actions, you help them find it, if there is not, you MAKE IT.

>>14506879

You realize that a version of you will be stuck in a hot slut. With other versions of you stuck inside other hot sluts.

Heck, why not give em all telepathy and make a D&D version of the Borg Collective.

>>14506936

I will only assume that any version of me in the body of a hot chick would be willing to help other mes out in having the best sex of their life.

Or are you saying you wouldn't be a bro to yourself?

>>14506870
Correction.
/co/ is all about the waifu

>>14506929

I know. I'm just messing around because I find myself insanely attracted to the idea of taking someone raised in the kind of totally opressive and ruthless identity-crushing society that a drow matron has been and slowly, carefully helping them break free of that. She deserves a chance at a life where the best possible thing is to murder everyone who has even a faint risk of betraying you (even your own children) and live long enough to become a chosen of a horrible vindictive goddess.

>>14506956
That's because you have no life.

>>14506956

Everyone deserves such a chance.

Though, it's the belief of our team in M&M which has led to us having extencive cast bloat. So many redeemed villians and rescued unethical experiments. All in a magical girls day.

>>14506947
>>14506936
On thinking it over, the person who suggested clone WAS right - first, you polymorph yourself into your desired shape, then you clone yourself, then you polymorph that clone into a living version of yourself, and then you permanent amnesia your memories into her.

That'd remove the antimagic field issue.

Good and Evil in D&D (at least, on the planar scale) seem to be more like two different sides rather than relating to actual morality: Good aligned deities err towards wilful innocence (read about how Asmodeus came about; just how naive and sometimes outright hypocritical the supposedly just gods can be is astounding), while demons/devils err towards cynical arseholery. Both, however, have committed and continue to commit atrocities against one another simply because of their diametric opposition; not because they need the resources, not, as it might superficially seem, because of a battle between justice and tyranny. The long war in the planes continues simply because of hatred of foes too different to be tolerated. In short, by IRL Western morality, neither side can be considered to be good.

Of course, on the material, mortal scale, things tend to make more sense. A good, non-lawful-stupid paladin will probably not go on a genocidal rampage to kill every living soul towards the south end of the alignment grid, while an evil tyrant who oppresses his people is widely regarded as a dick; in essence, regular, IRL morality and D&D morality do link up on the mortal scale.

To bring this somewhat incoherent rant back onto the topic at hand, what I'm getting at is that reprogramming an Evil character with a Good or Neutral aligned spell would be considered a Good act; however, by a real life definition of good, it is very dubious indeed.

>>14507007

Doesn't work. Clone does not create a living form, nor can polymorph make it "alive". You'll just end up with dead bodies.

>>14507067
/tg/ is big on self-determinism. Forcing somebody to be something against his will is unforgivable, whereas killing him is simply killing him.

I do not say that I agree with it, this is simply my observation.

>>14507067
Jails mostly exist these days to profiteer off of completely corrupt lawmaking. They serve virtually no reformational purpose in their current form.

>>14507067

Killing them is not a good act and killing in cold blood is evil.

If you a magical explosion goes off during the fight and they are accidentily mindwiped because of it, you did not do an evil act, much like killing them in your defence is not an evil act.

However, systematicly sitting down and destroying who they are IS evil. Prisons and reabilitation are not evil because they are making a concious decision to change who they are not 'Poop, you are a good guy now becuase I warped your very being' or even worse mindwiped them a put a new personality in, which is debatably not even the same person.

>>14507067
Alright, first, the word bigot is so meaningless these days that it can be applied to anybody, for just about anything.

In this instance however, what you are viewing is the very prolific belief that it is wrong to strip a fellow being of his free will in the name of making him a better person.
This subscribes to the Clockwork Orange school of thought that anybody stripped of their free will cannot be a better person by definition, because they are not a person at all.

Thus, by this model, to kill someone, to end their existence altogether, while horrible, is more decent than to reduce them to something less than human. In the former, you simply cease. In the latter, you linger on as a blasphemous parody sapience.

>>14507032
>polymorph can't make things alive

>Polymorph Any Object
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm
>Level: Sor/Wiz 8, Trickery 8
>This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another. The duration of the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state to its enchanted state.

...It goes on, but you can use PAO to change a pebble to human for a short period. Changing an inanimate human body into a living human with an intelligence score and wisdom etc, is in fact much easier, as it's the same kingdom type (animal), same class (human/elf/whatever), same size and VERY related.

So yeah, it works. I only wonder if Polymorph Any Object would cause such a clone to stop living if it hits an Antimagic field.

A chaotic good character would flip his shit and smack the guy who suggested it around. A lawful good character would consider all other alternatives first. A neutral good character would weigh the options and probably end up putting him out of his misery so the rest of the party doesn't do horrible things to him. No one else would really care.

Hope that helped.

>>14507067

You raise a good point, although it is one I do disagree with. My take on it is that reforming a person via teaching them the error of their ways is perfectly fine, and is what prisons are ideally (if rarely actually) supposed to do. However, what the OP was proposing was the concept of simply deleting the person's personality (for most intents and purposes, killing them), and putting a new, idealised personality into their body. It's a mileage may vary thing, but to me, that is not reformation; that's sanitised necromancy. To put it another way, the difference between killing the BBEG and mind-wiping him is the difference between killing an enemy soldier, or killing him then raping his corpse.

>>14507095
>If you a magical explosion goes off during the fight and they are accidentily mindwiped because of it, you did not do an evil act, much like killing them in your defence is not an evil act.
So if you mindrape them in an act of self-defense, it's ok then?

I would've killed him out of hand, just because there is no reason to do this that in any way benefits me, and a hundred reasons to do it that could screw me over later.

>>14507134
>difference between killing an enemy soldier, or killing him then raping his corpse.
Wouldn't it be killing the enemy soldier then using his corpse to birth a new innocent person into the world who has the power and mindset to do good deeds?

>>14507135

More along the lines of 'It was an accident, you are responcible but you are not an evil person because of it.'

>>14507114

Antimagic, dispelling or disjunction will end any such effect. Which is why just copying your mind into that of a cute female is a much better idea.

>>14507152
Through rape, yes. Basically, the sort of stuff they try you in Hague for.

>>14507152

Depends. Who's doing the mind rape?

What if the current crisis is something only Evil McBadguy can stop? Is it still evil if you subvert his mind to play for your team so he can save all the innocents? What if his new personality is far happier doing good deeds than his old personality ever was?

Guys. Can we please focus on the important things here, like building a monstergirl harem or making a villain into your waifu?

>>14507135
If only rape in self defense would be legal...

>>14507208

Then you did an evil act reguardless.

However, once someone IS mindwiped, you end up with another issue. Is it right to restore them to thier original state, if it costs the new personality it's existance?

>>14507208
To the first, yes, it's still wrong. It's just an acceptable evil, because it is temporary and you're doing tangible good with it.

To the second, no, it isn't worth it. You can program anyone to enjoy anything, you have fucking magic.

>>14507174
Right.. in THAT case, we Polymorph Any Object the clone, THEN we make a clone of the awakened clone, THEN we kill the original clone so the clone's spirit goes into the new body, which will NOT be affected by the Polymorph Any Object spell. Clone will lose a level, though.

Any problems with this now?

>>14507225
Stop using unnecessary apostrophe's.

>>14507212
Right, right...

The best bet would be to use antimagic manacles or any capture device that can hold the type of villaness we are out to get, then convince her gradually, I won't deny it's dangerous as fuck, but hey, think in the fun in that!

I will steal my own idea and apply to my exalted game, should be fun, the rest of the party is trigger happy, specially the dawn...

>>14507240

Seems legit to me.

So... we get an army of female versions of ourselves, all with our mind?

>>14507212
All the good ones have fucking massive will saves.

>>14507245

Lots of charisma. And use honesty, don't try to be "smart" and make up a bunch of shit. You need to break through the big pile of crap that's conditioned her from the start, and convince her there's better choices to be made.

brainwashing the villain is - in some ways - even a good act (YMMV). you saved her life and she will be happy...

in my opinion the reaction to this very idea of brainwashing enemies into allies (just the big bad evils, not some basic mook) is more about chaotic-neutral-lawful

Chaotic Good would think about it (it´s useful for you and merciful, so who cares about ethical violations???), but even Lawful Evil would not even accept the very suggestion. Their own moral code would never allow it ("fate worse than death").
neutral would be cool with it, depending on the player

>>14507250
Probably low level, though.

...Since we've got all the cloning equipment around, might as well have them fight to the death to level up and have after-battle orgies after. That'd give us an army of low/medium level casters after a while, so we don't need to keep production levels up personally.

After that, mass castings of telepathy might be nice, too. And then you can do whatever you want, really.

Clone hivemind army is a go.

>>14506111

Nice trips.

It's definitely...unethical. Eventually, even the best mind control is broken, wears off, or comes back to bite you.

Someone with the will of a servitor is unable to help you without orders when you are unable to speak or communicate, someone takes their orders the wrong way, or, worse, they figure out they were being controlled and fight back.

>>14507253
There's a way around everything. With strong willed aristocratic women, you just trap them in a marriage where they're basically socially, legally, spiritually, religiously, and everything else-ally except magically obligated to do what you say.

And you let her know that you're entirely aware that she is your superior in pretty much every way, except that thanks to a quirk of society you outrank her, and could ruin her in an hour by revealing that she has resisted your entirely ludicrous (but universally accepted) control of her life.

This way, she knows that when you say "Bitch, get me a sandwich." It is a travesty of justice, it is completely antithetical to fairness, it is wrong, stupid, and cruel... And it'd better get done, or she's going to be biting the pillow tonight.

>>14507289

No, see.

That's just being a dumb asshole and not really helping the character at all.

>>14507272

..and you had to ruin it. Boner killed.

>>14507313
Well, how else are you going to level them up? It's that or flood the adventurer market.

>>14507342

They're all you. They're not going to fight to the death for the amusal of yourself. Unless you're insanely self-destructive.

I keep telling you guys.

How to train your drow matron mother.

Adorable animated movie

>>14507406
Eh, in that case they'll just "subdue" each other to get the XP required to level up. Better?

>>14507502

Basically, guro just turns me off massively.

>>14507531
Fine, fine... they can all have lots of ranks in use rope to restrain each other, or use nonlethal castings of Evard's Black Tentacles, or other hijinks. I'm just looking at the efficient way to level them, is all.

>>14507563

Awwwww, now that's kind of cute.

We have a character who's become super-notorious because of a botched assassination (don't ask, long-ass story). I'm pondering ways that we can change him into a totally different-looking person whom nobody will suspect. You people in this thread seem to be good with this kind of things, any way we can try this?

Character is a male human rogue.

>>14507626
Rip off Nocturne's mask from Oblivion.

Or, you know, just make him wear a regular mask.

Yeah, that's pretty fucking sinister. That said, clever player. I can see why the DM liked it.

>>14507591
Just remember, there's still lots of squicky stuff related to all of this. For example: Clone requires a 1 cubic inch of flesh each time, so you'd probably want regeneration to make up for having bits cut out of you for each clone, as well as the 1,000 GP materials each time, as well each clone needing another clone.
Programmed amnesia would require another 500 GP crystal lens set each time for materials, too.

Furthermore, you'll STILL need a method of killing off the first generation clone to get rid of their antimagic weakness, so yeah.

But apart from that, it's the perfect all-you harem that you'd could be a part of, forever and ever until you get tired of it.

>>14507308
Wow wow wow WOW. Slow down.
Who's trying to help who now?

>>14507626
As we've said, polymorph any object works fine. OR, try getting your DM to allow your rogue to permanency an Alter Self on himself if you're lower level. An antimagic field would disrup that, though.

>>14507678
No idea. I'll tell you, I could use a sandwich though. But I have no tamed aristocrats.

>>14507679
Note; permanency will be pretty expensive and require level 11 equivalent caster level or something, meaning the wisdom DC to cast it would be 12 to beat, and can fuck you up.

>>14507679

How much is PAO to cast by an NPC again?

>>14507639

I'm not sure what that does, not having played Oblivion.

>>14507662

I find the idea of a caster having a lab where he growns blobs of his own flesh in tubes in order to produce new weird genderbent clones of himself to be both hilarious and terrifying.

>>14507758
http://yasa.nycmongol.com/spellcost.html
Spell level 8, caster level 16 for the 8 levels wizardry, 1280 GP for it.

>>14507819
>>14507758
>>14507699
>>14507679
>>14507626

This is the PERFECT time to get clever, Anon. Chat up the wizard you're hiring to cast the Polymorph spell, ask him to turn the rogue into a hot young woman, then explain to "her" that the only way nobody would figure out who "she" is is to turn him into a chick. Then buy "her" some pretty dresses and such and claim it's vital to the disguise.

Trust me. Will be hilarious.

>>14507814
Oh, the caster gets to be genderbent too, if he/she so desires.

Regardless, it's kind of freaky. You can make a level one duplicate of anyone for 2,000 GP the first time as well as the various casting costs.

Including casting costs and everything:
Clone: 2330 GP
(needed twice, also needs 4d4 months of growth time)
PAO: 1280 GP
Programmed Amnesia: 2120

If you can get a wizard to go along with it, you can have your very own clone in any shape you want for 8060, or permanently shapechange yourself for a single loss of level and 5940.

>>14507864

I totally wouldn't trust someone to do that to me and uphold their end of the bargain, though.

>>14506111

Gave me a boner.

So

Yeah.

>>14507864

If reading skeevy fantasy novels has taught me anything, then I believe this would result in the clones/copies taking over and subduing the original.

>>14507907
Well, if you've got enough ranks in UMD or wizard ranks you can do it yourself though at a hefty cost and risk to yourself.

Scroll casting prices:
Clone: 4250 GP
Clone: 4250 GP
Polymorph Any Object: 3200 GP
Programmed Amnesia: 4550 GP
Total 16250 GP per duplicate, not exactly a cheap investment.

>>14507967
>I believe this would result in the clones/copies taking over and subduing the original.

>implying I haven't been training them in use rope and nonlethal Black Tentacles for a reason

The problem being, if we're all subs, then that's no good at all!

>>14507981

Enjoy the copies mindraping you as well, making you one of them, then spending eternity luring in males to be your new "master".

>>14507969

I meant the "changing yourself" part. You can't cast the requisite spells when dead.

>>14507991
Clone spell works like this: You cast it, then if you die, your soul gets shunted into the clone at one level lower and an XP loss.

You can die at any time, as long as the clone hasn't decomposed a lot. Gentle repose might help.

>>14506111

That sounds kinda familiar...

>>14508005

Ah, hmm. Why would you risk it, though?

>>14507988
>implant copy of self into clone
>clone implants copy of self into me

...Uhh... what?

Also, the only problem is they all start at level 1 while you'd be a level 18 wizard still.

In conclusion, Mindrape/related spells are terrifying and awesome, Polymorph Any object is broken, and liberal uses of the Clone spell has fixed the final problem of antimagic fields, forever.

>>14508027

Go away Revan YOU'RE DEAD I KILLED YOU

>>14508038
Polymorph yourself into whatever shape.
Clone self, your clone will be your polymorphed version with all the stats thereof, permanently.
Kill self, get transferred to your polymorphed body.

The issue with Polymorph Any Object is that an antimagic field will suppress it, meaning if you use PAO in conjunction with mindrape/Programmed Amnesia you risk the original form of the person you're altering will change back when they hit an Antimagic field, in this case being a dead clone, or your original body, which is less than ideal. Killing yourself and respawning in the new body removes this drawback.

>>14508095

Yes, yes. But why would you WANT to subject yourself to that?

>>14508108
1: turn yourself into another race, like a beholder or a dragon or something in order to benefit to massive stat increases and natural abilities, without having to avoid antimagic fields for the rest of your life

2: wish to be the little girl

3: magic

Pick one?

>>14508146
I think we all know the answer to this one.

>>14508146

What if you want to be the little magic dragon girl?

>>14508146

You can be every one of these girls.

At once.

EVERY ONE.

And they would all be hungry for your dick.

The Hellbred race from the Fiendish Codex is an appropriate comparison here. An evil being dies and before 'settling' properly in their deserved sucky afterlife they earnestly repent and the heavens offer them a second chance by reincarnating them as a Hellbred with no memory of their prior life but for the sure knowledge that they were evil and must redeem themselves.

Making a Hellbred is unequivocably good because it creates more good and less evil in the universe, and it's chaotic because it relies on the Hellbred's choice to try and redeem him or herself - which they're quite capable of walking away from after the fact and fucking up even more. So it's a Chaotic Good act.

In the case of mindraping a living evil being such as the drow matron, it's involuntary on her part, but it reforms her into a being less hostile to society at large, and potentially good. Suborning her will to benefit the majority is definitely Lawful. It's no more good or evil than killing her, and her crimes would mandate the death penalty anywhere, so it's neutral there. So it's a Lawful Neutral act.

One more thing, if she was reincarnated? She had to explicitly choose to be reincarnated, knowing it was at the hands of Tangles McTreefuck the druid worshipper of BigTrunkLargeHuge or whatever. So that implies she *did* want to escape Lolth's clutches and take another chance. So this actually does become far more akin to the Chaotic Good creation of a Hellbred than just mindraping a defeated foe.

>>14508187
Sure, whatever gets you off.

As per
http://oldsuptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/graveyard/1168958/

Touhoufag originally suggested the Polymorph Any Object/Mindrape combo to turn everyone into touhous, however the immunity to antimagic fields via the clone/revive addition I think I managed to come up with on my own. In addition, you don't need to use mindrape and thus be evil to do so, since the clone should prevent that from being dispelled as well.

>>14508187

dissapoint'd /tg. Not even worth saving.

>>14506440
Spoiler; he already has, you used to be an illithid.

That's an interesting idea: have the entire party find out that their personalities, their memories, and even their bodies are carefully (or not so carefully) constructed fictions.

Would be an interesting twist on a game.

>>14508828

What would they be, then? Originally, and now?

>>14508851
The BBEG's old toys turned into people so that he could have fun by playing with them.

>>14508851
Exactly!

Also, "cloning" yourself en-masse and scattering said duplicates across as many places as you can strikes me as a brilliant way of gaining effective immortality. Mind you, it raises all sorts of questions about the nature of existence, but it makes the idea of your death rather laughable- each time you die, another you steps up to take your place, maybe even with a completely different appearance. If you have the wit to repeat the process each time...

>>14508287
Looking back, it always amazes me how... informal Touhoufag used to be. When did he become so absolutely proper?

>>14508893
yawn, kinda a lame twist, no player is going to want their character to be hijacked by lame backstory

I scathe because I find it a stupid idea.

rolled 45, 98 = 143

>>14508270
Hrum.

rolled 53 = 53

>>14508986
Truly horrifying.

>>14508828

The twist should be that the current identities of the party were created by some very powerful and dickish archmage by using programmed amnesia and polymorph shenanigans on a group of archvillains. Basically entire party is Revan.

Of course, you need to clear it with the players beforehand. If somebody doesn't want to use that backstory, have them be a real adventurer who got in with the crowd later.

>>14509754
Get him to be a paladin and enjoy his reaction when it's revealed that the entire part is composed of villains.

>>14509754

Actually, hell. Let's take it one step further. That weakness versus anti-magic fields, or dispels or whatever? That can be a STRENGTH instead of a weakness for this plot. Have the party go through normal adventures for a while, coexisting as happily as they can.

Then have them go through an anti-magic field during an adventure.

And it suddenly dispels the Polymorph spells everyone was under, leaving them restored to their true, "villain" forms.

At first, utter confusion when everyone thinks they've been transformed, then possibly talk to each player in turn to introduce hints to the true nature of what happened.

>>14509808

More fun if the paladin suddenly discovers he's a female ex-villain.

>>14509887
>>14509754

Thoughts on this? I think it could be fun, as long as all the players are in on it, or okey with it.

rolled 92 = 92

bump

Bumping with epic villainess art

OP - This is most certainly an evil act. It is horrible and the gm should be sure to adjust (behind the scenes if necessary) his alignment if its straight up D&D.

But onto the where to go from there, well thats up to you. I would say confront the player on it in private, and tell him you are going to confront his character on the subject.

I used the exact same tactic in my most recent pathfinder, to show how fucked up a gal was. NPC had a wish, she was an exarch in Xorvintaal (dragon chess/poker), and wished to become a player, partner to her mistress, and so she became a red dragon. But the formerly good witch can't cope with red dragon blood making her hot headed, angry, and irrational. (first she was psychotic from the wish, as she had no hoard, and I enjoyed a certain sidebar in one of the 3.5 books saying how the hoard represents their memories, they remember everything in it, and gives them solace, since they're connected to the leylines of magic and all that jazz).

But then in a fight where I warned the players if they got into an encounter made to fight HER, the baddies would prolly rape them, so I urged them out of character not to cower behind the dragon so I could make the story about things after THEM, not the dragon.

Anyways, so deck of many plot derailments, one party member gets the ire of an outsider, roll for random outsider, Devil Prince. Goodie. But as the massive battle was unfurling into a blood bath, I had the dragon start pumping out her save or die spells. Or rather, save or be permanently stuck. Things that lasted the whole of the combat, and then after, she proceeded to brainwash them. Not via spell, but good ol' fashioned reinforcement. I didn't describe it as I told the players unless they wanted to watch, as its supposed to be unpleasant. It was to reflect, that she didn't see the line between good and evil that way. She went 100% into the 'ends justify the means' mindset, and stone to fleshed all the devils she had the spell up for, and proceeded to store them and one by one putting planar manacles on and just, rewiring them.

I plan for them to break free eventually and go Night Shift Nurses on her ass if she doesn't rectify it, which would only happen if her alignment was shifted back to a good or goodish one. Anyways. Brainwashing is evil. Ever hear of a cult? Yeah its not good behavior.

>>14510777

I don't think the OP is around anymore seeing how old this topic is, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on

>>14509754
>>14509887
>>14508828

if you so wish?

It's also a throwback to the prior campaign in this world, where the party was in the process of converting a lich who was my PLAYER char in a game another DM ran, where I achieved lichhood, and lost playability in my char as I ran off to be a villain. (Insert Knowledge by any means necessary lich), and so the players wanted to rescue me, so the DM handed the reigns to me, and I ran a campaign of either killing her or bringing her back to convert her back.

Long, fun story. Party blew up at one point, but ended in them bringing her to the Bastion of Heironeus (Read: Jail for super big bad guys) and having an epic Minas Tirith battle as her horde, and the forces who had been 'sponsoring' her transformation (Zern and an army of their minions), all sieging to break her out so she didn't unravel their plans.

Players who had chars with former connections with her had to go down into the dungeon and basically slap sense into the evil evil lich, bringing up her good life where she didn't do the evil acts, and then cycling out to help their troops as the battle raged on. They were expecting a deus ex machina from me to DMnpc-cinematic their escape.

Captcha: grim weight

Instead, the paladin in the party had talked to me about how he was leaving the campaign, and had his paladin thrust her angelically blessed sword into her body as she was falling in battle, to call down an angel into her body. He thought I'd cinematic through him. Instead, I handed the reigns of the angel and the sheet I prepared to him, and gave everyone buffs of every sort and increased spell lists like they had gained levels into the epic levels, and they began beating back the swath. The paladin was turned into a statue at the end of the battle, and he announced his departure at the end of that session. The paladin was the only person without a connection to the lich, and so that was the breaking point, her seeing someone commit seppeku so they could convert her, instead of just breaking her phylactery and killing her.

We had brotears, and I was proud :D

>>14510471

She would make an awesome Malificent.

>>14510972

That IS Malificent, type her in deviant art and that pic is like, #3 lol

>>14510972

It is Maleficent.

>>14510885

I like the concept, especially the fellow who mentioned the anti magic field. Would be interesting if they also had some supernatural abilities and such, things that would still function but only function once they go in, so they don't think "oh anti magic zone" and go "OH CRAP ZONE OF BALEFUL POLYMORPH" or something of the like.

Would be clever if the badguy was involved in fighting them too. Maybe he/she is annoyed that they have gone 'good' or off the reserve, so to speak.

As far as clearing with the players, you won't get a wtf moment if they are expecting it. You need to work with them to put in their backstory, like make lil points that can all be drawn to the big one in each backstory, but let them write their own.

In a campaign I ran with such a wtf moment, everyone suffered a YOU ARE DEAD, THIS IS THE AFTERLIFE moment, and not a single player of the six knew it, but at the end saw how true to form it was. They all had some minor injury, from a possible flu giving them penalties a few days prior, to a car wheel hitting a guy in the back.

They limp, cough, etc their way to someplace alone, and are woken by someone with silver irises, who try to murder them, and then were rescued by some rendition of demons or satan, each of them.

Now insert a world that seems to suck in people, from multiple timelines, but otherwise human, where angels murder people and lure people to death or to sell out the defenses, and demons are shoring up the defenses. Later they find supernatural creatures, using a magic that seems to warp your body, and your mind soon fits it if it sticks. World also has a grand secret, those who know the secret say it will change your life entirely just hearing it.

Finally one player has the balls to ask someone to tell them, someone they spent the time making friends with and working hard to get trust to be told. They're told they are in purgatory. The angels seek to slay the souls of those here to send them to judgement before they get any worse, as most do here (its a decadent society, slavery is common, and there are collars that can warp your soul into any form the master wants....), and immediately the silver eyed girl who killed the player steps out from behind the friend, and tells him she must take him away. This is before a huge fight with the chapter bad guys (some slavers with tons of slaves... and angels), so as far as the players knew, he just vanished. And he was the fighter, they all supported him...

>>14508283
>One more thing, if she was reincarnated? She had to explicitly choose to be reincarnated, knowing it was at the hands of Tangles McTreefuck the druid worshipper of BigTrunkLargeHuge or whatever. So that implies she *did* want to escape Lolth's clutches and take another chance.

This pretty much removes any objection I had with the plan.

>>14511216

Consider this stolen my friend :D

>>14511216

Wait, why did they have to go away immediately if they knew the truth, and if people knew the secret and were still around, how does that work?

This is relevant to the game I'm currently in.

In the last game the group played, towards the very end when the PCs were in the process of becoming demigods, we fought two epic ghosts - a Princess who hard sacrificed her kingdom in a dark ritual to become the Tarrasque thousands of years ago (which succeeded, we killed the Tarrasque a couple of adventures earlier but had no idea of this part until we found the ruined kingdom) and her maid who had assassinated all opposition to enable the princess to conduct her ritual.

They were an annoying fight because we killed the maid about half a dozen times, and she kept respawning to defend her princess until eventually we got so pissed off and Wished for her to not be able to respawn.

That made the ghost princess utterly break down and stop coherent resistance, since the maid was the only person who ever loved her, and she honestly recirpocated. Feeling bad, and considering the fact that she could still put up a hellacious fight if riled, we offered her a chance at redemption. We'd ensure both she and the maid were reincarnated as innocent babies, and ensure they went to good families close to one another so they could grow up as friends without the pressures and solitude of royal life. Their memories would be locked away 'until they were ready', and it would be up to them to make something better for themselves.

The game ended, epic play was a bit too bloated and we longed for more simple stuff. So we start a new game in the same setting, 20 years on, with our old PCs as established deities. We're playing troubleshooters/mercenaries, and on our latest job we encountered the reincarnated princess and maid working as mercenaries for the possibly crooked merchant we're investigating.

Felt pretty good, man.

Even if they do seem vastly more competent and cool than our current PCs.

>>14511216

Yeah. Mostly I'm concerned that a lot of players will actively rebel at being told something about their characters that they weren't involved in creating.

>>14511216 here

They couldn't stay because you immediately had to go face judgement. Purgatory (in this world) existed for the grey area souls, which was the majority of the modern world. I was trying to do the bastard every-religion-is-right
motif but my players said after they wouldn't have cared if I went full blown on one as it just was the story.

Anyways. He had to face judgement, and had a choice. If the soul was destroyed when it knew it was in purgatory (and knew, suspicions were fine), it would be destroyed. He could go back and fight on the side of the angels, at the cost of staying until purgatory was no longer needed (and since time in purgatory is like, a 1month to the day...), at the risk of your soul entirely. Or you could go straight to judgement, and you weren't told where you were going. You were told that fighting for the angels wouldn't affect your judgement (but it would). As the entire thing was based on the "you can't act good solely for the purpose of being good for your own judgement" mentality.

The players loved it, and one by one they all 'dropped' from the game, I asked them to sit out til they all had asked, and when they all faced their judgement and selected fates for their characters, then I pitched new campaign ideas. Including the old chars, the ones who chose to stay, now can explore the other continents that are SERIOUSLY fantasy based, like some are D&D on crack. Since the world's people are reflections of souls, and you can breed in this world and basically bare raw-soul energy children, and... yeah it can be epic. Still waiting on more players to do that one again.

>>14511318

Purgatory guy here -

Just work it in with them. Another person in another thread mentioned my golden rule of party making. You don't make them behind closed doors. Make the char with at least the DM. It sucks, and requires far more work and time, but then you can be part of it.

Ham it up if you have to, maybe hide it as a "Central Casting" randomization for his background, be rolling dice and give him some random good things ("Oh, you got really sick and almost died as a child, +1 con saves vs disease!) and then bring up a "Oh, hm. You'll find out about that one later." and dont have him write it on his sheet, they'll forget it eventually, be too busy assuming you did too.

>>14511318

Just besure to make it something memorable in the happening. Like don't just say a one liner like I did, give em a half paragraph of an event. Take a leap of faith even.

I had a wonderful payoff using the creepy things thread, where the char remembers this scene from his childhood, except there was a wrath with a scythe following a party of adventurers. I described what I figured they'd be finding, when we had a short spear and shield paladin, halfling alchemist, and drow ranger, i described them seeing a drow with two blades (the guy didnt want to dual wield, til one of the baddies was using some badass dual blades....), the halfling used a wish to be a half dragon halfling, and I had described a short lizard like creature, and then I just said the guy had a tower shield with regalia. Sure enough the paladin had gone into tower shields, with his symbol on it.

The bricks were shat. Hard. When they realized death was following them. :D But point is, the paladin thought it was fluff when I told him, but when I said "this feels familiar" and I described the kid's scar on his nose... he stood from the table and looked at me like I had no nose myself.

>>14511381

Oh. Hm, that's an odd way to roll characters. Usually we've always just sat in our own corner and paged through books (often at home) and then submitted a character sheet for the DM when done. And gotten approval.

What I'm wondering is why the matriarch even accepted the Reincarnation to begin with. She knew who it was that was casting it, and the other option was to rock out with Lolth in the afterlife. I mean c'mon, matriarch, causing chaos in drow society, waging war on the surface - it's not like her god was going to throw her in the shit pile when she showed up. That's all stuff that makes Lolth smile.

>>14506129
Pic source?

Reincarnate only works on willing souls, so I'm curious why the matron mother thought coming back into the hands of her enemies was a better idea than staying in the afterlife.

Assuming the matron mother was a cleric, I don't know how many good aligned gods would grant spells to someone who's only holding a compatible alignment and/or beliefs under false pretenses. If she's any smart she might eventually figure out something's wrong her own. That's going to bring up some interesting questions down the road.

Programmed amnesia is also permanent, not instantaneous (unless lol mindrape [evil]) . Inserting a false personality into a powerful caster that might get erased by anti-magic is just asking for trouble.

>>14511461

We get far fewer player killers (who aren't designed to be player killers) that way, and then people can fit into other peoples backstory.

We had major problems with the "Band of Brothers" problem as we called it. When someone has rerolled 2 or more times, why would your chars connect to them? In BoB, they mention how the new people just die and it sucks, so they dont bother getting attached to the newbies, as they're just gonna die too. When you play with people who really wanna roleplay without the pc armband, having the ability to just, schroedinger the new pc into existing pc's backstory, it works wonders.

Hell, while it was slow and like major drama in char, one of the best backstory ones a player took was the emo gal made a sexpot char who was raped, insert angst. Rape wasn't like super evil rape, was 'we got drunk and did what we shouldn't of, i had a miscarriage and my tits got huge. woo. more sexpotting' New reroll? The guy who did the getting drunk with. Major interparty 'drama' but in the end fixing it, making both chars grow immensely, and they became close. Never woulda happened with Joe McMysterious who is suddenly attached to the party.

>>14511502
That's what the polymorph any object/clone spell is for.

Back on the original subject however, I think the best route if you are going to do the forced rewrite of personalities, is you have to do what someone with true amnesia must.

Establish the baseline personality, the one you ideally want in control, and to know itself. So raise this girl to be pious, make sure she has friends, people who love her for being kind and a good person, and make her want to be the good person. Give her a goal of being good, something massive. If you can get her truly religious, more points to you. A good god could get behind TRUE pretenses if say your party cleric saw this, hated it, and so asked the god to give her true belief.

Next, tell her what she was. She'll be defensive, or it might snap her back. But make sure she has both lives. And make sure you're ready for a fight in D&D. Don't give her death as an outlet. Give her imprisonment, and giving her levels (in game as energy) to an arcane ooze or some negative energy thing. If she remembers and goes full on drow. But then show her the positive, show her the life she could have. Show her the fun she had, and remind her of the true happiness she felt when she wasn't drow. Drow get joy from pain. Now that she's felt joy from happiness, she should see the difference. Normal drow, simply cannot.

Then its just psychology, keep an eye on her, help her develop, and probably keep a candle of truth in her bedroom or something. Just keep up positive reinforcement, she can't ignore kindness once she's had a taste. It will win, or she'll just go insane.

>>14511535

Oh, well. I don't think that would be a terrible problem (I don't run very lethal games, not more than "standard" anyway). It's just the whole "interfere with the character creation" thing that's unusual for us

>>14511502
a high enough level witch can force an unwilling target to reincarnate

You can do it if you're neutral. Particularly True Neutral.

True Neutral people tend to focus on an ideal. Any ideal woks, so long as their approach to it is amoral.

No, not IMMORAL. That's evil. Amoral. Capable of good and evil, all in the name of accomplishing their goal.

Mindraping an evil person who stands in their way to become a good person that helps people (and incidentally helps them) is one of those mixed actions that isn't really good or evil.

Now a GOOD person can't do it. They'd want to redeem people, but they'd want to do it by talking them down, sending them to prison for punishment, or they'd just kill them.

Evil people could do it, but probably wouldn't. They'd rather have tools than do gooders that get in their way.

Mind raping people to be good is a strictly neutral thing to do.

>>14511483
>>14511502
Reincarnatemind.

>>14511574
Polymorph Any Object is also (at best) Duration: Permanent, so it has the same problem at Programmed Amnesia. Clone has the same informed willingness to return problem that Reincarnation has.

What you'd need would be an Instantaneous version of Programmed Amnesia / PAO. Then the only way they'd risk slippage would be from Break Enchantment (or an informed Wish/Miracle). But outside of DM fiat those sorts of things are understandably hard to come by.

Here's my thought now:

We normally have four players, with a fifth who sometimes joins up.

I let them roll up characters together with me, and put down some stipulations.

Will reveal they're all polymorphed/mind-altered villains later.

Suggestions for identities for the four(five) villains? I need something suitably shocking and entertaining for roleplaying purposes. Thinking of a heterogenous group, since something like "all drow" would be harder for me to play out.

Gimme some ideas, /tg/!

>>14511714

You are justifying rape of evil people then. By your own logic, walking in and raping a mafia don's wife is okay, requiring that she was involved. Rethink what you're writing.

And as above, mindraping their identity away is destroying all who they are, and quite possibly, fucking them eternally. If/when she does die, Lolth is gonna kick her ass, even if another God likes her now. Just because another God likes her now, doesn't mean that Lolth loses all say, she'll throw a hissy fit BECAUSE SHE IS LOLTH. Hell, I could see Lolth sending some drow to kidnap the matriarch and send her to her raep-plane to make her evil again. Or at least fuck her up enough that she gets to keep her soul, out of spite.

And again, you are DESTROYING her soul as it is. Forced repentance is evil, unequivocally. Sure she may live on to do good deeds, but you just went way lower then she did in order to do it. SHE is good. You are not. At all.

Stop using your D&D to roleplay your rape fetish.

>but then our wizard (whose player is a weird guy) asked our druid to Reincarnate the drow matriarch

>>14511693
What is this witch you speak of?

>>14511836

Purgatory guy here.

Four or Five you say? Pieces of an avatar of tiamat. Works good with five, works better with four. Make a bad guy who secretly wants to capture them and unveil them, and merge with them to TPK them AND make Tiamat start the apocolypse or some great huge epic plot.

Makes the BBEG FAR more fearsome, if you can't kill them, and you just have to run. Maybe demonstrate what he did on some tiamat-spawn creature of five or something, so he sees like, if he touches all of them at once, they all become one. So it creates this giant oh shit effect. Then you also can capture the players for greater then normal amounts of paranoia, because now OH CRAP HE MIGHT MERGE WITH HER AND THEN....

Just my two cents. I'm particular to dragon campaigns however.

PS. My capture is casting a spell I think. Wonder what it does: "Anatia Infinitum"

>>14511893

Pathfinder Witch, at level 18 and 20, they get greater hexes. Once a day per person, if they selected the reincarnate feat, they can target a person, and make them save or die. Literally. They reincarnate into a creature of the witch's choosing, as per the reincarnate spell. The kicker, they also die. And this is subject to all the things the witch can do to make the save WORSE then a normal say, finger of death. So, yes. Force Reincarnation into busty women entirely possible. if you're picking the form, whose to say the Witch doesn't also control the features?

>>14511893
Which witch?


...oh.

No they can't. Other guy talking about witches, you are dumb. There is no way to bypass informed return. You could bring someone back as intelligent undead against their will, but that's entirely different.

>>14511917
What is this "Pathfinder" you speak of? It is anything like FATAL?

>>14511917
Pff, Pathfinder.

>>14511900

Nah.

I don't like dragon-themed campaigns, and definently not a Tiamat fan.

As I said, I'm mostly doing this for the roleplaying opportunity, and "You're one fifth of Tiamat" is a lousy roleplaying incentive :P

>>14511917
>They reincarnate into a creature of the witch's choosing, as per the reincarnate spell.
The Witch doesn't get to choose the creature.

>>14512020

Straight from the Advanced Player's Guide --
Forced Reincarnation (Su): The witch causes a creature within 30 feet to die and be immediately reincarnated into a new body of the Witch's choosing. A Will save negates this effect. Those that fail are slain and immediately brought back to life with the spell reincarnate. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.

Tell me I'm wrong again, love :D

>>14512037

Uh, buddy? Did you just notice the part where you QUOTED THE WITCH'S CHOOSING?

LOL, the witch chooses. Derp. l2read?

>>14512037

Your own quote and my own show, the witch gets to choose. What are they choosing, the reincarnate spell? That's just redundant. Every GM I've ever had a witch in has run it as you choose the animal. Granted one said it had to be my familiar's animal. But still. The witch chooses.

So feel free to find something that says I'm wrong. But I'm not.

>>14512067
you missed the person who said you where wrong

*grabs popcorn*

>>14512037
>>14512067
>>14512098
>>14512088

This proves to me that Pathfinder is the most fucked up system ever to be close to mainstream.

Hated enemy die?

Turn your former enemy into a pet and force them to beg you for scraps for eternity.

Force your enemy to become whatever he hated most, and have fun dropping him in a group of xenophobes against that race.

Have your Witch forcibly reincarnate him as a teenage elf girl and rape her endlessly.

It's way too fucked up.

>>14512169

DUDE, WHAT? THE POWER PERVERSION POTENTIAL OF REINCARNATE ISN'T THAT SPECIAL.

>>14512169

That's it, I'm rolling a witch next pathfinder game! :D

>>14512169

The out of character usefulness of that is amazing. I group in a major group of munchkins. Everyone, myself included, will backstab each other. I try to limit it only to people who haven't made rp connections with my char and walk on my face. So, the entire rest of the party most of the time.

First time we got in combat with a witchy char, I'd be spamming that bitch on them all. "SHE DID IT" I'd act like I had one of the other ones. Buy some true resurrect scrolls and act like I used a hex to do it if it came up "Yeah i don't have the reincarnate hex...."

>>14512067
I can't because I admit I don't know Pathfinder.

But please call me love again, it made me feel all warm inside. It also made me think of you as a cute librarian chick with a British accent.

>>14512169

I am now envisioning a witch who has a giant harem built. Filled with magical wards and guards. Inside he has a ton of lovely, exotic, sensual girls, all of whom are utterly terrified and scared to even talk to outsiders.

Turns out they were all the witch's opponents or rivals at some point, witch killed them and forcefully turned them into his whores.

Fucked up enough?

>>14512232
same

I didn't know pathfinder made it this easy. Best of all you can pull it with next to no warning like the OP.

>>14511726
You amnesia program the person, then polymorph them, then clone them and bring them back. At that point their cloned self will be free from polymorph spells, and the magical programmed amnesia effect on the person should become nonaffected by antimagic, too.

You guys are fucking sick. Forever alone dot jpg

>>14512403
You seem...upset.

:D

>>14512357
you have to be an 18-20 level witch to do it though

>>14512487

I am almost afraid to ask, but what are you gonna do with your Witch?

>>14512571
I dunno. This is the first time i posted in this thread.

That said...

LAWFUL HOT DICKINGS FOR EVVVVVEEEEERRRYYYYYYYBBBBBOOOODDDDDDYYYYY

>>14512645

I assumed you were

>>14512232

Also. Lawful Good witch? WUT

Bump

>>14512658
a witch can be any alignment

>god i can't wait until the 4chan extension is updated for firefox 4

>>14512658
All i know is that dickings will be involved in some fashion.

>_>

>>14512817

You just want to turn your slain enemies into helpless female playthings to rape and use as you please, don't you? :|

>>14512858
Sounds fun!

>>14512901

Enjoy your morally bankrupt chaotic evil villain, dude. :(

>>14512403
Hey, hey. What's wrong with cloning myself en-masse? I'm sure I'd object if I found my behavior to be a problem, and this way I/we laugh at whatever the world has to throw at us.

>>14513014

Possibly the idea to turn your clones into your harem for sexual perversion.

I'm sure a copy of yourself waking up in a female body would be soooo fucking eager to jump in bed with you.

Or not.

>>14512088
You're an idiot. I quoted that to point out where he was wrong. The Witch DOES NOT GET TO CHOOSE THE REINCARNATED CREATURE OR FORM. It's not in the Witch's ability text. It's not in the spell description text. It's not something tha happens.

>>14512098
The thing that says you are wrong is the rules.

>>14513041
What's a harem got to do with it? It's just a dubiously ethical way of getting faux-immortality, perhaps with a complete body change for some "backups" to stop whatever made it necessary from catching on.

If they/we object so strongly, they can probably fix it themselves later. Goodness knows that's what pre-written instructions are for.

>>14512367
Two problems.

1. It's not certain that the clone would carry over the polymorph effect by virtue of it being a Permanent effect rather than an Instantaneous one. That is to say: You cast a spell on a body. You now have a body with a spell effect that is currently changing its form into something new (and will continue to do so until the effect is dispelled). If you then clone that body, the clone does not have that same resident spell effect on it, and thus is a clone of the base form. What you would need in order to make the polymorph transferable to the clone is a polymorph spell that's instant and thus rewrites the body's base form rather than one that maintains a change in perpetuity.

2. How the transfer of effects functions on a dead person would be up to the DM. Again an issue of Perm v Instant. You cast a spell on a target and the target then dies; do the spell effects stay resident with the target's body? Or do they stay resident with the target's soul? If spell effects *do* transfer to the soul, which ones? If spell effects don't transfer and aren't instantaneous then the clone stage has a problem, because the moment you kill the target in order to get them into the clone, then they're free of the programmed amnesia, remember who they are, and informed return lets them opt not to go into the clone. Likewise, similar to (1), without transference the clone body wouldn't be subject to the programmed amnesia spell effect - it gets left behind on the original target.

Only way around the transference issue I can think of off the top of my head would be to insert a step before the clone stage where you use Planar Binding to call up the (petitioner) soul of the deceased, hit *that* with programmed amnesia and then dismiss it so that when the clone call shows up they're inclined to take it. It doesn't address the duration issue, however.

As paladin, I find it hard to understand why wizards always seem to be perverts. Is it because you can't get laid?

>>14513126

Either way, it would be evil.

>>14513014
Doesn't work that way.

Clone creates a prepared shell for your soul to inhabit in the event of your original body dying. There's still only one soul to go around, however. Until they're occupied, a clone is inert.

What you'd need to do would be something along the lines of:
1. Make a clone of yourself
2. Kill your clone body.
3a. Hit your dead clone body with Animate Dead, bringing it back as a (quite fresh) zombie. Unintelligent undead are key. This is subject to your DM to raise something without an available soul as undead. If he doesn't allow it use 3b instead.
3b. Hit your dead clone body with Animate Object, making it a medium size Construct.
4. Cast either Awaken Undead (if a zombie) or Awaken Construct (if an animated object) on your dead clone buddy. Spend some xp, and congratulations! You've just created a new, separate, distinct consciousness and soul from your own. Say hello to your new friend. Inform them of the steps to follow in order to get their consent. They're gonna be a *real* boy!
5. Kill (painlessly as possible) your new friend.
6. Resurrect awakened dead clone you. Congratulations! You have a new friend who has the same body as you, yet is a distinct individual.

Also you've just created a completely new, viable soul! You've just spit in the face of the gods! Give yourself a pat on the back, champ, you deserve it.

>>14513135
Eh, it comes with having charisma as a dump stat.

On the other hand, even putting aside daterape Charm Person spells, for a wizard a booty call is only ever a single Lesser Planar Binding away. Handy that succubi only have 6hd.

Just remember to use protection or she'll gladly suck your levels out through your dickhole.

>>14513266

And become evil in the process. Enjoy!

>>14513398
don't forget the negative energy protection

>>14513398
And 600 gp.

Did you just change your villain into Darth Revan?

...fucking awesome.

>>14513266
Which book describes the option for Clone? This sounds like a wonderful idea that should be used whenever possible.

ITT: We violate the laws of god and men to create abominations.

>>14513424
I'm not seeing anything evil in there. Blatant disregard for divine providence, sure, but that's not evil in itself.

>>14513444
Nah that's Planar Ally. Binding lets you coerce or negotiate rather than trade services or solve the problem with raw cash. Generally speaking the more the creature already wants to do the service the less you'd have to pay. It's the same reason that Lesser Planar Binding is also the Dispose Of Dead BBEGs spell.

>Wizard: *casts spell*
>Barghest: Blarg! I am a Barghest! Why have you summoned me, mortal?
>Wizard: I want you to eat that dead bad guy there.
>Barghest: And what do I get out of this?
>Wizard: You get to eat that dead bad guy there.
>Barghest: You know what, let me give you my business card...

>>14513444
*rimshot*

>>14513600
No, that costs extra.

>>14513608

You're thinking of a rimjob.

>>14513552
600 gp pays for a task that takes up to 1 minute per caster level.

Given that it's a 4th level spell...

>>14513675
"Seven minutes. That's how long I have to play with you."

This thread is just another "I want to be the little girl" isn't it?

For shame /tg/

STILL no sauce on OP?

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

>>14513720
I want to be the little girl.

There, it is now. Actually, it's a discussion of an interesting way of getting rid of villains while offering a chance at redemption, tricks for GMs to play, and cheats for "immortality".

Wants to be the little girl also works though.

>>14513925

I believe some chaps also offered ideas for turning yourself into a hiveminded harem for eternal sex orgies.

>>14513944

Wait, if your party encounters a Hivemind Harem, does that count as a single creature?

Once played a telepath (psion) in a level 1-20 campaign. At 18th level and nearly two years of playing the same characters, the party found itself facing an epic level cleric of Vecna, the BBEG of that particular adventure. During the battle, my character found himself perilously close to death and so, having an instantaneous True Mind Switch prepared, I used it on the cleric and succeeded. However, unbeknownst to the any of us, the cleric too was nearly dead and, because my character was unable to control the divine magics inherent in a ritual started by the cleric, the magic backfired and evaporated my new found body, soul and all, delivering my Fharlanghn-aligned telepath into the hands of Vecna.

The party then proceeded to quickly and summarily beat the cleric — who was now inhabiting my character's body — until he was unconscious. After a bit of OOC deliberation of the situation and loot, the the wizard's player, who was obviously contemplating his own ideas during that time, finally said that he casts Programmed Amnesia.

>>14514737
My character's soul was tightly in the grips of Vecna, and while the party wholeheartedly agreed that they would have to eventually go in after me, they also knew that they had to somehow keep my body alive. So, the wizard made the evil cleric think he was me, sans the fact that he was now a cleric and not a psion. With the negative levels bestowed by the True Mind Switch power, from that point on my character became an 18th level cleric with an oddly spotty memory regarding much of his past.

With the campaign continuing for six months after the fact, the rest of the party of obviously wary of my character for most of that time. And while he never regained his memories, he did eventually learn that he wasn't the real "him", especially since my original character was ultimately corrupted by Vecna, becoming the final BBEG of the campaign. In the end, he didn't really care and spent the rest of his life living peacefully as the once powerful psion.

>>14514237
Only if it's a swarm.

Though on the other hand, best Engulf attack *ever*.

>>14514780
And, be honest. Would you really mind?

God, these things can be put to perverted uses.

A Hivemind Harem Swarm appears.
It uses Sexy Engulf
It is very effective

>>14515536
The only monster in creation whose victims die happy.

And suddenly D&D stands for 'Dungeons and Dominatrixs'.

And with the mind control/cloning/etc.. you'll probably have roving hive mind swarms trying to Catch them All. Capturing evil monsters or villians, then turn them into monster girls with linked personalities.

Then evil wizards will get the hang of it and suddenly you have army sized swarms of things battling each other like giant orgy amoebas with the winner gaining more mass/people/creatures.

It's almost like a D&D version of a grey goo scenario.

>>14516344
This is how the world ends, this is how the world ends, not with a bang but with a wizard named Bob. All six billion and three of them, 1:3 male to female ratio and all.

I vote for archiving?

>>14519062

Go for it.

>>14515800
>victims die happy.
They don't die, per se. Unless you count mindraping to be death, which has been argued.

>>14519420
Why do I smell BBEG?

Same one who voted for archiving last night, newfag here.

So... how do we do that? >..>

>>14523417
Tis done.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/14506111

I took care of it. <33 Many thanks to those who contributed in thread, hope it all works. Had some odd errors.

>>14521452
Th-th-that's just the aftershave I use!

Spent all this time filling forms just to read it's already archived, dammint.

I have 2 posts saved as img-pasta, good thread is good.