Character advancement is free-form, with XP investment improving skills and attributes. Virtues are extremely difficult to improve, and shouldn't change much over the course of a typical game. Techniques range from new combat moves (such as the jump attack and sword beam) to unique racial talents (zora creating an electrical field) and passive abilities (being able to walk across shifting sand unhindered). Most techniques have a skill or virtue prerequisite before they can be purchased. Certain races may recieve XP discounts or lower prerequisites for certain techniques.

Core races consist of Deku Scrub, Goron, Kokiri, Rito, Zora, Hylian, Gerudo and Sheikah, with more under discussion. Each race gets a couple nifty abilities (eg, Gorons can curl into a ball and roll around, Zora can breathe underwater, and so forth). Humans (which include Hylians, Gerudo and Sheikah) instead get a +1 to the Virtue of their choice (though this can't be applied to put any Virtue over the usual starting limit of 4), and get discounts on certain techniques associated with their race. No other races get any bonuses to Virtues. Each race also has a Mass score, which affects movement speed, getting knocked/pushed around, use of the hookshot/clawshot, and so forth.

Damage is measured in hearts, and can be dealt in fractions of up to 1/4 heart. Your character has hearts equal to 2 + Physical, making the minimum number of hearts 3. Hearts can be increased by increasing your Physical value, and by obtaining Pieces of Heart and Heart Containers, which will be distributed as rewards for beating bosses and tough puzzles and the like.

Magic spells and items use Magic Power (with a basic attack spell using 2MP.) The Magic Meter is divided into blocks, each with 6MP. Starting MP is equal to 6 x your Mental value, or one block per Mental. Additional blocks can be aquired by improving your mental score and as rewards (like Heart Containers)

Hey, a new LOZ thread. So have we decided what the Triforce would do if one had a piece? Such as, having the Triforce of power causes you to always succeed in Power rolls?

>>15334060
>Virtues are extremely difficult to improve, and shouldn't change much over the course of a typical game.

How might someone advance a virtue?

>Suggested issue needing addressed to get the ball rolling:

>Magic and songs
How should we handle effects (such as buffs and utility effects) that shouldn't scale to the number of successes on a check? In the last thread, two options were suggested:
1. Have these types of spells/songs automatically succeed, but have skill rank and/or Virtue prerequisites for their use.
2. Require an unopposed skill check to determine success or failure.

Though a solid consensus was never reached, opinion seemed to be leaning toward a compromise between the two, since there was some doubt as to whether skill checks alone would serve as a suitable barrier to use of these effects by characters without enough ranks in the relevant skill. However, this was never thoroughly examined, and the issue is still open for discussion. See the archived thread for details; discussion of this topic starts roughly midway down.

Also, while most of the spells from the video games have been statted out already, we could use some new material to fill out the spell list, and we have pretty much nothing in the way of songs.

>Techniques
We have a fair number made already, but we could definitely use more, particularly for skills other than |melee|.

>>15334139
perhaps claiming a triforce or being granted the power. or perhaps rigorous training in that virtue. DM's discretion.

>>15334139
Virtues can be advanced by paying XP, but at a very high price -- 5 x the next level.

For reference, here's the XP award guide:

1 XP just for showing up to the session
1 XP for generally making steady progress in a session
1 XP each for smaller milestones (beating a miniboss, figuring out a major puzzle in a dungeon, completing a minor sidequest)
2 XP each for major milestones (beating a dungeon boss, completing a big sidequest)
1 XP for each instance of particularly good RP, creative problem-solving, etc.

So a typical session would probably yield somewhere around 3-5 XP. You'd need to save up for a while to raise your Virtues.

>>15334152
GM rewards are definitely a viable means of increasing Virtues, yes. Though GMs should certainly be advised to do so quite sparingly.

hey guys which eyes do you prefer?
Left -OoT style
Right - Mine

I prefer mine over OoT style. I never really liked their eyes but whats your opinion? I know alot of you requested more OoT styled work

>>15334375
I like your style better. The eyelashes don't need to be so ostentatious like they are in OoT. Also, your style sort of reminds me of how the illustrations looked in the older games.

>>15334375
i'm sorry to be pushy about this but i'm working on the picture now and would like some feedback before I could continue

>>15334517
i tried going back to they way it was drawn in OoT
I loved the freedom and cutesy style of WW much more
but I found a middle-ground which works for this picture

lol also sorry for late post

>>15334375
I think I actually prefer the one on the left. The eyelashes make her look a bit more feminine.

>>15334375
if it's spose to be female then one on left. one on right is too androgynous

bumpin with some awesome art Cz did in the last thread

How would things like classes work in this game?

Also, is there a PDF to reference?

>>15336090

I believe the consensus is "No classes. No way, no how."

>>15336143

And as for a PDF book or some sort of reference for the rules?

>>15336359
right now the wiki is all we have since the system is still in the works. Once we come to agreement on everything we'll put the game through playtesting. Whatever flaws playtesting reveals will be dealt with, it will be playtested some more and then hopefully we will be able to put together a pdf.

>>15336399

I feel dumb because I didn't even SEE the Wiki!

Is there a way to get in on the playtesting?

buuuuuuuuuump c'mon guys don't let this lose steam this late in the game! you've come too damn far!

one more bump before I go to bed

this is great stuff but tuesday morning is probably not the time to be finishing it off. wait for the evening time hordes for that.

Sorry I wasn't able to add much to the last thread, been without a computer the past few days.

>>15334143
At first glance, it seems to me that giving skill prerequisites for spells and songs helps to make up for the fact that individual spells won't have many techniques. A magic user could have a technique that modifies the power or range of certain spells, but they can never be as versatile with a single spell as a warrior can be with a sword.

A prerequisite also makes the Music skill more important to level, since many songs wouldn't need to be rolled for outside of combat or when using it to attack. Otherwise there's little motivation to level it up.

>>15334375
>>15334522
Go with your own style, definately. The current drawfaggotry is all over the place in terms of style - which is a good thing. Your style reminds me of Wind Waker anyway, which we can definately use more of.

For Instrument we should have something like a description of mats and parts that any particular race uses, and maybe put it into the race section and let the player describe his particular instrument. Zoras use bones from fishes and shells to make their instrument, Gorons use stones and hides, deku scrubs use leafs and wood, and so on.

>>15340197
>A prerequisite also makes the Music skill more important to level, since many songs wouldn't need to be rolled for outside of combat or when using it to attack. Otherwise there's little motivation to level it up.

The idea was that requiring an unopposed check to successfully use the spell/song could provide the incentive to rank up in |music|, but the tricky part would be figuring out if this is actually feasible, and if so, how to set the check difficulties. Prerequisites would be much simpler, but would make |magic| and |music| work less like the other skills, and more like techniques.

So it really comes down to whether we'd prefer simplicity or consistency.

>>15334125
Immortality. If you are stabbed through the heart, you can pull it out and stab the guy who stabbed you. If you die from falling into magma, a pit or similar, time rewinds to prevent that happening. If you die of old age, you are reincarnated years later.

As for getting a piece of the Triforce:
-You must have 6 in a virtue.
-Someone must have split the Triforce (Touching it, wishing etc.)
-You must obtain it, one way or another.
-The GM must let you. (This is the hard part.)

The Triumph Forks are 3H |Melee| weapons. There are only three of them, if any. They are rumored to slay evil, make amazing sallad and grant wishes.

>>15340327
An argument could be made that |Music| and |Magic| are fundamentally different from the other skills, if only in ways of use.

Fun fact: The ancient Greeks used the word for "playing a song" as the same word for "casting a spell".

So can I just ask

What would adventuring in Hyrule even be like? I mean... the majority of the games are about Link saving Princess Zelda from Ganon.

How would you have a fair and balanced party when the majority of the game's fluff is about one guy saving a girl from another guy? It seems like it'd just be calling for one PC getting all the attention or a Forgotten Realms style, "Oh you want your PC's to matter? TOO BAD! Link saves the day!" type of thing.

Also... can I make a random dungeon creator table?

>>15340834

I had a small idea for |Instrument|. It's gonna be very conceptual so run with me on this.

In zelda the smaller the song the more broad the magic was, and the longer it is the more specific the effect of the song was. Plus adding certain words to the name of the song could alter the effect of the spell your song is casting.

So then why do we create a 2 to 4 tab system for casting songs. For example.

A low rank character can use songs that only hold two key tabs that make up the song. Not including smaller words like "the" and "of" a low ranking character can have enough knowledge in magic to be able to cast something like the Sun Song, or Song of Healing.

Maybe we can make a system where switching words around would effect the outcome of the song in question, and we can have it where the |Instrument| user must purchase "Lyrics" like Techs to be able to switch up their song's variables in casting.

Or we can have a basic tech where people who are not very well influenced in music have a tech called "Aleatoric" which is you fuck around with notes at random and get a random effect, while dangerous it can do something from the low level variable list.

bump

>>15341038

If somehow we could pull this idea up it would be very very cool indeed, but i dont like the lyrics idea or the alleatoric. Also i dont like how changing the name of the song could have any effect in its magic, i can see adding more notes to the song but thats it.

>>15340939

>can I make a random dungeon creator table?

Like.... basically, what I'm thinking here is, an easy way for GM's to create a dungeon's location, what sort of enemies/environmental hazards it has, what the required "Item" you need to get through it would be and what it's final boss would be.

>>15341038

Allow me to use a better example. Every song is required to have a word like "Song", "Lullaby, "Ballet", ect. The player can mix or match variable words to the songs title by purchasing lyrics.

"Song of Fire"
"Ballet of Friendship"
"Song of Wealth"
"Calling Kin"
"Moblin Maestro"

And so on and so forth.

Rank 1 - Own 1 2 Word Songs
Rank 2 - Own 2 2 Word Songs
Rank 3 - Own 2 2 Words Songs/Own 1 3 Word Song
Rank 4 - Own 2 2 Words Songs/Own 2 3 Word Songs
Rank 5 - Own 2 2 Words Songs/Own 3 3 Word Songs
Rank Six - Own 2 2 Words Songs/Own 3 3 Word Songs/ Own 1 4 Word Song

>>15341038
This stands to be very interesting, but it would be really tricky to balance properly. Open-ended stuff is always the most abusable.
Plus it would probably mean we'd have to completely throw out the idea of songs as acquired "items".
Though we could have the "lyrics" be acquired (rather than purchased), with how you can apply and combine them being dependent on skill ranks and techniques...and it would be a good way to distinguish between magic and music -- magic is rigid and defined, while music is more flexible and spontaneous.

At any rate, it definitely has potential.

>>15341109
A random dungeon creator probably wouldn't be terribly useful for this game, since dungeons will need to be more or less custom-made according to the party's capabilities. But I suppose it can't hurt, go for it!

Does anyone know of some online emulator for the Ocarina or something similar? It would be awesome for players to actually play the song they were using in l-game.

Also, difficulty could go from 3 notes (basic songs in OOT and WW) up to 6 or 8 notes.

>>15341256

No soap. All I get is just crappy flash game knockoffs or purchasing a Ocarina online. However it does state that theres a phone app for a Ocarina.

Da-Na?

Awesome drawfaggotry all around, guys.

>>15341109

>Like.... basically, what I'm thinking here is, an easy way for GM's to create a dungeon's location, what sort of enemies/environmental hazards it has

Covered here in minimal detail: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Legend_of_Zelda_RPG/GM_Resources#Dungeon_Design
(If you want to add to what's there, be my guest.)

>what the required "Item" you need to get through it would be and what it's final boss would be.

Not totally covered yet, but if I get the Tag system working just right, you can make whatever "Item" you want (surfboard, 10 foot pole, etc.) and slot the right sort of puzzles and enemies in ("Oh no, there's a killer wave coming towards us!", "How can I get any grip on this wheel? There's just a hole in the side.", etc.).

>>15342311
On the subject of tags, a lot of them have weird or backwards names. The "Burn" tag doesnt mean an object burns things, it means that it can be burned. Why not change the name to Flammable or Burnable instead of Burn? Likewise for Cut for swords, why not use Edged instead?

TL;DR: Tags should be adjectives instead of verbs.

>>15342756
Or even adverbs for tools, like thieving, Grappling, blowing, sucking, or flipping.

>>15342820
Protip: those are still adjectives. At least if you're using them to describe a noun.

They could also be verbs or nouns, depending on the context. Isn't the English language fun?

[nospoilersontg]The answer is "no".[/nospoilersontg]

Sun's Song
-A powerful song that harnesses the sun itself.
Double Action
Effect 1- Change day to night or night to day. You and your companions alone are aware of the change; other people continue their schedules while you and your allies are "frozen" in time.
Effect 2 - Make a Music/Courage attack against every undead creature within 10 spaces. On a hit, you Paralyze the creature for 2 rounds.
[Split into two songs? One for the time effect (Song of Passing) and another for the attack?]


Song of Healing
-This song soothes broken bones and broken souls equally well.
Double Action
Effect 1 - You and each ally within 10 spaces of you regains 5 hearts. (once per dungeon?)
Effect 2 - (something about relieving spirits?)

Command Melody
-A chilling refrain transplants your consciousness into a friend's body.
Double Action
You take control of a willing ally on their next turn. When they make a check, you can choose to use their Skill level or your own.
While in control of an ally, you cannot take actions yourself and are helpless.

Wind's Requiem
-The wind heeds your command, whipping through you to the direction you ask of it.
Double Action
You change the direction of the wind to one of the 8 directions.
(moving in the direction of wind while gliding or using a sail could double your movement, and going against the wind could halve your movement.)

>>15344739
Considering how relatively uncommon undead are in the LoZ games, I think keeping both effects of the Sun Song under one heading should be fine.

>>15344828
True.
On a similar note, though, when encountering undead, what's to stop the party's bard from playing constantly and stunlocking all the monsters? Songs might need some kind of cooldown (that varies between songs) to balance out- they're basically the 4E rituals for this game in terms of utility.

>youpap first
No, youpap first.

>>15345002
Agreed. Would a five-round cooldown be sufficient, or should we set it higher than that?

>>15344739
>Song of Healing
>Effect 2 - (something about relieving spirits?)
How about
>roll Music/?? in place of Sway/?? to soothe

>>15344828

That could change depending on setting and DM.

> mplander striking
Captcha has proven to be a power mage who has stricken the landscape with his dark and twisted magic. Friends we must rise to the challenge and protect the vland.

Of course Songs should require a skill check. Playing a song requires playing a musical instrument which requires skill and there is most definitely a chance of failure.

>>15345640
Only in certain cases should it be necessary though. Something like trying to play the Sun's Song before the castle guard discovers you makes sense for a skill check. Not so much in a non-tense situation.

"...3, 1, 1, and 1."
"Okay. You fail to call your horse. Want to try a third time or should I assume you guys are walking to the lake?"

>>15341256
Just use Project 64 and an OOT rom.

>>15345640
This. Maybe increased difficulty/lowered depending on whether or not they've memorized the song, the instrument they're using, and other stats?

After all, playing the song of storms on a wooden flute won't have the same effect as a fairy ocarina from the sacred woods or even the Ocarina of Time...

>>15345482
Song of Healing can put spirits (Poes, ghosts, etc...) to rest, aid the ill and mentally disturbed, and even break curses that overlap with the above if played on a potent instrument.

>>15341256
>difficulty could go from 3 notes (basic songs in OOT and WW) up to 6 or 8 notes.
I like this idea. Fluffwise we could say that it's the number of different notes played in the first measure or two, and once the first 1 or 2 measures is played successfully the song takes over much like in teh gaems.

>>15340939
You are the everyman. The town guard, the people of castle town, all those men and women who just walk in the background and give quests. Hero or no, there are evils to be fought, treasures to be found, places to explore.

But without the direct, personal protection of the goddesses, you'll be in for a rougher time of it.

http://youtu.be/zLzaZ_HXmjw

I feel the need. Request me bros.

>>15345887

Swingan
Jumpan
Swimman
Climban

Or someone holding a bunch of rupees.

>>15345887
could you draw a hyrulian female asking for directions from a deku scrub

>>15346075
>why can't I hold all these rupees

>>15346075
>>15346114
>>15345887
this please

>>15344739
>Wind's Requiem
should probably just stop wind based on the name. what you have there is more like Command Wind or sumfin

>>15346089

>>15346343
This is just tooooo cute! Love it. Thx so much CZ i will treasure it forever.

>>15346160

Ask and ye shall receive.

>>15346343
Awww.
I wish I could contribute to the drawings, but I can't upload images and seem to have lost the ability to draw. This is the best I could do:
http://i.imgur.com/RnNUm.jpg

>>15346225
http://www.zeldawiki.org/Wind's_Requiem

>>15346475

The fuck you talkin bout Willis? Thats awesome! You could totally use that for the book we can play it off like it was some guy recording his first sighting of the monsters in his book.

>>15346475
a disappointing oversight
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/requiem

>>15346500
Hmmm.
That could make up for my lack of a tablet, and I did want to do illustrations for the monster section...

Someone throw me some monsters. Except moblins, those things are impossible.

rolled 10 = 10

>>15346571
Stalfos or gibdo maybe?

>>15346449
This is awesome!
btw I like your style and I think it really fits the look and feel of a zelda game while still being very stylistically distinct

Better start finding Gold Skultulas bro.

Now, I'm just going to throw this in here, as it has no bearing on the game. But I think whenever a player decides to play a song in-game, they should have to play it on a real instrument.

>>15345887
a Kokiri hidin up in a tree all feral hunter style with a slingshot ready to fire

>>15346571

> mfw when you can't draw a Like-Like.

If you have Rito planned out and you can play a Deku Shrub, then surely Koroks must be playable.

How would a Korok work?

Nope. Can't draw tonight.

Have some octoroks, though.
http://i.imgur.com/xpMzb.jpg

>>15346926
how do YOU think playing a Korok should work? Feel free to use the wiki as reference. This is an open note test.

>>15346966
Maybe like Dekus but with the Rito's flying ability.

So, would items like the Fire Rod have their own effect or just allow casting of a certain spell?

>>15349296
Um...yes?
It would probably be most accurate to say that we would have stats for the effects of the Fire Rod, but this same effect could be produced by other means of obtaining the spell (some other item, a Great Fairy blessing, learning from a sage, etc) if the GM sees fit.

In fact, we already do have stats for the Fire Rod:

Fire Rod - Power
The air shimmers as a searing bolt of flame streaks toward the target.
Attack
Cost: 4
Treat as an attack with range 10. Damage increment: 1.5 [Fire]
Enemies damaged by this attack catch fire for 2 rounds, taking 1/4 heart of damage each round.

TINGLE TINGLE LOOMPA!

I've brought it up before and I will do again: Harp of Ages anyone? Didn't you just love those blue portals that looked just so out of place?

Also, we got rid of the |Tool| skill didn't we?

>>15351294
Yup.
A large part of the tenth or eleventh thread was arguments for/against the |Tool| skill.
I think the consensus was a (for some reluctant) agreement that it was to be scrapped.
I kinda miss it ;_;

>>15351315

I've stricken (right word?) it out on the wiki, but not removed it completely. I liked it too and was trying to keep it for sentiment sake, but to be honest it was useless...

>>15349971
1+1/2H of damage per success? That's a bit too powerful, especially for something that does ongoing damage too. I've never used it in a game, but would 3/4H or 1H be more appropriate?

I wonder if a universal status effect for Burning is appropriate. It could work along with the tag system and burn up Flammable items.

>>15352700
Fire is nasty stuff...

Zora/Deku are especially weak to it. Do our rules reflect that?

Wow people are seriously crying out for Koroks. I'll try and make this work.

Korok (2 Mass, 8 Movement)

Korok Flight: Korok can sprout propellor like leaves and fly a number of spaces equal to half their speed as a move action, and remain in the air. When the Korok is hit by an attack they lose their concentration and fall the ground.

Flammable: Korok take 2x Fire damage.

>>15353611

Heres one more racial to consider for Koroks.

Green Stealth: Korok gain a +1k0 to |Stealth| rolls.

Ya know because their friggin' magic trees. Their tiny trents, you best be magic or have eagle eyes to notice these guys.

>>15353721
I thought we weren't giving anyone bonuses to Skills?

(Also giving him +1 |Stealth| rank does the same thing, except he rolls one dice less when maxed out)

>>15353771

Okay then scratch to the stealth. Their weak to fire being plants, and they can remain airborn at half their speed with a instant drop if their struck by anything.

Does that sound fair?

Also I just did some research on Twili. Based on the story on them, before they we're banished to the Twilight Realm, they we're a race of Hylian that just used a dark form of magic. So should we just make Twili a Sub-Race of Human?

>>15353803
Their = possessive form of "they." "Their weakness is fire."
They're = contraction of "they are." "They're weak to fire."
With that out of my system, that sounds reasonably fair. Just two points that should be touched on before anything's committed with that: should skillful Koroks be able to pick themselves up mid-air as they're knocked down (e.g., with a save, or a skill roll), or is that covered in the defense roll? Is there a maximum height Koroks can reach, or are they limited only by how high they want to risk falling from?

>>15353845
Twili have undergone a much more radical evolution than Gerudo or Sheikah have, so I'm a bit more slanted towards a unique race, but a sub-race could work. Either way, their radical light allergy would have to be addressed first before they get nominated for PC-dom.

>>15353845
Most of the info is just theories or speculation, though.
If we're including stuff like that, we might as well mix them in with the Dark Tribe from Majoras Mask.
(Dark tribe makes horrible mask, gets banished, vs. dark tribe makes horrible mask, unknown fate)

>>15354343
That's practically canon. Also, I'd love to see more of the Ancient Kingdom of Ikana in fluff. Maybe even a background (Shaman/Ikana blood in the family)?

Exhibit A:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPl9XLylE4c

Exhibit B:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkqZ70UPKfs

>>15354341
Twili take 1/2H damage/round in sunlight, heal 1/2H/round in shadow, artificial light does nothing?
And perhaps a weakness to Light-based attacks as well, in case the PCs piss off a Light Spirit.

>>15354343
You could also make them the people who were mentioned in the prolog of Minish Cap.
Those who tried to take the Force.

>>15354369
That's stretching it a bit. Maybe have the last bit left ambiguous.

Have we statted Dark Link/ how to make something like it? Throwing PCs at dark-sided mimics is a time-honored RPG tradition, after all...

>>15354399
But if you're playing WFRP, it's very hard to make dark-sided mimics.

>>15352700
The Fire Rod is a pretty powerful item in LttP, but you're right, 1H would probably be more balanced. And more accurate, now that I test it out -- it seems I remembered it as being much more powerful than it actually is. It's definitely strong, but not as strong as I'd thought it was.

Maybe I was just thinking of those certain enemies that were weak against it...or maybe getting it mixed up with the magic rod from Link's Awakening? I dunno, at any rate, yeah, the damage increment for the Fire Rod should be 1H.

>>15354399
I think this works perfectly to connect the games.
Eveil tribe tries to take over Hyrule and the Triforce.
They created many evil artifacts like the Fused Shadow and Majoras Mask.
After they were defeated the gods anished them into the twilight realm.

>>15354399
Use the Dark Mirror from Four Swords. Have the Dark PCs be like living mirrors: they move independently, but attack simultaneously. (Or, you know, attack on their own turn.) They should probably just have one of the weapons the PCs have. Make the players either switch weapon or switch opponent.

Note that this is all based on Ocarina of Time. If you want to make Dark Link like he is in the Four Swords manga (Same but eeeviil), that is fine too.

Oh and if the PCs are evil just make the Dark ones the personification of their own evilness. Then they can absorb themselves and become the most evil being in the universe!

>>15354572
Personality-wise, they should either be mindless, silent killing machines or vicious sadists. Possibly both. Because honestly, sentient doppelgangers lead to dark places. (pun intended)

>>15353611

Anyone have any objections before I put this in the wiki? Going one. Going twice.

Opps sorry I didnt see this. We can have a tech for them to be able to spend a action to pick themselves up as an interrupt. Something to shoot for later down the road.

>>15354623
Nope. Go for it.
(Just remember removing the stealth)

>>15354723

Koroks Added to Races.

>> Captcha: forsti includes

Captcha agrees with this motion.

>>15354361

I wrote this just a couple of threads ago. What do you guys think fits proper for the Twili?

Twili (4 Mass 6 Movement)

1) Gain 1/4th Heart each round while standing within shadow.

2) Twili lose 1/4th Heart each round while standing within sunlight. This can be negated if the Twili is covered in heavy cloth.

3) Take x2 damage from Light based attacks.

4) Take half damage from Shadow based attacks.

(Alternative Racial/Could convert to a Tech)

5) While standing in a shadow, Twili can warp instantly at their movement +2 for as long as the shadow's length allows them to move.

>>15355105
I think all of the first four together would be a good set for the Twili, with the fifth one as a racial technique.

>>15355105
Yup, looks good. Perhaps add a note thet torchlight does not count as sunlight or shadow.

>>15355105
I think the healing needs some work. For one, Twili don't have any particular affinity for shadows; it's the special pseudo-light of the Twilight Realm that they live in (I don't subscribe to "dark magic" necessitating shadow). Further, the only healing they've demonstrated in the game was the ability for the beast-like soldiers to resurrect their fallen comrades whenever there was just one left.

Personally, I can see light abstinence helping them recover from their light-based injuries, but not their normal ones. However, putting in that stipulation is unnecessary complexity; I say just leave out healing entirely.

I was thinking that they'd be good for teleportation, though (which you mentioned in your 5th bullet). As an ability, let them teleport short distances? There's a couple variables with that that we can use to keep it balanced: distance traveled, cooldown (if any), magic cost (if any), environment (not in sunlight?), etc.

Another ability would be better vision in the dark, due to their standard environment.

And donezo-

Twili has been added.

>>15355275

In hindsight, the healing factor does sound alittle extreme, maybe switching that out for the warp would be best if we just implement a cooldown, or a MP cost to prevent people Wall Mastering all over the place.

So if Cooldown how about daily.

If MP Cost how about 4 MP.

>>15355346
4 MP sounds like a reasonable cost for the shadow warp ability.

>>15355346
It does come down to how well we think teleportation can be exploited in this genre. I think daily may be a little much. If it was down to about 3 movement units it'd keep them from out-right scaling cliffs and whatnot, and if we brought the recharge down to a number of minutes, it keeps the Twili in the game when he accidentally teleports into a ruined, sealed-off room that he doesn't have the tools to escape (or worse, a Dinofols den).

That'd be my take on it. The strongmen can use it to position themselves tactically, the mages can use it to get out of dodge, and the sneaks can use it to get places where they couldn't.

The MP method probably works fine.

Since magic spells are treated as items, can we say that you have to "wield" a spell to be able to cast it, like you would wield a rod or sword? That might keep sword and board fighters from shooting magic everywhere, as well as well as making non-iteml spells no more powerful than spells tied to medallions and rods.

>>15356365

I like this idea, so it shows what magic is tied to what kind of item to invoke the magic to be casted.

Also heres something I drew up. Gonna do another 4 different race group.

>>15356365
so basically you have to have your hands free to cast spells? sounds good to me

>>15356365
Sounds fair to me.

Also kind of reminds me of Morrowind, but that's pretty much unrelated, lol.

if spells and songs aren't bought with experience then how exactly do they work? are they awarded in game by the GM according to what the players will need to solve the puzzles in the next dungeon?

>>15357458
They're awarded by the GM, I assume, at least in the case of puzzle-essential items. Players might be able to purchase less essential spells (like Shield) or magic items with Rupees, but again, the GM is the one stocking the shops.

Also, we might want to give GMs tips for limiting the amount of features in their campaign. Unless they really know what they're doing, things could get bloated if you try to combine lots of major features (like Dark World navigation and shrinking puzzles at the same time.)

WIP Kokiri Fighter

>>15357600
sweet
I wanted to take all the races you've drawn so far and do a racial line up type thing to put in the race section of the wiki, but the separate images of the goron and the zora weren't full colored yet and I couldn't find the original image of the hylian in this pic

>>15357749

>>15357749

Do you mean like this?

>>15357924
yes, but with all the races once you've gotten them all done. looks great so far

So I contributed to the first few of these threads but have missed out on the last eight or so.

Has anyone actually been playtesting this? Is the 1d4chan page up to date as far as what we have for rules?

>>15357924
That goron seems fucking huge. I mean, the average gorons weren't THAT much taller than adult Link, were they?

>>15358034

Easy fix in photoshop once everythings done. But then again whats wrong with an abnormally large Goron?

>Biggoron Sword Blacksmith.

>>15358034
yeah, the goron should probably only be about a head taller than the hylian, and the hylian and zora should be closer to the same height even if the zora is elderly and hunched over, if the goal is to show the average heights of the races in comparison to one another

>>15358059
Well, yeah, there are huge ones. That's why I said average. It's an awesome piece of art, but another poster made it seem like this was being used to illustrate racial appearance on the wiki, in which case we would want average specimens.

>>15358018
the 1d4chan page is pretty up to date, yes. as far as I know no one has been doing any testing yet. we're still trying to hammer out some more techniques, spells, and songs

>>15358092
well, that wasn't the original intention of the piece. I was going to take the original individual images of each of the races and scale them to average sizes and make a line up to put on the wiki, but the original pics before they all got put together into one pic weren't fully colored yet

>>15358117

Well heres what I got so far then. I'll update the pic when I finish the rest of em.

>>15358208
Amazing.

Biggoron Heritage
Perequisites: Physical 6, Goron
XP cost: High
Your default mass becomes 9.

If we do creature sizes for grids, this might increase the goron's space to a 2x2 space.

>>15358385

My god...

>>15358385
>9 mass
goooood lord!
would that mean your speed also becomes 1?

I wonder what purpose an adventuring party would have. Maybe it's in an era where the legendary Hero (i.e. Link) either hasn't shown up yet, or has attempted to save the world and failed somehow, leaving the PCs as the last remaining hope.

>>15358553
The same purpose they have in any setting. Making dangerous journeys, slaying monsters, finding treasure, maybe even foiling evil plots. It's a fairly dangerous world, and they don't rely on Link for everything. Not only does he disappear for many years at a time, but even when he's around he can't be everywhere at once, and he's usually off dealing with Ganondorf, who I doubt is the only person who decides it would be fun to be scheming and diabolical.

On the other hand, who says the players have to be good guys? Maybe they're bandits.

>>15358553
Maybe there have been many cases of missing children lately and the group goes into the nearby forest to make some investigations.
Then they come across a skull kid and need to catch him in order to get some information out of him.
And so on.

Heal
Actions: 2
MP: ?
Range: Touch
Duration: Instant
Make a Mental Wisdom roll. Target regains 1h per success.

Shield
Actions: 1
MP: ?
Range: Self
Duration: Sustained
Take half damage from all physical sources as long as Shield is sustained.

Fire
Actions: 1
MP: ?
Range: 10
Duration: Instant
Make a Mental Power roll. Target takes 1/2h Fire damage per success.

Perhaps for spells with scaling effects we could borrow from shadowrun a bit. The MP cost listed for the spell is per success and the player chooses how much MP he wants to use which limits the number of successes he can have. That way if you're casting heal on someone who's down to 1/4h but only has a max of 3h and you have a kept value of 4 on your roll you can choose to only use enough MP to give you a maximum of 3 successes so that you're not wasting MP on the extra success if you happen to roll all 4 successes. It could also help players manage their MP on attack spells when they start getting higher dice pools and keep values.

>>15359731
Considering the more basic spells (the ones you're going to be using most frequently, and for the little things) are only going to be 2 or 4 MP per use anyway, I don't think we need to use flexible MP costs to help players manage their MP.

Also, when you mention the rolls in those stats, it should be "[Virtue]-based |magic| roll". We want the |magic| skill to be worth more than just meeting prereqs, and the skill uses Mental by default.

>>15360009
I'm talking about MP costs scaling with successes on spells that have scaling effects rather than just having a flat MP cost. If someone's rolling 6k6 on a heal spell on someone who only has a maximum of 3 hearts (which is very plausible for starting characters) then he might want the option of spending 6 MP (assuming it cost 2 per success) rather than 12 when he only needs a maximum of 3 successes to get the job done. The Shield spell could be changed to give 1/4h damage reduction per success at 1 MP. You could spend 6 MP in the hopes of rolling all successes and getting 6/4h damage reduction, but then you'd have to spend 6 MP per round to keep it up as well. You might want to be more frugal with your MP and spend 2 MP for up to 1/2h reduction and only 2 MP per round. Say you take Fire as a starting spell. Wouldn't you want the option of spending 2 MP to do just enough to kill a rat and also be able to spend more MP against tougher enemies? It makes spell casting more dynamic and interesting than flat MP costs. This would also simplify setting MP costs when creating new spells compared to trying to set fixed MP costs for spells with scaling effects.

Thinking about buff/debuff spells, I think we should establish how bonuses and penalties work. In other systems that use the roll and keep system bonuses add to the dice pool increasing the chance of success while penalties subtract from the kept dice decreasing the degree of success. What do you guys think?

>>15360274
Sounds like a good idea as long as we keep them from stacking.
9k9 (current maximum) is already a lot of dice.
(Perhaps limit it to 10k10, with additional rolled dice being moved to kept, [at a ratio, probably] and additional kept being automatic successes?)

>>15360207
I think it's better to just have a flat cost and let it scale. That way you get more bang for your buck with a higher |magic| skill, whereas with scaling costs it doesn't matter how skilled you are, you're still getting X result per Y MP. Plus then you have a more meaningful choice between spells of different power levels. The basic Fire spell deals 1/2 heart per success for 2 MP, which might be all you need, but if you're facing down something a little stronger you might want to switch to the Fire Rod, which costs twice as much MP, but deals more damage. And I can't say I see how scaling costs would be all that much simpler to balance than flat costs.

A swordsman doesn't have to pay any sort of cost to let his |melee| skill add to the damage he deals, and an archer doesn't use more arrows to deal more damage with a |ranged| attack. Why should a mage have to drop more MP just to get the same scaling benefits that mundane characters enjoy?

>>15360315
Word.

So what do we have left until a playtest could begin? Do we need to make more items or something? And bosses?

>>15360274
I'd think this would be pretty much self-evident. Though we could also have buffs that give flat bonuses to things like weapon damage increment and armor bonus.

>>15360298
I agree that we need to keep buffs from stacking (and probably scaling as well), but I don't think a cap is necessary. Even getting to the current 9k9 cap is extremely difficult -- just maxing out the rolled pool would cost you 48 XP, which is quite a lot for this system -- so I don't think getting above 10 dice in a pool would come up all that often. It's still *possible*, of course, but I don't think we really need to worry too much about such a rare occurrence. If someone does manage to get such a huge dice pool, I'd say they've earned it.

>>15360315
in my experience I've had more fun with the scaling MP than with flat costs, but you have a good point about physical characters getting the scaling effects without any extra cost

>>15360339
We desperately need techniques. We have a bunch for |melee|, but only a handful for other skills.

Also, the techniques section on the wiki could use an update; some of those techniques need revised to reflect changes to the system (I see a few skills that were scrapped/rolled into others), and it's missing a lot of techniques that were proposed in previous threads. If someone could go through the archives and compile all the techniques that were statted out, that'd be great. I'd do it myself, but...I'm at work right now. I shouldn't even be writing this, lol.

>>15360370
Ugh, yeah.
Should we let people grab Techniques at chargen? How much XP should they get to spend on stuff? (Including stats, I presume?)

I propose that Magic covers stuff like direct damage, healing, protection, and maybe some utility spells (not that I can think of what those might be right now) while Songs covers environmental effects, buffs, debuffs, and perhaps some minor summoning. Also, the scaling effect of buffs and debuffs, rather than scaling the effects, should be to determine the duration of the effects.

>>15360387
We already have a system for starting stats that isn't XP based (easier to control min/maxing that way), but we should definitely figure out how much to allow for starting techniques.

Since the most basic techniques cost 2 XP, should we give that much at chargen, or should we allow more?

>>15360412
I'd say 2 XP at chargen/1 starting technique is plenty.

>>15360399
We agreed a long time ago that songs should be kept to mostly non-combat uses. And there's definitely precedent in the video games for magic to cover buffs (the Shield and Reflect spells from LoZ2, for instance).

Not to say that songs *can't* be useful in combat, but their combat applications should be kept as a secondary feature, typically requiring a little creativity (like using the Sun Song to paralyze ReDeads in OoT, or using music to beat those rabbit-looking things that crop up in some of the 2d games).

>>15360446
by buffs and debuffs I meant bonuses and penalties to rolls like a bard playing a rallying song to give his allies attack bonuses or something. "buffs" like Shield and Reflect would most definitely still fall under Magic.

>>15360478
in fact I even stated that Magic should cover protection spells, which Shield and Reflect would fall under

>>15360412
>>15360422
Give them 8XP to spend on Virtues, Attributes, Skills and Techniques.

Just roll the Technique/Skill part into one, and people can choose between having awesome skills or lots of techniques. Since they currently get 6 points to spend in skills (With a maximum of 3 ranks in a skill) this would simplify things.

>Example:
>Spend points on Virtues, no change
>Spend points on Attributes, no change
>Spend XP on Skills/Techniques/whatever

This would, among letting the GM choose the POWER LEVEL of the campaign, not really change a lot.
>Virtues cost 5xnext level, minimum 10XP
>Attributes cost 3xnext level, minimum 6XP (So you could up an attribute from 1 to 2 at the cost of having hardly any skills)
>Skills cost 1xnext level, meaning a maximum of 3 in a skill (1+2+3)
>Techniques cost between 2 and 8XP, so you could buy one to three (You need skills, after all)

This might be an awful idea, but I feel that the fact that the GM can change how powerful the PCs are could be important.

>>15360548
I don't think techniques are something that anyone should start with a lot of

>>15360568
at character creation I mean

I was looking through the 1d4chan page and I realised something odd.

The way the game works at the moment, all races are totally equal in stats, this means that a Goron is just as strong as a Kokiri.

Does this seem a bit weird to anyone else? Or is there some aspect I'm missing out on?

>>15360350
>I'd think this would be pretty much self-evident.
you'd think so, but maybe we should make it explicit by adding it to the basic system section of the wiki

>>15360568
True. I guess it depend son what techniques are available at low levels.
So how many techniques should there be (on average) for each rank in a skill?
I think someone suggested two cheap/one expensive before, with costs scaling as you go up in ranks.
Note that this is from before the current system for Ranks: we were discussing buying Techniques to advance in Ranks.

>>15360620
Gorons have higher Mass. They don't get pushed around quite as much.
And Physical isn't just Strength: it's how acrobatic you are (which Gorons... aren't), how sneaky you are, etc.
But yeah. I don't mind the whole "Racial Stereotype" thing, to be honest. Some creatures are just better at certain stuff than other ones.

>>15360644
"Always assume that you are talking to idiots", eh? I'm fine with that as long as it doesn't seem too patronizing.

>>15360620
we decided very early on that rather than enforcing racial stereotypes through game mechanics that we would let the players decide if they wanted to follow the archetypes or go against the norm. also in making this a classless systems we've tried to avoid making races de facto classes via attribute/skill bonuses

>>15358434
Maybe their movement becomes 3 or 4 (which is still slow for a 2x2 creature, because of the extra bulk they have to maneuver with.)
To be honest, I was sort of kidding when I threw it out there, but it would be fun to include.

>>15360422
Techniques: Players start with one free Technique worth 2XP at character creation.
If we use this, would it be fair to make early feats designed for Hylians, Gerudo and Sheikah normally cost 4XP, but would be discounted to 2XP for their respective races?

>>15360478
Even those kinds of buffs might fit better with Courage-based spells.

>>15360446
Sensitive Ears: When a song is played within 10 spaces of the creature, the creature takes X Hearts of damage.
(on that note, Digdogger could split when "bloodied", with the amount of damage done by the song being equal to half his Life. Pols Voice's could be destroyed outright by it.)

Is it ok if we use a similar bloodied mechanic for things like Darknuts? They have high armor and a moderate accuracy, high damage attack until you remove their armor (drop down their Life to half.) At that point, their armor is lowered, but they can now dodge (Acrobatic defense?) and have a high accuracy, moderate damage attack.

>>15360678
>"Always assume that you are talking to idiots", eh?
not so much. just that there's been a lot of "+1k1" and "+1k0" floating around and I figure by making it explicit we could just say "+1" and know that it always means "+1k0" while "-1" always means "-0k1". it's not just for people who are learning the system, but also for people who are helping build the system

>>15360686
I understand that but a Goron wizard would still be physically stronger than a hylian wizard, even though niether of them have trained for physcial strength.

I guess the "mass" statistic could be the altering factor in this measure though. Like, a combination of mass, power and physical decides lifting capacity or something

>>15360700
>If we use this, would it be fair to make early feats designed for Hylians, Gerudo and Sheikah normally cost 4XP, but would be discounted to 2XP for their respective races?
no. I don't like how the "Human" race is currently done anyway with all that discounted techniques crap. I had suggested keeping the +1 to a Virtue for Hylians, giving Sheikah some kind of bonus to resist illusions, and letting Gerudo get an extra Racial or Weapon technique at character creation, and even got some support from a couple of posters, but some other people were like "we should be working on the system before we worry about races blah blah blah" so I let it go for the time being. Now I'm bringing it back up again.

>>15360730
Mass already affects pushing and pulling. I don't see why it couldn't affect lifting as well.

however we decide to do starting equipment, the choices should include a spell book which comes with one spell and an instrument which comes with a song book and one song.
someone suggested earlier that since spells are treated as items you should have to have your hands free even when casting spells that aren't directly tied to an item. you could just have to read such spells from your spell book for the same effect. basically your spell book is your item for spells that aren't directly tied to magical items like canes and medallions

>>15360787
Because in this game mass appears to be size as well as weight

Picture a Deku Shrub picking up a rock as big as itself, now picture a Goron picking up the same rock

>>15360700
I think to account for human racial technique discounts, it would be best to have techniques bought with XP at character creation, rather than "pick one technique worth N XP or less". If humans get a 1 XP discount on racial techs, that means a human playing to their race's strengths can get 2 basic techniques at startup, which I think is better than giving them a single stronger technique, since it reflects the "humans are balanced and flexible" idea typical in RPGs.

>>15360769
What's so bad about the racial techniques system for human races? It highlights the cultural/ethnic differences, while maintaining that Gerudo, Hylians, and Shiekah are much more similar to each other than, say, Deku, Gorons, and Zora. It strikes me as an excellent way to distinguish the races, and I think having sharper distinctions between the three like you're proposing wouldn't be very accurate, given that the similarities between them far outweigh the differences, particularly by comparison with the other available races.

>>15360842
what's your point? a Goron would have much higher mass and therefore a much easier time lifting the rock of mass affected lifting like it does pushing and pulling

>>15360860
Sorry, I misread "couldn't" as "could" because I'm an idiot

>>15360548
You mean 8 XP after allocating Virtue/Attribute points, to be spent as they choose?

That sounds pretty good. Starting skills are already being purchased at the normal costs using the current system anyway, and it would give players a bit more flexibility.

>>15360884
>Starting skills are already being purchased at the normal costs using the current system anyway
check the wiki

>>15360907
Derp, reading comprehension fail. I somehow thought "1 point per rank" meant "1 point for rank 1, 2 points for rank 2, etc". Which is completely wrong...what was I thinking?

And it definitely wouldn't work to have skills at character creation be bought the same as they are for later advancement, because then to get the same results you'd need to give out something like 12 XP, which would be way unbalanced if we were allowing XP to be spent between skills and techs interchangeably for a starting character.

So yeah, probably best to keep starting skills as-is and just give out some XP for techniques to start. Though I guess we could allow players to use their starting XP on skills rather than techs if they want...though I don't see why anyone would want to do so.

>>15360860
Relative Mass could be used for this sort of thing. Perhaps it could use the mass categories thing from ealier

>>15360821
That sounds like a good idea. Especially since Tomes count as a 1/4H Physical Wisdom weapon.
Just as long as there are alternatives (Like a necklace of beads, or a bag of magic stones).

>>15360852
IT ENFORCES RACIAL STEREOTYPEEEEES
Seriously though, the same could be argued of River/Ocean zora, or Kokiri/Koroks (They evolved from eachother!)
Gerudo have that entire one-male-every-century thing, Shiekah probably have thousands of ancient forgotten techniques and weaponry(see:Shadow Temple) and Hylians are specifically the chosen people of the goddesses.
Despite their similarity, combining them is not really that fitting to the fluff.
It just irks me. Sorry for the rant.

>>15360884
Thanks. I agree on the flexibility bit: that's why I thought of the entire thing.

>>15360907
Yeah, it would have worked better with the old system we had. As is, the starting XP would have to be 12XP for skills + 2 for techniques, since the current system allows you to get up to 3 in two skills. (with six points to spend.)
aaand 14 points is too much.

>>15360842
Actually, maybe we should have Size as something different from Mass. Mass shows how dense you are (since a huge balloon would have high mass, but low Mass), while Size shows how many squares you occupy.
Standard enemies are 1 square, that Moblin King is 2x2, Morpheel is hugexHUGE, Morpha is THE ENTIRE ROOM...
I think I may have seen a problem.

How do we deal with bosses that are huge in a grid? Like, really, REALLY, huge? It's a staple of the games, after all.

>>15360984

Indeed, combining sheikah, hylians and gerudos has irked me too since somebody propposed it, just because they are more similar between eachother than the other races, it does not mean they are the same race. They are even culturally different from each other, and dont give me that sheikahs not appearing in many games crap, i think twili have appeared in just one game and we already have em added in the wiki.

>>15360769

Giving sheikahs resistance to illusion is a crappy racial feature (they arent capable to see trhough illusions by themselves but via items) , and giving one cirtue point to hylians is very powerful.

>>15360852
Hylians and Shiekah are practically identical, yeah. And there certainly are cultural/ethnic differences between Hylians and Gerudos, seeings as Gerudo is a tribe of warrior women who dwell exclusively in the desert. I think an extra combat technique illustrates that distinction just fine and isn't anywhere near comparable to the distinction between the other races. The only difference I know of between Hylians and Shiekah is that Shiekah all have red eyes and apparently can see through fake walls, hence the bonus to resist illusion. If you really want to have something showing how humans are all similar and maintain the "humans are balanced and flexible" trope, just give all three races a -1XP cost to all techniques since they're the only races that don't get exclusive racial techniques. The problem I have with the current Human block is that every time I try to create a technique I'm going to have to ask myself "which human race should get a discount to buy this" and try to justify it to myself, which I don't think I can do

>>15361061
>Giving sheikahs resistance to illusion is a crappy racial feature
It was all I could think of. Feel free to suggest an alternative.

>>15361077
Not every technique needs to be a racial technique, you know. It's perfectly acceptable to have a technique that no race gets a discount on; rather, if there's a technique that sticks out as something that a Gerudo or a Shiekah would be particularly suited for, they should get a discount.

The distinctions between the human races can easily be captured with the current system. Gerudo have an affinity for certain weapons and know how to get along in the desert? They get discounts on techs related to those weapons and desert mobility. Shiekah are good with stealth and illusions? Give them discounts on related techs to reflect that. The proposed changes basically amount to "rather than giving them a variety of things they can get at a discount, let's give them these specific things that could be purchased at a discount in the other system for free, and no discounts on anything else."

The only hard-and-fast distinctions between the races are cosmetic -- skin, eye, and hair color -- and the Gerudo's whole all-female thing. Aside from pointing out that male Gerudo are a once-in-a-century special exception (ie, automatic Mary Sue if you're a male Gerudo PC), none of this needs to be reflected in racial abilities. Other than that, it's all cultural, which technique discounts reflect perfectly.

>>15360984
>Especially since Tomes count as a 1/4H Physical Wisdom weapon.
I'd forgotten about that. Works out rather well then.
>Just as long as there are alternatives (Like a necklace of beads, or a bag of magic stones).
of course there would still be magic items that can be used to cast spells. an advantage of having a spell book could be a mid-level technique that let's you memorize a set number of spells so you can still cast the spells you have memorized while wielding a weapon/shield. you would still need to be wielding your magic item or tome for spells that you don't have memorized of course

>>15361139
Not all humans in the game fall into those 3 groups. There should be just plain Human and then choosing one of the 3 ethnicities should be optional. Of course this would require balancing the regular humans with the 3 subgroups.

>>15360274
>penalties subtract from the kept dice decreasing the degree of success
derp. this is what I meant:
>Penalties give you extra dice but require you to skim off the highest rolls before keeping (e.g., if you had a penalty of 2 dice on a roll of 2k3, you’d actually roll 4 dice and remove the two highest before keeping the next best three).

>>15361302
True...but what would vanilla humans get? Or rather, what would they get that would distinguish them from Hylians? Aside from the pointed ears and the vague "chosen race of the Goddeses" bit, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference between Hylians and regular humans.

>>15361404
Wait, what? That's just confusing.

Let's just do bonuses and penalties the way we have been -- +XkY or -XkY. It's straightforward and easy to understand.

>>15361445
what I had originally posted (bonus = +xk0, penalty = -0kx) made sense. maybe that's why I ended up posting that instead of the other thing. but apparently that's how other roll&keep systems do it

>>15361419
Hylians also supposedly have an affinity for magic that other humans don't possess
>According to the A Link to the Past instruction manual, Hylians were born with magic-infused blood, endowing them with psychic powers and skill in wizardry.
http://www.zeldawiki.org/Hylian

>>15361085
Maybe give them something that has to do with them being bodyguards/spies/assassins?
Or a bonus for knowing politics, since they were trained to guard the Hylian Royal family?
We are lacking a lot of non-combat techniques, to be honest. As is, the only things for social interaction are |Sway| and Spiritual.
I don't even know if we have something like Knowledge Checks or so.

>>15361419
Well, let's see:
Hylians have long ears to better hear the Goddesses. (I think Canon has them being better at Magic/Religous things)
Humans have short ears (read: are not the goddesses chosen people), but are otherwise identical

So if the bonus to virtues is supposed to represent being close to the Gods, I don't think Humans, Gerudo or Shiekah should get that.
Fuck, that makes everything more complicated.

>>15361529
Speaking of A Link to the Past...
Did Dwarves appear in any other game?

>>15361567
I don't think so

>>15361529
>Hylians also supposedly have an affinity for magic that other humans don't possess
>According to the A Link to the Past instruction manual, Hylians were born with magic-infused blood, endowing them with psychic powers and skill in wizardry.

Ah, now that's something we can work with!

So maybe something like:

>All human subraces: +1 Virtue point at character creation.
>Vanilla human: Racial techniques related to military (particularly cooperative tactics) -- humans/Hylians seem to be the only ones with an organized military.
>Hylian: Racial techniques have some overlap with vanilla humans, but with more |magic| and |sway|-related techniques and fewer martial ones.
>Shiekah: Racial techniques relate to stealth and illusions.
>Gerudo: Racial techniques relate to desert living and certain favored weapons (bows, scimitars, glaives).

>>15361542
>We are lacking a lot of non-combat techniques, to be honest. As is, the only things for social interaction are |Sway| and Spiritual.
>I don't even know if we have something like Knowledge Checks or so.

There was a |lore| skill at one point; I don't know when or why that got removed.

But at any rate, skills and techniques are mostly intended to represent things that require specific practice/instruction, rather than being a general part of life. We want to avoid the issue you see in some games like D&D 3.5 where certain skills are so narrowly useful that nobody really uses them, so we tried to condense things as much as possible. Many non-combat things are based on Virtue/Attribute checks, with no skill ranks involved, and |sway| covers most every form of social interaction you can think of, depending on which Virtue is applied.

We could include skill-less techniques for those who want to be particularly good at things that aren't really covered under the existing skills, but might be too narrow in scope to justify making a skill unto itself. For example, swimming under the current system simply uses Physical Courage, but someone who wants to be a particularly good swimmer (and not a Zora, of course) could perhaps purchase a low-cost technique that simply gives a flat bonus to swimming checks. Something like 2 XP for +1k1, maybe. Sort of a pseudo-skill, if you will.

>>15361635
good idea
maybe a Sprint technique that increases your running speed? or a Long Jump technique?

>>15361585
I like it.

>>15361635
This too.

>>15361585

Those are nice ideas.

>>15361667
Like Pegasus boots?

> If the kept dice total for a roll would ever be greater than the number of dice rolled, move points from keep to roll until this is no longer the case. For example, if your pool for a check would be 2k3, you roll 3k2 instead. A pool of 2k4 becomes 3k3, 2k5 becomes 4k3, and so on.

What exactly does that mean?
If I have to roll 3 dice but could use the 4 highest then I move one of those to the other side?
Like rolling 4 and keep 3?

>>15362142
>If I have to roll 3 dice but could use the 4 highest then I move one of those to the other side?
>Like rolling 4 and keep 3?

Yep, that's exactly right.

>>15362142
yes

>>15362193
So let's say I've got: Courage 3, Physical 3.
And I want to use my Shield (Rank 2).
Then I have to roll 4 dice of which I can keep the 4 highest dice. In short 4k4.
Then my enemy would roll his number of dice let's say 4k4 as well.
And if my total is higher then his I managed to block?

>>15362279
>And if my total is higher then his I managed to block?
you had it right up till that part
say you roll 1, 4, 3, 5 and your enemy rolls 4, 3, 2, 3
you compare your highest to his highest
5 > 4
4 > 3
3 = 3 (tie goes to defender)
1 < 2
you got more successes so you successfully block

>>15362279
Let's say that you roll 6,4,2,2 and he rolls 5,5,3,1.
6>5, Success!
5=5, No
2<3, No
2>1, Success!

For each success you deal one Damage increment of damage- a sword has a DI of 1/2 Heart, so two successes would do 1 Heart of damage.
If he doesn't have armor, in which case it might lower the Damage Increment.

>>15362352
Sorry, you're the one defending. Misread that.

You take one Damage Increment of damage for every success. Having more successes than the opponent does not cancel out damage if the opponent also had a success.

>>15362352
I was one of the people who said that ties should go to defender way back when, but I can't remember why now. the whole point of the opposed roll is that the defender sets the success threshold. meeting the success threshold should be a success.

>>15362352
we decided on unopposed attack dice being auto-success, right? do unopposed defense rolls cancel successes?

>>15362352
>>15362347
Ah okay.
So the more dice the more damage I could take/deal/avert.
And if either side has more dice then the other then these are basically free hits, because they can't be countered.

I attack an enemy and roll 4,3,5,2. and he rolls 5,3,4,5.
Then
5 = 5 Fail!
4 < 5 Fail!
3 < 4 Fail!
2 < 3 Fail!

I did no damage, what the hell.

>>15358553
Side adventures, eras where there is no hero, basically the little things (or not so little things) instead of heroic quests with divine protection. Majora and Ganon might be gone, but there's still treasure to find, Stalchildren to kill, and goddamn Keese in the rafters.

Of course, the sky's the limit with RPGs.

>>15362445
You missed, basically. Or he blocked it. It depends on if he Dodged or Blocked (|Acrobatics| vs. |Shield|)

>>15362475
I'll probably set at Ganondorfs Return, some time between OoT/WW
(Or make an all-Stalfos campaign. FOR THE GLORY OF IKANA.)

>>15362475
> The party was captured by gerudo warriors and taken back into their castle. Right now they are inside a prison cell looking for a way to escape.
Wait, what do you mean you're not looking? How do you know what's going to happen to you?
What?
No, maybe they don't want to breed with you.
How do you even know that?

.>>15362536
I'd personally love to have a tomb-raiding party. In Ikana.

Hilarityensues.jpg

Or just a normal Termina game. Hyrule's cool, but Termina is steampunk with some of the franchise's best horror.

>>15362537
Gerudo don't have castles...

They have puebo-type buildings and some of the best game music.

>>15362435
>we decided on unopposed attack dice being auto-success, right?
Right, though that could be changed to unopposed attack dice succeeding on 2 or greater if auto-successes prove too overpowering in playtesting. That would make unopposed dice slightly less powerful, but still never any worse than opposed dice -- since defenders win ties, 1 is always a failure for an opposed attack die anyway.

>do unopposed defense rolls cancel successes?
I know this is definitely the case for active defense, but I'm not sure if we ever decided whether unopposed dice on a passive defense roll should cancel successes.

Random idea dump:

Item - Bracelet of Fires: A number of empty orbs you attach to your wrist. When they come in contact with a Source of Fire (Red Fire (normal), Blue Fire (cold, melts Red Ice), Green Fire (defensive), etc.) one of the orbs fills with that fire. You can then spend MP to shoot out the different types of fire.
The Fire Rod with more eventual uses, basically.

Dungeon - Sculpture Tower (name doesn't matter): First room covers all the floors, with passages blocked off by massive blocks of ice/massive fires/whatever.
Players have to bring weapon parts to a construct in the middle of the first room so it can use eye lasers to melt the massive ice/freeze breath to freeze the massive fires/whatever. They might also use the construct as the staircase between floors.
The Boss Key fits into the base/final block of now heavily-armed construct, turning it into the dungeon's boss.

Campaign - The Archive of Time: The players are whisked off to an immense country-sized archive housing every item, monster, puzzle, etc. where evil forces are turning it into the ultimate fortress.
The players have to go around fixing things - for example, combining the Spinner, the Cane of Pacci and the Magnetic Gloves to move a metal box round a certain route by flipping the Spinner track with the Cane of Pacci.
"I can't decide what Legend of Zelda elements I want so I'll include everything": The Campaign, basically.

>>15360984

Most gargantuan bosses only take damage if you attack them in a relatively small area (hands, eye, etc.) which can be represented as a normal-sized target.
At least as far as I remember, anyway.
___

I feel like working on dungeon stuffs again. Maybe because Captcha is "expressing ructlati", not sure.

Would GMs find puzzles easier to track as "if-then" statements?
"If block hammered, then staircase appears."
"If switch hit, then gate opens for 2 rounds."

>>15362729
I think GMs should be able to make their own shorthand notation. The Wiki needs clarity more than confusing tags.
No offense.

>>15362943

None taken; I'm not very good at figuring out what tags other people are having problems with (since I came up with them, they work how I think they should).

I can hazard a guess at some of the problem tags (Switch, Source, Reflect, etc.), but then I have to think of a better way of making it work...
___

I do think tags are the best way to link items, monsters and puzzles together, so I just have to remove all the confusing bits.

...Actually, how would other people link those things together? There could be a better, less confusing method I could be putting my energy into.
___

>tightio Carolina,
That's what Captcha said.

Whelp, we're at 219 posts right now. Any suggestions for the description/tags for the archive?
>(I have horrible imagination when it comes to that.)

>>15364796
Tags: Same as the older ones

Descriptions:
Shit continues to get done. Magic and music are discussed, and races are revisited and expanded. Also some more new artwork.

>>15364827
Done.
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/15334060/

Reminder to anyone that would archive a thread later: unless it is exclusively Drawfaggotry, don't tag it as "Draw"/"Drawfag"/"Drawfriend" or any variation thereof.
Lord Licorice (The guy running sup/tg/) REALLY dislikes drawthreads and autoculls them after a month or so. They take up a lot of space, apparently.

So yeah, someone should download all the threads that have the word "Draw" in them. I think #6-8 or so are the ones.

>>15364904
Wait, sorry. It was just thread 10-11. I'll download them and upload them to mediafire.

>BOOK larken
No captcha, we're still in alpha.

>>15364927
http://www.mediafire.com/?u9a5tdddlyhxr1l
I'll just leave this here in case Thread 10 or 11 get deleted from sup/tg/.

Wow, I sound paranoid.

>>15363683
The problem I see with tags is that some of them describe properties and some of them look like programming code. Having tags like Claw for an item or Undead for an enemy is helpful, bur having tags for things like switches or certain abilities like Split are hard to comprehend.

For switches, you could describe certain things switches can do (open doors, move parts of the dungeon, etc) and then list certain kinds of switches (Crystal switches can be hit by any Weapon; Eye switches must be shot with Arrows, Foot switches must be stepped on or held down with an object, etc). Then GMs can decide what switch to use and what they want it to do.

>>15365096
Suggestion: do what Scribblenauts did and have them color-coordinated. Red Switch opens Red Door and lifts Red Bridge. Blue Arrow Switch opens Blue Door.
The switches wouldn't LITERALLY be red/blue/rainbow, but it's easy to comprehend as shorthand.

>oodistic rounds,
That sounds dangerous, Captcha.

>>15365137
Like that, or they could number them, or use shapes or make a flowchart of what activates what. The GM can write their map however they like. Those ideas could go in a little tip section next to the switch information.

Come to think of it, flowcharts would be a very useful way to map out a Zelda dungeon.

Sketchbump.
http://i.imgur.com/sSDUt.jpg

I'm open for suggestions

>>15365910
A Skulltula hanging by a thread.
A Gerudo (there's only been one drawn already. Racists)
Adventurers in some kind of meeting with Jabun/Jabu-Jabu.

>Offactol VARIOUS
Or anything, really.

Next on the race list. Ritos.

Heres the WIP on a Rito Priestess.

>>15366790
you haven't done any musicians yet :(
looks awesome though

>>15367078

All in due time, besides bards are small potatoes member wise before a cleric (imo). Heres the colored up version, this one's starting to become my personal favorite.

>>15367220
Cute! I'd never considered a black-haired Rito before. I gotta get past these racial stereotypes.

Speaking of, here's a Gerudo scribble.
http://i.imgur.com/IPJEj.jpg

Speaking of Gerudo.

Started sketching up a Gerudo Wardrummer.

>Captcha: Forgaze property

Oh capture you perv you.

>>15367713
Oh yeah? You think youre a better drawfag or something, trying to one-up me like that?

Well how about...
http://i.imgur.com/QgSjN.jpg

...another ReDead.

Nevermind

>>15367748

I wish I could draw that quickly. But nay sir, no ill will to your post, I was working on her before you posted. The people have been crying out for Gerudo, let us make more!

>Locks arms

>>15367781
Yes, let's!
http://i.imgur.com/46OL8.jpg

Hopefully I can do up these scribbles digitally someday. Or if a helpful drawfag volunteers

Last drawing for tonight.
http://i.imgur.com/fDzlH.jpg

We may be due for a new thread soon.

Early morning idea throwout! Came up with a quick name for discussion purposes (first lyrics I heard in the song I was listening to at time of posting). *This is just my opinion*, but I would like to see different playstyles (SnS, Caster, Bard, Toolkit, etc.) actually play different. The obvious advantage is that playing a different way is genuinely a unique experience, but of course complicates the system a bit more. Consider, Evaluate, and Feedback.

Melee fighters acquire different moves as techniques as they go. Offensive maneuvers use Power and Defensive use Courage. Of course, they're almost always of Physical attribute (GM/player dickery).

Ranged characters to me seem to not be quite so simple, the reason being that a bow is a very different weapon than a gun-like weapon. Bows and Thrown should scale their throughput on how much force the character can draw/throw with, and so use Power as their virtue. Crossbows and Guns are more about pure aiming, so they use Wisdom as their virtue. Again, all are almost always Physical (GM/player dickery).

Both go with the usual X = Attribute + Odd skill, Y = Virtue + Even skill, when XkY

Continuing with magic in a minute...

>>15369741

We've seen some debate on how to deal with spells that either succeed or fail vs spells that scale. Also when it comes to magic, I'd think that as someone becomes better at a certain spell, they can do it easier, or more efficiently.

The idea I want to throw out here is to have each spell school be treated like a tech. Some examples would be Fire, Healing, or Telekinesis (obviously a subject to be fleshed out). Odd-numbered skill points would increase the power of the spell (another HP (Heart Piece) of damage for offensive spells, or another +1k0 or +1k1 to rolls or w/e it is). Even-numbered skill points would reduce the MP cost; the amount of reduction would most likely have to be different for each spell school unless we somehow standardize it.

What this means for Magic-oriented characters is that while they can really do anything, they can specialize in a few schools and be really proficient at that. The reason I believe casters need some MP-cost reduction is long fights that require them to perform at high power for a sustained period of time. If they have one school of spells that they are highly proficient in, then they can stick with that for a long time.

Offensive magic would use Power, Defensive magic (Wards, Shields like Nayru's Love, etc) would use Courage, Utility magic (Telekinesis, Teleporting, etc) would use Wisdom.

The Music section is going to take a little longer because I'll most likely be forcing to make up a text-based chart to properly explain what I'm picturing.

>>15369741
>>15369805

Boy, we've got some shit to sort out with Music. Let's get to i/t, g/ents.

A Music-oriented player is playing Music, and real Music isn't (mostly) a quick few notes. A piece of music with real power is a whole song with movement and feeling and expression. In the game, the expression comes out and actually affects the world around the performer. The Music-oriented character, in combat, is playing the instrument and progressively forging a piece to enhance allies or debuff enemies. The playstyle should allow the character to bust out quick snippets for quick situation changes, or in case the character is not purely music-based, but also reward the player meaningfully for piecing together a full song.

I'm building on the Song Names idea from earlier here. Songs will have two Power Words; one is the type of Song (like Ballad or Anthem) and the other is the Subject (Resolve, Concentration, Anger). The Music character begins a Piece with any pairing (let's say, Ballad of Resolve). For this example, let's say we've assigned Ballads to be the restorative Power Word, and Resolve represents HP. So each round that the character *moves into* a Ballad of Resolve, they restore maybe (1+CP(Chain/Combo Points, naming needs work, ideas? Will explain this in a bit) HP to their party (with a roll of XkY, X = Spiritual + Odd Skill #s, Y = (Virtue) + Even Skill #s). The next round, the character must either:

(This is getting long, putting in a seperate post)

>>15369906

A) Take a roll to move into a new Movement, and if successful, change ONE of the Power Words and gain a CP. The CP powers up the music as the character is composing a more complex song. For example, the character playing the Ballad of Resolve might move into a Ballad of Concentration and restore MP to the party, at the base rate plus the bonus it gets from the accrued CP. The CP caps out at the player's |Instrument| skill, both representing how capable the character is at composing and to limit the effectiveness of the music so they're not healing people for half their max health at skill level 2 (or ever, for that matter).

B) End the Piece and either start a new one (dropping the CP but allowing the player to immediately switch focus to match the situation) or take another action they'd use the round to do.

The (hopeful) result is that there is a meaningful reward for just playing and composing a full song but also enable the player to adapt to a sudden change in the situation (with a supposed penalty).

More on the Power Words in a sec. Yes, I know this is getting long; I'm hoping to get the idea reviewed and maybe fleshed out and cleaned up.

>>15369805
>Offensive magic would use Power, Defensive magic (Wards, Shields like Nayru's Love, etc) would use Courage, Utility magic (Telekinesis, Teleporting, etc) would use Wisdom.

I think you have that swapped around. Teleporting (Farore's Wind) is Courage affiliated and Defense (Nayru's Love) is Wisdom affiliated.

>>15369741
I understand where you're coming from with the bows, but I have to take issue all the same. I don't know how everyone else feels, but in my eyes, Power as a Virtue has no physical representation and does not reflect on physical strength. I see it as more of an ideal.

A character who strongly holds the ideals of the virtue of Power wouldn't likely use something like a bow. They would hurl bombs, hoping to overwhelm an opponent with sheer destructive force, or they'd get up close and personal with something big enough to appeal to their 'bigger is better' mentality. The bow would be the weapon of someone calm and collected enough to aim carefully in the heat of battle and hit precisely enough to down their opponent, or patient enough to lie in wait for the right opportunity.

>>15369906
>>15369919

The character learns new expressions as they become more skilled at music and composing. The first skill point allows the player to pick a Song and Subject (so that when starting out, the character isn't just a one-trick pony unless they only took it on the side). After that, Even levels grant a Subject (as well as the +0k1 bonus) and Odd levels grant a Song (as well as the +1k0 bonus). As for flavoring it to the different Virtues, I was thinking to make two Songs per Virtue and go from there. Some groundwork:

Power Songs(offensive):
Canticle - Damage
Chorale - Status Effects

Courage Songs(defensive):
Ballad - Restore
Anthem - Wards/Buffs

Wisdom Songs (utility):
Melody - pursuade, please, |Sway|-related stuff
Hymn - Misc stuff; teleportation, soul-healing, conjuration, etc

>>15369941
You're exactly right, my mistake. Make a mental swap of it in that last post.

>>15369963
Makes sense. Again, just throwing ideas around.

The Wisdom/Courage mixup aside, hopefully I'm not brewing a shitstorm with the whole Music thing.

>>15369996

Follow-up Subject ideas:
Resolve - HP
Concentration - MP
Aptitude - throughput

Hymns will probably just have to be unique. What would a Storm Canticle even do? Hymn of Storms is pretty obvious though.

>>15369906
>>15369919
>>15369996
>>15370034
I like your ideas on music, with the whole chaining things together to get bigger effects. It'll take a lot of work to flesh out, but it feels very appropriate for music.
Also, if I may suggest some terminology: we could divide the "power words" into "Styles" and "Motifs". Styles would be things like Melody, Aria, Bolero, Minuet, etc., while Motifs would be stuff like Sun, Storms, Healing, and so forth.

>>15370344

Styles and Motifs >>> Songs and Subjects

Good thinking.

>>15369906
>>15369919
>>15369963
>>15369996
>>15370034

These are some interesting ideas on music, but I have some reservations about it

The first one is the chaining idea. Its a good idea that more complex songs could possibly take multiple rounds in a combat situation, with multiple rolls involved. But for the player to have to sustain a song for too long would take them out of the fight. Whoever was best at music might be relegated to playing constantly to support his or her friends. I'm still wary of forcing players to specialize to survive in this system, and would rather see adaptable characters. 

The other big concern I have is that categorization/swapping out domains makes songs too generic. If every song is X of Y, and is made of interchangeable pieces, they're no longer special. Songs in the games were exciting because of their uniqueness, and discovering one was a big reward. I guess adaptable characters/specific tools is what I'd rather strive for.

I guess my concern is that although this is a really cool mechanic, it doesn't feel like Zelda.

>>15370642
>I guess my concern is that although this is a really cool mechanic, it doesn't feel like Zelda.

Good point. It would be great for a different game, but it doesn't exactly capture the feel we're going for here.

So what does acharacter need to play music?
An instrument.

And how should the characters get an instrument?
Should they be able to just buy one at a shop?
Should they start out with one?
Should they get them as a reward for a quest?
Is every plain instrument able to play those magical songs or are these instruments magical as well?
How often should an instrument be used, in order to keep it special?

>>15371403
A music-focused character should be able to choose an instrument as part of their starting equipment, just as a swordsman can have a sword and a mage can have one or two basic spells.

As to whether a basic instrument should be able to play more powerful songs...probably not. For that you'd need to acquire a magical instrument, like the Ocarina of Time or the Harp of Ages.

Like any other item, instruments (and songs, for that matter) would be obtained by questing, be that dungeon-delving, in the course of the main quest, or as a side quest. Most items (apart from ammunition and other consumables) would not be purchased in shops.

A thought for magical instruments: If we go with a system of "pick X items to have as your starting equipment", since songs and spells count as "items", perhaps we could allow a character to get a mundane instrument for free if they take a song as part of their starting gear, but if they want a magical one (though not a legendary one, like the OoT) they can get it at cost of one of their starting equipment slots.

>>15371403
A character might be able to use an instrument as a secondary starting item (if that's how we're handling starting gear.) And other instruments could be sold in shops.

I would think that the songs are magical by themselves and work with any instrument, but special songs (Ballad of the Wind Fish, Song of Time) would require magic instruments to have their full effect. Those might only be found as a quest reward.

How many times a song can be used is an issue. Things like the Sun Song could be abused to breeze past encounters with undead, and metagaming players might try to use the Song of Time to farm for rupees.

Spirit Tracks apparently has a Song of Healing that only works once per dungeon. Making some songs only work once per day could be a solution.
Another could be to tie the level of the song to a number of times it can be used. Wind's Requiem, "mount's" Song and similar songs could be used as often as needed. Warp songs and Sun's Song might only work twice a day (not affected by the time skip it causes.) 

>>15371489
Hmm. Perhaps we could simply GIVE players some items for free: clothes, instruments, magical impliments (as in, spells cost, book doesn't) and such?

>rule ergeta
Yes milord.

>>15371581
I think that since you're wielding the instrument, not the song, as opposed to how you wield spells, it should be the other way around; you get an instrument and a free, level 1 song.

Speaking of, if people are alright with the idea of skill prerequisites for songs, does this list seem ok?

Level 1: Plain music (Saria's Song, anything mundane)
Level 2: 3 note magic songs (Wind's Requiem, Zelda's Lullaby)
Level 3: Song of Storms, Command Melody, 
Level 4: All Warp songs
Level 5: Effects of powerful songs (Song of Time), plot-related songs (Wind God's Aria)
Level 6: Big, endgame songs (Oath to Order, Ballad of the Wind Fish)

The list could apply to effects of songs instead of the songs themselves, too. You could know the Song of Time, for instance, and move blocks with it, but you couldn't travel through time until you had a level 5 Music skill.

>>15371572
Talking about *mount's* song.
Should the players get their version of this song for free when they get a mount, or should they need to come up with their own song by themselves and play it in front of their mounts for a certain time period so that they will remember it?

>>15371640
Sooo something like

Song Name
Virtue of song
general type of song, what have you
Level 1 effect
level 2 effect
etc.

Or? Oh, and what about songs that don't need any |Music| at all? The Hawk Call from Twilight Princess, for example. It was just whistling in grass.

Oh, and perhaps that musical system that guy made could be used by GMs; more like a suggestion than anything concrete.

>>15371716
Second thing, probably. Unless the mount is magical/trained, and they get the song from the same magical thingy/trainer.

>>15371718
That could/should only be used for riddles.
The players would need to scan their location and the GM would point out that this type of grass was just randomly growing there.

And smart players may pick the grass up to use it later, but not too late, because the grass may wither after some time.

>>15371718

Yeah, that sounds good.

Song of Time
(flavor text)
Wisdom
Level 3: move blocks
Level 5: turn back/ slow down/ fast forward time.

The hawk/horse grass thing could just be a really easy Music roll, maybe a level 1 or even level 0 requirement to use.

Also, I thought of using the music levels to denote how often the songs could be used, but I'm having some trouble. Level 1-2 songs and maybe level 3 songs could be used whenever, level 4 songs could be used twice or 3 times a day (and include the Sun Song's attack) and level 5-6 songs could be once a day.
Level 3 is the troublesome part, I think. Is it ok to make it unlimited use?

>>15371903
Depends on the effects really.
Suddenly not being able to move blocks would be rather annoying, but another level 3 effect could break the game.

>>15371926
What do you mean by "break the game"?

Level 3 troubles me because it seems to be the right level for slightly more potent/complicated songs than level 2 songs, but it leaves level 4 all alone in having a 2/day restriction.

Maybe I'm trying too hard to make the categories divided up into 3rds.

>>15371903
Have level three be unlimited use, with exceptions noted in the effects.

Oh, and suggestions for nerfing the Sun Song:
-Takes two (or more) actions to play (Perhaps you play the night away? It could work)
-Only stuns undead while outside (Sun won't shine inside)
-Only stuns undead within... 5 squares? Perhaps the sun isn't what stuns them, but the music is? I don't remember how it was in OoT/MM

>>15372084
I'm pretty sure the Sun Song worked indoors in OoT, but a multi-action use and range limitation would be good.

>>15372084
There's a version of it listed here >>15344739 that has most of those features. I think 3 times a day is a decent nerf, since it can still potentially miss and only works on undead.

Having the attack only work out of doors defeats the purpose, since you don't see those kinds of monsters out in the sun.

Also, I think I figured out the stun progression

Stunned: Lose 1 action on your next turn
Dazed: Lose all actions on your next turn
Paralyzed: Lose your actions and you are also Helpless (either you can't make defense rolls at all or all your rolls are treated as 1's.)

How can something to minimalist be such a pain in the ass to draw?

8 down, 2 to go.

>>15372393
>you don't see those kinds of monsters out in the sun.
Well, not under the SUN, as such. Hyrule Field was interesting during the night, however.
Maybe just make the range of the song shorter than the range of the Redeads scream?
And perhaps just make them Dazed for two turns?
Really though, if we want to avoid spam we just need to up the actions needed to play it.

Suggestion: You need to warm up before playing songs (tuning or what not), using one action. After that you can play a song (two actions for Suns Song), and continue playing songs indefinitely.
...It sounded a lot better in my head, but you might have some better idea.

Oh, and what about doing something like they did in PTA? Some stuff can only be used every other turn.

>the ospers
Is that like Espers or something? mitebcool

>>15344739
Song of Healing doesn't refer to literal healing in-game, and we should keep that. Maybe just morale/mental trauma/curses...

>>15344828
Undead are practically a Zelda staple. Redead rape less so.

Come to think of it. Did the Suns Song work on all undead, or was it just redead/gibdos?

>roneduc Marx
wait what

>>15372489
Well, its one action to draw/unsheath an item, and then a double action to play. Is that alright

>>15372628
There's a Song of Healing that heals once per dungeon in Spirit Tracks.

>>15372690
Just checked zeldawiki. Apparently it only works on Redead(s?) and Gibdos.
Presumably it also works on people that are turning into Gibdos.

By the way, what offensive songs do we have? There's that one from Majoras Mask, but the games were rather lacking in that.

>>15372698
Sure why not. I was just throwing ideas out to see what stuck.

>>15372745
Well, you could attack enemies with the hawk in TP so that may count.
Playing songs to call upon various wildlife for help may be a neat idea.

Other than that...
Song of Fireballs
Hymne of Total Devastation.
Song of Kick in the balls.

Well maybe an offensive version of the song of storms. Calling stormclouds that strike the enemy with thunder or maybe a small hurricane. That appears a few turns after the song has been played.

>>15372814
>Enemies and bosses inherently weak to music

>-Digdogger (in The Legend of Zelda, it shrinks when the Recorder is played; bigger variations split into three).
>-River Devil (in The Adventure of Link, it stops obstructing the route to Kasuto when the Recorder is played).
>-ReDead (in Ocarina of Time, the Sun's Song paralyzes it).
>-Gibdo (in Ocarina of Time, the Sun's Song paralyzes it; in Majora's Mask, the Farewell to Gibdos melody keeps them away).
>-Sharp (in Majora's Mask, his curse is lifted with the Song of Storms).
>-Pols Voice (only in Phantom Hourglass, where the player can blow through the mic of the Nintendo DS to stun them. In the Japanese version on The Legend of Zelda, they're vulnerable to sound from the built-in mic of the Famicom).
>-Snurgle (in Spirit Tracks, it's distracted with the sounds of the horn of the Spirit Train).

Aaaand Sharp plays what Zeldawiki calls the Melody of Darkness. I don't know if that is the official name, but it's nasty, unblockable, unstoppable and near-certain death unless the one who plays it... stops playing it.
Speaking of death, when does that occur? The current Hearts system is not particularly conductive to negative HP. (Perhaps just have a Final Fantasy style thing, where the party survives as long as one person survives?)

>>15372745
Song of storms works as an offensive skill against a certain enemy in Majora's Mask, Song of Healing can be nasty against cursed foes/tormented spirit-based enemies. I say we have the Song of Healing/Sun's Song be effective against Poes and such as well. Sure, they were in the day in OOT, but considering just how Bad End the adult timeline was, it's fair to say that's more the exception than the rule.

To be honest, offensive magic is more stuff like Din's Fire...

"Din's March?" maybe? ", "Song of Flames?"

>>15372690
Stalchild's could not stand the daylight, so in theory if the suns song is played, they would retreat as it would be daytime when you encounter them.

>>15372874
Pol's Voices were also insta-killed by the Harp of Ages in Oracle of Ages.

>>15372745
>By the way, what offensive songs do we have?

I'm rather opposed to the idea of having explicitly offensive songs, per se. Songs that are harmful to specific enemies, as a side-effect of the main purpose of the song? Absolutely. Environment-altering songs that can be applied creatively toward combat uses? Sure. Offensive buffs? Possibly.

But no direct blasting stuff, like the music equivalent of Din's Fire or whatever. That really doesn't fit too well with the way things work in the video games.

>>15372916
Stalchildren will literally bury into the ground/die if you play the Sun's Song. Redeads and their cousins just get stunned.

>>15372874
Melody of Darkness could just do Shadow/Evil damage.

>>15372875
Songs shouldn't do big flashy attacks, though. Their effects should be more environmental than outright fireball-shootan.

A song that summons a cyclone or causes preexisting lava/water pools overflow and attack nearby enemies seem to be more appropriate.

>>15372933
there was a song to control Cyclones in wind waker I belive, mechanics wise it's used as a teleport.

>>15372814
> Playing songs to call upon various wildlife for help
GODDESSES NO! The cuccoos, man! Think of the cuccoos! In all seriousness, good idea.

>>15372933
This.

>>15372698
>In the European version of Spirit Tracks, the Song of Healing is mistakenly called the Song of Recovery once played.

Changing the name might stop confusion. And apparently it calls a fairy to link? Perhaps we could change it to simply attracting fairies?

>>15372875
Song of storms worked against Sharp, but that was because it was his brothers song. Aaand it was specifically made to calm him.
The song of healing... To quote Sharp:
>"Hmm? Somehow, my heart is eased. This melody has a serenity to it... And yet... To one of the dead and darkness, like myself, a song like that no longer holds meaning for me." — Sharp (Majora's Mask)
And the Sun's Song did pretty much nothing to poe. Fuck, you learnt it from a poe. It was performed by a poe without harming it.

>>15372933
So less Song of Meteors , more Song of Making Fire Grow Larger At A Faster Rate (Good For Starting Campfires When The Logs Just Won't Burn)?

>>15372956
Call of Cuccoo
- A terrifying song that sows seeds of despair
Double Action
For each success, Cuccoos are attracted to the area as if one had been killed, for a maximum of 500 cuccoos.

...We need rules for the Cuccoo Maffia/ wahtever.

>>15372956
>Playing songs to call upon various wildlife for help
Oh hey, whatcha know.
http://zeldawiki.org/Song_of_Birds

>>15373008
Song of Storms was the same as in OOT, the Sun's Song was written by the brothers while they were still alive, and they were already gone when you played it as their bitterness had dissipated by the time you got there. Poes are created by the bitterness of dead spirits/dark magic, which means they should be fair game for the Sun's Song/Song of Healing. The latter, at least.

Besides, it gives more of a reason to learn them and makes song-based advances useful.

Now the Cuccoo's Call, aka. Hero's Bane...

>BBEG
>sing Cuccoo's Call
>run away and watch BBEG go down

I'm surprised no one worships them as demi-gods or something. They're as powerful as Majora or other baddies...

>>15373062
Cuccos are a proud ancent warrior race, who pride themselves on stocism and humility. ever ready to help a child cross a gap with their mighty wings.

They are belevolent and are wont to attack many of the younger races unless provoked.

but when provoked, they are like avenging angels, striking down from the heavens with furious wrath upon the evil one who has harmed one of their kind.

>>15373062
I was trying for something that sounded like Call of Cthulhu, to be honest.
Oh yeah,
>Cuccoos target the offending person
>everyone else is just collateral damage
Then again, it could work out like a great Explosive Runes trap on the BBEG.
>Have a notebook
>Inside is the Song that will End the World
>Actually Call of Cuccoos, but BBEG doesn't now this

>>15373097
Soo Oocca[sic] aren't actually the Ancient Race? The REAL precursors are the Cuccoos?
Sweet.

Cuccoo
Type-Beast/Precursor
Life: 4H
Mass: 1
Speed: 2 (Fly 8) (See: Minish Cap, and That Fucking Sidequest)
Peck: 4k3 1/4H Range 1
Defense: 4k3
Special: Flyby Attack, Call in the Family

Call in the Family: When a cuccoo reaches half health (or is killed), 4d6 additional cuccoos appear, hellbent on revenge. These additional monsters do not have Call in the Family as a special.

(I'm kind of annoyed that we can't use d100. Should we have them For GM Use Only?)

>>15373097
Some flocks even take farmers as their human acolytes, blessing them with gifts of their sacred eggs in exchange for offerings of straw and fodder.

Many a burglar has lived long enough to regret breaking into the barns or homes of these same famers.

This one went far more smoother then I thought.

All thats left is the Twili, but I cant think of a good job that I haven't drawn so far.

What class would you suggest for a female Twili?

>>15373201
Might make an interesting cult.

Should we have a default prayer song? We don't see a lot of worship going on in Zelda, but there's temples and physical deities everywhere. Maybe a writefag could try and write up a description of Hyrulean religion.

>HA officed
I wouldn't wish officing on anyone, Captcha. Don't be cruel.

>>15373201
Woudl be better.
I can already see the group launching a cuccoo at an enemy horde, then fire an arrow at it, lean back and enjoy the view.

Also there could be a magic item called the Holy Cuccoo Granade.
When launched it releases a cry that sounds similiar to a cuccoo's cry for help and summons a horde of cuccoos.

Just gotta say, my friend and I have been following this for the past few days, and we are supremely excited to see where this goes.

Keep it up, /tg/

>>15373607
What deities do we have again?
The Three Goddesses
The Four Guardian Spirits
The Windfish
That Fish from Spirit Tracks
Jabu-Jabu (Does he count?)
The Great Faires (Maybe)
The Four Giants
Deku Tree and Maku Tree

Then there is that bird we often see on shields and clothes that hasn't been introduced yet (Maybe in SS?)

I imagine a female Twili would be either a Necromancer or a rogueish archetype.

Something shadowy.

>>15373601
Sorceress? We know virtually nothing about them.

>>15373652
Of course he counts. Jabun's a bro.
I was just wondering about the Rito priestess drawn earlier. Since the gods and spirits don't confer divine powers a la D&D, I guess that their faith doesn't have a mechanical impact on a religious character.

Also some combat song ideas.

Song of Embers
>extinguishes or enfames fires, can attack foes next to a fire source
Melody of Tides
>does that pool attack mentioned earlier, at high levels can change the water level in a dungeon (limited uses per day)
Stone Beat
>shakes the ground, makes enemies unstable, can reveal secrets behind special rocks or rockslides

Better name ideas are welcome.

>>15373870
The Stone Beat seems fitting for the goron drums.

Been away from this for awhile, seems to be coming along nicely. As a part-time writefag, I could contribute by adding some fluffed-out descriptions of things to the wiki. Is there anything in particular we'd like to see fluffed or described with higher priority? I was thinking I'd start with races. Some, like the Rito and Korok, will have to be slightly altered from canon to fit into a unified setting.

Uh-uh-uh!

How about we make the different instrument types belong to different element groups, so that only a certain kind of instrument can bring out the full potential of a song.

Like the ocarina could be a Wind type.
The goron drums are Fire/Earth
A harp could be Water.

Or maybe there are different types of the same instrument fire/wind/water harp and so on.

>>15373950
I don't know about that. Across the games, any instrument seems universally capable of performing a wide variety of magical songs to full effect. It's the music and the will of the user that's important.

>>15373945
If we're doing an unified setting.
We could jsut say that some races are only available under certain circumstances, like the Kokiri and the Koro's can't be played at the same time.
But that's just my idea.
The best thing would be just to describe what is already known about them and keep the specific stuff for a later time.

Go for a Twili that's hiding in someones shadow. They tend to do that outside of Twilight. (Have you made a back-stabby guy yet?)

>>15373652
Jabu-Jabu/Deku Tree/ Four Giants seem to be on roughly the same level.
The Great Fairies are under the Fairy Queen. No clue on Power Level, but I don't think they're worshiped by non-fairies.
(Fairy PC race? As in a big one? Nah.)
The Windfish... He dreamt an island, but seams to be obscure outside it. Unless he's the Ocean King from Phantom Hourglass... Who is also a whale. Fuck, there are too many dieties.

And that's not even including Majora, Fierce Diety or the Oocca(precursors that created the Hylians, huh?).

>>15373607
Well, the Goddesses created the world and such, created the Light Spirits after the Dark Tribe did something (So they're still active), and maaaaybe wrecked Ikana if some theories are right.

The others seem to act more like gods for their individual people, but aren't quite on the same level. Hrm.

>>15373870
>Song of Embers
Inferno's Requiem? Alludes to both enflaming (inferno) and extinguising (Requiem). Or Rhapsody of Embers or something.

>Melody of Tides
Should the standard low-level effect be changing the tide in oceans? It might work if you have a dungeon connected to the ocean...

Perhaps Moon's Aria for the Melody of Tides? Tides have everything to do with the moon, after all.

>Stone Beat
It's an awesome name, but seems to lack... something. I don't know what.

>names
What about naming them after various styles of music? Aria, Bolero, Requiem, etc.

>>15373945
...We're not really looking for a unified setting, really. But since you seem to have answered the call for writefags: Dieties. Religion and what not.
>Maybe a writefag could try and write up a description of Hyrulean religion.

>>15373950
Perhaps just use the Virtues? You'll have a hard time playing a thing meant for drums on a flute, for example.

>>15373870

Different names?

>Song of Embers
Din's Melody
Song of Scorching

>Melody of Tides
Song of Typhoons

>Stone Beat
Song of Sharpstone
Earth's Falsetto

>>15373972

Yeah, made a Rouge Deku Scrub

>>15373972

Heres a list of Musical Terms one can use for naming songs.

http://www.classicalworks.com/html/glossary.html

>>15373950

I think that kinds of affinities should be tied entirely to the song, not the instrument, a character should be able to choose the instrument he prefers to play every song we come up with, otherwise we would be forcing a character to go carrying lots of different instruments in order to be able to play different songs and that sucks. If i carry a violin i should be able to play ANY aong as long as i have enough skill. In the other hand, i understand needing more powerful or legendary instruments to be able to play some Special songs but thats it.

Also captcha said:

Wileding Bushido

There is a church in ALttP, which means that the people meet on certain days to pray to/worship/thank the gods. There was also a priest, which means they have spiritual leaders (Somewhat).
I don't think there are many atheits in hyrule, but who knows.

>Song of Clarity
Maybe shows a hidden path, blows fog away, I like the name.
>Bolero of Stone
Gives a power boost to allies.
>Hymn of Chastity
Cures a curse.

Here's a convenient list of gods and other powerful entities: http://www.zeldawiki.org/Goddess

Do we want to work with that, or should we change some of it?

>>15374087
>The Goddess of Time, mentioned briefly in Majora's Mask.
Now that's Nayru.

>The Desert Colossus is the Goddess of Sand and the guardian of the Gerudo.
We don't really know if that is a real god, or just something the gerudo made up.

>Jabun is the Sea Spirit, and likely guardian of the Fishmen.
>Lord Jabu-Jabu is the Water Spirit and god of the Sea Zora.
Probably the same dude.

I'm going to start up a playtest campaign soon, and I just realized something. Based on our current Mass vs. Movement scale for the races, overland travel for a party becomes a bit of a concern. Does everybody have to move as slow as the party Goron? It could take weeks to get somewhere it would take a party of Deku Scrubs a few days to reach, if overland speed is derived directly from the Mass/Movement numbers.

My suggestion is to normalize overland movement speeds. This requires explicitly stating that the Movement values only apply in combat or other round-by-round situations. A Goron can build up momentum after a while and keep a steady pace, and a Korok can only flit around at high speed briefly before tiring him/herself out. This leaves us with two options:
1) Overland travel is at the same speed regardless of the Mass/Movement values of the travelers.
2) Overland travel speed is based on Mass Category (which needs defining), with smaller mass categories moving slightly quicker overland than heavier categories, but still much closer to one another than a direct derivative of Mass and Movement.

>>15374161
To be honest.
Why bother with movement and mass when nothing is happening, except for walking?
So I'll vote for option 1).

>>15374161
The Goron can rooooooooooll.

>Average should be 'bout 5, I assume

>>15374161
Gorons could roll at a leisurely pace overland if need be, so it might not be as complicated as it could be.

>>15374161
This might be a more complicated approach, but it might work:

Overland movement has a base speed of X.
For every party member below average Mass, it's a +1 to the Overland Speed.
For every party member above average Mass, it's a -1 to the Overland Speed.

>>15374161

Pls, publish that campaign so other groups can play it too. It will be the first campaign ever for this system, you definitely share it.

How will the items be carried?
Does everyone have a magic bag like Link or is it going to be more realistic?

>>15374216
I will most definitely be sharing the campaign as it unfolds. Should be fairly short and simple, since I want to finish over summer.

>>15374209
I'd prefer something like overland speed to not involve math, and just be a chart reference at most. I'll try fleshing out the mass categories, basing the overland speed on that, and post both here for review.

>>15374245
Well. The big question is:
>Should Armor/Iron Boots increase Mass when not worn?

>inb4 Goron has 10 Knuckle Suits and has 27 Mass

>>15374245
A wizard did it. Only items currently equipped would affect mass.

Do we need a new thread?

Mass Categories

Miniscule (<2 Mass): Forced movement, such as from Knockback or other abilities, is tripled. -0k2 penalty to Physical|Power checks to lift or move heavy objects.
Light (2-3 Mass): Forced movement, such as from Knockback or other abilities, is doubled. -0k1 penalty to Physical|Power checks to lift or move heavy objects.
Medium (4-6 Mass): No special game effects.
Heavy (7-9 Mass): Forced movement, such as from Knockback or other abilities, is halved. +0k1 bonus to Physical|Power checks to lift or move heavy objects.
Giant (10+ Mass): Forced movement, such as from Knockback or other abilities, is reduced to 1/4. +0k2 bonus to Physical|Power checks to lift or move heavy objects.

Mass of Player Characters normally only ranges from 2-9, with only monsters and other creatures fitting into the Miniscule or Giant categories.

Additional Mass from armor does not increase your Mass Category.

When wearing heavy armor, your mass category is treated as 1 higher for the purposes of forced movement.

>>15374466
Overland Movement
While traveling overland, a party's speed is based on the Mass Category of their largest member (unless they want to leave that person behind and let them catch up later).

M. Category Per Day Per Hour Per Minute
Light 35 miles 3.5 miles 350 ft.
Medium 30 miles 3 miles 300 ft.
Heavy 25 miles 2.5 miles 250 ft.

(I basically just ripped off the 4E D&D numbers for the chart)

>>15374464
Looks like. Somebody archive this one and link to it in the wiki, please.

Were any thoughts put into the possible max. age for the different races till now?

>>15374466
Can we make it so knockback effects gust get flat modifiers, like an extra square instead of double?

>>15374481
Balls! Here's a hopefully fixed version of the chart:

M. Category----Per Day----Per Hour----Per Minute
Light------------35 miles----3.5 miles----350 ft.
Medium--------30 miles----3 miles------300 ft.
Heavy----------25 miles----2.5 miles----250 ft.

>>15374510
I like that idea better. How about 1 more/fewer space for each mass category away from medium? So for Light it's 1 more, for Heavy it's 1 less. Or should we do 2 spaces per category away from medium?

>>15374529
Depends on who knock who back.
If a lightweight gets knocked around by a giant then it will be knocked back like a punching bag.

>>15374529
Yep, that's what was originally in place.

Guys, it feels like we got a lot done. We ought to compile what we have onto the wiki so it's easily accessable .

>>15374571
Okay, I'll add the stuff I just worked on, if that's alright. I will also include >>15374545.
I can be changed later, but I kind of like it in there. I'm gonna hold off on more postings until the next thread.

I know its a copout to draw one in robes, but a Twili Wizard just works far too well.

>>15374646
From the sketch it's a bit hard to see.
Is he going to look more like Sexy Midna or Zant?

Welp, 331 posts and autosage.
Good job everyone!
Who wants to make the next thread?

>Susiti Overview
Entirely related! Well done, Captcha!

>>15374818
Wish I could, but I can't.

I hope whoever does includes some of the cool art from this thread in the opening posts. That seems to attract people as well.

>>15374997
I'd do it but it would just end up being a copypaste of this threads intro.
I wish I was better at summarizing things.

I'll just leave this here as the last post before someone makes a new thread.

>>15375291

I like your art a lot, i think it fits great to the system, the only thing that looks weird to me is the goron but nevermind me. The sheikah is my favorite, it came up very nicely.

>>15375291
The Gorons back is rather flat, shading-wise, but otherwise it's awesome.

>>15375389

Yeah, the gorons shoulders should be bulkier, the torso should be more round and the legs should be much shorter, i have never seen a long legged goron, the size is just right though.

Also, i have never seen gorons with hair in their shoulders, as long as i remember they grow rocky formations in their back and shoulders, not hair.

>>15375493
I've never seen Gorons with any hair whatsoever, but I guess that's artistic license.

Rock hair/mohawks seems common though.

I'm fine if the new thread copypastes the intro to this one, as long as it gets made.

The next thread should also have this >>15375291 as Op Pic.

DUPLICATE FILE ENTRY DETECTED

>>15375622
>>15375622
NEW THREAD
>>15375622
>>15375622